View Full Version : Person in the "gift economy" who won't contribute
ButterflyBreath
3-31-15, 2:58am
Hi guys. I need a little advice about a situation with a friend. I recently met him through a community gardening project. We quickly became friends and have also explored the idea of dating, but there's one big incompatibility we have.
4 years ago he radically changed his life. He left his marriage and became more spiritual, says he meditated a lot and now all he really cares about is being love and showing love to everyone in the moment. He also dropped a lot of his financial responsibilities and has not worked since then. He wants absolutely nothing to do with money and says he uses the gift economy, which he calls love economy. He donates plasma for gas money and does odd jobs to pay his cell phone bill, and is currently squatting. He has children who live with their mother in a different state, but I think it's pretty safe to say he doesn't contribute to their wellbeing.
I like his presence for the most part and he has a good vibe so he stays at my house occasionally. Until recently he had a running vehicle but now he doesn't so I have to pick him up. I also let him eat with me, and he's a great cook and always willing to prep food but I have to pay for the food. I am having a hard time with how he chooses to ignore the fact that money is still needed for things, things which he uses and enjoys, but does not contribute to paying for. I always have to pay for anything that requires money, and a couple of times he has borrowed small amounts of money and said he would pay me back but never does.
He claims to be highly spiritual and tries to manifest things...he's one of those people who says everything happens the way it's supposed to and we always have what we need, etc but it's because of others picking up his slack that his life is that way. Sometimes it just seems like I have a kid, a dependent, and even though he tries to make up for things I pay for by cooking or whatever I need done, it still feels like he's taking advantage of me. Whenever I bring it up (the whole money issue) he turns it around on me and says that I think I need money or feel this way because it's my conditioning.
I'm a bit torn about how to interact with him, as I want to stay friends with him, but I don't like this selfish feeling I have that says he's taking advantage of me. A lot of people, friends in our circle want to live more carefree like he does, and by him using my money to pay for him, he is prolonging my need to have to work and live "in the system" rather than paying his share so I can have help and leave the system. I think that's why it bothers me. He thinks we should just all up and not pay our bills.
Does anyone know someone like this? What can I tell myself to stop being so petty about money? I really haven't spent much on him...just a few dollars here and there, and food and gas...I guess though it's the principle, and it bothers me.
ButterflyBreath
3-31-15, 3:01am
Another thing to add, he is in an intentional community group I facilitate, and wants a "free" community...sure, don't we all?! And wants it in the city...I don't understand his logic. We can sit around until we manifest it, but that might take awhile.
You feel like he is taking advantage of you because he is.
The man is not contributing to the support of his children. I'd like to see him manifest some child support, at a minimum.
I would be very intentional about walking away from this person and any community that not only tolerates but supports this kind of behavior.
If he wants to be supported by a spiritual community he can take buddhist vows or join a monastery or whatever. I think he would find they require him to work a lot harder than his current situation demands.
I lost support for his choices at the point where he is not putting the children first. Every other choice is his and if you want to accept them. Supporting kids is above every other choice a person can make. imo
That sounded harsh after reviewing. I am sure he is nice and wonderful or you would not want to be around him, but I still feel what I stated.
IshbelRobertson
3-31-15, 6:47am
There's an American term which (IMO) sums up this man. He's a 'freeloader'.
That is very selfish and irresponsible behavior. He expects to be taken care of by everyone. I can even assume that these children he doesn't support now will one day be asked by him to 'take care of your father'.
Nothing but trouble.
yes i have seen this type, i lived in boulder for 13 years. the hippy new agey idea that the universe will take care of thing is usually held by the people who are letting someone else take care of it. it is a pretty strong belief once they get to this point. there is a section of new age thought that is very selfish, taking care of ourselves is not easy, and it is used by some to just get out of what is hard or uncomfortable. meanwhile i also belong to groups and we have a buddhist nun teacher who is an alms mendicant. it takes money to support our group and her even if she lives very very simply. some of us contribute money and others contribute work to make sure she is taken care of because she has dedicated herself to teaching. Sounds like he has dedicated himself to mooching and twisting things around.
I've found that some people who make such radical changes can make other radical changes in the opposite direction.
Yeah, I tend to feel like the others, that he's a freeloader. What he seems to take, is much more than what he gives.
And it sounds like his children don't matter to him. He sounds mostly like he's into selfishness.
I would drop him like a hot potato! And stop feeling guilty about the feelings you're having about him.
RUN! In Yiddish, he would be called a "shnorrer" immediately!
I don't like this selfish feeling I have that says he's taking advantage of me.
Listen to your gut. We all still have to live in the physical world as it exists no matter how "spiritual" we are. He may not even realize/acknowledge it but he is mostly dependent on others for his support. I would guess he is a bit charismatic and therefore gets what he wants out of people and situations. You deserve better.
He can do whatever he wants. But when he is upset that you don't pay his way ... Well then it becomes ridiculous.
You can simply tell him that he is too focused on money when it upsets him that you won't give him any of your money. Or housing. Or food. Or anything else that money can buy.
My son (27) is very much like your friend, but the main difference is my son supports himself. He does seasonal work and saves what he earns to support himself over the year. When he comes home to visit he does quite a bit around the house to make up for staying with me, using my car and eating my food, etc. His does not live off others, but covers his own expenses.
If you friend is helping you in ways that would be a trade off, then it would be a mutual agreement. If he is just taking, then he is being selfish. One of my son's friends sounds like your friend; he will take from anyone who lets him. My son does not let him so they have a more fair arrangement when they are together.
i know people like Birdie's son who make this work. they live very simple lives and are conscious of what others are doing as well, how to support, etc. i make things for people whenever i can, rather than spending a lot of money. it sounds like this friend is using spiritual terms to cover up the ways he is using people.
A guy like this sounds like fun - to hang out with from time to time. But given all the differences I wouldn't take it any further. Enjoy his company, barter a meal for some gutter cleaning, that kind of thing and enjoy his company for what it is. I would.
He sounds like a grifter with a good cover story; I'd run as if chased by demons, personally.
Teacher Terry
3-31-15, 2:26pm
If he was like Birdie's son that would be fine. But he is taking advantage of people. Not supporting his kids is bad.
ApatheticNoMore
3-31-15, 2:39pm
If you friend is helping you in ways that would be a trade off, then it would be a mutual agreement. If he is just taking, then he is being selfish. One of my son's friends sounds like your friend; he will take from anyone who lets him.
I think his lifestyle would be a lot more acceptable if he didn't have kids under 18. I mean that ones a killer. If he did all this as a childless person or after the kids had grown up, oh well, it's his life.
Also if he really truly believes in the gift economy he should be willing to help out sometimes, even if he has no particular skills, it might just be offering to clean the bathroom, to rake leaves, etc.. (help anyone able bodied can offer).
So he wants a better world, a different world, but it must be worked for. Not necessary worked for The Man or for the Legal Tender or within The System (not "work" as it is defined), but worked for nonetheless. What does he do? Does he volunteer? Is he at least always willing to help out a friend who needs help moving or anyway else he can etc.? There's a quote of Wilhelm Reich's that pertains, but I don't have it right now. Wilhelm Reich was advocating for worker ownership of workplaces, for socialism (radical enough for your friend?), but made the point such a better world couldn't be achieved by pety people, by people who would take advantage of the lovely custom of the smorgasbord and use it to stuff their face without gratitude, by people not willing to work for a better world.
It's probably the extremes that need to be avoided. Your friend is easy to have sympathy for, because maybe we should be much more generous than current society usually encourages. So the world may be too extreme in the other direction. I don't think we should look at everything we give to others as taking away from our freedom (oh I could have saved the money for retirement etc.), because I don't think it really works that way, that's an incredibly narrow myopic view. And if a friend needs a couch to sleep on for awhile maybe it should be readily offered. But then ON THE OTHER HAND there are the permanent free loader type that are incapable of doing anything for themselves and one has to extricate oneself from that. In that case it's idealism, and the idealism may be correct, as a rationalization (sigh for problems that may be worthy of pity, maybe inability to face the world as it is which may have a lot of deep causes - he sounds like he hasn't even honestly dealt with the end of his marriage. But regardless, and pitiful as that may be, it's not YOUR problem.)
A guy like this sounds like fun - to hang out with from time to time. But given all the differences I wouldn't take it any further. Enjoy his company, barter a meal for some gutter cleaning, that kind of thing and enjoy his company for what it is. I would.
yea agreed. I mean I can see the appeal of a relationship with a rebel if one oneself is not one, they seem so free, and one wishes one had the guts to live like they do and take the chances they do, but it doesn't mean such a relationship will work. But just being friends, nothing more, might. And if he really believes in the gift economy he will barter like this.
Wish him well, and send him on his way.
My community is full of people like this. They tend to get upset when the patience and caring of others finally runs out.
ToomuchStuff
3-31-15, 5:01pm
You need to gift him his freedom, the freedom to fail, be homeless, etc.
ButterflyBreath
3-31-15, 5:05pm
I guess the reason I say I feel guilty is that just recently and right before I met him I was thinking “Wouldn’t the world be a better place if those who have extra money every month would just share it with those having a hard time?” But meeting him has brought up a whole new level of questions, thoughts and feelings about it. It’s not that simple. Or it doesn’t seem that simple. Our money is had by giving our life.
So to answer what he does, he volunteers full time for this city gardening project, and to do odds and ends for people, but if they offer money he won’t take it unless his cell phone is due for renewal, or he has an immediate need for money. He’s not lazy. He dedicates his time and energy to his gardening project to help others have gardens and eventually the project is supposed to feed everyone in the city (yes I know, a little bit of magical thinking since he does not have a plan on how that could happen). He is very appreciative and does acknowledge that I help him, which is nice. He probably would do anything I ask him to do (except get a job).
Honestly, since he doesn’t ask for much, I feel he has come into my life to stir up these money issues and we have been brought together for mutual personal growth. I see now though, that I can’t be in a dating relationship or be a couple with him because that’s a privilege for people who can share things mutually and I think I would feel taken advantage of in a bigger way. So it’s good that we have gotten close so I can see all this. He has a lot of good qualities though, and I still want to be his friend, so I want to deal with this.
I think one of the issues it is bringing up is that I apparently don’t value what he does for me as having worth, or at least not as much as money would. He likes to cook. Well so do I and I don’t mind cooking either so it’s almost like he’s taking something from me that I like to do! I maybe see money and his acts of service as not equal, because no matter how much he cooks or does this or that for me, I still have to go to work and make money to pay for things. And last night I realized I basically have to choose between being with him, or “leaving the system myself” by getting out of debt faster. So that’s why it seems offensive to me that he expects me to pay for everything because he is prolonging my need to be in the system.
Interestingly, he and his ex are still legally married. He said it gives him more “parental rights” than if they were to get divorced. I agree with you there. He should be helping his ex out with the kids. That is shitty in my view. I personally don’t have kids and I don’t want any of my own because I want to be free to help others, so I never had any. Once you have them though, do the right thing, ya know?! He’s helping others but doesn’t take responsibility for his kids.
Thanks for your insights!
ApatheticNoMore
3-31-15, 5:28pm
He dedicates his time and energy to his gardening project to help others have gardens and eventually the project is supposed to feed everyone in the city (yes I know, a little bit of magical thinking since he does not have a plan on how that could happen).
a bit, not necessarily, I mean it depends on if the city can be fed that way, most places not entirely, certainly not a big city entirely, and you'd have to get a lot of people on board regardless. But it's not a new idea and it's not like people haven't attempted it before.
I mostly think I'm stuck in the system regardless, no debt, but it costs money to live, so if I can give a dollar to the homeless or something why not? But I'm not giving everything I have away to charity or anything. I think you mostly need to just stop paying his expenses that are money, maybe just barter with him if you want.
"He claims to be highly spiritual" - which I expect is something almost all highly spiritual folks don't do.
It sounds like he's created a pleasant (for him) little reality for himself. Participate where you want, and don't when it does not suit you. You're never obligated. And if he ever makes you feel like you are, you are being used.
Couldn't have said it better Creaker.
"He claims to be highly spiritual" - which I expect is something almost all highly spiritual folks don't do.
It sounds like he's created a pleasant (for him) little reality for himself. Participate where you want, and don't when it does not suit you. You're never obligated. And if he ever makes you feel like you are, you are being used.
Agreed, nicely said, and someone upthread said pretty much the same thing: enjoy his company as much as you can within the narrow boundaries you have to set so that he doesn't take advantage of you.
My sweetie knows someone whose quote we both love:
"Anyone who says money's not important doesn't have any of their own and wants yours"...
I guess the reason I say I feel guilty is that just recently and right before I met him I was thinking “Wouldn’t the world be a better place if those who have extra money every month would just share it with those having a hard time?” But meeting him has brought up a whole new level of questions, thoughts and feelings about it. It’s not that simple. Or it doesn’t seem that simple. Our money is had by giving our life. ...
Maybe that's why he's in your life: to make you think about those things.
Chicken lady
4-12-15, 9:08pm
still being married gives you the "parental right" to not pay child support.
My oldest daughter's s.o. is a bit like this guy - charming, people just give him stuff, he crashes on couches, he just moved in with my dd, he has some pretty strong feelings about capitalism. BUT, he is in school, he wants to contribute to the household, he cleans, he cooks, he does the laundry, and dd hates doing all that. He is going to put in a garden. And dd told him he had to get a job and helped him find one that he feels good about. It's part time, but that's ok. dd likes her job and is well paid. She told me the last time she was over - "we go to the grocery store, and [s.o.] sees something he thinks would be really good, and he asks 'can we buy this?' and I say 'yes! yes, we can.' It feels good every time."
That's how you know you aren't being taken advantage of.
ApatheticNoMore
4-12-15, 10:54pm
"we go to the grocery store, and [s.o.] sees something he thinks would be really good, and he asks 'can we buy this?' and I say 'yes! yes, we can.' It feels good every time."
must be nice, to have a sugar momma
I think the problem with 'gifters' is, by and large, the feeling that when they've given what seems like enough or the right stuff to them, they expect someone else, some mythical parent figure, to pick up the slack. Which might just work out with a large group of generous people to trade off that slack between. The concept of the gift economy might work, but it would take a non competitive mind set and a lot of people willing to sometimes do more, in exchange for sometimes doing a little less. In a group of two, it's simply unfair to 'find your bliss' and leave everything unappealing to the other person with some convenient assumption that this is the Universe at work, giving everyone what they want. It's telling that the 'help' he provides is primarily doing your most enjoyable, creatively expressive chores. Maybe he could clean your bathroom while you make the dinner?
Ok, I'm mean. You say, "Whenever I bring it up (the whole money issue) he turns it around on me and says that I think I need money or feel this way because it's my conditioning". I think you should tell him you're ready to try to believe, and that you've decided not to spend any money for the next [pay period, month, whatever] to see what gifts and plans the Universe holds for you. I mean who knows, I see one of two possibilities: the Universe indeed sends a miracle and you discover something you didn't know about finding your own sweet spot, or your friend becomes strangely unavailable when there's no milk of human kindness flowing from your heart wallet. Which would be sad, but useful to know.
Chicken lady
4-13-15, 6:39am
ApatheticNoMore, her working friends say it must be nice to have a wife. She's not buying him caviar and champaigne, she's buying artichokes and out of season fruit. then they go home and he cooks, they eat, and he does the dishes. He has no phone and a ten year old dodge that his aunt gave him as an early graduation present.
My point is that my dd feels like she and her so are taking care of each other. He brings things to the relationship that make her happy and she feels good about being able to provide the things they need money for. The original poster does not feel good about it or happy about this guy's contributions, so in her case, he's taking advantage.
Yes, Chicken Lady, I think the difference between your dd's SO and the OP's friend comes down to this: whether the community / group / relationship is financially traditional or not, people have to put in what's wanted and needed, not just what they'd like to be putting in.
catherine
4-13-15, 12:41pm
This is a very interesting topic to me, because I am into the gift economy, after having read Charles Eisenstein, and I also find people like Suelo, Mark Boyle, and Heidimarie Schwermer to be very compelling.
Part of the problem is how ingrained our thoughts about money are--and unfortunately it's hard to get past it. This might color your take on this story, and you'd be more apt to call this guy a "loser" or a "parasite."
That being said, the gift economy should not be about evading responsibility. If I were about to embark on a moneyless path, I would by all means make sure my debts were paid--and that includes child support FOR SURE. And I would also bend over backwards to come to an equitable agreement about what a moneyless living arrangement would be: like, "ButterflyBreath, in exchange for me getting [whatever] for free, I will clean the house/cut the grass/make you dinner 5 nights a week."
I know how you feel, because as much as I love the Gift Economy in theory, I have a similar situation in which my BIL is over our house for dinner ALL the time. I never ask him for money, because he makes minimum wage. But nonetheless, he never offers--occasionally he'll bring over desert, but only because one time DH got mad at him and said, "Geez at least can't you bring us desert once in a while?" So he took that literally, even though I don't often eat desert. Or he'll bring DH cigars, which drives me crazy because that food is coming out of MY paycheck.. so I know how it is when you feel like you might be petty. But it's just really about simple fairness.
I'm also a little suspect of people who hang their hat on "spiritual vibes" but don't recognize common civility.
If you like him, hang out with him. If you start feeling put upon, can find ways to bargain with him, so you at least get something in return? If he's really as spiritual as he says he is, he should listen to you and take your feelings seriously. If he's not that spiritual, he'll throw it back on your "faulty" perceptions about money.
Teacher Terry
4-13-15, 7:20pm
I have a good friend that saw his pay cut in half the last few years & I invite him for dinner about 1x/week. HOwever, once in a while he will bring something such as salad or dessert. One time he brought the whole meal. HOwever, if the person is never contributing I would feel used. Chicken Lady your daughter & her boyfriend sound like they have a good balance.
I guess I don't see the problem either you put up with his behavior or you don't. If he doesn't live by your standards then cut him lose. I enjoy interesting people's company and sometimes I will pay for that privilege if I feel the cost is worth it. If they aren't worth it I would move on with out regrets. You shouldn't make assumptions about his relationship with his children though, that is between him, his wife and those kids. He will have to deal with the coincidences himself.
I see a discordance between demands for parental rights and deliberate flunking of parental responsibilities. I don't think spirituality and morality are separate states. I think you can't have one without the other. Also, being legally married to a conveniently absent wife frees this guy up to milk other women without ever making a commitment.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.