View Full Version : Internet relationships
rodeosweetheart
2-2-15, 1:50pm
Thanks to all who replied; it was not my intention to start more strife!
No Simple F'ers are gonna run me off!
It's my goal to be the last Simple Liver Standing.
Just as with Facebook, given there is an option to "ignore" posts, hopefully people won't throw the baby out with the bathwater and flee because of one or two individuals.
On Facebook I've blocked the posts of only one person--a friend. I don't want to unfriend her, because she is my friend and I've spent lots of very pleasant dinners with her when we worked together. But she is a flaming liberal, and very, very narrow-minded in that regard, and her posts are often filled with nastiness towards the other POV. Even when I agreed with her, I found her posts just too irritating and mean.
If I felt attacked here, I would use the ignore feature rather than leave, but I have not felt attacked at all. I enjoy *everyone's* posts--including the ones that tend to be controversial. No one here has come close to making me feel like I did when I blocked my friend on Facebook.
I think it's a great question, though.
Edited to add: I understand if others do get upset with some posts/posters. I am just not sensitive to that kind of thing--maybe because our family (especially the four men) kids around a lot in the name of "b*ll-bustin'" and we all laugh it off, so I just think that some of the posts are a form of that and it's easy for me to laugh them off.
No Simple F'ers are gonna run me off!
It's my goal to be the last Simple Liver Standing.
Not if I beat you first! ;)
LIKE
Does there come a point where you just say enough, I am leaving, if the posts are unpleasant and contentious, or there is baiting or bullying present? Do any of you find the existence of baiting and bullying to be disturbing at a personal level, to make one feel unsafe if it happens in a forum?
Yes.
Way back when, I learned on forum boards not to talk money or children/pets unless really asked. Just two topics I stay clear of. I was on an investing board one time that was so brutal it was hard to get info. The very worse one I was on for many years was a cat board. Whew the claws would come out =^..^= I left both for those reasons. A frugal board I used to visit often, seldom now, one poster basically only posts in the chatter and it is about political stuff to just get people going. I guess being older I mellowed, I just don't open posts from posters I know I won't understand, relate to or have anything to add.
I really just enjoy reading about thoughts and views people have.
I hope it is the anonymity of forums that allows individuals to be mean and or insensitive. I can't imagine that people would sit across from each other at the table and say the awful things I have read on forums. If something upsets me on a forum, I stew a minute or two and forget about it so NO I wouldn't leave if the value exceeds the noise. I just get bored with it then.
awakenedsoul
2-2-15, 5:32pm
rodeosweetheart,
Yes. I personally am sickened by the type of behavior you described. I don't contribute financially or post much at all when this type of thing is allowed and/or excused.
Your post was excellent. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way. It says exactly what I have been feeling on this forum recently. Thank you for articulating it so well.
I've had the same thought as you, pinkytoe...recently I read of a local newspaper which made the decision to turn off its comments feature on their online content. They were becoming contentious, name-calling, vitriolic, and hateful. There were objections, as you can imagine. Their response was that yes, you their readers do have rights of free speech, but they didn't have an obligation to provide the channel for them.
The comments at the bottom of the articles in news papers online, sometimes give the most info. If there is an incident happening, the locals generally gives more info then a brief press release. But yes many are just chronic hecklers.
I keep what is worth keeping like grains of wheat at harvest and simply let the chaff blow away. I am not responsible for others' thoughts and behaviours, just my own.
ApatheticNoMore
2-2-15, 8:10pm
I originally thought the thread title was about romantic relationships that are primarily online (long distance usually obviously) and I just thought "no ..... that doesn't work" :laff:
So I guess my question is, do you all think about this in a similar way, or do you just write off unpleasantness as part of the world of Internet forums.
to some degree as I've been part of some pretty brutal forums before
Does there come a point where you just say enough, I am leaving, if the posts are unpleasant and contentious, or there is baiting or bullying present?
I've considered it at times (no not in the last week in case anyone is super sensitive about causing offense - you probably didn't). But anyway, it's like why am I am I even getting myself in situations where I get all upset about stuff on the internet (and I can get fairly upset), talk about "not worth it". So I've though of just quietly dropping out at times.
Do any of you find the existence of baiting and bullying to be disturbing at a personal level, to make one feel unsafe if it happens in a forum?
disturbing yea, I wouldn't tend to use the term unsafe easily, though at times I have had the thought (as in what if these people are that crazed in real life?)
I personally am sickened by the type of behavior you described. I don't contribute financially or post much at all when this type of thing is allowed and/or excused.
Interestingly enough, there are only about 7 financial contributors to the forums and besides me, at least 3 of those are regularly reminded that their posts are ignored. I suppose I could ban them and then walk away myself, but then where would people hang out?
iris lilies
2-2-15, 11:48pm
OP, I will offer support in that you may feel however it is that you feel. I support you in speaking up for your feelings.
But also, I encourage you to place on IGNORE those who bug you, and move on. Now would be a good time to remind all that quoting offending posts may not be a good idea because some want to ignore those posts.
The world has a variety of people in it and we can't control who is out there and what they speak of. And if, in the end their presence is too pervasive, I guess that we need to move on.
Some years ago I gave up on a forum that I loved, a dog forum. I left due to unrelenting cheerfulness! haha. It is true. There was one poster whose presence was so pervasive that he dominated the forum. He was a very nice person who had rescued a bulldog. He posted, multiple times weekly, photo links to his dog, positive, photos. He loved that dog! And then he got another dog and the posts doubled. And THEN the first dog died and we were bombarded with Memorial Angel Websites about the first dog. Oh my, it was relentless. He was nice, but his posts drove me batty because they were not interesting or artistic. And then he got a cat, and the posts were out of control! (all of his pets were lucky and well cared for.)
Anyway, I left the website and it died out. But that was old software that predated forum software, so that was part of its demise.
:thankyou:Yes, I completely, wholly, and totally can personally empathize very much with the OP, due to my own experiences with being bullied, harassed, abused, threatened, annoyed, intimidated, tyrannized, oppressed, brow-beaten, humiliated, put-upon, spat-upon, discriminated against, castigated, chided, censured, lied-to, cheated, short-changed, Cussed, discussed, given the run-around, inconvenienced, unappreciated, treated with indifference, ignored, ridiculed, complained-about, neglected, hated, rejected, victimized, plagued, harmed, yelled-at, haunted, bedeviled, chastised, undercompensated, overworked(not very often, though), downtrodden, scapegoated, terrorized, interrogated, stalked, criticized, mocked, shunned, stereotyped, reprimanded, disregarded, falsely-accused, subjected to callous indifference, chased by dogs, scratched by cats, assaulted, derided, hotlined, ripped-off, scorned, defiled, investigated, violated, underrated, overlooked, toyed-with, guns pointed at me, emotionally stressed, passed-over, belittled, and treated unjustly. There's more, but I must take a break.....be back after a littlebittybit.......Hope that helps you some.....(to be continued)......
So I guess my question is, do you all think about this in a similar way, or do you just write off unpleasantness as part of the world of Internet forums
Does there come a point where you just say enough, I am leaving, if the posts are unpleasant and contentious, or there is baiting or bullying present? Do any of you find the existence of baiting and bullying to be disturbing at a personal level, to make one feel unsafe if it happens in a forum?
I wrote my initial response as I was running out of the house yesterday & it was the first smart-alecky thing that popped into my mind & off my fingers onto the keyboard.... which I would also do IRL, so I can't blame hiding behind a keyboard.
I stand behind it though. Little to nothing would make me stop checking in here to see what's going on. I genuinely enjoy seeing what folks here are up to.
For me most things come down to pain/pleasure equation.
I think that's what drew me to YMOYL - trying to translate a seemingly subjective idea (contentment) into quantitative elements (life energy).
Now I have to admit, if posting all the time made me truly unhappy and I really wasn't receiving useful feedback - I would have to give writing on the board a rest for a while.
I completely expect us to debate, disagree, argue and sometimes that is unpleasant. I think guerrilla warfare tactics on an Internet chat board with strangers that kind-of-sort-of trust each other is lame and reflect poorly on that person.
I would engage more in spicy threads, but I really am not long on time these days and I like to see a good scuffle all the way through.
I don't get the unsafe part, unless one you all are on my doorstep wanting to take me to task for my baggie drying method.
God gifted us with words to use them.
Speak out plain and clear.
ETA: Only a few times have I posted very personal things that I was seeking input on. Because I was just that desperate. But I literally could NOT take strangers' feedback that didn't know all sides of what I was saying -- especially when I didn't agree with the life choices they communicated here on the board. I couldn't take the heat, so I don't do it. It just bothered me to have flippant remarks about a subject so painful to me. Lesson learned. And this was a long time ago and a different cast of characters.
It just seems like a shame when forums deteriorate and become an unpleasant place to post, that one does not want to read responses for fear that one will feel attacked, either for how they posted or what they posted. So do the rest of you feel any of this sadness or discomfort when threads go awry?
Most of my emotions just beeline it straight to anger.
And yes, it does tick me off when a seemingly good conversation, even if it's not one I'm interested in or even agree with for that matter, becomes overshadowed by hogwash.
And I guess hogwash may be in the eye of the beholder, but for the most part we are all grownups and know when people are being unkind without provocation.
Member retention is a very valid concern.
As is the point that Alan makes about financial commitment to the nuts & bolts upkeep of the board.
Unless all of us want to go over as a group to MMM and make our own coffee klatsch forum so we can really get 'face punched' on a regular basis, I think we need to speak out as we see fit to egregious behavior.
I like to spend time here because we are not founded on 'face punching' and we just let everyone get things out of their own systems in their own ways.
I just "write off unpleasantness as part of the world".....period. You are out of the Womb, now; accept it. And, be grateful for(but not gushingly effusive to) those few that treat you halfway decent. See? Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
I just "write off unpleasantness as part of the world".....period. And, be grateful for(but not gushingly effusive to) those that treat you halfway decent.
And so Packy am I to be grateful for your halfway decency toward me?
Speak to me straight and clear.
Packy, If you have a problem with me, MtnLaurel, this thread is the time for it to occur.
This is our meeting behind the gym after school.
I will never be 'ignoring you' with whatever button that is (as if I could figure that out).... because when you are really you, the real you - I totally enjoy what you bring to the table. Like the rolling foam exercise thread or learning about your bike riding. Plus you are funny, when you use your gift for good.
But I am over your Prankster a.k.a. Packster crap with me.
You are hitting a nerve with me thus making me feel 'unsafe' or whatever (as long as 'unsafe' is code for ticked off) and I'm not gonna have it- this is my fun, happy place and it will remain as such for me.
And yes, I do not adhere to Strunk and White on internet forums... I also overuse parentheses and the floating dot, dot, dots.
You are out of the Womb, now; accept it. .... Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
Explain this to me?
Please make changes to your original posts by denoting Edits after original post with 'ETA'
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. Are you saying that 4 of the financial contributors are "regularly reminded that their posts are ignored"?
Yes, one of the participants in this thread regularly points out that certain people's posts are ignored and, at least in my case, has sent me private messages to make sure I know that I'm on the list. I find it interesting that those on the ignore list are the very people who enable the forums to remain open.
So in effect, are you saying that if you banned posters who are receiving the most complaints, the forum would fold financially?
There are actually only one or two posters that a very small group of members routinely complain about and a few others that the same small group loves to dis-like. As I mentioned above, if that small group of people who wish to control who can post and what they say had their way, the forums would lose better than half of it's financial support. Now, I have mentioned previously that in the absence of member contributions I would probably foot all the expenses myself just to keep the site running, so I wouldn't worry too much about that if I were you. Our members will always be able to complain about others for free. ;)
I never bring up finances on the forum because I don't want people to feel pressured to contribute and only mention it in this thread in response to the irony of someone who publicly admits not supporting the site complaining about those few who do.
Can you post an address where one could send a check to support the forum? (Don't do paypal for things like this, only mail.)
No, I'm sorry, we are not a business or a non-profit with bank accounts. For tax purposes we're more of a hobby group with relatively small fixed expenses which accepts donations for those expenses only. The easiest way to collect those donations and keep them separate from personal accounts is through Paypal. Those who prefer not to use that service, for whatever reason, can take comfort in the fact that there are other ways to support a community forum. Participation is the key.
I am not offended by anything on line. If I don't like it, I just scroll by.
ToomuchStuff
2-3-15, 1:42pm
I also wish there was a mail way to send money to the forum. (I've been anti Paypal since it was forced on the users by Ebay, due to Postal money orders being safe (had one incident only and when Postal police handle things....), and do to my loss of choice of acceptable payments (I don't take plastic), as well as their last update that I saw, where they wanted the rights of a bank, without the regulated responsibilities.
The ignore function, sometimes works, as long as the person isn't a moderator. We had that issue here, with a mod calling us racist (name calling and got away with it.), without evidence, just opinion, on something that I have stated is subjective and loaded to begin with.
Other people probably support the forum, just to cause drama. I have a LEO relative who does that stuff everyday. I hear about all the 15 year old acting, drama in his unit as people pull pranks on one another (liquid ass, as a recent example) With the exception of quotes, you just don't see their f me posts. That is the same tatic that the news uses to keep people watching. Create drama and people will tune in both to watch or to get angry at. I try not to participate, as I don't need any of their drama in my life, I have my own. This is a place to learn, relax and try to exchange idea's in an adult, non confrontational matter. There are things that have been discussed here, that I do not agree or deal with/live with as there are in life. The difference is when people try to be in your face about it, IMHO. They act the same as Westboro church (I dealt with them when my bosses niece, fiance came back from the war in a box).
I haven't been here much lately and I wonder if the nastiness is part of that? Maybe just life changes. Anyway, I just checked in and this thread was at the top of what's new and Alan's note reminded me that it is the new year. I support the forums not necessarily for what they are now but for what they have been for me in the past....a light at the end of a long, dark hole that said, yes, you can live a different way, and no, you are not going to be totally alone in doing it.
That was long before 2008 when frugality became cool.
Regarding the OP, I think I just opt away....some people who are touchy...I skip their threads and some people who are aggressive...I skip their responses and just avoid public policy entirely. Mostly I am interested in how people manage their everyday needs and households and that stuff (except for the obvious....i.e. salad spinner!) tends to NOT generate a whole pile of conflict.
Anyway, I am glad you guys are here and maybe I should check in more often. If only I were being more frugal...I might feel less fraudulent!
The ignore function, sometimes works, as long as the person isn't a moderator. We had that issue here, with a mod calling us racist (name calling and got away with it.), without evidence, just opinion, on something that I have stated is subjective and loaded to begin with.
Just as an FYI, that mod was a carry-over from the old regime and is no longer here as a direct result of the activity you mention, so I'm not sure how she "got away with it".
ToomuchStuff
2-3-15, 4:46pm
Just as an FYI, that mod was a carry-over from the old regime and is no longer here as a direct result of the activity you mention, so I'm not sure how she "got away with it".
She may have lost the moderator title or may have given it up, I don't know that: (one example from the time frame) http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?9830-Dumbing-down-of-university-courses/page3&highlight=redfox Then she did the Ignorant Dolt comment. It wasn't until she didn't like peoples views and responses of her financial situation that she left (not a direct result), here: http://www.simplelivingforum.net/sho...l=1#post171323 (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?9943-Pay-down-mortgage-or-save-for-retirement&p=171323&viewfull=1#post171323) So I think your combining the events.
She may have lost the moderator title or may have given it up, I don't know that: (one example from the time frame) http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?9830-Dumbing-down-of-university-courses/page3&highlight=redfox Then she did the Ignorant Dolt comment. It wasn't until she didn't like peoples views and responses of her financial situation that she left (not a direct result), here: http://www.simplelivingforum.net/sho...l=1#post171323 (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?9943-Pay-down-mortgage-or-save-for-retirement&p=171323&viewfull=1#post171323) So I think your combining the events.You're right, I'd forgotten about the Ignorant Dolt incident. What I remember most is the discussions about her comments on the moderator forum and the PM's exchanged with her. We try not to air our dirty linen in public.:|(
Gardenarian
2-3-15, 5:32pm
I try to ignore annoyances, here and in IRL, but it's easier said than done.
As things get less friendly people are certainly less apt to come here, whether it is a conscious decision or not. This is supposed to be fun, right? Who wants to listen to a bunch of old cranks?
I have found myself clicking over here less and less, not because of any particular person or persons, but because we are now below critical mass. We've had a some newcomers, but few stick around. I'm an old crank myself, and even I find it hard going.
I'll stick my neck out and say that I dislike the rehashing of old squabbles (particularly about members who are no longer here.) These differences in opinion seem quite minor to me and I can't understand why they have to be dragged out and gone over again and again.
I would like this to be a healthy and growing community. It doesn't seem like we are on that path.
Teacher Terry
2-3-15, 5:38pm
I just stop following a specific thread if I get annoyed but do not feel unsafe since I don't think anyone can hunt me down. On MM some threads start out fine but then get nasty & then I quit reading them. I don't see it as any big deal.
A discussion board like this, is by it's very nature, going to be having turnover--lots of it. If you are posting personal opinions about just anything on your mind on a daily basis, it makes you vulnerable to criticism. It's a micro-community, where some of the aggressive, like-minded people decide to run off someone that is outside their circle. Some of the people try to be very lawyer-like, intellectual,and dissect every statement, to come up with some meaning. They go so far as to critique your punctuation. Other people are strictly emotional creatures, hypersensitive, and easily offended. But with both types: Anything you say, can be interpreted negatively, and used against you. See? People will come and go, but the participation doesn't increase. You've got hundreds of registered users, but a couple dozen participants. One reason is, is that there is too much stuff discussed that is not germane to the voluntary simplicity lifestyle. I believe the content, the subject matter, really needs to be um, simpler. Downsized. Ha. I think you actually have some people here that are In-voluntarily living simply, who are upset because they aren't living extravagantly! Well, aren't they? That's my littlebittyopinion. So, an interest board really has to keep focused on the Interest, rather than the complexities and problems of the participants about every single issue in their lives. It isn't about furthering a sociopolitical agenda, either, outside of how best to cope with social change, and public policy that affects us, and how-to live within your means and be satisfied, and especially, being able to do so after you are past your peak earning years. <I say that instead of "retire", because you really should not retire, in the sense that still being productive in some way IS living. I've attempted to draw people out on "what kind of music do you like" in a very provocative way, and gotten very few responses. Why is it relevant? It was to see how you listen to music, what genre, and by what media. My opinion is, one way people really waste their money, (while a relative few entertainers become extremely wealthy), is attending high-profile arena concerts of Iconic Performers. . It's really more an indicator of conspicuous consumption and the fanatical behavior of being in a crowd, than listening to music. I know of hard-working people who don't have $ to waste, but wear concert attendance like a badge of honor. Same with being a stadium Sports Fan. One lady I worked with, went through bankruptcy,changed jobs, got divorced, then starts whining that she needs to give up her two cats, that she's had for years, because she can't afford them, anymore. So, one of them that has medical issues and requires medicine, she has put down. I finally step in, & take the other one, and give it a home. It joins several others I have that were in dire circumstances when I found them. But, then I see that that same person is attending KC Chiefs' Games on a regular basis and bragging about it, going out to eat, trading-up cars, has salon hair, is dressing for success, this kind of thing. She, needed to simplify, and not treat her pets as disposable. But, she'll never "get it". To her, life is all about the appearance of "Living Large". Her values are wrong. The things I tend to talk about are symptomatic of that type of person. That is why I get silly about people that come on here, and want to share about their luxury vacation. One in which they were catered to, provided for, and the only thing they "did" was consume, for several times their usual weekly cash expenditure. If you need a vacation, by all means take one. But, sitting on an airplane for hours and hours is not relaxing, and you will not be a better person for having done so. You'll Just have less money than before, and be fatter and older. See? Another thing is, threads have gone and on and on and on here, that are just "pity parties" about unsolvable personal issues. I don't think that they will ever "get it", either. Everything is all someone elses' fault, especially someone like littlebittymee. See? Or, an extended discussion of some stoopid, improbable mooovvee plot or Tee-vee show, that goes on for weeks and weeks and weeks. So, Okay-- watch some tee-vee, go to a movie--occasionally. But, that stuff isn't the epicenter of voluntary simplicity, or your life. Well is it? I just figure that t some of the troubled people we have who express their dissatisfaction with their lives, or with what I, or anyone else says here, to the point of emotional distress, should join a local support group to achieve peace of mind. They may need expert help resolve their relationship issues, their family problems, or to meet up (only)with like-minded people who want to deal with(for example) feminist issues, partisan politics, etc.,or whatever. And for gads sakes, they should stop splitting hairs and being overly analytical about what people say, here. See? In summation, my fellow Americans: I have attempted to give an explanation for my motives for my zany "Ink Blot Test" posts, and dropping my infamous, terrifying, littlebitty thread-killer bombs(figuratively speaking), that I am so notorious for. But, unfortunately, some of them Red Adair himself could not extinguish. Ha. How do you like that? No need to answer that question. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
But, that stuff isn't the epicenter of voluntary simplicity, or your life.
Packy, I'm seeing a connection between the other thread you posted about nostalgia for "the way things were" on this board, and your post. I'm seeing a lot of frustration about having gotten away from how to help and support people who are sincere about voluntary simplicity, and who have chosen that lifestyle with a cheerful heart.
I would agree that we are not as voluntary-simplicity-focused as we were, and a lot of those crazy simple livers we remember--those who lived in RVs and houseboats and hung out in nudist colonies because they loved their simple lives so much--are not around. Many of the rest of us, myself included absolutely, are simple liver aspirants, and we're doing the best we can. Maybe we still live in a two-story home. Maybe we still drive a car. Maybe we still indulge in a gazingus pin of one kind or another, but we need each other on this simple living journey nonetheless.
I see now that your comments, which many have so strongly objected to, are based on judgement of our behavior and our lifestyles. I think I mentioned seeing Paul McCartney once, so I'm assuming that's me you're talking about with your Iconic Performer comment. I don't mind. I don't take offense, and I didn't at the time, but I've explained why earlier in this thread. I enjoy your posts, I laugh at them and ones I don't understand I brush off. However, just as you don't want to be judged or "put in your place," please don't judge the rest of us. We're trying! That's why we're still here. Simple living means different things to different people--we all have our reasons. God knows we're all VERY different personalities on this board, and that's one of things I value.
On the other hand, I also would also like more threads generated on the pure practical and philosophical issues related to voluntary simplicity. Maybe we've all been here so long, those topics have been gone over again and again, and we're comfortable enough now to fall back on kafeklatsch conversation, which you obviously don't really like. So, would you mind just ignoring those threads and let us have our fun?
When you said you tried to start a thread on music, if you recall, no one responded to "what one song do you like"--and none of us responded until the question become what songS do you like. It was a good topic, the OP was just too hard to answer (at least speaking for myself).
Please try to see the many threads that ARE simple living related--all the great budgeting threads, cheap food threads, small house threads, etc. etc. There are tons of them. That being said, I'm going to try to start more voluntary simplicity threads because that's our reason for being here. I have so many books I can' simply pull out a quote that we can discuss perhaps. I don't want anyone on this forum to feel they have to run off or want to run off--including you, Packy.
Hope that helps you some.
rosarugosa
2-4-15, 10:50am
Catherine: What a great post! I love the word "aspirant," instead of "wanna-be," which is how I sometimes describe myself. For all my still somewhat spendy ways, I have really come a long way from where I used to be and this Forum has helped me tremendously. I see simple living as a spectrum, and it's OK for us to be at different points along it. I don't think I'll ever be the ultimate simple liver, nor do I necessarily want to be. But the lessons I've learned about being more mindful, thinking about what I really want from life and how to get there, how dollars translate to the finite hours of my life, these are helping me live a better life already.
I too welcome Packy's contributions to the Forum, even if he doesn't have the good sense to enjoy the music of the Grateful Dead. :)
iris lilies
2-4-15, 1:32pm
...Please try to see the many threads that ARE simple living related--all the great budgeting threads, cheap food threads, small house threads, etc. etc. There are tons of them. That being said, I'm going to try to start more voluntary simplicity threads because that's our reason for being here. I have so many books I can' simply pull out a quote that we can discuss perhaps. I don't want anyone on this forum to feel they have to run off or want to run off--including you, Packy.
Hope that helps you some.
Thankkk youuu!
I feel as if I'm coming from the other end of it. My life is much more complicated now, and my espoused values have been ... spoused, shall I say. I miss the extremes of VS 'purity' and the discussion of radical simplicity, sometimes I'm very angry about the shift of my life, but I also find it very comforting to be around people who've made peace with their less than simple lives and move toward simplicity in small steps. I think I learn just as much from people who are on the journey than those who have arrived.
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