View Full Version : Baltimorei
flowerseverywhere
4-28-15, 6:49am
My heart breaks for the citizens of Baltimore who only wanted to go to work this morning whose businesses are burnt down.
For the seniors who were looking forward to moving into a new affordable housing complex whose 60 units were burnt down.
Cellphones everywhere recording as people were taunting the police with words and physical objects.
To all the kids who will miss a day of school to keep them safe
to everyone who suffered injury last night
I especially feel sorrow for the Grey family.
sadness heaped upon sadness. A terrible situation made worse. Good people work so hard to make their community a better place to live and so much effort and hard work destroyed in one night.
gimmethesimplelife
4-28-15, 7:06am
I so agree with you. I've only been to Baltimore once, years and years ago when my Mother left my father and took me to Mexico for a few months, and on the way to Mexico we stopped in Baltimore and I remember her saying it was even more depressing than the part of Boston my father's late parents had lived in. That said, I know from living in a lower income neighborhood myself that there are some great people in such places - not all are the type the media would have you believe. I have been burnt out a bit on all the police issues which I am sure everyone here has gathered by now are definitely on my radar and of importance to me. I will look into the deceased black man who died while in police custody and try to find out more of the background before I post much more as right now I don't know enough to post on this.
I find this so depressing as there are times I've thought about living in Pittsburgh - maybe not quite the racially explosive potential that Baltimore has, but some of the similar old city trying to find its bearings in a completely different economy than in its heyday issues. That part of the country in general - the Northeast - seems to have some brutal income inequality going on - I even realized this when I was 10 living in Southern New Hampshire though I didn't throw the words income inequality around. I just knew that money wasn't spread around fairly.....but I digress. I can see such issues happening in other Northeastern cities (Hartford, Philly, New York, DC come to mind) and I'm hoping this can be nipped in the bud in Baltimore without the over the top issues from the Ferguson fiasco last year. Time will tell.
Here's a wish that Baltimore stops burning pronto and that nothing happens to stir the pot - that things simmer down and cooler heads come up with a way to restore peace. Rob
Great photo summary here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3057819/Baltimore-police-Freddie-Gray-protestors-clash-violently-funeral.html
Tough day to be a fireman.
Doesn't anyone else feel like we're just tolerating this crap? I feel like too many hands are tied to rid these thugs of society......that we're too concerned about THEIR rights. That's just B.S. and will lead to the downfall of this society. And for the most part, I don't think you can constantly make excuses that certain people just can't escape poverty, haven't been given enough chances, etc., etc., etc.etc.. I'm really pissed off.
Tough day to be a fireman.
The rioters are cutting firehoses while they are being used.
I'd kill someone who did that.
Seems like you'd be justified in shooting people who were doing that, or looting a store, or trashing police cars, or throwing rocks and bottles at the police (enough to break their shields). But no.......the police would get in trouble. What can we do???
ApatheticNoMore
4-28-15, 12:27pm
And for the most part, I don't think you can constantly make excuses that certain people just can't escape poverty, haven't been given enough chances, etc., etc., etc.etc..
I think certain individuals are just dangerous, but that yes whole parts of society (poor ghettos etc.) HAVE NOT been given enough chances to escape poverty, obviously.
I think certain individuals are just dangerous, but that yes whole parts of society (poor ghettos etc.) HAVE NOT been given enough chances to escape poverty, obviously.
There are different types of poverty, which are you referring to? It seems to me that what is most obvious in these events is the poverty of culture/morals/responsibility. How do you escape that without taking it upon yourself to do so?
During the 68 Democratic convention chaos in Chicago, Old Man Daley said looters would be shot on sight, I believe. Too bad that's not an option now.
ApatheticNoMore
4-28-15, 1:07pm
There are different types of poverty, which are you referring to? It seems to me that what is most obvious in these events is the poverty of culture/morals/responsibility.
even if that's true, a couple generations of real attempts to provide economic opportunities and it probably wouldn't be anymore.
During the 68 Democratic convention chaos in Chicago, Old Man Daley said looters would be shot on sight, I believe. Too bad that's not an option now.
Stealing should now be a capital crime?
Stealing should now be a capital crime?
You might want to read what the laws of your state say about riots...
You might want to read what the laws of your state say about riots...
Maybe I'm missing it but it doesn't appear that inciting a riot, or failure to disburse, is a capital crime in California.
Maybe I'm missing it but it doesn't appear that inciting a riot, or failure to disburse, is a capital crime in California.
"A capital crime" refers to punishment. So you are probably looking in the wrong place.
Look in the laws concerning use-of-force. The RCWs in Washington are pretty clear that lethal force can be used to deal with riots and arson.
California's is Section 197 of the CA Penal Code, and thereabouts.
The misconception that use of force in defensive situations equals capital punishment is far too common.
Obviously based on all the cases where cops use lethal force and don't get punished it's pretty much a given that lethal force can be used against the population almost any time cops feel like it. Maybe before the day is out tradd will get her wish and the cops in Baltimore will kill a few more people and then we can all cheer and be happy. The alternative, of cops learning how to defuse situations and avoid killing people in the first place so as to not cause people to protest seems less and less likely every time I read the news.
Obviously based on all the cases where cops use lethal force and don't get punished it's pretty much a given that lethal force can be used against the population almost any time cops feel like it.
No. That's not how it works, really.
But fan the flames, by all means.
Obviously based on all the cases where cops use lethal force and don't get punished it's pretty much a given that lethal force can be used against the population almost any time cops feel like it. Maybe before the day is out tradd will get her wish and the cops in Baltimore will kill a few more people and then we can all cheer and be happy. The alternative, of cops learning how to defuse situations and avoid killing people in the first place so as to not cause people to protest seems less and less likely every time I read the news.There are actually very clear, and simple, rules regarding the use of lethal force. It may be used in defense of yourself or another, not "any time cops feel like it". Should police officers be punished for defending themselves or others?
Alan.....you've mentioned people needing to be responsible before, and I totally agree. But that's never going to happen. What then?
And what concerns me about these situations is that the public is becoming more and more hostile, and capable of really doing damage to the police/innocent bystanders/local businesses.
And that teaching cops how to defuse situations, etc., does get further and further from a possibility, when nothing they do matters to these criminals. Some people are very dangerous and enjoy venting their various angers (perhaps not even the anger that peaceful protesters might feel) and they wait for times like this to destroy things. I'm sure they probably didn't know who worked in that CVS store, or whose cars they destroyed (except for police cars........and maybe it belonged to a black cop)..........So waiting for rational behavior to happen is living in a fairytale. I want the law to come down much harder on these people......but how do we do that? I'm sure there will be some law suits against some of the police in this situation.......and it will be ridiculous. Police aren't automatons. How would you feel if you were being pelted with rocks and bottles and seeing people running out of someone's store with stolen loot in their arms and a big smile on their face?
This is getting to be a pretty crazy place. And if we don't start coming down hard on some of these thugs, things are going to get uglier and uglier......
What then?
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Alan.....you've mentioned people needing to be responsible before, and I totally agree. But that's never going to happen. What then?
I don't have an answer to that. You can't force people to take responsibility for their actions, and it doesn't help matters for society to portray every anti-social actor as a victim. In the absence of people acting responsibly, society's only protection is to enforce consequences.
On TV last night I watched live video of thugs throwing bricks, rocks and bottles at police officers who remarkably did not respond with lethal force. A brick or bottle to the head meets all the requirements for a lethal force response although in this situation hundreds of violent offenders were allowed to continue. What are we teaching them by allowing them to escape the consequences of their actions? The way we tip-toe around behaviors such as these tells me that we'll never incentivize offenders to stop.
In the absence of people acting responsibly, society's only protection is to enforce consequences.
This has all happened before...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Leviathan_by_Thomas_Hobbes.jpg
I totally agree Alan. But don't you agree that our various laws and "equal rights for all" and being "fair" to all gets in the way of things, and that leads to people thinking they can get away with destructive behavior? The police are walking on eggshells and the bad guys get to keep the upper hand.
But if the cops had managed to diffuse the situation with freddie grey, how many bricks would have been thrown yesterday. It's really in everyone's including the cops, best interest to figure out a better way to do it.
gimmethesimplelife
4-28-15, 6:00pm
Obviously based on all the cases where cops use lethal force and don't get punished it's pretty much a given that lethal force can be used against the population almost any time cops feel like it. Maybe before the day is out tradd will get her wish and the cops in Baltimore will kill a few more people and then we can all cheer and be happy. The alternative, of cops learning how to defuse situations and avoid killing people in the first place so as to not cause people to protest seems less and less likely every time I read the news.+1 Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-28-15, 6:01pm
But if the cops had managed to diffuse the situation with freddie grey, how many bricks would have been thrown yesterday. It's really in everyone's including the cops, best interest to figure out a better way to do it.+1 Rob
+1 Rob
Welcome to Rob's World:
http://i.embed.ly/1/display/resize?key=1e6a1a1efdb011df84894040444cdc60&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FCDoiSgNWA AAhoFy.jpg
Communications from an acquaintance of mine in the area:
-------------
At the risk of sounding like Nero, fiddling while Rome burns, I intend to make today a productive day of practicing and preparing for future Musical events.
As much of a lunatic asylum as my childhood was, I am eternally grateful to my parents and the Public School system of South Windsor , Connecticut, for giving me Music, at an age when I could just as well have formed patterns leading to my becoming a serial killer, drug dealer, or--worst case sociopathic horror-- a politician.
I thought about this, yesterday afternoon, as I was being driven home, past countless boarded up, rat-infested row-houses, in East Baltimore, that have been that way for years while the greed-enslaved creatures who created that situation ,( thereby driving thousands of poor families into lower-rent , roach-infested West Baltimore) eat the peanuts out of each other's shit congratulating themselves on their obscenely racist "accomplishment.
Last night I received a 'phone call from my old friend and former Music History professor, XXX XXX, who wanted to know
1. If I was all right, and
2. What the **** is going on in Baltimore?
When I reiterated my opinion that it was 500 years of racist bullshit having come home to roost, he replied, " Well, that is correct, BUT the racist bullshit could have been overcome had it not been for the past 150 years of a horrendous educational system calculated to keep 'them' intellectually enslaved." Thinking about that statement, and knowing that I live in a country whose politicians will spend trillions of dollars to do, deliberately, halfway around the world, what misguided people are doing out of frustration and anger in the streets of Baltimore, while simultaneously cutting spending on the Arts in Education, overwhelms me with sadness and anger.
I shall teach, practice and perform--whatever I can do-to make my own life for the benefit of all sentient creatures.
-------------------------
All this talk about lack of opportunity, education, all that makes me think of this saying: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You are acting like all we need to do is take ghetto people, and pay their way to the state university, and bingo--prollem solved! No more poverty! Wow. I hate to say it, but that is very, very naive. Just plain wrong. There are some people that are just screwed up, and that is largely the reason they are in the ghetto. They don't possess the natural personal characteristics or the intellectual capacity to benefit from higher education Or employment opportunities in western society. They live off the fat of the land. It follows that the underlying motive behind this unrest is fear that "social programs" will be cut back; they figure that this media-fed concern of trouble spreading further out--of random attacks on middle-class people, will bring politicians to the table with more handouts, more entitlements, to placate Those People. Meanwhile, their numbers multiply, and we build more prisons, more subsidized housing, etc., to contain them. All there is to it. Watch and see. Also, my advice is, stop taking the blame for these misfits and malcontents. See? Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
I totally agree Alan. But don't you agree that our various laws and "equal rights for all" and being "fair" to all gets in the way of things, and that leads to people thinking they can get away with destructive behavior?No, I believe that equal rights and fairness for all is exactly what we need. By that I mean that people shouldn't be judged by anything other than the content of their characters. Our society's penchant for separating people into groups of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc., and holding different standards for each based upon our own biases and feelings of guilt, assigning victim status to some and privilege to others, creates groups who act exactly as we continue to see some groups act. If society allowed us all to be treated equally, with the same right to succeed and fail, to achieve fortune and misfortune, without being burdened by do-gooders holding us to lower standards, we'd all be better off.
gimmethesimplelife
4-28-15, 10:08pm
Welcome to Rob's World:
http://i.embed.ly/1/display/resize?key=1e6a1a1efdb011df84894040444cdc60&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FCDoiSgNWA AAhoFy.jpgBae.....I don't approve of the hose being ruined like this, please have the respect not to attach my name to such an image - I've never once done this to you and no, I don't intend to start.
That out of the way, I've been doing some thinking about Baltimore today and once again, no surprise here, I've got a different take on it than most here will. My take is this - I believe there is a lot of anger out there in society in general. I believe this transcends race, orientation, social class, etc. But here we are dealing with anger from the lower end of society - racial issues and economic issues from those who don't really have much to lose and don't have much stake in society. I'm going to state something here I believe few will actually understand if they have known some level of security in their life and if they have never known fear of the United States. But I'm going to say it anyway.
Be grateful that this event happened and these thugs were able to vent some steam with minimal overall losses. And yes I know there have been some businesses totally unfairly lost, and some very unfair events raining down on those living/doing business in the affected areas of Baltimore. And I'm in no way saying that what has happened is right and I am also not justifying it. My point is - be grateful these thugs were able to vent steam this way without it getting much further out of hand.
Once again, we are talking of a subset of the population that has no real stake in society and does not have much to lose - be grateful they have not banded together from urban area to urban area to urban area to cause widespread mass destruction - some of these thugs have anger to that level and it wouldn't take them much at this point to try at least to cause widespread anarchy.
These thugs are hardly angels and various posters here could go on and on and on about how these thugs broke the law and how they are in the wrong etc, etc, etc. I won't completely disagree with such posts, either. My point is I have the courage to look at society in general and see where society has done these thugs wrong and I have no problem whatsoever with levying some blame at the doorstep of this citizenship. This situation has two sides, it has taken two sides to dance the tango until this happened. Might I suggest having the courage to look and see where society has gone wrong here after blaming the thugs? I have this courage - but then I don't have much stake in this society, either, when you get right down to it. Maybe that's where I am lucky - since I don't have much to lose I can see things differently than most. A dark and ironic and strange gift but a gift nonetheless.
I'm just crossing my fingers and hoping this does not spread to other urban areas - but I don't have faith that the police won't stir the drama pot and I don't have faith that lower income communities won't provoke some of this police behavior that leads to nightmares like the one in Baltimore. Rob
Yossarian
4-28-15, 10:25pm
Might I suggest having the courage to look and see where society has gone wrong here after blaming the thugs?
I would say we have done them wrong by enabling a victim mindset and fostering a debilitating dependency on public institutions. But you'd never sign off on a productive change to that destructive dynamic. I would however bet you the amount of any large lawsuit verdict you are dreaming of that the problems are cultural and not about class, race or other inflammatory dividers.
What are the differences in subcultures that make one a success and another failures. Why do they call the highest level math classes at our school "asian math"? Genetics, or culture? Why do jews have 0.2% of the world population but 20% of the Nobel prize winners? Why do african immigrants do so much better than native african-americans?
The system is not keeping minorities or the poor down. At least not in my experince. There is however a reality in the world to reinforcing cycles, and they can be hard to break. We probably do need a change to the educational system to better support people who should not go to college. We should make sure the most qualified students get to advance regardless of their economic situation. We should provide a framework of basic care (health or otherwise) to make sure people have a safety net. But at the end of the day the only thing that will drive improvement is people taking responsibility for their own progress.
I was just thinking Yossarian--this whole situation is ALL your fault, due to your very conservative outlook.. the 400 years of slavery, the 150 years of rayciss oppression. You may as well change your screen name to George Wallace or Lester Maddox. Sorry if I sound too crazy. I'm not--just TV-educated. Thankk Mee. You kids should recll that 1989 mooovvee I assigned you to watch? Called: Do The Right Thing? Well, just thought I'd mention that there were two(2) yes two separate scenes in the mooovvee--incidents involving Fire Hydrants. I would elaborate, but don't want to be a spoiler. I would suggest that you find a still-extant video store, and either shoplift a copy of this old mooovvvee(if they have it); or wait until after hours, and smash the windows and steal it. zJust kidding. It is an interesting mooovvee, though.
As someone that lives in a city that routinely has riots over our sports teams (with burning buses and all that, win or lose doesn't seem to matter, just making it to the final game of whatever sport it is) it occurs to me that we've never had a heart wrenching thread regarding what to do about the mostly white thugs that cause those riots. Can we mix that in here or should I start a new thread about it?
Bae.....I don't approve of the hose being ruined like this,
.... Be grateful that this event happened and these thugs were able to vent some steam with minimal overall losses.
Rob.
That is a fire hose. The issue isn't that it was ruined. The issue is that there were firefighters at the end of that hose line fighting a fire. The loss of pressure could well have killed or injured them. The hose is their lifeline, especially if there are people working interior. Slashing that hose is little different from shooting at the firefighters.
I realize they have a low stress job compared to waiting tables, but still...
Rob.
That is a fire hose. The issue isn't that it was ruined. The issue is that there were firefighters at the end of that hose line fighting a fire. The loss of pressure could well have killed or injured them. The hose is their lifeline, especially if there are people working interior. Slashing that hose is little different from shooting at the firefighters.
I realize they have a low stress job compared to waiting tables, but still...Yah, they beez oppresss--how you like it eff you beez oppress?
gimmethesimplelife
4-29-15, 3:19am
Rob.
That is a fire hose. The issue isn't that it was ruined. The issue is that there were firefighters at the end of that hose line fighting a fire. The loss of pressure could well have killed or injured them. The hose is their lifeline, especially if there are people working interior. Slashing that hose is little different from shooting at the firefighters.
I realize they have a low stress job compared to waiting tables, but still...Bae, please drop the sarcasm.....please. If we can't have a little respect here on this board, how can we expect situations like the one in Baltimore not to erupt, given the givens and the issues behind them?
Did you not see that I don't side with those who did this? Actions such as this are not going to make friends or influence people.....common sense there. OTOH, Bae, if you lived in poverty in Baltimore I'd be willing to bet your take on life in general might be very different that the one you post here? This situation did not just occur in a vacuum - there are long standing issues behind it. I am against the rioting and the looting and most especially the burning - what possible good can such achieve? But I also understand the anger that causes situations like this to happen.....I've lived in fear of America long enough to "get it" and I'm not siding with the rioters here, I'm just saying that I can understand what drives them to behave this way - right or wrong is not what I am debating when I say this.
What I am really afraid of is this situation spreading to other potential powder keg areas......Cleveland, Chicago, Atlanta, Birmingham, DC, New York, Hartford, Indianapolis, Louisville, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Dallas - all come to mind. There are many angry disenfranchised people out there Bae and I have a feeling we as a nation may be entering a period where a). We are going to start paying a price for it more than can be stifled by government programs, and b). this situation is just not going to be swept under America's carpet any more. I'm of the opinion that long term, this may be a good thing. YMMV.....I understand that people's opinions on this topic are going to be shaped by social class first and life experiences second. I also believe there are no easy answers to this issue but thankfully, I really don't believe it can be stifled any longer. Rob
As someone that lives in a city that routinely has riots over our sports teams (with burning buses and all that, win or lose doesn't seem to matter, just making it to the final game of whatever sport it is) it occurs to me that we've never had a heart wrenching thread regarding what to do about the mostly white thugs that cause those riots. Can we mix that in here or should I start a new thread about it?
Actually there were stories that one of things that initially escalated the riots was people coming out of the bars after the game and taunting and throwing things at the protesters.
I read something this morning about rioting and destruction of property being reframed when it's done by people we like. We call it the Boston tea party.
As someone that lives in a city that routinely has riots over our sports teams (with burning buses and all that, win or lose doesn't seem to matter, just making it to the final game of whatever sport it is) it occurs to me that we've never had a heart wrenching thread regarding what to do about the mostly white thugs that cause those riots. Can we mix that in here or should I start a new thread about it?
I'm with you. A riot is a riot, a thug is a thug, destruction is destruction. Why are the Baltimore protestors, who are protesting police killings of unarmed Black men, evil while white rioters who carry out exactly the same actions because their team won or lost are described as celebrants? Just to make it crystal clear: I am very much against violence and destruction. I'm also against flat-out hypocrisy and double standards. And I consider the violence and rioting over a game - a GAME - immeasurably worse than riots over violated civil rights.
http://mic.com/articles/116680/11-stunning-images-highlight-the-double-standard-of-reactions-to-riots-like-baltimore
iris lilies
4-29-15, 10:49am
I read something this morning about rioting and destruction of property being reframed when it's done by people we like. We call it the Boston tea party.
Ha. I tell DH that he would have likely been a Tory sympathizer in 1776 because he doesn't,t like to rocks boats.
Why bother trying to parse out the motivations behind a destructive act? Why not simply judge people by their actions rather than what we want to assume their reasons to be? That way we simply punish the crime as committed rather than try to delve into the soul of every thief and arsonist, avoiding all the relativist rhetorical sludge.
Hold individuals accountable for what they do in the real world. If someone is damaging firefighting equipment in active use, I think it's appropriate to shoot them. They're threatening lives, and should be dealt with accordingly. History, a lost championship, or racism or viewing "America" as some sort of abusive parent really don't matter to the people they're putting at risk.
I'm with you. A riot is a riot, a thug is a thug, destruction is destruction. Why are the Baltimore protestors, who are protesting police killings of unarmed Black men, evil while white rioters who carry out exactly the same actions because their team won or lost are described as celebrants? Just to make it crystal clear: I am very much against violence and destruction. I'm also against flat-out hypocrisy and double standards. And I consider the violence and rioting over a game - a GAME - immeasurably worse than riots over violated civil rights.
http://mic.com/articles/116680/11-stunning-images-highlight-the-double-standard-of-reactions-to-riots-like-baltimore
Protester does not automatically equal thug - but this seems to be what people and the media say. And not everyone who is a thug was a protester.
When property gets damaged and cars overturned after a sports event, we do not say sports spectators are thugs, we always say some folks got out of hand. But the protesters get smeared with a broad brush.
If there was a march to protest the riots and violence, or to march for the police, and some folks used the opportunity to cause more violence, are these protesters thugs as well?
Everyone, if pushed far enough, and angry enough, can go from anger to rage and lashing out. Even gay people, normally a very peaceful lot, have a couple of riots under our belts.
It would seem that there are two solutions. One, we can just mow the rioters down with bullets. Plenty of societies have attempted this method. The second solution is to actually look at why the people are rioting and make changes to end the cause of the anger and rage. Frankly, demilitarizing our police and teaching them ways to handle situations in ways that still keep them safe but don't result in people's spines getting broken seems like the better solution.
If there was a march to protest the riots and violence, or to march for the police, and some folks used the opportunity to cause more violence, are these protesters thugs as well?
The ones who "cause more violence"? Yes.
I read something this morning about rioting and destruction of property being reframed when it's done by people we like. We call it the Boston tea party.
Yes, I see now that these folks are the moral equivalent to our Founding Fathers:
http://www.trbimg.com/img-553ebc9a/turbine/bal-baltimore-riots-looting-cvs-drugstore-20150427/960/960x540
http://21stcenturywire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2-Baltimore-Looting.jpg
http://media.masslive.com/breakingnews/photo/2015/04/27/042715-baltimore-lootingjpg-5ce40889faa82c8b.jpg
As to root causes, here might be a spot to look:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518BJ4C52QL.jpg
The ones who "cause more violence"? Yes.
Agreed - but we seem to be saying that protesting = violence and all protesters are guilty of it. Dangerous road there - whoever speaks out is branded a criminal.
Agreed - but we seem to be saying that protesting = violence and all protesters are guilty of it.
Who is saying that?
What I have seen in protests is that the overwhelming majority of protesters are peacefully engaging in their freedom of assembly and speech. And that there are a handful of jerks, anarchists, extremists of various stripes, and professional agitators who breeze in to take advantage of the situation.
Guess which ones make the headlines?
Protest, assembly, and petition is fine. Burning down a senior housing facility and a pharmacy, looting stores, and cutting the hoses of the firefighters is not fine. Simple concept.
Give the first group cookies and an ear. Give the second group something firmer....
ApatheticNoMore
4-29-15, 12:58pm
read something this morning about rioting and destruction of property being reframed when it's done by people we like. We call it the Boston tea party.
can't you just say it's ineffective? Burning down neighborhoods most people in society won't even go to (I didn't say it's right or wrong they won't go to them, just that it's true), isn't going to change things. Now it's doubtful whether peaceful protest will either (it's not exactly a responsive system we live in) but I think it was doing better at having a hope of such (and non-violent protest was most of the "black lives matter" movement) than random unfocused violence. I could be wrong, maybe the riots help somehow, it's just that the only time they ever seemed to was arguably in the 60s although there were a much greater quantity of riots then. There's been plenty of riots since, change (in say police behavior or even inner city economic opportunities), not so much so.
When is it morally acceptable to use violence in political/social protest?
Related, what is a "just war"?
I think there's some literature on the topic.
What are the differences in subcultures that make one a success and another failures. Why do they call the highest level math classes at our school "asian math"? Genetics, or culture? Why do jews have 0.2% of the world population but 20% of the Nobel prize winners? Why do african immigrants do so much better than native african-americans?
I really like these questions, because they are so provocative. As for your last example, my own theory (maybe a crackpot one--who knows) has something to do with some hypotheses on the generational impact of addiction, as it's explained by Gabor Mate. Gabor Mate says that there have been studies to prove that if a pregnant mother experiences extraordinary stress in her life, that stress gets imprinted on the fetus at a cellular level. The child is then born with cortisol levels that are all askew and is vulnerable to addictive coping mechanisms as a result.
My belief is that because we stole native African Americans from their homeland and exploited them mercilessly, they are still working that out at the cellular level. I don't think that takes one generation--I think that takes many. Does that absolve them from personal responsibility? Absolutely not. But it helps to explain why sometimes their behavior is reactive and suggests total disenfranchisement. Hello… they are disenfranchised, because the white colonialists disenfranchised them right out their own homes.
This is a general comment--I'm not commenting on Baltimore per se. Just responding to Yossarian's interesting questions.
BTW, bae, I love Jonathan Kozol--haven't read that book, but I'll look it up.
BTW, bae, I love Jonathan Kozol--haven't read that book, but I'll look it up.
I could only read a small bit at a time, it was an exercise in anger management for me.
Who is saying that?
What I have seen in protests is that the overwhelming majority of protesters are peacefully engaging in their freedom of assembly and speech. And that there are a handful of jerks, anarchists, extremists of various stripes, and professional agitators who breeze in to take advantage of the situation.
Guess which ones make the headlines?
Protest, assembly, and petition is fine. Burning down a senior housing facility and a pharmacy, looting stores, and cutting the hoses of the firefighters is not fine. Simple concept.
Give the first group cookies and an ear. Give the second group something firmer....
Agreed - I just think the line between protesting and looting and destruction of property gets blurred - when there really should be a clear demarcation, even if the protesters are breaking the law by protesting.
Kids, I see some quibbling, some if....then...yeah, but:....comparing-apples-to-oranges, here. So, just to clarify, and I think I speak on behalf of a majority of Zurrians: 1)People Rioting and Burning and Looting and Interfering with Official Acts and Emergency crews should be shot on sight. This would include people of ANY race, creed, color. This would include rioting after a stoopidball game, too. This would include rioting over ideological issues, as well. That would be the price you pay. I don't know for sure, but the authorities----British would have been justified in using force to deter the tea partiers, or punish them after the fact. Even though some people may claim that the eventual outcome justifies the means, they need to realize just the same that they are placing themselves at-risk by rioting or looting. If some thug wants to risk its' life over looting a package of toilet paper, that is its' problem. The reason they do it, is because they know they WON'T get shot. But, that is the price they should pay. This will sharply curtail the rioting. Just betcha. Two instances that come to mind of terroristic acts by very idealistic fanatics are that of the murder of an MD in Florida by an anti-abortion activist, who was a defrocked minister. Also, you have Tim McVeigh, decorated gulf war vet, who as you remember, blew up the Federal Building in OKC, 20 years ago. While some people----even a good many people---may agree with their idealism, I think that given the outcome of their "activism", most people would agree that if anyone deserved a death sentence, those two did. They paid the price for their "activism" aka terrorist acts. See how that works? We don't excuse that kind of thing because of their self-righteous ideals or acts of vengeance for perceived wrongs. Hope that helps you some. Thankk Mee.
Agreed - I just think the line between protesting and looting and destruction of property gets blurred - when there really should be a clear demarcation, even if the protesters are breaking the law by protesting.
I have now corresponded with three different friends/associates of mine in the Baltimore area. One of them is an active-duty law enforcement officer there. They each have claimed to me that the situation is:
- worse than is reported in the media, in very small limited areas
- much better than is being reported, in most of the areas
Examination of the photos and videos of the rioting with a careful eye seems to be in agreement with their claims - we are shown the same handful of sites, from multiple angles. We are not shown much the thousands of peaceful protesters, who if they are breaking the law are only breaking parade-permit and free-speech-zone sorta laws, which I place in a different category than burning buildings and throwing rocks at people.
So, I think the media is spinning us up a narrative to get plenty of click-bait, and various interested parties are leaping in to frame the events to advance their particular causes.
My belief is that because we stole native African Americans from their homeland and exploited them mercilessly, they are still working that out at the cellular level.
"We"? Did I inherit some guilt along with my fair skin and colorblindness?
You can't hang slavery on me. I have an alibi.
... the generational impact of addiction, as it's explained by Gabor Mate. Gabor Mate says ...
On that bunny trail, I find Maté's model to be overly-simple, overly-reductionist, and while an interesting theory it seems to be contrary to the data:
http://www.acestudy.org/files/OriginsofAddiction.pdf
So I have a hard time believing, from the evidence, that the sins and travails of the mother are visited on future generations at a cellular level.
Ha. I tell DH that he would have likely been a Tory sympathizer in 1776 because he doesn't,t like to rocks boats.Yeah, see---the States prolly could have achieved independence & autonomy eventually, without resorting to warfare. It just might have taken a longer period of time. That's all. But, it would have saved engaging in at least two wars, one of which(1812) resulted in the sacking of Washington DC and the building now known as the White House.
ApatheticNoMore
4-29-15, 2:21pm
What are the differences in subcultures that make one a success and another failures. Why do they call the highest level math classes at our school "asian math"? Genetics, or culture? Why do jews have 0.2% of the world population but 20% of the Nobel prize winners? Why do african immigrants do so much better than native african-americans?
it helps to have come to the country voluntarily. But ...
My belief is that because we stole native African Americans from their homeland and exploited them mercilessly, they are still working that out at the cellular level. I don't think that takes one generation--I think that takes many.
the larger (largely white) society has never really wanted to do their part to mend it either. Ok much overt discrimination has lessened. But it seem the one attempt that was really made by the larger society to deal with inner city poverty was the war on poverty, but that kind of fell prey to Vietnam war spending (a few particulars may have also been misguided as well, but no I don't think the whole idea was). Where is the multi-generation commitment in the larger society?
Does that absolve them from personal responsibility? Absolutely not. But it helps to explain why sometimes their behavior is reactive and suggests total disenfranchisement.
the peaceful protestors focus on things happening now not history. They protest killings now, it's not just history, it has blood flowing through it (and what history it is may be FAR CLOSER THAN IT APPEARS - ie disproportionate number of African Americans locked up for the same crimes etc.).
As for rioting being reactive, yea probably, but the whole thing is caught in reactive circles now, police brutality -> riots -> more police distrust of the population -> more likelihood of police brutality -> more potential for riots
ApatheticNoMore
4-29-15, 2:30pm
I have no problem believing the in utero environment of the mother including the emotional components affects her children. I just think it trivializes the real political concerns that motivate the protestors (not necessarily the rioters) to attribute it to that.
http://www.acestudy.org/files/OriginsofAddiction.pdf
So I have a hard time believing, from the evidence, that the sins and travails of the mother are visited on future generations at a cellular level.
so that report seems to say it's more childhood experience (abuse and neglect and so on) than just the in utero environment or much less the in utero environment over generations.
In utero environment and genes probably determine the type of personality traits that are immediately evident even in an infant, that determines how the mother (and other caretakers) react to the children (but that's two way, some mothers may be better able to parent the super energetic extrovert child and others the shy child). Ok that's attachment. Then a whole bunch of other childhood factors including overtly abusive and dysfunctional families.
On that bunny trail, I find Maté's model to be overly-simple, overly-reductionist, and while an interesting theory it seems to be contrary to the data:
http://www.acestudy.org/files/OriginsofAddiction.pdf
So I have a hard time believing, from the evidence, that the sins and travails of the mother are visited on future generations at a cellular level.
Sorry to continue the detour, but I'll try to get the last word :)
The maternal stress hypothesis is by no means Maté's "magic bullet"--his book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts is highly nuanced, IMO. I have seen some YouTube videos/TED talks lately that do seem to reduce his theories to nice little morality plays, but that's not representative of his work in general. I know you can't take a complex subject like addiction and come up with one right answer.
I think Maté would agree with the findings of the ACE study with regard to the long-term impact of adverse childhood experience as another important piece of the puzzle. EDITED TO ADD: Apparently he bases part of one of his books (When the Body Says No: Understanding the Stress-Disease Connection) on ACE studies, so his work clearly does not contradict the data you presented, but in fact heavily supports it.
But that one correlation is also too simple. If that were THE answer, in my family, my 3 brothers and I would all be alcoholic or addicted or otherwise messed up. As it turns out, my youngest brother is the hard core life-long alcoholic, and who know, maybe my mother's state of mind during that pregnancy, when my father was off-the-rails drinking, had something to do with my brother's addiction. Neither my two other brothers nor I are alcoholic. My oldest brother, who suffered the most ACEs because he was an orphan who wound up in my family and was treated by my mother like a foster kid, is happily married and has lived a very productive life. Yet, his ACEs are very much a part of his psyche and that pain has never gone away.
The cellular thing is really another expression of the whole Buddhist store consciousness thing, or Jung's collective unconscious. I'm not saying I have bought it all, but I do think it's possible, and interesting.
flowerseverywhere
4-29-15, 4:37pm
I feel bad for the people who lost homes and businesses, and places to obtain goods like prescriptions. One news station reported it was the only pharmacy in a square mile. I am sure they are debAting the pros and cons of rebuilding from an economic and social view. I hated seeing people taunting the police with cellphones trying to catch one of them doing something wrong.
I cannot help but think as a civilized society we have failed a large segment of American citizens. Despite affirmative action, social nets and entitlement programs we have a large proportion of African American males jailed in comparison to their white counterparts.
Something like 40% of births are to unmarried women, again many more black and Hispanics proportionately than white women, a huge economic, social and care taking advantage, as opposed to growing up in a two parent household.
Far more blacks live in poverty percentage wide.
This is is not an excuse for the actions we all saw, which only served to hurt the community and reinforce the thug stereotype. Even Obama called them that.
but more important is how can this chain be broken? How can people be given a hand up to help them break the cycle?
We're just too danged easy on ALL criminals, in our attempt to be "civilized". It's coming back to bite us. I know it's much more complicated than that....but I would love to see more consequences to bad behavior.
And these people who were robbing the CVS store........were they thinking this would somehow change their lives? I'm betting there were a lot of blacks who worked in that store. It's just a chance for jerks to be worse jerks.
And I'm not sure that giving them a hand up, would change who they have become. Maybe DNA matters??
And I'm not sure that giving them a hand up, would change who they have become. Maybe DNA matters??
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0pxjikOto1qa29uz.gif
The system is not keeping minorities or the poor down. At least not in my experience.
Are you a minority?
And did you by chance read Matt Taibbi's book? "It's not something to believe or not believe, it's something to look up." R. Maddow
Are you a minority?
And did you by chance read Matt Taibbi's book? "It's not something to believe or not believe, it's something to look up." R. Maddow
I get it. The NBA is keeping white people down. Where do I line up to protest?
I do a fair amount of HR work. There is a tremendous demand for qualified minority employees. There are active promotion preferences once you are in. If you are a minority all you have to do is show up marginally qualified and you have it made. The problem is finding people who have bothered to even marginally qualify themselves. As I originally qualified, that's my experience.
I get it. The NBA is keeping white people down. Where do I line up to protest?
Never mind, the sarcasm indicates there's no real need to try for a serious discussion.
In the meantime, I wish the white community leaders would get the white community together -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdSsBYO1oNI#action=share
We're just too danged easy on ALL criminals, in our attempt to be "civilized". It's coming back to bite us. I know it's much more complicated than that....but I would love to see more consequences to bad behavior.
And these people who were robbing the CVS store........were they thinking this would somehow change their lives? I'm betting there were a lot of blacks who worked in that store. It's just a chance for jerks to be worse jerks.
And I'm not sure that giving them a hand up, would change who they have become. Maybe DNA matters??
Give me a break. We've got more people locked up in prisons than any other population. And it appears that we treat people pretty brutally on their way to prison. Apparently you think my suggestion #1 above is the answer. Just mow all the ****ers down with bullets to teach them a lesson.
It's not DNA that matters. It's a lack of any kind of successful role models. When you are born to a broken family, in a neighborhood with lots of broken families and unemployment is astronomical, go to shitty schools full of kids from broken families, etc, how exactly do we expect them to turn out anything other than broken and hopeless. It's the rare individual who is able to live in that environment and be able to see a better future for themselves and work to achieve it. Yes it can be done, people do do it, but clearly it's not easy or more than a fraction of kids from that environment would. Throwing up our hands and telling them it's their DNA is not only defeating any hope that more of them might succeed than currently do is not only not going to solve the problem, it frankly sounds quite racist.
Yeah, but--it IS in their DNA. Just ask your cat why it wants to catch birds & rodents. Now, Those People--hey--they gots da "Row moddals" or whatever. Their forefathers were tearing the inner cities apart 20 & 50 years ago, too. Now do you see? My solution is: lets put 'em on Reservations, where they can "preserve their culture", govern theresefffs and not be trying to date your daughter, robbing & drugging & killing & stealing in our midst. Then they will live happily ever after, without interference from rayciss like you and me.
iris lilies
4-29-15, 11:38pm
...
So, I think the media is spinning us up a narrative to get plenty of click-bait, and various interested parties are leaping in to frame the events to advance their particular causes.
You mean, like these guys? This is the newsroom 6 days ago when it was announced that my local rag, The St. Louis Post Dispatch, won the Pulitzer Prize for photographic journalism for their series of photos about riots in Ferguson, MO. The Post provides a constant stream of race bait content to the click world, it serves their purpose.
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8797/16627239983_511a3d0d9c_b.jpg
Yah, the P-U-litzer Prize for Yellow Journalizzm.!!! After all, the San Lo Dis Pispatch invented it. That figures...
Give me a break. We've got more people locked up in prisons than any other population. And it appears that we treat people pretty brutally on their way to prison. Apparently you think my suggestion #1 above is the answer. Just mow all the ****ers down with bullets to teach them a lesson.
It's not DNA that matters. It's a lack of any kind of successful role models. When you are born to a broken family, in a neighborhood with lots of broken families and unemployment is astronomical, go to shitty schools full of kids from broken families, etc, how exactly do we expect them to turn out anything other than broken and hopeless. It's the rare individual who is able to live in that environment and be able to see a better future for themselves and work to achieve it. Yes it can be done, people do do it, but clearly it's not easy or more than a fraction of kids from that environment would. Throwing up our hands and telling them it's their DNA is not only defeating any hope that more of them might succeed than currently do is not only not going to solve the problem, it frankly sounds quite racist.
Oh, so we should just let criminals run around loose, because the prisons are already too full? I'm for the death penalty for violent repeaters. Whatever the system is for all the others, there must be a flaw in it......and a flaw in the entire approach by this country. And there's lots of single white mothers......but they don't tend to have 8 kids that they then ignore.
And I guess I am a racist, since I believe that cultures/peoples from different geographical areas, etc., ARE different.....and very likely in their DNA. And the whole premise of this country is that everyone is the same, and there aren't any differences.
We keep forcing "sameness" onto everyone, and if their different culture/DNA surfaces, we keep trying to make all sorts of excuses about why it's happening, and spend billions of dollars trying to cover the differences up....or support the cover up by having all sorts of programs to try to make it look like it's all okay.
I realize the "nature versus nurture" is a very real thing, but we refuse to consider the "nature" aspect any more.
Do you see Jews continuing to riot in Germany? Do you see Japanese citizens here continuing to riot? It's just an excuse to be allowed to be irresponsible. Yes, poverty definitely plays into it, but LOTS of people have been poor and don't end up rioting and being destructive and cause all sorts of problems. We in the country are so full of excuses, in order to make it look like this melting pot experiment is working. I don't think it is. And all this ridiculous talk about "having a national conversation" and "bringing everyone together in truth" is just B.S., since the real problem isn't being addressed........and that is that there ARE basic differences and it's hard to live in a place that constantly tells us that there AREN'T any differences, or makes excuses for them.
I'm saying what I think has brought us to this point. It's a combination of not realizing the force of basic differences and then making all sorts of rationalizations about them and saying everyone is the same and should be treated the same.
There have always been the poor. There have always been slaves (in history). But this country has rejected those things, as being wrong. I think our trying to change that is causing lots of problems.
Never mind, the sarcasm indicates there's no real need to try for a serious discussion.
There is a need for serious discussion. But it also needs to be an honest one else you just end up pushing on strings.
It's not DNA that matters. It's a lack of any kind of successful role models. When you are born to a broken family, in a neighborhood with lots of broken families and unemployment is astronomical, go to shitty schools full of kids from broken families, etc, how exactly do we expect them to turn out anything other than broken and hopeless. It's the rare individual who is able to live in that environment and be able to see a better future for themselves and work to achieve it. Yes it can be done, people do do it, but clearly it's not easy or more than a fraction of kids from that environment would. Throwing up our hands and telling them it's their DNA is not only defeating any hope that more of them might succeed than currently do is not only not going to solve the problem, it frankly sounds quite racist.
I agree. But if that is the starting point how do you change that? It's not so easy, and well intentioned ideas can actually make things worse.
since I believe that cultures/peoples from different geographical areas, etc., ARE different.....and very likely in their DNA. And the whole premise of this country is that everyone is the same, and there aren't any differences.
People might be different, but that shouldn't determine how they are perceived or treated by others.
Do you see Jews continuing to riot in Germany? Do you see Japanese citizens here continuing to riot? It's just an excuse to be allowed to be irresponsible. Yes, poverty definitely plays into it, but LOTS of people have been poor and don't end up rioting and being destructive and cause all sorts of problems.
If you look at history, injustice winds up reaping its karma in one way or another. The poor in France started the French Revolution. The bolsheviks in Russia wound up revolting. You might say that the attitudes of the Zionists who are keeping the Palestinians from their own homeland is a reaction to their own experiences in Germany.
And all this ridiculous talk about "having a national conversation" and "bringing everyone together in truth" is just B.S., since the real problem isn't being addressed........and that is that there ARE basic differences and it's hard to live in a place that constantly tells us that there AREN'T any differences, or makes excuses for them.
I'm saying what I think has brought us to this point. It's a combination of not realizing the force of basic differences and then making all sorts of rationalizations about them and saying everyone is the same and should be treated the same.
There have always been the poor. There have always been slaves (in history). But this country has rejected those things, as being wrong. I think our trying to change that is causing lots of problems.
What's causing all these problems IS the "we" vs. "them" attitude. How do things get better if you START with the premise that a whole group of people are worse than you because they just are. How do things get better if you say "oh well, people are poor. Too bad. Oh well, people are exploited. Too bad." And then you expect the poor and downtrodden to not feel frustration?
You are talking about two different things but trying to link them together. Should all people be accountable for their actions? Yes. Doesn't matter what age, sex, race, income, or geography. Should we use hatred, separation, and racist stereotyping as a way to deal with irrational fear? No. Should the National Guard round up all the blacks in Ferguson and Baltimore? Then what? Is some kind of ethnic cleansing in order? As Packy suggests, shall we ship them to a remote corner of Montana or Oklahoma? Or maybe back to Africa? Just because of a sinfully erroneous perception that they're "different" (i.e. worse people) than we are--just because they're black?
Fear and separation and an "us vs. them" mentality is not going to help you, or me, or the blacks, or the Hispanics, or the Asians, or the poor, or any other citizen in this country.
There are a lot of problems/crime every night in the city near here......murders/rapes/robberies/car jackings, almost every night. There are a group of black ministers who are really trying to help. There are rallies, walks, etc. I appreciate their involvement and attempts to deal with it, but I don't think it makes any difference. They're sort of preaching to the choir. There has been a big attempt to get people in the most vulnerable communities in the city to speak out when they see bad things happening........but that doesn't seem to do anything. The police are trying to connect with people in these neighborhoods....which is great.
But all these actions just seem to be very small bandaids.
And I fear this is going to get a lot more out of control because we can't figure out how to change people. It IS a very complex issue.
What I am saying catherine, is that I think our primitive wiring IS set up for "Them versus us" in many instances. Like racial profiling........If you have the same "type" of person who tends to act a certain way, you'd be naive to not have that filed in the back of your mind as something you should be cautious/distrustful of. I like my primitive wiring.....it keeps me safe/alive. But I realize that to be "civilized" we have to try to rise above those leanings. (whether good or bad).
I'm sorry if I'm rambling. I know what I say sounds totally unhelpful and negative..........I'm just saying that I think our problems have more to do with our primitive hard-wiring that we constantly try to deny.
I have no clue how to handle the present black situation. All I know is that I'm decent to people. I'm decent to the black people I come across during the day. I might dislike how they act, carry themselves, talk, etc., but I'm decent to them. But I'm very uncomfortable with the culture a lot of them have around here. And when you see a certain type of people causing lots of problems over and over and over, and multiplying in numbers much faster than the reasonable people, it can be very disconcerting.
Well, if you see everyone, and all life, as one organism, One Body, perhaps you could see our relationships with other "different" people in a different way. Here's one of my favorite Thich Nhat Hanh stories:
Thich Nhat Hanh goes on to say that he was trying to hammer a nail into the wall but he missed the nail, and he ended up hitting the thumb on his left hand with the hammer. His right hand immediately put down the hammer and held the left hand very tenderly, as if it was taking care of itself.
The right hand did not then say to the left hand: “Left hand, remember that I, the right hand, have taken good care of you. You have to pay me back some time in the future.” At the same time, the left hand didn’t say: “Right hand, you’ve done me a great harm. Give me the hammer. I want justice.” The two hands know that they’re together; they know that they’re in each other’s care.
You talk about primitive hard wiring: I think we've strayed WAY too far as a civilization and need to back-pedal--a lot. Maybe if we were more like the tribal cultures our ancestors decimated in the name of profit, we would all be better and happier. Who knows.
So, I think the media is spinning us up a narrative to get plenty of click-bait, and various interested parties are leaping in to frame the events to advance their particular causes.
Apparently a two hour special on Bruce Jenner's wardrobe change last week was enough to wear that topic thin so the spin doctors needed to head a different direction for a few days. We'll be back to Bruce as soon as there's nothing left to show except the other 99+% of Baltimore citizens working together to clean the mess up.
What I am saying catherine, is that I think our primitive wiring IS set up for "Them versus us" in many instances. Like racial profiling........If you have the same "type" of person who tends to act a certain way, you'd be naive to not have that filed in the back of your mind as something you should be cautious/distrustful of. I like my primitive wiring.....it keeps me safe/alive. But I realize that to be "civilized" we have to try to rise above those leanings. (whether good or bad).
I see the desire/need to achieve the "preservation of us" which is not necessarily "them versus us" unless we all want the same thing and there isn't enough to go around. Somehow the beasts of the savannah have worked out a system where they can all get a drink of water. It is humans that feel the need to 'own' the water rather than share it even though there is plenty of this metaphorical water to go around.
Competition is a wonderful thing because it is a driver for excellence and innovation, but the "versus" part is just greed. Why do I need more than you? Why does my tribe need to have more than yours? Its sad to think that we seem to so rarely achieve great things that don't come at the expense of someone else.
catherine
4-30-15, 11:43am
Coincidentally, I just got this article, "How White People Got Made" in my email. It's hard to find a pithy excerpt, but basically it outlines the historical American events and political decisions that created this gulf between blacks and whites.
https://medium.com/message/how-white-people-got-made-6eeb076ade42
I see the desire/need to achieve the "preservation of us" which is not necessarily "them versus us" unless we all want the same thing and there isn't enough to go around. Somehow the beasts of the savannah have worked out a system where they can all get a drink of water. It is humans that feel the need to 'own' the water rather than share it even though there is plenty of this metaphorical water to go around.
Competition is a wonderful thing because it is a driver for excellence and innovation, but the "versus" part is just greed. Why do I need more than you? Why does my tribe need to have more than yours? Its sad to think that we seem to so rarely achieve great things that don't come at the expense of someone else.
Who gets to decide what is "fair share" and what is "greed".
catherine........I respect your view of things, but I don't have a great need to feel that I'm in any way connected to certain other people. The human race, as far as I'm concerned has done nothing but destroy things. I think we're a mutation, a blight upon this beautiful earth. It's as if we don't even belong here.
And, by the way, I don't feel negatively about all other races. In my experience, I might have had very good interactions with certain ethnicities, and I might have had bad ones. I respond to that.
I feel pretty hopeless about relying on humans to fix just about anything in a good way. I'm actually much more connected to nature than to humans.
I think some differences/conflicts are unsolvable.......which is fine if we can live apart from each other. But we can't.
catherine
4-30-15, 12:37pm
Who gets to decide what is "fair share" and what is "greed".
I think it's probably like that Supreme Court quote about obscenity: you know it when you see it. You see a kid who shares and you see a greedy brat.. don't you know the difference? Maybe you can't legislate it, but you can find ways to support or condone one vs the other in society. You can value one vs. the other. Our culture elevates greed to the level of virtue.
I think it's probably like that Supreme Court quote about obscenity: you know it when you see it. You see a kid who shares and you see a greedy brat.. don't you know the difference? Maybe you can't legislate it, but you can find ways to support or condone one vs the other in society. You can value one vs. the other. Our culture elevates greed to the level of virtue.
But isn't that what the capitalistic system is all about, and what is number one on this country's list of what's important/essential/vital/blah, blah, blah?
And I guess I am a racist, since I believe that cultures/peoples from different geographical areas, etc., ARE different.....and very likely in their DNA.
You are correct. That is a racist point of view.
Culture isn't carried in the DNA in humans.
Question: if someone is only half-darkie, will their culture be OK? How about 1/4? Or 1/8? When does the taint of the blood go away?
Our culture elevates greed to the level of virtue.
I think you're being unfair to "our culture" (if such a thing exists). I have served in uniform with good people willing to endure everything from inconvenience and indignity to mortal danger to protect their country, and they weren't in it for the money. I work every day with people who chose public service over the maximum paycheck. My daughter's school exists because families are willing to make the financial and time sacrifices needed to provide the best education they can. I serve on the board of directors of an organization that builds houses for families that might not otherwise afford one (nobody involved is getting rich, I'll tell you that). This board you're posting on gives the lie to the concept of greed as a virtue.
Are there people who prioritize material gain? Sure. Let them. Everyone should have a right to chart his own course and live with the consequences. But if you're using them to condemn a whole society, I think you're missing a lot.
Who gets to decide what is "fair share" and what is "greed".
Kind of my point. There is no need to decide. Rather than talking about "shares" why can't we add a little more depth to one of this group's buzzwords: enough. If a resource has the potential to be virtually unlimited, as it could be with opportunity of all kinds, then why does anyone need to care if someone else has more or less? In the Africa analogy no antelope is harmed because an elephant drinks more than it does because it still has enough.
There's nothing inherently wrong with someone having more of anything than someone else. The problems arise when that something is necessary for quality of life, or even life itself. We are fortunate to live in a dynamic society where wealth and opportunity can be created at any time. To raise the floor there isn't any need to grab chunks of the ceiling*. Considering that the upper socioeconomic levels are where the ownership of assets can be found there is fantastic opportunity available to those who provide opportunity to their workforce. No better way I know of to increase profitability than to educate your workers (problem solving and innovation in-house), help them get healthier (less sick time, lower healthcare/insurance costs), keep them happy and feeling secure about their prospects (retention, less training, recruitment & legal issues), etc. But that's a long term investment strategy, it will rarely produce the most dramatic quarterly results.
*Want to do away with income inequality? If the average boss makes 200 times what the average worker does, increase the average worker's wage by 4X. Then the gap is only 50 times. Oversimplified yes, but not necessarily wrong.
I think you're being unfair to "our culture" (if such a thing exists). I have served in uniform with good people willing to endure everything from inconvenience and indignity to mortal danger to protect their country, and they weren't in it for the money. I work every day with people who chose public service over the maximum paycheck. My daughter's school exists because families are willing to make the financial and time sacrifices needed to provide the best education they can. I serve on the board of directors of an organization that builds houses for families that might not otherwise afford one (nobody involved is getting rich, I'll tell you that). This board you're posting on gives the lie to the concept of greed as a virtue.
Are there people who prioritize material gain? Sure. Let them. Everyone should have a right to chart his own course and live with the consequences. But if you're using them to condemn a whole society, I think you're missing a lot.
I don't mean to condemn the people.. I really don't. I like people! What I object to is the system (political/media/corporatocracy) that only works by "encouraging" people to want more, buy more, aspire to more while we kill the planet and incur vast inequalities in the process.
catherine........I respect your view of things, but I don't have a great need to feel that I'm in any way connected to certain other people. The human race, as far as I'm concerned has done nothing but destroy things. I think we're a mutation, a blight upon this beautiful earth. It's as if we don't even belong here.
How sad for you. I feel quite differently. There are a lot of great things to say about the human race. The Jupiter Symphony. Single malt scotch. Wrigley Field. The Bill of Rights. The Maltese Falcon. A flag on the moon. The coalition against the Nazis. The Red Cross. Little kids playing fair. Poker. The Alpha Romeo Spider Veloce. NATO. Pretzels. Lincoln's Second Inaugural. The Pieta. The Grand Slam at Denny's. You may be right. We may be a filthy pestilence hurtling toward a well-deserved oblivion, but you've got to admit it's been a Hell of a ride.
I don't mean to condemn the people.. I really don't. I like people! What I object to is the system (political/media/corporatocracy) that only works by "encouraging" people to want more, buy more, aspire to more while we kill the planet and incur vast inequalities in the process.
I would maintain that people are not empty vessels waiting for "the system" to tell them what they want. The great majority opt out of pure getting and consuming in favor of other priorities. I'd rather live in a world that tolerates the distasteful grasping of hedge fund managers, power forwards or the Clintons than one where official or unofficial moral scolds can tell me how to live.
gimmethesimplelife
4-30-15, 3:30pm
What I am saying catherine, is that I think our primitive wiring IS set up for "Them versus us" in many instances. Like racial profiling........If you have the same "type" of person who tends to act a certain way, you'd be naive to not have that filed in the back of your mind as something you should be cautious/distrustful of. I like my primitive wiring.....it keeps me safe/alive. But I realize that to be "civilized" we have to try to rise above those leanings. (whether good or bad).
I'm sorry if I'm rambling. I know what I say sounds totally unhelpful and negative..........I'm just saying that I think our problems have more to do with our primitive hard-wiring that we constantly try to deny.
I have no clue how to handle the present black situation. All I know is that I'm decent to people. I'm decent to the black people I come across during the day. I might dislike how they act, carry themselves, talk, etc., but I'm decent to them. But I'm very uncomfortable with the culture a lot of them have around here. And when you see a certain type of people causing lots of problems over and over and over, and multiplying in numbers much faster than the reasonable people, it can be very disconcerting.I believe there is something to what you say. There have been instances when I have been walking home late at night and the police have driven by me very slowly but not stopped and I've always believed that I don't get hassled because I have white skin. I very much believe if I were black or Latino i'd be much more likely to be hassled. How do we change how police officers instinctively think, though? I have posted time and time again of instant pension loss as a way to effect change but maybe if this is hard wired in us, instant pension loss for officers crossing the line won't help either. I know I am hard wired to fear authority and after what I have seen/experienced I rather doubt this will ever fully go away. I agree with your statement that this is a very complex issue. Rob
How sad for you. I feel quite differently. There are a lot of great things to say about the human race. The Jupiter Symphony. Single malt scotch. Wrigley Field. The Bill of Rights. The Maltese Falcon. A flag on the moon. The coalition against the Nazis. The Red Cross. Little kids playing fair. Poker. The Alpha Romeo Spider Veloce. NATO. Pretzels. Lincoln's Second Inaugural. The Pieta. The Grand Slam at Denny's. You may be right. We may be a filthy pestilence hurtling toward a well-deserved oblivion, but you've got to admit it's been a Hell of a ride.
I have LOTS of things of beauty that fill my life....but they're mostly all in nature. Don't be sad for me at all. There are, of course things I enjoy that man has made. But seeing mankind destroy a great friend of mine is hard to watch.
Rob.......I do believe a lot of it IS instinctual, and we're constantly expecting humans to over-ride instinct. Right or wrong/good or bad.......it presents a lot of our present problems.
It's much more than individual instinct or personality. "Cut Adrift" is a non-fiction book which looks at a number of families on the various parts of the economic spectrum. It was interesting to see how each reacted to the 2008 Great Recession.
Wealthy people reacted by wanting to build a bigger moat between themselves and the next lower group. Poorer/working class people blamed themselves and pulled back their expectations, finally giving up on the American Dream. But as has been said above, what really would work best is for all of us to acknowledge that as a society, "we all do better when we all do better" as the late Paul Wellstone said.
That to me is the American Dream, and that's what is a combination of government policies (G.I. Bill, low-interest college loans, free public school K-12, free/minimal cost basic health care, etc.) and work ethic can provide. If, instead, we spend our treasure ($3 trillion+) in permanent wars, and then blame individuals when there is nothing left for spending on infrastructure, pre-school, clinics, national parks, etc. then all the aphorisms in the world will not stop our societal decline.
I would maintain that people are not empty vessels waiting for "the system" to tell them what they want. The great majority opt out of pure getting and consuming in favor of other priorities. I'd rather live in a world that tolerates the distasteful grasping of hedge fund managers, power forwards or the Clintons than one where official or unofficial moral scolds can tell me how to live.
It's not a question of morality. It's getting to be a question of survival. As Gandhi said: there is enough for everyone's need, but not enough for everyone's greed.
And I believe in free agency, but I'm also realistic about the influence of people who have money and power in our lives.
There are people like us, on this forum, who are happy in our subculture of enough, but there are few of us. As the Scots say, "Wha's Like Us? Damn Few And They're A' Died!"
catherine........I respect your view of things, but I don't have a great need to feel that I'm in any way connected to certain other people. The human race, as far as I'm concerned has done nothing but destroy things. I think we're a mutation, a blight upon this beautiful earth. It's as if we don't even belong here.
I think some differences/conflicts are unsolvable.......which is fine if we can live apart from each other. But we can't.
Yes, you're right--we're all in it together, which is why we need to figure out how we all can drink out of Gregg's watering hole without killing each other.
You could move, if you're not comfortable with the demographics of your city. Move to Vermont. My DS was dating a black girl and a couple of redneck Vermonters pretty much drove her out of a bar like swatting a fly. I love VT and would live there in a minute, but it's astounding to me, a NJ resident with white minority status, that such homogeneity still exists, and such intolerance still exists. (well, I do believe it--I just don't experience it in my own day-to-day life).
flowerseverywhere
4-30-15, 6:42pm
And there's lots of single white mothers......but they don't tend to have 8 kids that they then ignore.
And I guess I am a racist, since I believe that cultures/peoples from different geographical areas, etc., ARE different.....and very likely in their DNA. And the whole premise of this country is that everyone is the same, and there aren't any differences.
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yes you are racist. So all white single mothers are nurturing and don't have multiple kids and all black single mothers have 8 kids they ignore. You know this for a fact.
And classifying by a geographical region, race, gender as being smarter or dumber. Wow.
I could not respond to some of these posts for a few days because I was so taken aback. I had a po white mama and a po black father and who knows how different I would have been if I wasn't taken out of that environment. So we were taken out of our home, and neither family wanted us and we were put in middle class foster homes. Guess what. All 5 of us put ourselves through college and helped each other and we had five children between the five of us (every one was born after at least two years of marriage) and we took very good care of them. Imagine that. I don't know what would have been if we stayed in a brawling alcoholic home in the poorest section of town. I don't think the outcome would have been the same. Feeling one set of people is better than the other has led to much genocide and ethnic cleansing in this world.
On a lighter note here is my funny stereotyping story. I volunteer in the library Monday afternoons. I know a guy who grew up in the Deep South. He has bad teeth, talks slowly with a southern drawl I can barely understand, but is pretty quiet. I never thought about it, but I would never had pegged him as an extremely intelligent person. Well he saw me today and we started talking about a book he was getting. We are both history fans and he had tons of info on some great authors. He had a stack of books and the librarian joked to him see you in a few days. Apparently he is a voracious reader, has written many published articles on local history and they are always ordering books from other libraries for him. Stereotypes are so easy to form but they can be far from the truth.
Oh, so we should just let criminals run around loose, because the prisons are already too full? I'm for the death penalty for violent repeaters. Whatever the system is for all the others, there must be a flaw in it......and a flaw in the entire approach by this country.
Cathy, you say lots in your,post that I would like to,respond to. Too much for me to do so as I wait to get on a plane in a few minutes. So I'll start with one thought. Perhaps the flaw is in assuming that incarcerating people in a punitive fashion, as we do, (assuming that they survive long enough to actually get to prison without their spine being broken by thug cops) will achieve changes in behavior. After all, what hope does an ex con have of achieving success in our society. Job applications ask if they've been convicted. Yes convicted? No job for you, thank you very much. They can't even vote in some states, to try and change the leadership causing their oppression. What else should they do to express themselves besides rioting? (Not that I think rioting is the answer, merely that I think it's a logical response to their lot in life.)
There is a tired old statement that insanity is repeating the same thing twice and expecting different outcomes. We've tried more and more punitive punishment for criminals. That hasn't worked in reducing recidivism. Perhaps we should stop the insanity and try something different. I'll be honest that I'm not sure what that different thing is. But if I had to guess I'd guess it looks something like the Harlem Children's Zone.
iris lilies
4-30-15, 9:09pm
?... Perhaps the flaw is in assuming that incarcerating people in a punitive fashion, as we do,...will achieve changes in behavior....
There is a tired old statement that insanity is repeating the same thing twice and expecting different outcomes. We've tried more and more punitive punishment for criminals. That hasn't worked in reducing recidivism....
jesus Christ, I have to really wonder about ya'll who apparently don't let live in high crime neighborhoods.
jp, I appreciate perps being locked up for however many moments in order to give my community a freaking rest from their shenanigans.
Go forth and and expound on the nature of criminal rehabilitation and restorative justice and etc. It is the internet, after all. But some of us are real people with communities where we look out for one another against the bad guys. Make no mistake, the bad guys are real. Talk amongst yourselves to solve societal problems, it doesn't hurt anything.
of COURSE prison does not rehabilitate anyone! Throwing whatever amount of money at that problem won't work, just like throwing money at poor families and poor communities doesn't fix the problem.
gimmethesimplelife
4-30-15, 9:17pm
jesus Christ, I have to really wonder about ya'll who apparently don't let live in high crime neighborhoods.
jp, I appreciate perps being locked up for however many moments in order to give my community a freaking rest from their shenanigans.
Go forth and and expound on the nature of criminal rehabilitation and restorative justice and etc. It is the internet, after all. But some of us are real people with communities where we look out for one another against the bad guys. Make no mistake, the bad guys are real. Talk amongst yourselves, it does hurt anything.
of COURSE prison does rehabilitate anyone! Throwing whatever amount of money at that problem won't work, just like throwing money at poor families and poor communities doesn't fix the problem.MMMMMmmmmm.......living in a lower income area as I do - I have just one question for you. Do you not see the police as part of the problem, also? (Notice I did not say the problem, I said part of the problem). I sure do. But I also don't believe the problem is entirely the police and how they behave in lower income neighborhoods. I does take two sides to dance the tango. But this terror of the police that so many low income have? This issue needs to be publicized more heavily around the world - more than it already has been - and then it needs to be addressed and not half assed but addressed for real. I know you are going to say your neighborhood is not like that and I'm glad for you - I really am. Please understand however that not all lower income neighborhoods have positive relations with the police. Rob
iris lilies
4-30-15, 9:51pm
MMMMMmmmmm.......living in a lower income area as I do - I have just one question for you. Do you not see the police as part of the problem, also?
Part of what problem?
ApatheticNoMore
4-30-15, 9:57pm
Dangerous people need to be locked up now. But throwing money at the problem is meant to be, would have to be, a multi-decade approach, alright I could phrase it "investing in the communities" but I'm not much concerned with the framing. It would be a multi decade approach of providing economic opportunities, other needed support etc., a real war on poverty and stick with it over the long haul, and yea deal with issues of police brutality, and other injustices in the criminal justice system as well.
Maybe some criminals could be helped with more opportunities now (I don't actually write off adults, some would respond if the opportunities were better) and maybe some hardened criminals can't be helped, but it would be a focus on long term outcomes as well.
Chances of it happening? A snowdens chance in the u.s., er I mean a snowballs chance in the hot place, a glaciers chance in climate change. Because that's not really how things are done, especially as there's less opportunities for everyone, not enough decent jobs for anyone, so who can bother with multi-generational poverty, when some of the kids of the middle class now work in low paid service jobs. What will probably happen before then is more of the middle class will join the poor, a little closer to the metaphorical if not literal ghetto themselves.
gimmethesimplelife
4-30-15, 10:15pm
Part of what problem?Ummm.....for starters, situations like Ferguson, Baltimore, the fact that in my neighborhood you'd be hard pressed to find anyone willing to cooperate with the police due to fear of the police and the brutality they sometimes stand for.....the fact that the police in general have a (expletive) reputation that precedes them in lower income neighborhoods, the fact that people have been illegally killed and police have gotten away with murder, the fact that police officers have in general for years (though I believe this is starting to change) been shielded from paying consequences for illegal actions/behaviors, the fact that police in general have definitely played their role in the US vs. THEM mentality they both face and feed - need I go on, this is all off the top of my head and there's much more I could add. Rob
I guess what I'm saying is lay some blame on their doorstep, too, they most certainly have earned the blame and then some.
Broken windows > outrage than broken spine. Very sad.
And while we're talking about high crime, can someone post some big color photos of the Wall Street firm that just paid Billions in fines for their financial misdeeds? Not as sexy as a shot of someone stealing toilet paper, but criminals hurting our society nonetheless. I'll never understand the selective outrage.
I could post lovely pictures of children dying from malnutrition, lack of access to safe drinking water, and disease in Africa too, if it'd make you feel any better at "selective outrage".
That wasn't the topic of this thread though.
Do we have to parade our outrage at all the world's injustices and wrongs before we can legitimately comment on any single one of them?
situations like Ferguson, Baltimore, the fact that in my neighborhood you'd be hard pressed to find anyone willing to cooperate with the police
C'mon Rob, you can do better, can't you? A thug resisting arrest, an unknown cause of death, and a ****ed up dysfunctional neighborhood proves what exactly?
I'll grant you the attention level has increased, but we are still waiting for the great example of the Big Problem. I'm sure there are problems, but there always will be. What exactly do you want to change (yeah, yeah other than pensions)? My guess is it isn't anything that people aren't trying to do already, however imperfectly.
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-15, 12:10am
Broken windows > outrage than broken spine. Very sad.
And while we're talking about high crime, can someone post some big color photos of the Wall Street firm that just paid Billions in fines for their financial misdeeds? Not as sexy as a shot of someone stealing toilet paper, but criminals hurting our society nonetheless. I'll never understand the selective outrage.+1 I couldn't agree with you more, Lainey and I love the words "selective outrage". It sure has seemed to me since the age of 14 on that some people in this society get a free pass and can get away with (in some cases, quite literally) murder and then others do something small and stupid when they are young and pay for it the rest of their lives. Where is the outrage for the latter? Why is there no sense of proportion, no sense of the actual scope of fallout of misdeeds of those who get the free pass? I've lived most of my life in this country except for short stretches elsewhere and this is something I will never understand. I've always found this very troubling and very hypocritical of America, too. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-15, 12:14am
C'mon Rob, you can do better, can't you? A thug resisting arrest, an unknown cause of death, and a ****ed up dysfunctional neighborhood proves what exactly?
I'll grant you the attention level has increased, but we are still waiting for the great example of the Big Problem. I'm sure there are problems, but you there always will be. The big picture isn't so bad.Please look at the recent events in North Charleston, SC, as an example. Would you not agree in that case there was a problem, that the police officer involved went too far? North Charleston is not an event in a vacuum. You can rah rah and cheer for America all you want - I think it's great that someone is still doing it, in a way - but this incident in South Carolina is not isolated and unusual. Rob
I was just reading a Wikipedia article concerning the series of Race Riots Of 1919, something I had never heard of before. According to the article, the riots were instigated by whites, as part of a backlash against black laborers who had emigrated into cities to fill manufacturing jobs created by the War effort(WWI). After the war, returning veterans and the general public expressed great resentment toward these black workers. This resulted in much violence, and numerous lynchings. I will report back, when I learn more about this very troubled time in American history. Also, more than a month ago, I posted on Facebook a youtube video entitled: Kala U-Bass Richard Coughlin plays Whats Going On. Something like that. Anyway, a bass ukulele overdub of Marvin Gaye's classic song, from 1971. I'm not much for lyrics, but they are as relevant as ever, in this one. Beats the hxck out of stoopid, trite overwrought stuff like "Lady Madonna". OTOH, maybe not. Check it out. It is unfortunate that Marvin Gaye's father shot him to death in a 1984 family dispute. Pretty crazy. Makes me wonder: what's goin' on?
Please look at the recent events in North Charleston, SC, as an example. Would you not agree in that case there was a problem, that the police officer involved went too far? North Charleston is not an event in a vacuum.
Yes and no. I think we have all agreed that the individual acts of the officer are probably a problem, but the overall system seems to be working OK. The guy was fired and charged with murder. Not sure what else you want them to do at this point.
Here's the funny thing about the violent protests you like- people see the craziness in Baltimore, and maybe rather than thinking "wow, those poor people are really upset, we have to do something to help them" there are probably just as many who think "OMG, those people are animals, we really need to support the cops who are putting themselves at risk dealing with those thugs."
Which in turn probably shapes perceptions of how justified the police are when they have to resort to force. A lot of folks are likely to decide it's a valuable thin blue line, or at worst just the lesser of two evils.
You can rah rah and cheer for America all you want - I think it's great that someone is still doing it, in a way - but this incident in South Carolina is not isolated and unusual.
I don't see any rah-rah-ing, just don't share your dystopian ideals. I would not want someone as a neighbor who refused to help in a crisis, would not engage with public services, and constantly denigrated the people who are doing a hard and dangerous job for crap wages. People need to obey the rules and no one is above the law so if the guy in SC is guilty let's see if he gets punished. But I don't see it as a reason to gleefully undermine the guys who are doing a good job.
I was just reading a Wikipedia article concerning the series of Race Riots Of 1919, something I had never heard of before. According to the article, the riots were instigated by whites, as part of a backlash against black laborers who had emigrated into cities to fill manufacturing jobs created by the War effort(WWI). After the war, returning veterans and the general public expressed great resentment toward these black workers. This resulted in much violence, and numerous lynchings. I will report back, when I learn more about this very troubled time in American history. Also, more than a month ago, I posted on Facebook a youtube video entitled: Kala U-Bass Richard Coughlin plays Whats Going On. Something like that. Anyway, a bass ukulele overdub of Marvin Gaye's classic song, from 1971. I'm not much for lyrics, but they are as relevant as ever, in this one. Beats the hxck out of stoopid, trite overwrought stuff like "Lady Madonna". OTOH, maybe not. Check it out. It is unfortunate that Marvin Gaye's father shot him to death in a 1984 family dispute. Pretty crazy. Makes me wonder: what's goin' on?
You got me there, Packy. Just read the What's Going On lyrics, and they do beat the heck out of Lady Madonna's lyrics. Very relevant for today indeed.
I'm not sure there's a clearer picture of our victim mentality than prison. It fascinates me that someone would view it, first and foremost, as a rehabilitation mechanism. I always viewed it as a way to protect the rest of us from criminals who hurt someone at least once and are (statistically) likely to do it again. If they find their religion while they're locked up, great. I'm happy for them. If not, I don't care. I want the rapist kept away from my daughters and the banksters kept away from my mom's IRA. We can obviously expound on that second part in a different 12 page thread, but... The part of the criminal justice system that's broken isn't the <1% of the cops that step over the edge, its the courts that send a kid dealing a dime bag away for years while a crooked fund manager who bilked billions out of retirement accounts gets to work on his short game in Florida. If that. I will grant Rob that there are some disturbing trends in law enforcement, mainly the militarization of municipal police forces, but overall a few broken cops doesn't equate to a broken system.
This comment is about the prison system.....not the Baltimore issue........
Seems like DNA evidence has let us be so much more certain of someone's guilt or innocence concerning the crimes involved. I know a lot of you don't believe in the death penalty. I guess you think it's too "civilized" or "inhumane". I tend to liken violent criminals to cancers. Why would we give cancers rights, or feel humane towards them, when they are trying to kill off the host? Why spend the energy of the healthy defense mechanisms of the body, to keep them at bay, or housed in some corner of the body? There are lots of reasons that keep our prisons filled, but don't you think we could empty some of them out by getting rid of the cancers and not just tolerating them and caring for them? I think keeping them alive in prisons weakens the society's Immune system (so to speak). We have to face up to the fact that all our tolerance and niceness is leading us down a very scary path. We are putting the health of our societal body at risk. And I'm referring to all the crime in America today, not just about the death penalty, but how we handle crimes (or not).
I'm referring to the outrage on this same forum about the Occupy movement. Remember? Seems many posters here were very upset about some sleeping bags and tents left behind in Zuccotti Park, but the level of outrage expressed about the Wall Street thieves? Eh, not so much. Selective outrage. Strange.
and CathyA - "niceness" is not a word I'd use to describe our criminal justice system.
Lainey......by niceness, I was referring to alot of people's feelings towards the death penalty. It's easy to feel like you wouldn't want to hurt anyone, when you don't have to deal with the carnage/heinousness/brutality/sickness of the offenders.
For what it's worth, I've been an RN for 18 years, 15 of them in psychiatric nursing. There's a lot of overlap between psych and criminal justice. I've worked in a ~500 bed regional jail. I've worked in a facility for court ordered mentally ill, some of whom have rape and murder histories. I've had profane threats yelled in my face numerous times. No I don't like it. However - I'm still against the death penalty.
We have arguably the most punitive, least rehabilitative prison system of all the developed countries, and we have the highest incarceration rate. Our approach doesn't seem to be working. Capital punishment is forever; mistakes once made cannot be corrected (see the Innocence Project).
ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#/media/File:Prisoner_population_rate_world_map.svg
Prosecutor announced murder charges this morning. Hard to evaluate with so little facts made public but looks like we will get another public trial.
I used to support the death penalty and now I don't. There are a couple reasons...
1. The process is too politicized and too inconsistent. Death penalty cases are brought mostly in jurisdictions that can afford multi-million dollar trials and have a supply of prosecutors and defenders (public and otherwise) seeking notoriety from high profile cases. Commit the same crime in an area with less resources and less media coverage and you would likely face a plea bargain rather than death.
2. There is too much potential for discrepancy between beyond a reasonable doubt and beyond any doubt. If the punishment is to be absolute the conviction better be as well, but in most cases that isn't possible. DNA evidence is a wonderful tool for helping bridge that gap, but its not foolproof. Or tamper proof.
3. As much as I feel there are people who's crimes are so heinous that they deserve to die, I don't believe that an eye for an eye really evens the score. IMO, that response does more to bring those rendering judgment down to the criminal level than it does to keep them on that precious high moral ground.
4. As convenient as it is to view criminals as a cancer, they're not. Cancer cells aren't sentient beings. Enough said.
iris lilies
5-1-15, 11:40am
I used to support the death penalty and now I don't. There are a couple reasons...
1. The process is too politicized and too inconsistent. Death penalty cases are brought mostly in jurisdictions that can afford multi-million dollar trials and have a supply of prosecutors and defenders (public and otherwise) seeking notoriety from high profile cases. Commit the same crime in an area with less resources and less media coverage and you would likely face a plea bargain rather than death.
2. There is too much potential for discrepancy between beyond a reasonable doubt and beyond any doubt. If the punishment is to be absolute the conviction better be as well, but in most cases that isn't possible. DNA evidence is a wonderful tool for helping bridge that gap, but its not foolproof. Or tamper proof.
3. As much as I feel there are people who's crimes are so heinous that they deserve to die, I don't believe that an eye for an eye really evens the score. IMO, that response does more to bring those rendering judgment down to the criminal level than it does to keep them on that precious high moral ground.
4. As convenient as it is to view criminals as a cancer, they're not. Cancer cells aren't sentient beings. Enough said.
i support the death penalty like the Israelis. Reserve it for the most heinous criminals, like Eichmann. Everyone else--not so much for all the reasons you list.
so I want to keep it on the books but I don,t care if it is actually used, or seldom used.
You're absolutely right that the death penalty (like most sentences) is not applied equitably. Witness the Green River Killer, who killed an acknowledged 49 women, and the BTK Killer,who was charged with ten murders. Both are white, both are serving life sentences--while minority offenders who shoot liquor store clerks routinely get the death penalty. And Robert Durst, admitted killer and millionaire, got off completely.
I know a lot of you don't believe in the death penalty. I guess you think it's too "civilized" or "inhumane".
I'm one of them, although "civilized" or "inhumane" doesn't enter into my thought process. I have no problem with a life being taken in defense of oneself or another but once the active threat is no longer present, that's another story. I don't like the idea that a government may execute its citizens.
We have arguably the most punitive, least rehabilitative prison system of all the developed countries, and we have the highest incarceration rate. I have no problem with that either. I hold individuals responsible for their actions and most every criminal is aware of the consequences of their misdeeds. I think prison should be punitive, leave rehabilitation to individuals interested enough to pursue it on their own.
ApatheticNoMore
5-1-15, 11:51am
I could care less about punishing criminals (and the brutal conditions in prison are that. I mean does anyone arguing they aren't brutal enough, have even a passing familiarity with the issue?).
I see locking people up when necessary strictly as something that sometimes needs to be done to protect the rest of society from them. Conditions in prison being as brutal as they are isn't necessary.
Although I'm opposed to it anyway, reserving the death penalty for only the worst criminals isn't something that's ever been tried in the U.S.. You have states without the death penalty - good for them, states who use it frequently that end up with a bunch of misuses and innocents killed, and states that use it infrequently where it ends up being a giant never ending money suck because they are so reluctant to use it and there are so many appeals, that it is in no way preferable to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.
jesus Christ, I have to really wonder about ya'll who apparently don't let live in high crime neighborhoods.
jp, I appreciate perps being locked up for however many moments in order to give my community a freaking rest from their shenanigans.
Go forth and and expound on the nature of criminal rehabilitation and restorative justice and etc. It is the internet, after all. But some of us are real people with communities where we look out for one another against the bad guys. Make no mistake, the bad guys are real. Talk amongst yourselves to solve societal problems, it doesn't hurt anything.
of COURSE prison does not rehabilitate anyone! Throwing whatever amount of money at that problem won't work, just like throwing money at poor families and poor communities doesn't fix the problem.
It really must be sad to have such a pessimistic outlook on the world. And to live in such a dangerous neighborhood. Maybe you need to move.
Feel free to look up the Harlem Children's Zone's concepts and what successes they've had. Or don't and continue to bitch and moan about how black people are just horrible down to the core of their being and will never change. To alter another tired phrase, we all can choose to be as hopeless as we want to be.
When I wrote that post yesterday I actually, believe it or not, tended to agree with you that once someone was in the criminal justice system getting them out of it for any length of time was highly unlikely. Then on the plane last night I listened to a recent This American Life episode where they did a story about a program in Richmond CA to try and reduce recidivism. The city looked at the stats and found that, unlike your perception that there are lots and lots of really bad guys out there (and probably theirs as well) only 17 people, in a city of just over 100,000, were responsible for almost all of the shooting crimes in the city. They created a program to target just those guys, the worst of the worst, and now years and several groups of guys later, 80% of the people who went through the program haven't been arrested again. I'd encourage you to go find and listen to the podcast, but again, I realize you may not want to burst your pessimistic bubble.
The thing about these programs, the Harlem Children's Zone, and the Richmond program, is that they take time to see results, and lots of money and effort before results are seen. In this era of CEO's only worrying about the next quarter's results, and politicians only worrying about the next election, it's difficult to get the support to try things like this. The alternative, though, isn't cheap either. How many 10's of thousands of dollars does it cost to have someone go in and out of prison for their whole life? And if we can do something to alter the course of that life and make it better, I personally think we have a moral obligation to do so because it's the right thing to do. Not only will it make their lives better, but it will make everyone else's better as well.
I would think for the number of for profit prisons out there, that the businesses profiting would want to do what they can to insure repeat business. I don't think it would be in their best interests to rehabilitate or dissuade prisoners from coming back, and it would be to do just the opposite.
i support the death penalty like the Israelis. Reserve it for the most heinous criminals, like Eichmann. Everyone else--not so much for all the reasons you list.
so I want to keep it on the books but I don,t care if it is actually used, or seldom used.
That's pretty much the path I took to get where I am now, only I started to wonder what difference it made if the Eichmanns of the world were dead by our hands or rotting eternally in a cement hole? For me the only difference was the 'by our hands' part. I didn't really like that so much so decided it wasn't worth the ethical hand wringing. And the only problem I have with keeping it on the books is that when such things are set aside for the most extreme cases we always seem to come up with more extremes than we thought we would so we eventually end up right where we were before. Ask anyone in Texas.
The ACLU would have a heyday with it, but we could always turn those extreme criminals into a version of "The Truman Show". You know, put their whole incarcerated lives on camera for their victims to watch. Or better yet, put the victims free lives on a feed into the cells whenever the victims want to switch it on. Just indulging in a little sick fantasy version of justice...
I would think for the number of for profit prisons out there, that the businesses profiting would want to do what they can to insure repeat business. I don't think it would be in their best interests to rehabilitate or dissuade prisoners from coming back, and it would be to do just the opposite.
That business model, IMO, is a HUGE problem that should probably just be eliminated.
I'm one of them, although "civilized" or "inhumane" doesn't enter into my thought process. I have no problem with a life being taken in defense of oneself or another but once the active threat is no longer present, that's another story. I don't like the idea that a government may execute its citizens.
This is my position as well. I am against the death penalty because I do not want to grant the government the power to coldly and methodically kill humans in my name.
I carry a gun and a knife every day. I teach people to kill. I have killed. I'm fine with using lethal force in immediate defense of self or others. But I don't think it is moral to initiate the use of force. A prisoner in a cell is no immediate threat, not at a level that would morally justify using lethal force.
Just one right-winger's opinion.
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-15, 3:25pm
I have some good news. The eix officers involved in the Baltimore issue are now facing murder charges. It remains to be seen what will materialize as a result of these charges, but at least they have been charged. I'm just so so so glad that social media, the media in general, and these protests are gaining traction in the sense that some officers are finding out they are not above the law. It's very sad to me that situations like Baltimore have to happen to make police officers accountable to the law - how does one forgive America for this? I really don't know - but at least these protests are working.
I'd be willing to bet that until such a date as the police no longer cross the line, more cities will burn and more rioting and looting will happen. More images of what America is really about will be sent around the world via social media, further shaping worldwide negative opinions of the United States. I know that when I travel overseas later this year I will pose as a Canadian and sprinkle my conversation with a few ehs, just like I did back in 1987 (but the reasons for doing such now seem much more pressing). I certainly don't want to be judged for the wrongs of America as a tourist - especially since my basic take is going to match the negative take of America overseas. Rob
Well, here's some more trivia: Baltimore had a fire in 1904, that caused approx. $150, 000,000 in destruction in 1904 Dollars. Also, by 1970, the Baltimore population was nearly 46% Black. The last riots of any significance were on April 4, 1968, and were attributed to indignation over the murder of Martin Luther King. So, maybe it would be fair to assume that them folks the other day was jes' carryin' on the proud traditions of their fine city.
So a protest about every fifty years--I'd say Baltimore has shown great restraint.
The people responsible for Mr. Gray's death are in custody. I guess they forgot to plant a weapon on him. Sloppy police work. Now for the trial.
I have some good news. The eix officers involved in the Baltimore issue are now facing murder charges. No the six officers are not facing murder charges. One officer is facing murder charges.
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-15, 4:15pm
No the six officers are not facing murder charges. One officer is facing murder charges.You are right...I just reread the article online. Six officers in total face charges but the charges vary per officer. At least if these charges stick there will be no more pension accumulation. And if the charges stick it will serve as incentive for similar situations when the police cross the line.....very sad that rioting and burning and looting seem to be required (though this was not the case in SC, I'll grant that) to force police officers to be accountable to the law they are sworn to uphold. But it takes what it takes and I saw through America years ago. It takes what it takes. Rob
I have some good news. The eix officers involved in the Baltimore issue are now facing murder charges. It remains to be seen what will materialize as a result of these charges, but at least they have been charged. I'm just so so so glad that social media, the media in general, and these protests are gaining traction in the sense that some officers are finding out they are not above the law. It's very sad to me that situations like Baltimore have to happen to make police officers accountable to the law - how does one forgive America for this? I really don't know - but at least these protests are working.
That's what scares me about social media. In the Ferguson incident, I was truly afraid the officer would be tried in order to quell the mis-directed social media outrage. I wonder, with less evidence, if these 6 officers aren't being sacrificed to accomplish a social goal rather than justice?
gimmethesimplelife
5-1-15, 4:37pm
That's what scares me about social media. In the Ferguson incident, I was truly afraid the officer would be tried in order to quell the mis-directed social media outrage. I wonder, with less evidence, if these 6 officers aren't being sacrificed to accomplish a social goal rather than justice?Mr Gray died in yet non disclosed circumstances while under the custody of the Baltimore Police. Mr Gray was a human being - his life does and did matter. If social media can bring police officers who act against the law back down to earth to be accountable to the law and to be punished by the law for their illegal behavior(s), exactly how is social media a bad thing? I'd agree that America is pathetic in the sense that police officers to date have often enjoyed non accountability and I'd agree on a stance of lifetime non-forgiveness towards America for this - that said, should social media not be a thing of joy for leveling the playing field a bit and giving hope for justice to the disenfranchised?
I'm afraid my take on this one is a 180 from yours, Alan. Which is fine, everyone gets to believe as they wish in my book - but after what I have seen and experienced, there will be no changing my mind on this one. I'm just grateful that the residents of Baltimore are at least (partly due to the pressure of social media) now worth the human dignity and human decency of seeing these officers tried and potentially facing time locked up with no more pension accumulation. Sad that it took social media and rioting and burning and looting to accomplish this - I place the blame for this at the doorstep of this citizenship - but as I said before, it takes what it takes. Lastly, without the presence of social media, I believe it would have been less likely that these officers were brought before the law to be held accountable. Rob
Yah. Human Being. We must have compassion. Adolf Hillltter, who passed away at just 56 years old, 70 years ago, was a human being. So too, was General Tojo, a human being. But, he was hanged. Both men were young boys at one time, probably their mothers' pride and joy. I just read a news story about an incident in Baltimore that occurred several weeks ago. A man, 51 years old & Caucasian, was out walking his dog. He was accosted by 3 or 4 teenagers, negroid; who then shot him as he begged for his life. See? That did not get very much coverage; there were no riots fomented by white activists protesting his death. I kinda think we've all moved beyond that stuff. No lynchings for quite awhile, now. But, anyway---sure hope gimmee here is not on the receiving end of some abuse by black thugs. But, on the other hand--it might be good for him, simply because it might serve as a reality check.
That's what scares me about social media. In the Ferguson incident, I was truly afraid the officer would be tried in order to quell the mis-directed social media outrage. I wonder, with less evidence, if these 6 officers aren't being sacrificed to accomplish a social goal rather than justice?Probably so.
Mr Gray died in yet non disclosed circumstances while under the custody of the Baltimore Police. Mr Gray was a human being - his life does and did matter. If social media can bring police officers who act against the law back down to earth to be accountable to the law and to be punished by the law for their illegal behavior(s), exactly how is social media a bad thing? I'd agree that America is pathetic in the sense that police officers to date have often enjoyed non accountability and I'd agree on a stance of lifetime non-forgiveness towards America for this - that said, should social media not be a thing of joy for leveling the playing field a bit and giving hope for justice to the disenfranchised?
If you and your social media friends had your way earlier this year, at about the same stage in the investigation of Michael Brown's death, the police officer in Ferguson would now be sitting on death row. All the moral outrage without facts to back them up, although promoted by media, both social and mainstream, are a danger to society.
Teacher Terry
5-1-15, 6:18pm
The facts that are coming out in the Gray case is not going to help the cops. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions including the cops. Cops choose their profession & if they just want to kill people try joining the military. Having spent my life in human service work you can not paint all poor people with the same wide brush.
iris lilies
5-2-15, 12:50am
It really must be sad to have such a pessimistic outlook on the world. And to live in such a dangerous neighborhood. Maybe you need to move.
Pessimistic? More like realistic. Thanks for your concern, but I don't see why I should let hoodlums force me out. I also don't see why I have to spend much of my own life energy figuring out how to fix them if it's not something that interests me.
I do live in a crime ridden area, as any view of comparative crime stats would show, and I mention it only to establish my creds as having a stake in how criminals are treated.
Feel free to look up the Harlem Children's Zone's concepts and what successes they've had. Or don't and continue to bitch and moan about how black people are just horrible down to the core of their being and will never change. To alter another tired phrase, we all can choose to be as hopeless as we want to be.
When I wrote that post yesterday I actually, believe it or not, tended to agree with you that once someone was in the criminal justice system getting them out of it for any length of time was highly unlikely. Then on the plane last night I listened to a recent This American Life episode where they did a story about a program in Richmond CA to try and reduce recidivism. The city looked at the stats and found that, unlike your perception that there are lots and lots of really bad guys out there (and probably theirs as well) only 17 people, in a city of just over 100,000, were responsible for almost all of the shooting crimes in the city. They created a program to target just those guys, the worst of the worst, and now years and several groups of guys later, 80% of the people who went through the program haven't been arrested again. I'd encourage you to go find and listen to the podcast, but again, I realize you may not want to burst your pessimistic bubble.
I never made any statement about how many criminals there are and obviously l didn't say "black people are just horrible down to the core of their being and will never change." Whoah, that's a lot of junk you are attributing to me. Yep, I don't think that Nanny G throwing money at social problems always, or even most of the time, brings human services up to optimum levels. I have known 2 kids who came out of jail and who stayed on the straight and narrow, but they had families with means who were able to focus them on job/living clean and provided support for same.
One single bad actor can cause troublesome events for a lot of people over a long time, and that's why locking them up is important. It's relief for me and people in my neighborhood.
I guarantee that if you lived and hung out in the places I do, you'd be relieved and happy when cops catch these shooters and killers and put them away. I'm sure you'd also continue to be interested in finding a better solution as you are now. There are many people who live here who lament the current "system" while also supporting police in catching criminals. So be it, type on the internet all you like about Ira Glass expounding on a solution. I will eventually hear this TAL show since I hear most all of them. But I want to grow lilies and iris and lead a life uninterrupted by criminals. When you and Ira solve it all, let me know.
I am in no way removing the police's responsibilities in these cases, but can you imagine, day in and day out, dealing with people who are always committing crimes/acting just plain stupid/being disrespectful/hating you just because you're wearing a uniform/just because you're white? I imagine some of these incidents present the last straw to these police.
Alan.....it sure makes you wonder who the sacrificial lambs will be......to keep the "peace"....
gimmethesimplelife
5-2-15, 7:48am
I am in no way removing the police's responsibilities in these cases, but can you imagine, day in and day out, dealing with people who are always committing crimes/acting just plain stupid/being disrespectful/hating you just because you're wearing a uniform/just because you're white? I imagine some of these incidents present the last straw to these police.You know, Cathy, I read your post here and I have been doing some thinking and I can see your point. I live in an area where the police and the neighborhood are not sympatico to put in nicely. Day in day out we are fed up with the police and the danger they represent - but I'll be honest, I've never put the shoe on the other foot on this one. Why shouldn't they be fed up day in and day out being feared and hated, having people refuse to cooperate - even though I personally believe these are valid behaviors - why wouldn't they get fed up with it all? Especially if they are in it for the right reasons. You have really made me think here and I Thank You for that. Rob
I am in no way removing the police's responsibilities in these cases, but can you imagine, day in and day out, dealing with people who are always committing crimes/acting just plain stupid/being disrespectful/hating you just because you're wearing a uniform/just because you're white? I imagine some of these incidents present the last straw to these police.
That's actually the same justification the rioters could use.
To be clear, when someone commits a crime I think they should be in jail. The point I'm trying to make in my posts is that I think there's a better solution to crime than spending $40,000 per year, or whatever the amount is, locking people up in a for profit prison off and on for the rest of their life. Far better to invest that money up front when they are young children and teach them the tools to succeed instead of waiting for them to fail and then spending the money.
Pessimistic? More like realistic. Thanks for your concern, but I don't see why I should let hoodlums force me out. I also don't see why I have to spend much of my own life energy figuring out how to fix them if it's not something that interests me.
I do live in a crime ridden area, as any view of comparative crime stats would show, and I mention it only to establish my creds as having a stake in how criminals are treated.
I never made any statement about how many criminals there are and obviously l didn't say "black people are just horrible down to the core of their being and will never change." Whoah, that's a lot of junk you are attributing to me. Yep, I don't think that Nanny G throwing money at social problems always, or even most of the time, brings human services up to optimum levels. I have known 2 kids who came out of jail and who stayed on the straight and narrow, but they had families with means who were able to focus them on job/living clean and provided support for same.
One single bad actor can cause troublesome events for a lot of people over a long time, and that's why locking them up is important. It's relief for me and people in my neighborhood.
I guarantee that if you lived and hung out in the places I do, you'd be relieved and happy when cops catch these shooters and killers and put them away. I'm sure you'd also continue to be interested in finding a better solution as you are now. There are many people who live here who lament the current "system" while also supporting police in catching criminals. So be it, type on the internet all you like about Ira Glass expounding on a solution. I will eventually hear this TAL show since I hear most all of them. But I want to grow lilies and iris and lead a life uninterrupted by criminals. When you and Ira solve it all, let me know.
Iris, my apologies, I was intending to respond to CathyA and you separately and instead responded only to you. My comments were intended to be a response to her thoughts on DNA.
Far better to invest that money up front when they are young children and teach them the tools to succeed instead of waiting for them to fail and then spending the money.
Money may be a necessary ingredient but it is not sufficient. This is slightly off your topic but I think intimately related.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/opinion/david-brooks-the-nature-of-poverty.html?_r=0
Lately it seems as though every few months theres another urban riot and the nation turns its attention to urban poverty. And in the midst of every storm, there are people crying out that we should finally get serious about this issue. This time it was Jon Stewart who spoke for many when he said (http://thedailyshow.cc.com/extended-interviews/69wmkr/exclusive-george-stephanopoulos-extended-interview): And you just wonder sometimes if were spending a trillion dollars to rebuild Afghanistans schools, like, we cant build a little taste down Baltimore way. Like is that whats really going on?
The audience applauded loudly, and its a nice sentiment, but its not really relevant.
The problem is not lack of attention, and its not mainly lack of money. Since 1980 federal antipoverty spending has exploded. As Robert Samuelson of The Washington Post has pointed out (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/robert-j-samuelson-how-we-won--and-lost--the-war-on-poverty/2014/01/12/9bf4696e-7a24-11e3-b1c5-739e63e9c9a7_story.html), in 2013 the federal government spent nearly $14,000 per poor person. If you simply took that money and handed it to the poor, a family of four would have a household income roughly twice the poverty rate.
Yet over the last 30 years the poverty rate has scarcely changed.
...
Saying we should just spend more doesnt really cut it. Whats needed is a phase shift in how we think about poverty. Renewal efforts in Sandtown-Winchester prioritized bricks and mortar. But the real barriers to mobility are matters of social psychology, the quality of relationships in a home and a neighborhood that either encourage or discourage responsibility, future-oriented thinking, and practical ambition.
...
In a fantastic interview that David Simon of The Wire gave to Bill Keller for The Marshall Project (https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish), he describes that, even in poorest Baltimore, there once were informal rules of behavior governing how cops interacted with citizens when theyd drag them in and when they wouldnt, what curse words you could say to a cop and what you couldnt. But then the code dissolved. The informal guardrails of life were gone, and all was arbitrary harshness.
Thats happened across many social spheres in schools, families and among neighbors. Individuals are left without the norms that middle-class people take for granted. It is phenomenally hard for young people in such circumstances to guide themselves.
Yes, jobs are necessary, but if you live in a neighborhood, as Gray did, where half the high school students dont bother to show up for school on a given day, then the problems go deeper.
The world is waiting for a thinker who can describe poverty through the lens of social psychology. Until the invisible bonds of relationships are repaired, life for too many will be nasty, brutish, solitary and short.
I never said just give people money.
Yes, you're right--we're all in it together, which is why we need to figure out how we all can drink out of Gregg's watering hole without killing each other.
You could move, if you're not comfortable with the demographics of your city. Move to Vermont. My DS was dating a black girl and a couple of redneck Vermonters pretty much drove her out of a bar like swatting a fly. I love VT and would live there in a minute, but it's astounding to me, a NJ resident with white minority status, that such homogeneity still exists, and such intolerance still exists. (well, I do believe it--I just don't experience it in my own day-to-day life).
Wow, I'm replying to my own comment because here is a study (http://patch.com/new-jersey/baskingridge/and-most-racist-place-america-iscloser-you-think?utm_source=alert-breakingnews&utm_medium=email&utm_term=community%20corner&utm_campaign=alert) that completely contradicts what I just said: This just popped up in my email. It says that New Jersey is very racist
and it also says that VT is not.
iris lilies
5-2-15, 10:52am
Iris, my apologies, I was intending to respond to CathyA and you separately and instead responded only to you. My comments were intended to be a response to her thoughts on DNA.
No problem Jp.
I never said just give people money.
No one said you did. Great, now that we have that out of the way, the point of what I posted was that it obviously takes more than money, but the intangibles are really hard to figure out. It's the same mess for crime and jobs that have both been brought up in this thread. So far no one has found a good solution, which is why we end up with the default of locking them up.
Re linked here if you missed it: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/opinion/david-brooks-the-nature-of-poverty.html?_r=0
ApatheticNoMore
5-2-15, 1:27pm
There's not enough jobs now, look at labor force participation rates since 2008, down down down. That's working age people not working. Some of it may be be people getting more education and starting work much later. But no I don't believe everyone just decided to become a housewife or retired early. You could look at other numbers that are more optimistic (I suspect more gamed). Yes people in the ghetto may be more trapped in poverty (although income mobility in general in the u.s. is pretty low) so there are trapping factors there, I'm quite sure there's some degree of racism as well.
So with no jobs, what's even the point? But there are other problems than jobs. Yea there are some non-profits, often government funded, that try to deal with childhood abuse and so on, help abusive families not be so, teach better ways for parents to deal with their problems than abuse, provide mental health, help troubled kids, it's of course aimed at the family level. Of course dysfunctional families cut across income levels, but the poor need more financial subsidy for mental health care. That's one aspect. Maybe some of the government money and increased spending on poverty, although you may not directly see it, is going to this now (oh how horrible /sarc). Really if so it seems to me an incredibly positive development then for human welfare, even if there's still too few jobs. This is a huge part of the quality of the family relationship.
The problems do go deeper at the schools where half the kids fail to show up, the kids are often all from a different father, they live in neighborhoods that sometimes look like they were bombed where dogs run feral down the streets etc.., utter neglect.
A lot of middle class or wealthier background can't be reduced to norms either (at least if we interpret the phrase to be morals, however if we interpret the phrase to encompass much more practical heuristics then maybe - the term seems too ambiguous to use). Because a lot is just practical knowledge, there's some really obvious stuff, if your social circle is middle class you will get advice on finding middle class jobs say (oh you might also be able to directly network to one of course, but even without that). Such practical stuff isn't picked up by brains in vats taking courses in moral philosophy. Are people individuals or nodes in a network of relationships? Both of course. But the latter usually gets short shrift.
Better adjustment to mainstream modern American society sometimes strikes me as "well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" (the lunatics who think they have it all figured out because their bank account says so - counting their worthiness in $ signs- a sure a sign of barking mad insanity). But clearly generational poverty isn't an optimum mode of being either.
Great post, ANM.
On another note, I'm so happy Bernie Sanders is running for President. We all know that he doesn't have a chance in hell of winning, but I wonder what will happen if he gets the HUGE groundswell of support from the grassroots, which I'm eagerly anticipating. At least the run will provide a platform to address some of these endemic issues that need to be addressed, and he almost definitely won't be in pockets of the moneychangers. I've donated my $15--so I'm counted among the many whose small contributions have given him a remarkable $1.5M start in the first 24 hours of his campaign.
flowerseverywhere
5-3-15, 7:36am
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/02/us/lord-of-the-flies-baltimore/index.html
here is a fascinating article written by a man who grew up in a different Baltimore, and he talks about the absence of older men in the community and its effect.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/02/us/lord-of-the-flies-baltimore/index.html
here is a fascinating article written by a man who grew up in a different Baltimore, and he talks about the absence of older men in the community and its effect.
That was good. But I'm not sure where it leads. I know in my city they spent millions building public recreation facilities a few years ago. It was a total bust. The facilities either went unused or became unsafe.
I liked his perpective, but there was one thing that jumped out- when he quoted the guy who said "they won't educate you, but they will incarcerate you." Really? I think the other article says Baltimore has the second highest spending per student, something like $15k per. If students don't show up, what are the teachers supposed to do?
We had Abbott vs. Burke in NJ, in which the State ruled it unconstitutional that 28 districts received vast inequalities of funding, basically because of our crazy way of funding the school system through property taxes. So funding was required to fill big gaps in the inequality of the system. Christie cut back the funding, but later on, again, the State said that the funding cuts caused "irreparable harm" to the students and mandated a restoration of funding.
I don't think JUST money is the answer, though. How much better now are Paterson and Newark and Camden? But in another post, bae mentioned Jonathan Kozol--I read his book Savage Inequalities, and it's simply not fair that some districts get the best resources, while inner city, poor kids are lucky to get textbooks that are less than 20 years old and desks that have 4 legs, and a host of other things that we middle class folk take for granted.
However, in addition, the schools need the support of the community. They need parents who care and show up for parent-teacher conferences. Parents who help with homework. Parents who encourage higher education. Unfortunately, all too often, they don't get that parental support--life for a parent or parents is too stressful if you have a life like Miss Cellane described where you are working 60 hours a week and still can't cover the basics.
I also read the book Small Victories (http://www.amazon.com/Small-Victories-Teacher-Students-School/sim/0060920874/2?o=9) by Samuel G. Freedman which is another sad story of education in poor neighborhoods. The take-away I got from that book is, you can plant all the seeds of hope you want as a teacher, but what really gets watered in poor neighborhoods is despair.
ApatheticNoMore
5-3-15, 12:33pm
Won't educate you, I do wonder how much education he hoped for? Through college? Yea that's not free.
But as for K-12, I may wonder if money could solve it now even if it was given because school districts self-segregate by class (and to a lesser degree by race). Period. There's serious path dependency at a certain point, even if some of the self-segregation was originally based on lesser resources (and though resources and getting their kids the best is probably a much stronger motive, there's probably some influence of racism).
This is the way it works here: parents who are concerned with their children's education (this usually looks like overly concerned but it's the way the game is played) try to buy a home in a "good public school district", that is unless they've decided on the private school route. Homes in such districts will sell for a pretty premium. If you ain't got the doe, ray, me - you are out of the running for a house in a "good school district" unless you can manage to rent there for less or something. So the better off parents that care about education cluster in certain areas, whereas the parents who don't care or no matter how much they care can not afford the price of admission live elsewhere. Those parents in better school districts have great advantage in terms of how much peer support their kids will have for education, sometimes peer influence overrides the best intentioned parental support. It's a class system, that self-perpetuates. It's so obvious equality of opportunity doesn't exist from the absolute obsession in middle class parent talk of "good school districts" (this is different than saying absolutely zero opportunity exists for those in less good school districts, that depends on parental support and a lot of other factors, it's merely saying it's not equal).
What about teachers? Hmm, differ greatly probably. Some I've met won't work particularly bad schools, in fact they aim for the much better schools. In the very worst schools, most quit within or before a year. Some heroes tough it out, but know that self-sacrificing heroism is probably unsustainable over the long term as they feel beyond burned out.
Interesting take on some of Baltimore's issues: the absence of men in the community:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/02/us/lord-of-the-flies-baltimore/index.html
iris lilies
5-3-15, 3:52pm
Interesting take on some of Baltimore's issues: the absence of men in the community:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/02/us/lord-of-the-flies-baltimore/index.html
Does this suggest that fathers are just as important if not more important than gubmnt money?
i am shocked at this concept, shocked I tell you.
gimmethesimplelife
5-3-15, 9:29pm
I for one am glad that these six officers in Baltimore have been charged. From what I understand Baltimore has calmed down a great deal since these officers where charged. What I am hoping is - please, please, please - the next time there are questionable circumstances as there were in Baltimore, that it won't take rioting, looting, and burning to have the officers involved face the law with no immunity due to being police officers.
That said, I have a question. Let's say that there had been no rioting or looting or burning - does anyone here other than me believe that these officers would not have been charged minus the drama? (i.e. rioting, looting, burning) This is an example of why I believe as I do about America - without the drama, I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell these officers would be facing charges. Very sad that often America requires drama for laws to be upheld - this is beyond my ability to forgive and/or forget. But. as I've stated already in this thread, it takes what it takes. At least officers are facing charges and next time, in whatever US city such drama plays out in next, maybe those with power might take heed of common sense, and have police officers in said next city be accountable to the law BEFORE drama is perceived as necessary to have laws upheld? Ummmm.....I don't have much faith, but who knows? Rob
Let's say that there had been no rioting or looting or burning - does anyone here other than me believe that these officers would not have been charged minus the drama? If there were reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, I believe those responsible would have been charged. The rioting simply guaranteed that everyone in the vicinity is being charged, right or wrong.
Giving in to a mob isn't justice.
Alan Dershowitz, infamous right wing oppressor of the under classes, seems to disagree with your assessment of the wisdom of charging the officers at this time, Rob.
Makes a good political statement though, especially to people unfamiliar with how the process works.
Enjoy.
gimmethesimplelife
5-3-15, 10:13pm
If there were reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, I believe those responsible would have been charged. The rioting simply guaranteed that everyone in the vicinity is being charged, right or wrong.
Giving in to a mob isn't justice.You really honestly believe that without the rioting, looting, and burning these six officers would have faced charges? I don't believe they would have without the intense drama. This is something else America has taught me - not only legal settlements but drama is sometimes necessary for laws to be upheld. I don't know how to forgive America for this - it's simply inexcusable. But at least in Baltimore drama worked.....here's a wish that human beings in future similar situations will be worth the human rights and human dignity afforded by having police officers accountable to the law - and without litigation and/or intense drama being necessary.
With all the years I've lived in America, I'm not holding my breath on this wish, though. Rob
You really honestly believe that without the rioting, looting, and burning these six officers would have faced charges?
I thought I was clear, let me try again. I believe that the wrong-doer, if an investigation found there to be one, would be charged. The fact that 6 are being charged tells me that pure democracy, otherwise known as mob rule, is in play in Baltimore. If America taught you to expect that, you were mis-lead.
Alan Dershowitz, infamous right wing oppressor of the under classes, seems to disagree with your assessment of the wisdom of charging the officers at this time, Rob.
Makes a good political statement though, especially to people unfamiliar with how the process works.
Enjoy.I saw the Dershowitz interview, and I happen to agree with his statement.
This is something else America has taught me - not only legal settlements but drama is sometimes necessary for laws to be upheld. I don't know how to forgive America for this - it's simply inexcusable. But at least in Baltimore drama worked.....
I think most laws are upheld fairly regularly without the addition of the media's dramatic license. It certainly did work in Baltimore, though. It worked to boost cable news ratings, YouTube hits, tweets, newspaper sales, the public profile of a young State's Attorney...
The odds against getting a conviction on second degree murder or manslaughter charges seem pretty overwhelming (see Graham v. Conner and others). The State certainly knows that which leads me to guess this might be a ploy to pacify the mob and avoid a Fergusonesque summer. If so, its not a completely ridiculous strategy, but do we really need a lesson about using the ends to justify the means?
Also, look at the timing of the announcement of the indictments--Friday afternoon, strategically planned to avoid weekend rioting. It was riot-to-be turned victory parade. I understand that the community considers the indictments to be a victory of sorts, but having a "victory" parade in the wake of tragedy--a death and six indictments--seems like a poor choice of words.
During the 68 Democratic convention chaos in Chicago, Old Man Daley said looters would be shot on sight, I believe. Too bad that's not an option now.
Because an attack on business is a sound justification for execution without trial, right? Just like walking/driving while black justifies whatever brutality head-banger police want to dish out. I guess it's only a police state when somebody else is being roughed up.
Because an attack on business is a sound justification for execution without trial, right?
I believe this point was addressed up-thread.
But yes, if you look at the laws of most states, use of lethal force is permitted to suppress riots. Been that way for a long long time.
gimmethesimplelife
5-4-15, 3:42pm
Because an attack on business is a sound justification for execution without trial, right? Just like walking/driving while black justifies whatever brutality head-banger police want to dish out. I guess it's only a police state when somebody else is being roughed up.+1000 Rob
Arson of an occupied building is grounds for use of lethal force in many states.
But it's obvious that the thugs hold protected status with many.
I listened to the Dershowitz interview, and what he said made a lot of sense. I can't remember if it was he or rather the interviewer who mentioned the prosecutor's talk about it being the young people's time...... .including herself. As Dershowitz said, it isn't the job of the Prosecutor to "fix" things, but to follow the law. Should be interesting how it all plays out, in terms of following the law versus trying to keep the crowds from getting angry/destructive again. I guess the jury doesn't have to follow the law though.....But what happens then? The judge intervenes with his/her opinion?
As was mentioned in the interview, the police who showed up later actually had harsher charges than the police who started the whole thing. And the driver of the van got the harshest charge?? This is a real mess.
Because an attack on business is a sound justification for execution without trial, right?
+1000 Rob
As Tradd eluded to above, its not the property, its the potential for "collateral damage". The burned out shops could be repaired, but the family heirlooms, pet cats, grandmothers and small children in adjoining or adjacent spaces couldn't be. Is an arsonist in that setting so different from a mass shooter in a mall? Should the police just let a gunman keep shooting innocent people until he runs out of ammo and can be peacefully arrested or should they use (potentially) lethal force to stop him before others are hurt or killed? How would you answer if your loved ones were in the mall or in the apartment above the burning convenience store?
Arson of an occupied building is grounds for use of lethal force in many states.
But it's obvious that the thugs hold protected status with many.
I would think that shooting those engaged in endangering other people's lives would be more expeditious than convening a restorative justice committee.
Also, I saw a New York Times editorial that said you're not allowed to use the word "thug" anymore.
Yeah....it's the "T" word. >8)
I saw a New York Times editorial that said you're not allowed to use the word "thug" anymore.
Yep, I heard someone on NPR last week saying the same thing. According to him, it's the new "N" word and only black people may use it because when anyone else uses it, it's racist. It makes me wonder why liberals assume all thugs are black?
Yep, I heard someone on NPR last week saying the same thing. According to him, it's the new "N" word and only black people may use it because when anyone else uses it, it's racist. It makes me wonder why liberals assume all thugs are black?
I saw that CNN piece with Erin Burnett and Carl Stokes where that whole idea originated--CNN played it almost on a continuous loop. So I can see how maybe Stokes was incensed, but I think it was probably an unintended consequence of that interview that suddenly "T" became "N"--I've always assumed a thug can be of any race, and I'm a liberal.
Hmmm......I had the feeling that it was probably the blacks who were offended by the "T" word.
iris lilies
5-5-15, 6:11pm
+1000 Rob
i would like you two to ruminate on the pain and suffering of all of the pets who died in a deliberate arson fire of a newly built condo complex near me. It was so sad,they held a memorial for all of the pets. No humans were harmed.
i certainly feel like executing the asshole who perpetrated that crime.
i would like you two to ruminate on the pain and suffering of all of the pets who died in a deliberate arson fire of a newly built condo complex near me. It was so sad,they held a memorial for all of the pets. No humans were harmed.
i certainly feel like executing the asshole who perpetrated that crime.
About two years ago in the space of several long days, I responded to 3 simultaneous arson fires in a very small village near mine:
- The Olga Artworks - a communal space in a historic restored barn. Dozens of artists showed their work there, and there was a lovely café in the back of the building. It just reopened last week, after much reconstruction. Many jobs were lost, and people had to move away from the community because of this fire. I suppose many jobs were created from the reconstruction project though....
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-smuiC7ESRTc/UezEbTUE0MI/AAAAAAAAIN8/zY5hbej7Hmw/s440/fire-olga-440.jpg
- The _____ house fire - a lovely shoreline house, home to friends of mine, burned to the ground, fire was so intense we couldn't save it. Luckily they were away, or I suspect there would have been several deaths. The arsonist burned it in a manner that indicated he didn't check for residents first.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-u0CPeaoA53s/UezEbYS7RaI/AAAAAAAAIOA/yWCV7Gin9Tw/s400/fire-06-07-willis-lane-house.jpg
- The _____ workshop fire - near to that, a large workshop set ablaze. We got that one in time, still caused many thousands of dollars of damage, and put the guy out of business for a month or so, causing him to lay off several workers.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EGuRAsblF1U/UezEbbq0x9I/AAAAAAAAIOE/gNwusKAjRqQ/s440/fire-willis-foam-07-19.jpg
All these fires were *at the same time*, the evil bleep setting them was doing so in part to cause huge trouble for the responders, judging from the timing and location of the events.
The arsonists endangered the lives of residents and responders, caused loss of jobs, and cost a huge amount of $$$.
So, yeah, no sympathy for arsonists.
gimmethesimplelife
5-5-15, 10:53pm
i would like you two to ruminate on the pain and suffering of all of the pets who died in a deliberate arson fire of a newly built condo complex near me. It was so sad,they held a memorial for all of the pets. No humans were harmed.
i certainly feel like executing the asshole who perpetrated that crime.In this case I happen to agree with you, IL. It's beyond sickening that pets should die due to arson, I agree with that. I'm also glad some respect was shown to have a memorial service for the pets. Rob
flowerseverywhere
5-5-15, 11:32pm
And the people the arsonists really hurt...their own people
http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2015/05/01/heres-why-that-burned-up-cvs-matters-so-much-to.html
does anyone honestly believe that stores will be rushing to rebuild? The CVS employees barely escaped. Very sad senseless destruction.
gimmethesimplelife
5-5-15, 11:56pm
And the people the arsonists really hurt...their own people
http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2015/05/01/heres-why-that-burned-up-cvs-matters-so-much-to.html
does anyone honestly believe that stores will be rushing to rebuild? The CVS employees barely escaped. Very sad senseless destruction.I don't disagree with you stating that this was very sad and senseless destruction. There's a BUT coming but before I deliver it I'm hoping you will understand that I agree with your point here to some degree. BUT.....this did not happen in a vacuum for no reason whatsoever and maybe, just maybe if these officers in Baltimore had not seemingly behaved in a way that was completely against the laws they are sworn to uphold.......GEE MAYBE this didn't have to happen? Ummmmmmm.....maybe?
I'm not thrilled with the rioting and looting and burning, most especially the burning - the burning really turns me off much more than the rioting or looting. Burning to me seems very senseless. BUT having lived in fear of America and having learned how little human life truly means in this country, I can understand the anger that leads to such behavior. I sure can. This is why I often refer to Mexico as a safety valve - the closeness of Mexico keeps things much calmer here than if Phoenix were located a great distance from the border. It's not like people in Baltimore can easily get to Mexico for medical/dental/inexpensive time away from insanely turbo charged American capitalism. Here at least people can run to the border and chill and get their acts together. Baltimore is far from such a safety valve. AT any rate, I'm not thrilled with what took place in Baltimore but I also believe those six officers would not have been held accountable to the law had Baltimore not gone nuts. The blame for this I have no trouble placing at the doorstep of this citizenship, either. How does one forgive America for the need to conduct such behavior for police officers to be accountable to the law? I'm not a saint, I can't forgive America for this, nor can I ever forget it. I am however hoping that such drama repeats itself this summer (if police officers blatantly break the law in such instances with the assumption that they are above the law). It's very sad America is like this but if this is what it takes for residents of low income neighborhoods to not be vulnerable to illegal and overzealous behavior on the part of the police, it's like I said before. It takes what it takes. Just remember that this is America's fault the next time the media images of such startle or disgust you. I won't be startled and disgusted, however. I will be depressed that such acts are necessary in the United States to level and equalize the playing field - so that all are more equal under the law.
To summarize - I agree that the need for this behavior is sad - I wish this were not the case - We all deserve to be equal under the law and America itself creates this situation where such behavior is necessary to more level the playing field under the law. It takes what it takes. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 12:01am
I don't disagree with you stating that this was very sad and senseless destruction. There's a BUT coming but before I deliver it I'm hoping you will understand that I agree with your point here to some degree. BUT.....this did not happen in a vacuum for no reason whatsoever and maybe, just maybe if these officers in Baltimore had not seemingly behaved in a way that was completely against the laws they are sworn to uphold.......GEE MAYBE this didn't have to happen? Ummmmmmm.....maybe?
I'm not thrilled with the rioting and looting and burning, most especially the burning - the burning really turns me off much more than the rioting or looting. Burning to me seems very senseless. BUT having lived in fear of America and having learned how little human life truly means in this country, I can understand the anger that leads to such behavior. I sure can. This is why I often refer to Mexico as a safety valve - the closeness of Mexico keeps things much calmer here than if Phoenix were located a great distance from the border. It's not like people in Baltimore can easily get to Mexico for medical/dental/inexpensive time away from insanely turbo charged American capitalism. Here at least people can run to the border and chill and get their acts together. Baltimore is far from such a safety valve. AT any rate, I'm not thrilled with what took place in Baltimore but I also believe those six officers would not have been held accountable to the law had Baltimore not gone nuts. The blame for this I have no trouble placing at the doorstep of this citizenship, either. How does one forgive America for the need to conduct such behavior for police officers to be accountable to the law? I'm not a saint, I can't forgive America for this, nor can I ever forget it. I am however hoping that such drama repeats itself this summer (if police officers blatantly break the law in such instances with the assumption that they are above the law). It's very sad America is like this but if this is what it takes for residents of low income neighborhoods to not be vulnerable to illegal and overzealous behavior on the part of the police, it's like I said before. It takes what it takes. Just remember that this is America's fault the next time the media images of such startle or disgust you. I won't be startled and disgusted, however. I will be depressed that such acts are necessary in the United States to level and equalize the playing field - so that all are more equal under the law.
To summarize - I agree that the need for this behavior is sad - I wish this were not the case - We all deserve to be equal under the law and America itself creates this situation where such behavior is necessary to more level the playing field under the law. It takes what it takes. Rob
PS I came back to add - there are so many US cities that are powder kegs just waiting to ignite - and I have no real faith police officers have learned enough from these events to conduct themselves as the law permits without crossing the line. Which city will be next? My guess is something in the South like maybe Atlanta, but who knows?
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 12:14am
Yeah....it's the "T" word. >8)I have no problem throwing the word "thug" around - provided the word is used somewhat fairly and democratically. Case in point - it's looking very much like the six officers charged in Baltimore - ummmmm.....government thugs (and with to die for benefits and a pension which to me makes it even more evil on their part).
Now, I will grant the folks who burned and looted - also thugs - yes I said that - also thugs. The problem here though is like I stated above, this situation did not happen in a vacuum. Had the government thugs with to die for benefits and a defined pension not conducted themselves as they did....hmmmmmmmmm........maybe this wouldn't have happened to begin with? The government thugs drew first blood here - it could be said that two wrongs don't make a right - but with the underlying anger just waiting to explode in communities like this, one would really think the police ummmm.......might take a course in American Social Classes 101 and realize that such behavior might come back to bite them in the rear end? I mean I understood these realities by the time I was a sophomore in high school - no one had to tell me any of this. I was able to look around and figure it out on my own - why shouldn't police officers not know these basics at an older age, especially when dealing with lower social classes is part of their job?
Anyway, I digress. My point here was that BOTH sides of this equation are thugs - but I blame the police more as they drew first blood here. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 3:25am
Here's something I found interesting - apparently the US is not the only country in the developed world with police brutality issues - in yesterday's (05/05) USA Today there was an article about police brutality in Tel Aviv, Israeli. Apparently some police officers in Tel Aviv beat an Ethiopian Israeli. Israel being the developed country it is, of course most people have smartphones and of course video was taken and used much the same way it would be used here. I will keep up with this story online if I can find more information - I want to see if Israel handles this better than the US does. Rob
I agree that the need for this behavior is sad - I wish this were not the case - We all deserve to be equal under the law and America itself creates this situation where such behavior is necessary to more level the playing field under the law. It takes what it takes. Rob
There is never a "need" for mindless violence. "It takes what it takes" has been the justification of every murdering tyrant and sociopath since the beginning of time.
And apparently in this case what it took was knocking a handcuffed man around in the back of a paddy wagon for 40 minutes to teach him a lesson. Or something. After all, he looked guilty of something. But maybe that look and running away was just fear that exactly what happened would happen.
flowerseverywhere
5-6-15, 11:01am
Rob, why do you stay in the US?
It's not that easy to emigrate, unless you're young and well-educated, or able to buy your way in. I considered moving to Canada after I retired, but I missed the cut by a few points on their numerical scoring system. Maybe I should have put some effort into raising my score, but it didn't seem that important at the time.
The old sixties provocation "America: love it or leave it" was lame then, and it's lame now. You can "love" it while working to change what's wrong with it, as patriots have done since the Founding Fathers.
iris lilies
5-6-15, 12:30pm
It's not that easy to emigrate, unless you're young and well-educated, or able to buy your way in. I considered moving to Canada after I retired, but I missed the cut by a few points on their numerical scoring system. Maybe I should have put some effort into raising my score, but it didn't seem that important at the time.
The old sixties provocation "America: love it or leave it" was lame then, and it's lame now. You can "love" it while working to change what's wrong with it, as patriots have done since the Founding Fathers.
But Mexico welcomes those with Amerian dinero, as residents anyway. Don't know about citizenship.
my friend just sold his Mexico property for around $300,000 and was required to turn over $50,000.00 to the government and attorneys. This was a surprise to him. He says that there really are no standards for property sales as far as how much the scoundrels get, depends on the lawyer and the local gubmnt officials and the level of corruption. They do love silly and "rich" Americans.
flowerseverywhere
5-6-15, 12:43pm
Jane, I never said love it or leave it. I am interested in Rob's answer.
by the way, we would not be here today if people had not risked all immigrate.
I am however hoping that such drama repeats itself this summer ...
That's a vile evil hope. You hope that this summer someone gets killed by police, and before there is even a trial of the officers involved, citizens of a neighborhood burn down old folks' homes, their pharmacy, cars, and endanger the lives of the firefighters and medics who respond?
However, if your hope comes true, perhaps you'll be lucky enough to see it happen in your own neighborhood, so you can witness the society you hoped for first-hand, and enjoy its consequences personally.
That's a vile evil hope. You hope that this summer someone gets killed by police, and before there is even a trial of the officers involved, citizens of a neighborhood burn down old folks' homes, their pharmacy, cars, and endanger the lives of the firefighters and medics who respond?
However, if your hope comes true, perhaps you'll be lucky enough to see it happen in your own neighborhood, so you can witness the society you hoped for first-hand, and enjoy its consequences personally.
It does seem to take schadenfreude to an unwholesome extreme to wish for something like that. Nor is it all that realistic in terms of Rob's vision for social change. The great conflagrations of the sixties made little difference, and we seem unlikely to generate a bloodbath today that would be sufficient for his hopes.
Maybe we should take away the pensions of looters and rioters and arsonists? And sue them for big settlements!
Here's something I found interesting - apparently the US is not the only country in the developed world with police brutality issues - in yesterday's (05/05) USA Today there was an article about police brutality in Tel Aviv, Israeli. Apparently some police officers in Tel Aviv beat an Ethiopian Israeli. Israel being the developed country it is, of course most people have smartphones and of course video was taken and used much the same way it would be used here. I will keep up with this story online if I can find more information - I want to see if Israel handles this better than the US does. Rob
I am so tired of CNN/MSNBC/FOX and all the other myopic "news" outlets, so I tuned into BBC World the other day. Between news reports of what's happening in Libya's human trafficking, ISIS on the road to Baghdad forcing thousands out of their homes, and Nepal's earthquake, it was an exercise in recalling how much greener the grass is on our side of the fence, even if that fence is in need of repair.
Here's something I found interesting - apparently the US is not the only country in the developed world with police brutality issues - in yesterday's (05/05) USA Today there was an article about police brutality in Tel Aviv, Israeli. Apparently some police officers in Tel Aviv beat an Ethiopian Israeli. Israel being the developed country it is, of course most people have smartphones and of course video was taken and used much the same way it would be used here. I will keep up with this story online if I can find more information - I want to see if Israel handles this better than the US does. Rob
I worked with a Chinese woman who taught in Israel for awhile. Her summation of the situation was that Palestinians in Israel were treated "worse than Americans treat African-Americans." Maybe that's the case with Ethiopian Jews, also.
I am so tired of CNN/MSNBC/FOX and all the other myopic "news" outlets, so I tuned into BBC World the other day. Between news reports of what's happening in Libya's human trafficking, ISIS on the road to Baghdad forcing thousands out of their homes, and Nepal's earthquake, it was an exercise in recalling how much greener the grass is on our side of the fence, even if that fence is in need of repair.
This is very true catherine!
I am so tired of CNN/MSNBC/FOX and all the other myopic "news" outlets, so I tuned into BBC World the other day. Between news reports of what's happening in Libya's human trafficking, ISIS on the road to Baghdad forcing thousands out of their homes, and Nepal's earthquake, it was an exercise in recalling how much greener the grass is on our side of the fence, even if that fence is in need of repair.
I like Al Jazeera. They are good at covering world news, have fewer commercial interruptions, and appear freer of corporate/government influence than other news channels.
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 4:07pm
And apparently in this case what it took was knocking a handcuffed man around in the back of a paddy wagon for 40 minutes to teach him a lesson. Or something. After all, he looked guilty of something. But maybe that look and running away was just fear that exactly what happened would happen.+10000 Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 4:09pm
Rob, why do you stay in the US?I have given my reasons for remaining in the US in the past more than once. if you don't remember my posts in regards to this, please reply to this post and I'll state them once again. Rob
I like Al Jazeera. They are good at covering world news, have fewer commercial interruptions, and appear freer of corporate/government influence than other news channels.
I agree.
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 4:16pm
That's a vile evil hope. You hope that this summer someone gets killed by police, and before there is even a trial of the officers involved, citizens of a neighborhood burn down old folks' homes, their pharmacy, cars, and endanger the lives of the firefighters and medics who respond?
However, if your hope comes true, perhaps you'll be lucky enough to see it happen in your own neighborhood, so you can witness the society you hoped for first-hand, and enjoy its consequences personally.I'm afraid I understand how little human life is worth in America when one is in a lower social class - I've known this since I was 13. Didn't take much for me to figure that one out, either. All I had to do was look around me and draw simple conclusions.
I'm also afraid that the police will not learn that they are not above the law and that a situation similar to what happened in Baltimore will soon take place once more. I have no faith in American police period, no suprise there by now for all reading this. It takes what it takes - and Baltimore seemed to prove that chaos can hold police accountable to the law. It might be much more appropriate, Bae, to point the finger at the United States and demand to know reasons why chaos is necessary for police to be held accountable to the law. Why the free pass for this country? Why does America deserve to not be scrutinized in the coldest of blood? It is unforgivable that chaos had to take place in Baltimore for these six officers to be charged for their misdeeds. It's long overdue that more people cold bloodedly comparison shop this citizenship to other countries and then demand to know reasons why America doesn't stack up well in certain areas, this being only one such area. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 4:21pm
I like Al Jazeera. They are good at covering world news, have fewer commercial interruptions, and appear freer of corporate/government influence than other news channels.I've heard of Al Jazeera before. What network is this on? I'm thinking it's not on the standard channels? Possibly I can access Al Jazeera online? Rob
Rob,
In your world, those police officers would have been taken out in the street and strung up from lamp posts, or burned alive, without any due process being involved at all. If they weren't simply torn apart by angry villagers.
You have in previous discussions evidenced little or no understanding of the timescales or process of our judicial system. It is premature to riot and burn buildings before a trial has even happened yet, for instance. Often charges aren't even made against wrong-doers until enough of an investigation has progressed to satisfy certain standards, and that doesn't happen overnight, unlike TV episodes.
I don't see people asking for "a free pass", I see them asking that we follow the rule of law.
Enjoy mob rule, while it lasts. Perhaps you'll get to video it in your neighborhood soon!
I like Al Jazeera. ......... appear freer of corporate/government influence than other news channels.
???? Al Jazeera is owned by the government of Qatar. Are you somehow under the impression that an organization owned by a country's government and chaired by a Sheikh who is a member of that country's ruling family is freerer of government influence than other news channels?
Is that the network Al Gore sold out to when his network didn't pan out?
I'm afraid I understand how little human life is worth in America when one is in a lower social class ...
And so the antidote for one life being devalued is to devalue everyone else's as well? I much prefer a society that works to correct anomalies rather than one that simply discarding a system that has been worked out over 240 +/- years and, for the most part, works pretty well.
iris lilies
5-6-15, 6:35pm
I have given my reasons for remaining in the US in the past more than once. if you don't remember my posts in regards to this, please reply to this post and I'll state them once again. Rob
But that was prior to getting married. Is he gun ho about moving south of our u.s. Border?
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 6:58pm
But that was prior to getting married. Is he gun ho about moving south of our u.s. Border?I'm not married quite yet, IL. Given that I'm taking off for Europe/Morocco and given that the weather doesn't get nice again most years until mid October here, we are making it legal in mid October. We have discussed living in Mexico before and I'm not against it and neither is he. You do have to be picky about where you live, however. Some states/areas it is very smart to avoid, but there are places in Mexico that are safe. Just like when Medellin (sp?) in Columbia was a mess - smart expats went to other parts of Columbia that were safe and really stretched their dollars/pounds/whatever currency. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-6-15, 7:00pm
And so the antidote for one life being devalued is to devalue everyone else's as well? I much prefer a society that works to correct anomalies rather than one that simply discarding a system that has been worked out over 240 +/- years and, for the most part, works pretty well.Ummmmm.....you miss my point entirely. How about we as a nation don't devalue ANYONE's life to begin with? Ummm.....might that not prevent a lot of this drama period? I believe this is too much to hope for in America - but it sure might nip a lot of the downsides of this citizenship in the bud. Rob
???? Al Jazeera is owned by the government of Qatar. Are you somehow under the impression that an organization owned by a country's government and chaired by a Sheikh who is a member of that country's ruling family is freerer of government influence than other news channels?
It seems to be freer of influence from our corporations or government. That's why I watch it. I know it's foreign-owned, like the BBC or CBC, which I also watch.
Ummmmm.....you miss my point entirely. How about we as a nation don't devalue ANYONE's life to begin with? Ummm.....might that not prevent a lot of this drama period? I believe this is too much to hope for in America - but it sure might nip a lot of the downsides of this citizenship in the bud. Rob
No Rob, I didn't. Devaluation, like prejudice and so many other things, can be harder to see than we might think. I have read multiple posts that suggest there might be a benefit in depriving accused police officers of their rights to due process. Or depriving innocent bystanders of their life, liberty or right to pursue happiness by destroying their property (or worse) to advance the agenda of the mob. Or that the ends justify the means in so many other messy ways. They don't. Never have. Never will. Contrary to popular belief, its the means that define us, not the ends because there are no ends.
History is filled with pitchfork carrying mobs of thugs. Some of them made a positive difference by correcting injustice and some of them made matters far worse than they were before. Are you absolutely sure the actions of the most recent violent band of anarchists is noble and altruistic in a search for society's ideal plane? My guess is that they are closer to a band of disenfranchised people for whom opportunity and hope might as well be no more than Platonic notions. If that's the case there are far more positive options than encouraging them to burn the neighbors out.
When mob rule was the order of the day in France, Edmund Burke wrote, “It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”
It seems to be freer of influence from our corporations or government. That's why I watch it. I know it's foreign-owned, like the BBC or CBC, which I also watch.
So you don't object so much to corporate or government influence so much as American corporate or government influence? What makes American institutions uniquely evil?
So you don't object so much to corporate or government influence so much as American corporate or government influence? What makes American institutions uniquely evil?
+1 That appears to be exactly what Jane is saying.
We all marinate in American corporate influence; it's refreshing to get news without it. It's also refreshing to get real news as opposed to infotainment.
We all marinate in American corporate influence; it's refreshing to get news without it. It's also refreshing to get real news as opposed to infotainment.
Exactly
We all marinate in American corporate influence; it's refreshing to get news without it. It's also refreshing to get real news as opposed to infotainment.
So your preference would be for news funded only by pure, untainted tax money provided by disinterested governments? Not for the meretricious cozenage spouted by the New York Times Company, or others subsisting on advertising or subscription fees?
We all marinate in American corporate influence; it's refreshing to get news without it. It's also refreshing to get real news as opposed to infotainment.
You may have a very valid concern with corporate influence.
Still not sure how you think it is instead better to get news from a network wholly owned and controlled by an unconstrained absolute monarchy that has no independent legislature and which bans political parties. A place where a female's testimony is worth half a man's and in some cases a female witness is not accepted at all. A place that considers stoning someone to death to be a legal punishment and which punishes apostasy and homosexuality with death.
Personally I would rather take my chances with the corporations.
We all marinate in American corporate influence; it's refreshing to get news without it. It's also refreshing to get real news as opposed to infotainment.
Agreed. That's why I like to seek out bloggers from the source whenever possible. They don't have much production value and their make-up isn't so good, but they talk about what they see going on. Makes for some interesting comparisons with more established media outlets.
You may have a very valid concern with corporate influence.
Still not sure how you think it is instead better to get news from a network wholly owned and controlled by an unconstrained absolute monarchy that has no independent legislature and which bans political parties. A place where a female's testimony is worth half a man's and in some cases a female witness is not accepted at all. A place that considers stoning someone to death to be a legal punishment and which punishes apostasy and homosexuality with death.
Personally I would rather take my chances with the corporations.
That's a good point, but al Jazeera is a respected international news organization that's not afraid to report on issues like women's rights even as its government abridges them. http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/3/6/head-of-un-women-no-country-has-achieved-gender-equality.html
There are very few countries that can claim a moral high ground in their treatment of women (my mother's generation remembers when American women couldn't vote, and I remember when you had to have a male relative co-sign your loan*), and we still don't have an Equal Rights Amendment. Call me a cockeyed optimist, but i like to think the Middle East will come around--maybe not until the old guard dies off; I still believe in an Arab Spring, and in the power of popular uprisings for good.
*When I got my first mortgage, the loan officer showed me off to other employees there like I was a unicorn; such a thing had never happened before in their financial institution, apparently.
My community doesn't have a jail. We recently arrested a fellow, and sent him to the neighboring small county to be locked up until trial.
He died in prison the other day, while alone in the "safety room".
I'm looking for advice from Rob and his friends on when and how we should start rioting. We don't have that many stores here to burn, but we could give it a try. Out of solidarity.
http://www.sanjuanjournal.com/news/300686851.html#
I'm so disappointed though - here in the most liberal county in the state, full of social justice warriors, my neighbors seem to be content to wait until the medical examiner finishes and the incident makes it through the normal process. I haven't seen a single #whitelivesmatter protester in the streets, and nobody cut my fire hose last night when I was dealing with a burning home.
Well, it could be that the reason is there are no Big-Boxes to loot on your island. No Tee-Vees, No Tee-Pee, & prolly no tire shops sellin' dem gold weelz, see? What they really should do is build a Pillory on the town square, to detain people, short term. Then, in addition to monitoring them, locals can go by and shame the lawbreakers. Longer term, use an uninhabited island out there, and build a stockade, and transport the detainees. Hope that helps you some.
Well, it could be that the reason is there are no Big-Boxes to loot on your island. No Tee-Vees, No Tee-Pee, & prolly no tire shops sellin' dem gold weelz, see? What they really should do is build a Pillory on the town square, to detain people, short term. Then, in addition to monitoring them, locals can go by and shame the lawbreakers. Longer term, use an uninhabited island out there, and build a stockade, and transport the detainees. Hope that helps you some.
People can get creative - in Keene, NH last year they had to break up a riot caused by attendees of the annual pumpkin festival they have there.
I'm so disappointed though - here in the most liberal county in the state, full of social justice warriors, my neighbors seem to be content to wait until the medical examiner finishes and the incident makes it through the normal process. I haven't seen a single #whitelivesmatter protester in the streets, and nobody cut my fire hose last night when I was dealing with a burning home.
Slackers. Probably all just sitting around waiting for the next farm subsidy check to come in.
My community doesn't have a jail. We recently arrested a fellow, and sent him to the neighboring small county to be locked up until trial.
He died in prison the other day, while alone in the "safety room".
I'm looking for advice from Rob and his friends on when and how we should start rioting. We don't have that many stores here to burn, but we could give it a try. Out of solidarity.
http://www.sanjuanjournal.com/news/300686851.html#
I'm so disappointed though - here in the most liberal county in the state, full of social justice warriors, my neighbors seem to be content to wait until the medical examiner finishes and the incident makes it through the normal process. I haven't seen a single #whitelivesmatter protester in the streets, and nobody cut my fire hose last night when I was dealing with a burning home.
Maybe if your county had paid out $6M in settlements in just the last 4 years to people who were mistreated by the police it would have been a different situation.
Maybe if your county had paid out $6M in settlements in just the last 4 years to people who were mistreated by the police it would have been a different situation.
+1
and here in Phoenix we taxpayers get the pleasure of paying yet again for Sheriff Joe's illegal activities. So far the federal judge is the only one brave enough to stand up to this guy.
gimmethesimplelife
5-9-15, 10:45pm
+1
and here in Phoenix we taxpayers get the pleasure of paying yet again for Sheriff Joe's illegal activities. So far the federal judge is the only one brave enough to stand up to this guy.+1000 Rob PS....Sheriff Joe's gotta go!!!!! Sorry, I couldn't resist this last.
gimmethesimplelife
5-9-15, 10:46pm
Maybe if your county had paid out $6M in settlements in just the last 4 years to people who were mistreated by the police it would have been a different situation.+1000 Very good point. Rob
flowerseverywhere
5-10-15, 1:58pm
+1000 Rob PS....Sheriff Joe's gotta go!!!!! Sorry, I couldn't resist this last.
Mr pink underwear has been elected six times. What is being done to change that? A lot of people like the way he rules. In order to change that a huge get out the vote campaign has to take place, and a qualified candidate has to run against him with overwhelming support of people who are not benefitting from his antics.
gimmethesimplelife
5-10-15, 2:32pm
Mr pink underwear has been elected six times. What is being done to change that? A lot of people like the way he rules. In order to change that a huge get out the vote campaign has to take place, and a qualified candidate has to run against him with overwhelming support of people who are not benefitting from his antics.All I can say about Sheriff Joe Arpaio is that he is a major embarrassment and an expensive one at that, costing taxpayers (though not many in my neighborhood, I'll grant that) in nicer areas costly settlements for his illegal actions. What is it with police behavior in general and to me, even more importantly, why has it taken THIS long to stand up to it? At least things are changing for the better now.....my take is that there is too much momentum now for another Sheriff Joe to happen or for victims of the police to not step forward and for the publicity and the big payday. It embarrasses me that as a nation it has taken this long for people to demand basic human rights supposedly granted by the law. Rob
As I recall Sheriff Joe has been elected what? Six or seven times? Obviously there are more people in Maricopa County that like him than don't. Maybe there are other places to call home that would be more in line with certain victim orientated sensibilities. Or is the tyranny of the majority an example of (reverse) mob rule?
As I recall Sheriff Joe has been elected what? Six or seven times? Obviously there are more people in Maricopa County that like him than don't. Maybe there are other places to call home that would be more in line with certain victim orientated sensibilities. Or is the tyranny of the majority an example of (reverse) mob rule?
Yes, those who vote in Maricopa County (not the majority of those who live here, by any means) are more likely Republican than Democrat. And that means that even if Jesus came back as a Democrat, as a friend's parents once said to her, they would still vote Republican. That's how he has managed to stay in office. That, and the fear-mongering about illegal immigrants that ramped up wildly after the Great Recession of 2008.
But "victim oriented sensibilities"?? Tell that to the children and women in El Mirage AZ whose complaints of molestation and rape were ignored by Sheriff Joe for years. He used the money the town paid to grandstand about finding and arresting illegals. To this day those people in El Mirage have not seen justice. And yes, that's tyranny by someone with a badge. http://www.kpho.com/story/18794378/former-el-mirage-cop-writes-book-about-botched-mcso-cases
gimmethesimplelife
5-11-15, 9:48pm
Yes, those who vote in Maricopa County (not the majority of those who live here, by any means) are more likely Republican than Democrat. And that means that even if Jesus came back as a Democrat, as a friend's parents once said to her, they would still vote Republican. That's how he has managed to stay in office. That, and the fear-mongering about illegal immigrants that ramped up wildly after the Great Recession of 2008.
But "victim oriented sensibilities"?? Tell that to the children and women in El Mirage AZ whose complaints of molestation and rape were ignored by Sheriff Joe for years. He used the money the town paid to grandstand about finding and arresting illegals. To this day those people in El Mirage have not seen justice. And yes, that's tyranny by someone with a badge. http://www.kpho.com/story/18794378/former-el-mirage-cop-writes-book-about-botched-mcso-casesLainey, as much as I find Sheriff Joe revolting, repugnant and overall a disgustingly sorry excuse for a Sheriff, I did not know of these issues in El Mirage. I will do some Internet Digging and Thank You for posting this. Rob
Yes, those who vote in Maricopa County (not the majority of those who live here, by any means) are more likely Republican than Democrat. And that means that even if Jesus came back as a Democrat, as a friend's parents once said to her, they would still vote Republican. That's how he has managed to stay in office. That, and the fear-mongering about illegal immigrants that ramped up wildly after the Great Recession of 2008.
Whatever Sheriff Joe has done or not done is, for this argument, irrelevant. You state that the majority of people living in Maricopa County don't vote. Does that mean we should base all our policy decisions on what we perceive as the desires of large groups who are too apathetic to use their own voices? If the situation is so bad and negatively impacts so many people it should be the easiest thing in the world to organize a campaign to oust the Sheriff. Apparently there just aren't enough people who think its a big enough problem to do something as simple as voting for someone else. If the sheriff's department went after anyone or any group that campaigned against it that would be one thing, but since there is no real threat aimed at the would-be opposition (every non-voting democrat in Maricopa County) I don't see how you can fly the tyranny flag.
iris lilies
5-12-15, 12:58pm
Whatever Sheriff Joe has done or not done is, for this argument, irrelevant. You state that the majority of people living in Maricopa County don't vote. Does that mean we should base all our policy decisions on what we perceive as the desires of large groups who are too apathetic to use their own voices? If the situation is so bad and negatively impacts so many people it should be the easiest thing in the world to organize a campaign to oust the Sheriff. Apparently there just aren't enough people who think its a big enough problem to do something as simple as voting for someone else. If the sheriff's department went after anyone or any group that campaigned against it that would be one thing, but since there is no real threat aimed at the would-be opposition (every non-voting democrat in Maricopa County) I don't see how you can fly the tyranny flag.
i was wondering, too, how rob wasn't involved in that county expense of lawsuit payoffs when it seems to be his county. I went down the wrong rabbit hole, thinking maybe maricopa co is separate for his city, like in my city/county jurisdiction.
i was wondering, too, how rob wasn't involved in that county expense of lawsuit payoffs when it seems to be his county. I went down the wrong rabbit hole, thinking maybe maricopa co is separate for his city, like in my city/county jurisdiction.
The Maricopa County Sheriff's Office has an active Civilian Observer/Ride-Along program, you can call the office and schedule, drop by and fill out the waiver, and off you go. Rob could ride along, with his cell phone, and make sure things are on the up-and-up. But Rob admits he's uncomfortable even being in the same restaurant as a police officer, so sitting in the front seat of a car with one might be a trigger.
I don't see how you can fly the tyranny flag.
Tyranny would seem to require an affirmative act. The case of the Sheriff not investigating some crimes seems more aptly described as negligence, or abandonment of duty.
iris lilies
5-12-15, 1:18pm
Tyranny would seem to require an affirmative act. The case of the Sheriff not investigating some crimes seems more aptly described as negligence, or abandonment of duty.
also, I didn't know what to think of that in Rob- think. It might be better to just not chase and arrest rapists because police harrassment could occur. Someone might get scared with police attention focused on them. blood pressure might go up. Really better to avoid the chances of all of that.
. .. If the sheriff's department went after anyone or any group that campaigned against it that would be one thing, but since there is no real threat aimed at the would-be opposition (every non-voting democrat in Maricopa County) I don't see how you can fly the tyranny flag.
Sheriff Joe is famous for going after his critics - http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/05/08/sheriff-joe-arpaio-legal-fate-hinges-intent-civil-contempt/70993872/
and we taxpayers continue to pay and pay and pay
Sad to think that the victims of rapists and molesters, who never saw justice from those paid to serve and protect, are today's fodder for comedic posts.
But, once again, I'd like to reiterate the understanding that this forum does not tolerate personal attacks. Or does it? Because the cyber bullying against Rob continues despite his personal request that it stop. And also despite his personal refusal to respond in kind. So I'll add: just stop it, it's become abusive. Or have the forum rules changed?
So let's start fresh and get back to the recreational arguing.
Sad to think that the victims of rapists and molesters, who never saw justice from those paid to serve and protect, are today's fodder for comedic posts.
But, once again, I'd like to reiterate the understanding that this forum does not tolerate personal attacks. Or does it? Because the cyber bullying against Rob continues despite his personal request that it stop. And also despite his personal refusal to respond in kind. So I'll add: just stop it, it's become abusive. Or have the forum rules changed?
So let's start fresh and get back to the recreational arguing.
Bolding mine. Yes, Rob certainly has taken the high road, as he always does.
gimmethesimplelife
5-12-15, 11:22pm
Bolding mine. Yes, Rob certainly has taken the high road, as he always does.Jane, Thank You. Other than some kind words from my future husband, this is the kindest thing anyone has said about me in quite some time. I appreciate your understanding that I have been taking the high road. I'm not going to lie, sometimes it's very hard to zip my digital lip and not cross the line - I'm human just like anyone else. At the end of the day, though, I'm the one who has to face himself in the mirror and on most days I'm proud or at least neutral about the choices I've made in the past 24 hours or so. I like being able to face myself in the mirror - this is the big reason I rarely cross the line. Thanks again, Jane, BTW. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-12-15, 11:26pm
Sheriff Joe is famous for going after his critics - http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/05/08/sheriff-joe-arpaio-legal-fate-hinges-intent-civil-contempt/70993872/
and we taxpayers continue to pay and pay and payand pay and pay and pay and pay. Frustrating as the money that is used to pay out settlements due to Mr. Arpaio - could it not be used better in some other way for the general betterment of society? Yet he does keep getting elected and the settlements continue to be paid out. Beyond my understanding is the only nice way I can put it. Rob
This has been one amazing thread, I've just spent almost an hour reading it. Thanks to everyone for the most thought-provoking commentary in a long while!
My own two cents ... a while back, I watched a documentary called The Century Of The Self. It's about the vast sea change in personality that the age of consumerism effected. We shifted from beings who were accepted into a clan by the act of being born, to beings who feel inadequate unless they purchase things which make them part of a group of their own choosing, and define their identity.
However, the "white experience" is statistically still about being born into clan, one is a Miller or a Smith or an Astor in addition to being a Patek Philippe wearer and a basset hound owner and a Nascar collector. For socially healthy children, there is a place to go where one is an accepted member of a group which includes mature adults of both sexes, simply by virtue of birth.
Now ... I think about the black community, generally speaking. In so many places, this community is still in recovery from the violent rending of families during and directly after the period of slavery. The original slaves were tribal, their entire societal wisdom stretching back, perhaps, to the beginning of people, was based on that sense of innate belonging to a group. Suddenly over a generation or two, no group, no family, no sense of roots other than guessing what it might have been like. Male role models, fathers, elders are in short supply, still. Mothers in the poor communities tend to be young, inexperienced and often alone. I think this makes black children terribly vulnerable to the sense that they have to earn a place in a group; it's a birthright they do not receive. Add to this the ubiquitous western pressure to be part of a group of Owners of Something, and then add in the poverty that makes that ownership nearly impossible.
And I think, if you don't wind up with gangs, you wind up with people who are desperately empty. They don't have a sense of clan, and they can't buy a sense of commercial acceptability. This emptiness is where they begin, the "foundation" on which they attempt to create a sense of worth and belonging.
I think about my own emptiness, my own lack of connection and clan, and my (intentional, not always successful) rejection of materialism. I'm rich and white and that's still hard and lonely and ... and sometimes I grieve for my lack of a family bigger than two people caught up in their own drama. Sometimes the empty ache of not belonging is terrible, and I'm one of the lucky ones. I try to imagine what it would be like to be not only clan-less but poor and with skin that's a badge that screams I don't belong, at least to some people ...
... and I think it's a miracle the entire country's not in flames at this point.
gimmethesimplelife
5-13-15, 12:29am
This has been one amazing thread, I've just spent almost an hour reading it. Thanks to everyone for the most thought-provoking commentary in a long while!
My own two cents ... a while back, I watched a documentary called The Century Of The Self. It's about the vast sea change in personality that the age of consumerism effected. We shifted from beings who were accepted into a clan by the act of being born, to beings who feel inadequate unless they purchase things which make them part of a group.
However, the "white experience" is statistically still about being born into clan, one is a Miller or a Smith or an Astor in addition to being a Patek Philippe wearer and a basset hound lover and a Nascar fan. For socially healthy children, there is a place to go where one is an accepted member of a group which includes mature adults, simply by virtue of birth.
Now ... I think about the black community, generally speaking. In so many places, this community is still in recovery from the violent rending of families during and directly after the period of slavery. Male role models, fathers, elders are in short supply, still. I think this makes black children terribly vulnerable to the sense that they have to earn a place in a group; it's a birthright they do not receive. Add to this the ubiquitous pressure to be part of a group of Owners of Something, and then add in the poverty that makes that ownership nearly impossible.
And I think, if you don't wind up with gangs, you wind up with people who are desperately empty. They don't have a sense of clan, and they can't buy a sense of commercial acceptability. This emptiness is where they begin, the "foundation" on which they attempt to create a sense of worth and belonging.
I think about my own emptiness, my own lack of connection and clan, and my (intentional, not always successful) rejection of materialism. I'm rich and white and that's still hard and lonely and ... and sometimes I grieve for my lack of a family bigger than two people caught up in their own drama. Sometimes the empty ache of not belonging is terrible, and I'm one of the lucky ones. I try to imagine what it would be like to be not only clan-less but poor ...
... and I think it's a miracle the entire country's not in flames at this point.Interesting post, kib. And I couldn't agree more with your last line. I've often wondered how we have avoided this to date, too. Rob
Wow, kib, great post. You so very well, and poignantly, captured how I feel (and tried weakly to post) with regard to the African American still carrying the weight of being shorn from their roots, and how the impact of that lasts for generations.
We need to rebuild our society with tribe as building block and foundation in America. Tribe is how we've started and where we lived for millions of years before we fell apart worshipping the totem poles.
We need to rebuild our society with tribe as building block and foundation in America.
Like Rwanda? Like Sudan?
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