View Full Version : A Sense of Place vs. Following the $$
catherine
4-11-15, 10:53am
I was on the road doing research this past week, and I was chatting with my client's colleague. He had just moved about a year ago from Pittsburgh to a rural NJ town pretty near his corporate office. I asked him how he liked NJ and he said, "I don't." He started telling me about how he LOVES Pittsburgh and how hard it was to leave.
Then he told me that he hates how expensive NJ is, which is no new news, BUT he told me that he pays $34,000/year in PROPERTY TAXES!!! I kept asking him to repeat that. Then I started getting a fuller picture--he said he and his wife like "nice things" and they're' going to try to downsize, but the problem with smaller houses is they don't have the quality of big houses. He wants a small house with a 4-car garage. He has 4 cars. I kept thinking this guy has REALLY drunk the Kool-Aid. I suggested a couple of towns for him that are beautiful and very tony with less tax burden, but he kept going back to how underrated Pittsburgh is.
I believe some people have a strong sense of place and they find meaning in being rooted: like Scarlett was to Tara. Others (like our dear Spartana) are more nomadic. I get that. And I also get that sometimes you have to move to find work, and may people move multiple times to be able to achieve their financial goals.
But the subtext in this guy's story was that he would rather give up a place he loved in order to get these "nice things": like a huge house that carries a $34k property tax burden and so much space for cars that he could start a dealership in his driveway. What's wrong with this picture?
Have you ever had to sacrifice your "roots" to find work? Have you ever sacrificed money in order to be able to stay put?
From observing what is happening in my own city, I get the sense that many people today especially with higher incomes don't really value a sense of home/place anymore. Community, traditions, those things are disappearing as many want instant gratification. They will go wherever the income is highest and amenities greatest to have their status and lifestyle maintained. We now have a lot of people moving in from places like NJ and NY because it so much more affordable for them. Talk about a difference in place. New Jersey to Texas. It troubles me a lot that my own neighborhood is quickly being dismembered by outsiders moving in, scraping and building huge luxurious homes that this new demographic must have. We would love to stay here in retirement but will have to find another more affordable home/place to try and put down roots again.
I wanted to continue my sense of community with a modest little home that would house me for the next decades. When I mentioned my reasoning to some, I realized that some do not have a sense of community and its benefits which are quite different from a large home with amenities. This seems a loss to me but maybe if you have not experienced it as a strong value in your life, it is not a priority. Interesting, isn't it?
iris lilies
4-11-15, 1:26pm
cost of living has ALWAYS been the keystone of my geographic choice. I love cities and would have loved to live in NYC or Chicago or SF. But it was important to me to buy a house and that,s not possible there. When I moved to St. Louis after a few stints in college towns, I learned that St Louis
has most of the things I liked about an old city with very reasonable cost of living.
relating to the guy in the OP, it,s hard to imagine. That there are no McMansion subdivisions in Pittsburgh or even old suburbs that have huge old houses with room for 4 car garage.
ApatheticNoMore
4-11-15, 2:03pm
But the subtext in this guy's story was that he would rather give up a place he loved in order to get these "nice things": like a huge house that carries a $34k property tax burden and so much space for cars that he could start a dealership in his driveway. What's wrong with this picture?
the cynical answer is his wife :~). If he moved there largely for her ....
I think people can very seldom get everything they want in the same place and so they make trade offs, and are usually caught up in forces much larger than themselves (like even if one wants to stay in their small town or whatever, if there are no jobs for one, it's not going to happen. The trade off there is choosing to keep one's head above water. We don't live in that type of society and at a certain point it's foolish to blame people for it. Although yes 4 car guy is ridiculous).
relating to the guy in the OP, it,s hard to imagine. That there are no McMansion subdivisions in Pittsburgh or even old suburbs that have huge old houses with room for 4 car garage.
I think the question for me wasn't about whether or not he could find a McMansion in Pittsburgh.. it was more about the choice (maybe it wasn't a choice--to ANM's point) to take a job that required relocation from a place he loved. He did say that there are no jobs in Pittsburgh, but if he really loved Pittsburgh, I'm thinking that he probably could have maybe found something--perhaps not as well-paying. That's what I meant about making the choice: High-paying job with a relo vs. lower-paying job with community.
Pittsburgh, eh? I gave you kids some options on my "Moving To What Cheer Iowa", but most of you ignored it. I guess What Cheer isn't "Toney" or "Trendy" enough. You won't have that smug self-satisfaction of living in a place that is on some list of "Ten Most Insufferably Upscale Places To Live" that you see in some magazine article. I doubt that they have any fancy-schmancy restaurants that serve $100-a-plate meals of inedible food. Well-okay. But, are you SURE you don't want to move to Pittsburg, Kansas? I sure wouldn't mind it; and I had a chance to do so and let it go. Hey--it's a College Town(Football team name: Pitt State Gorillas); it has a Wal-Mart SuperCenter; a Dillon's(Kroger); many, many small retail businesses, and several auto salvage yards. I'm reasonably sure they have a lirrrrarrry, and---because SE Ks has a significant number of people of Italian descent-- some Authentic Italian-Style Pizza Places too. Plus, Kansas is an interesting place. Very down to earth. Plus, their liquor laws and others relating to Vices aren't quite as strict as Zurra. Your vehicles do not require any annual inspections. Check it out. You can forget about Beverly Hills or Martha's Vineyard. Hope that helps you some. Thank Me.
I did kind of the opposite, I moved from an expensive place where I had, if not "community", at least a network of friends within commuting distance and a high paying job, to a place where I knew basically no one but could afford to live without a job at all. I did choose a place that seemed to have good potential for friendliness and community, to some extent that turned out to be right. Then we moved to a place where the jobs were better and the community not so good, I'm not particularly happy with this choice. Given that I miss my friends, in fact I've lamented the loss of friends with both moves, if I were picking out of the blue I think I'd vote for community over pay-and-possessions next time. I grew up in a place that didn't feel like there was much community in it, which may be why I didn't have any great hardship in leaving that childhood town.
Pittsburgh, eh? ... are you SURE you don't want to move to Pittsburg, Kansas? I sure wouldn't mind it; and I had a chance to do so and let it go. Hey--it's a College Town(Football team name: Pitt State Gorillas); it has a Wal-Mart SuperCenter; a Dillon's(Kroger); many, many small retail businesses, and several auto salvage yards. I'm reasonably sure they have a lirrrrarrry, and---because SE Ks has a significant number of people of Italian descent-- some Authentic Italian-Style Pizza Places too. Plus, Kansas is an interesting place. Very down to earth. Plus, their liquor laws and others relating to Vices aren't quite as strict as Zurra. Your vehicles do not require any annual inspections. Check it out. You can forget about Beverly Hills or Martha's Vineyard. Hope that helps you some. Thank Me. Just gotta say, I had a peculiar experience with Kansas that sorta bears you out. Car camping from Indiana to Arizona, went through Kansas on the back roads (ok, in a Miata with the top down, I'm a little bit country and a little bit Beverly Hills, I admit) and had this huge grin on my face the entire time. No good reason, I was just bizarrely, manically happy for 24 hours. Guess what, Toto ...
I'm in the throes of this right now. My "community," such as it is, lives around Portland. My heart lies here. Since I've never been able to get my community to move, I'm resigned to selling and returning. Living is a bit more affordable there, I guess. ($34,000! And I thought $5000 was highway robbery!)
Every time I think about the situation i'm of two minds--happy excitement to spend more time with friends and family, and a desolate feeling of forever losing my spot in this scenic paradise. I'm getting older (rapidly), so traveling back and forth will soon be problematic. I look at houses on line, and rarely find anything I want to buy. So I feel for your friend forced to leave a city he loves. Maybe he can return there some day.
(Just as I want my ashes strewn in St. Edward State Park, on the shore of Lake Washington, so I can have a view for eternity...>8) )
catherine
4-12-15, 12:52pm
(Just as I want my ashes strewn in St. Edward State Park, on the shore of Lake Washington, so I can have a view for eternity...>8) )
I think I've done market research there: Carillon Point, Kirkland. Is that near you? It's a beautiful spot for sure.
Fairly close. I was thinking if I visited back and forth I would stay at Carillon Point. I looked at a condo a few blocks away, on the water. Should have bought it. I have regrets.
Yeah But: If you lived in Pittsburg, Ks, you would be a few hours drive from the "flint hills" of Ks. It is a sparsely-populated area; a contemporary Zurra author of note wrote a whole best-seller about the history of Chase County, KS., in the Flint Hills. There is a historic site, not an officially-designated and maintained monument; but a place on private property that is accessible with permission. It is the place where the airliner carrying legendary Notre Dame football coach Knute Rockne, and a few other business leaders and dignitaries, crashed in 1931. Isn't that interesting? The last living witness to the crash, who happened upon the scene in it's immediate aftermath, died several years ago. He was about 15 years old, at the time. His obit was online. He, and his family maintained the access to the crash site, and accommodated sightseers for all this time. Also, you can see "Big Brutus" in Cherokee County, Ks, near Pittsburg. It was the largest strip-mining coal excavating machine in the world at one time. They stopped using it in the 1970's, but it is tourist attraction, now. Darn thing is HUGE. Also, Wichita serial-killer "BTK" Dennis Rader was born in Pittsburg. Oh, yeah. Pretty weird, huh?
Also, you could visit Arkansas City, KS., south of Wichita near the Ok. state line. They did have a drag strip there; haven't heard if it has reopened, this year. But anyway--Ark City is the onetime home of the parents of "British-born Actress" (the late)Elizabeth Taylor. I guess her father was born in Springfield, Il., but moved to Ark city as a youth, where Taylor's future mom also lived. The media spinners referred to Taylor as "British-Born" to make her sound more sophisticated and cosmopolitan, ya spose? I guess she actually was born in England; her parents were there for quite awhile before WWII. Then, they moved back to the USA, and she found her way to Hollywood. Isn't that interesting?
Carillon point, Kirkland, Wa. I took a tour on google maps, street scene. It looks very Posh, all I can say. I noticed that they seem to have a thing about trimming the the(Asian) shrubbery in geometric shapes. For all the preoccupation with Greenspace, it is an exceedingly unnatural environment. If I moved there, I would have to find a place to camp, where tenting is allowed. But, it would still prolly cost $20 a night for a space, limit 5 nights. So, I'd prolly have to sleep behind one of the meticulously-maintained bushes, at at office building, and use their restroom and move every 4-5 days. Stay in the Lirrarrry during the daytime, and read and websurf. It's really not for me.
$34,000/year in property taxes? That'd be about what you'd pay in my county in Washington on a home worth about $6 million dollars. What kind of house does this guy have?
$34,000/year in property taxes? That'd be about what you'd pay in my county in Washington on a home worth about $6 million dollars. What kind of house does this guy have?
Well, this is really creepy of me, but without even knowing this guy's last name or street address I was able to dig up his tax records. Sales price was 1.2M. (I'm sure that this is not extraordinarily high for NJ). Latest tax assessment was 1,019,500. And sure enough, his taxes last year were $37k. He's a VP in his organization, and I think his wife has a professional job also.
I tried to Google Map it, but they didn't have a street view available. I wouldn't have posted it even if I found it, though. That would have been WAY too creepy.
Well, this is really creepy of me, but without even knowing this guy's last name or street address I was able to dig up his tax records. Sales price was 1.2M. Latest tax assessment was 1,019,500. And sure enough, his taxes last year were $37k.
So one of his problems is that he lives in an area with insanely high property taxes!
So one of his problems is that he lives in an area with insanely high property taxes!
For sure. That is insanely high, even for NJ.
he lives in an area with insanely high property taxes
Well it keeps out the riff-raff.
Carillon point, Kirkland, Wa. I took a tour on google maps, street scene. It looks very Posh, all I can say. I noticed that they seem to have a thing about trimming the the(Asian) shrubbery in geometric shapes. For all the preoccupation with Greenspace, it is an exceedingly unnatural environment. If I moved there, I would have to find a place to camp, where tenting is allowed. But, it would still prolly cost $20 a night for a space, limit 5 nights. So, I'd prolly have to sleep behind one of the meticulously-maintained bushes, at at office building, and use their restroom and move every 4-5 days. Stay in the Lirrarrry during the daytime, and read and websurf. It's really not for me.
I'm a little north of there, along the forested shoreline--and our lirrarry system is most excellent. There are parks all over the place, but I doubt anyone camps in them--legally or not.
Teacher Terry
4-13-15, 7:28pm
Sometimes people can't find jobs in their field so they need to move. That happened to me after I finished grad school. So it was either move or never work in my field after spending 10 years & lots of $ to get there.
One of the first things I did when I arrived to visit Zurra was check out the local lirrrarry. It was a classic old Carnegie grant building downtown, and the front entrance, on the street, was always closed, but the indoor stairwell was still in use. The rear of the building faced the parkin' lot, and you went in through the basement entrance from the lot, then took either the back stairway or elevator to the upper floors. That has all changed, since, because they bought a nearly-new building on the south side, that had been a Payless Cashways, and remodeled it into the new "Main" lirrrarry. This took pressure for space off the downtown lirrarry, so they restored it to its' original configuration, with the entrance on the street functional, again. There are two other branches, one of which is only a mile away from me. They will get a copy of anything across town, if they don't have it. Pretty good, huh? Logistics is everything for littlebittymee; as a reformed "car jock", I don't like to drive needlessly. In the old building downtown, there is a fireplace, and on the mantle is a plaque, dedicated to a lady lirrrarran who was on the staff from 1910-1950. 40 years! Quite a while to be at one place, but she musta liked it.
Old libraries are a veritable treasure--like the beautiful downtown Portland building. On the other hand, our new branches resemble nothing more than warehouses or maybe minimum security prisons...But at least we have lots of them.
Gardenarian
4-14-15, 7:58pm
$34,000 on a million dollar house? I thought almost all places had taxes in the 1-1.5% range. No?
I have never had a "home town" but I lived in my last place for 23 years. I didn't move for money, but because my values had shifted and the town and environs had changed - creating a greater and greater chasm between my ideal and my reality. I had wanted to stay in the town until my dd was off on her own, as I hated moving when I was young, but she was happy to try somewhere new. I feel more at home in Ashland than I have anywhere else. Every day I wake up happy just to be here!
I wish I had real roots somewhere; maybe I'll grow them here. There are people I care about all over the country, but I've never had that sense of place that I feel here.
DH has a strong hometown feeling, but doesn't feel called to live in the city where he grew up (in Colorado.) His family has a summer place outside of town, and he and dd visit every summer (I go about every third year.) He still feels very connected, but is happy to be able to live elsewhere most of the year.
DH and I have been talking about burial plans, and it's important to him to end up in his his family plot. What's more important to me is to have a green burial, to go back to the Earth - I don't much care where. I'll have a plaque by dh's, and one also in MY family's plot.
Gardenarian
4-14-15, 8:02pm
I just looked up the tax rates - here are the highest and lowest by county:
Highest Property Taxes as a Percent of Home Value
Allegany County, NY (3.76%)
Milwaukee County, WI (3.68%)
Kendall County, IL (3.57%)
Sullivan County, NY (3.56%)
Orleans County, NY (3.49%)
Lowest Property Taxes as a Percent of Home Value
Caroline County, VA (0.17%)
Catahoula County, LA and Randolph, AR (0.2%)
Iberville County, LA and Cumberland County, TN (0.21%)
Butler County, PA and Maui County, HI (0.22%)
Elmore County, AL and De Soto County, LA (0.23%)
iris lilies
4-15-15, 11:29am
I just looked up the tax rates - here are the highest and lowest by county:
Highest Property Taxes as a Percent of Home Value
Allegany County, NY (3.76%)
Milwaukee County, WI (3.68%)
Kendall County, IL (3.57%)
Sullivan County, NY (3.56%)
Orleans County, NY (3.49%)
Lowest Property Taxes as a Percent of Home Value
Caroline County, VA (0.17%)
Catahoula County, LA and Randolph, AR (0.2%)
Iberville County, LA and Cumberland County, TN (0.21%)
Butler County, PA and Maui County, HI (0.22%)
Elmore County, AL and De Soto County, LA (0.23%)
I'm surprised that New Jersey isn't in that list.
catherine
4-15-15, 12:19pm
I'm surprised that New Jersey isn't in that list.
I am, too.
So I looked around for real estate in Allegany County, and found a home with a similar market value to mine (350k), and interestingly, the taxes match mine: $8300. But that's just n of 1.
http://www.century21.com/property/8710-county-road-49-rushford-ny-14717-REN017478870
BTW, that house is definitely nicer than mine, especially given it's lakefront. Geez, I'm tempted to make an offer!
I wish state and local taxes were not deductible. The rest of us shouldn't have to support such nonsense.
ApatheticNoMore
4-15-15, 2:06pm
Since I've never itemized in my life I agree. In fact they could get rid of all itemizations and just leave everyone the standard deduction. Why am I paying more than those who itemize anyway? The only itemization I have any sympathy with is medical care - being how costly and out of our control it is to get sick, heaven forbid.
Why am I paying more than those who itemize anyway?
Because people who keep careful records, think strategically, do the math and learn the rules should get some of the money left on the table by those who don’t. Personally, I kind of enjoy tax planning. If the society I live in wants to impose a complicated system of rules on me, I may at least enjoy the sport of keeping as much of what I earn as I can.
ApatheticNoMore
4-15-15, 4:58pm
I don't think it's easy to top the standard deduction without a mortgage or major healthcare expenses. I mean you can try to add up the dental visits ($200 dollars a year maybe) and the donations of old stuff to the goodwill but that's not going to get you 6k plus. Maybe add in state taxes or health insurance (but tax adjustments are already made for health insurance right off the paycheck). Try to count things as work expenses but probably have to be pretty careful there to avoid an audit. Whether one has significant mortgage interest to deduct probably has much more to do with likelihood of itemizing than keeping records or not (in fact of course those who know they can significantly beat the standard deduction are probably those likely to keep records).
It's favoritism of a certain lifestyle really, that's all the itemized deductions really are, nothing more. And of course most people who aren't tax accountants, doing all their tax planning for themselves is very bad advice (and I've done my own taxes many many times), but there are times it's best to consult a professional. Thinking one doesn't need professional advice ever is usually wrong - one is often only as smart as the networks they are part of (including paid advice on things like taxes).
Old libraries are a veritable treasure--like the beautiful downtown Portland building. On the other hand, our new branches resemble nothing more than warehouses or maybe minimum security prisons...But at least we have lots of them.Yes, this is true. The 3 buildings(Downtown, and the two branches) were specifically built for the purpose, and built to last. The northside building was built in 1970. In the early 90's, "they" spent something like $500,000 to remodel it. It was not open on Sundays, did not have a lot of space. But, it was functional. In 2002, a voter-approved measure funded acquiring a vacant building--a former grocery store built in oh, 1980--to be COMPLETELY remodeled into the new "Center O' Book Learnin'" with tons of extra space. The Architects/Decorators/Artiste's went hog wild on superfluous "stuff" on the outside. Anyway, it is now open 7 days, and has considerably more traffic, than the old place., which "they" sold for something like $650,000, for use as a "free" clinic that no one meets the guidelines to qualify for. The clinic later moved, to another more extravagant, nice new facility, that no one qualifies for. You know how Doctors are... But,"They" kept the other branch, but also acquired a vacant building-materials yard, tore down most of the outside storage, and COMPLETELY redid it. You would not recognize it, from before. Funny thing is, further up the road was a vacant grocery store--a really suitable, nice-looking masonry and steel building that I think was better-suited for the purpose, but I wasn't making the decision. "They" were. Those lirrrarry board ladies seem to like a REAL challenge---hiring all the people to see to it that a Lumberyard with nearly-new buildings can be COMPLETELY remodeled, to suit an entirely different purpose. Like making a saddle fit on a sow.
rodeosweetheart
4-15-15, 6:25pm
Trust me, no one here wants to live in Allegany County, New York. I worked there and we lived about a mile and a half from the county border. It used to be (and may still be) the poorest county in the state of New York. There are no amenities or any sort. It is quite beautiful, but extremely rural--I worked with my parish priest when we were trying to redistrict parishes for the diocese, and it was difficult explaining to the bishop that the new map would not work; that in the winter, you simply could not travel the roads to where he was combining the parishes; the roads are impassable. I was also told by a parishioner that she did not want "foreigners" in her pew, by which she meant someone from a different parish in the county. Like the next town over.
It has a lot to offer if you are a farmer and the people are quite nice, although it takes approximately 10 years before they will speak to you. But they are really nice when they do.
My son went to hs his senior year in Allegany County and it was a blast for him--320 students grades K-12. That was a wonderful experience.
But seriously, do not buy a house in Allegany County without knowing what you are getting into.
The next town over built a brand new library. I worked there. It looked like a warehouse, leaked like a sieve, and quickly outgrew the space as soon as it was built. It's a regional library, which would seem to call for more room, but we had the kiddies, the students, and poor long-suffering adult patrons all jammed together in a cramped, poorly (if at all) soundproofed space. Other regional libraries hereabouts were built with two stories; I guess we were just the poor relative.
Sounds just like where my husband grew up in NY. Has not changed in 100 years. Only offices with much business are the unemployment and the Social Security offices. Walmart, non super store, was the height of shopping.
My theory is this: Carnegie was shrewd; so that he prolly did not just turn a lirrrarry board---well-intentioned people with time on their hands---turn them loose with big bucks, to do as they saw fit. He prolly had a team of architects, builders, planners in-house at his Foundation, to build a Library the right way, very suited for the purpose, and built to last. In the littlebittytown waaaay up North, out in the middle o' nowhere, they have a Carnegie Building. When, 30 years ago, it was deemed inadequate to meet the needs of the community(which has not grown since 1950), there was talk of tearing 'er down, and starting over. Yeah--they'd build a quickie steel truss building, cap 'er with painted tin, and call 'er good. Just like they did with the Cath'lic school. But, fortunately--and unbelieveably, that went nowhere. They expanded the original structure, and matched it up pretty well.
I hope that holds true for all the Carnegie libraries.
I don't think it's easy to top the standard deduction without a mortgage or major healthcare expenses. I mean you can try to add up the dental visits ($200 dollars a year maybe) and the donations of old stuff to the goodwill but that's not going to get you 6k plus. Maybe add in state taxes or health insurance (but tax adjustments are already made for health insurance right off the paycheck). Try to count things as work expenses but probably have to be pretty careful there to avoid an audit. Whether one has significant mortgage interest to deduct probably has much more to do with likelihood of itemizing than keeping records or not (in fact of course those who know they can significantly beat the standard deduction are probably those likely to keep records).
It's favoritism of a certain lifestyle really, that's all the itemized deductions really are, nothing more. And of course most people who aren't tax accountants, doing all their tax planning for themselves is very bad advice (and I've done my own taxes many many times), but there are times it's best to consult a professional. Thinking one doesn't need professional advice ever is usually wrong - one is often only as smart as the networks they are part of (including paid advice on things like taxes).
I think basic tax planning is fairly simple for most people most of the time. Especially itemizing deductions, which isn’t all that complicated. In my case local property taxes and state income taxes pretty much get me to the standard deduction and everything after that is gravy. And if you devote a minimal amount of time during the year to take advantage of tax loss harvesting, Section 125, and various income sheltering opportunities, you really don’t need much by way of expert help.
As to whether we’d be better served by a flat tax or VAT, or whether the IRS should be involved in the health care business: there are certainly policy arguments to be made for or against. My preference would be to limit the tax regime to revenue raising and leave the social engineering and wealth redistribution aspects to other schemes. But I have to play the hand I’m dealt, and devoting a few hours now and then to minimizing my tax liability deems well worth it to me.
I wouldn't disagree that many deductions favor a certain life style (saving, raising a family, charitable giving, managing assets responsibly, etc.). But compared to other government policies aimed at encouraging general fecklessness, they don't seem that awful to me.
... But compared to other government policies aimed at encouraging general fecklessness... that tickled my funny bone, thanks. Ah, General Fecklessness, do sit down and have some tea.
Ultralight
7-9-15, 12:41pm
catherine:
There is so, so much going on with this guy. I really cannot understand folks like him. I think about the people of Haiti. That $34k he pays in property taxes could feed so, so many living in abject poverty. I mean, I could live comfortably on $34k a year -- and I did back in 2011!
Wow. Just wow.
But to answer the question in your post... A sense of place ("roots") is something I struggle with. As I noted in another post, I am 36 years old and I have moved 27 times -- various houses, apartments, rooms, dorms, etc. 24 or 25 of these moves happened after I turned 18 and I was never in the military. My parents are both compulsive hoarders so I never felt at home in their house. My hometown was suffocating in its smallness and disconcerting in its anti-intellectualism.
I have had a really, really hard time ever feeling at home anywhere. During my marriage (which ended a couple years ago in divorce) I did have one, six month period where my partner, my two dogs, and I lived in a great apartment in a town where we had great friends. Then we moved to a nearby bigger city (from Dayton, OH to Columbus, OH) so my partner could find a job (I was able to transfer). 7 days later she packed her bags and left. It is quite possible this was calculated because she had a friend here in Columbus that told her to move in with her. While the divorce was as friendly and cheap as they get, I still moved for someone else's work (or so I thought).
I am still trying to figure out how to get to a point in my life -- or a place in my life -- where I can feel at home and invested in a community.
catherine:
There is so, so much going on with this guy. I really cannot understand folks like him. I think about the people of Haiti. That $34k he pays in property taxes could feed so, so many living in abject poverty. I mean, I could live comfortably on $34k a year -- and I did back in 2011!
Wow. Just wow.
But to answer the question in your post... A sense of place ("roots") is something I struggle with. As I noted in another post, I am 36 years old and I have moved 27 times -- various houses, apartments, rooms, dorms, etc. 24 or 25 of these moves happened after I turned 18 and I was never in the military. My parents are both compulsive hoarders so I never felt at home in their house. My hometown was suffocating in its smallness and disconcerting in its anti-intellectualism.
I have had a really, really hard time ever feeling at home anywhere. During my marriage (which ended a couple years ago in divorce) I did have one, six month period where my partner, my two dogs, and I lived in a great apartment in a town where we had great friends. Then we moved to a nearby bigger city (from Dayton, OH to Columbus, OH) so my partner could find a job (I was able to transfer). 7 days later she packed her bags and left. It is quite possible this was calculated because she had a friend here in Columbus that told her to move in with her. While the divorce was as friendly and cheap as they get, I still moved for someone else's work (or so I thought).
I am still trying to figure out how to get to a point in my life -- or a place in my life -- where I can feel at home and invested in a community.
Do you actually want to feel at home or do you just want it because other people seem to have that? Or are you tying a sense of home to a residence or community rather than a sense of self? Please don't misinterpret my questions - I'm not trying to be critical or judge your feelings. I'm just curious as I've been thinking about the same stuff.
I have recently realized that I just don't have a strong attachment to places or residences. I don't really crave "being settled" the way some people do. My husband and I didn't see eye to eye on this. But because I'm not overly attached to specific places I settle into "home" really quickly. Whether it's a new house, like my last move, a hotel room, my sister's house, a new workspace; I treat them all instantly like my home.
I am a bit more attached to my stuff - my computer files especially, and some other personal property. As long as I have myself and those basic essentials like my phone and laptop I'm quite content and feel at home anywhere.
For community I'm strongly attached to Winnipeg now because I know so many people here. Growing up I had very few friends, so having this community is a new and wondrous thing to me.
Kestra:
Leave it to you to ask such a hard-hitting question. lol!
My sense of self is pretty good by American standards. haha. I watch about a half hour of TV a month so I don't think the media erodes my sense of self. I don't get too much flack from my peers about being an minimalist, they just DO NOT share this way of life at all. I know this: I don't settle in quickly anywhere. I feel acutely unsettled for a couple or three months after I move into a place. I don't like motel rooms at all. I prefer to stay in my tent in a campground.
So I am not sure about this and the questions you are asking. Though I am glad you are asking them because they are making think about these important issues in more sophisticated ways.
I am not attached to my stuff that much though. I am actually rattling my brain at this very moment to think of a belonging -- a possession -- that I feel strongly about owning. I don't have an affinity for my computer or my house phone (I don't own a cell). My fishing pole could be cheaply replaced. I don't like driving, so my car is just another tool I use -- no fondness for it. I like my canoe, but it is a space hog and I often think of selling it. Yeah, I just can't think of any of my stuff I am especially attached to. I am rarely, if ever, sentimental.
When I am out fishing I will sometimes be overcome (in a good way!) with a sense of belonging. I will say that...
Jake, follow up question:
At the risk of sounding like I'm stereotyping, are you aboriginal at all? A lot of what you've said comes across as more likely to be sentiments that would be expressed by First Nations people around here. The sense of belonging when fishing, the foraging, the minimalism, the discontent with average society, lack of attachment to possessions. You sound like someone who might say that they "only feel at home on the land". (Not that this feeling couldn't be expressed by someone of any race, it just seems more common in particular races. Personally I feel a strong draw towards certain aspects of First Nations culture, but feel like an outsider due to my genetic Caucasianess.)
Do you need to look for a job in a more wilderness area?
Kestra:
I have to laugh a little both because I am very, very white but also because I once overheard my sister telling her husband "Jake is like... I dunno...Native American on this inside. It is weird." haha
I have thought of trying to find a job out in Montana, for instance. But I am just not in a financial place to move again. But I am planning on it. The Pacific Northwest is also tempting. There are rivers and lakes out there calling my name. :)
Do you have any suggestions on feeling at home anywhere you go? That has to be so liberating.
Kestra:
Do you have any suggestions on feeling at home anywhere you go? That has to be so liberating.
I think it comes from a lifetime of not feeling I fit in anywhere at all, never feeling at home anywhere. (If you're interested I'll tell you more in email as it's getting off-topic and personal for the forums, but it's along the lines of your white outside/Native inside.) At a certain point you give up caring or trying, and then you can just be. My home is only within my own head, and I like to take that everywhere. ;)
Kestra:
Yes, email me about it. It is like you are speaking to my soul here, if I had one. ;)
I was on the road doing research this past week, and I was chatting with my client's colleague. He had just moved about a year ago from Pittsburgh to a rural NJ town pretty near his corporate office. I asked him how he liked NJ and he said, "I don't." He started telling me about how he LOVES Pittsburgh and how hard it was to leave.
Then he told me that he hates how expensive NJ is, which is no new news, BUT he told me that he pays $34,000/year in PROPERTY TAXES!!! I kept asking him to repeat that. Then I started getting a fuller picture--he said he and his wife like "nice things" and they're' going to try to downsize, but the problem with smaller houses is they don't have the quality of big houses. He wants a small house with a 4-car garage. He has 4 cars. I kept thinking this guy has REALLY drunk the Kool-Aid. I suggested a couple of towns for him that are beautiful and very tony with less tax burden, but he kept going back to how underrated Pittsburgh is.
I believe some people have a strong sense of place and they find meaning in being rooted: like Scarlett was to Tara. Others (like our dear Spartana) are more nomadic. I get that. And I also get that sometimes you have to move to find work, and may people move multiple times to be able to achieve their financial goals.
But the subtext in this guy's story was that he would rather give up a place he loved in order to get these "nice things": like a huge house that carries a $34k property tax burden and so much space for cars that he could start a dealership in his driveway. What's wrong with this picture?
Have you ever had to sacrifice your "roots" to find work? Have you ever sacrificed money in order to be able to stay put?
Not wanting to sound harsh but, I think what's wrong with this picture is this guy isn't happy with what he has. And he won't be happy no matter what he has. I know the type. No matter how good he has it or how 'much' he has his 'ideal', he will never be happy.
He wants a 3 car garage...ok, he has a 3 car garage, and the home to fit it, as bae pointed out... yet he isn't happy? he doesn't feel 'at home'? Really? Cause you know, you make home where you want to make home, as in, this is where my family/job/life is. If you wanted to stay withing 20 miles of where you were born/grew up then you make the life that area offers and accept it. If you can't find joy (a three car garage with house to match) in that area, it won't magically appear just because you want it to. If the place you consider your paradise doesn't hold the things you require FOR paradise, it ain't gonna happen no matter how much you tap your heels together and wish really really hard. This guy needs to count his blessings and pay his taxes and enjoy what he has, cause it is a lot more than a lot of folks have. Or move, if he's unhappy, cause life is too short to live a false life.
I just spent the weekend sorting through my mother's things as she passed this past week, and it really makes you put life, and trivial things in perspective. My mom (and dad, who passed last fall) found her bliss, fortunately, and she lived it for 40 years more or less. And i am grateful for that.
Life is so tenuous. So Profoundly on the precipice of acceptance or not. If you don't love your life (Rob) then do whatever you need to find that place of peace and acceptance. And if you do love it (bae, I.L., many others) embrace it, apologetically, as your bliss. Rich or poor, find happiness in what you have now, and everything else is a bonus. Trust me, it will all come down to "do you want this? who wants that? Put it in the donate pile." And that goes for everyone.
Everyone.
....I just spent the weekend sorting through my mother's things as she passed this past week, and it really makes you put life, and trivial things in perspective. My mom (and dad, who passed last fall) found her bliss, fortunately, and she lived it for 40 years more or less. And i am grateful for that.
Life is so tenuous. So Profoundly on the precipice of acceptance or not. If you don't love your life (Rob) then do whatever you need to find that place of peace and acceptance. And if you do love it (bae, I.L., many others) embrace it, apologetically, as your bliss. Rich or poor, find happiness in what you have now, and everything else is a bonus. Trust me, it will all come down to "do you want this? who wants that? Put it in the donate pile." And that goes for everyone.
Everyone.
peggy - That's sad news. It's tough to lose your second parent, it certainly is a milestone. Sounds like she had happiness in life and that is no small thing.
rosarugosa
7-12-15, 7:15pm
Sorry about your Mom, Peggy. Glad she had a good life.
peggy, so sorry to hear about your mom, but it sounds like she had a very fulfilling life which is wonderful.
Peggy, I'm so sorry to hear about your mom's passing....
freshstart
7-13-15, 6:20pm
Life is so tenuous. So Profoundly on the precipice of acceptance or not. If you don't love your life (Rob) then do whatever you need to find that place of peace and acceptance. And if you do love it (bae, I.L., many others) embrace it, apologetically, as your bliss. Rich or poor, find happiness in what you have now, and everything else is a bonus. Trust me, it will all come down to "do you want this? who wants that? Put it in the donate pile." And that goes for everyone.
Everyone.
Exactly this, nailed it. I'm sorry about your mom.
Thank you all. It wasn't unexpected but hard all the same. She did find her bliss and loved her life, ironically in what we all here are seeking...enjoyment of simplicity and the pleasure of 'enough'.
Sorry, I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread. This is an interesting discussion.
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