View Full Version : Crashed German plane was intentional by co-pilot
Wasn't sure where to post this.
This is devastating news. The pilot left the cockpit and then the co-pilot locked him out, and then crashed the plane on purpose.
I guess the co-pilot had only been flying for 18 months. It will be interesting learning more about him. Was this his intention from the start? Was he a sleeper cell? Was he just suicidal?
This just makes me sick. I know everyone's loss is a tragedy......but those 16 students coming back from a week in Spain is even more heartbreaking.
Guess we have to make some changes to those locked doors to the cockpit.......considering you never know who's flying the plane and capable of horrendous things. :(
oh dear, i had only heard about it on my French language news feed so i didn't understand much of the story. no matter what we do as far as screening it only takes one person and a few minutes to wreck this havoc.
I guess in the U.S., there's a rule where if the pilot has to leave the cockpit, another member of the crew has to go in there, so there's always 2 people. This didn't happen on this flight. I'm not sure it would have mattered. They have the ability to open the door back up from the cabin, but that's assuming whoever is left in the cockpit can't constantly prevent it. Seems like if the co-pilot wanted to kill himself, he could have done it all by himself somewhere. I'll never understand taking so many innocent others with you.
because if he killed him self alone then he wouldnt have the notoriety and fame that these scumbags are often craving, its the same with school shooters and suicide by cop seekers.
It will be interesting to see if they start finding red flags in the personality of the co-pilot.
ToomuchStuff
3-26-15, 11:32am
This is certainly the wrong spot for it, not sure how a plane crash is political (he didn't hit some capital).
That said, where is the story that he was suicidal? Last story I saw, said the pilot was out of the cabin and when he came back he couldn't get in. Still don't know why the captain was out of there (bathroom maybe), and haven't seen if this was a two person or three person (navigator) crew reported, or anything to suggest this was suicide verses the copilot possibly having a medical issue. Last I saw they are still trying to piece things together as there wasn't a lot of the cockpit left.
TMS...........I wouldn't say it is "certainly" the wrong spot for it. I was wondering if it could have been a sleeper cell. Where would you have put this? Does a plane have to hit a capitol to do damage to a country??
Sometimes it's hard to know where to put things.
The news said that on the recorder, they could hear the pilot banging on the door, but they could only hear breathing by the co-pilot.
ToomuchStuff
3-26-15, 11:57am
I sent a pm to Alan, asking for his opinion, as I think it would be better in the open forum or transportation, until it is factually determined to be a terrorist thing.
Awhile back, I read a book about the 1955 crash of TWA flight 260 on Sandia Mountain, outside Albuquerque, N.M. It was shortly after takeoff, and the pilot was experienced & had flown that route many times. Due to the devastation of the aircraft & a lot less fail-safe procedure than what they have now, it took 4-5 years to close the case. As we see in the case of the various recent airline crashes, coupled with media overreporting and pot-stirring; scuttlebutt, speculation and unfounded rumor ran rampant. In the 1955 case, there was a rush to judgement, all the way up to officialdom, that it was intentional, by the pilot. The pilot's widow received death threats, had lawsuits filed against her husband's estate, in addition to having to deal with his death and take care of her children. It took the diligence and persistence of a fellow activist pilot to further pursue an investigation into the actual cause of the crash; He had known the dead pilot, and that it was totally preposterous that it was an intentional act. As it turned out, the plane had had a history of intermittent, isolated gyroscopic-compass malfunctions, and so had other planes so equipped. The gyroscopic-compass(located in the wing) malfunction caused the guidance instruments in the cockpit to read wrong, and when flying in cloudy, overcast or stormy weather, without proper visual orientation, the pilots got off course--and into the side of a rock spire on Sandia Mountain. The pilot was finally cleared of culpability. So, the message I got from that book, as it now applies, is that the "news media" needs to stop manufacturing the news, feeding the rumor mill, causing people to jump to conclusions--and let a proper investigation take place in due time. See?
I couldn't get the Open forum to show on my list of categories, which is where I was going to post it first. I'm just a little curious by what seems to be an over-reaction on your part.
Awhile back, I read a book about the 1955 crash of TWA flight 260 on Sandia Mountain, outside Albuquerque, N.M. It was shortly after takeoff, and the pilot was experienced & had flown that route many times. Due to the devastation of the aircraft & a lot less fail-safe procedure than what they have now, it took 4-5 years to close the case. As we see in the case of the various recent airline crashes, coupled with media overreporting and pot-stirring; scuttlebutt, speculation and unfounded rumor ran rampant. In the 1955 case, there was a rush to judgement, all the way up to officialdom, that it was intentional, by the pilot. The pilot's widow received death threats, had lawsuits filed against her husband's estate, in addition to having to deal with his death and take care of her children. It took the diligence and persistence of a fellow activist pilot to reopen an investigation into the actual cause of the crash; He knew the dead pilot, and that it was totally preposterous that it was an intentional act. As it turned out, the plane had had a history of intermittent, isolated gyroscopic-compass malfunctions, and so had other planes so equipped. The gyroscopic-compass(located in the wing) malfunction caused the instruments in the cockpit to read wrong, and when flying in cloudy, overcast or stormy weather, without proper visual orientation, the pilots got off course--and into the side of a rock spire on Sandia Mountain. So, the "news media" needs to stop manufacturing the news--and let a proper investigation take place in due time. See?
I absolutely agree. But silly me, I was going by what the chief investigator of the crash, at the Marseille prosecutor's office said was on the voice recorder. I wasn't going by The National Inquirer.
ToomuchStuff
3-26-15, 12:24pm
I couldn't get the Open forum to show on my list of categories, which is where I was going to post it first. I'm just a little curious by what seems to be an over-reaction on your part.
No terrorist orgainization has taken claim to it, so if it was one nutcase that decided to become homicidal/suicidal, does that make it the cell you were thinking it could be? I tend to stay out of the politics section as it has caused enough drama in my family that I wish (and have said so) the section was a opt in or ignore function. So I came in just to see the story you were linking to and found none, but speculation in an area that I though fit better elsewhere (why my reaction).
sweetana3
3-26-15, 12:25pm
I suspect Packy is trying to say that it is too early for anyone to make any decisions and most are being pushed by the media to come up with something to say. It does look suspicious but I find it better to wait for the whole investigations to be completed.
The 24 hour news cycle is a killer when you are in front of the camera. Have you seen some of those media rooms with a hundred cameras and microphones. Not to mention the telephone relays.
I recall the Media Circus surrounding the car-crash death of Diana Spencer in 1997. They had "computer generated" video clips of the car spinning like a drill bit into the concrete tunnel support; the 24-hour Tee-Vee talking heads claimed that was why the roof on the car was mashed down. Well, I knew it wasn't so--the roof was not damaged in the crash, it had been cut clear off the car to extricate everyone, then set back down onto the car in a haphazard fashion & making it look crushed down. It turned out that no, the car had remained upright during the course of the crash. No rollover. Opinions, are like bellybuttons--everyone's got one; even public officials. If you don't know by now--they CAN be wrong, at times That was my point in my lengthy screed about TWA Flight 260 way back in '55---the media, & CAA investigators and the airline officials initially hung the pilot out to dry; only--an independent investigation conducted by an airline pilots' association activist who was not satisfied with "official" conclusions, dug just a little deeper--and found the documented, verifiable evidence--and a credible reason for the crash. Now do you see? Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
So we should never talk about anything for weeks or months after the investigation is over?
So we should never talk about anything for weeks or months after the investigation is over?
Well, it seems a waste of time and energy until facts come out. Especially if the event is something that you can't personally influence anyways.
Here's a good article that questions the prosecutor coming to a, perhaps, erroneous conclusion.
http://www.wired.com/2015/03/germanwings-investigation-far-hardly-conclusive/
To respond to Packy's post and go slightly off-topic, National Geographic Network has an excellent series called Air Disasters that reconstructs historic plane crashes. Everything from bombs to weather conditions to structural failures. Fascinating stuff.
Sure would be good to eventually figure out what happen to that Malaysian plane.....for the sake of the families.
That National Geographic series sounds interesting. I think it would be very interesting work, to put together the causes of these things (and probably depressing on another level).
National Geographic or someone similiar does other disasters and I have learned so much. So often it is a combination of small issues that just happen at the wrong time. The detailed 9/11 report on why the buildings fell was so detailed.
ps: dont watch the Air Disasters just before a long air journey.
No terrorist orgainization has taken claim to it, so if it was one nutcase that decided to become homicidal/suicidal, does that make it the cell you were thinking it could be? I tend to stay out of the politics section as it has caused enough drama in my family that I wish (and have said so) the section was a opt in or ignore function. So I came in just to see the story you were linking to and found none, but speculation in an area that I though fit better elsewhere (why my reaction).
Really? Cause, you know, I can think of a real good way of not being offended/angered/traumatized by the politics forum. But considering how obvious it would seem, maybe I'm being a bit dense. Perhaps if you started your own thread on why something you don't like should be opt in for everyone else, we could get a better handle on your thinking. Thanks.
Awhile back, I read a book about the 1955 crash of TWA flight 260 on Sandia Mountain, outside Albuquerque, N.M. It was shortly after takeoff, and the pilot was experienced & had flown that route many times. Due to the devastation of the aircraft & a lot less fail-safe procedure than what they have now, it took 4-5 years to close the case. As we see in the case of the various recent airline crashes, coupled with media overreporting and pot-stirring; scuttlebutt, speculation and unfounded rumor ran rampant. In the 1955 case, there was a rush to judgement, all the way up to officialdom, that it was intentional, by the pilot. The pilot's widow received death threats, had lawsuits filed against her husband's estate, in addition to having to deal with his death and take care of her children. It took the diligence and persistence of a fellow activist pilot to further pursue an investigation into the actual cause of the crash; He had known the dead pilot, and that it was totally preposterous that it was an intentional act. As it turned out, the plane had had a history of intermittent, isolated gyroscopic-compass malfunctions, and so had other planes so equipped. The gyroscopic-compass(located in the wing) malfunction caused the guidance instruments in the cockpit to read wrong, and when flying in cloudy, overcast or stormy weather, without proper visual orientation, the pilots got off course--and into the side of a rock spire on Sandia Mountain. The pilot was finally cleared of culpability. So, the message I got from that book, as it now applies, is that the "news media" needs to stop manufacturing the news, feeding the rumor mill, causing people to jump to conclusions--and let a proper investigation take place in due time. See?
I think the airliners first reaction is 'blame the pilot'. I know it is that way with the Air Force whenever something goes wrong. Their first answer seems to always be pilot error
With such destruction, and no real evidence of pilot mental problems, I'm not sure if they will ever be able to fully piece together what happened. I think with this what they are going on now is that the cabin was locked after the pilot left to use the bathroom. I don't think that is standard practice.
So so sad.
Peggy......the cockpit door is always locked....even when one of them is out. But they can punch in an access code to open it. But if the pilot who is inside the cockpit presses a button to NOT let that open the door, then the person can't get in.
It's all created to keep the bad guys out........not the pilot. I suppose the co-pilot could have passed out and fell on the door lock button, but that's doubtful. They said the co-pilots breathing was normal until they crashed. That's weird. you'd think he would have been anxious too, since he was going to die. And like I said above, at least in the U.S., there is always to be 2 crew members in the cockpit at all times......like when the pilot goes to the restroom. I guess it's so that no one person can do something like may have happened in this case.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/27/world/europe/germanwings-crash.html?_r=0
New York Times article. Apparently yes suicide, no terrorism.
" PARIS — The co-pilot of Germanwings flight 9525 deliberately crashed the aircraft, French officials said Thursday, pointing to voice recorder evidence that he had locked the captain out of the cockpit, ignored his pleas for re-entry and steered down into the French Alps as passengers were heard screaming.
Mr. Robin said it appeared that the intention of the co-pilot, identified as Andreas Lubitz, had been “to destroy the aircraft.” He said the voice recorder showed that the co-pilot had been breathing until before the moment of impact, suggesting that he was conscious and deliberate in bringing the plane down and killing 144 passengers and five other crew members on Tuesday.
He said there was no indication that it was a terrorist attack, and added that Mr. Lubitz was not known to law enforcement officials. After the news conference, the German interior minister, Thomas de Maizière, told reporters in Berlin that security officials had checked their records after Tuesday’s crash and found no indication that anyone aboard had links to terrorism."
Peggy......the cockpit door is always locked....even when one of them is out. But they can punch in an access code to open it. But if the pilot who is inside the cockpit presses a button to NOT let that open the door, then the person can't get in.
It's all created to keep the bad guys out........not the pilot. I suppose the co-pilot could have passed out and fell on the door lock button, but that's doubtful. They said the co-pilots breathing was normal until they crashed. That's weird. you'd think he would have been anxious too, since he was going to die. And like I said above, at least in the U.S., there is always to be 2 crew members in the cockpit at all times......like when the pilot goes to the restroom. I guess it's so that no one person can do something like may have happened in this case.
I know. so sad really. All the evidence points to this co-pilot apparently. At least I'm sure that will be their best guess, and considering everything, I think that's all they will be left with. A suicidal co-pilot. I don't see a medical scenario where he locked the door, then presses the button to not let the pilot in and then became medically incapacitated. it would be a real stretch to see that. Plus apparently they could hear his breathing that was normal.
I didn't know they always locked the door when anyone left leaving only one there. That seems kind of asking for trouble if someone was actually medically troubled. But then I guess that's the reason for the code override, which I guess he disabled. I like the US way of insuring there are at least two in the cockpit at all times.
I really appreciate all the people who have to clean up after these horrible crashes. It must be pretty gruesome.
Now they're saying it looks like the co-pilot was mentally ill. Seems like we hear this more and more........that someone who commits atrocities has a mental problem......but only in hindsight. I suppose it's a balancing act to recognize if someone's problems are enough to remove him/her from the job/the public or give the benefit of the doubt. Sooooooo many people are depressed, but don't do things like this. It's a real dilemma on how to know who's capable of bad things, and who isn't going to hurt anyone.
I was a volunteer helping with the clean up of a private plane crash that killed 18 people about 15 years ago. I didn't have anything to do with recovering bodies or the investigation, only some logistical support (thank goodness), but could see the carnage pretty clearly from where I stood. Given the size of this plane, the number of people on board and the location of the crash this is not a job for the faint of heart.
It will be interesting to see what comes out re: the co-pilot and his mental state. Regardless, there is no shortage of examples of people who are having difficulties resorting to incredibly violent acts. It might be interesting to hear something from the psyc community explaining why this seems to be a growing trend as opposed to (individual) suicide. My own guess is that a lot of people feel like they're caught in a meat grinder. Competitive and very demanding jobs, social status, constant consumption... Pair that with societies that, as a whole, put less value than we could on compassion and care and its probably surprising this doesn't happen more often.
Yes, yes yes, I guess. See, what will happen, due to the media trumpeting the cause of the crash(even if it isn't) before the remains of the victims have even been gathered up, sorted, and identified is this: Copycat Incidents. The criminally deranged, self-centered individual will see all of this misery that was caused and the attention it garnered, and they will say to themselves: Hey- I could do that, too! Well, won't they? So, for the next 20 years--there will be another intentional homicide a la suicide air disaster in the news every so often.
Teacher Terry
3-27-15, 5:06pm
They did report that they found a crumpled note saying not fit to fly in his apartment. My son said there have been some instances when a senior pilot found out he was losing his international route & his boss was on board after telling him that he purposedly crashed the plane ( 2 separate instances from a number of years ago) so you never know when someone will snap.
Teacher Terry,
Supposedly the same thing with the Egypt Air pilot who flew the aircraft into the ocean - he knew he was getting fired upon his return. So the question is why not treat pilots like anyone else who is getting fired: you get notice and then you have to hand in your badge on the spot. You don't get fired and then continue to work for a while - that's the strange thing.
Teacher Terry
3-28-15, 1:01pm
I know my son & I were talking about that yesterday. It is really bizarre how they do it. There have been 2 other incidents my son said. A few times they put the boss on the plane for the last flight. Big mistake since it is more of an incentive to kill the person firing you.
Seems like that practice would be putting the airlines at risk for an incredible amount of lawsuits. It makes no sense at all. Maybe they should have 3-4 people in the cockpit at all times.
I guess they don't all have an air marshal on board, or is that an old thing that isn't done any more? Could a gun have shot the lock on the cockpit door open? Seems like the risk of depressurizing the cabin would be less than everyone dying in a crash.
Or we could look at the billions of passenger miles every year, the number of suicidal plane pilots and come to the, probably reasonable, conclusion that this is such a highly unlikely event that it probably doesn't warrant doing anything significant. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that in the US no one is ever in the cockpit alone. That seems like a reasonable method of reducing the likelihood of this. If there's only a pilot and co-pilot then a flight attendant should go stand in the cockpit while the pilot uses the restroom. Anything else would be overkill compared to the actual risk. We can't limit all risk of anything bad happening ever. If we did we'd all be walking everywhere. One is FAR more likely to die in a car crash than on a plane piloted by a suicidal pilot.
gimmethesimplelife
3-28-15, 7:00pm
One of the reasons I don't like flying is that I have wondered before what if the pilot had a suicide wish? How could that be stopped at 30,000 plus feet in the air? I've never really discussed this before because I'd agree that this does sound paranoid but it has crossed my mind before. I wonder what will be changed now due to this incident? From what I have read online there will need to be two people in the cockpit at all times from now on on European airlines flights. I hope there is some way to screen pilots for mental issues - but honestly, if someone jumps through all the hoops, how can they be stopped once they are behind the controls? Not especially pleasant thoughts but I still believe the chances of loss of life, give the daily volume of flights globally, is very minimal as it is reported to be. Rob
iris lilies
3-28-15, 7:25pm
Or we could look at the billions of passenger miles every year, the number of suicidal plane pilots and come to the, probably reasonable, conclusion that this is such a highly unlikely event that it probably doesn't warrant doing anything significant. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that in the US no one is ever in the cockpit alone. That seems like a reasonable method of reducing the likelihood of this. If there's only a pilot and co-pilot then a flight attendant should go stand in the cockpit while the pilot uses the restroom. Anything else would be overkill compared to the actual risk. We can't limit all risk of anything bad happening ever. If we did we'd all be walking everywhere. One is FAR more likely to die in a car crash than on a plane piloted by a suicidal pilot.
Any decision to pile more pilots into the cockpit isn't about safety, it's a business decision. The flying public needs reassurance after this latest bizarre incident that they are "safe"
or else they will not fly. It's perception, not reality.
Kinda like "hands up don't shoot..."
gimmethesimplelife
3-28-15, 7:59pm
Any decision to pile more pilots into the cockpit isn't about safety, it's a business decision. The flying public needs reassurance after this latest bizarre incident that they are "safe"
or else they will not fly. It's perception, not reality.
Kinda like "hands up don't shoot..."I agree with your first paragraph 100%. I'd liken this to how some call the TSA "Security Theater." Last sentence though.....There have been a number of prisoners released lately that DNA evidence has proven innocence for, after a number of years of prison time. When you throw the phrase "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" around, for me this not only symbolizes police brutality, and the tendency of police to be above the law (though I do believe this is slowly changing), but also a justice system that does not work for those unable to pay for representation, and also a citizenship that makes me vulnerable to an overzealous justice system should I be in the wrong place at the wrong time and unable to afford legal representation.
Yes indeed. Those four words, "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" are charged with all the above for me and more. Not small words to throw around in my mind. I'm not criticizing you, IL, this is not my point in posting this. I just want to state another take on these four words. For me they are synonomous (sp?) with some major issues I have with this citizenship, though certainly not every issue. Rob
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