View Full Version : SC shooting
We seem to get a thread on each controversial shooting. As always, condolences for those suffering and we should wait for all the facts to come out. But maybe on this one we will get some consensus.
On its own, that video doesn't look all that helpful to the officer's claims, nor does what appears to be him walking back after the shooting and tampering with/moving evidence.
The cop was fired and charged with murder but the protest machine is still gearing up. Not sure what else .gov can do at this point.
It's going to be tough for this cop and his lawyers to spin this one. If you're going to shoot someone in the back, it's a good idea to make sure nobody's videotaping you.
If you're going to shoot someone in the back, it's a good idea to make sure nobody's videotaping you.
It's not uncommon to end up shooting someone in the back in a legitimate use-of-force incident. Usually that happens at much closer range than is shown in this video, as part of a struggle.
In many jurisdictions, you are also allowed to shoot a fleeing felon to prevent their escape if you HAVE "probable cause to believe that the suspect, if not apprehended, poses a threat of serious physical harm to the officer or a threat of serious physical harm to others." Shooting them in the back is acceptable in this situation.
Sure took him a lot of shots to shoot him. What was the original offense besides something like a broken tail light? Did the cop have a camera on? Almost seems like the cop just wanted to get him one. It's pretty clear he picked up the tazer and laid it beside the guy. There's rotten apples in every bunch.
Sure took him a lot of shots to shoot him.
Most are trained to continue firing until there is no longer a threat. This typically results in "lots of shots", especially under stress.
The "shoot once, then evaluate" method only really happens in movies these days.
In other news, 20 other black people were shot today, by black people, in separate incidents.....
In other news, 20 other black people were shot today, by black people, in separate incidents.....
In Indianapolis, almost every single night there's black on black killing.
Bae.......what I meant was, he wasn't a very good shot, unless he was just trying to scare him and accidentally hit him.
iris lilies
4-8-15, 6:08pm
In other news, 20 other black people were shot today, by black people, in separate incidents.....
"Black Lives Matter" are the signs all over my area.
I drove past two totems yesterday. The biggest one was a (suspected) gang shooting of a father and mother in a car with multiple children. Both parents dead. Of course, we do not know the skin color of the gangbanger who targeted them.
Bae.......what I meant was, he wasn't a very good shot, unless he was just trying to scare him and accidentally hit him.
Turns out almost nobody is a good shot under any sort of stress, even with a fair amount of training, which IMNSHO most police don't receive.
Hit rate by police against an opponent shooting back is ~18%. Against opponents not shooting back, about 34%.
I'm just sitting here, thinking that humans may have a touch of "tonic immobility", a defense mechanism in the face of imminent harm where certain animals go limp as though they are dead. People may have an overpowering need to keep low, not pursue, but flee any danger. They may feel weak. S'why a mental process that requires focus, like aiming at a target, may be greatly reduced in a dangerous situation. But, that is just a guess as to why people with guns in their homes and on their person are not necessarily SAFER on the whole. It just fills a need to feel secure.
I grew up target shooting on Sunday's and coon hunting in the fall with my dad with rifles. Then as an adult I did some target practice with hand guns. Hand guns are really tough to shoot accurately. I can't imagine being a good enough shot with adrenaline flowing, to hit a moving target in the first few shots.
I know there's injustice everywhere. But I feel empathy for our police. I'm a nurse. Lots of horror stories about healthcare can circulate. But I see the daily realities of it all. It's not as simple as blaming nurses or cops. It's systemic and multi factorial.
gimmethesimplelife
4-8-15, 7:50pm
I grew up target shooting on Sunday's and coon hunting in the fall with my dad with rifles. Then as an adult I did some target practice with hand guns. Hand guns are really tough to shoot accurately. I can't imagine being a good enough shot with adrenaline flowing, to hit a moving target in the first few shots.
I know there's injustice everywhere. But I feel empathy for our police. I'm a nurse. Lots of horror stories about healthcare can circulate. But I see the daily realities of it all. It's not as simple as blaming nurses or cops. It's systemic and multi factorial.Tammy, I'd agree with you that this is systemic and multi-factored. I also believe as with many other issues, ain't no easy solution. But I do see some positive lately - more people are becoming aware that there are issues with the police and the justice system - people who probably were stressed out with busy lives and luckily did not have exposure to these issues often if at all. At least there is more awareness now. Rob
Rob, we'll have to see what the facts are, but initially it looks like you may finally have a good example for your cause. I think the problem many of us had with recent public causes celeb wasn't that we were not aware or don't acknowledge that bad things happen, it was the cases didn't really turn out to fit the alleged pattern. Round pegs in square holes if you will. And it is wrong to sacrifice innocent people on the alter of public unrest. But this one so far is as close to unanimous as we've had, and you can credit the video for much of that. But then I'm not sure there is much to protest because the official reaction has been what you'd want, no?
But this one so far is as close to unanimous as we've had, and you can credit the video for much of that. But then I'm not sure there is much to protest because the official reaction has been what you'd want, no?
For reference, there are somewhere between 400 and 1000 shootings by US police each year that result in death. Of the roughly 2.6 million deaths each year.
How many of those police killings are not justifiable homicide?
In 2013, ~3400 people in the USA died from malnutrition. How many of those deaths were justifiable, in our society?
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr64/nvsr64_02.pdf
There were ~30,000 deaths from *falls* in the USA that year. How many of you over the age of 50 still own ladders? I've had to deal with several deaths over the last several months from that cause, but I don't think my county has had a police shooting in the last 100 years.
gimmethesimplelife
4-8-15, 8:37pm
Rob, we'll have to see what the facts are, but initially it looks like you may finally have a good example for your cause. I think the problem many of us had with recent public causes celeb wasn't that we were not aware or don't acknowledge that bad things happen, it was the cases didn't really turn out to fit the alleged pattern. Round pegs in square holes if you will. And it is wrong to sacrifice innocent people on the alter of public unrest. But this one so far is as close to unanimous as we've had, and you can credit the video for much of that. But then I'm not sure there is much to protest because the official reaction has been what you'd want, no?Please don't be too surprised but I am not up to date on what happened in South Carolina - it's been a busy day so far today and I only heard of this from some neighbors I passed by on my way home. I will post later once I know more. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-8-15, 9:39pm
I read online about this shooting and of course I watched the video. Very chilling. I watched a video of the victim's brother speaking to the press and I was so amazed with his composure - I doubt I'd be so composed if I had a brother who was killed by a police officer this way. I'm also impressed by the mayor of North Charleston, SC, who met the press and said something to the effect that this officer is going to have to live with the consequences of his decision to shoot and kill. My take? There is not a single regular reader here by now who doesn't know at least roughly my take at this point. I'm going to spare everyone my take. But I will make a point before I close.
I'm very grateful this was caught on video. I''m thinking without this video the officer involved might not be facing the music for his decision to shoot and kill. My point? ALWAYS have a least 1/2 charged smartphone on you with video capability - ALWAYS. See how the video is shaping this story? How it is shaping even the Mayor's response to the press? For those out there who think I talk in Greek or Russian or Arabic or some other foreign language with characters completely unlike those in the English language - this story is why you need to have video capability on yourself at all times to protect yourself from America. Truly things have come to the point of ignore this advice at your own risk. Rob
this story is why you need to have video capability on you at all times to protect yourself from America. Truly things have come to the point of ignore this advice at your own risk.
Well, not exactly. The better course may be to not resist arrest or engage in physical altercations with the police. As disturbing as the video is, it wouldn't have mattered how much juice was in the guy's phone.
gimmethesimplelife
4-9-15, 11:53am
My future husband just texted me - turns out there is a lawsuit coming up in Florida for the police shooting and killing of a mentally ill man under circumstances that the NAACP states were avoidable as it was a non-threatening mental health issue. Anyone interested, check yahoo.news, it's one of the top stories of the moment. I have not as of yet watched the video as I have to get going for a lunch banquet shift at the Convention Center and need to move on - will watch the video later today.
My point here is that it's starting - more people stepping forward and suing the police and bringing their stories and video to both the media and social media. I'm so relieved - this is long, long, long, long, long overdue that victims are aggressively holding the police accountable for their actions - but it IS happening. I can't see the tide turning back to keeping silent and accepting the role of victim. Maybe some positive change will eventually take place - who knows? But not before some large and juicy settlements are doled out it would seem. Rob
But not before some large and juicy settlements are doled out it would seem.
I am more a believer in individual responsibility over collective guilt. I'd rather see the responsible officers, once tried and convicted and found guilty, send to prison like any other criminal for years and years - that SC officer is looking at a potential life sentence.
Rather than see a "large and juicy settlement" paid for out of the tax dollars of the very people and community the officer betrayed.
Teacher Terry
4-9-15, 2:59pm
I am so glad that this was caught on video & firing him & charging him with murder were the right things to do. HOpefully, it will make police realize that they are not above the law.
I am more a believer in individual responsibility over collective guilt. I'd rather see the responsible officers, once tried and convicted and found guilty, send to prison like any other criminal for years and years - that SC officer is looking at a potential life sentence.
Rather than see a "large and juicy settlement" paid for out of the tax dollars of the very people and community the officer betrayed.
+1. And another +1.
gimmethesimplelife
4-9-15, 5:13pm
I am more a believer in individual responsibility over collective guilt. I'd rather see the responsible officers, once tried and convicted and found guilty, send to prison like any other criminal for years and years - that SC officer is looking at a potential life sentence.
Rather than see a "large and juicy settlement" paid for out of the tax dollars of the very people and community the officer betrayed.Prep yourself, Bae, to be surprised. Seriously. I don't disagree with what you have posted here, not at all. The only reason I advocate for large settlements is that in my experience having lived in the US most of my 48 years, large settlements are often necessary as drivers of social change. Especially in established institutions. Enough large settlements, enough people stepping out of the woodwork to claim their paydays against injustice and eventually things change. I wish it didn't take this to effect change to be honest with you but in my experience in the US, it often does require this. Whatever. At least it seems that change is in the air - perhaps. We'll see. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-9-15, 5:14pm
I am so glad that this was caught on video & firing him & charging him with murder were the right things to do. HOpefully, it will make police realize that they are not above the law.Teacher Terry - YES! And Thank You for your post. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-9-15, 5:18pm
Something I'd like to add that I am very much impressed with - the woman this former officer in SC is married to is pregnant and the city is keeping her on her husband's insurance until she gives birth even though her husband has been fired. Some city official was stated as saying this was the humane thing to do - I'm so impressed with this I can't begin to describe it. Not only is there a victim in the deceased, and the family of the deceased, but there is also the collateral damage of this schmuck's family that I consider victims to some degree too. At least in this case the collateral damage of the family is being considered, too. Kudos from me to whoever was in charge of this decision. Rob
When has social change ever been driven by a legal settlement?
When has social change ever been driven by a legal settlement?I think that is a very good question. Various minority group activists, and their followers, are being incentivized to keep racism, sexism, etc., alive and well, because, just like the Lottery, you MAY see a big windfall. So, they continue to um, push the envelope, in testing everyones' patience, so that they can provoke someone into "Discriminating" against them, as a group or as individuals. It's a game, but it's a lot harder to play than the media makes it out to be. But they play, anyway. Welcome to the New American Economy.
Something I'd like to add that I am very much impressed with - the woman this former officer in SC is married to is pregnant and the city is keeping her on her husband's insurance until she gives birth even though her husband has been fired....... Not only is there a victim in the deceased, and the family of the deceased, but there is also the collateral damage of this schmuck's family.... Collateral Damage--I like that expression. Now figure this out--who is going to pay the cops' child support, if she divorces him(the outcome, I expect), when he goes up the River for a term in the joint? Probably, a donor base of sympathizers, as a result of this highly-publicized case. Maybe she can buy a new home, go on a trip, and buy a new car, too. And so, it just keeps on.
Teacher Terry
4-10-15, 1:01pm
Yes Rob, I agree that paying her health insurance is the right thing to do. I hope that poor woman has a job. What an awful time in her life for this to be happening.
When has social change ever been driven by a legal settlement?
I would say there has definitely been social change that has progressed due to legal proceedings, not necessarily legal settlements. The women's rights movement is one example. When businesses realized they were having to pay court settlements due to their discrimination, it changed their hiring and promotion practices. I'm old enough to remember seeing the want ads separated by "Help - Male" and "Help - Female." I'm sure there are still some business owners who wish they could advertise like that, but it's the fear of paying a legal judgment that has made sure they don't do that.
Companies used to avoid hiring females with spurious excuses like lifting requirements. One woman brought suit to change that: http://openjurist.org/467/f2d/95
That judgment, and others like it, ushered in monumental change in women's employment rights. As I understand it, Libertarians are fully supportive of litigation to redress social inequities.
U.S. v Windsor is another landmark case for gay rights, where people began to see that all kinds of people were adversely affected by government proscription of gay marriage--including a deceptively fragile older widow fighting for the right to inherit her wife's property. Wikipedia called it a "landmark civil rights case." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Windsor
I could probably find dozens of legal cases that focused attention on civil rights issues and changed hearts and minds if I had the inclination to do so. Along with a few good riots, litigation can change the course of history.
I think its more a case of the hearts and minds changing first, and then the law following. Short of genocide, its close to impossible to change a culture by fiat.
It may not be possible to change minds and hearts with litigation, but it can change actions. Once the actions are altered, evidence against unreasonable cultural bias is presented, at which point hearts and minds may change as well. If someone believes a Black woman can't make a good manager but feels legal pressure to give her the job, and she turns out to be great at it, their mind is probably going to change. Would be nice if their mind just magically changed first, but why would that happen?
Agree with kib - if your culture includes marrying off girls as child brides, and you move to the U.S., you may not have a change of heart about that practice but for sure you will not be able to practice it.
Agree with kib - if your culture includes marrying off girls as child brides, and you move to the U.S., you may not have a change of heart about that practice but for sure you will not be able to practice it.
That's not social change. That's enforcement of existing norms. i still maintain the law follows in the wake of cultural evolution, not the other way around.
I do agree with you to a certain point; there has to be some wave of popular thought going in a certain direction before laws change. I'm thinking the driver shifts back and forth - some change in cultural bias, driven by an oppressed group or their supporters if they are voiceless, a change in law, more change in cultural bias, and eventually the mindset of the culture as a whole shifts, although there will probably always be holdouts against culturally agreed standards.
And there are times when the political elites attempt to impose some new social standard, and get rebuffed by the culture they're trying to regulate. The attempt to outlaw alcohol was a try at top-down social change, and ended in bloody, miserable failure. What was the Reagan Revolution if not a popular rejection of the government-knows-best mindset of the 1930s-1970s? When President Obama's position on same-sex marriage "evolved", wasn't he just surfing the waves of popular culture? Was that a moral epiphany or simply a calculation that it was now safe to antagonize the bitter clingers out there?
Sure, politicians have jumped the gun on both regulation and deregulation - Roe v. Wade is still being challenged 40+ years later because it pushed too much too fast. The way I see it at the moment, these grinning hand wavers get elected based on whether we agree with them, so it's not surprising they're all over the board trying to find a policy sweet spot that keeps them in favor.
That's not social change. That's enforcement of existing norms. i still maintain the law follows in the wake of cultural evolution, not the other way around.
There's some evidence that second-generation Muslims who live in 1st world countries, especially Europe, moderate their views to a more socially liberal one vs. their immigrant parents. That happens because they are the minority in those countries, for now, and have to obey those laws in place. And as they see those laws are actually better for society and themselves, they accept them.
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