Tough question about going "extreme" with minimalism/simple living

[Ultralight]

Okay, considering how much I have posted to these forums since I joined (just days ago!) it might seem unbelievable that I would hesitate to ask you all anything on here.

But I have hesitated to ask about one issue: "Extreme minimalism."

I have this experimental urge to try to take simple living/minimalism to the "extreme."

Now the work-spend-work-spend and clutterbug folks I know already think I am an extreme minimalist because I own less than 200 things, I don't have a cell phone, and I have not been in a mall in an eternity. haha

But lately I have got this "now or never" feeling about taking minimalism to the edge -- like down to the holy grail of 100 possessions, getting rid of my "real bed" for a tri-fold mattress, cutting my already small wardrobe even more, selling or donating some bulkier items (like my canoe), and really moving toward a car-free (or very car-lite lifestyle).

Has anyone else taken their simple living to the edge? Gone "extreme" with minimalism? If you have -- or if you haven't -- I'd like to know what you think. I am thick-skinned so you can be candid with me.

Thanks!

-Jake

[Float On]

I think a person even an extreme minimalist should allow a few items for things they really enjoy. What would happen to your quality of life if you gave up the canoe and fishing gear? If I had to pick some things I would pick my kayak over some of my furniture, pottery and painting collection, even most of my husband's blown glass work, my piano, my gardens, the 2 remaining pets, the chickens, and most of my clothes/shoes/jewelry. There has to be something left that makes me me.

Jake doesn't want to sit in a corner rocking does he?

[Ultralight]

Float On:

Don't get me wrong! haha. I would not get rid of my fishing pole. But I'd fish from the bank or use my waders. I still catch plenty from the shore. haha

But I check out books from the library because I like to read. I listen to music on YouTube. The other stuff I like to do doesn't require much either -- hanging out with friends, walking my dog at the park, etc. Obviously I have to remain vigilante about the hobby monster though. haha

[catherine]

Have you heard of:

Peter Lawrence? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw4E8nXcrTk

Ken Ilgunas? http://www.kenilgunas.com/p/the-book-walden-on-wheels.html

These guys seem right up your alley. I have Walden on Wheels and The Happy Minimalist.

However, I'm a minimalist wannabe or aspirant. By NO MEANS am I a living out a minimalist life. With 4 kids' worth of cr*p in my garage and a husband who thinks he needs 30 old tattered shirts for the one time a year he works under the car, not to mention all my sentimental gifts and photos.. forget it.

I posted here several times that my mother was an extreme minimalist, not by choice, but by misfortune (illness and a fire). But I think of her often and her one box of belongings she had when she died.

I always think of what Jesus said: See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith?

What do we REALLY need? Why are we so much needier than birds or deer? Peace Pilgrim had her tunic, her sneakers, a comb, toothbrush, stamps, pencil and notepaper. THAT WAS IT! And she had it all.

I appreciate your post--you just have to pursue minimalism according to what's best for your own personal needs. There's no right or wrong. However, I would just be wise about it and discriminating. (i.e., is this a backlash against your parents' hoarding? Is it means to an end vs. an end in itself? How will it further you as a human being?)

[freshstart]

I get how you would want to do this and probably can if you put your mind to it. But the part of minimalism I don't get is giving away possessions you need (your bed) and then spending money on a foldable mattress. Isn't it simpler and more pure to keep the few things you actually want/need, than going out and buying the minimalist version?

[Tammy]

It depends on whether a person is a traveler. My son lived for a few years without a car. He took everything he owned with him in one backpack and one small piece of luggage - with the exception of one plastic tote of sentimental items that he stored at his brothers house. He traveled around north and Central America for those couple of years.

A mattress would have been impossible. A bed roll works in that life.

[freshstart]

gotcha

[Chicken lady]

I'm kind of with fresh start.

What is your goal here? Mobility? Smaller living space? Lighter footprint?

Are the possessions you currently have costing more in stress/storage/upkeep than they are worth for what they add to your life? I'm a recovering hoarder, so I have to ask myself the opposite question constantly.

But I think that minimalism can be a problem taken to the extreme for the wrong reasons. Like anorexia. An overweight person might need to limit food intake or exercise for health, but an anorexic limits food intake or exercises to the point where it damages quality of life. I think minimalism can be taken to that point also.

[Kestra]

We have a few members, past and present who live along those lines. I think you'll find this is a very inclusive and open-minded group of people. Nothing is too extreme for us.

One member, Fawn (if I recall correctly) who hasn't been on the forums for a while, who wrote that book I recommended, would do an annual list of her 100 items. However I don't think she was including household items that she shared with her kids. Myself, I count everything that I'd still have if I didn't live with roommates, so my list includes quite a lot of kitchen stuff. I haven't finished it, but I think I'll be around 400 items. Not that there's one right way to do an item count. And it's only those of us who like that kind of thing who would even bother.

I agree with others about not getting rid of too much stuff, but I think you have a good handle on what improves your life and what does not.

As far as the car, of course I'm all for car-free, as long as you have alternative options for occasional use. You don't want to feel completely trapped because you sell your car. And the canoe and the car kind of go together, as it's hard to transport the one without the other. I think it'd be kind of sad if you gave up your canoe, but you could always get another one in the future. Would you be able to keep the canoe (and still use it sometimes) without owning the car? For the car it's about money (and hassle), but for the canoe it's portability vs. life enjoyment.

For other extreme stuff, have you heard of Jacob from Early Retirement Extreme? He's one of the best known people for reducing his expenses significantly while still having a pretty normal life. It definitely helps to have a partner who is completely onboard, as he did for a good part of his journey, I believe.

[Ultralight]

catherine:

Wow! So many good points and questions. Thank you. I am familiar with Peter Lawrence. Learning about his lifestyle, I think, contributed to my initial curiosity about extreme minimalism. I read Walden On Wheels last winter! It was so good! "Go for it!" :)

I had no idea that quote was in the bible. I have been meaning to read that cover-to-cover, though I am not a religious person at all.

I will openly say that I consciously and purposefully live simply in part because my parents are compulsive hoarders (and could be on one of those shows!). But it is more about living the like I want, on my terms, when possible.

The minimalism as means or minimalism as an end is probably the ultimate question. I think that going extreme might give me the time and grit to do the things I really want -- like go fishing (obviously from shore or in waders if I sell my canoe), but also to relax and to cultivate better relationships with friends. My dog is middle aged now -- my hobbies have often taken me away from him. So I'd like to spend more time with the pup. I'd really like to meditate daily, so freeing up time and grit through living even simpler might help facilitate that.

[Ultralight]

freshstart:

When my marriage ended and I was free to minimize as I pleased my first count of my possessions was 500-something. Now I am down to about 186, I think (I'll have to check my spreadsheet. haha). But there have been very few things that I sold, threw away, or donated that I needed again. One thing was a box fan, it cost me $25. Mistakes happen when simplifying and I try not to let them freeze me into a state of inaction because over all the vast, vast majority of the time I never need what I minimized. Which means I probably did not need it in the first place.

As for the bed... well, it is old and I had it during college and grad school. How can I put this delicately? It has been highly trafficked. haha Is that TMI? The bed needs replaced I think. Its best days are long gone.

Your point about keeping what I have rather than buying something new is well-taken though. I need to be especially watchful about the "You can buy minimalism" trap. The people who make that trap are crafty and want my money! haha
So I will think carefully. :)

[Ultralight]

Tammy:

Good point! And I bet that was a great adventure for your son.

[Ultralight]

Chicken lady:

I appreciate the words of caution. I will deliberate on them.

Mobility, a smaller living space, and a lighter footprint are all parts of the composite of reasons for my living simply and for this urge to take it to the edge.

If minimalism stopped facilitating my happiness and joy then I would ease off and reassess. But I still feel like there is more juice to be squeezed from the orange just as long as I am willing to squeeze with both hands.

But I will say what intrigues me most -- and profoundly -- is how you went into recovery from your hoarding. I'd really like to hear more about that.

[Ultralight]

Kestra:

I'd like to hear from Fawn. Too bad she is not around much anymore. :/

If the car goes, then the canoe goes. There is no other safe or reasonable way to haul it. Though from most places in the city I could ride a bicycle to one of my favorite fishing lakes. But if I sold the canoe and kept the car (for now) I could still fish from the shore in many lakes around. The canoe takes up a lot of space and there are paddles, an anchor, a soft rack to put it on the roof, etc.

I enjoy the simplicity of throwing on my waterproof boots and just putting my pole and tackle box in the hatchback and going to the lake. The canoe has to be loaded, unloaded, and reloaded on the roof each trip.

I am familiar with ERE -- very interesting site!

[Chicken lady]

I cry a lot. Seriously.

I'm not so much " in recovery" as actively recovering. Like the bear who went over the mountain.


15 years ago We had a basement flood. I lost of lot of possessions. I cried, cleaned up/ out some, and then filled the dining room (which had no windows, could be closed off from the house, and wouldn't flood!)


We moved - for a variety of reasons, i cried and I purged a lot of stuff in the service of that - no one could tell but me. I still filled the new basement and half a semi-finished pole barn.


My best friend went through a bad divorce and needed a place to live. We both cried and I cleared a lot of the pole barn. (it has a full bathroom) I'm sure it was still like living in a storage unit and I feel badly about that - it could have been much nicer.


My oldest child left for college, my husband was running out of patience - after 20 years!, and I found a book about stuff that actually helped me understand what was going on in my head and my life and I told everybody. And I cried a lot. And dh went on vacation alone for a week and my cousin came and I cleaned out half the basement.


My grandmother died. And my father - fearing the avalanche of stuff to end all episodes of hoarders - told my mother one in, one out. Dh thought that was a good plan. And I thinned out the things in my house to make room for the things of my grandmother's that I wanted and tried really hard to be as selective as possible. And I cried constantly.


And now, one kid has her own home, one has an apartment 9 months of the year, and one is in a dorm for the same time. We are embarking on an addition that will give us LIVING space over storage space, and the construction process involves removing the wall from the side of the basement where the last of the hoard is crouching.


I struggle, I get tired, I cry, and I try very hard to be honest with myself. It's two steps forward and one step back. But for the first time, I think the people around me believe I might make it.

[Kestra]

Wow, Chicken Lady, what an amazingly honest analysis of your situation. I wish you all the best in your struggle.

[Float On]

freshstart:



I need to be especially watchful about the "You can buy minimalism" trap. The people who make that trap are crafty and want my money! haha
So I will think carefully. :)


That is so true in the tiny house movement. The costs for a tiny house are huge...when an RV can be a lot less expensive, less hassle (less weight), and more room. $60,000+ for an 6x10 space? Really?

Course I'd love to give up my 1500 SF house/ 1/2 acre and live on a little houseboat. I still kayak around a lot of my favorite docks (with lower bay rents) and keep an eye on craigslist to see what's for sell. Can't convince the DH that that is the way we should go....yet.

[Float On]

Kestra:

The canoe has to be loaded, unloaded, and reloaded on the roof each trip.
!

Oh, if I had to load the kayaks to a car roof carrier....I'd probably give up and sell them. Love my little truck - toss in, strap, and go.

[Dhiana]

[QUOTE=UltraliteAngler;207778]
If the car goes, then the canoe goes. There is no other safe or reasonable way to haul it. Though from most places in the city I could ride a bicycle to one of my favorite fishing lakes. But if I sold the canoe and kept the car (for now) I could still fish from the shore in many lakes around. The canoe takes up a lot of space and there are paddles, an anchor, a soft rack to put it on the roof, etc.

I enjoy the simplicity of throwing on my waterproof boots and just putting my pole and tackle box in the hatchback and going to the lake. The canoe has to be loaded, unloaded, and reloaded on the roof each trip. /QUOTE]

I've seen quite a few people using a canoe/kayak trailer with their bicycle:
http://www.wicycle.com/index.php/products/boat-trailers/wike-woody-wagon-canoe-bicycle-trailer

You could then use your canoe as an essential tool to move your stuff vs. thinking of it as a burden that must be carried somehow from point A to point B.

[Ultralight]

Chicken lady:

Thank you for sharing that. I am certain it takes courage to share that. I am also certain it takes more courage to power into this recovery. More power to you!

As I mentioned, my parents are both compulsive hoarders. Neither of them will admit it. During the summer of 2013 my sister and I went back home (about 2.5 hours away from Columbus, OH where we both live). Our intention was to clean out a room or two in my parents' house. My dad had reached a tipping point where he could not keep up with the clutter or the maintenance. His health had gone downhill bad.

My dad was largely cooperative; he just went out into the yard with my brother-in-law so my BIL could chainsaw some fallen trees. This way he would not see what was taken out for trash or donation. But my mom was like a watchful hawk guarding the stacks of possessions, knick-knacks, mountains of old mail, etc.

This was the day I realized hoarding was a real mental illness. Before that I thought my parents were just lazy or something like that. As soon as my sister and I started putting things that were clearly trash into a trash bag my mom just went BERSERK! She started crying hysterically, yelling, and rooting through the trash bag we had started filling. Keep in mind that we also had bags for Goodwill and for stuff my sister and I were supposed to keep (though she and I decided ahead of time we'd donate any good stuff mom gave us to the needy).

My mom spent all day crying, yelling, saying the most mean and spiteful things to us I ever heard her say to anyone.

At the end of the day we got one carload of donation stuff and a few bags of trash. But the damage was done. My mom would not ever agree to let us help with cleaning again. My sister basically put the blinders on and was like: "I guess we'll deal with this when they die." And for me, I have just been trying to emotionally divest from the situation.

I am an "extreme" minimalist in many people's eyes. This is obviously in part due to my parents. My sister is an obsessive cleaner. When I catch fish with my BIL I'll filet the fish in their kitchen sometimes. And I know how to clean up! The health department and OSHA would probably give me an award! haha. But my poor sis, she'll maniacally go back and re-clean it all. She has even said to me: "I know it is already clean. But I have to do it again...because of mom."

[Ultralight]

Yeah, those fancy tiny houses really defeat their own purpose in many ways because the cost is so high. My buddy built his own tiny house -- fully equipped too -- for $11,000. Some builders can make them for $20k or $25k, which is reasonable. But still pricey to save up for if you're just a workin' man.

[SteveinMN]

I am an "extreme" minimalist in many people's eyes. This is obviously in part due to my parents. My sister is an obsessive cleaner. When I catch fish with my BIL I'll filet the fish in their kitchen sometimes. And I know how to clean up! The health department and OSHA would probably give me an award! haha. But my poor sis, she'll maniacally go back and re-clean it all. She has even said to me: "I know it is already clean. But I have to do it again...because of mom."
All of the behavior you mention falls along the obsessive-compulsive spectrum. Including (not to be unkind about it) your wish to be an extreme minimalist. Now, that is a spectrum, and many/most people with some OCD function somewhere between well and "just fine" despite their particular issue. But, given that history, you might want to examine your own wish to be an extreme minimalist in light of whether this is a preference, a preference taken to perhaps an unhealthful extreme, or guided more by becoming more of what your family members are not.

[Ultralight]

SteveinMN:

You know what, I like you! You don't pull any punches and yet you remain totally tactful. Are you a therapist or counselor in real life? I am being serious, not flippant.

Also: The extreme minimalist thing would probably be a one or two year experiment (like not having a cell phone, that is a two year experiment after having two iPhones at once or like learning to dance, it is a one year thing I'll reassess next year).
I do a lot of lifestyle experiments for short periods of time -- "a weekend of silence" where I didn't talk or The 11 Hour Meditation Challenge (11 hours of meditation in 11 days!) or a year without Facebook. There are others, but you get the idea -- I like lifestyle experiments. haha

[ApatheticNoMore]

Check out if sleeping on the folding bed actually works for a few weeks before getting rid of the old bed at least.

Hmm well yes I'm not the princess and the @#$# pea here, and I don't have back problems all the time, but I was sleeping on a 30+ year old bed (yes the bed was older than me) with the springs slowly deteriorating and more like a trapeze, and I got a new bed, and guess what, less waking up with back problems. astounding, who would have guessed it .... So yea sleeping on a comfortable bed can matter.

[Ultralight]

ApatheticNoMore:

That is actually a really good idea. I could do a little trial run. Let me consider that! Thanks.

[Tammy]

He loved it.

He now has a car as he learned that he enjoys rural life more than urban and a car is more necessary in that setting.

He just spent 3 weeks in Vietnam with 2 friends. He lives simply and works a lot - then every few months he takes a long break and often travels somewhere.

[Ultralight]

Sounds like a pretty good lifestyle!

[Chicken lady]

Ultralight angler, it's hard. And I'm really sorry your mom wasn't ready. I can see the effects it has had on my kids and I wish I had understood sooner. I'm happy to talk about it, especially if it helps anyone (hi, I'm chicken lady and I'm a hoarder) but it doesn't really fit this thread.

[Ultralight]

Would you mind if I open a thread on it? You can weigh in and contribute as you like.

I will say this. I have read a lot of articles and books on hoarding since that day at my mom and dad's house. And facing this the way you are, you are the exception. The rare exception...

[freshstart]

Wow, Chicken Lady, what an amazingly honest analysis of your situation. I wish you all the best in your struggle.

I second this! wow

[iris lilies]

I get how you would want to do this and probably can if you put your mind to it. But the part of minimalism I don't get is giving away possessions you need (your bed) and then spending money on a foldable mattress. Isn't it simpler and more pure to keep the few things you actually want/need, than going out and buying the minimalist version?

Actually, a mattress IS simpler as this discussion shows. It's much simpler t move a foldable mattress than a big ole bed frame box springs, and typical mattress.

of course minimalism can be carried to extremes, but that seldom happens in North America. The converse is far more likely.

[pony mom]

I often think that if I was unfortunate enough to lose everything I own in a fire or disaster, there is little I would replace. Clothing, HABA, some furniture, of course I'd need these things, and I could easily live without most of the other stuff. But would I be happy? I don't think so. Part of me wants to live extremely simply; the other part likes having things around to admire and enjoy.

There's probably a happy medium for you without trying to "keep up with the minimalists". If you're having trouble deciding whether to keep or get rid of your canoe, you shouldn't decide that right now. At some point it'll become clear and you'll do it without hesitation.

[Ultralight]

HABA?

[awakenedsoul]

I'm doing some of the things you mention. I've been car free for the past year. It's worked out fine. I've enjoyed it. I tried going car light for a year before doing it. Since my mom passed away, I will be picking up her car in the near future. It will be nice to have a car with low mileage, that is in excellent condition. Sometimes it's a drag not having a vehicle when I need to go somewhere like the vet, the doctor, or to visit someone several hours away. I've paid friends to take my dogs to the dog kennel, and paid shuttle services to take me to the airport. I've walked my dog to the vet in the hundred degree heat, even though we had the first appt. in the morning. I've learned that I can do it if I have to, but I'd like to have a car for those situations. I will probably still ride the bus most of the time, to save money.

I spend a lot of time with my dogs. I enjoy their company, and we go for walks every day. They spend most of their time sleeping, anyway. I also meditate daily. I've done that for thirty years, though. It's made a big difference in my life. I like having time to read, write, study, and practice my music. Sometimes I get a little lazy. I can take a nap if I'm tired. It's also convenient being able to go to the gym and take advantage of the facilities.

I think whatever makes you happy is best. Many people won't understand what you're doing. They might compare themselves to you, and tell you that you're too extreme. A lot of people get agitated when they find out that I retired early. I read ERE and that inspired me. I don't tell people anymore. I am still auditioning, and would love work in my field, but there are less opportunities for women my age. I still train and prepare, because it challenges and inspires me.

[Tammy]

Google tells me that HABA is "health and beauty aids", although this is the first time I've heard of that acronym.

[ToomuchStuff]

Actually, a mattress IS simpler as this discussion shows. It's much simpler t move a foldable mattress than a big ole bed frame box springs, and typical mattress.

of course minimalism can be carried to extremes, but that seldom happens in North America. The converse is far more likely.

Then rather then get rid of the whole thing, and getting new, it might be easier to reuse ones mattress, and make a Murphy bed where you use wall space for it and regain your floor space when not using it.

[pony mom]

Google tells me that HABA is "health and beauty aids", although this is the first time I've heard of that acronym.

That's it, sorry.

[Ultralight]

awakenedsoul:

Thank you for sharing! I like your style. :)

[awakenedsoul]

awakenedsoul:

Thank you for sharing! I like your style. :)

Thanks, UltralitAngler.

[freshstart]

. A lot of people get agitated when they find out that I retired early. I read ERE and that inspired me. I don't tell people anymore. I am still auditioning, and would love work in my field, but there are less opportunities for women my age. I still train and prepare, because it challenges and inspires me.

because they are jealous! enjoy it, that's like reaching one of the highest goals of frugalism/simplicity!

[Ultralight]

Okay, so I decided to put my canoe and the accoutrements on Craig's List. I am going to schedule a bulk pick up to throw away my old, clunker of a mattress and get a tri-fold memory foam. So I am moving ahead with the plan to try extreme minimalism.

[awakenedsoul]

because they are jealous! enjoy it, that's like reaching one of the highest goals of frugalism/simplicity!

When the economy tanked, I started reading about people who had retired early, to see how they did it. I was surprised to learn that most of them didn't have tons of money. They saved a large percentage of what they made, and they spent very little.

[awakenedsoul]

Okay, so I decided to put my canoe and the accoutrements on Craig's List. I am going to schedule a bulk pick up to throw away my old, clunker of a mattress and get a thi-fold memory foam. So I am moving ahead with the plan to try extreme minimalism.

I bet the canoe will sell quickly. I would love a canoe, but I live in the desert.

[Ultralight]

A canoe in the desert is just a really strange chair!

I used to live in the desert too -- Phoenix, AZ!

[freshstart]

When the economy tanked, I started reading about people who had retired early, to see how they did it. I was surprised to learn that most of them didn't have tons of money. They saved a large percentage of what they made, and they spent very little.

I was reading stuff like that, too. At 22 I started my 401k, later a Roth. I always "paid" those first so the money wasn't even in my hands to spend. I'm a single mom, a nurse, I was on track to retire early, not super early, but enough to make me feel like the effort was worth it. And I don't feel like I lost out on a lot in life by trying to save so hard, I was happy. If I can do it, someone with more personal finance experience could, as well. My plan went to hell when struck by illness. But all my efforts weren't for nothing, so far it looks like I can take out some each month if I have to and not touch the principle. Ideally though, I won't have to touch it until I'm much older. I so wish it hadn't turned out this way, I really want to know if I could've done it.

I have a 16 and 18 yr old and am trying slowly to teach them about personal finance. Complete FAIL with my son, last summer, he used the proceeds from his job for guitar stuff and Chipotle. I showed him how he had nothing to show for working and the amount he gave Chipotle disgusted me, I showed him just the Chipotle money would've given him a decent amount towards a car, he shrugged. Oy vey. But my daughter is a saver and frugal with the things she buys. Maybe I can redeem myself with her!

It must feel great to have reached your goal!

[Ultralight]

freshstart:

Not to sound contrarian, but if your son likes playing guitar and eating Chipotle burritos for dinner every day, I'd still say that is a pretty simple and affordable life. Those are simple, fairly affordable pleasures.

[Tammy]

Our three kids all are out of debt and happy - but along the way they spent lots of money on stuff. We let them. Didn't even argue. We figured that they can learn the value of a dollar by buying silly things when they're 15 or by buying too big of a house when they're 25. We were glad they did their silly spending when they were younger and the lessons less painful.

[freshstart]

I agreed at the start, let him make his own mistakes. He spent $15 on Chipotle every day, I think eating out every single day is stupid no matter how much you like it, even if it seems like a simple pleasure, however his choice and I gave input at the end. When he went back to school, he started expecting ME to fund Chipotle. I explained eating out every single day cannot be done on my budget. His simple pleasure, I agree with you, if that floats your boat no biggie, but a Senior in high school, with no job, no savings, no car expecting mommy to fund it, NO WAY. And then he decided to not go to college and "chill" for a year. In my book, this needs some tough love to show him how hard it is to live on minimum wage. Not to be mean, but teach him some valuable lessons. Charge something for room and board, pay for his own car and insurance, clothes, work full time, etc. Make the year of "chill", that I can see easily turning into years of "chill", not too comfortable. But last year he moved in with my ex and my ex is not on the same page. Plans to buy him a car, no room and board and is letting him work less than half time. And guess who pays for daily Chipotle, even though he has a nominal job? His DAD.

I'm not ok with a child of mine, now an "adult", cruising through life being handed cash by his dad, working part time at a crappy job. Yes, he's young, has years to fix these rather little mistakes. But if the cash cow keeps producing, how likely is it that he will go to college? or learn a trade? or ever have a job that can even fund his high rollin' Chipotle lifestyle? At least, I know he can't afford beer and drugs, lol.

I hear ya, I really do, he's not a meth head, he did well in school. Is Chipotle every day that big a deal? Probably not. But it gives some insight to where his head is at that he expects that money from his dad to go there everyday with his friends who did start college. It's the whole picture I don't like. But I have no say anymore, maybe I was too strict about the expectations if you choose to "chill". Maybe my ex, more laid back, maybe his approach is ok for now.

[Ultralight]

freshstart:

I did not know all the back story. I was imagining that your son just worked, grabbed a burrito for dinner, and then played guitar all evening.

I think you have a good handle on the situation. It'll probably work itself out eventually.

[freshstart]

Our three kids all are out of debt and happy - but along the way they spent lots of money on stuff. We let them. Didn't even argue. We figured that they can learn the value of a dollar by buying silly things when they're 15 or by buying too big of a house when they're 25. We were glad they did their silly spending when they were younger and the lessons less painful.

there's a small chance I may be controlling! lol Although, I've never felt the need to say to my daughter the things I said to Adam. She's got a path all figured out. Adam, I just can't understand being offered a free college education (he was starting at community college) and turning it down, then expecting a life of leisure. I know I'm probably overreacting, he just pushes my buttons when he turns down college. My parents came from nothing, my dad had multiple jobs and went to night school, my mom worked when he was home. Sending me to college was a big deal and I started mowing lawns and babysitting, then jobs, anything so I could help fund it. Once I was working, I paid for my splurges with my money It's almost impossible for me to wrap my brain around turning down an education. But these are MY issues, he's at Dad's and I stay out of it.

[freshstart]

freshstart:

I did not know all the back story. I was imagining that your son just worked, grabbed a burrito for dinner, and then played guitar all evening.

I think you have a good handle on the situation. It'll probably work itself out eventually.

sorry I overreacted, The Chipotle Burrito sparked this mess, lol

[Tammy]

It helped that my husband and I were on the same page with child raising. The kids couldn't just go live with the other parent ...

[freshstart]

yes that helps a ton. I'm all for co-parenting as divorced parents, my ex, sadly, is not

[SteveinMN]

SteveinMN:

You know what, I like you! You don't pull any punches and yet you remain totally tactful. Are you a therapist or counselor in real life? I am being serious, not flippant.
Thanks. I'm a photographer and a long-time computer geek. Never been a therapist or more than a bar-room counselor. And I've had a lot of experience with mental illness in families. :)

I'm mostly a big fan of the examined life. I like to know why I do the things I do and feel the way about things/situations I do. IME responding to symptoms doesn't often address my core issues. Not saying you're just responding to symptoms. I'm just pointing out that sometimes the reaction of two people to a situation (lots of stuff) has as its root issue the same thing (ownership/presence of stuff).

[Ultralight]

SteveinMN:

I agree we have to treat the core issues of any kind of illness, if possible. Though if I wasn't having fun with extreme minimalism, I wouldn't do it! :)