View Full Version : The struggle between Simpliticy and Frugality
Hi everyone!
I haven't been on for a while, I hope everyone has been well. I've been musing on a simple living dilemma for a while and wanted to open it up to discussion. I thought I would post this out there in hopes of gaining some clarity, which will hopefully lead to some action.
Dh and I both grew up very, very poor and we've had to make our own way in the world. So we naturally lean towards frugality and try to live by the "waste not, want not" philosophy. But we also find that we prefer a clean, uncluttered environment without things weighing us down. The problem is that our frugal self recoils at the thought of discarding perfectly good things that we no longer use or need! :0! "What a huge waste!" we think (because we would basically be giving it away after paying good money for it by donating it, as neither one of us wants to go through the trouble of selling it, and it's not very valuable stuff to begin with). "A big waste of money, resources, etc..." (because we worked hard to earn the money that bought those things.) Those are the thoughts going through our brains, we panic, and put the stuff back where it was.
And then of course, the stuff begins to weigh on us emotionally. I'm not sure why that it is, because we do have the storage space for it, and we don't have tons of stuff, but it affects me especially strongly. Having a lot of stuff around makes me feel claustrophobic. It's like the stuff sucks energy out of me. I feel burdened and depressed by it.
Here is my question:
For those of you who seek to have a simple and uncluttered life, while being frugal and wise with your money, how do you balance the struggle between holding on to things and letting them go?
I'm thinking along the lines of setting a clear guideline of usage criteria. Something like, things that haven't been used in at least a year go out. I think at some point, for us at least, there is an emotional cost to keeping things we no longer use or need. I'm trying to see that emotional cost as tangible and real to help with the process. Emotional cost affects quality of life.
I would love to hear what some of you have done to address this issue.
:thankyou:
How do you define frugal? Are we talking just money, or do you mean frugal as using less of all resources, not just money? Keeping things in the house that you don't use costs emotional energy on an ongoing basis. So you are continuing to "pay" more for these items. Getting rid of things, or better, finding someone who will truly appreciate them, frees up this ongoing "cost".
No struggle for me. If something is costing me more energy in claustrophobia than I put into earning the money to buy it, out it goes and I come out ahead. When decluttering a couple of times a year, I use the basic feng shui guide. If I love it or need it, it stays. Otherwise, farewell.
Stuff weights me down as well.....and I have a lot of really nice stuff (antiques, art, clothes, jewelry, etc). I try to always look at my life "from this point forward".
From this point forward I want less stuff so it's ok for me to let things go. I do have a antique/flea market booth that I use for getting rid of art, antiques, vintage, jewelry, etc so I'm making a little big back from the initial expense.
From this point forward I won't spend as much on buying things.
From this point forward I'm doing this for me.
How do you define frugal? Are we talking just money, or do you mean frugal as using less of all resources, not just money? Keeping things in the house that you don't use costs emotional energy on an ongoing basis. So you are continuing to "pay" more for these items. Getting rid of things, or better, finding someone who will truly appreciate them, frees up this ongoing "cost".
Hi herbgeek - this is how I would define frugal: economical in use or expenditure; prudently saving or sparing; not wasteful. We try to be frugal in all that we do and all that we use, not just money.
You got me thinking, and I realized that a lot of what we have are things that served a purpose but have been replaced with something else that serves that same purpose but in a way that pleases us more, due to changes in taste, age, etc. In a way, they are things that served a former version of our lives and ourselves.
Our one extravagance that we do indulge in is creating a very comfy home that feels luxurious to us (even if it doesn't to others). We find that we would rather be home than anywhere else, and that by splurging a little on small things that make our home feel like a haven (like pretty cushions for outdoor chairs, or pretty plants), we feel like we're always on vacation. So a $100 expense will save us thousands in travel costs, in addition to saving the use of other resources for said travel.
For some reason, this feels like it might provide some insight. I'll let it percolate and see what develops! :)
p.s. If I found someone who could really use this stuff, I would give it away in a second. Unfortunately, I live in the Bay Area, and no one I know wants things that are used, or hand-me-downs. I've been looking into various shelters, but all of them so far specify that they only accept new items. The easiest thing would be to donate to goodwill.
Stuff weights me down as well.....and I have a lot of really nice stuff (antiques, art, clothes, jewelry, etc). I try to always look at my life "from this point forward".
From this point forward I want less stuff so it's ok for me to let things go. I do have a antique/flea market booth that I use for getting rid of art, antiques, vintage, jewelry, etc so I'm making a little big back from the initial expense.
From this point forward I won't spend as much on buying things.
From this point forward I'm doing this for me.
Hi Float On - I really like this! I like the idea of thinking of this as a form of self-nurturing, rather than self-blaming or self-reproach. If I can turn this into a positive process, it would make such a huge difference. Thank you!:)
If I can turn this into a positive process, it would make such a huge difference. Thank you!:)
I meant to say "HI!! You've been missed around here and it's nice to see you posting again."
I think you can make this positive!
Oddball Quote: No struggle for me. If something is costing me more energy in claustrophobia than I put into earning the money to buy it, out it goes and I come out ahead. When decluttering a couple of times a year, I use the basic feng shui guide. If I love it or need it, it stays. Otherwise, farewell."
Oddball - I love this! So beautiful and simple. This shall be my new mantra. Now, if I can adhere to it, that remains to be seen. :|(
eta: somehow my reply w/ quote got messed up. Have no idea how!
I meant to say "HI!! You've been missed around here and it's nice to see you posting again."
I think you can make this positive!
Hi Float! Thanks for the welcome. It's nice to 'see you' again. Life's been a bit busy with two puppies to train and cuddle. I remember when I got my boxer puppy last year you said it made you glad you didn't have a puppy anymore. Would you believe I went out and got me a second, and younger, one? But they are such a joy, that I don't mind the work.
And thanks for the double positive encouragement. Right back at ya!
When I'm shopping these days I try to look at every item I'm considering and say to myself, "I want less clutter in my life. I'd like more money in my life. Will this help?" The answer is usually so absurd that I start to giggle. Oh, Yes, this purple beanbag chair will definitely help! It will help if it stays right here in the store.
Getting rid of things I already have is harder, but I like Float On's mantra about it.
Kib, That is perfect. I would like to have it embossed on my wallet. :)
"I want less clutter in my life. I'd like more money in my life. Will this help?"
iris lilies
2-4-15, 6:58pm
OP I completely get what you are saying and I understood the conflict from your title, even before reading your explanation.
Many times, not spending money means Do It Yourself projects with much time, focus, and space being devoted to the DIY project. Now, if you love that DIY project then it's great. But if you do not love it--it's a resource suck, taking away from life energy.
It is often simpler (i.e. less life energy spent) to just throw money at something.
But honestly, when I imagine myself very very wealthy, I'm not sure that it is much simpler. If I don't "Do" the DIY things then I have to hire people to do it, and then I have to "manage" those people. Ugh. I think I would rather be just responsible for myself (and DH) leading a simple, uncluttered life with a small house because in the end, I probably have as much free time as those with multiple properties and many household employees.
I keep in mind three concepts: "no shame, no blame," first, from YMOYL; second, the notion of "gazingus pins" (also from YMOYL); and third, the economists' concept of "sunk costs." So as I am decluttering my stash of gazingus pins, which I still haven't completely managed to stop myself from collecting, I tell myself that the money is spent (sunk costs), it's gone, and I can never get it back. Therefore, the item has absolutely no value to me other than what psychological importance I attach to it (assuming I'm not going to try to sell it, which I never do except for the case of, say, a car). Then, inevitably, I feel bad about "wasting" money, and then remind myself "no shame, no blame." The shame and blame part, though, has been helpful in me changing my spending and consumption habits dramatically. In other words, feeling that remorse and regret over buying useless things has caused me enough pain that I now choose much more deliberately. If I'm getting rid of an object that was perfectly useful and appropriate for my life at the time I purchased it, then I just look at it as having paid "rent" on an object and that it was now time to let it move onto some other cause and/or person who needs it. I try to remind myself that no one really possesses anything--we can't take anything with us, and we're all just humans sharing the same resources of the same planet.
Yes, that "just in case" mentality can get me in trouble--I'll keep all the boxes from Christmas "just in case" I need one for a future present. I'll keep the 4th screwdriver "just in case" I can't find the other three when I need them. I now know what things I do wind up re-using (nice grosgrain ribbons) vs things I don't (cheap florist vases).
When it comes to the fear of wasting something, I try to donate what I can rather than throw it out--one man's trash is another man's treasure.
It might not help everyone, but I really have come to thing of holding on to things as a sin--other people could be benefiting from them, and all things should flow through your life--not get stuck. I read in Karen Kingston's book, Clear Your Clutter with Feng Shui (oddball, maybe we read the same book), that "clutter" comes from the Middle English word, "clotter"i.e., coagulation. So that gives me such a great mental picture of the danger of clotting up your life with stuff you no longer need.
For me frugality also means fewer needs, so the fewer needs you can identify the less you'll have to dispose of eventually, anyway.
And yes, hello, watergoddess! Great to see you back!
Ooooooh, I like what you just said, Selah! That is kind of how I've turned my thinking around from when I was younger and used to be the holder of all the funky family heirlooms. Over the years I have culled and culled my stuff to the point that in my life, right now, I have everything I need to live comfortably in my home. I do need to do a de-clutter of the small, inconsequential stuff that creeps in, but until I decide to move out west, all the furniture and decor that I currently use to make my house a home stays put because I am not going anywhere soon.
I also like the idea that I am just paying "rent" on something while it is useful to me at that time. Many, many years ago I sold a lot of jewelry supplies and equipment in order to buy a fine guitar; fifteen years later, guess what! I am repurchasing many of the same tools because I am doing jewelry once again. And I still have my fine guitar :)
I usually don't have too much problem releasing things back into circulation because I figure some one sifting through the racks and shelves at the thrift store (if I haven't managed to sell the item) will get a thrill with their "find" just like I did, because most of the things I own came from the thrift store anyway. I was just paying "rent" on it to enjoy it while it was useful to me.
Thanks for the welcome and the replies everyone! I've enjoyed reading each one.
I don't really have a problem with buying new things, as I'm not a shopper at all - a small blessing from years working in retail. :)
And actually, we're big DIY types, and tackle everything we can ourselves. If we were very wealthy, we wouldn't change much at all. Except maybe hire a house cleaner! Love a clean house; do not love cleaning.
The things we have, that we don't need or use, we've had for many years. But they're still good! And what if... just in case... :0!>8)
I think looking at the experiences these things have provided us will be a positive way to go. Dh and I have traveled quite a bit, and we've never regretted any of those expenses, because we value the experiences they've provided. In the same way, these life mementos that we're holding on to have provided us with life experiences that have been valuable and fulfilling: college educations for Dh and myself, feathering our first home with what we could afford on our very limited budget, learning how to do and create new things, etc.
I've always enjoyed shopping at thrift stores, so donating my stuff there doesn't have to feel like such a bad thing. I've been wanting to have these things serve a greater purpose to assuage my guilt over letting them go. Best to let go of that guilt and enjoy the process of letting these things go and allow them to give someone else pleasure instead of sitting in boxes in storage!
Aaahhh.... that feels good.
. Life's been a bit busy with two puppies to train and cuddle. I remember when I got my boxer puppy last year you said it made you glad you didn't have a puppy anymore. Would you believe I went out and got me a second, and younger, one?
I do remember when you got the boxer pup and now two of them. Wow. Boxers are totally cute though so I understand. I actually simplified even more and recently sold all my chickens and two coops. Finding someone to watch chickens is a little harder than getting someone to stop by to feed the cat and dog and I really want to free up my responsibilities so we can travel a little more again (one son will be going to college a couple states away and I want to make several trips there though out the year). Our dog and cat are still hanging on in their old age and I don't think I'll replace them.
This can be a hard one for me too, less so in theory, more so in practice.
In theory I have given myself permission to change and grow as a person, to have wanted things in the past that I don't want now, to have taken up hobbies that I no longer pursue, etc.
In theory I have also forgiven myself for money spent on those items and hobbies, if I think it truly was wasteful at the time.
In theory I have forgiven myself (and DH) for those periods of time when we were less than frugal.
In theory I have accepted sunk costs and I have donated things that truly don't serve our needs any longer.
In reality, it isn't exactly that easy.
Here is my problem with simplicity vs. frugality: they realistically don't always dovetail together. Simple is buying a greeting card when the need arises, frugal is making a card with supplies on hand. (Perhaps more simple is sending electronic greetings only, but I don't want to go that far and we often see family members in person for their birthdays.) Storing said supplies isn't always simple. In a long period of simplicity (where I falsely clung to the idea of time = money) I decluttered almost all of my paper crafting supplies. But now I am trying very hard to stay in the informal economy for anything that I can make for myself, and of course it wasn't frugal to buy paper crafting supplies again. The only way I could try to make it simple was to commit to not buying rubber stamps, stickers, or a million little doodads; the cards I made last month were hand lettered by me even though I have been encouraged to buy a Cricut and all that.
This isn't the only example I have of having decluttered and then wishing I hadn't, so now I am trying to be very careful when I declutter. I also need to not let myself be influenced by how other people declutter.
Last year I bought four pairs of canvas tennis shoes because there was a big sale. These are pretty much my year round casual shoes; I do have walking shoes, sandals, etc. but I am usually a one pair person (one pair of sandals, one pair of walking shoes, one pair of dress shoes, one pair of hikers, etc.) My reality is that I really only need one pair of canvas shoes at a time, and now I find myself storing the extra shoes I bought. I could wear them since they are different colors, but I don't need to, and I find it complicated to choose shoes that way each day. Simple would be to donate three pairs, even if two are completely unworn. But I do know that over time I will need them as the current pair wears out or gets holes, so the frugal part of me can't bear to donate them.
I think I am coming to a place where simplicity isn't the end all be all. I have been inspired by tiny house living, but would hate to give up the creating that is a big part of my life, or to be hampered by not being able to cook everything we eat, from scratch, and from bulk. My goal now is to reclaim my life as a unique human being and to break free of all the "shoulds" that i have had ingrained into me since I was a child. A big part of that is becoming someone that the marketers have no interest in, but to be a maker/producer I need space and I need supplies :)
Hi Float - you're right about travel being difficult with pets. Sounds like you will really enjoy visiting your son when he's away. We only have one boxer - I really don't think I could handle 2 of them. Boxers have a LOT of energy. My second one is a little mixed ball of fluff who loves chasing the boxer girl around the yard and the house. They have a blast together, and have saved my sanity!
Hi Kimberly - I've always believed that we get to choose our own definition of simplicity - or simple living/life. Maybe that's why I tend to use the term "living an intentional life" quite often. If making cards yourself gives you pleasure, that seems like a wonderful example of simple living to me. Whereas for myself, who is not crafty at all despite many efforts, the supplies (and time) would be wasted and frustrating. I keep a stash of pretty store-bought blank cards to use instead. But I can spend hours pulling weeds by hand in the garden and feel wonderful the whole time I'm doing it.
I would say that we both enjoy simple pleasures and a simple life - they just happen to be different versions of it. As Joseph Campbell would say, "Follow your bliss!" And if using the word 'simple' isn't satisfying for you, find the one that does feel good, and use that instead. It sounds to me like you very much enjoy a creative life. And as for the shoes, surely you have space to store three pairs of shoes to enjoy when the time comes! And just think of how much you will enjoy using each new pair when it's their turn, especially since they are all different colors! :)
I think frugality is a bit tougher because we often don't know what the future holds. So it's very possible that we might discard something that later is needed. It's such a good habit to have though - despite the potential for error. Dh and I happily drive our 20 year old cars and have no desire to buy new ones. My family's comments: "Are you still driving that old car?" And my response: "It still works!"
These next few days we are expecting rain, so I'm looking forward to gathering my donations and spending some time remembering the enjoyment that we received from using all the things that we are now ready to give away. It's a very nice feeling.
ToomuchStuff
2-7-15, 1:57am
In the last several months, at least twice, this has been posted, but you might find it of interest.
http://www.luckyshops.com/article/konmari-method-closet-cleaning
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/23/garden/home-organization-advice-from-marie-kondo.html?_r=1
When you come from a poor side, you do have a tendancy to hang on to stuff, because if feels like you won't get it back. That sense fights with logic that tells you, that you bought x to use for an amount of time equal to need, and makes you ignore the fact that it still costs you in time, money (storage, even just in the home), etc.
Yep. I sometimes wonder what that's about. We just got a gift of Omaha Steaks, which come in a styrofoam cooler - much thicker and sturdier than your average dollar store one, this is like what they'd pack a stereo in. - which means sturdy but bulky. But we have four non-styrofoam coolers in various sizes already. I really had to have a discussion with myself before donating it (and I still couldn't bring myself to just throw it away!) 1. we don't need this, and 2. if I needed to buy another one, it would cost me about $2.85. Yet ... surely ... there must be a use ... I could maybe ... Storing this thing wouldn't be simple, and apparently getting rid of it wasn't simple either. Simple ... is it in our heads?
(I muse, as I look through the passway at a 2 gallon plastic jar from protein powder sitting on the counter ... )
I have used Freecycle extensively. I live in the San Francisco bay area, and it is true, even the thrift stores are very picky about what they will take because there is just so much stuff that people are trying to get rid of. But with Freecycle, I post items one at a time, people write and ask for them, and then they come and pick them up!! I always choose someone who gives me a reason for wanting the item (and first dibs to non-profits) and then they are so happy to get it! It makes me happy that the items are wanted and I feel pretty certain that they will be used. The whole point is to keep useable stuff out of the landfill.
My daughter and I have both bought furniture off of craigslist. Never paid more than $70 for an item, but that's a whole lot less than buying new (and often lesser quality).
I have used Freecycle extensively.
Freecycle is great--I've used it quite a bit; it's pretty active in my area. I agree--it's nice to know the stuff gets a good home, and it's fun meeting the people who are also into keeping things out of landfills and saving money at the same time.
Tussiemussies
2-7-15, 10:34pm
We moved two years ago and have one large room full of about 100 boxes of items that we have accumulated from thirty yesrs of marriage. We will be getting ready fairly soon to go through it and I have been thinking about how to deal with the things I want to give away. Right now I have a Talbots jacket that was reg. 235.00 marked down to 100.00 and have not wanted to put it on freecycle or in consignment because I feel that someone will buy it cheap and resell. For our items i will donate it all to Habitat for Humanity. Right now I'm trying to find someone that I know that would like the jacket.... : )
early morning
2-8-15, 12:06pm
Tussie, it bugs DH to give something away or sell it cheaply for someone else to make money, too. But I don't mind resellers - I am one, lol. We do exactly that- buy cheap, or trashpick, and resell to make a little money. Most resellers aren't getting wealthy, but trying to add value to their household in any way they can, so I'm fine with it. And when I sell cheap or give something away to someone who may resell, I like to think that perhaps I'm helping an entrepreneurial spirit actively participate in economic gain, instead of having to sell their labor for minimum wage, or perhaps it will allow someone making minimum wage to get ahead just a bit. (And once I've made the decision to unload something, I want it gone yesterday!) Just another perspective - nothing wrong with your perspective either!! It's nice to love something or have something of value to release, and want the next person who owns it to love it and value it too!
Teacher Terry
2-8-15, 1:53pm
I have never decluttered & then been sorry about it later. We live on a fairly busy street so when I want to get rid of something I put it in the front yard with a free sign. Usually gone in about 20 min. Sometimes I sell things cheap on Craigslist & sometimes I don't want to bother so give it away. Just depends on my mood.
seedycharacter
2-8-15, 11:44pm
My challenge with parting with excess clothing is that the items are usually too funky to donate. Maybe there's a little tear that I patched and am fine with but, once donated, will just get tossed in the dumpster at the Goodwill sorting facility. I read all those articles about how much clothing is clogging up the landfills. I have been turning old clothes, sheets and towels into rags and then giving most of them one good use and then tossing or composting. I used to launder all rags but decided it's less wasteful of resources (water, laundry products) to toss after one use. Most end up in the landfill, too, but I guess it feels like they were completely used up. Sigh--it's a hard one . . .
I tend towards simplicity, although I am frugal. Stuff weighs me down. I'd rather have a smaller number of quality clothes/shoes than a whole bunch of cheap stuff. I buy nearly all my clothes at Talbots. Shoes are generally Merrells.
I bought a new car (Focus) last spring after getting good use (101K miles) out of my 2005 Focus, which I'd also bought new.
iris lilies
3-1-15, 11:19pm
Tussie, it bugs DH to give something away or sell it cheaply for someone else to make money, too. But I don't mind resellers - I am one, lol. We do exactly that- buy cheap, or trashpick, and resell to make a little money. Most resellers aren't getting wealthy, but trying to add value to their household in any way they can, so I'm fine with it. And when I sell cheap or give something away to someone who may resell, I like to think that perhaps I'm helping an entrepreneurial spirit actively participate in economic gain, instead of having to sell their labor for minimum wage, or perhaps it will allow someone making minimum wage to get ahead just a bit. (And once I've made the decision to unload something, I want it gone yesterday!) Just another perspective - nothing wrong with your perspective either!! It's nice to love something or have something of value to release, and want the next person who owns it to love it and value it too!
i'm with you, when I am done with something, i don't care if someone else places it in the hands of someone who wants the thing.
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