Talking finances with older parents

[RosieTR]

Any good websites/books/guides? My parents and MIL are in sound mind and I think finances. But better to have these conversations now, and they can be awkward, than when folks start to falter. It'd be nice to have some guidebooks, kwim?

[razz]

As an older parent, I am somewhat amused that you feel that they have not already done extensive thinking and research into finances but your thought is well-intentioned.

I would ask them for advice on some good books that they have found on financial planning for the long-term and talk about your own circumstances seeking their input and perception of need in the future.

What older adults find really annoying is the assumption that their kids need to do their thinking for them rather than openly recognizing that they have a lot of wisdom to share, IMHO anyway.

[Tammy]

People of any age can do whatever they want with their finances.

The only thing that helps, is when parents have a guide to their various accounts in writing, so whoever handles their estate knows where to find everything.

[ApatheticNoMore]

What do you do if a parent is basic letting a sibling bankrupt them or nearly close to it and so they constantly wonder if bills will get paid and run up debt they hide from financial advisors? Nothing one can do I suppose (as they are not mentally incompetent), carry on and worry about one's own life. Out of one's hands. Maybe it all works out, if not there's always things like reverse mortgages to tap some money I guess.

To assume my parents ever read books on financial planning for the future, seem bizarre, such a thing never happened. But then a lot of planning that did go on was for a different world, one in which interest rates were not zero pretty much. The planning was save money, interest rates at the bank will pay 6%, all is well. Shows you what a complete joke planning is. I could talk about my own circumstances to my surviving parent, but no one really cares. One's own circumstances are really one's own problem.

[iris lilies]

What do you do if a parent is basic letting a sibling bankrupt them or nearly close to it and so they constantly wonder if bills will get paid and run up debt they hide from financial advisors? Nothing one can do I suppose (as they are not mentally incompetent), carry on and worry about one's own life. Out of one's hands. Maybe it all works out, if not there's always things like reverse mortgages to tap some money I guess.

To assume my parents ever read books on financial planning for the future, seem bizarre, such a thing never happened. But then a lot of planning that did go on was for a different world, one in which interest rates were not zero pretty much. The planning was save money, interest rates at the bank will pay 6%, all is well. Shows you what a complete joke planning is. I could talk about my own circumstances to my surviving parent, but no one really cares. One's own circumstances are really one's own problem.

Finamcial planning is not a complete joke.

but carry on.

[Lainey]

I know in Roz Chast's book about dealing with her elderly parents, she found, to her surprise, that her recalcitrant parents really opened up to a financial expert that she hired. Somehow they would tell him things they would not even discuss with her. So if it turns out your parents and MIL need some help but would be embarrassed to admit what they don't know, a neutral 3rd party might be best.

[frugal-one]

What do you consider older? Recently our son was asking how much money we had. I told him "enough". He continued and I said "none of your business". I feel really weird talking to him (or anyone for that matter) about how much money we have. We are very savvy with our finances and, surely, don't need help. I did tell him where the information for all our accounts was located in case we should pass. Other than that... I think he can wait to find out.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I'd happily work out a deal, no inheritance in return for not being left to pay other people's debt I can't (ie I don't' care about inheritance just try not to go bankrupt - please .... because I can't save you - I'm not rich and never will be so no I really can't).

[iris lilies]

I know in Roz Chast's book about dealing with her elderly parents, she found, to her surprise, that her recalcitrant parents really opened up to a financial expert that she hired. Somehow they would tell him things they would not even discuss with her. So if it turns out your parents and MIL need some help but would be embarrassed to admit what they don't know, a neutral 3rd party might be best.
I loved that book. It was hilarious in a true to life way.

[kib]

I don't know what the OP's concerns were, but I have some about my parents. Dad is 91, Mom is 86. He's done every jot of financial work and planning and bill paying since day 1, and his health is starting to go downhill. Neither one of them wants to look at what that might mean for her future. They're well set up as far as having planned well and having enough money. I don't know what I will inherit and I don't really care, I'm fine too, but I'm concerned about the day to day management of a very complex portfolio by someone who knows nothing about it, and I will literally blow a gasket if she winds up being taken for 20% of her net worth by someone at Morgan Stanley or Edward Jones when I am perfectly capable of helping her. And no, I don't have any advice on a good book, I'd love one.

Was that Can't We Talk About Something More Pleasant? Wonderful book, although not exactly a reference.

[RosieTR]

Thanks for the replies! I should provide more context. My dad has done their planning, and when they say they are fine, I believe it. But, if they feel they are more than fine and want to give money and pay for things, it can be awkward or it can be heart-warming depending on communication. They paid for my college and I didn't have kids, so if they want to give my sister $ for special things for her family they should do that happily. But some parents, like MIL, feel the need to make sure everyone gets the same amount. So it's happened that one BIL needed a decent sum for some sort of poor planning incident in his life so she gave each son a similar amount to be "fair". Now yes it's her money and if that makes her feel happy, that's fine. But I don't want her, 5 years from now, to regret giving us money so that things were "equal" when we were fine without it, KWIM? And if my parents want to be unequal because their kids are in different circumstances, then I want them to feel ok about that. Not sure how to convey these things, nor how the other siblings feel. This came up in one form or another for both mine and DH's family so it prompted my lament. Doesn't sound like a lot of answers out there.

[iris lilies]

Thanks for the replies! I should provide more context. My dad has done their planning, and when they say they are fine, I believe it. But, if they feel they are more than fine and want to give money and pay for things, it can be awkward or it can be heart-warming depending on communication. They paid for my college and I didn't have kids, so if they want to give my sister $ for special things for her family they should do that happily. But some parents, like MIL, feel the need to make sure everyone gets the same amount. So it's happened that one BIL needed a decent sum for some sort of poor planning incident in his life so she gave each son a similar amount to be "fair". Now yes it's her money and if that makes her feel happy, that's fine. But I don't want her, 5 years from now, to regret giving us money so that things were "equal" when we were fine without it, KWIM? And if my parents want to be unequal because their kids are in different circumstances, then I want them to feel ok about that. Not sure how to convey these things, nor how the other siblings feel. This came up in one form or another for both mine and DH's family so it prompted my lament. Doesn't sound like a lot of answers out there.
It seems simplest to me to have a conversation with your parents and inlaw to tell them that you don't expect equal financial handouts.

and if they give you money anyway, and you suspect they might need it in the future, set it aside and give it back when the time comes.

[iris lilies]

I don't know what the OP's concerns were, but I have some about my parents. Dad is 91, Mom is 86. He's done every jot of financial work and planning and bill paying since day 1, and his health is starting to go downhill. Neither one of them wants to look at what that might mean for her future. They're well set up as far as having planned well and having enough money. I don't know what I will inherit and I don't really care, I'm fine too, but I'm concerned about the day to day management of a very complex portfolio by someone who knows nothing about it, and I will literally blow a gasket if she winds up being taken for 20% of her net worth by someone at Morgan Stanley or Edward Jones when I am perfectly capable of helping her. And no, I don't have any advice on a good book, I'd love one.

Was that Can't We Talk About Something More Pleasant? Wonderful book, although not exactly a reference.
yep that book.

[razz]

Thanks for the clarification, Rosie. What you are talking about is more complex. I would talk to them and ask straight out about a circumstance where someone was abused because of $$ mismanagement and how it could have been prevented. It is more about raising awareness of your concerns and asking them to deal with 'your' concerns about their well-being. It is not about challenging them in their decision-making about financial matters. As with any conscious raising, it may take a number of situations to give you peace of mind and get your points of concern across.

Quite frankly, it is none of your business how they share the family's wealth unless they deprive themselves in the future. I make decisions according to 'my' values. Your values may be different and you can apply them in your decisions.

FWIW, my two children have met my lawyer, my accountant, know my CFP at the credit union where my assets are located and all the details of my financial affairs. Because I am so transparent, they need have no concerns about my financial management.

[iris lilies]

I'd happily work out a deal, no inheritance in return for not being left to pay other people's debt I can't (ie I don't' care about inheritance just try not to go bankrupt - please .... because I can't save you - I'm not rich and never will be so no I really can't).
You don't have to pay anyone else's debt. Where is this coming from?

[jp1]

Finamcial planning is not a complete joke.

but carry on.

Very true but if one hasn't updated their plan in 20 years they're getting screwed by the federal reserve and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

[catherine]

Thanks for the replies! I should provide more context. My dad has done their planning, and when they say they are fine, I believe it. But, if they feel they are more than fine and want to give money and pay for things, it can be awkward or it can be heart-warming depending on communication. They paid for my college and I didn't have kids, so if they want to give my sister $ for special things for her family they should do that happily. But some parents, like MIL, feel the need to make sure everyone gets the same amount. So it's happened that one BIL needed a decent sum for some sort of poor planning incident in his life so she gave each son a similar amount to be "fair". Now yes it's her money and if that makes her feel happy, that's fine. But I don't want her, 5 years from now, to regret giving us money so that things were "equal" when we were fine without it, KWIM? And if my parents want to be unequal because their kids are in different circumstances, then I want them to feel ok about that. Not sure how to convey these things, nor how the other siblings feel. This came up in one form or another for both mine and DH's family so it prompted my lament. Doesn't sound like a lot of answers out there.

I appreciate your thoughts on that, and I have no advice to give, unless I give you my top 10 list of "do as I say, not as I do." But I have 4 kids, and I do worry about inequality in funds I disperse while I'm alive (not after I've died, because I'm sure I'll die broke). I don't want my kids to say "you got this, and I only got that" even though NONE of them have ever given me any reason to believe they'd think that way. They are ALWAYS gracious and grateful for whatever we give them.

As for you, I would just assure them of exactly what you said: that it's FINE with you if BIL gets more because of a certain circumstance. Then let them do as they please.

We have gotten into a bad situation because of my MIL's intention to make things equal, having to do with leaving her paid-for home to both DH and BIL equally (and BIL lives in the house, and we allow him to do so for free) so I would just say, make sure that there are no joint assets allocated across siblings when they die, because that is a PAIN in the neck.

edited to fix Freudian slip

[Glo]

I don't understand the reluctance to talk about money. I'm 68, DH is almost 72. Our three sons know everything about our finances. I don't want anyone being shocked when we die.

[frugal-one]

I don't understand the reluctance to talk about money. I'm 68, DH is almost 72. Our three sons know everything about our finances. I don't want anyone being shocked when we die.

I am reluctant to talk to DS about money. He is the only heir and think he would not work as hard now if he thought he was going to get a wad when we die. We live very frugally so he really is unsure about our situation. I guess I would prefer if he were more motivated to do things on his own. As it is, all may go to a nursing home... who knows?

[SteveinMN]

I am reluctant to talk to DS about money. He is the only heir and think he would not work as hard now if he thought he was going to get a wad when we die. We live very frugally so he really is unsure about our situation. I guess I would prefer if he were more motivated to do things on his own. As it is, all may go to a nursing home... who knows?
Just to play devil's advocate, DS seems to have found a way to live a life that suits him and has enough income for it. We're here on a simple-living forum because we've found a lifestyle that suits us and most (maybe all) of us have enough income to support it. So long as DS is not imposing on anyone (you and DH, the taxpayers of wherever he lives, etc.), does it matter if his level of motivation does not meet your expectations? At the point where he might get an inheritance, will you care what he does with it?

[iris lilies]

I am reluctant to talk to DS about money. He is the only heir and think he would not work as hard now if he thought he was going to get a wad when we die. We live very frugally so he really is unsure about our situation. I guess I would prefer if he were more motivated to do things on his own. As it is, all may go to a nursing home... who knows?
If you've never had the money talk with your son, it is awkward to do it now, I guess.

But you should still do it, I think. In a void of information he will make up something, even if it's not something he thinks about often.

I like the way my parents handled this issue. I don't even remember the first time they talked about their money and their death, but somewhere in my late teens they started to talk about their plans. They said that our "inheritance" is our educationand we shouldn't expect anything more. And that was fine with me because who at that age thinks about their parents dying?

then, over the years, they pointed out instances where friends or family were handling estates badly, using those events as object lessons.

then, as they got older, they were very clear to point out that money goes quickly if one of them goes to a nursing home. My grandmother was in a nursing home for a few years.

Then, near the end of her life and before dementia set in, my mother set up an appointment with her financial guy and me and my brother so that we could know about her assets. They weren't huge, a few hundred thousand dollars.

And near the end of her life she spent freely and then lived in a nursing home for a few years, so about half of assets were gone upon her death. The remaining assets were ours because our names were on the financial instruments as owners.

we didn't expect anything, but ended up with a nice little amount. It was a windfall, not something we expected for most of those years.

the point here is that sharing your financial philosophy and plan is good. Open communication about Finances is a good thing.

[TVRodriguez]

If you've never had the money talk with your son, it is awkward to do it now, I guess.

But you should still do it, I think. In a void of information he will make up something, even if it's not something he thinks about often.

I like the way my parents handled this issue. I don't even remember the first time they talked about their money and their death, but somewhere in my late teens they started to talk about their plans. They said that our "inheritance" is our educationand we shouldn't expect anything more. And that was fine with me because who at that age thinks about their parents dying?

then, over the years, they pointed out instances where friends or family were handling estates badly, using those events as object lessons.

then, as they got older, they were very clear to point out that money goes quickly if one of them goes to a nursing home. My grandmother was in a nursing home for a few years.

Then, near the end of her life and before dementia set in, my mother set up an appointment with her financial guy and me and my brother so that we could know about her assets. They weren't huge, a few hundred thousand dollars.

And near the end of her lie she spent freely and then lived in a nursing home for a few years, so about half of assets were gone upon her death. The remaining assets were ours because our names were on the financial instruments as owners.

we didn't elect anything, but ended up with a nice little amount. It was a windfall, not something we expected for most of those years.

the point here is that sharing your financial philosophy and plan is good. Open communication about France's is a good thing.

+1 to all of this!!!

I'm an estate planning and probate attorney, and I can tell you that transparency is my fervent recommendation. Kids expect to receive money. They just do. Nature abhors a vacuum, and they will fill it in with thoughts of inheritance, exactly as iris lilies says.

And the idea of a continuing conversation over years rather than one sit-down talk is the most effective that I've seen. Just like talking to kids about sex and drugs, this information is best absorbed over time.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't think anyone would work less hard based on expecting to get money. People work as hard as they personally can (which if the job is hated by them and their heart is elsewhere, may have it's limits, but there you go). Fear, be very very afraid, what about retirement, etc. are very poor motivators. However they might motivate greater saving (which afterall is much easier than working harder anyway - it's easier to try to pinch pennies than work extra overtime). And they might motivate reduced risk taking, because no one else is going to catch you if the risks don't work out.

[jp1]

I agree with Iris. My father, shortly after I had finished college (my sister is a few years older) sent us both a handwritten document listing he and mom's assets, and income (they were retired at the time) and list of all the various accounts, life insurance policies, etc. It also listed his lawyer's name and the fact that if you go to his office you should park in front of 'a show of hands' the manicure place downstairs from the lawyer's office. Every 5 or 6 years he sent a revised version. Over the years it became normal to discuss his finances with him. He sent the last update after mom died 9 years ago because there were some changes made as a result if her death. Consequently, when he passed away last fall there were no surprises or large hassles taking care of things. And in the 6 months before he passed, while in the hospital and nursing home we were able to manage his affairs well because my sister was already on his bank account and was able to get herself and me added to the other accounts prior to his death. And we knew that there was plenty of money to splurge on a private room at the nursing home, making his last month as pleasant as it could be under the circumstances. The only real hassle was getting his car registered in my name.

And when my sister stopped by the lawyer's office for something she simply texted me a picture of the sign for 'a show of hands' and I knew where she was because we had joked for years about dad's attention to detail including parking instructions at his lawyer's office.

[frugal-one]

Well, the other thing... DS says "you guys are loaded". You can pay for this or that. It makes me cringe. We are comfortable but have many years to live. We travel as we like, do garage sales, and buy used over new... basically the frugal philosophy. He has and does live frugally too. Will think about informing him but am not looking forward to it.

[Teacher Terry]

I actually used to be friend's with a couple that did not work more then p.t., rack up CC bills, ask for help from their parents because they knew they were going to inherit a lot of $ when parents died. I think they would have done better if they didn't know. Got a $300,000 inheritance & upgraded to very expensive house then when hubby got cancer instead of using their insurance here they asked MOm to pay for 3 weeks of expensive treatment in another country. When Mom dies they will blow that too. Or maybe is she has a long nursing home stay there will be nothing & they also will be old & poor-68 now.

[iris lilies]

I actually used to be friend's with a couple that did not work more then p.t., rack up CC bills, ask for help from their parents because they knew they were going to inherit a lot of $ when parents died. I think they would have done better if they didn't know. Got a $300,000 inheritance & upgraded to very expensive house then when hubby got cancer instead of using their insurance here they asked MOm to pay for 3 weeks of expensive treatment in another country. When Mom dies they will blow that too. Or maybe is she has a long nursing home stay there will be nothing & they also will be old & poor-68 now.

I don't understand how people change their lifestyle for $300,000. That is not very much.

I guess hte bottom line is that that parents should have a philosophy about how their estate is distributed and communicate that, but then don't sweat it. We cannot control the behavior of others from the grave.

[iris lilies]

Well, the other thing... DS says "you guys are loaded". You can pay for this or that. It makes me cringe. We are comfortable but have many years to live. We travel as we like, do garage sales, and buy used over new... basically the frugal philosophy. He has and does live frugally too. Will think about informing him but am not looking forward to it.
My fault if I am be laboring this point. You know what's best for your family, obviously. I understand your concern about sharing your own financial,information with your son if he is already looking at your stash with a greedy eye.

If in your shoes I would probably remind him that is it YOUR money, and if any if left after your death, he may get some. I honestly don't know if I would share the amount if your estate with him because it does not sound like he is realistic about money.

I would consistently make is clear that it is YOUR money NOT his inheritance, and there may well not be any money left.. Far too many people look at their parents' stash as some life changing event, then they start asking for "my inheritance" early, leading to more problems.

[kib]

Iris and TV Rodriguez, I have to ask. Would having my name on the financial instruments exempt me from any inheritance tax? My Dad is obsessed about this and I've wondered if creating joint accounts when one of them goes would be a simple solution that also facilitates disbursal of funds upon final liquidation of the estate.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If was as simple as having a name on an account why do people set up whole trusts. Of course I think money has to reach a large amount to be subject to estate taxes.

300k might change my life. Maybe I would feel it was safe to make a career change or something. Noone in my family has so much money to their name, so not gonna happen. The house might be worth that but it's not maintained and despite advice from the financial advisor to try to maintain it noone does, so it's probably a tear down, maybe the land is. Who knows how much money my parents inherited (I mean just middle class inheritances) - from multiple people they have got inheritances, but the financial advisor says there won't be much to inherit period. They have given 100s of thousands of money to an irresponsible sibling, why would it have been bad for them to at least give a little to me early, or even given to me not to spend but to just hold in a bank account so that sibling didn't spend it all and I wasn't worried about mom's old age. The perfect equality thing would be nice, it would prevent all rewards going to irresponsibility as they will otherwise naturally go to of course. I think perfect equality towards all kids is the only thing that can possibly work.

[frugal-one]

Iris and TV Rodriguez, I have to ask. Would having my name on the financial instruments exempt me from any inheritance tax? My Dad is obsessed about this and I've wondered if creating joint accounts when one of them goes would be a simple solution that also facilitates disbursal of funds upon final liquidation of the estate.

PODs (Paid on Death) and TOD (transfer on death) will alleviate probate. Also, in some states a home can have TOD (transfer on death) also. It is treated the same as if the person received an insurance policy. In our case we only have one child so we did this. The only other thing is to have a will that indicates that he is able to pay the bills after we are gone.

IL... My son is very frugal (more than I am sometimes). I don't think he is "greedy" only that he thinks we should pay for everything since we are "loaded". I think this mentality would expand if he knew our net worth. Not that it is much ... but to him it would seem like a fortune. He thinks we should be candid about money with him but because of this attitude we are very leery of saying anything. I have told him there may not be any inheritance since we have many years left (hopefully) and if we get sick that may be it. A conundrum.

[iris lilies]

Kib, my mother didn't have enough money to throw us into inheritance tax.

ANM, $300,000 IS a lot of money and I suppose could be life changing especially if one is in debt and uses it to get out. I guess I meant that for trading up in houses and that kind of mindset, it would be gone within 5 years.

[razz]

Be careful about being on joint signatures on saving accounts or other assets, according to a banking friend. If one of the cosigning parties has a legal financial liability triggered for whatever reason, half the $$$ amount on the joint instruments would be considered assets and can be seized to settle the liability.

[Florence]

I am 67 and my husband is 68. I have made sure that our daughter (only child) knows where our wills are and where our financial accounts are.

[frugal-one]

I am 67 and my husband is 68. I have made sure that our daughter (only child) knows where our wills are and where our financial accounts are.

I have done the same but have not elaborated on dollar value.