View Full Version : Cop asked to leave cafe because he made a customer "uncomfortable"
I just saw this article posted to one of the firearms forums I frequent and immediately thought of Rob. I suspect he would approve.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/business_increases_at_southeas.html
I'm not surprised where it happened - Portland, in a vegan coffee shop, no less. It's a 4 year old story, but seems timely with the current happenings.
I'm waiting to see if the "no politicking" signs go back up in businesses in my hometown of Portsmouth, NH as the primaries ramp up again. There were incidents last time around that made candidates unwelcome in some of the eating establishments there.
gimmethesimplelife
4-2-15, 10:40pm
I just saw this article posted to one of the firearms forums I frequent and immediately thought of Rob. I suspect he would approve.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/business_increases_at_southeas.html
I'm not surprised where it happened - Portland, in a vegan coffee shop, no less. It's a 4 year old story, but seems timely with the current happenings.I have mixed feelings about this one - interestingly enough, too, I have lived in Portland, OR, for 5.5 years before and I can see this happening there.
Recently I had lunch at a mostly vegetarian cafe here in Phoenix and it was past the lunch rush and the cafe was mostly empty. Just as the counter person set my Greek Salad in front of me, a Phoenix Police Officer walked in and went to the counter to order and ending out sitting close to me. He did not look at me nor hassle me nor cause any issues but you'd better well believe I was uncomfortable and that my meal experience was ruined. Ever since witnessing the Phoenix police illegally and brutally assaulting my Guatemalan neighbors I will never trust the police again. Trust towards the police has been permanently severed for me and I see them now as potential thugs (not all are thugs, no, my point is that some engage in this behavior and since I have witnessed it I can't deny it) to be avoided at all costs and not to believe anything they may say. So, given this was my frame of mind, of course my meal was ruined. I was going to get up and leave but no, I'll be damned if I get up and leave due to a cop. Not happening, my rights matter.
All that said, I understand that this cop has rights too, and he did nothing out of line during his time at the cafe. Which brings me to a point about American police I thought of this morning and that I have not brought up on this board yet -
One big huge problem with the American police is - THEY HAVE A REPUTATION WHICH PRECEDES THEM. No one has mentioned this yet but this is why I was so unnerved in the cafe and why my meal was ruined even though the cop did nothing out of line. I'd be willing to bet this is a two way street, too. To cops, I'd be wiling to bet that lower income neighborhoods have a reputation that precedes them. Of course my neighbors and I feel justified in our views of the police, and I'd be willing to bet that the cops feel justified with their take, too.
I don't know of any way to fix this - other than video and lawsuits against them when they cross the line. And next time, I think I'd be best off leaving the cafe.....It's giving them too much to let them ruin my meal due to the rep they have, that they represent, by their mere presence. But I'd never ask for a cop to leave, either - I'm afraid such could be used against me somehow. Portland, OR, and the way people tend to think there is a bit different from Phoenix, AZ and the way people tend to think here, too. I do remember during my time in Portland I was not so afraid of the police - they honestly seemed to have some respect and more importantly, they seemed to know when to stop and not cross the line. This is all I ask for from the police - don't cross the line into illegal behavior, make some commitment towards this with pre-determined amounts of settlement money for violations, and then I might be able, after several years at a minimum, to extend them some benefit of the doubt and at least neutrality.
Witnessing my neighbors assaulted for no reason by the police really cemented my views of law enforcement. Brutally breaking the law like that in plain view? Any thinking person would never see the police the same way again in my book. As things are now, at this moment, in regards to law enforcement vs. the general public, I don't see much hope for change overall. Rob
I came back to add something. I'm going to alter my stance somewhat about not having much hope for change overall - I do see hope for more victims standing up to the police and going after huge settlements for illegal assualts/attacks by the police. Eventually I believe the money involved will be so great that change will have to begin to happen as the payoffs earned (and the global reputation earned via the large payoffs) will become unsustainable. So yes - I do see hope but not right away.
Simplemind
4-2-15, 11:56pm
http://www.oregonlive.com/dining/index.ssf/2015/03/red_and_black_cafe_announces_c.html
I have never known a business in Portland or the surrounding areas that didn't support and encourage law enforcement to be their customers. I have known businesses that discriminated to be shunned.
Just looked at the photo, and I would not want to patronize that business, or be associated with Those People in any way. Too unsavory. The cop probably went in there to get coffee, just to see what was going on, and the guy kicked him out because he realized it. Plus, the guy was prolly in a bad mood on account of business being slow.
I have mixed feelings about this one - interestingly enough, too, I have lived in Portland, OR, for 5.5 years before and I can see this happening there.
Recently I had lunch at a mostly vegetarian cafe here in Phoenix and it was past the lunch rush and the cafe was mostly empty. Just as the counter person set my Greek Salad in front of me, a Phoenix Police Officer walked in and went to the counter to order and ending out sitting close to me. He did not look at me nor hassle me nor cause any issues but you'd better well believe I was uncomfortable and that my meal experience was ruined. Ever since witnessing the Phoenix police illegally and brutally assaulting my Guatemalan neighbors I will never trust the police again. Trust towards the police has been permanently severed for me and I see them now as potential thugs (not all are thugs, no, my point is that some engage in this behavior and since I have witnessed it I can't deny it) to be avoided at all costs and not to believe anything they may say. So, given this was my frame of mind, of course my meal was ruined. I was going to get up and leave but no, I'll be damned if I get up and leave due to a cop. Not happening, my rights matter.
All that said, I understand that this cop has rights too, and he did nothing out of line during his time at the cafe. Which brings me to a point about American police I thought of this morning and that I have not brought up on this board yet -
One big huge problem with the American police is - THEY HAVE A REPUTATION WHICH PRECEDES THEM. No one has mentioned this yet but this is why I was so unnerved in the cafe and why my meal was ruined even though the cop did nothing out of line. I'd be willing to bet this is a two way street, too. To cops, I'd be wiling to bet that lower income neighborhoods have a reputation that precedes them. Of course my neighbors and I feel justified in our views of the police, and I'd be willing to bet that the cops feel justified with their take, too.
I don't know of any way to fix this - other than video and lawsuits against them when they cross the line. And next time, I think I'd be best off leaving the cafe.....It's giving them too much to let them ruin my meal due to the rep they have, that they represent, by their mere presence. But I'd never ask for a cop to leave, either - I'm afraid such could be used against me somehow. Portland, OR, and the way people tend to think there is a bit different from Phoenix, AZ and the way people tend to think here, too. I do remember during my time in Portland I was not so afraid of the police - they honestly seemed to have some respect and more importantly, they seemed to know when to stop and not cross the line. This is all I ask for from the police - don't cross the line into illegal behavior, make some commitment towards this with pre-determined amounts of settlement money for violations, and then I might be able, after several years at a minimum, to extend them some benefit of the doubt and at least neutrality.
Witnessing my neighbors assaulted for no reason by the police really cemented my views of law enforcement. Brutally breaking the law like that in plain view? Any thinking person would never see the police the same way again in my book. As things are now, at this moment, in regards to law enforcement vs. the general public, I don't see much hope for change overall. Rob
I came back to add something. I'm going to alter my stance somewhat about not having much hope for change overall - I do see hope for more victims standing up to the police and going after huge settlements for illegal assualts/attacks by the police. Eventually I believe the money involved will be so great that change will have to begin to happen as the payoffs earned (and the global reputation earned via the large payoffs) will become unsustainable. So yes - I do see hope but not right away.
What do you think about people that feel the same way towards Blacks, Hispanics, gays?
Not sure about the need to post this old story on Easter weekend. That said, I wave to police as they drive by, nod a greeting if I see them in coffee shops or on the street and receive a wave or nod back - the same as if I was greeting anyone else during my day.
"What you hold in thought, you bring into your experience" has been my policy and practice. I would lose substantially in my life if I stayed angry at anyone and projected that anger onto others. I choose not to have that loss but YMMV.
"We would prefer that there be some practical alternative to police like community forums for restorative justice, for example."
This is how civilizations fail.
"We would prefer that there be some practical alternative to police like community forums for restorative justice, for example."
This is how civilizations fail.
Sounds like pure democracy in action to me, although pure democracy is best described as tyranny of the majority.
What do you think about people that feel the same way towards Blacks, Hispanics, gays?
Well put dmc.
Sounds like pure democracy in action to me, although pure democracy is best described as tyranny of the majority.
I actually think it was best described by Winston Churchill
"...it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"
I actually think it was best described by Winston Churchill
"...it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"Perhaps, but we're talking about two different things. A pure democracy is a system whereby power is exercised directly by the people. A typical democracy maintains a representative form of government. Some may not grasp the distinction, but it's huge.
Last night, I popped into the local burrito/taco joint to grab a quick dinner before drill. Two sheriff's deputies strolled in, and sat down, one on either side of me at the counter. "Hello, Doug, hello Ray" I said nervously, as they were eyeing my green chili burrito with typical police brutality...
Doug bought my dinner for me, since I made him dinner at the fire station the other day, I wish I'd gotten that abuse of power on video so I could have posted it to Youtube.
When I left, and went to the fire station for water supply/tender shuttle drill, Officer Doug followed me the entire way, just waiting for me to make a mistake. Clearly profiling. When I pulled into the station and got ready to don my firefighting gear, the Sheriff got out of his car, opened up the trunk, and pulled out a big red bag. Glaring at me, he unzipped the bag, and pulled out his own firefighting gear, and said "OK, boy, draw!", and we each started suiting up. I beat him with a time of 42 seconds to his 51.
Then we walked over to a shiny red truck, got in, and started our drill.
I felt so uncomfortable the whole time. Those firefighting suits can really be unpleasant after a good burrito.
I surprised a CBP officer recently (she was an unexpected attendee at a seminar I was at) by asking her what type of pistol she carried on duty. Once she got over her surprise, we had a nice chat about shooting.
And Sheriff Ray, don't get me started on him. Why just the other day I walked into my favorite bar here, the Lower Tavern (to distinguish it from the Upper Tavern), only to find Ray atop of one of the bar patrons on the ground, brutally using his fists on the poor fellow's chest. I could hear ribs cracking! One of the other patrons said Ray had been doing this for 5 minutes before I came in. The guy on the ground looked like he was just about dead.
Another 9 minutes of CPR from the rest of us who showed up, and application of the AED from Ray's cruiser's trunk managed to save the guy's life. Good thing Ray initiated CPR as soon as he saw the fellow drop to the ground, when he had wandered into the bar at closing time for his ritual bar-check to make sure nobody needed a friendly ride home.
Brutality!
he had wandered into the bar at closing time for his ritual bar-check to make sure nobody needed a friendly ride home.
And profiling!
ApatheticNoMore
4-3-15, 2:14pm
Not sure about the need to post this old story on Easter weekend.
hey it's a 4 year old story but it provides something to get angry about, that's the whole point. A 4 year old story about a portland anarchist coffee shop (whole issues with the fbi and so on with that community) as if it's vastly symbolic of something much larger (the red and the black, there is also of course a famous novel of that name).
And hey a free slam at vegans because them vegans are all the same .... so no wonder, what can you expect from vegans, they don't even enjoy a nice steak. If a political site is suddenly posting this they are playing you - the past always matters, but seeking out 4 year old little tiny stories to make a point is cherry picking. If it's just some random poster, they are stirring things up, but people will.
Since we're telling police stories: Years ago, I was the Controller of a county in central Wisconsin. I was having a beer with our Sheriff, and asked him if he wanted to order a pizza. He told me he seldom dined out locally because so many kitchen staff had spent time in his jail. That made me realize that these guys often pay a price beyond what you might ordinarily think of for what they do.
So when some morally superior, easily aggrieved twit claims to be "uncomfortable", it makes me think that people who treat cops like that don't deserve to have any.
So when some morally superior, easily aggrieved twit claims to be "uncomfortable", it makes me think that people who treat cops like that don't deserve to have any.
Rob says "of course my meal was ruined" by a police officer simply and politely sharing a restaurant with him. An officer who every day likely puts his life, health, and sanity on the line to protect people like Rob from terrible terrible things done by terrible terrible people.
I almost don't understand why police even bother to show up in neighborhoods full of Robs.
Rob says "of course my meal was ruined" by a police officer simply and politely sharing a restaurant with him. An officer who every day likely puts his life, health, and sanity on the line to protect people like Rob from terrible terrible things done by terrible terrible people.
I almost don't understand why police even bother to show up in neighborhoods full of Robs.
I was referring to the pusillanimous Portland peapod purveyor; but I would certainly agree with you that anyone having trouble enjoying his kale just because there are cops in the vicinity is the one with the problem.
I myself have on occasion felt ill-used by nuns, drill sergeants, lawyers and software developers. However, I still respect their roles in society and would never allow the sight of one to affect my appetite.
gimmethesimplelife
4-3-15, 4:32pm
What do you think about people that feel the same way towards Blacks, Hispanics, gays?I'll grant you here that on the surface you have a very valid point - especially given that I am in one of the three groups you mention. The only problem is that I have not seen any blacks, Hispanics, or gays wearing a badge, sworn to protect and serve, paid via taxpayers, and collecting a generous pension after X number of years of service brutally and illegally assault my Guatemalan neighbors = I have only witnessed the Phoenix police engaging in such an activity. Dig a little deeper than the surface and perhaps you'll see my point?
I mean no rudeness when I say what I am about to say.....seriously. I often wish I could live on the surface and not dig deeper than your above statement about blacks, Hispanics, or gays. I'd be willing to bet life would be easier for me if I could but I am unable to live that way. No fault of yours, that's just how I'm wired I guess. Once again, I'll even agree that on the surface only you have a very good point. Rob
How do you know the police officer involved in the assault you witnessed was not gay?
gimmethesimplelife
4-3-15, 4:45pm
Rob says "of course my meal was ruined" by a police officer simply and politely sharing a restaurant with him. An officer who every day likely puts his life, health, and sanity on the line to protect people like Rob from terrible terrible things done by terrible terrible people.
I almost don't understand why police even bother to show up in neighborhoods full of Robs.Bae, the problem with your statement here is that police misdeeds = such as the police brutally and illegally attacking my Guatemalan neighbors = such behavior has consequences. And not just the large settlement my neighbors were able to get = I am now unable to trust the police period. If asked questions by a police officer, I will show ID as I am legally required to do - and then will refuse to cooperate stating that I am afraid of the police and continually asking Am I free to go after repeating that I have nothing to say and that I don't care to speak.
The police have earned my non-compliance. Period. No one here seems to understand this. For me to cooperate with the police having seen what I have seen is to approve of their brutal and illegal attack on my neighbors and I won't live with that - I deserve better. Period. To cooperate with the police in my case is to also state that the illegal attack on the elderly man from India in Alabama was acceptable, or the illegal attack and murder of a homeless man in Albuquerque by the Albuquerque police was acceptable. It isn't to me and I won't condone such, I couldn't live with myself if I did. By extension to cooperate with police is to condone the arrests and prison sentences of people who were innocent and who have served long prison terms for crimes they did not commit who have been released via DNA evidence. I can't condone this either.
Point being - in my case the police have very much earned my non cooperation. I and my neighbors in this corner of the world deserve better than always being a potential victim of the police and of the revenue hungry "justice system". Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-3-15, 4:48pm
How do you know the police officer involved in the assault you witnessed was not gay?I don't know this. I'll give you that. If he was gay, he still was/is a Phoenix police officer who brutally and illegally attacked my Guatemalan neighbors. Police officer comes first over being gay in this case as most gay men are not wearing a badge and sworn to serve and protect. Rob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posttraumatic_stress_disorder
gimmethesimplelife
4-3-15, 5:19pm
And profiling!Here's a case of racial profiling in action. In 2007 I took a trip down to Nogales, Arizona, by bus and walked across the border to Mexico to save a boatload of cash on dental work. On the way back, on the US side, there is a checkpoint some number of miles into the US. The Border Patrol agents wanted all the passengers to get off the bus at this checkpoint. They had the drug dogs enter the bus and they checked everyone's paperwork very intensively expect mine and one other passenger's.
So - here's the $64,000 question - what was the race of the two people whose ID wasn't even looked at/asked for? Bingo - I and the other passenger were Caucasian. When the Border Patrol Agent approached I had my passport ready to show him and he said, "You're OK" and didn't even look at it, not even a quick glance. I can not begin to express how disgusted I am with America over that - I only wish certain posters here could have experienced this first hand as I did. Racial profiling is real and does indeed take place. My question is - how does one forgive America for it's hypocrisy in regards to this? Rob
One man patrols neighborhoods where he is often despised, accepting risk, insult and an immense apparatus of formal and informal second-guessing for decisions he must make quickly under pressure.
Another man dislikes the first on sight despite knowing nothing about him, and has made clear he would under no circumstances do anything to cooperate with him as he attempts to protect his life and property.
Who is the better man?
gimmethesimplelife
4-3-15, 7:53pm
One man patrols neighborhoods where he is often despised, accepting risk, insult and an immense apparatus of formal and informal second-guessing for decisions he must make quickly under pressure.
Another man dislikes the first on sight despite knowing nothing about him, and has made clear he would under no circumstances do anything to cooperate with him as he attempts to protect his life and property.
Who is the better man?Given what I have seen with my own eyes that the police are capable of, I'd have to say I couldn't make a blanket statement either way. I'd have to do this one on a case by case basis. In some cases, the cop would be the better of the two, if they were in it for the right reasons and not abusing their power/crossing the line into illegal behavior and feeding the terror so many have of the police. In some cases, the person who refused to cooperate with the cop would be the much better person, especially when dealing with a power tripping cop that is crossing the line into illegal and questionable behavior. Once again, life is complex - I can't do a simple blanket answer on this one but would need to review this on a case by case basis. Especially with some high profile cases recently where officers have been arrested and charged for their illegal behavior in their dealings with the public. Certainly trash exists on both sides of this equation, and I believe there is decency in a few scattered cops out there so I'd have to say there is some decency on both sides of this equation too. Rob
No one here seems to understand this.
It's not a matter of understanding, just agreement. I saw a waiter drop food and put it back on the plate and serve it to people. I've heard about waiters putting unsavory things in food to get back at customers (don't ask what's in the cream of mushroom soup). But I am still capable of giving each waiter I work with the benefit of the doubt, am not traumatized to the point of neurosis by the sight of them, and don't run around like chicken little saying everyone should video record every interaction with a waiter to be sure they don't **** up your order and make equivocal statements that maybe just maybe there could be a decent person who works as a waiter somewhere. You really need to seek help.
gimmethesimplelife
4-3-15, 10:22pm
It's not a matter of understanding, just agreement. I saw a waiter drop food and put it back on the plate and serve it to people. I've heard about waiters putting unsavory things in food to get back at customers (don't ask what's in the cream of mushroom soup). But I am still capable of giving each waiter I work with the benefit of the doubt, am not traumatized to the point of neurosis by the sight of them, and don't run around like chicken little saying everyone should video record every interaction with a waiter to be sure they don't **** up your order and make equivocal statements that maybe just maybe there could be a decent person who works as a waiter somewhere. You really need to seek help.Waiters can't arrest you, haul you in to jail, shoot you and kill you and possibly get away with it. Waiters tend not to carry guns (at least in the workplace) are constantly and continuously vulnerable to any perception or issue a guest has, whether it's true or not. Dealing with a cop, the cop is in charge and expects to be in charge of the situation - a waiter truly is at the public's mercy. You can complain about your waiter to a manager and get the waiter in trouble - a cop is going to be shielded from public complaints more often than not. There are huge differences between dealing with a waiter and a cop, seriously.
Though to be fair, litigation when a cop goes too far will tend to yield you much more money and publicity then litigating against a waiter or a restaurant chain. So there's one plus.
About needing help.....As I keep saying, I'm not the only one out there who thinks this way. Perhaps in your life my beliefs are out there - where I live it's pretty much expected that you think this way - the police have a reputation of corruption and illegal behavior that precedes them to this level of distrust from those they "protect and serve" - sarcasm very much intended.
I find it amazing that some of the posters here seem to be fine accepting brutally illegal behavior on the part of the police but when someone like myself sees it completely differently after seeing first hand what the police are capable of - I'm the one who's wrong, or off, or my beliefs are not valid. Pretty scary stuff in a time when officers are even starting to be arrested and charged for going too far - yet the tendency to believe the police are right continues.....I'm glad I don't think that way is all I can say. Seeing the police brutally and illegally attack my neighbors ruined the ability to ever trust the police for life. This to me seems very logical given what I have seen and experienced. I'm only responding to the reality of police misbehavior that I have witnessed. To let it go would be to condone it, and no way am I going to live with that. I care about people far too much to ever condone brutal and illegal police behavior. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-3-15, 10:32pm
It's not a matter of understanding, just agreement. I saw a waiter drop food and put it back on the plate and serve it to people. I've heard about waiters putting unsavory things in food to get back at customers (don't ask what's in the cream of mushroom soup). But I am still capable of giving each waiter I work with the benefit of the doubt, am not traumatized to the point of neurosis by the sight of them, and don't run around like chicken little saying everyone should video record every interaction with a waiter to be sure they don't **** up your order and make equivocal statements that maybe just maybe there could be a decent person who works as a waiter somewhere. You really need to seek help.I forgot to mention that I have known waiters who have spit in food and done other disgusting things with a guests food - this is almost always a case of the server striking back for being treated horribly by a guest. I don't agree with it and I have not done it myself (though over the years I've really wanted to a few times) but I can understand how being treated horribly by a guest you are serving would drive a server to do this. I completely understand even though I don't approve. I have however wished guests death before (under my breath of course) and I have been able to milk horrible treatment in the past when I've had decent managers for time off I've wanted or for a better schedule. Doing nasty things with a guest's food to retaliate I can certainly understand but what's really in it for you? Much better to use it to get something you want instead - i.e. time off you want or Mondays off for awhile or something similar. Though I also understand that as a server you are so vulnerable and so powerless it's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment and not think logically about how you can use being treated horribly - such as being treated in such a way that would get you fired from many office jobs or at least written up - to your advantage to get something you want. Sometimes you just have to make the most of what you have to work with. Rob
There are huge differences between dealing with a waiter and a cop, seriously.
Absolutely, cops have a much bigger impact, for better or worse. Usually for the better, but the point wasn't to equate their contributions to society or to condone bad actions, it was an (apparently ineffective) attempt to get you to start realizing bad acts by a few people in any occupation aren't necessarily cause for a meltdown around all the others. Most people probably feel a little tension when they see a police car pull behind them in traffic. I like to avoid dealing with cops and have seen some cops do some bad things, but overall when looking at it rationally it seems so clear the good outweighs the bad it is hard to support your overreaction.
Wow, now I find out about waiters. Did you whip out your phone for evidence? Who knows what diseases could be passed along. I hope they were caught and fired imediatly, and then prosecuted and sued.
And to to wish death, really. You take an order and bring out food and drinks. How hard is that?
The police have to actually be concerned with being killed on the job from the thugs out there. Sure you can pick out a few out of the thousands out there, but most are good people. Think how much real stress that they have, are they going to go out on a call about some poor waiter who is being attacked by the local thugs and be ambushed.
Hopefully your community can find a way to have the police stay away. I'm sure that would work out best for everyone.
Absolutely, cops have a much bigger impact, for better or worse. Usually for the better, but the point wasn't to equate their contributions to society or to condone bad actions, it was an (apparently ineffective) attempt to get you to start realizing bad acts by a few people in any occupation aren't necessarily cause for a meltdown around all the others. Most people probably feel a little tension when they see a police car pull behind them in traffic. I like to avoid dealing with cops and have seen some cops do some bad things, but overall when looking at it rationally it seems so clear the good outweighs the bad it is hard to support your overreaction.
Now we know from a waiter that waiters do disgusting things with food. What can we do? Waiters and servers must be held accountable. We must be able to keep them from working and away from our food. Loss of jobs without the ability to work in the food industry again. After long prison time of course. I now know that waiters are scum, I'll start treating them accordingly, that is if I can even deal with them again. I'm just sorry it took me so long to know about this. How can I live in a country that allows this to happen?
I can understand how being treated horribly by a guest you are serving would drive a server to do this.
I wonder what it would be like if some of the people in the restaurant were often trying to kill you.
See, this(and the expense) is just another good reason why I don't go into restaurants, unless I absolutely have to. And then, it is a buffet/cafeteria, where I can decide which portion to take. This is a true story: at the northside pizza buffet 7-8 years ago, a group of young whippersnappers(at least 1/2 a dozen) came in, dressed in cargo shorts and T-shirts and with pistols in holsters. I asked one of them: "Hey--what's the deal with the guns, in here?" You kids know me--making friends wherever I go. Ha. Anyway, the whippersnapper says something like: "We're Police Officers". I just made a funny face and went to my table. I'm just sitting here, still wondering what the necessity is--- for that many able-bodied young men, presumeably schooled in po-lice restraint techniques; to carry weapons into a restaurant, dressed in casual attire & not on patrol and responding to an emergency. Oh, I know: the Espirit de Corps; the Gung-Ho Macho-ness of it. Still, I believe it is inappropriate. REAL Tough Guys Don't Need No 9mm Problem Solver, when going in for pizza.
See, this(and the expense) is just another good reason why I don't go into restaurants, unless I absolutely have to. And then, it is a buffet/cafeteria, where I can decide which portion to take. This is a true story: at the northside pizza buffet 7-8 years ago, a group of young whippersnappers(at least 1/2 a dozen) came in, dressed in cargo shorts and T-shirts and with pistols in holsters. I asked one of them: "Hey--what's the deal with the guns, in here?" You kids know me--making friends wherever I go. Ha. Anyway, the whippersnapper says something like: "We're Police Officers". I just made a funny face and went to my table. I'm just sitting here, still wondering what the necessity is--- for that many able-bodied young men, presumeably schooled in po-lice restraint techniques; to carry weapons into a restaurant, dressed in casual attire & not on patrol and responding to an emergency. Oh, I know: the Espirit de Corps; the Gung-Ho Macho-ness of it. Still, I believe it is inappropriate. REAL Tough Guys Don't Need No 9mm Problem Solver, when going in for pizza.
If I were a betting man I'd put a few bucks on the fact that they were returning from mandatory firearms qualification on their off-day and decided to stop for lunch, knowing that the safest place for their firearms was on their person rather than in a car in a public parking lot.
If I were a betting man I'd put a few bucks on the fact that they were returning from mandatory firearms qualification on their off-day and decided to stop for lunch, knowing that the safest place for their firearms was on their person rather than in a car in a public parking lot.Yeah-but: the Pizza Place Offered(it's been closed since 2010) a clear view of the Parkin' lot, from where they were sitting. They could have locked their Problem-solvers in the trunk of their vehicle, out of sight, and out of mind. If they observed someone tampering with their motor vehicle(a felony), they could all quickly sprint out to the lot, and place the suspect under arrest. Then, they would get a big favorable write-up in the paper, and share the glory for keeping us safe. Quite frankly--Being unarmed, I was concerned that I might be the loser in a contest to see who gets the last slice of that luscious, yummy, scrumptious piping-hot pepperoni, sausage, and bacon pizza, piled HIGH with oooooeeey-gooooey mozaaaarellllla cheeeeese. Not quite worth taking a bullet over.
Quite frankly--Being unarmed, I was concerned that I might be the loser in a contest to see who gets the last slice of that luscious, yummy, scrumptious piping-hot pepperoni, sausage, and bacon pizza, piled HIGH with oooooeeey-gooooey mozaaaarellllla cheeeeese. Not quite worth taking a bullet over.See, that's the thing about the world these days, if given the choice of a reasonable explanation and an absurd one that happens to fit a perverse viewpoint, reason always loses.
See, that's the thing about the world these days, if given the choice of a reasonable explanation and an absurd one that happens to fit a perverse viewpoint, reason always loses.Okay--here's another one---just suppose that one of the rookie cops has an undiagnosed tumorous growth bearing against his hypermigdalia up there in his brain. Just like the late Eagle Scout and All-American Boy down there in Awestun, Tx, Charlie Whitman. Okay--suppose the stimulus from biting into a slice of piping-hot pizza(and that ooooey-gooey cheese)causes the tumor to expand enough to cause pressure on that part of the brain that I mentioned which controls aggression, & causes the cop to go berserk(like Charlie did back in '66) and start shooting at everyone; gunning down his comrades before they even have a chance to unholster their people-stoppers. Then, reloads, and guns down a bunch of Pizza Buffet Employees & other patrons. See what I mean? Better be safe, than sorry, and put the Guns up until it's official business time. Hope that wasn't too absurd. No one thought Charlie was absurd, but they definitely thought it could've been prevented. Like Barney says: Nip It. Hope that helps you some. Later.
Last year, the city paid out a 3/4 million-dollar settlement to an individual who was shot by a cop, for shooting the kid when he shouldn't have. i.e. pursuing a misdemeanor case. Then recently, we have a police officer shot while pursuing a suspected felon--when Mr Cop SHOULD have shot the guy, first. So, gun or not, training or not, right side of the law or not; when you have guns--- bad judgment can enter into the equation. So, a group of off-duty, un-uniformed officers carrying guns into a restaurant is inappropriate, and it is absurd. The guns cannot be fired, unloaded and in the trunk of a car, and that's where they belonged.
iris lilies
4-4-15, 1:44pm
Last year, the city paid out a 3/4 million-dollar settlement to an individual who was shot by a cop, for shooting the kid when he shouldn't have. i.e. pursuing a misdemeanor case. Then recently, we have a police officer shot while pursuing a suspected felon--when Mr Cop SHOULD have shot the guy, first. So, gun or not, training or not, right side of the law or not; when you have guns--- bad judgment can enter into the equation. So, a group of off-duty, un-uniformed officers carrying guns into a restaurant is inappropriate, and it is absurd. The guns cannot be fired, unloaded and in the trunk of a car, and that's where they belonged.
just yesterday I heard a news report from my city about guns being stolen from cars.
Guns are more popular than cash as targets of theft.
So, a group of off-duty, un-uniformed officers carrying guns into a restaurant is inappropriate, and it is absurd.
No.
So, a group of off-duty, un-uniformed officers carrying guns into a restaurant is inappropriate, and it is absurd. The guns cannot be fired, unloaded and in the trunk of a car, and that's where they belonged.
Some jurisdictions require their officers to carry 24/7 when off duty.
By extension, I suppose you think that those of us with concealed carry permits shouldn't be carrying anywhere? I just got home from lunch with a couple of friends at a Middle Eastern restaurant. The restaurant doesn't have a "no guns" sign posted, so I carried inside. In fact, the only places I can't carry are work (it stays in my car, out of sight), and places like the post office or doctor's office (because it's run by a hospital) that are off-limits due to either federal or state law. I don't give my money to places displaying a "no guns" sign.
My pistol goes on in the morning just like my clothes and earrings.
Well, like John Lennon said: "Happiness Is A Warm Gun". You know: If Oh-Nooo had been packing, she prolly coulda squeezed off a couple rounds at John's assassin, and taught him a lesson he'd never forget.
Here's a poem for you kids: Guns Are Fun! See that living legend over there? Just one little squeeze of this trigger; I can put that person at my feet; moaning and groaning and pleading with God; This gun gives me pornographic power; If I wish, the President will fall; and the world will look at me in disbelief; all because I own an inexpensive gun. Guns are lovable, guns are fun; Are you lucky enough to own one? ---by John Hinckley, jr. Anyway, I believe that off-duty cops taking guns into a business sets a bad example for the citizenry, some of whom are not very responsible. All there is to it.
No. I am trying to get together some in investors, to build a privately-run correctional facility, to take the burden off of our present government-run facilities in the Pacific Northwest. When we get the resources, we will acquire a large tract of land, on a remote island that already has necessary infrastructure in place. Then, we will build our facility, designed to house upwards of 2,000 inmates. I had Orcas Island in mind to build the "Constitution Mountain Secure Institution", because we just know that the local culture of the island is well-suited to this. A factor which will be useful if one of our inmates should escape custody. It also means JOBS for the local economy. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
gimmethesimplelife
4-4-15, 4:05pm
Wow, now I find out about waiters. Did you whip out your phone for evidence? Who knows what diseases could be passed along. I hope they were caught and fired imediatly, and then prosecuted and sued.
And to to wish death, really. You take an order and bring out food and drinks. How hard is that?
The police have to actually be concerned with being killed on the job from the thugs out there. Sure you can pick out a few out of the thousands out there, but most are good people. Think how much real stress that they have, are they going to go out on a call about some poor waiter who is being attacked by the local thugs and be ambushed.
Hopefully your community can find a way to have the police stay away. I'm sure that would work out best for everyone.When the pace is sane it's not a bad job, unless people send food back, the cook makes a mistake, the guest doesn't like their food, you get triple sat within the space of two minutes, someone doesn't like and complains, the manager doesn't like you so you have to bury a mistake and you're not sure you can pull it off.....and this is when the pace is sane. Juggle all of that insanity when it's busy and you will understand why being a waiter is ranked by the federal government as one of the most stressful jobs out there. I can see that you have never waited tables - otherwise you'd never make that remark.
Something else - I take a great deal of pride in the fact that I've never done anything funky with a guest's food. I believe in food and beverage karma - this is a big reason I've never done it though over the years I've had a few people I've thought about doing it to but I just couldn't do it. Beyond food and beverage karma I didn't want to stoop down to their level and two of the three times the economy was doing much better than now and I had money saved - much better that if I had gotten in trouble for nothing that was my fault/nothing that I had control over that I just jump ship as at the time, it was very easy to replace a serving job. I also would not want to live with myself knowing I had done something funky to someone else's food.
But I'm going to be honest here - treat your server horribly and there are those with thick skin that let it slide off them, there are those like me who will milk it if they think they can to get a better schedule, and there are those who will do something funky with your food to retaliate. Treat your wait staff at least neutrally and you won't have to worry about this. And it does happen. I've read online about cops finding spit in their food after driving off from fast food places and busting the person who did it and in this instance, I can say I side with the cop unless they were extremely abusive towards the employee. And I mean really really bad and disrespectful towards the employee. Otherwise I'd side with the cop on this one as it's really lowdown nasty behavior. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-4-15, 4:08pm
I wonder what it would be like if some of the people in the restaurant were often trying to kill you.I personally would not sign up the job then, nor would I ever want to be a cop, either. Rob
Juggle all of that insanity when it's busy and you will understand why being a waiter is ranked by the federal government as one of the most stressful jobs out there. I can see that you have never waited tables - otherwise you'd never make that remark.
Ya, I'd never understand anything about stress, as I have a nice relaxing job running into burning buildings.
You have a lot of waiters dropping from cardiac arrest while bringing out the cheese plate do you? Need medical exams every 40 minutes during your shift to make sure the flash on your uniform isn't causing issues?
Odd though, the lists of stressful occupations I usually come across have firefighters, police, enlisted military, air traffic controllers, emergency dispatchers, surgeons, and people like that on the top of the list, and seem to omit waiters.
http://pleasekillme.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/firefighter-fire-e1371608243287.jpg
http://www.boston.com/jobs/news/2015/01/13/firefighter-the-most-stressful-job/vDl5ZNRWxdeQZjKMBN63aL/story.html
gimmethesimplelife
4-4-15, 4:21pm
Ya, I'd never understand anything about stress, as I have a nice relaxing job running into burning buildings.
You have a lot of waiters dropping from cardiac arrest while bringing out the cheese plate do you? Need medical exams every 40 minutes during your shift to make sure the flash on your uniform isn't causing issues?
Odd though, the lists of stressful occupations I usually come across have firefighters, police, enlisted military, air traffic controllers, emergency dispatchers, surgeons, and people like that on the top of the list, and seem to omit waiters.
http://pleasekillme.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/firefighter-fire-e1371608243287.jpg
http://www.boston.com/jobs/news/2015/01/13/firefighter-the-most-stressful-job/vDl5ZNRWxdeQZjKMBN63aL/story.htmlGot ahead and google then. Waiting tables is on many lists ranked as one of the most stressful jobs, up there with being an air traffic controller. Though I will say I'd agree that over the past few years, jobs in general have become more stressful and more jobs are resembling waiting tables now in terms of utter insanity and powerlessness/lack of control of variables you are vulnerable to. It's become so crazy that any day I walk into a job now I expect to be my last working at that job - that doesn't mean that I don't work my butt off - that means that I expect nothing from a job/employer any more, have no loyalty whatsoever, and handle my cash flow accordingly. Rob
Got ahead and google then.
I did. I failed to find the data you suggested, merely article after article with approximately the same results as I suggested. Including the link I posted, which points to some of the most recent data.
My respect to the sacrifices you and your brothers and sisters in arms put in to make sure warm tasty food is delivered with care. We all owe you! I'll go do another 15 miles today with a 90 pound pack in your honor.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/09/01/911.firefighters.cancer/t1larg.firefighter.dust.gi.jpg
^I don't see their guns....where are their guns?^ Kids, I HAVE seen articles, a number of times, that said waiting on tables is a stressful job. Maybe not PHYSICALLY, but mentally. I believe it, because people can be very, very annoying. Especially in restaurants. And, it's one of those jobs where--one minute, there's nothing going on; the next minute, it's an avalanche. Chalk up yet another reason I rarely ever go into a restaurant. Y'know--maybe I'd be okay with the idea of waiters n' waitresses carrying a sidearm, and even a taser and a baton.
just yesterday I heard a news report from my city about guns being stolen from cars.
Guns are more popular than cash as targets of theft.I just got to thinkin', Faux; In that case, you better bring your Merc-O-ree steering column in, at nite. You don't wanna see it get stole, agin, by some rippoff thug. Cost too dang much to replace it!
http://www.heartsandlaserbeams.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/office-space-jennifer-aniston-flair.jpg
http://www.teamqda.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/US_Navy_090801-M-3123G-002_Sgt._Major_Michael_Templeton_right_holds_the_d ress_blue_uniform_of_Cpl._Jason_Dunham.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/cartoons/2012/3/14/1331729909638/A-waiter-carrying-a-tray--007.jpg
https://40.media.tumblr.com/d0f5afbb53fa3997e94da01ab8ebe5c8/tumblr_nic6s5b3Nh1skaxu8o1_500.jpg
I've never had a bad experience with a police officer and I've had one pull a gun on me.
Totally my fault.
I was living in NM and my boyfriend and I and a bunch of friends went tubing on the Pecos river. Stupid boyfriend went over a falls and hit his head. Later that night he was sick and coming up with really weird stories so we piled in a car to take him to the ER in Santa Fe. We got pulled over for speeding and I jumped out to run back and tell the officer we were headed to the ER. He pulled a gun and I realized you never jump out and run towards an officer. When he checked me over and heard my story and checked on my boyfriend who proceeded to throw up one more time the officer then gave us a fast escort to the ER.
I've bought meals for officers and I have some great conversations with officers I see doing security (extra hours) at my 2nd job.
flowerseverywhere
4-4-15, 9:02pm
Thank you Bae and all the military, firefighters, police, medical personnel, airline pilots who came up over and over for performing the most stressful jobs in the Google searching I did. The United states is a better place thanks to all of you.
on spitting into food, or doing disgusting things imagine this scenario. Very nice gay young man stops in a cafe. He is feeling low because he is HIV positive from an encounter with someone infected who he trusted. His health is poor, and he is impatient with the waiter. Said waiter has a cold and spits in his food. Customer gets very ill due to his compromised immune system. Or a person on chemo might be tired and not as patient as they could be when their order comes. Justified to contaminate their food or to turn a blind eye when someone else does?
gimmethesimplelife
4-4-15, 10:19pm
Thank you Bae and all the military, firefighters, police, medical personnel, airline pilots who came up over and over for performing the most stressful jobs in the Google searching I did. The United states is a better place thanks to all of you.
on spitting into food, or doing disgusting things imagine this scenario. Very nice gay young man stops in a cafe. He is feeling low because he is HIV positive from an encounter with someone infected who he trusted. His health is poor, and he is impatient with the waiter. Said waiter has a cold and spits in his food. Customer gets very ill due to his compromised immune system. Or a person on chemo might be tired and not as patient as they could be when their order comes. Justified to contaminate their food or to turn a blind eye when someone else does?You have a point here, I'm not going to argue otherwise. And I will admit I have looked the other way when others have done this. Typically when this happens a server will make a big deal of it in the back where the other servers are to get support going - only the strongest of the strong is going to do this without some support from the other waitstaff. I have felt so sorry for other servers as I know what it is like to be a victim of the general public with no recourse but to smile and tolerate abuse if I want to keep my job - so I have looked the other way as have all the other servers I have worked a shift with then this has happened. So ummm.....I'm condoning it by looking the other way. I don't like admitting this but it is true nonetheless. I'm wrong to look the other way, I'll admit that.....but the cost of saying something is intense politics and probable job loss if I do the right thing. The only way I can see winning when dealing with horrific customers is milking the situation to get something I want out of management - if I believe I can get whatever it is. Retaliation via messing with a guests food - once again I can understand it but it seems much more practical to use the situation to get something you want from management. And much more ethical to handle it my way, too. And I still get to wish the horrific table death out loud in the back and under my breath on the floor.
Flowerseverywhere, your post puts a new twist on this that I had not thought of before and I'm going to agree with you here. You have the high road here. Rob
And I will admit I have looked the other way when others have done this.
Geeze, you couldn't have at least pulled out a cell phone and documented it, so the poor customer could receive a multi-million-dollar settlement?
I know what it is like to be a victim of the general public with no recourse but to smile and tolerate abuse
Boo ****ing hoo. I can't believe anyone has the audacity to whine about the difficulties of passing out food to rude people while denigrating the people who deal with the violent predators., the mentally incompetent, the emotionally unstable, and the just plain evil dregs of society. Actually I have sympathy for everyone, waitstaff included, but if you can't cut others doing a harder job some slack then don't expect any sympathy yourself.
flowerseverywhere
4-5-15, 12:22am
You have a point here, I'm not going to argue otherwise. And I will admit I have looked the other way when others have done this. Typically when this happens a server will make a big deal of it in the back where the other servers are to get support going - only the strongest of the strong is going to do this without some support from the other waitstaff. I have felt so sorry for other servers as I know what it is like to be a victim of the general public with no recourse but to smile and tolerate abuse if I want to keep my job - so I have looked the other way as have all the other servers I have worked a shift with then this has happened. So ummm.....I'm condoning it by looking the other way. I don't like admitting this but it is true nonetheless. I'm wrong to look the other way, I'll admit that.....but the cost of saying something is intense politics and probable job loss if I do the right thing. The only way I can see winning when dealing with horrific customers is milking the situation to get something I want out of management - if I believe I can get whatever it is. Retaliation via messing with a guests food - once again I can understand it but it seems much more practical to use the situation to get something you want from management. And much more ethical to handle it my way, too. And I still get to wish the horrific table death out loud in the back and under my breath on the floor.
Flowerseverywhere, your post puts a new twist on this that I had not thought of before and I'm going to agree with you here. You have the high road here. Rob
for better or worse our behaviors and attitudes are the result of our life experiences. Bad experiences happen to all of us. Only you have the power to decide how to react to our experiences. Sometimes we have experienced really bad stuff. As I have posted before am mixed race and ended up in foster care. I had a lot of hurdles to climb. So here are my choices. Become a bitchy victim? Help those who are in less than ideal situations? Turn a blind eye to those who are mean, abusive or hateful? The decisions are endless.
sometimes we cannot make the best decisions without professional help. I really think you could benefit from some sessions from an impartional third party. You have health insurance.. Use it to work on your weaknesses and bolster your strengths. You have entered a long term relationship. Be the best you can be for you future spouse. You owe him.
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 1:37am
Geeze, you couldn't have at least pulled out a cell phone and documented it, so the poor customer could receive a multi-million-dollar settlement?Ummmm.....you don't see any shades of difference between my neighbors who were brutally attacked and assaulted by the police here in Phoenix vs. spitting in someone's food? Granted, the latter is vile and disgusting, I won't deny that, but if I had to choose between the two - if one of these absolutely had to happen to me, I'd take the second - much less drama overall. True, no real shot at a large settlement but that's not what this has ever been about for me. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 1:48am
Boo ****ing hoo. I can't believe anyone has the audacity to whine about the difficulties of passing out food to rude people while denigrating the people who deal with the violent predators., the mentally incompetent, the emotionally unstable, and the just plain evil dregs of society. Actually I have sympathy for everyone, waitstaff included, but if you can't cut others doing a harder job some slack then don't expect any sympathy yourself.There is one huge gaping hole in your argument here. Being me, let's proceed to it. Waiters as I said before, really don't have any power to abuse you with - the police do. Right here and now I'll give you that not every cop abuses their power - I get that. The unfortunate truth is that some do and you never know what kind of cop you will be dealing with in advance. I'd a sight rather have someone spit in my food unpleasant though that may be, than be brutally attacked as my neighbor was, as the elderly Indian man in Alabama was - as others have been and continue to be. I have no sympathy for the police until there is more of a level playing field and until such as date as when they cross the line into illegal behavior, they find themselves dealing with swift and severe consequences. Until such a date as some kind of bill of citizen rights against illegal behavior by the police is drawn up and is made effective, I say boo ####ing hoo for the police. Some of them sure have earned it. Unfortunately there are some good people in the mix who are cops who are going to suffer for this - but my question from awhile back still stands: Why are the good cops not agitating to have the troublemakers/trash that causes problems thrown off the force? I have a hard time having sympathy when trash and troublemakers are kept on - and for people that are more on the cops side, please realize this type of officer causes more huge settlements, upping insurance rates for municipalities and causing over time fewer services and higher taxes. Is this what you want, those who side with the police? That's up to you, I can't make that choice for other people. But I won't deny that some cops have no business being a cop and that sometimes the public pays for it. In more than one way. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 2:01am
for better or worse our behaviors and attitudes are the result of our life experiences. Bad experiences happen to all of us. Only you have the power to decide how to react to our experiences. Sometimes we have experienced really bad stuff. As I have posted before am mixed race and ended up in foster care. I had a lot of hurdles to climb. So here are my choices. Become a bitchy victim? Help those who are in less than ideal situations? Turn a blind eye to those who are mean, abusive or hateful? The decisions are endless.
sometimes we cannot make the best decisions without professional help. I really think you could benefit from some sessions from an impartional third party. You have health insurance.. Use it to work on your weaknesses and bolster your strengths. You have entered a long term relationship. Be the best you can be for you future spouse. You owe him.I don't see myself as a victim in regards to this topic. I see myself and my neighbors as POTENTIAL victims - who knows who is going to be viciously and illegally attacked next? Certainly it will not be all of us, I understand this. And I agree with you, bad experiences happen to all of us. It's a bit hard though to have someone with a pension and incredible benefits illegally abuse their power over you - this I can not accept, regardless of the fact that life is not fair. I don't see it as being a bitchy victim to question everything and to stand up to the system when the law is broken.
I Thank You for your concern for my relationship btw and I realize you mean well. My future husband and his family feel the same way I do - especially my future father in law. I've learned some new profanity in Spanish listening to him speak about the police and about SB 1070 in Arizona and about the Border Patrol and how crooked they are. Pretty much in even installments, meaning around 1/3 of his issues are with the police. My future husband appreciates the fact that things are more stable here than in Mexico, but says no one really has any rights here unless they have a lot of money, and I couldn't agree more with this. It's not that he's ungrateful to be here, it's much more that he can see things as they are. I really respect that in him. Rob
I have no sympathy for the police until there is more of a level playing field and until such as date as when they cross the line into illegal behavior, they find themselves dealing with swift and severe consequences.
I'm sure there are problems of abuse out there Rob, but it is inherently difficult to sort out when many of the accusers may be of questionable veracity. That doesn't mean they lose their rights, no one should, but it does make it difficult to resolve some of the accusations. Sticking with the public cases where we do know many of the facts, I'd say the criminal justice system got it right in Ferguson, Staten Island, and Alabama. As much as you like convictions for the sake of convictions, the forensic and video evidence supports the criminal justice outcomes for the cops in the Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases. The cop in Alabama was fired and is being prosecuted but they have not had the trial yet. I don't think the cops did anything wrong regarding Taraji Henson's son.
As you kids know, I'm very, very, very, VERY Conservative! I can't even begin to describe how extremely, wildly, radically, outrageously Conservative I am! If I had MY littlebitty way, we'd change things---back, back to the way we like to believe things used to be! The Good Old Days, when we had Polio & TB, instead of Gay Aids and Ebolla!. We'd have an Irish & Italian Immigrant Problem, instead of a Mexican Problem. You betcha. Anyway, this thread has got me to Thinking (something I don't usually waste my valuable time on)that from now on, I will be carrying at least ONE gun on my person at ALL times! I will have a gun(s)in holsters, when I go anywhere---even Church. If someone says: " hey--why are you carrying them gun(s) in church?" I'll say: " I suppose you think it's okay to stand by helplessly, and see little kids molested by their Sundy-School teacher, doncha?" And they'll say: "Yah, but--don't you think that is kind of a stretch of yyour imagination?" And I'll go: "What are you? One o' them Libberals that hates God & Amerikka?" And they'll go: "Not really. It's just that church is not the place to be carrying a weapon" And I'll go: "Buddy---any more flak from you, and you're going to be a BLEEDING-HEART commie liberal!" Ha. Pretty much a gotcha. Wish me luck. Thankk Mee.
I will be carrying at least ONE gun on my person at ALL times! I will have a gun(s)in holsters, when I go anywhere---even Church.
It's pretty common these days for churches to have armed security personnel in the congregation, concealed of course. I'm guessing one or two more wouldn't hurt anything.
there are armed police officers at my daughter's work at a movie theater, of course that one already had a mass shooting. the trial starts soon, i have come to appreciate trained police officers who are armed. we have a parent who is a police office and comes into the childcare setting armed, the safety and security force in the urban school district i work in are armed depending on their role. i really am not a gun fan, no one in my family hunts or carries a weapon, but i have not been uncomfortable with people who have sworn to protect us carrying guns even into my program.
It's pretty common these days for churches to have armed security personnel in the congregation, concealed of course. I'm guessing one or two more wouldn't hurt anything.Yes, yes--I have to agree--there are paranoiacs practically everywhere you go. And, just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean "they" aren't out to get you. Because, many people go to church on account of a belief they'll stay out of hell for the stuff they do the other 6 days of the week. They may also be concerned that church is the one place an irate ex-husband or disgruntled former employee or client/patient who lost everything, might find them, unarmed and vulnerable.
Wow. Armed Police, everywhere. Y'know, Lee Oswald was shot to death by an impetuous and impulsive and emotionally unbalanced vigilante (who normally carried a problem-solver while banking the daily receipts for his saloon) IN THE BASEMENT OF THE DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT. Oswald was being escorted from a POLICE ELEVATOR to a POLICE CAR, while handcuffed to a POLICE OFFICER. You can't get much more Secure than that, can you? Unless you are Ronnie "Dick" Reagun & Jim Brady, White house Press secretary, being escorted by Secret Service Agents, to your limo. Well, can you? Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
... spitting in someone's food? Granted, the latter is vile and disgusting, I won't deny that, but if I had to choose between the two - if one of these absolutely had to happen to me, I'd take the second - much less drama overall
Rob, if someone spits on me in my job, or in my food, there's a whole lot of drama that's going to happen. There will be a *ton* of exposure paperwork to fill out, and post-exposure monitoring. The person doing the spitting will be restrained, tied to a backboard, and transported to a medical facility where their fluids will be drawn against their will for evaluation, and their medical history taken. Then they will spend some time in jail. And if they aren't judgement-proof, you can bet they will lose a good portion of their net worth in the proceedings that will accompany all of this.
I realize that in Rob's World, spitting on The Man is a respected gesture of rebellion, to be honored in solidarity by all the other stressed-out servers, but in The Real World, things are different.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Mm_F759EYR4/VQYHA8NywqI/AAAAAAAAOlw/7L4D38izago/s640/Awesomized.jpg
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 3:07pm
I'm sure there are problems of abuse out there Rob, but it is inherently difficult to sort out when many of the accusers may be of questionable veracity. That doesn't mean they lose their rights, no one should, but it does make it difficult to resolve some of the accusations. Sticking with the public cases where we do know many of the facts, I'd say the criminal justice system got it right in Ferguson, Staten Island, and Alabama. As much as you like convictions for the sake of convictions, the forensic and video evidence supports the criminal justice outcomes for the cops in the Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases. The cop in Alabama was fired and is being prosecuted but they have not had the trial yet. I don't think the cops did anything wrong regarding Taraji Henson's son.If the police got it right in Alabama, why was the officer involved arrested and charged? I'm sorry, I'm not following you. Wouldn't the fact that the officer involved was arrested and charged indicate that something might be amiss with his actions? Rob
If the police got it right in Alabama, why was the officer involved arrested and charged?
Do you understand how our legal system works?
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 3:22pm
Do you understand how our legal system works?My take is that you see it one way, perhaps because of what you do, and I see it another way, because of what I've seen with my own eyes, and learned to live in fear of. And beyond the police themselves and the numerous issues that are present with them, I have further issues of fear with the justice system itself. Take the fact that the United States has by far the highest number of incarcerated people in the world, and I'll have to fact check this next that I type here but I think I remember reading that 25% of the world's incarcerated people are in the US but we have only 5% of the world's population? Something is seriously wrong with this in my book. Not only that, but recently there have been a number of cases where DNA evidence has proven that incarcerated people victimized by the "justice system" were indeed innocent. How do these victims get their time stolen from them by the "justice system" back? I also have a great deal of fear of the "justice system" as if you don't have the money to hire good legal representation, you are vulnerable to this to some degree too, though it does help to have white skin to minimize your risk of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Honestly, the police overall in America and the "justice system" in America - they both are sub par overall for me. Definitely both have aspects of the third world to them. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 3:27pm
I'm sure there are problems of abuse out there Rob, but it is inherently difficult to sort out when many of the accusers may be of questionable veracity. That doesn't mean they lose their rights, no one should, but it does make it difficult to resolve some of the accusations. Sticking with the public cases where we do know many of the facts, I'd say the criminal justice system got it right in Ferguson, Staten Island, and Alabama. As much as you like convictions for the sake of convictions, the forensic and video evidence supports the criminal justice outcomes for the cops in the Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases. The cop in Alabama was fired and is being prosecuted but they have not had the trial yet. I don't think the cops did anything wrong regarding Taraji Henson's son.If the officer involved here does not find himself facing some kind of consequence for his actions that led to paralysis on one side for his victim (due to the fact that the victim spoke no English and could not answer the officer's questions), honestly, is there any reason for any of us to remain in the United States? To me that screams FLEE loud and clear as human rights obviously mean nothing in America if this officer is let go. Rob
My take is that you see it one way,
My take is that the question you asked ("If the police got it right in Alabama, why was the officer involved arrested and charged?") shows a fundamental misunderstanding.
If someone is arrested, are they guilty? If someone is charged, are they guilty? (For bonus points, how does the "charge" happen, and who does it?). If someone is put on trial, are they guilty?
When is guilt established? By whom? What is the process, and what is the standard?
If the officer involved here does not find himself facing some kind of consequence for his actions that led to paralysis on one side for his victim (due to the fact that the victim spoke no English and could not answer the officer's questions), honestly, is there any reason for any of us to remain in the United States? To me that screams FLEE loud and clear as human rights obviously mean nothing in America if this officer is let go. Rob
Geeze, Rob, how can you even morally remain on this planet if the UN Commission on Human Rights does not step in and impose consequences on a single (not-yet-tried-and-convicted) officer's actions in the State of Alabama?
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 3:49pm
Geeze, Rob, how can you even morally remain on this planet if the UN Commission on Human Rights does not step in and impose consequences on a single (not-yet-tried-and-convicted) officer's actions in the State of Alabama?Any of us could be that elderly man from India who is now partially paralyzed thanks to police brutality. Any of us. I am unable to gloss that fact over and I am unable to forgive America for this reality. Once more, any of us could be the partially paralyzed victim. Rob
If the police got it right in Alabama, why was the officer involved arrested and charged? I'm sorry, I'm not following you. Wouldn't the fact that the officer involved was arrested and charged indicate that something might be amiss with his actions? Rob
Well, we'll see. But he was fired and charged with a crime. I don't know what more you could want at this stage. My point was that the system seems to be working correctly. Until you have Robocop you will have to rely on people doing the job and people will always make mistakes or do bad things. Let's see how the system works this time.
In my hood we are good with the cops. But that isn't to say they don't ever do something wrong. They apparently screwed up here but the system still worked: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/12/370445572/georgia-woman-gets-100k-over-her-arrest-for-cursing-at-police
We had two screw-ups here last year as well, only rising to the level of a grumpy deputy yelling at some people doing a hay-ride. As a result, we have a newly-elected Sheriff (one of the deputies who blew the whistle on the yelling and the poor handling of the incident), and the old Sheriff is now a junior deputy handing out parking tickets. And the troublesome deputy under that old Sheriff who did the yelling was sent to some retraining, and is now assigned to a different location where he mostly looks for lost goats.
It worked this way because the local community likes its officers, and won't tolerate misbehavior. People spoke out, wrote letters to the newspaper, helped out with the new Sheriff's campaign (he was endorsed by almost every single civic organization in the county, and hundreds of influential individuals), and so on. Nobody cowered in a restaurant, afraid to eat their lunch.
I guess we could call that "civic involvement privilege".
Any of us could be that elderly man from India who is now partially paralyzed thanks to police brutality. Any of us. I am unable to gloss that fact over and I am unable to forgive America for this reality. Once more, any of us could be the partially paralyzed victim. Rob
This is one of the reasons why I asked you about what you have had responsibility for in the past. My guess was not much given your fundamentally illiterate view of responsibility and organizations. As I have moved up in management I spend more and more of my time dealing with people problems. People make mistakes. People who have to deal with difficult situations make them more frequently than others. Quit being a pansy and blaming everyone else. Step up and do it right yourself or try to be constructive in how you support those that are. It's fair to try to identify and fix problems b ut your hyperventilating melodrama isn't helping.
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 5:11pm
This is one of the reasons why I asked you about what you have had responsibility for in the past. My guess was not much given your fundamentally illiterate view of responsibility and organizations. As I have moved up in management I spend more and more of my time dealing with people problems. People make mistakes. People who have to deal with difficult situations make them more frequently than others. Quit being a pansy and blaming everyone else. Step up and do it right yourself or try to be constructive in how you support those that are. It's fair to try to identify and fix problems b ut your hyperventilating melodrama isn't helping.I'm going to agree to disagree with you also, Yossarian. In my book you have went a little too far here and going forward I will not respond to posts such as this. Rob
I'm going to agree to disagree with you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism#Thou ght-terminating_clich.C3.A9
An attempt to clarify things in this thread to see what we agree on:
Police officers are human and as such not only "make mistakes" but can engage in bad behavior up to the level of any others which can include engaging in criminal behavior of their own;
When this happens they are typically not held accountable to the level of regular citizens because of having a badge.
Citizen videos have been eye-opening to those who would not otherwise believe this, along with books like Matt Taibbi's which demonstrate with statistics how the poor can be the easy prey of those wielding a badge. I include crooked prosecutors and judges in this category.
But acknowledging this is what's happening does not mean that most people do not have basic respect for their police, firefighters and other first responders, including those who post here. Witnessing and calling out what is wrong and what needs to change does not denigrate everyone in that line of work.
I'm going to agree to disagree with you also, Yossarian. In my book you have went a little too far here and going forward I will not respond to posts such as this. Rob
That's fine, but as a parting thought I wonder if people get the policing they deserve. If you live in a dysfunctional community that has a high crime rate but ineffective community or political leadership then my guess is the odds are higher that you will have policing problems than say a place in a low crime area or one with responsive civic oversight. Policng is a communitty act. Put people in a no win situation, like where there is no effective community, and well, it's not surprising there are no winners. I'm sure fixing the probelm is much harder than bitching about a nation, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Just trying to help you get from neurosis to solutions.
But acknowledging this is what's happening does not mean that most people do not have basic respect for their police, firefighters and other first responders, including those who post here. Witnessing and calling out what is wrong and what needs to change does not denigrate everyone in that line of work.
Absolutely, and I think that is the point of some of the discussion here-- everyone thinks the bad people should be caught and punished but the difference is to how far you extraplolate the bad acts of individuals and how you seek redress. To give you some contrast, I frequent a number of pro-gun rights forums where people are very concerned about constitutional rights and many times the discussions focus on redressing police abuses. But the tone and approach is more constructive. While there is general preference to limit interaction with police, there are no blanket statements that police are evil or that the country sucks because of what some cop did. There is a general recognition that most cops are decent people and when there is a perceived rights violation there is a lot of proactive involvement to make sure the system addresses the wrong. Sometimes there can be litigation where there isn't the response from an institution that people want, but it isn't a suit happy stick it to the taxpayers mob. People are also active in the politcal process to try and get systemic problems fixed. So rather than bitching that the country sucks, cops are evil, and dreaming up ways to make police/citizen interactions even more hostile and ineffective there is a productive local and grass roots organizational effect to get things working correctly. But I've already pointed all this out to Rob so sorry to repeat.
I'm going to start a Pro-establishment eating establishment, and call it: "Benito's Authentic Authoritarian Food". Law enforcement personnel will not only be Welcome, but receive 50%-off discounts on their check, and once they're on our mailing list--they get coupons good for deep discounts on pastries and pizza and other cop food items. We will fly Flags out in front, and have a nice little shooting range downstairs that officers can use. How do you kids like that?
Policing and the local justice system is a community act. But sometimes it takes intervention at a higher level to correct wrongs. I'm thinking of the two judges in Pennsylvania who were sentencing juveniles to a new privatized detention center for extremely minor offenses at a very high cost to taxpayers. Then it was revealed that the judges were getting kickbacks from the detention facility operator. It took the state and fed gov't to clean up the mess and prosecute the judges.
Same with Ferguson Missouri: the pattern and practice of policing for profit had rewarded overly aggressive police behavior. The federal gov't study which included review of police interactions including computer records and emails was what finally convinced people there was a serious problem.
The federal gov't study which included review of police interactions including computer records and emails was what finally convinced people there was a serious problem.
People may differ on the amount of stock they put in the Federal report, but if there was in fact a problem in Ferguson I would say it supports the idea that problems are more likely to exist where there is a civic disconnect.
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 8:51pm
An attempt to clarify things in this thread to see what we agree on:
Police officers are human and as such not only "make mistakes" but can engage in bad behavior up to the level of any others which can include engaging in criminal behavior of their own;
When this happens they are typically not held accountable to the level of regular citizens because of having a badge.
Citizen videos have been eye-opening to those who would not otherwise believe this, along with books like Matt Taibbi's which demonstrate with statistics how the poor can be the easy prey of those wielding a badge. I include crooked prosecutors and judges in this category.
But acknowledging this is what's happening does not mean that most people do not have basic respect for their police, firefighters and other first responders, including those who post here. Witnessing and calling out what is wrong and what needs to change does not denigrate everyone in that line of work.Thank You, Lainey. I like your calm and collected take on all of this. And I agree with most of what you have posted here. I have to admit that due to what I have seen and learned I am very wary of the police in general, very much so. But I also agree that stating this does not denigrate every last person wearing a badge and scattered throughout my posts you will find instances where I have tried to give them a little credit and where I have stated I understand that they are not all bad.
I will see if the main library downtown has the Matt Taibbi's book - more than one person has recommended it to me. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 9:01pm
That's fine, but as a parting thought I wonder if people get the policing they deserve. If you live in a dysfunctional community that has a high crime rate but ineffective community or political leadership then my guess is the odds are higher that you will have policing problems than say a place in a low crime area or one with responsive civic oversight. Policng is a communitty act. Put people in a no win situation, like where there is no effective community, and well, it's not surprising there are no winners. I'm sure fixing the probelm is much harder than bitching about a nation, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Just trying to help you get from neurosis to solutions.Actually the crime rate in my immediate neighborhood is not that bad. There have been no burglaries on the block or the one going south or the one after that for five years and only 3 cars stolen in the immediate neighborhood that we are aware of since 2000. No homicides or home invasions. If people are doing drugs they are doing them discretely. This is another reason so many of us in the neighborhood are (how do I put this? less than pleased?) with police attitudes and behaviors in the area.
What makes the police behavior - stopping and asking intimidating questions for no obvious reason, slowly following non-Caucasians for no real reason, walking up to people and asking them point blank questions for no discernable reason (example - IS THIS YOUR DOG???) and then walking away - so unpleasant is that three miles north of me lies the intersection of some of the highest per square foot office rents in the metro area (I'm referring to the Esplanade for those familiar with Phoenix) and the police don't behave quite like that there. I know because over the years I have witnessed how less harsh and more generally civil their interactions tend to be in this nicer area. Not only that but the neighborhood knows this, it's no secret at this point. Claims of all being equal under the law go out the window by this police behavior and naturally trust will be hard to dredge up. There are reasons that I post as I do - this is not some one person vacuum here. Rob
PS Came back to add that the one big crime in my immediate area the past several years was ironically committed by the police themselves - the assault on my neighbors. How's that for dark and ironic?
Do you ever do ride-alongs with your local police, Rob?
Yes, you gun-crazy kids need to do a "ride along", handcuffed in the back of a cruiser, after being arrested for "Driving While Being A Member Of An Oppressed Minority". It might help you gain a perspective that you didn't have before.
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-15, 10:46pm
Do you ever do ride-alongs with your local police, Rob?Simple answer - no. Never. Rob
Simple answer - no. Never. Rob
It's a good way to exercise community oversight.
gimmethesimplelife
4-6-15, 12:07am
It's a good way to exercise community oversight.Bae, I'm having a hard time with your comment here. It is not rude or antagonistic, it's nothing of the sort. That's not the issue. I just am bamboozled that I've gone on and on and on ad infinitum regarding my distrust of the police and stating reasons for this which I believe are logical and justify my issues with the police.
That having been said, and given the nature of what I have shared to date, do you really think I'd get in a police car VOLUNTARILY (?????) and ride around with them for any reason whatsoever? Ay Carumba. Bart Simpson had it right, LOL, Ay Carumba is all I can say to your last post. If you don't understand my Ay Carumba, I invite you to read once again my posts going on and on and on about this topic. Ay Carumba. Rob
Rob, overall I think your complaints and concerns have some merit. I also think the other side have some valid points. For the most part I've generally avoided posting on these "bad cop" threads here because I accept that there's a problem but i'm not sure what the answer is so I prefer to just read them and think. Truthfully though your response to bae's question strikes me as about as 'out there' as John Bolton's response to Obama and the Iran negotiations. Just like Bolton is of the opinion that the only solution to Iran is to bomb the ****ing shit out of them, your only solution to the bad cop issue is to assume that all cops are bad and act accordingly.
If you engage with your local police department I seriously doubt they're going to be looking for reasons to arrest you if you end up going on a ride-along with them. I realize it'll be slightly awkward trying to explain to your friends/family why you are doing this, but ultimately if you can make the connection between them and the police it could be a win win situation for both the cops and your community.
Rob, there is a lot of fear in your comments. Sometimes the best approach is to simply to acknowledge and face the fear head-on. Is there any member of the police force that you feel comfortable with? If not, can a friend suggest someone? Start with someone in uniform, like a soldier, then a firefighter or paramedic and slowly build from there.
Fear is fear and any fear shared with the goal of reducing its power is started by consciousness raising. As a female with 71 years of life experience in several political jurisdictions, I can assure you that I have faced fears as large as yours and dissolved them but you have to mentally prepare your own thinking "first" to regain peace of mind. It all starts there.
I wish you well.
What I respectfully also add, if any of you have not experienced some of what Rob is talking about, you will not have an understanding of its impact mentally emotionally and physically. You, too, need to to do some consciousness raising as well. Reach out to those who fear based on horrible experiences.
I think you kids need to acquire one of those "Roach Coaches" that they have, and incorporate as a not-for-profit, subsisting on donations. Then, use it to drive around, and supply on-duty personnel with coffee and donuts and whatever else they might need. Just as a public service. You can staff it with Volunteers, to save on wage expense. Sounds good, huh?
It's a good way to exercise community oversight.
Likewise I'd suggest that the town and county administrators and local police sit in for a few sessions at municipal court and watch the parade of people being hauled off to jail because they couldn't pay the fines and escalating penalties. Then watch these same people who lose pay from their hourly wage job while they are incarcerated, or worse, lose their jobs completely. And have to figure out child care. And hope it doesn't escalate to a felony which they'll have to report when job-hunting. And hope that they can keep up with their regular bills while trying to repay the courts.
We all look at this from the lens of our own experiences, so it's time for the blinders to drop and see what's really happening.
Around here, where we still have a functioning community and involved community policing, our officers clearly see the consequences of arresting/fining/citing people. As a result, the officers tend to be problem-solvers and peace-keepers, and try to avoid having situations end up in arrest/fines/...
Now, part of this is very self-serving - it takes an officer out-of-service for a huge amount of time if he arrests someone - we have no jail here, transport logistics are a pain, etc. That time he is out-of-service, there's usually no backup available, which is bad in the event Something Serious happens, which it does now-and-then. And if the arrest or citation lead to a trial, that takes the officer out of service for more time later on. The officers I know would rather spend their time doing real public safety work.
I realize other communities have some serious problems with their policing. I choose not to live in those sorts of places.
Now, if you want to see escalating fines leading to complete financial ruin, go try and trim a tree near a "wetlands" around here. You better have a few hundred thousand dollars tucked away...
gimmethesimplelife
4-6-15, 10:16pm
Likewise I'd suggest that the town and county administrators and local police sit in for a few sessions at municipal court and watch the parade of people being hauled off to jail because they couldn't pay the fines and escalating penalties. Then watch these same people who lose pay from their hourly wage job while they are incarcerated, or worse, lose their jobs completely. And have to figure out child care. And hope it doesn't escalate to a felony which they'll have to report when job-hunting. And hope that they can keep up with their regular bills while trying to repay the courts.
We all look at this from the lens of our own experiences, so it's time for the blinders to drop and see what's really happening.Lainey, Thank You for your very reasonable and well thought out post. You have stated yet another aspect of this that I have yet to bring up and one I gather that is foreign to some of the posters here. You are dead on in what you have posted, too. Rob
flowerseverywhere
4-7-15, 6:11am
Lainey, throughout these numerous discussions multiple suggestions have been made to Rob to help the situation besides just hoping for big lawsuits, from individual counseling, to engaging the community to band together to fight racism to helping people lift themselves out of poverty. Every day ordinary people are working for change within their communities.
Your post brings up a whole new issue of our court system. Perhaps you could start a new thread with suggestions on what ordinary citizens can do to get involved to change things.
I used to attend school board meetings when I had kids in school for example. Out of the thousands of kids in the system there were times when Myself and a few other parents were the only ones there besides the board. There were several issues I dealt with and changed because I cared enough to speak, write and get others involved. I worked hard to be exceedingly polite, researched issues for their historical and legal origins before I spoke and saved my comments for the big things. Things won't change until people take an active role in their communities and band together. If people had not stood up for what was right there would still be signs in some areas of the south that say "whites only"
now I am involved with a group that is truly lifting families out of poverty one family at a time. Where there was despair, hope was given. I am marginally involved with another group who is working to restore native plants and is vigorously working to save the Monarchs. They work at the state level as well with community education and involvement. That may seem like a trivial thing in light of the big stuff going on, but each creature has it's place in the ecosystem. Change can be frustratingly slow but it can be done.
I agree there are multiple related causes of the original problems posted about. It's also true that people have busy lives and usually do not devote time to issues they feel do not affect them personally.
Remember the outcry when the Duke lacrosse players were falsely accused of rape? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Duke_University_lacrosse_case These were white upper-class students.
But the most interesting thing to me was to see how shocked their parents were when the prosecutor continued his case against them, even as it was falling apart, because he wanted to win re-election. So these families got a taste of what it was like to have the government aligned against them, and they had to pay expensive defense lawyers to keep their sons from prison. Ultimately justice was done, but it took a long time and a lot of money - something poor people don't have, and hence they are more easily targeted and swept up in scenarios like this but without the tools to fight back.
Finally I also agree that sometimes it is small groups of people working together and helping each other, or even one family at a time, that can make changes happen. But I also firmly believe that we have to remove the structures that permit or even encourage the miscarriages of justice, i.e., for-profit policing, or it will continue.
One simple change: prosecutors and judges should be appointed, not elected. The mere act of having to raise cash from the very lawyers who appear in your courtroom is such an obvious conflict of interest that we can't be surprised when justice fails to be blind.
One simple change: prosecutors and judges should be appointed, not elected. The mere act of having to raise cash from the very lawyers who appear in your courtroom is such an obvious conflict of interest that we can't be surprised when justice fails to be blind.
There is no perfect solution. How independent would judges or prosecutors be in cases against those who appointed them or financed those who appointed them. I'd like to think for the most part they rise above that, but if you want to allege bias it's just a matter of in what direction.
flowerseverywhere
4-7-15, 9:59pm
One simple change: prosecutors and judges should be appointed, not elected. The mere act of having to raise cash from the very lawyers who appear in your courtroom is such an obvious conflict of interest that we can't be surprised when justice fails to be blind.
what can people do to make this change?
There is no perfect solution. How independent would judges or prosecutors be in cases against those who appointed them or financed those who appointed them. I'd like to think for the most part they rise above that, but if you want to allege bias it's just a matter of in what direction.
Canada's legal system does appoint many of the judges and prosecutors and, while not perfect, those appointed have to go through selection process that is fairly objective and lengthy.
I have often wondered how standing for election will impact judicial process in the US. It is not unusual for the candidates standing for election to be equally unacceptable but one gets chosen with serious consequences in the political process with its checks and balances. What happens in judicial circumstances?
IshbelRobertson
4-8-15, 10:27am
In the UK, Our judiciary and prosecutors are appointed, not elected.
In my experience the difference between electing judges and appointing judges is the difference between pandering to the electorate and pandering to the political elites/powerful.
gimmethesimplelife
4-8-15, 1:57pm
Rob, there is a lot of fear in your comments. Sometimes the best approach is to simply to acknowledge and face the fear head-on. Is there any member of the police force that you feel comfortable with? If not, can a friend suggest someone? Start with someone in uniform, like a soldier, then a firefighter or paramedic and slowly build from there.
Fear is fear and any fear shared with the goal of reducing its power is started by consciousness raising. As a female with 71 years of life experience in several political jurisdictions, I can assure you that I have faced fears as large as yours and dissolved them but you have to mentally prepare your own thinking "first" to regain peace of mind. It all starts there.
I wish you well.
What I respectfully also add, if any of you have not experienced some of what Rob is talking about, you will not have an understanding of its impact mentally emotionally and physically. You, too, need to to do some consciousness raising as well. Reach out to those who fear based on horrible experiences.Indeed you are right, there is a lot of fear. I appreciate the end of your post where you make it clear you understand how someone could feel this way. It is not an easy fear to get over, either.
Here is a case in point. Last night I attended a focus group for $75 - it was held between 8:15 PM and 10:45 PM. It was near the airport right off the light rail line. When I left, I was able to take the light rail line to a major street near me but had to walk through a dicey neighborhood that borders the one I live in (closer buses had stopped running by then.) Several police cars went by me, one driving really slowly as if looking for prey. It was very nerve wracking as I was innocently walking home after earning money in an alternative but yet completely legal way. After the attack on my neighbors I keep going on and on about, I have no faith or trust that I won't be attacked, either, though I do know that since I have white skin the odds are less. And I was alone so I was much more vulnerable to the police.
It's frustrating because all through the Ferguson fiasco, even though I am Caucasian, I can on some level understand what the residents of Ferguson were going through. Something very depressing but not the slightest bit of a surprise for me is most (not all, but most) people higher up on the socioeconomic ladder from me just didn't get it. I have really made an effort to understand how something so basic to me could be so hard for someone more insulated from America on this level to understand. My take is that such is not in their reality.....realistically, it would be a stretch for them to understand until such a date as they are no longer insulated from America at this level, which has happened to some people since 2008 and the amped up erosion of the American middle class. i find myself having sympathy for such people, whereas few in my neighborhood do - it must be a shock to experience America at a lower level as it truly is today, especially if they believed they were immune from this.
At any rate, Razz, I appreciate your reaching out and showing some understanding. Thank You. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-8-15, 2:09pm
Something else that is very problematic for me about both the police and the "justice system" for me is that justice is doled out in America based on social class. If you are accused of something, you are much more likely to suffer less serious consequences whether or not you are guilty if you have the money for legal representation, which of course many don't. Every time I see a cop I am afraid as I understand this bitter and unforgivable truth about America, and that we are truly not all created equal.
Something that truly terrifies me about this country is the number of prisoners who have been released the past few years as DNA evidence has proven them innocent but yet the "justice" system has stolen years of their life they can never get back. Anyone believing in America, I challenge you to engage with the life stories of one or two such people and you will discover they were doomed as soon as they were arrested as they could not afford legal representation to protect themselves from America. Yet another reason I have so little faith or trust in the country I live in. To those who say find a way to increase your income and move to a "better" area, one in which I am less likely to run across this - it's far too late in my case as I know this truth about the United States. There is no unlearning it. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-8-15, 2:13pm
Indeed you are right, there is a lot of fear. I appreciate the end of your post where you make it clear you understand how someone could feel this way. It is not an easy fear to get over, either.
Here is a case in point. Last night I attended a focus group for $75 - it was held between 8:15 PM and 10:45 PM. It was near the airport right off the light rail line. When I left, I was able to take the light rail line to a major street near me but had to walk through a dicey neighborhood that borders the one I live in (closer buses had stopped running by then.) Several police cars went by me, one driving really slowly as if looking for prey. It was very nerve wracking as I was innocently walking home after earning money in an alternative but yet completely legal way. After the attack on my neighbors I keep going on and on about, I have no faith or trust that I won't be attacked, either, though I do know that since I have white skin the odds are less. And I was alone so I was much more vulnerable to the police.
It's frustrating because all through the Ferguson fiasco, even though I am Caucasian, I can on some level understand what the residents of Ferguson were going through. Something very depressing but not the slightest bit of a surprise for me is most (not all, but most) people higher up on the socioeconomic ladder from me just didn't get it. I have really made an effort to understand how something so basic to me could be so hard for someone more insulated from America on this level to understand. My take is that such is not in their reality.....realistically, it would be a stretch for them to understand until such a date as they are no longer insulated from America at this level, which has happened to some people since 2008 and the amped up erosion of the American middle class. i find myself having sympathy for such people, whereas few in my neighborhood do - it must be a shock to experience America at a lower level as it truly is today, especially if they believed they were immune from this.
At any rate, Razz, I appreciate your reaching out and showing some understanding. Thank You. Rob
Something else I'd like to add - those posters here who don't understand my fear. Be grateful. Be grateful that you don't have to weigh the chance to earn $75 from participating in a focus group vs. walking home alone through a dicey neighborhood bordering where you live and being alone and vulnerable to the police. Be grateful that you don't know this fear and that you don't have to make cold blooded decisions regarding money vs. your personal safety from the police. Be very grateful indeed, especially if my words sound like a foreign language to you. Be grateful. Rob
Canada's legal system does appoint many of the judges and prosecutors and, while not perfect, those appointed have to go through selection process that is fairly objective and lengthy.
razz and Ishbel, we have the same here in Arizona. For state court positions as judges and commissioners, lawyers can nominate themselves or be nominated by a judicial commission. There is an application and vetting process which includes whether they identify as Republicans, Democrats or Independents, and this is all submitted to the governor, I believe, who makes the appointment. Surprisingly the governor does not always appoint someone from their own party.
After their initial appointment, the judges names are on the regular public ballot for voters to decide if they should be reappointed. It's a very good system although our very red state legislature rails against it because it's the judiciary which so often overturns the hare-brained laws they are always trying to pass.
The Arizona judiciary is the best part of our governmental system, IMO. In contrast, try going to a court in Texas up against a local attorney who is the campaign coordinator for the judge who is trying your case. Oh yes, it happens.
My respect to the sacrifices you and your brothers and sisters in arms put in to make sure warm tasty food is delivered with care. We all owe you! I'll go do another 15 miles today with a 90 pound pack in your honor.
Boy, I'm glad Rob's tale of stress inspired me to work out more!
Last week we had a full gasoline tanker truck get loose, roll over down an embankment, and come to rest, leaking thousands of gallons of product, within about 70 feet of a propane tank farm with hundreds of thousands of gallons of propane stored.
We had to evacuate everyone within 1/4->1/2 mile (depending on how far along we were at fixing it.)
I was the first guy on the end of the fire hose as we approached it, and spent a day and a half wearing 80 pounds of gear on SCBA in the blast zone while I was laying foam onto the tanker and ground to contain the vapors. While trying to get the tanker drained and righted without killing 1200 people, and making sure the spilled product didn't get into the water table (which was only 5 feet down at that spot). I lost 9 pounds during the incident.
So, I think now I have an inkling of the sort of stress Rob might be under when he's juggling a couple of orders. Brutal!
On edit: there were a couple of police officers on scene too, helping out, in the blast zone. They were wearing their cotton uniforms, not fire gear, they would have died like gnats if something went wrong.
I don't get the need for the heavy sarcasm, bae. There are many many people who work difficult demanding often dangerous jobs in addition to firefighters. Would any of those first responders change places with: a coal miner? a corrections officer in a high security prison? a worker in a high level psychiatric facility? or even a stint as a teacher in a school in a bad neighborhood? or a worker in a meat plant?
Everyone works to their ability, both in the physical and emotional temperament they can handle. So kudos to those who thrive on the edge, and also kudos to those who get up every day and get the work done that needs to be done because of and sometimes despite their individual capabilities.
I don't get the need for the heavy sarcasm, bae.
See up-thread. And I wasn't being entirely sarcastic, I upped my PT regime after the above conversation, and it stood me in good stead during this event.
Y'know--you guys should've formed up a bucket brigade, and pulled your personal vehicles up, and filled the tanks with gas.
Y'know--you guys should've formed up a bucket brigade, and pulled your personal vehicles up, and filled the tanks with gas.
I believe that is how this HAZMAT situation would have been handled here 50 years ago.
It's absolutely sarcastic. Is this about who is the biggest badass? or who complains about their job more?
Because there's plenty of people to admire who are courageous outside of the physical realm. Read "The Courage of Their Convictions" by Peter Irons about everyday citizens who fought for their rights at great personal expense to themselves and their families. Some won and some lost and most are names we would not recognize, but the rest of us are better off for what they did. That's strength.
It's absolutely sarcastic. Is this about who is the biggest badass? or who complains about their job more?
Nope...
Because there's plenty of people to admire who are courageous outside of the physical realm.
I'm not sure how you jump to the conclusion that the most stressful jobs involve physical stress. The hard part of firefighting and heavy rescue is mostly mental, frankly. Rob claims, against most of the data that waiting tables is up there though. Probably why he has PTSD. #StolenValor
gimmethesimplelife
4-20-15, 12:17am
It's absolutely sarcastic. Is this about who is the biggest badass? or who complains about their job more?
Because there's plenty of people to admire who are courageous outside of the physical realm. Read "The Courage of Their Convictions" by Peter Irons about everyday citizens who fought for their rights at great personal expense to themselves and their families. Some won and some lost and most are names we would not recognize, but the rest of us are better off for what they did. That's strength.I could not agree more with you, Lainey. When I think of strength and courage, I think of Rosa Parks - her act of non violent non compliance sparked change. That to me took real courage and I'm honest enough to admit I don't have that level of courage - but I take my hat off to it and respect it a great deal. Rob
flowerseverywhere
4-20-15, 12:40am
I could not agree more with you, Lainey. When I think of strength and courage, I think of Rosa Parks - her act of non violent non compliance sparked change. That to me took real courage and I'm honest enough to admit I don't have that level of courage - but I take my hat off to it and respect it a great deal. Rob
so far all I have heard is how much you distrust and have no faith in America. Name one thing you do to make it a better place? How are you nitiating change? Previously you stated even if an old man was being assaulted or a young woman being gang raped you would not call the police. I just cannot reconcile your statement that basic healthcare is your right however you would not step up to help someone defenseless. It just does not make sense to me. We all have a shared responsibility here. That is the framework for a strong community, strong nation.
And Rosa Parks might not be the best example. In subsequent interviews Rosa Parks saiid she did not want to start a protest. Her feet were sore and she was tired. So she sat down.
ApatheticNoMore
4-20-15, 2:27am
And Rosa Parks might not be the best example. In subsequent interviews Rosa Parks saiid she did not want to start a protest. Her feet were sore and she was tired. So she sat down.
I'm not sure where she claimed this, she apparently also has claimed otherwise that she was not tired "No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in" is quoted many places, though I can't say I can confirm the quote supposedly in a book she wrote after the fact. Anyway quote or no, just tired and that's all? She had been a member and active volunteer of the NAACP for a decade by that point. But all without conviction that blacks should have more rights? I don't believe it. She had already previously refused to enter a bus from the back (not illegal as she just in effect boycotted her own personal bus ride that time). She had been involved in activism, not being a personal hero activism, more like going to a few meetings with activists, training youth, monetarily supporting trials where black men were falsely accused etc.. Whether she planned that exact day to resist is doubtful, some claim she did know the NAACP was looking for a test case, but it doesn't mean she really planned to BE THE TEST CASE.
I suspect it works something like this: you are involved in the NAACP, you hear plenty about black rights, you hear about plans for boycotts, you hear about people here and there refusing to give up their seats, you believe in the fight for equal rights for blacks, when someone treats you as inferior because you are black it irritates personally and because you believe you should have equal rights. Then a confrontation ensues, you didn't' start it and maybe you are just thinking about your work day or getting home or whatever, you are asked to give up your seat, you see the opportunity open up before you in that instant, in light of the fact of the cases here and there you are already aware of of people refusing, the opportunity to do the right thing now. You do. I suspect that's more likely than a confrontation being planned that day, although it's possible they could have gone out looking for it. Certainly as soon as it happened the NAACP kicked in, flyers are distributed for boycotting busses ASAP etc. Courage? Yes. Anyone would have done it? No. But did it occur in a vacuum? No.
so far all I have heard is how much you distrust and have no faith in America. Name one thing you do to make it a better place? How are you nitiating change? Previously you stated even if an old man was being assaulted or a young woman being gang raped you would not call the police. I just cannot reconcile your statement that basic healthcare is your right however you would not step up to help someone defenseless. It just does not make sense to me. We all have a shared responsibility here. That is the framework for a strong community, strong nation.
Amen! Great post, flowerseverywhere!
flowerseverywhere
4-20-15, 8:17am
Apathetic, you are correct. I misspoke. Perhaps what would have been better phrasing was that Rosa was an ordinary person who did not set out to change everything that one day. She simply got tired and had enough. Of course like all of us her actions were influenced by her experiences. Those were evil times in our history and thank goodness for courageous people like her.
All over the world there are people who have had enough. people who spend time preparing and serving meals to the poor. People who are volunteer tutors in schools so maybe a child can read better. People who work with the countless refugees around the world fleeing war, ethnic cleansing and poverty. People working to better race relations so that people of color can have a chance. Just look at some of the more well known ones, like doctors without borders, habitat for humanity and the wounded warrior project.
I for one am so grateful I was born and live in the US. I am proud of all the people I know who are trying to make the world a better place through paid and volunteer work. If you see something that isn't right, start to figure out how to change it, even in the smallest way. You don't have to be the first black woman to stay seated on a bus.
By the way, I find it ironic that in many countries you would be jailed or disappear for all the anti government things that have been posted here. However, we have the freedom to change things.
As Ghandi said "you must be the change you wish to see in this world".
I am continued to be amazed at how some people will use any given subject to brag, no matter how inappropriate it might be.
flowerseverywhere
4-20-15, 10:00am
I am continued to be amazed at how some people will use any given subject to brag, no matter how inappropriate it might be.
Are you referring to me? If so, please be specific.
Nope, definitely not you flowers...........
flowerseverywhere
4-20-15, 4:05pm
Nope, definitely not you flowers............ Good I try not to be offensive. I just really believe that we are not powerless. We can change things but it sometimes is frustratingly slow. But even little steps will get someone up a seemingly insurmountable hill if you keep at it.
And it doesn't have to involve risk. For instance helping someone who does not speak or read English well with the language might help them get a better job or pass a driver license test or follow directions and answer questions if they are stopped by the police. Raising money to buy books for the library, or fire department, or volunteering at the local soup kitchen can be a tremendous help to someone in need. We are all in this together and everytime we help those less fortunate, no matter how small makes the world a better place
I missed the part where Americans acknowledged the inalienable right to feel comfortable all the time in any situation. Cops, firefighters, cancer patients, whistle blowers, Republican professors.... There are countless brave people in this country, but for the most part our citizens need to grow a pair. We are slipping away from greatness for a lot of reasons, but the need to be mollycoddled at every turn certainly doesn't help. No, we don't need everyone to be John Wayne, but I mean really. If I own a cafe and you're uncomfortable eating there because a cop comes in you can get your milk toast somewhere else. Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
And then there's the difference between hard and stressful. Building cinder block walls is hard. Being an air traffic controller is stressful. Relatively speaking, most service jobs are neither. We owned a small restaurant years ago and did every job there, all day, every day. Getting busy during rush hour and dealing with the occasional jerk was about as bad as it got. The only source of real anxiety was when it came time to pay bills and meet payroll! Anyway, nothing there compared to the possibility of facing a life threatening situation even once, let alone daily. In the end everyone deserves respect as a human being and every job should afford the opportunity to carry it out with dignity. No one should argue that, but the volume of the whining in this country is deafening. Maybe instead of waiting in vein for a savior to rise from the streets (can't beat paraphrasing The Boss) its time for those of us that don't have infinite resources to start doing things a little differently.
I missed the part where Americans acknowledged the inalienable right to feel comfortable all the time in any situation. Cops, firefighters, cancer patients, whistle blowers, Republican professors.... There are countless brave people in this country, but for the most part our citizens need to grow a pair. We are slipping away from greatness for a lot of reasons, but the need to be mollycoddled at every turn certainly doesn't help. No, we don't need everyone to be John Wayne, but I mean really. If I own a cafe and you're uncomfortable eating there because a cop comes in you can get your milk toast somewhere else. Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
And then there's the difference between hard and stressful. Building cinder block walls is hard. Being an air traffic controller is stressful. Relatively speaking, most service jobs are neither. We owned a small restaurant years ago and did every job there, all day, every day. Getting busy during rush hour and dealing with the occasional jerk was about as bad as it got. The only source of real anxiety was when it came time to pay bills and meet payroll! Anyway, nothing there compared to the possibility of facing a life threatening situation even once, let alone daily. In the end everyone deserves respect as a human being and every job should afford the opportunity to carry it out with dignity. No one should argue that, but the volume of the whining in this country is deafening. Maybe instead of waiting in vein for a savior to rise from the streets (can't beat paraphrasing The Boss) its time for those of us that don't have infinite resources to start doing things a little differently.
I completely agree with you. Universities used to be a place to hear divergent opinions and have your assumptions challenged. Now students cower in "safe zones" to shield themselves from upsetting ideas. We've never been safer, but fret over all kinds of low-probability threats. We invent new classes of victim and villain constantly. Just the other day I read an article about the "social privilege" wielded by extroverts over introverts. Politicians portray themselves as the messiahs of the middle class, and large numbers of us lap it up.
I'm not sure of the cause. Maybe it's decades of victim-based identity politics coming home to roost. Maybe it's a terror of competition inculcated from childhood. Maybe it's a displacement of sterner, traditional belief systems by feel-good pop psychology. Maybe it's eliminating the draft or expanding litigation.
I'm not sure what the solution is.
Yossarian
4-22-15, 11:58am
Probably just another facet of hedonic adaptation.
ApatheticNoMore
4-22-15, 12:18pm
Stressful is difficult because it's by definition a glitch. It's the primitive brain responding to 21st century conditions it was never wired for. Responding to the deadline like it's a tiger. So a lot can be stressful: deadlines, abusive bosses, not knowing how the rent will be paid etc..
I'm often very very glad to be female because support myself I do, but that's just holding a job, but because the social pressure to be John Wayne is less. I don't know if it's overall better to be female or male or anything (being either kind of sucks, but for different reasons, as far as I can see :)) - but that part definitely is better to be female, don't have to be John Wayne.
Flowerseverywhere..........I tried to send you a PM, but I guess you don't accept them. But my comment had absolutely nothing to do what with you've said.
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