With Friends Like These

[LDAHL]

I thought this was interesting. Member countries of NATO agree that an attack on one member in Europe or North America will be treated as an attack on all. The Pew Research Center conducted polls in a number of member countries to measure public agreement with that commitment. When asked if their country should respond to conflict between Russia and a NATO country, only two nations (the U.S. and Canada) polled over 50% in the affirmative. Solid majorities in most said they thought the US would respond.

To me, this does not speak well that there is much of a European sense of solidarity. If I were, say, a Latvian, I think I would find this worrisome.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-11/europe-s-selfishness-is-bigger-threat-than-putin

[Gregg]

I've always been the outlier that thinks NATO has outlived its usefulness for the US. Most of northern Europe has had a free ride for a long time. They've been able to develop their near Utopian plans thanks to being able to spend virtually nothing on defense, but still have the muscle of the world's strongest military behind them. I've always wondered if Denmark would still be the world's happiest country if they really needed to pay attention to the sleeping bear.

[IshbelRobertson]

Gregg, I'm soooo glad you said 'some' northern European nations!
Sadly, HM Armed Forces have been sadly depleted in recent years, so many proud regiments gone or amalgamated. Our Navy a joke... We presently have no aircraft carrier of our own, although I believe one is under construction. Let's hope noone declares war for a few years, eh?

[Miss Cellane]

My brother (30 year military veteran) tells stories of going to some of the newer NATO countries for military exercises. At the country's military headquarters, there might be one copy machine, with an officer in charge of it, to make sure that no unnecessary copies were made, to save money on toner and paper. And the rest of the military equipment was on par with that--just enough gas for the vehicles to get to where they needed to go, and no more. A wrong turn could mean that you were out of gas and stranded. Just enough ammo. Just enough food. Just enough guns.

DB said it was a real eye-opener. He stopped complaining when supplies were late to his unit, because at least he knew there were supplies coming. The military of several NATO countries cannot be sure of that.

[LDAHL]

Gregg, I'm soooo glad you said 'some' northern European nations!
Sadly, HM Armed Forces have been sadly depleted in recent years, so many proud regiments gone or amalgamated. Our Navy a joke... We presently have no aircraft carrier of our own, although I believe one is under construction. Let's hope noone declares war for a few years, eh?

I understand the Royal Navy currently has more admirals than they do ships.

[Yossarian]

If I were, say, a Latvian, I think I would find this worrisome.

If I were a Latvian I'm pretty sure I would know who my friends are now:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/world/europe/us-poised-to-put-heavy-weaponry-in-east-europe.html?_r=0

[creaker]

I've always been the outlier that thinks NATO has outlived its usefulness for the US. Most of northern Europe has had a free ride for a long time. They've been able to develop their near Utopian plans thanks to being able to spend virtually nothing on defense, but still have the muscle of the world's strongest military behind them. I've always wondered if Denmark would still be the world's happiest country if they really needed to pay attention to the sleeping bear.

I wouldn't put all the blame on Europe - the US (as in the folks running it as opposed to US people in general) has gladly (insistently?) paid that price so they could be the one in charge - and also coincidentally benefit US military contractors.

Now we're proposing dumping a lot of hardware into eastern Europe, I think for the same reasons above, but primarily for the latter. I just hope that doesn't turn into another situation like Iraq where we basically just armed the other side.

[LDAHL]

I wouldn't put all the blame on Europe - the US (as in the folks running it as opposed to US people in general) has gladly (insistently?) paid that price so they could be the one in charge - and also coincidentally benefit US military contractors.

Now we're proposing dumping a lot of hardware into eastern Europe, I think for the same reasons above, but primarily for the latter. I just hope that doesn't turn into another situation like Iraq where we basically just armed the other side.

I think we have probably been something of an enabler of Europe's dangerous slide into weakness.

I would hesitate to call pre-positioning equipment for 5,000 troops "a lot". That would be a drop in the bucket in a general European war. It's more symbolic than practical.

[creaker]

I think we have probably been something of an enabler of Europe's dangerous slide into weakness.

I would hesitate to call pre-positioning equipment for 5,000 troops "a lot". That would be a drop in the bucket in a general European war. It's more symbolic than practical.

In terms of a war no - in terms of a budget item for hardware that will likely never be used, it's not a trivial amount of money.

[LDAHL]

In terms of a war no - in terms of a budget item for hardware that will likely never be used, it's not a trivial amount of money.

The only net new costs involved will be moving it where it is now to the new location and storing it. As messages go, that strikes me as pretty cheap. Whether the message is believed by our friends, enemies and frenemies is another issue.

[Gregg]

I think we have probably been something of an enabler of Europe's dangerous slide into weakness.

+1 I think we've also played a significant role in the rise of a few nation states that hindsight may show we should have left alone.

Ishbel, FWIW I will support our ties to GB as far into the future as I can see based simply on the loyalty of the past and respect for British resolve. And who knows, there may even be a model coming out of your downsized military that could prove useful for the US in years to come.

[IshbelRobertson]

Gregg
Thank you!

I am not a believer that a political 'special relationship' still exists between our respective countries (if indeed, it ever existed!)