View Full Version : SC and That Flag
Sounds like the SC Governor is working to get rid of the confederate flag. Personally the first images that come to mind are Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Dukes of Hazzard, but I'm white and don't live in the south. At least I self identify as white, but that's a different thread. That's not to say I'm ignorant of our history of slavery and the 150 years of various forms of oppression that have followed it that are also associated with that flag. IMO its well past the time that a state should fly the confederate flag as a state government, along with its symbols and actions, should be representative of its citizens. I can think of no reasonable argument that leads me to believe this flag is still representative of the ethnic cultures or all the peoples of South Carolina. Its sad that it took an event like the church shootings to galvanize the effort to move forward, but human nature being what it is I don't think we should be surprised.
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/06/23/clinton-gore-confederate-campaign-button-surfaces-online/21199944/
https://thisistwitchy.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/clinton_gore.png
If South Carolina or Texas want to exclude the Stars and Bars from their public buildings or license plates, that is certainly their prerogative (and probably the right call, in my view). They have every right to project the image they want to project. As long as they don't attempt to ban the private use of offensive symbols or "desecration" of popular symbols, I really don't see it as all that significant an issue.
I have a different take on it. The Confederate flag (and by the way, the flag in question is the Confederate Battle Flag, not the Stars & Bars) has a much deeper meaning than slavery. The conditions leading up to the War of Rebellion involved many libertarian principles which people still hold dear today. I'm sure lots of folks may consider the Confederacy's secession from the Union in the same light as the Colonials break from Britain in the previous century, and be equally proud even if the results weren't the same.
Most people, as they are wont to do, forget the broader issues and fixate on emotional triggers which relegates the Confederacy to a single issue, but that's only part of the story. People can take pride in their heritage without assuming the worst aspects of their forebears. Assuming that to be true, I believe that if the good people of South Carolina want to take down the state sponsored symbol of their heritage, so be it, but it shouldn't be a matter of concern for outside parties.
But, if outside parties do want to be outraged, they should direct it to the Democrats who legislated it being there. ;)
Edited to add: Texas includes the Confederate flag in their Six Flags Over Texas displays honoring the 6 countries who have held sovereignty over all or part of their territory, the others being Spain, France, Mexico, The Republic of Texas and The United States of America. Does anyone advocate its removal from that grouping as well?
Another aside while I'm thinking of Texas: I understand all the historical statuary in Austin face South. Do you think that represents pride of heritage or is it a racist action which must be corrected?
Probably should pull down the US flag too - that offends a fair number of First Nations folks as it is a constant reminder of this nation's history of genocide and violence directed at their peoples.
http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/3ca/76a/3ca76a21-0e6e-4ca2-81e3-4b27fdbf9f44
If we're going to make an issue over symbols, I would object to displacing Alexander Hamilton from the sawbuck in favor of a yet-to-be-determined female. I've got no objection to dumping Jackson, who was a murderous SOB who objected to paper money anyway. But Hamilton is arguably the most important early figure in American finance.
They have every right to project the image they want to project. As long as they don't attempt to ban the private use of offensive symbols or "desecration" of popular symbols, I really don't see it as all that significant an issue.
As long as the "they" is the representatives acting on the desires of the citizenry and not acting independently, agreed. And so far as I've heard there's been no mention of limiting the private use of the confederate flag, only its use on state buildings.
I have a different take on it. The Confederate flag (and by the way, the flag in question is the Confederate Battle Flag, not the Stars & Bars) has a much deeper meaning than slavery....Most people, as they are wont to do, forget the broader issues and fixate on emotional triggers which relegates the Confederacy to a single issue, but that's only part of the story.
I don't think its wrong or in some way detrimental to relegate symbols to history because of emotional triggers. A swastika had a history of several thousand years as a good luck symbol, but is now marginalized thanks to a decade or so at the other end of the scale. Retiring a symbol doesn't mean we have to forget history. We have plenty of far more efficient ways of doing that.
Another aside while I'm thinking of Texas: I understand all the historical statuary in Austin face South. Do you think that represents pride of heritage or is it a racist action which must be corrected?
I always thought that was just because pigeons like to hang out in the shade. :D
Probably should pull down the US flag too - that offends a fair number of First Nations folks as it is a constant reminder of this nation's history of genocide and violence directed at their peoples.
Actually that's kind of an interesting point. Is it time to redesign old glory as something more representative of who we are now?
1500
I think I mentioned the brouhaha in my community when a Pride flag went up a couple years ago... Didn't turn out as expected for the haters.
That reminds me, it's Pride Week in Seattle starting this weekend I think.
There are just too many people who want everything their own way.........but isn't that what we encourage here in the U.S.? As I've said before, I think it's all going to backfire.
I am a 50ish white lady from the north. Rednecks was all that would come to mind when I would see the very occasional flag till....I lived south the last two years. I developed a strong dislike even repulsion when I saw the flag often on plates, stickers, flying on the back of trucks(that was the worst) ect. People will still do that and it is their freedom to do, but with public property and funds No is my thought.
goldensmom
6-24-15, 7:55am
Most people, as they are wont to do, forget the broader issues and fixate on emotional triggers which relegates the Confederacy to a single issue, but that's only part of the story.
Whenever the issue comes up, whether it is the media or personal conversations, I am convinced more and more that most people slept through US History class in high school.
Whenever the issue comes up, whether it is the media or personal conversations, I am convinced more and more that most people slept through US History class in high school.
That's very true. Now that a Republican Governor is asking to take down a flag originally hoisted as a symbol of defiance by segregationist Democrats, we are being asked to treat this as a moral litmus test for Republican presidential candidates.
In modern times, I see the confederate flag as a nose thumbing to the not-redneck, specifically 'Yankees' but really anyone who can't claim southern citizenship. I think the original meaning of the flag has been lost to some holdover feud loyalty. Frankly, when I see that flag displayed the first thing that comes to mind is "nope, not my kind of people." I have no skin in the game, but support of the removal of this flag - by southern citizens - seems like a move to heal a wound so old no one really remembers it.
As far as Mr. Hamilton is concerned, he seems like the epitome of what I don't like here, both the warnography and the financial system. I don't mind seeing him go, but I have discomfort with the "a woman" part. Really? I'm a feminist and I still find that sort of backward - put the person who's done something amazing on that bill. And if that happens to be someone other than a white male, fine.
About the $10 bill..........I'm pretty sure it's going to be a black woman. The government is trying all sorts of things to make certain people feel included....even though it may not help.
I just feel like "minority" populations, especially minority women, haven't been given the sort of power positions that allow for large-scale social greatness yet, at least not in this country. I'd rather see that happen first. Putting a token person on the bill because they're female doesn't seem like progress, it reminds me of nonsense awards they hand out to everyone these days. I want a woman on the $10 because she belongs there.
ApatheticNoMore
6-24-15, 2:32pm
I don't know, there's cultural stuff I don't understand, but since the flag is offensive to so many, and yes who have been long oppressed, it would seem basic politeness not to display it. And unless you have a good reason not to be polite, basic politeness seems like a good thing.
iris lilies
6-24-15, 2:54pm
The Black Lives Matter thugs defaced a 100 year old monument to confederate soldiers in our largest city park last night. Frankly, I didn't know such a thing existed so way to bring attention to that thugs! That might have worked against ya.
Missouri was a divided state during the war between the states, and St. Louis was in the middle of it.
I am not keen on these displays of southern pride that center on the various confederate flags but people may attach meaning to objects as they wish. So be it. but to me it is a symbol of extreme strife of this country 150 years ago, a very dark time.
what really bites me is protest against confederate flags at gravesite of confederate soldiers. There is another brouhaha today in Missouri because a state legislator participated in a graveside ceremony at the newly made grave of a confederate soldier. It was just recently discovered on his property. He is being castigated by the professional race baiters about his participation. Ridiculous.
The Black Lives Matter thugs defaced a 100 year old monument to confederate soldiers in our largest city park last night.
The only thought I really had was that 100 years seems like a far better than average run for a monument to the losing side. Some don't last a week.
People look at the flag (any flag) and see what they want to see. The good, the bad, the ugly. Its kind of how you choose to see things.
The only thought I really had was that 100 years seems like a far better than average run for a monument to the losing side. Some don't last a week.
http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/07/27/buddha_afg_an_002_slide-f9e1a75cfef0e5286f1a8e047450d9b992ab476e-s900-c85.jpg
People look at the flag (any flag) and see what they want to see. The good, the bad, the ugly. Its kind of how you choose to see things.
Well it may be harder and harder to actually see things going forward. In the latest over-reaction to this subject, Apple has pulled several Civil War games from their app store (http://kotaku.com/apple-yanks-games-with-confederate-flags-from-app-store-1713885047#), citing as their reason “We are writing to notify you that your app has been removed from the App Store because it includes images of the Confederate flag used in offensive and mean-spirited ways.”
Can you imagine that? Historic representations are being sent down the memory hole in order to insulate people from.....history.
Will Apple be pulling this album too? (Or any of dozens of other similar album covers...)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GtpoRKu362Q/S98LoXbDG5I/AAAAAAAAAHU/ohfc8wijsII/s1600/lynyrd-i.jpg
Will Apple be pulling this album too?
I shan't be surprised. I was thinking of Lynyrd Skynyrd just yesterday and "Freebird", more than 40 years later I think the question "If I leave here tomorrow, Would you still remember me" has been answered as "NO! Not if we can help it."
George Clinton, well-known right-wing racist, produced this album by Primal Scream some years back:
http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/575/MI0003575380.jpg?partner=allrovi.com
"And so it was with every class of recorded fact, great or small. Everything faded away into a shadow-world in which, finally, even the date of the year had become uncertain."
... a flag originally hoisted as a symbol of defiance by segregationist....
Yeah. Now tell me again how this flag wasn't a symbol of racism? I'm glad to see you admit it.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/confederate-flag-myths-facts/
"..in their declarations of secession from the Union, some Southern states expressly mentioned slavery as a reason for their departure.
"... an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations ..." South Carolina wrote in its declaration.
The state of Mississippi aligned itself with slavery right off the top of its declaration:
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery -- the greatest material interest of the world."
Georgia named slavery in the second sentence of its declaration. The sad list goes on.
"To put it more simply, South Carolina and the rest of the South only seceded to preserve the violent domination and enslavement of black people, and the Confederate flag only exists because of that secession," said CNN political commentator Sally Kohn.
"To call the flag 'heritage' is to gloss over the ugly reality of history."
But, let's not let history stand in the way of really good talking points about heritage and pride and Dukes of Hazzard.
The battle flag that racists fly so proudly wasn't drug out of the dust bin until the 50's 60's to protest integration and the audacity of the feds to declare lynching a federal crime. The civil war was ALL about slavery. OK, States Rights...to own slaves. This was, of course, an act of treason by the south. We seem to forget that. (In fact, most of the tea party/conservative 'constitutional scholars' who wave their signs and interview on Fox overlook that little aspect of treason against their beloved document by their heroes. Perhaps they should actually read that pocket constitution they carry around and display proudly.)
The battle flag is the flag of the losers. They lost. And people who display it are racist. No one is trying to 'outlaw' you being a racist or owning this flag. Heck, you can paper your whole house with it, sew it into underwear and wear it on your head if you want. But we will no longer pretend it is anything other than the symbol of racist. That was the intention of the flag from the beginning and it will always be.
Having been a northerner for my whole life, I admit I don't know a lot about the confederate flag's meaning.
One question that might inform us in this regard, and I do not know the answer, is whether any southern blacks fly the confederate flag.
I'm a native Texan with ancestors who have lived in the South from before the American Revolution. And I have always been embarrassed by the display of the Convederate battle flag. Glad to see it coming down.
I'm thinking of setting up an Amazon affiliate company that sells Burqas and Hijabs with the confederate flag on them based on a new Mormon-like theology of South Carolinian Islam that purports that the Founding Fathers were not Freemasons but a secret society of Black Transgender Imams who merely identified as white males. Only, the universe might explode from the creation of an egalitarian singularity!
One question that might inform us in this regard, and I do not know the answer, is whether any southern blacks fly the confederate flag.
A few.
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/l/t1.0-9/10153189_393857840799930_7967900732035044383_n.jpg ?oh=9e17ac417533ff2c68500bbcddfbb140&oe=55E92C64
A few.
"Uncle Toms and race traitors. Republican Republican Republican Fox News Koch Brothers. "
Thought I'd save the usual suspects some typing :-)
And lots of Civil War re-enactors, clearly.
Yeah. Now tell me again how this flag wasn't a symbol of racism? I'm glad to see you admit it.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/confederate-flag-myths-facts/
"..in their declarations of secession from the Union, some Southern states expressly mentioned slavery as a reason for their departure.
"... an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations ..." South Carolina wrote in its declaration.
The state of Mississippi aligned itself with slavery right off the top of its declaration:
"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery -- the greatest material interest of the world."
Georgia named slavery in the second sentence of its declaration. The sad list goes on.
"To put it more simply, South Carolina and the rest of the South only seceded to preserve the violent domination and enslavement of black people, and the Confederate flag only exists because of that secession," said CNN political commentator Sally Kohn.
"To call the flag 'heritage' is to gloss over the ugly reality of history."
But, let's not let history stand in the way of really good talking points about heritage and pride and Dukes of Hazzard.
The battle flag that racists fly so proudly wasn't drug out of the dust bin until the 50's 60's to protest integration and the audacity of the feds to declare lynching a federal crime. The civil war was ALL about slavery. OK, States Rights...to own slaves. This was, of course, an act of treason by the south. We seem to forget that. (In fact, most of the tea party/conservative 'constitutional scholars' who wave their signs and interview on Fox overlook that little aspect of treason against their beloved document by their heroes. Perhaps they should actually read that pocket constitution they carry around and display proudly.)
The battle flag is the flag of the losers. They lost. And people who display it are racist. No one is trying to 'outlaw' you being a racist or owning this flag. Heck, you can paper your whole house with it, sew it into underwear and wear it on your head if you want. But we will no longer pretend it is anything other than the symbol of racist. That was the intention of the flag from the beginning and it will always be.
I agree. The Democratic Party should apologize for its historical support of slavery, lynch law and segregation, rendered all the more obnoxious by its current smug preening.
I agree. The Democratic Party should apologize for its historical support of slavery, lynch law and segregation, rendered all the more obnoxious by its current smug preening.
Absolutely. Everyone involved should issue a formal apology, if it hasn't been issued already. Then the Confederate battle flag, which is a symbol of defiance, violence, intimidation, racism, and sedition, should be relegated to museums, where it belongs. Then maybe the South can move on.
Then maybe the South can move on.From more Northern aggression?
I'm thinking of setting up an Amazon affiliate company that sells Burqas and Hijabs with the confederate flag on them based on a new Mormon-like theology of South Carolinian Islam that purports that the Founding Fathers were not Freemasons but a secret society of Black Transgender Imams who merely identified as white males. Only, the universe might explode from the creation of an egalitarian singularity!
Let me know where to send the check.
gimmethesimplelife
6-26-15, 10:41am
I lived in Dalton, Georgia, for a year once in the early 1980's. What a strange year that wasy for me! Sometimes I still look back on it and wonder if it was all a bad dream or did that year actually happen? I'm all for that flag coming down and not being on display any more. For me, the kind of thinking on display by the majority of those who are into this flag is really scary. Is that enough to legally keep it down though? I don't know that it should be. But I sure wouldn't miss this flag if it were banned. Just my two cents from someone who survived the US South. Rob
We have plenty of historic symbols that have been downgraded from daily use to museum pieces so I'm not entirely sure why the emotional fervor runs as high as it does with this one. As much as I truly despise political correctness just for the sake of political correctness, I can see why this is an appropriate time to retire this one. The important, if obvious, point is that the image isn't being banned, its just not going to be displayed on government buildings. People are reacting like jack booted thugs are going door to door collecting Confederate memorabilia.
The Confederate States had a lot of very valid reasons for wanting to separate from the North. Politically speaking, slavery was just one part of the mix. But one of the most important spoils of war is that the victors get to write the history. In the eyes of Northern historians (or propagandists) the Union victory was the great emancipation. The justifications of the time sound a lot like those of the Crusaders 800 years earlier. Anyway, that creates a natural association between Confederate symbols and slavery regardless of what else the Confederacy stood for. In this day and age, if a symbol represents a painful period in history to most people who view it then what benefit is there to continuing its use? The people of SC can vote on it, I don't have any skin in that game, but if they ask my opinion I'll tell them to put it in a museum.
From more Northern aggression?
No--I'm referring to the fact that the South rates at or near the bottom on nearly every indicator of health, education, and infrastructure. This well-being index is just one example: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/02/23/most-miserable-states/5729305/
They can move on from the Civil War to finally rebuilding their states.
iris lilies
6-26-15, 11:06am
I lived in Dalton, Georgia, for a year once in the early 1980's. What a strange year that wasy for me! Sometimes I still look back on it and wonder if it was all a bad dream or did that year actually happen? I'm all for that flag coming down and not being on display any more. For me, the kind of thinking on display by the majority of those who are into this flag is really scary. Is that enough to legally keep it down though? I don't know that it should be. But I sure wouldn't miss this flag if it were banned. Just my two cents from someone who survived the US South. Rob
You would actually support "banning" it? What does that mean to you?
here's hoping you really don't mean that because that level of strong arming political correctness is disgusting to me.
A few.
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/v/l/t1.0-9/10153189_393857840799930_7967900732035044383_n.jpg ?oh=9e17ac417533ff2c68500bbcddfbb140&oe=55E92C64
Hummm...now where did I put that montage of young girls with black eyes who believe they really probably deserved it when their boyfriends hit them. Maybe it's with the montage of folks who actually believe the world is flat. or with the montage of young men and women who believed Bush when he said Saddam had WMD's and would use them against the US any day now. No, wait, that montage is at Arlington National Cemetery.
I just don't seem to have that handy little visual when I need it cause, you know, the truth is in the montage.:D
More flag removals in the news. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/25/national-cathedral-confederate-windows/29299901/
The National Cathedral in Washington, DC, will be removing confederate stained glass. The purge is building momentum.
gimmethesimplelife
6-26-15, 11:13am
You would actually support "banning" it? What does that mean to you?
here's hoping you really don't mean that because that level of strong arming political correctness is disgusting to me.IL didn't I post here that I don't know that my take on this flag and how scary I find the thinking behind it should be enough to ban it? I will say if it were banned my heart would not break but just because I find this flag extremely offensive I don't believe that means it should be banned, no. But if it were banned I would support that. Rob
Hummm...now where did I put that montage of young girls with black eyes who believe they really probably deserved it when their boyfriends hit them. Maybe it's with the montage of folks who actually believe the world is flat. or with the montage of young men and women who believed Bush when he said Saddam had WMD's and would use them against the US any day now. No, wait, that montage is at Arlington National Cemetery.
I just don't seem to have that handy little visual when I need it cause, you know, the truth is in the montage.:D
Yes, those folks in the montage must be marginalized. It's the civilized thing to do.
iris lilies
6-26-15, 11:29am
IL didn't I post here that I don't know that my take on this flag and how scary I find the thinking behind it should be enough to ban it? I will say if it were banned my heart would not break but just because I find this flag extremely offensive I don't believe that means it should be banned, no. But if it were banned I would support that. Rob
O------Kay.
you support "banning" a silly piece of cloth. you are really dancing around my question but you support banning it (your last sentence.)So you won't take a leadership role in the ban but you would "support" that.
I wonder what form that support would take? If the brownshirts came by to pick up those who were secretly manufacturing stars and bars cloth in their basement, would you stand and watch, refusing to document the action with your cell phone? A ban of an object usually leads to prosecution to those who produce it.
for the record, I support manufacture of many flags including stars and bars, and the Stars and Stripes. I also support the rights of my fellow citizens to do whatever they like with the cloth--including burning, flying it, and anything in between. I think any other position is wrong.
ApatheticNoMore
6-26-15, 11:34am
Yes, those folks in the montage must be marginalized. It's the civilized thing to do.
the montage was an odd response to the question anyway which I took as was "do blacks in the south tend to display that flag?" which was asking for personal experience. I don't even know how many whites in the south display it but ...
Nothing wrong with saying "I don't know, I don't have lots of black friends or hang out in black communities", I'm not so PC I really care about people's social lives that way (as in you must have at least one black friend, one gay friend, etc. .... really who cares). But a montage doesn't really refute that for blacks even in the south the flag is overwhelmingly a symbol of slavery, segregation etc. except in some absolute sense "no black ever displayed that flag". And really you'd need to entirely ban the thing to get the civil war reenactors to stop displaying it while engaging in civil war reenactment.
We have free speech. Yokels are free to wave the battle flag from the back of their pickups, or dress their hound in it. I have no problem with that. I do, however, have a problem with it being flown on statehouse grounds. In the end, if Southern states want to continue to celebrate this particular banner and effectively stick their collective thumb in the eye of a good percentage of their citizens, I guess that's their prerogative.
gimmethesimplelife
6-26-15, 11:43am
O------Kay.
you support "banning" a silly piece of cloth. you are really dancing around my question but you support banning it (your last sentence.)So you won't take a leadership role in the ban but you would "support" that.
I wonder what form that support would take? If the brownshirts came by to pick up those who were secretly manufacturing stars and bars cloth in their basement, would you stand and watch, refusing to document the action with your cell phone? A ban of an object usually leads to prosecution to those who produce it.
for the record, I support manufacture of many flags including stars and bars, and the Stars and Stripes. I also support the rights of my fellow citizens to do whatever they like with the cloth--including burning, flying it, and anything in between. I think any other position is wrong.You are right in the sense that I don't take a leadership role on this one - health care is my issue (well that and police brutality, as I'm sure you have noticed by now) but i would support a ban on this flag based on my life experiences living in semi-rural Georgia for a year, yes.
This however is not a life and death issue to me - health care and police brutality are. I have a hard time getting worked up about something that doesn't immediately translate into danger(s) to my survival (and other people's survival). While it is true that i find this flag personally repulsive, it's not something I am going to get so worked up about to take a leadership role in fighting against it. Rob
You think so? The question was "One question that might inform us in this regard, and I do not know the answer, is whether any southern blacks fly the confederate flag.", and my response was "A few" along with a montage of....a few.
ApatheticNoMore
6-26-15, 12:58pm
You think so? The question was "One question that might inform us in this regard, and I do not know the answer, is whether any southern blacks fly the confederate flag.", and my response was "A few" along with a montage of....a few.
Ok I interpreted that one question more broadly as "what is the attitude of southern blacks toward the flag? Do they consider it a symbol of southern pride or of an ugly history?" If taken literally as do ANY southern blacks fly the confederate flag, I don't find it a meaningful question, with human behavior you'll will always have some really out there outliers I think. If southern blacks themselves are divided on the meaning of the flag then hmm. If the vast majority of them see it as a symbol of slavery and segregation and oppression and so on, then a state deciding to flying it on the capitol is a first class instance of being a jerk (that's the polite term the actual term I think of is another one).
But if it were banned I would support that. Rob
Forecast for today, sunny, high of 451*.
Forecast for today, sunny, high of 451*.
“It was a pleasure to burn.”
iris lilies
6-26-15, 1:52pm
You are right in the sense that I don't take a leadership role on this one - health care is my issue (well that and police brutality, as I'm sure you have noticed by now) but i would support a ban on this flag based on my life experiences living in semi-rural Georgia for a year, yes.
This however is not a life and death issue to me - health care and police brutality are. I have a hard time getting worked up about something that doesn't immediately translate into danger(s) to my survival (and other people's survival). While it is true that i find this flag personally repulsive, it's not something I am going to get so worked up about to take a leadership role in fighting against it. Rob
And even more interesting, and problematic to me, is the idea that you would essentially ban free speech (that's what a piece of cloth is in this discussion) even though it's not a primary issue for you. Such a cavalier attitude for such a basic liberty guaranteed by the constitution amazes me.
I can only say that I'm glad your imagined utopian world is not my reality.
here, I'm not talking about flying the confederate or battle flag at anyone's statehouse. That is primarily the business of people who live in that state. I'm talking about an out and out ban on cloth. I wonder who here on this webste also supports this idea, and if they do,what their justification is.
gimmethesimplelife
6-26-15, 2:09pm
And even more interesting, and problematic to me, is the idea that you would essentially ban free speech (that's what a piece of cloth is in this discussion) even though it's not a primary issue for you. Such a cavalier attitude for such a basic liberty guaranteed by the constitution amazes me.
I can only say that I'm glad your imagined utopian world is not my reality.
here, I'm not talking about flying the confederate or battle flag at anyone's statehouse. That is primarily the business of people who live in that state. I'm talking about an out and out ban on cloth. I wonder who here on this webste also supports this idea, and if they do,what their justification is.I think there's been a misunderstanding here and I'll take responsibility for it for not being more clear. I am talking about the issue of flying this flag at anyone's statehouse as you put it. I truly do find this flag repulsive and if it ever were banned I'd still support it - THAT BEING SAID HOWEVER - I don't believe my repulsion of this flag should be anywhere near enough to get it banned overall. If you want to fly this flag, do so - I'm not going to stop you nor do anything about it. The only action I would take is if I were your neighbor and I didn't know you well, I'd be cautious around you. This is hardly taking an active stance against you, however, and I'm of the opinion that your right to fly this flag triumphs my revelsion over this flag. I'm sorry I was not more clear earlier in this thread. Rob
I think there's been a misunderstanding here and I'll take responsibility for it for not being more clear. I am talking about the issue of flying this flag at anyone's statehouse as you put it. I truly do find this flag repulsive and if it ever were banned I'd still support it - THAT BEING SAID HOWEVER - I don't believe my repulsion of this flag should be anywhere near enough to get it banned overall. If you want to fly this flag, do so - I'm not going to stop you nor do anything about it. The only action I would take is if I were your neighbor and I didn't know you well, I'd be cautious around you. This is hardly taking an active stance against you, however, and I'm of the opinion that your right to fly this flag triumphs my revelsion over this flag. I'm sorry I was not more clear earlier in this thread. Rob
I think that's the best way to look at it. If somebody wants to dress up in Nazi or Klan regalia or one of those insipid Che Guevara t-shirts, that's a matter of taste. But the taxpayer-funded sphere is different, and should at least try to be blandly neutral. That's why I think publicly funded art is such a bad idea. Speech codes at public universities is an even worse idea, not to mention an embarrassment before the whole thinking world.
iris lilies
6-26-15, 2:34pm
I think there's been a misunderstanding here and I'll take responsibility for it for not being more clear. I am talking about the issue of flying this flag at anyone's statehouse as you put it. I truly do find this flag repulsive and if it ever were banned I'd still support it - THAT BEING SAID HOWEVER - I don't believe my repulsion of this flag should be anywhere near enough to get it banned overall. If you want to fly this flag, do so - I'm not going to stop you nor do anything about it. The only action I would take is if I were your neighbor and I didn't know you well, I'd be cautious around you. This is hardly taking an active stance against you, however, and I'm of the opinion that your right to fly this flag triumphs my revelsion over this flag. I'm sorry I was not more clear earlier in this thread. Rob
Ok, I accept that. Yours is not after all, then, a crazy opinion.
I think that's the best way to look at it. If somebody wants to dress up in Nazi or Klan regalia or one of those insipid Che Guevara t-shirts, that's a matter of taste. But the taxpayer-funded sphere is different, and should at least try to be blandly neutral. That's why I think publicly funded art is such a bad idea. Speech codes at public universities is an even worse idea, not to mention an embarrassment before the whole thinking world. +1
gimmethesimplelife
6-27-15, 11:16am
I think that's the best way to look at it. If somebody wants to dress up in Nazi or Klan regalia or one of those insipid Che Guevara t-shirts, that's a matter of taste. But the taxpayer-funded sphere is different, and should at least try to be blandly neutral. That's why I think publicly funded art is such a bad idea. Speech codes at public universities is an even worse idea, not to mention an embarrassment before the whole thinking world.Liberal that I am, I couldn't agree more with you about speech codes at public universities. I'm really glad these did not exist back in the day when I was at Northern Arizona University. Rob
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