Recovering hoarders? [Archive] - Page 2

Ultralight

6-3-16, 3:53pm

I just had a thought that I should look up some handyman type organizing systems online and print out some photos to show dh and seeing if he can build himself one to organize his things. With handyman stuff there are so many little bits and pieces to keep track off - different types of nails, screws, drills, bits, etc.... And he does use them, in fact he built me three beautiful potting tables a few months ago using nothing but what we had laying around. A lot of what he keeps is handy to have - except I can never find it amongst all his stuff. But he can. Usually.

I can also check out the hardware store and see how they store their stuff!

A friend of mine is a handyman and...wait for it...wait for it...a minimalist!

So he keeps a good-sized basic set of tools at home. And for everything else he uses the local tool library. His wife is happy about this and says he goes to the tool library once a week. Not too shabby! And the tool librarian organizes the whole place so he doesn't have to.

Geila

6-3-16, 3:56pm

A tool library? A tool librarian? Where do these magical things exist?

Chicken lady

6-3-16, 3:59pm

A saver can quit anytime he wants.

I'm back to the alcohol analogy because it's what I know - my dad is a heavy drinker. My uncle is an alchoholic. My dad actually drinks more than my uncle, but it doesn't negatively impact his life. Dad actually quit drinking completely for months at one point because he was trying to lose a lot of weight and it was the easiest place to dump calories. My uncle has quit drinking many times, and lost a business, three houses, two wives, a boat, a job, and most of his relationships.

Chicken lady

6-3-16, 3:59pm

My dh's "tool library" is a guy named Craig.

Geila

6-3-16, 4:03pm

UA - I also like what you said about the great sewing quest perhaps taking away from the things that I enjoy doing right now.

Years ago I had a roommate who was really into scrapbooking with photos and she made these fantastic albums so I decided I would too. I bought a bunch of very expensive stuff and almost 20 years later they are still in their original packaging in a plastic box where most of my photos are kept. I still haven't gotten around to making a wedding album and we've been married for 15 years. A while back I decided that I would get to the photo albums when I'm ready and if that time never comes, it's ok. The photos and the darned scrapbooking stuff is all kept in one bin in the closet. It doesn't take up much space and I always know where it is if I need it.

I'll get to the sewing projects when I'm ready. Thanks UA!!! :)

Ultralight

6-3-16, 4:06pm

A tool library? A tool librarian? Where do these magical things exist?

This is the link to the one near where I live. I don't use it though. I have few things that require tools, just an itty-bitty tool set for my bike and the multi-tool on my key chain. haha

But look it over, it is a neat idea!

http://www.rtcentralohio.org/tool-library/

Ultralight

6-3-16, 4:06pm

My dh's "tool library" is a guy named Craig.

Last name List?

Chicken lady

6-3-16, 4:14pm

Nope. Actual guy. Named Craig. He even has a fire truck.

Ultralight

6-3-16, 4:18pm

Nope. Actual guy. Named Craig. He even has a fire truck.

bae's real name is Craig?

Geila

6-3-16, 4:24pm

A saver can quit anytime he wants.

This is helpful. Thanks Chicken Lady!

A few years ago I realized that yard sales and thrift stores always had dirt cheap linens that I found hard to resist adding to my collection. So I stopped going to yard sales and thrift stores. I still have my collection but I haven't added anything to it in a long time. Likewise, a while back I told dh that the amount of containers he was keeping was beginning to bother me and he stopped collecting any more of them. He hasn't gotten rid of any of the ones he was, but the stash has not grown. And yesterday when I told him I was getting rid of a bunch of boxes, including some banker's boxes which he really likes to keep, he was okay with it.

Geila

6-3-16, 4:25pm

This is the link to the one near where I live. I don't use it though. I have few things that require tools, just an itty-bitty tool set for my bike and the multi-tool on my key chain. haha

But look it over, it is a neat idea!

http://www.rtcentralohio.org/tool-library/

This is cool. I'm gonna see if they have any of these around here. Dh would be stoked.

Chicken lady

6-3-16, 4:47pm

Bae has a fire truck?

Teacher Terry

6-3-16, 4:53pm

People only change when the pain of changing is less then the pain of staying the same. That is the reason it is very hard to changes fundamental things about yourself. Not impossible but very, very difficult.

Geila

6-4-16, 12:37pm

Ultralight

6-6-16, 2:17pm

I took someone to my parents' house this past weekend. They went inside.

Chicken lady

6-6-16, 2:21pm

How did that go?

Ultralight

6-6-16, 2:38pm

Well, the girlfriend with whom I split up with some time back wanted to try again. So I agreed to try again. Obviously I have mixed feelings about the situation.

But nonetheless, I was going back "home" so I asked if she wanted to come along. She said she wanted to. I also offered to take her someplace yummy for lunch.

We drove up there and stopped by a place called The Blue Collar Bistro, which is about 15 minutes from my parents' house in a nearby small town. They make a lot of surprisingly delicious foods. We got Lobster man-n-cheese in a bread bowl and a Greek salad.

Then we went to my old neighborhood and to my parents' house. My parents saw us coming and both sat out on the front porch, which is like a non-verbal way of saying: "You can't come inside."

So we stood out front and talked to them a while. But I had go to the bathroom so I asked my dad: "Can I go in to the bathroom? I had been on the road a few hours."

He let me in.

Afterward I told my ladyfriend to go in and said: "Hey mom, can "T" go in and use the bathroom?"

My mom reluctantly agreed. She said: "There really isn't any running water up there. So don't try to flush. I will flush it later, with a bucket and such."

I took T inside and showed her to the upstairs where the bathroom is.

She went up there but could not bring herself to actually go, so she just waited a couple minutes and then came back down and out. She said that after she came back downstairs she and my dad made eye contact and that my dad looked deeply embarrassed and ashamed. T said this made her feel really bad; it was depressing to her.

Teacher Terry

6-6-16, 3:33pm

That is horrible that they can't even flush the toilet-ugh! Glad that you and your DG are giving it another go. Sometimes a split is just what is needed to form a permanent relationship. You can step back to see the issues and do better the 2nd time around.

Ultralight

6-6-16, 3:35pm

Sometimes a split is just what is needed to form a permanent relationship. You can step back to see the issues and do better the 2nd time around.

Thanks. It is like our fourth split. She has each time contacted me and convinced me to try again.

Teacher Terry

6-6-16, 3:39pm

Ihope you guys discuss what has went wrong and how you can fix it to your mutual satisfaction. It sounds like you love each other a lot.

Ultralight

6-6-16, 3:41pm

Ihope you guys discuss what has went wrong and how you can fix it to your mutual satisfaction. It sounds like you love each other a lot.

We discussed things. But nothing much ever gets resolved. I am dubious of it working out in the long run. But she seems adamant about trying yet again, so I am willing to go along with it and see what happens.

Teacher Terry

6-6-16, 3:56pm

Maybe a professional could help you guys get it figured out.

Ultralight

6-6-16, 3:58pm

Maybe a professional could help you guys get it figured out.

We have considered it. But I would want to go to a secular therapist. She'd want to go to a Christian one. So we did not get that far.

Teacher Terry

6-6-16, 3:59pm

Flip a coin:)) Indecision is really a decision. Either would be better then not using one.

ApatheticNoMore

6-6-16, 4:08pm

I do wonder if you guys really do have too little in common (I know all couples have their differences and all that but ...). But good luck.

Ultralight

6-6-16, 4:08pm

... good luck.

Thanks. :)

Chicken lady

6-6-16, 5:44pm

Have you talked to her about where you come from? I'm guessing this is the first time she has seen it?

Ultralight

6-7-16, 8:57am

Have you talked to her about where you come from? I'm guessing this is the first time she has seen it?

I have told her about my old neighborhood and I have talked to her extensively about my parents' hoarding. But I could kind of tell that maybe she did not quite "get it."

For instance, a week or two ago she said: "Well, why didn't you just clean the house?"

Oh... what an unfortunate trap that is for children of hoarders. I explained: "I was the kid in the house, not the adult. And there was no way I could keep pace anyway. I had school and wanted a life of my own too."

I also told her how once, when I was about 14, I went berserk in my room and ripped up the nasty carpet, tore the wallpaper down, and threw all the stuff my mom hoarded into my closet out into the hallway so I could have my closet back -- and my space back in general. So I made my room a little oasis in the hoard. Like "No stuff may enter here!"

Of course, once I moved out that room was then totally hoarded again.

I took her there so maybe she would see why I have to live in a clutter-free home. I wanted the impact of seeing this massive and disgusting hoard to really sink in.

I will say this. When my sis found out that I took T to the hoard she was none too pleased, to put it lightly.

She said: "I have been with D (her hubby) for 12 years! And it took 10 years for me to even let him in the house, let alone get past the living room. This is NOT OKAY!"

Ya know, that sort of reaction. haha

catherine

6-7-16, 9:17am

I have told her about my old neighborhood and I have talked to her extensively about my parents' hoarding. But I could kind of tell that maybe she did not quite "get it."

For instance, a week or two ago she said: "Well, why didn't you just clean the house?"

Oh... what an unfortunate trap that is for children of hoarders. I explained: "I was the kid in the house, not the adult. And there was no way I could keep pace anyway. I had school and wanted a life of my own too."

It's frustrating when people don't fathom the reality. Your response "I was the kid in the house, not the adult," is spot on. Her question seems guilt-provoking where there should be none. Unfortunately children absorb that shame without any help--whether their parents are hoarders, alcoholics, or pole dancers. Your compulsion for the minimalist life is a very understandable response to your childhood.

iris lilies

6-7-16, 9:20am

UL i am glad that you have a good relationship with your sister who is a rational adult. She can validate your childhood experinces so you know that you are not crazy.

Ultralight

6-7-16, 9:24am

UL i am glad that you have a good relationship with your sister who is a rational adult. She can validate your childhood experinces so you know that you are not crazy.

Thanks. And yup! She is a good one. :)

Chicken lady

6-7-16, 10:59am

Ultralight

6-7-16, 11:41am

Why is it not ok? This is a formative influence on your personality. If you want a long term relationship with this woman, she is going to have to be able to really understand you.

i think your sister was taking a big risk hiding the house from her husband. But then, I'm a "throw all the crazy out upfront" person.

It is not okay, because my sis would prefer to keep the hoard hidden. It is shameful for her.

She also just would not want to subject another person to such a disgusting situation, even if just for a moment.

As for T, I wanted her to see this because I have a zero clutter policy. And for a good reason.

Geila

6-7-16, 1:33pm

Ultralight

6-7-16, 1:42pm

UA - did you talk to T about how she felt after seeing your parent's place?

Also, I totally get why you would have a zero clutter policy. But doesn't that take things to the other extreme? Would you ever consider compromising a little and seeing if you can learn to be comfortable with a more balanced approach? The middle path, as the Buddha says? You'll never be like your mom or dad, and you don't have to keep such a rigid hold on yourself to prevent it from happening. It's not gonna happen. You're not them.

I asked her about how she felt about it. She just said:

"It smells so bad of cat pee."

And...

"It makes me want to clean out my basement."

But I don't think it had the impact that I had hoped.

I actually think my path is the middle path. I have a car, a bicycle, a bunch of fishing gear (pole, wader, boots, tackle box, etc.), plenty of clothes for most any occasion, a coffee table, a laptop, a crock pot, and so on.

My apartment has a dishwasher, W/D, a fridge, HVAC, full bath, stove, and so forth.

And I have plenty of silverware and cooking utensils and bowls, etc. now too.

I am getting a used kitchen table that sits four people. Yet I will still have less than two hundred possessions.

So I feel like I am on the middle path. I mean, why have stuff you don't use or like?

herbgeek

6-7-16, 2:00pm

So I feel like I am on the middle path

Someone on a middle path likely wouldn't be quite so compelled to continually count the number of items he/she owns. :D

Ultralight

6-7-16, 2:02pm

Someone on a middle path likely wouldn't be quite so compelled to continually count the number of items he/she owns. :D

Would you say the same thing of counting calories? Or of the dollars and cents that come in and out of your life?

Chicken lady

6-7-16, 3:07pm

Yes.

At some point you develop healthy eating habits, reach a stable weight that works for you, and stop counting calories. - it's enough to feel healthy and know that your clothes are comfortable.

at some point you become comfortable with your lifestyle and spending habits see that you are living within your means and making progress toward your goals, and don't need to write down every penny, you are ok with just knowing you spent the $20 in your wallet on spontaneous odds and ends you stuck it in there to cover. And if you actually dropped 7 cents while you were on the tilt a whirl, it doesn't matter.

i'm going to get better, and then I'm going to throw away the twist ties without even noticing.

Ultralight

6-7-16, 3:14pm

At some point you develop healthy eating habits, reach a stable weight that works for you, and stop counting calories. - it's enough to feel healthy and know that your clothes are comfortable.

This might work for some people. But having a spreadsheet with all my stuff in it, that I update once in a while when I toss or acquire something works for me.

Some people might need to count calories for life, be super careful about what they eat, and weigh themselves often. Remember, only about 3% of people who were every 50lbs.+ overweight will ever lose the weight and keep it off for 5+ years. They often flake out on their good habits.

My spreadsheet of possessions has helped me keep my good habits!

at some point you become comfortable with your lifestyle and spending habits see that you are living within your means and making progress toward your goals, and don't need to write down every penny, you are ok with just knowing you spent the $20 in your wallet on spontaneous odds and ends you stuck it in there to cover. And if you actually dropped 7 cents while you were on the tilt a whirl, it doesn't matter.

Um... maybe that would work for some folks. But for others, they might need to keep using their Mint account or their YMOYL graph on the wall/little note book of expenses.

i'm going to get better, and then I'm going to throw away the twist ties without even noticing.

I do hope you get better.

Teacher Terry

6-7-16, 3:22pm

The only way I have been able to keep my weight off is to weigh daily and count calories, etc. As soon as i stop doing that I get fat. So I did that a few times and no more. Some might think it is excessive but it works for me. So counting I do not do but it works for UL. WE are all a little crazy in our own ways:)) I am glad you took your GF to see it because it has helped to shape who you are.

herbgeek

6-7-16, 3:34pm

But having a spreadsheet with all my stuff in it, t

I suppose it works for you. My perspective from what you have shared here is that you are just as attached to things as your hoarder family, albeit from different angles. For a hoarder, its having such an excess that things get in the way of people. For you, it seems you have removed so many things from your life its getting in the way of people. Different sides of the same coin. I've heard all kinds of challenges in reducing what you own, even giving away your kayak. I think what folks mean about a middle path is enjoying the material things in life that support your goals. Not obsessing over them, or endlessly counting/cataloging them, but allowing them to fade into the background. Because things aren't that important.

As you say to Zoe Girl, you decide, but just throwing it out there for consideration.

Ultralight

6-7-16, 3:56pm

I suppose it works for you.

So far so good!

My perspective from what you have shared here is that you are just as attached to things as your hoarder family, albeit from different angles.

I dunno about that. I am not attached to much that I own.

For a hoarder, its having such an excess that things get in the way of people. For you, it seems you have removed so many things from your life its getting in the way of people. Different sides of the same coin.

I dispute this. Here is why:

Yesterday evening my significant other came over. We had a little fish fry and walked my dog through a nearby park. Then we enjoyed a couple slices of watermelon. If she had not come over I would have probably gone to an atheist meeting I usually attend every other Monday.

Tonight my friend Jeff comes over. We are going cycling and then grabbing some Indian food. We do this once per month. If he was not coming over I would have gone to a Recovering From Religion support group I attend once a month to just be there as people make their way to atheism.

Tomorrow I attend my voluntary simplicity class with a dozen other folks who are interested in simplifying their lives. I am facilitating the class. I have facilitated two of these classes before. I am still in contact with many of those folks. I also took this class before then. I still hang out with folks from that class at least once a month.

Thursday and Friday I will probably just chill out with Harlan.

Saturday I am going to an atheist meditation event. I will also probably spend time with my significant other.

Sunday I am taking a walk at a park with a minimalist friend of mine who came to some life-altering realizations recently and wants my opinion of the situation. Our minimalist meeting is not for another couple weeks and she does not want to wait.

As you can see, I am very social. On June 18th I host an atheist canoeing trip. I host three or four of these each summer.

These are just a handful of examples. So no need to worry about me being anti-social or some such. De-stuffing my life has given me more space to be social!

I've heard all kinds of challenges in reducing what you own, even giving away your kayak.

I have reduced what I own to what I need and some of what I really like. And I am not giving away my canoe. I am selling it. I don't have a place to store it around here, certainly not at my apartment. And the long drives to get it and then go to the lake suck much of the fun out of fishing. I hate driving! This and other costs were really squeezing me. So in place of fishing I have gotten more into cycle commuting and I found a way to cycle to one of my favorite fishing spots, where I will fish from the bank.

I think what folks mean about a middle path is enjoying the material things in life that support your goals. Not obsessing over them, or endlessly counting/cataloging them, but allowing them to fade into the background. Because things aren't that important.

I do enjoy the material things in life that support my goals. I have fished like a wild man for the past 4 years. I have been cycling to work and all over the place since I moved to my new place. I use the W/D and the dishwasher at my apartment. I use the AC! haha

Endlessly counting? LOL

I add or subtract something to my spreadsheet like once or twice a month, maybe.

Stuff doesn't fade into the background if:

1. You just let it pile up. Then it closes in on you.
2. If all the stuff you have is the stuff you really like and use often. Then it is in the forefront of your favorite activities.

As you say to Zoe Girl, you decide, but just throwing it out there for consideration.

Bring up anything you like. Make suggestion if you want. I am open.

Ultralight

6-8-16, 1:43pm

Btw, why is it telling that I don't like people?

The research on Compulsive Hoarding Disorder shows that people who suffer from this mental illness tend to attach emotionally to physical possessions rather than to people/relationships they have with people.

My parents are both clannish. They hide themselves away from most people, except a few folks in their little town. They are happier (or seemingly so) to spend time restocking their camper van with stuff from Wal-Mart or with going to some far-flung place to shop for some odd item or just churning their hoard in one way or another than they are to engage socially, in a genuine and deep way, with friends or even family.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 10:13am

Actually, I have deep and rich emotional relationships with people. But no, not very many people. I'm simply a strong introvert. People in quantity or duration exhaust me. But I would far rather spend the day on my porch with one good friend than doing anything that involves leaving home and getting a new stuff. I had a fantastic time at my daughter's wedding Saturday night, but I avoided most of the guests I didn't know (groom's side) and it took me until yesterday afternoon to recover enough to go to the feed store and have to speak to the guy who sells me feed.

i do enjoy spending time with my stuff when I am recovering from people though. The stuff is so quiet and still and demands so little of me. The stuff I have emotional connections to is related to people though. I am emotionally connected to the stuff because it triggers a sense of connection or cascade of thoughts or memories related to a person.

Example - my great grandfather died when I was ten. I remember him only as an old man who hugged me and made me laugh and told me stories. But I have his scythe. And I love using it, because it makes me think of him as a young man on his farm and the stories I heard.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 12:09pm

This is all very intriguing to me. :)

Actually, I have deep and rich emotional relationships with people. But no, not very many people. I'm simply a strong introvert. People in quantity or duration exhaust me. But I would far rather spend the day on my porch with one good friend than doing anything that involves leaving home and getting a new stuff. I had a fantastic time at my daughter's wedding Saturday night, but I avoided most of the guests I didn't know (groom's side) and it took me until yesterday afternoon to recover enough to go to the feed store and have to speak to the guy who sells me feed.

i do enjoy spending time with my stuff when I am recovering from people though. The stuff is so quiet and still and demands so little of me. The stuff I have emotional connections to is related to people though. I am emotionally connected to the stuff because it triggers a sense of connection or cascade of thoughts or memories related to a person.

Example - my great grandfather died when I was ten. I remember him only as an old man who hugged me and made me laugh and told me stories. But I have his scythe. And I love using it, because it makes me think of him as a young man on his farm and the stories I heard.

I am also an introvert. Lots of social interaction will exhaust me as well. I then like to go do something alone -- fish, a bike ride, or read a book. Those are examples.

You say you like to spend time with your stuff to recoup from being with people. This is what I'd like you to illustrate more for me. Most introverts need time alone to recover from socializing. Why would you recovery be more about having than doing or being?

I can only really speak for myself, but stuff does not seem to trigger a sense of connection.

Brian Johnson, former singer for AC/DC is a major car collector. I saw a show he hosted about cars. He got into an old, old car that was the same model as his first car. He got this faraway eyed look on his face and said: "It is all coming back to me now... me mates from school, Billy and Sam..."

A place can trigger memories for me, or at least emotions. And activities certainly can.

At the moment I am getting into joyriding on my bike. When I see my bike at home I think: "I'd like to pedal down to the river and ride the path."

But the bike is merely a conduit. It is essential but I have no real emotion for it.

For me I see the map as mostly insignificant in comparison to the territory.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 12:29pm

I don't really want to "do" much when I'm tired. So maybe someone would watch a movie, but that's more motion and talking, and people-y stuff.

I washed all the table cloths and folded them up and washed the mugs from brunch and thought about the people who made them and the people who used them, and ordered them pleasingly in my cabinet, arranged all the not-yet-opened wedding gifts attractively, set the flowers out around the house, and washed the mason jars and lined them back up in the cabinet, and it all gave me a sense of order and comfort and serenity. Spending time with stuff.

another day I might turn out the yarn cabinet and sort skeins and daydream about projects, and then choose something, settle the rest back, and sit on the porch and knit.

i like to rearrange the dolls and knick knacks when I dust, to change out seasonal decorations, to have things around me I find interesting and attractive. I don't like bare walls and empty spaces.

i would also like to read a book, sometimes when I don't have a new book though, I enjoy browsing through old favorites to choose something. I like the tactile sensations of a real book. I love being in the library surrounded by books too, but then, libraries require leaving home, and are so often occupied by people.....

and that car thing, that's exactly it. The thing triggers the memory so clearly.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 12:42pm

I washed all the table cloths and folded them up and washed the mugs from brunch and thought about the people who made them and the people who used them, and ordered them pleasingly in my cabinet, arranged all the not-yet-opened wedding gifts attractively, set the flowers out around the house, and washed the mason jars and lined them back up in the cabinet, and it all gave me a sense of order and comfort and serenity. Spending time with stuff.

another day I might turn out the yarn cabinet and sort skeins and daydream about projects, and then choose something, settle the rest back, and sit on the porch and knit.

i like to rearrange the dolls and knick knacks when I dust, to change out seasonal decorations, to have things around me I find interesting and attractive. I don't like bare walls and empty spaces.

i would also like to read a book, sometimes when I don't have a new book though, I enjoy browsing through old favorites to choose something. I like the tactile sensations of a real book. I love being in the library surrounded by books too, but then, libraries require leaving home, and are so often occupied by people.....

and that car thing, that's exactly it. The thing triggers the memory so clearly.

When you are tired, like really tired, from socializing, do you ever just take a nap?

Why do you suppose you don't like bare walls or empty spaces?

Do you feel this way outdoors too?

The book thing is interesting. I am a librarian by trade. And I knew lots of folks in library school that loved real books -- not Nooks or whatever. But me though, the book is just a conduit for a story. I like real books because I can focus on them better. But when I am done with the book I have virtually no interest in it anymore.

What makes you want to keep a book?

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 1:24pm

Ultralight

6-14-16, 1:28pm

Sometimes I nap, but often I really just want quiet and stillness while my brain conciously processes things. Meditation is too much quiet and still ness - so "puttering" with stuff works well.

Outdoors is FULL of stuff! Trees and rocks, and water and plants and even bugs and birds. I love outside stuff too! Weeding is just as good as puttering, but physically more tiring.

i like to re read stories, like remembering experiences or revisiting a favorite place or activity (ever want to ride the same trail again?). And I am very sensory, I love the tactile properties of books.

For a moment, just as a thought exercise, tell me... Do you think hoarding makes you happier?
Forget about your hubby's issue with it. Forget about your kids' issue with it. Forget about society's, social workers' psychologists' problems with it.

If you could hoard to your heart's content with all the storage bins, barns, garages, closets, and extra-rooms would you do it?

Geila

6-14-16, 1:38pm

i do enjoy spending time with my stuff when I am recovering from people though. The stuff is so quiet and still and demands so little of me.

This is a really interesting perspective. I feel the complete opposite - extra stuff makes me feel suffocated and stressed out. The stuff feels heavy and demanding to me; demanding of time, mental and physical energy, physical and visual space so that the room feels like it's closing in on me, etc... When I'm faced with extra stuff I feel as if I'm carrying it physically and emotionally. And the burden feels too heavy and draining.

I'm an ENFP which is the most introverted of the extroverts and I do have a need for alone time and usually what makes me happy is gardening or being with my pets, listing to a relaxing tape, etc. I find those experiences refreshing and soothing in the way that you describe being with your things.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 1:41pm

I feel the complete opposite - extra stuff makes me feel suffocated and stressed out. The stuff feels heavy and demanding to me; demanding of time, mental and physical energy, physical and visual space so that the room feels like it's closing in on me, etc... When I'm faced with extra stuff I feel as if I'm carrying it physically and emotionally. And the burden feels too heavy and draining.

Amen!

ApatheticNoMore

6-14-16, 1:56pm

It might be some kind of nesting impulse. Most men probably wouldn't get it :). But really I suspect it may be a bit of a feminine trait. It's a desire for one's house (or apartment or condo or whatever) to be solace and hiding from what seems a very dangerous and uncertain world (that one must otherwise interact with and sometimes a great deal). And so there is an impulse for it to be nice and filled with nice comforting things.

Now I also have an impulse not to have things, but that is mostly for one reason: because it's easier to move that way and ugh I'm always thinking about moving all the time. So these impulses might counterbalance a lot.

I like outside but that's not always available, work hours too long on workdays, can just walk around the block but have to drive to really get any where more interesting to walk etc..

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 2:01pm

UA, I think I would reach a point where I said "enough". It would just be well outside of normal. Right now my "stuff" problem (my personal stuff problem, not my social/family stuff problem) is lack of space - either appropriate storage space or the ability to use the space I have. Dh likes his space to be full of air. (We've had this conversation - me: "but you aren't using this half of the shelf." Him: "I'm using it to store air. You like to be surrounded by things, I like to be surrounded by air.")

for example, dh doesn't mind if I put one doll and two pillows on the guest bed when we do not have a guest. I would prefer 5 pillows of different sizes, three dolls, and a quilt folded at the foot with a stuffed animal on it. Then I would sit cross legged in the middle with papers and books and magazines spread around me and write lesson plans. Also I would need colored pencils. And index cards, and paper clips, and some examples, and I would need to be able to see all of these things. And I would need to leave them there when I left and not have anybody clean them up so that I could pick up my train of thought where I left off when I came back - a day, or a week, or a month, or six months later.

you know Sherlock Holmes' "mind palace"? I build mine around me.

Right now I am choosing to sit not at the nice clean dining table on the nice clean porch, but in the middle of the unmade bed in the messiest room of the house, surrounded by baskets of laundry. It feels cozy.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 2:07pm

It might be some kind of nesting impulse. Most men probably wouldn't get it :). But really I suspect it may be a bit of a feminine trait. It's a desire for one's house (or apartment or condo or whatever) to be solace and hiding from what seems a very dangerous and uncertain world (that one must otherwise interact with and sometimes a great deal). And so there is an impulse for it to be nice and filled with nice comforting things.

I like my space at home, my apartment, to be a space of solace too. Absolutely! That is why I like it uncluttered and have a zero clutter policy. haha

The things I do have are comforting. I like lounging. haha
Lounging around is something I often do at home, in solace, with my pup. Just kick back on a bean bag chair, stare into space, and relax.

But I am indeed interested in this "nesting" impulse. I have heard numerous women talk about it.

ANM, do you ever think of moving to a different part of the country?

Ultralight

6-14-16, 2:11pm

UA, I think I would reach a point where I said "enough". It would just be well outside of normal. Right now my "stuff" problem (my personal stuff problem, not my social/family stuff problem) is lack of space - either appropriate storage space or the ability to use the space I have. Dh likes his space to be full of air. (We've had this conversation - me: "but you aren't using this half of the shelf." Him: "I'm using it to store air. You like to be surrounded by things, I like to be surrounded by air.")

You are joking or being sincere? The issue is that you don't have room for your stuff? I can't tell if you are jerking my chain...

Question: Describe to me your "enough" and what sort of facilities you'd need to house your enough-stuff. I am intrigued.

for example, dh doesn't mind if I put one doll and two pillows on the guest bed when we do not have a guest. I would prefer 5 pillows of different sizes, three dolls, and a quilt folded at the foot with a stuffed animal on it. Then I would sit cross legged in the middle with papers and books and magazines spread around me and write lesson plans. Also I would need colored pencils. And index cards, and paper clips, and some examples, and I would need to be able to see all of these things. And I would need to leave them there when I left and not have anybody clean them up so that I could pick up my train of thought where I left off when I came back - a day, or a week, or a month, or six months later.

Maddening. LOL

you know Sherlock Holmes' "mind palace"? I build mine around me.

Not familiar...

Right now I am choosing to sit not at the nice clean dining table on the nice clean porch, but in the middle of the unmade bed in the messiest room of the house, surrounded by baskets of laundry. It feels cozy.

I don't know how you do it. I really don't.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 2:39pm

The mind palace thing would probably be simpler if you googled it. Smithsonian had a good article.

i'm being sincere. For example, I have reached the point where there are very few additional books I wish to own, and sometimes I'm ready to let go of them, so if I had to guess, three more 6 ft tall 3 foot wide bookshelves, and I'd never have another book in a pile. For clothes I would need all of our closet and probably one of the guest room closets - everything would be easy to see and use. Sewing/fiber arts would need a good sized bedroom, although, if I had the space to leave the projects out, I would work on them more often, use up more supplies, and then need less space. when my spinning wheel was actually set up on the porch all summer with bags of alpaca, I made a whole bunch of yarn, because I could just spin for 15 minutes. But dh was annoyed because there was always fuzz everywhere.

once dh told me I could have as many chickens as I wanted. I built extra coops, ordered a bunch of chicks, and I now know, 100 chickens is too many. 45 is about right. I tore down the extra coops and turned the space into goat stalls. If I ever find out how many goats is too many, maybe I'll let you know. But I'm pretty sure milking 6 at a time is plenty! Maybe I could handle 8, but not for too long.

and when I pack stuff neatly away the way dh likes it, I tend to acquire more stuff, but when I have it out where I can see and touch it all the time, I have less interest in more stuff. I think part of the reason the doll collection has gotten so much larger the last year is because dh took the shelf down and the dolls got mostly packed away for months, and my hoarder brain thought I didn't have very many.

so, if I could have my space full of stuff and my stuff out on surfaces/shelves in my space, I would probably reach equillibrium. I would not keep wanting "another room" nor would I build a Collier (sp?) maze. I'm a sentimental/utilitarian/anti waste hoarder who likes living in a bower. (Google also bower bird)

Ultralight

6-14-16, 2:52pm

i'm being sincere. For example, I have reached the point where there are very few additional books I wish to own, and sometimes I'm ready to let go of them, so if I had to guess, three more 6 ft tall 3 foot wide bookshelves, and I'd never have another book in a pile. For clothes I would need all of our closet and probably one of the guest room closets - everything would be easy to see and use. Sewing/fiber arts would need a good sized bedroom...

Do you think that if you got all the above space that it would actually be enough?

once dh told me I could have as many chickens as I wanted. I built extra coops, ordered a bunch of chicks, and I now know, 100 chickens is too many. 45 is about right. I tore down the extra coops and turned the space into goat stalls. If I ever find out how many goats is too many, maybe I'll let you know. But I'm pretty sure milking 6 at a time is plenty! Maybe I could handle 8, but not for too long.

I just don't know how you find the time...

...my hoarder brain thought I didn't have very many.

Could you catch yourself at the impulse and the remind yourself: "Wait, I do have enough." ?

I have to keep most things out where I can see them too. Just sayin'.

What is stopping you from simply building a big pole barn on your land and rooming it off for all that stuff you said you need more space for?

iris lilies

6-14-16, 2:56pm

Chicken Lady, it is fascinating to hear you objectively analyze your brain and your surroundings!

I am one of the ones who feels smothered by piles of stuff that simply sit around dong mothng. I had a job at a large public library system where we processed 100,000 books and dvds and music cds etc each year. It was important to keep the assembly line moving to get these purchased materials out on shelves at all of the library locations.

We had hundreds of linear feet on shelves and book trucks in our processing department. I found empty book trucks pleasing, it means we had moved enough product out of our department to free up space, and it also meant we had room to take on a special project. The special projects of many linear feet of materials were dumped in my department periodically.

But I was a bear about accepting more than one special project at a time. The hoarders, and there are many of them in old library systems, apparently loved to see shelves piled high to the ceiling with books and etc even though those materials were not accessible to anyone. Ridiculous. I felt smothered and as through I was sinking underwater when huge collextins of crap sat around.

My department had been in the same place since 1912. We moved out once in the 1990's to renovate the space. My boss and colleagues made sympathetic noises about how much stuff we would have to clean out. i said "no problem! We dont have "stuff" because I dont allow it. We have no hidey holes, no objects that havent been touched for decades, none of that chit, Ive been cleaning cuboards and nooks for years up to now."

You've heard of large libraries that have backlogs measured in years or decades? The U of Illinois was notorious for that, their backlg of unprocessed materials was in the hundreds of ousands of volumes. Yeah, I would have comitted suicide if I had to work there with that hulking, non-moving backlg of books.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 2:56pm

Also, please note that I am a recovering hoarder. The recovering part is important. There was a time when the wedding would have overloaded me completely, but now, I can recognize that it is ok to throw away the pieces of fishing line that held the paper lanterns up (waste) keep only the two tiny name flowers from dh and my places, not the styrofoam garden display all the flowers were on at the start of the reception, and not the left behind flowers from other people (sentiment) and only enough table cloths to actually cover the folding tables I currently own, not all of them in case some wear out or get stained (utilitarian)

Ultralight

6-14-16, 2:57pm

Also, please note that I am a recovering hoarder.

I got respect for you because of this.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 2:58pm

UA, what is stopping me is dh. and the expense.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 3:11pm

UA, what is stopping me is dh. and the expense.

I built a polebarn once with a guy during a summer. If I can do it, most anyone can. I am not handy.

But I get it. Cost is something that makes me recoil even for something I really want, like a vacation in South Africa.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 3:27pm

Ultralight

6-14-16, 3:30pm

OH, and the "wait, do I have enough?" That is one of the exercises that I use. But often the answer is "I don't know."

to use mustard as an example: we use a lot of mustard. So I go to the store, mustard is not on the list, but it is on sale. I think "how soon until we need mustard - i don't know. Better get one. It's a really good sale. Better get two." Then I come home and while randomly stuffing things into the pantry closet in the basement, I realize the sale was also on last week and I did the same thing. Apples live in a bowl on the counter. I never buy too many apples.

I used to buy too much at the grocery store too! I use a list regularly now. I also live a 5 minute walk from the grocery. These two things helped.

But something else I have done is made a rule where I never buy more than two of anything.

Question: You ask yourself the enough question. This seems like a good idea. What about this? You ask yourself and admit you don't know. Could you turn that over to someone you trust? They answer it for you and you abide by their answer?

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 4:03pm

That really only works (and sometimes only kind of) if I know how many I have and it's a utilitarian thing. For example - I have two twin beds, so I ask my mom "six sets of twin sheets is plenty, right? Even if somebody is sick, I'm not going to need more than six sets of sheets." And then my mom says "I can't imagine that you would! I mean, if they're sick, you're going to put them in the wash right away. You could probably get by with 4". And then I keep the 6, but I don't buy any more.

Except, I'm at the store and I see a great set of twin sheets for a great price and I think " those sheets are going to wear out. And then I will need new ones. And they won't be this cheap. And these are so pretty!" And I buy them.

but you know those canning jars that pasta sauce comes in that you can reuse? Some years I make pasta sauce, and some years I don't. And those jars are the right size. So what would happen, is the years I didn't make sauce, I would save all the empty jars I bought. But I finally realized, I am only going to use them for sauce. Dh and I are not going to eat more than 24 jars of sauce in a year. I have 24 jars. So I don't save them any more. That is actually a big deal.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 4:08pm

MMmmm... pasta. Sorry. Distracted! ;)

No, I can see the rationale. I just don't feel it.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 4:10pm

Iris lilies, I went back to read your "more" post. See, I would love that pile of books and I would love getting it out to people, and I would be so happy you would have to come find me and take a book out of my hands and tell me "go home". Or I would get lost in my job and become skeletal lay thin and fall asleep in my chair and my family would send the police to look for me.

Dh always has to physically stop me if I have a mountain of "treasure" to sort. Processing the plaster molds a few at a time was an amazing feat of self control made possible only by the limited drying space.

Ultralight

6-14-16, 4:13pm

This thread has been fascinating for me. I credit that with Chicken Lady being so candid.

Tammy

6-14-16, 6:50pm

I agree. It's a sign of your level of recovery, chicken lady, that you can tell us so much about your thought processes.

I'm learning a lot about my father, sister, and one of my brothers - all of whom like to collect lots of stuff. My other brother, mom, and I are the opposite.

Teacher Terry

6-14-16, 7:20pm

CL: thanks for sharing, your thoughts are so interesting. DH Mom's was a great lady but a hoarder. He loves living in a neat, clean home however, he needs zones where he can keep crap and be a mess. I don't understand it. It feels so much calmer/better to not be in chaos for me. I am an ENTJ. However, now that I have gotten older I need alone time. I never did when younger. The nesting instinct is wanting your personal space to feel good. so you decorate to make it feel that way. As I am aging I find I need less stuff to feel better. I also don't want to burden my kids with getting rid of a bunch of crap if I die. When I go into a model home it feels so good. One of the tricks they use is to have no small nik-naks. Only large items. This keeps it from feeling cluttered. So I am trying to replicate that although I do have some small stuff but it all fits into a small curio cabinet. I got rid of anything that didn't.

Chicken lady

6-14-16, 7:40pm

Thanks. It helps to talk about it and you guys have been really supportive. i also remember how much it helped when I came across a book that talked about the psychology behind hoarding and how my mind just kept going, yes, yes, yes. Having something to work with besides "just get rid of the stuff" was huge. So if I can help anybody else understand, I think that is great.

Teacher Terry

6-14-16, 8:09pm

So many people are affected by this issue but lately it has become acceptable to talk about which is great. In the past many would hide it. I think you have been making great progress on your home. Although never a hoarder when I was younger I had a ton of stuff to dust etc and if someone would have suggested it was too much I would not have been happy:)) We all change when we are ready. Hugs:))

Ultralight

6-15-16, 10:00am

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 10:27am

Well, in looking up definitions of greed, one is "a strong desire to get more of something." Which I think all humans experience.

another qualifies that with "more than one needs" which again, in a strict definition of "need" encompasses pretty much everybody on this board.

i know I have everything I truly need right now, so to want anything at all would be greedy. And yet, I am greedily awaiting my siding delivery.

a third definition includes "more than one's share." So it is definitely greedy of me to want to fill more than half of the storage space in my home.

eventually, you reach a point where a person has more than they could possibly ever use (and one would argue enjoy, and yet, maybe just knowing they own that island they will never get around to visiting makes them happy)

i think desire becomes a problem (greed) when it takes away from others or consumes your life. And in that way it does play into hoarding and the aspect of it that is selfish (just as drug addiction and untreated depression are selfish - they hurt those around you.)

but it is it "greedy" to want to keep 700 rubber bands that were on their way to the landfill? I don't know. One could also argue that it is greedy to fill up a landfill with items that are still useful.

ToomuchStuff

6-15-16, 10:46am

I was thinking, how is this different than greed?

Since you value experiences over stuff, isn't that also greed? I know a late friend of mine, considered himself greedy as he gave away $100K a year for years. He said in his reveal interviews, that giving is actually the greediest thing one can do, as the feelings it gives you.

iris lilies

6-15-16, 11:07am

Ultralight

6-15-16, 11:15am

Since you value experiences over stuff, isn't that also greed?

Excellent question! Do I have enough experiences? Is wanting more greed?

And to clarify, while I know that for most people experiences contribute more to happiness than buying shtuff (at least according to the research -- and Jane will probably dispute this). But I am not on the bandwagon enough to tell everyone and their brother to go out and spend mucho diniero on jet setting around the world and such.

I am a big advocate of restraint, in most scenarios.

But put a cold, perfectly ripe watermelon in front of me and you will see greed manifest!

I know a late friend of mine, considered himself greedy as he gave away $100K a year for years. He said in his reveal interviews, that giving is actually the greediest thing one can do, as the feelings it gives you.

I would argue that this guy does not know what he is talking about. If you make that much money, I think you exploited the labor of others. Also: There is a difference, in most instances, between giving things away and simply refraining from taking them in the first place.

catherine

6-15-16, 11:15am

Since you value experiences over stuff, isn't that also greed? I know a late friend of mine, considered himself greedy as he gave away $100K a year for years. He said in his reveal interviews, that giving is actually the greediest thing one can do, as the feelings it gives you.

I hadn't thought about that. I always thought about greed in the context of material possessions, so I looked up greed in Wikipedia:

Greed (OE grǽdum) is an inordinate or insatiable longing, especially for wealth, status, and power.

As secular psychological concept, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs. The degree of inordinance is related to the inability to control the reformulation of "wants" once desired "needs" are eliminated. Erich Fromm described greed as "a bottomless pit which exhausts the person in an endless effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction." It is typically used to criticize those who seek excessive material wealth, although it may apply to the need to feel more excessively moral, social, or otherwise better than someone else.

The purpose for greed, and any actions associated with it, is possibly to deprive others of potential means (perhaps, of basic survival and comfort) or future opportunities accordingly, or to obstruct them therefrom,, thus insidious and tyrannical or otherwise having negative connotation. Alternately, the purpose could be defense or counteraction from such dangerous, potential negotiation in matters of questionable agreeability. A consequence of greedy activity may be inability to sustain any of the costs or burdens associated with that which has been or is being accumulated, leading to a backfire or destruction, whether of self or more generally. So, the level of "inordinance" of greed pertains to the amount of vanity, malice or burden associated with it.

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 11:23am

So, given the new definition, I would say that hoarding is probably both inordinate and insatiable. (Like compulsive eating?). However, I do have mine under control to the point where it is no longer insatiable, so, the quote you pasted, would disqualify it from being greed by stating that there is a point of "enough".

Ultralight

6-15-16, 11:27am

Well, in looking up definitions of greed, one is "a strong desire to get more of something." Which I think all humans experience.

I would agree. Few folks in the world have eliminated this type of desire.

another qualifies that with "more than one needs" which again, in a strict definition of "need" encompasses pretty much everybody on this board.

I would agree. I certainly have more than I need. Though I am intrigued about whether or not I am happier or healthier because of it.

i know I have everything I truly need right now, so to want anything at all would be greedy. And yet, I am greedily awaiting my siding delivery.

Do you examine this desire? Reflect on it? If so, tell me about it.

a third definition includes "more than one's share." So it is definitely greedy of me to want to fill more than half of the storage space in my home.

I would yet again agree. How many square feet is your home?

eventually, you reach a point where a person has more than they could possibly ever use (and one would argue enjoy, and yet, maybe just knowing they own that island they will never get around to visiting makes them happy)

I personally know numerous people who own more than they could ever possibly use. Something about it feel tragic when I look upon them. I am still figuring out what to think and feel about that phenomenon though.

The idea of someone owning a private island that the will never get around to visiting makes them happy seems a bit far-fetched. I actually do know a couple who own a private island. They rarely get to visit. And when they do, it is to work on building up the resort they are developing there. They don't seem to be happy owning it and not really being there. They also don't seem to think being there would make them happy either. Perhaps happiness is largely and internal experience that is also internally derived (which is why I meditate -- which is very much internal and minimalistic).

i think desire becomes a problem (greed) when it takes away from others or consumes your life. And in that way it does play into hoarding and the aspect of it that is selfish (just as drug addiction and untreated depression are selfish - they hurt those around you.)

True. I'd say yes, this is largely true.

but it is it "greedy" to want to keep 700 rubber bands that were on their way to the landfill? I don't know. One could also argue that it is greedy to fill up a landfill with items that are still useful.

Excellent question! Hmmmm... I'd say: "Are you really keeping them from going to the landfill or are you turning a little place in your house into a little piece of landfill?"

I would also ask if perhaps the greed was in the manufacture and/or acquisition of the rubber bands, not in the keeping vs. throwing away. And that acquisition is further complicated by how does one avoid them? Who is the real culprit in too many rubber bands being made in the first place, etc.?

catherine

6-15-16, 11:31am

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 11:44am

catherine

6-15-16, 12:09pm

As I am not living in a climate with year round hand to mouth nutrition and a temperature that would allow me to remain naked, I cannot abstain from stuff. Also, need my glasses to see well enough to find said imaginary nutrition.

i have not annalyzed my greed for siding. We are building an addition. It is wrapped in tyvec. We have ordered siding, it is coming, I want it, the thought of having it installed pleases me, the end.

it is not healthy for me to think too hard about rubber bands.

also trying to break myself of the habit of trying to figure out if other people's choices make them happy. It does not seem to benefit anyone.

When I mentioned abstention, I certainly didn't mean abstention is the always the antidote to greed!! Not at all. In fact, I adhere to the saying, "What you resist, persists" So, moderation in all things, but with substance abuse, that's not usually possible.

Plus, I still have a hard time categorizing hoarding as greedy.

iris lilies

6-15-16, 12:14pm

When I mentioned abstention, I certainly didn't mean abstention is the always the antidote to greed!! Not at all. In fact, I adhere to the saying, "What you resist, persists" So, moderation in all things, but with substance abuse, that's not usually possible.

Plus, I still have a hard time categorizing hoarding as greedy.

thats funny because my gut reaction is that hoarding is extremely greedy. But thats not a well reasoned opinion, it just is from the gut.

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 12:21pm

No, I just meant that that is one thing that is frustrating about hoarding. Abstention is not a viable option. and "stuff" is sadly ubiquitous.

i offer a though exercise UA should enjoy:

i do not want "disposable" plastic cups. I don't like to use them, I don't want them in my house, and I never want to buy another one as long as I live!

but I have them. In fact, we used them at the brunch. And I told everybody to toss them in the sink, and I washed them and put them back in the cupboard. Because the alternative is what? Throwing them "away"? There is no "away" and they can be reused and if they are thrown out, more cups will be bought, and more cups will be made, and more cups will be thrown away, and I could have done something to reduce this (see why I stopped thinking about rubber bands?)

i try to give them away, but your kids never want to sign up to bring the cups to the party when they know you will send used (and washed) cups of many kinds.

I brought the the bag from behind the bar home from the wedding to recycle the bottles (we had to carry out the trash). And I dumped it in the yard to hose everything off because it had to wait a week and because there were a few things in there other than bottles (not many) but this included seven plastic cups. And they can't be recycled. So I washed them. And now I have more plastic cups.

(side note - the three bags that were not bar bags I put in the trash without sorting - and it was hard!)

Ultralight

6-15-16, 12:31pm

thats funny because my gut reaction is that hoarding is extremely greedy. But thats not a well reasoned opinion, it just is from the gut.

I feel it is greedy too. I don't like to feel greed in myself. But I still do some greedy things from time to time. :(

Ultralight

6-15-16, 12:34pm

No, I just meant that that is one thing that is frustrating about hoarding. Abstention is not a viable option. and "stuff" is sadly ubiquitous.

It is especially difficult when your addiction is something you need anyway -- like food or some stuff.

i offer a though exercise UA should enjoy:

i do not want "disposable" plastic cups. I don't like to use them, I don't want them in my house, and I never want to buy another one as long as I live!

but I have them. In fact, we used them at the brunch. And I told everybody to toss them in the sink, and I washed them and put them back in the cupboard. Because the alternative is what? Throwing them "away"? There is no "away" and they can be reused and if they are thrown out, more cups will be bought, and more cups will be made, and more cups will be thrown away, and I could have done something to reduce this (see why I stopped thinking about rubber bands?)

i try to give them away, but your kids never want to sign up to bring the cups to the party when they know you will send used (and washed) cups of many kinds.

I brought the the bag from behind the bar home from the wedding to recycle the bottles (we had to carry out the trash). And I dumped it in the yard to hose everything off because it had to wait a week and because there were a few things in there other than bottles (not many) but this included seven plastic cups. And they can't be recycled. So I washed them. And now I have more plastic cups.

This seems like a mental prison.

Though I would disagree. There is an "away." But it is a matter of distance. I throw something away and it goes miles from me into a landfill. You keep something I would throw away, but it is away in a cupboard in your house. I prefer my away. I have seen landfills in real life many times. I don't want that crap in my apartment.

How did everyone react to you keeping the plastic cups and washing them?

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 12:42pm

I used to live near a landfill. I don't want that crap on my planet. Your definition of home is too small for me.

everyone thought it was a great idea. It was family. I was either being thrifty or environmentally responsible. I think your upbringing shapes your hoarding. Maybe if I was raised by people who focused on animal rescue I'd hoard cats.

it is a mental prison. THAT IS THE POINT. It's not a character flaw, it's not laziness or lack of willpower, it's not stubbornness, it's not greed. I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. But it's really hard to find the door out.

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 12:43pm

Those people on hoarders who are crying? They aren't brats throwing a fit. They are actually in pain. Someone is dragging them straight through the bars.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 1:00pm

I used to live near a landfill. I don't want that crap on my planet. Your definition of home is too small for me.

I don't want it on my planet either. But then again, if you are worried about plastic cups on the planet -- why bring them into your house? Why build an addition to your house to house more? I am just being a prick. I am asking sincere questions.

I consider myself a planetary citizen too.

everyone thought it was a great idea. It was family. I was either being thrifty or environmentally responsible. I think your upbringing shapes your hoarding. Maybe if I was raised by people who focused on animal rescue I'd hoard cats.

Very intriguing thought...

it is a mental prison. THAT IS THE POINT. It's not a character flaw, it's not laziness or lack of willpower, it's not stubbornness, it's not greed. I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. But it's really hard to find the door out.

I understand. It is frightening and heart-wrenching.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 1:01pm

Those people on hoarders who are crying? They aren't brats throwing a fit. They are actually in pain. Someone is dragging them straight through the bars.

I know. This is what tipped me off that my mom was not entirely lazy or lacking willpower or just being stubborn. When my sis and I tried to dehoard just a few tiny spaces in her house and she went hysterically berserk I thought: "Hmmmm... something is going on here I don't yet understand."

iris lilies

6-15-16, 1:15pm

I feel it is greedy too. I don't like to feel greed in myself. But I still do some greedy things from time to time. :(
I have nevr ever ever said that I dont do greedy things myself.

My life is kindofa greedfest. But at least I recognize it.

Animal hoarding is an example of altruistic behavior that can turn into greed pretty fast. No one "needs" 30 cats and it is greedy and selfish to think that only you ( the general you) can save them.

Actually, I have a problem anyway with the whole idea of somene who considers themselves a "saviour" of cats and dogs anyway.

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 1:16pm

The addition is to house experiences. Because when we had 8 people in my kitchen/dining area it was standing room only and nearly impossible to reach the coffee.

They are already on the planet. i bring them into my home because it's that or the trash. If you said "hey, could I have those for my atheist group picnic" I would give them to you, and feel a rush of those chemicals I can't remember that make you happy.

a small rush for helping you, a small rush for reducing the total number of cups that would get thrown out, and a huge rush for being free of the cups.

iris lilies

6-15-16, 1:26pm

In CL's situation I would have gone to the theift stores, purchased glasses and cups there,used them and returned them. They wouldnt match but I doubt anyone would care about that. We have good thrift stores aeound here.

I use them to feed my addiction to dinnerware which is under control but always lurking in my head. As ya'll know I do flower show exhibits and table exhibits are part of that world. I got that rush CL talks about when I was able to go to my basement and put togehter a thematic display of dinnerware fitting the iris show theme, all obtained from Goodwill.

i recently bought a box full of melamine dishes cor $10 whoch is a lot of money, but melamine is easy to spray paint, so now I have a supply of dishes in interesting shapes that can be painted appropruate colors for flower show displays.

keep in mind I have NO PROBLEM throwing these away when the time comes that I move on to another hobby, or to clean off for more appropriate stuff.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 1:29pm

They are already on the planet. i bring them into my home because it's that or the trash.

Does it not seem like by doing so you make your house the trash? That is my concern with keeping stuff.

If you said "hey, could I have those for my atheist group picnic" I would give them to you, and feel a rush of those chemicals I can't remember that make you happy.

What if I then told you I was going to throw the cups in the trash when I was done?

Or... what if after I had the picnic I then told you I threw the cups away? Would you feel absolved by that point or anguish?

Tammy

6-15-16, 1:36pm

i like the washing of non recyclable cups. that's not hoarding to me. that's responsible living on this planet. i recycle what i can, and then i wash the plastics that can't be and use them as my tupperware. i don't own hardly any actual tupperware - its all from the grocery. and it works just fine. :)

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 1:37pm

Oh, I know you are going to throw the cups away. But you were going to throw the cups away anyway. I stopped you from buying new cups to throw away.

it does not feel like my house is the trash, because they are not trash. They are clean and useful - my house is the "warehouse of potential."

iris lilies, I like that!

Ultralight

6-15-16, 1:37pm

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 1:38pm

But Tammy, what happens when you have enough "Tupperware" and something comes into your house in a plastic container?

Ultralight

6-15-16, 1:38pm

"warehouse of potential."

Isn't a landfill also this?

catherine

6-15-16, 1:52pm

my house is the "warehouse of potential."

I hate to keep drawing parallels with alcoholism but one of the common problems of people who love alcoholics is they get trapped in the alcoholic's "potential" which of course never comes to fruition. Alcoholics are often extremely bright, creative, loving, kind, etc. But hanging your hopes on their "potential" will make you miserable and ruin your life.

Couldn't the same be said of the potential of hoards?

Ultralight

6-15-16, 2:01pm

I hate to keep drawing parallels with alcoholism but one of the common problems of people who love alcoholics is they get trapped in the alcoholic's "potential" which of course never comes to fruition. Alcoholics are often extremely bright, creative, loving, kind, etc. But hanging your hopes on their "potential" will make you miserable and ruin your life.

Couldn't the same be said of the potential of hoards?

I suspect this happened to my dad. And he just said: "If you can't beat them, join them!"

I simply WILL NOT ever do that.

But... there are alcoholics who kick, stay sober, and live up to much of their potential.

catherine

6-15-16, 2:16pm

But... there are alcoholics who kick, stay sober, and live up to much of their potential.

Yes, but that's entirely up to them. The point is, to live for the "potential" of something or someone beyond yourself is not a good strategy.

Geila

6-15-16, 2:28pm

Yes, but that's entirely up to them. The point is, to live for the "potential" of something or someone beyond yourself is not a good strategy.

Yes, it's hard enough to tackle our own potential! :)

I think when we see how hard it is to create change within ourselves we can be more compassionate, respectful, and realistic of how hard it is for others to create change within themselves. Especially when that change is not self-driven.

This is why I have such tremendous respect for Chicken Lady. She is working very, very hard to create change within herself even though that change is painful. And she is taking complete ownership of her actions and choices, even though they are driven by something within her that she can't fully understand or control. Very hard work.

ApatheticNoMore

6-15-16, 2:28pm

I don't think hoarding is greedy, because I don't think hoarders necessarily buy anymore than anyone else. This varies a lot, some do, and you see them on Hoarders with the unopened boxes from Ebay I guess. But that varies.

What hoarders do is they refuse to get rid of (by one way or other) things others do get rid of and so they might accumulate more over time (ok and some people may not even accumulate any more than anyone else, but just have an organization problem, they either need to be organized like other people with the same amount of stuff are, or own less than others).

Ultralight

6-15-16, 2:29pm

Yes, but that's entirely up to them. The point is, to live for the "potential" of something or someone beyond yourself is not a good strategy.
Oh, I know.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 2:29pm

Yes, it's hard enough to tackle our own potential! :)

I tackled my potential. It just never got up to play again after that. haha

Geila

6-15-16, 2:32pm

If hoarding is a condition - the way depression or bulimia or anxiety is - what purpose does it serve to judge it? Asking whether being a hoarder is greedy would be like asking if a bulimic is wasteful for throwing up the food they eat. It misses the point.

Geila

6-15-16, 2:33pm

I tackled my potential. It just never got up to play again after that. haha

Did you beat it into submission? :D

Ultralight

6-15-16, 2:48pm

catherine

6-15-16, 2:51pm

I think when we see how hard it is to create change within ourselves we can be more compassionate, respectful, and realistic of how hard it is for others to create change within themselves. Especially when that change is not self-driven.

Well said. Unless you've walked in another person's shoes.....

Acceptance of people for who they are makes life easier for all involved.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 2:52pm

Acceptance of people for who they are makes life easier for all involved.

Can you think of exceptions to this rule?

catherine

6-15-16, 2:58pm

Can you think of exceptions to this rule?

No. Why would I go looking for exceptions, anyway? As a general rule, giving others the dignity of determining their own fate is the only option unless you're in law enforcement (OK, there's the exception).

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:00pm

Why would I go looking for exceptions, anyway?

To make sure that your idea holds water. You have heard of straw man fallacy, right?

There is a technique called Steel Man. This is where you imagine someone disagrees with you. So you build up the best possible versions of their argument. This helps to make sure your point is airtight.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:03pm

I was reading some time back about weight loss. Apparently after 5 years only 3% of people who lose 50 lbs. or more will have kept it off. Most gain it back within 5 years. Many gain more back.

The 3% who keep it off work at it all the time. It is the primary focus of their life, or darned close to it.

So perhaps for someone to stop hoarding they would have to do the same thing, make it the primary focus of their life and work at it all the time.

catherine

6-15-16, 3:03pm

To make sure that your idea holds water. You have heard of straw man fallacy, right?

There is a technique called Steel Man. This is where you imagine someone disagrees with you. So you build up the best possible versions of their argument. This helps to make sure your point is airtight.

I hate to pull rank, but I believe I'm about twice your age, so I don't need techniques. I've done my own experimentation in my life and my conclusion holds water.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:06pm

I hate to pull rank, but I believe I'm about twice your age, so I don't need techniques. I've done my own experimentation in my life and my conclusion holds water.

That sounds like an appeal to authority fallacy. Just because you are older than me does not mean you could not benefit from using the Steel Man technique.

Tell me about your experiments and why your conclusion holds water.

ApatheticNoMore

6-15-16, 3:10pm

I was reading some time back about weight loss. Apparently after 5 years only 3% of people who lose 50 lbs. or more will have kept it off. Most gain it back within 5 years. Many gain more back.

you could also see gaining it back within 5 years as success, because if they hadn't lost the 50 lbs in the first place they may have continued gaining instead and be an ADDITIONAL 50 pounds up (or whatever maybe only an additional 20 pounds up). Since it's very easy to gain weight as one gets older, and most people do, maintaining is a sort of success. Losing the weight may have given them the leeway to at least maintain their pre-diet weight, even though they somewhat overate in order to gain it back of course.

Part of why people may gain weight as they age (beyond metabolism and blah blah blah) is IMO because they focus excessively on losing weight toward some ideal rather than just preventing weight gain and being satisfied with that. While if they actually manage to lose weight this gives them some leeway, if they don't it probably just diverts energy from a more helpful focus on maintaining. Hoarding also tends to get worse as one gets older of course.

herbgeek

6-15-16, 3:10pm

UL, we are not all your projects, and we don't all need to be fixed by you.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:10pm

Allow me to illustrate.

Suppose I repeated some maxim like: "An apple a day keeps the doctor away!"

I am 36. If an 18 year old asked me for proof or the reasoning behind this and I said: "Hey kid, I am twice your age. I don't need to proof or reasoning. It is just true because that is my view and my experience that I remember."

Would that be rational?

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:11pm

UL, we are not all your projects, and we don't all need to be fixed by you.

The project comment I made really hit home for you...

herbgeek

6-15-16, 3:12pm

It did. And crystallized for me what I had been seeing, but couldn't quite put into words yet. You keep poking at everyone else, sometimes in ways that are not very nice, for a reason I don't yet understand.

catherine

6-15-16, 3:12pm

That sounds like an appeal to authority fallacy. Just because you are older than me does not mean you could not benefit from using the Steel Man technique.

Tell me about your experiments and why your conclusion holds water.

I would, but it would be too self-revealing. Let's just say it's a personal choice I've adopted to let people be who they are. Can I do any differently anyway? I'm not God, and since you don't believe in God I'm assuming you are unwilling to adopt that role, too. ;)

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:13pm

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:14pm

I would, but it would be too self-revealing. Let's just say it's a personal choice I've adopted to let people be who they are. Can I do any differently anyway? I'm not God, and since you don't believe in God I'm assuming you are unwilling to adopt that role, too. ;)

You kinda zinged me here! haha :~)

iris lilies

6-15-16, 3:14pm

Boredom, herbgeek. Boredom.or God complex.

Ultralight

6-15-16, 3:16pm

or God complex.

A carpenter repairs and builds things. Maybe I have a carpenter complex!

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 5:32pm

So he thinks he's Jesus?:~)

i went to get a goat. the thread grew three pages. I am still wondering about the store container "Tupperware". Also, UA can poke at me all he wants. I think it is probably good for both of us. And I am a tough old bird.

no, the landfill is not a warehouse of potential. That which goes into the landfill is not coming out in my lifetime and even if recovered someday has lost a lot of potential use.

also, I do not think focusing ones life on not hoarding is a good solution. 1) it is a very depressing thought, and 2) focusing on not hoarding is just another kind of focusing on stuff, and NOT focusing on stuff is one of the goals here.

I know I am making progress not because I throw the empty feed bags away, but because one day, I realize I threw the empty feed bag away without really thinking about it!

Ultralight

6-15-16, 6:03pm

I don't think focusing on not-stuff is the same as focusing on stuff.

Is eating a diet of all junk food the same as eating a diet of fresh healthy foods? I mean, it is still focusing on food.

People say minimalism is as bad as hoarding because it is still all about focusing on stuff. And that makes no sense. Once the stuff is jettisoned and you turn off the acquisition valve then badda-boom-badda-bing -- you are focused on whatever you really wanted to focus on (writing, jogging, meditating, raising weasels, whatever).

Here is another thought:

I think that the point of waste is when the materials are extracted from the environment.

So save all the plastic cups you want. That does not change the wastage. It rearranged the plastic cups on the dining tables on the deck of the Titanic though.

freshstart

6-15-16, 6:16pm

I know I am making progress not because I throw the empty feed bags away, but because one day, I realize I threw the empty feed bag away without really thinking about it!

that's all that matters and good for you!

Ultralight

6-15-16, 6:20pm

I know I am making progress not because I throw the empty feed bags away, but because one day, I realize I threw the empty feed bag away without really thinking about it!

Heck yeah!!! :)

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 6:21pm

If once the plastic cup has been extracted from the earth, it is used 17 times, instead of thrown away and replaced by a newly extracted from the earth cup 17 times, then you have in fact reduced the wastage. If you simply add 17 cups to the closet, then no, the wastage has not been reduced. The hoarding in this case is caused by inability to get the cups back into use coupled with faith that that can happen.

you are out of parallel with your food analogy. The amount of time and energy spent focusing on food is not changed by wether the focus is on healthy food or junk food. In the food case I would argue that healthy food probably requires more time and energy, as junk food is often easily picked up, but the reward is greater. The eating is different, the food is different, but yes, it is just another kind of focusing.

You can never "turn off the aquistion valve". Your bread will come in a bag, so you will have to make a decision about what to do with the bag. Or you will have to go out of your way to the bakery that sells bread without bags, and bring a bag, or carry your naked bread home unprotected. If you are "focusing on not hoarding" throwing that bag away, or recycling it, is going to take a lot more mental energy than mindlessly stuffing it in your kitchen drawer. In fact, it will probably take more time as well.

today I picked up a goat, and the goat guy gave me a plastic bag of feed so I can change his food over slowly. When the feed is gone I will have an empty plastic bag. Go ahead, focus on raiding weasels. The weasel raising is guaranteed to bring stuff into your life.

in fact, having a relationship with your father brings stuff into your life. One of the things that clearly pisses you off is that you cannot turn the valve off without giving up the relationship.

stuff happens.

Chicken lady

6-15-16, 6:30pm

You know, I don't think minimalism has to be focused on stuff. I think minimalism is focused on stuff when one feels a need to be a guard at the gate with a sword attempting to turn of the valve. I think minimalism stops being about stuff when one can just stand in the inevitable flow of stuff, not even noticing it passing by except to occaisionally pick up that which one wishes to use and to return that which one has no further use for to the flow.

that is a healthy attitude toward stuff. And I think that is what recovery from hoarding will look like. Except the minimalist is going to keep everything in his pocket, and someone like me is going to be holding a big box (ok, bigger than a box, I'm being figurative anyway)

Chicken lady

6-18-16, 8:32am

My son called us on face time last night. He has been sighing about the amount of stuff his gf has (ironically both of my grown children have chosen partners who have "a lot" of stuff. - although in both cases the stuff has been intensified by premature inheritance - one father died and the other walked out, both mothers downsized immensely and moved. So you have millennials with pianos, full sets of bar ware, tools, and antique living room sets)

anyway, he walked us around the new apartment and showed it off. He was really happy. Previously they have been living in "we can afford this" housing. Now he has a really good job, and she is also working, so "we can afford this" has changed - overnight they are middle class. The apartment is 900 sq ft with a one car plus garage. He said "our apartment is finally the right size! We have unpacked everything and put it away and I can come home without having stuff everywhere."

dh said "that has never happened with us." And he looked at me somewhere between frustrated and sad.

today I am feeling discouraged. I'm working so hard and I still have so far to go.

nswef

6-18-16, 10:14am

You've come so far! That elephant is getting eaten. Hugs.

iris lilies

6-18-16, 8:21pm

Chicken lady

6-18-16, 8:22pm

I have been on the phone with my mom a lot today. She and my uncle are starting the clean out of the beach house my grandparents built when my mom was little. It's going to be sold. Which is hard for everybody. But we don't Ho there much anymore, the taxes are high, the upkeep us difficult, and honestly I end up crying every visit because I miss my grandparents.

anyway, as I requested, I get my great grandparents table and chairs for my new dining area, and the fountain for our entryway.

after talking to my mother at length, and saying "no" to a lot, I also get:
a mirror, a child's rocking chair, a lamp, two 3x5 cross stitch pictures, a box of paperdolls, a plastic lunch box, a ceramic chicken dish, and possibly some sheets, some pillows, and a painting. The paper dolls are going in the recycling. I don't actually want them, but my uncle insists that I take them because my name is on them.

they haven't done the garage yet.

My uncle. I love him very much, and he is the person I don't want to become. Periodically my aunt threatens to leave him because she just can't deal with the stuff anymore. My cousin is an only child and has made me swear that when the time comes, I will help her clean out the house.

as I was talking to my mom today, I could hear my aunt in the background, upset because my mom had left the goodwill pile from the second floor in the living room instead of taking it right to her trunk, and my uncle was sorting back through it and taking things out.

Chicken lady

6-18-16, 8:26pm

Iris lilies, cross post.

My son's apartment is nice. I would like it there. They have lots of pictures and throw pillows and accent rugs, and books, and he even has a collection of cat things on his dresser and a stuffed snowman in the recliner. What he doesn't have is boxes on the floor and things piled on the coffee table or his desk or the chairs or stashed under the end tables, and clothes hanging on furniture.

mschrisgo2

6-18-16, 10:44pm

Your son's apartment sounds wonderful, good for them that they have found their "right size."

And you are working on yours, your addition is giving you the "right size" that you have needed for a long time. You have many varied activities, all of which need space in your living environment. Getting the scrapbooking corner together is an important step, just like going through the pottery molds was. As you make a real place for everything, it will be easier and easier to see and deal with the excess.

sweetana3

6-19-16, 6:21am

My husband just rediscovered a stash of books in the bottom of a huge end table that we have not opened in years. Thought I had at least seen all the books.

Lainey

6-19-16, 12:14pm

That's interesting, sweetana3.
Reminds me of another story I read about a woman who said her family opened up a trunk that hadn't been opened in decades and found beautiful hand-sewn quilts. While I know something that like isn't going to happen in our family, I'd be curious to know if anyone here had any similar "happy surprises" during a clean up.

Geila

6-19-16, 12:56pm

****Spoiler Alert**** MY Name is Doris

Last night we saw My Name is Doris with Sally Field and surprisingly it has an element of the hoarding condition in the storyline. The movie overall was very cute and funny - Sally Field is always fantastic in everything she does - but I was disappointed in the typical Hollywood portrayal of hoarding. It was very similar to how the Silver Lining Playlist brought up a real condition but instead of being true to the difficulty in addressing such a condition, they make it look like a piece of cake to overcome. But despite that, it was such a cute movie.

Chicken lady

6-19-16, 2:41pm

I have a beautiful antique trunk we found cleaning out my great grandmother's attic, and we found all kinds of really neat things in my grandparent's house - I am now the keeper of the family quilts, I think my (thrifty? Saver? Hoarder?) Subsistence farm great grandmother turned every scrap of fabric that crossed her path into something useful, and often beautiful. The other side lived in Maine in the 18-1900's. Everyone took at least one nice quilt, but I got the ones that didn't speak to anyone or need significant repair. Quilting is something I dabbled with briefly when my kids were babies and want to get back to when there are a few major projects off my plate.

Geila, yeah, that's how it goes in movies - individual has huge personal struggle, suddenly easily overcome by the love of a good partner. Thousands of women marry men thinking they'll save them and the are surprised when the struggle is real and continues. I'm not sure it's as much of a problem with men, but I'm sure it happens.

Chicken lady

6-19-16, 3:54pm

Also, when I started dehoarding, I found dd3's birth certificate. She was 7. The envelope had never been opened. We had moved twice since her birth.

Chicken lady

6-20-16, 8:26pm

I talked to my mom again today. I am now also getting the bolt of fabric that matches the upholstery on the child's rocker that I am getting, because I have the other child's rocker and it needs to be reupholstered. Dh is calling "scope creep"

and I went to get feed and discovered that when dd2 said she unloaded all the stuff from the wedding, we were not in agreement on the meaning of some of those words. (She has the farm truck on a camping trip, so I was driving my car for the first time all week). I am just putting all the decorations in the loft with the wedding presents and the bride and groom can deal with them when they come back.

Ultralight

6-21-16, 8:30am

Tell me what he means by "scope creep."

Chicken lady

6-21-16, 9:09am

Ultralight

6-21-16, 9:21am

Scope creep - original plan - pick up fountain and table and chairs. New plan - and fabric, and rocking chair, and lamp, and...

i have to to show him where all this stuff is going to go or it stays at my mom's house. I'm feeling a lot of time pressure.

Ah, yes... I have also heard the term "mission creep" and thought maybe it was related.

Why not just go back to the original scope? Then no pressure.

iris lilies

6-21-16, 9:29am

Scope creep - original plan - pick up fountain and table and chairs. New plan - and fabric, and rocking chair, and lamp, and...

i have to to show him where all this stuff is going to go or it stays at my mom's house. I'm feeling a lot of time pressure.
Hunh, so your hubby is takng the position of "show me where this stuff will live" before it comes to your house.

Sounds good!

Ultralight

6-21-16, 9:31am

Can DH veto anything and everything if he so chooses?

Chicken lady

6-21-16, 10:07am

That would depend on your definition of "can". If he made me choose between the stuff and him, I would choose him. And I would be sad, angry, and resentful. Indefinitely.

We do not have a relationship of ultimatums - 20 years ago in Ohio I had to sign a permission slip for him to get a vasectomy because apparently fertility is marital property. I wanted more kids. But he did not, and as we both agreed that a person should have control over their own body, I perjured myself and signed that I wanted him to do that. I don't think he would have left me if I had refused, but i don't think it would have improved our sex life (ironic understatement)

the pressure is not bad for me. And I think the system is working. It is a "treatment" approach we have agreed on. We have set a shared goal of space we can both be happy in. We have broadly defined that goal and continue to negotiate the fine tuning. It isn't his job to tell me what I can and can't have. I am not a child, and that would not help me develop the skills I need. It is his role, as my partner, to help me face the reality of my available space and the need to make decisions., and to support and encourage me.

Ultralight

6-21-16, 10:10am

He is quite saintly.

Chicken lady

6-21-16, 10:36am

Hey, he's not perfect either! Explain to me how a person with a Ph.D. That includes extensive training in thermodynamics and a job involving heat transfer cannot understand that while yes, turning the fans on to make the air move makes the house feel cooler, opening the windows when it is ten degrees hotter and far more humid outside does NOT.

iris lilies

6-21-16, 10:36am

He is quite saintly.
Oh please.
CL's DH does sound like a good guy but not "saintly."

Ultralight

6-21-16, 10:58am

Oh please.
CL's DH does sound like a good guy but not "saintly."

Why you gotta talk trash about somebody's husband? haha

Compared to me, dude is a saint. I'd have pressed the eject button decades ago.

Chicken lady

6-21-16, 11:01am

ultralite, you'd have crossed the county line at "I want six kids." It's not apples and oranges, it's apples and moon landers.

iris lilies

6-21-16, 11:12am

Why you gotta talk trash about somebody's husband? haha

Compared to me, dude is a saint. I'd have pressed the eject button decades ago.

No. You are seeing CL's situation through your own lense. That is YOUR baggage.

I think we would all agree that you and CL should not be married. No need to belabor it.

Ultralight

6-21-16, 11:14am

That is YOUR baggage.

My values are not baggage. hahaha

Seriously.

And... CL and I can be internet friends, but certainly not married. lol

Chicken lady

6-21-16, 11:53am

Also, I am quite willing to agree that my dh is a saint compared to UA. :laff:

iris lilies

6-21-16, 12:07pm

My values are not baggage. hahaha

Seriously.

And... CL and I can be internet friends, but certainly not married. lol

well, i thnk your values cross over a bit into psychological baggage. But that doesnt make you unique, its true for all of us.

Balance in all things.

Ultralight

6-21-16, 12:14pm

well, i thnk your values cross over a bit into psychological baggage. But that doesnt make you unique, its true for all of us.

Balance in all things.

Thank you, Dr. Lilies.

Chicken lady

6-23-16, 11:07am

This is what dehoarding looks like - today I found the legs to the plastic shelf. I was looking for them this past weekend. I had not seen them in months (perhaps over a year?) Because the shelf was taken apart in the "empty the basement for construction" project.

i realize that ultralite angler can touch everything he owns in less than an hour, but when you are digging out from hoarding - having something be lost for less than a week is a big deal. Dd2's birth certificate was lost for 7 years.....

Ultralight

6-23-16, 11:10am

How does this make you feel?

Chicken lady

6-23-16, 11:38am

Pretty happy. Proud of myself.

i'm working on tossing the negatives right now. That is really really hard. I have a sick feeling in my stomach. I had to take a break. I'm trying to go fast and not think about it very much.

Ultralight

6-23-16, 1:11pm

Ultralight

6-23-16, 1:13pm

Why does tossing the negatives bother you so?

Chicken lady

6-23-16, 1:16pm

I threw away one pound, seven ounces of negative strips. Just the negatives. The paper envelopes are getting recycled.

i kept half an archival photo box of duplicate pictures to deal with later, and the negatives from the photos dh took of ds one afternoon when ds was 4 mos old (a really good photographer with a really good camera)

i emptied a paper ream box. Then I stuck all the scrapbooking stuff that was in the wobbly pile of 10 shirt boxes into labeled file folders and put the file folders in the paper ream box. I realize I am churning, but I got rid of over a pound and a half of negatives and there is no longer a pile of shirt boxes on my work surface. (There is a pile of crushed shirt boxes that I jumped up and down on on the floor - because the recycling bin is totally full. It goes up tonight. I will clean them up tomorrow)

i feel exhausted.

we posted at the same time. Negatives - sentiment, connection to the events/people, what if something happens to the photos....

Ultralight

6-23-16, 1:18pm

I realize I am churning...

Rare indeed the hoarder who knows what this is and owns up to doing it.

Teacher Terry

6-23-16, 2:15pm

some of your posts are sad because it is so hard for you to get rid of things. However, you don't give up which I think is great and keep making progress. Hope it gets easier with time.

nswef

6-23-16, 2:50pm

I think it is fantastic how you eating that elephant, even when it's difficult and wrenching. I'm hoping the cleared space helps you continue as you can.

Chicken lady

6-23-16, 3:27pm

Thank you, I think I am probably done cleaning out for the day - except carrying the trash cans and recycling to the curb. I went back down to the basement and I couldn't see any areas that seemed like I could get rid of anything. But I've been there before. Many times. I've learned to shift focus and come back to it.

teacher terry, I'm sorry if the posts are sad. Sometimes I get discouraged, but usually when I post about how hard it is to do this stuff, it's more because I want encouragement than sympathy. I mean, I am doing it. But, given the nature of this board, I want people to understand it's not like the kid who push mows your lawn said "this morning I walked up the stairs." (Yeah, good for you?) it's like your 70 y.o. Uncle who had both knees replaced told you "this morning I walked up the stairs."

the outside work is getting done, but there's a lot more inside work behind it.

Teacher Terry

6-23-16, 3:38pm

Oh I have empathy for you not sympathy. I just can tell how hard you are struggling. But we all have struggles with different things and the support on this forum is great. I just keep hoping that these types of things get easier for you. But you have a great family, etc so lots to celebrate too.

iris lilies

6-23-16, 4:00pm

CL, I just wish I could take a small bit of my own psyche and insert it into yours so that you could experience the rush of joy when a shelf is cleaned off, when a drawer is emptied, when space is made on walls.

It is a high!

Any more I get cranky when peole foist stuff off on me, but
I dont worry about the stuff I myself pull in because I know items I choose can easily be jettisoned.I actually look forward to the process! Yesterday when I put away a batch of ribbons for possible future use, I found a group of files from my job. Now I am looking forward to winter when we have a fire in the fireplace so I can burn them.

and in a year, if I havent used those ribbons,
i will toss them.

Ultralight

6-23-16, 4:09pm

CL, I just wish I could take a small bit of my own psyche and insert it into yours so that you could experience the rush of joy when a shelf is cleaned off, when a drawer is emptied, when space is made on walls.

It is a high!

For me is is more like relief. Like when you get out in the country, like way out there, and there are no cars around, no chatter of the city, it is both quiet and full of a natural sound.

Chicken lady

6-23-16, 4:59pm

Oh, I enjoy it when I get a space cleaned out, but my reaction us more "now I can set this up the way I want it." I'm not a huge fan of empty space. My guest room feels really cold to me right now because I'm not hanging any pictures until I gave everything else done and am sure about where the furniture goes.

i really liked getting the boxes off my table because now I gave space to work, but my first response to the empty box was "now, what can I put in here so that something else works better."

my my kitchen is looking really good these days. I'm sure UL would call it crowded and cluttered, but I could go in there right now and bake bread and serve it to 6 people with tea and jam and all I would have to do first is move my notebook and grab two more chairs. There were months when it took ten minutes before we could sit down to eat takeout off the wrappers.

Ultralight

6-23-16, 5:41pm

Do you ever feel visually overwhelmed?

Teacher Terry

6-23-16, 5:55pm

It sounds like you are making good progress. I used to think empty space felt sterile but have since changed my mind. Although, I would not want to live somewhere with no pics, etc.

Chicken lady

6-23-16, 6:18pm

I feel visually overwhelmed every time I go into a mall or big box store. My eyes actually glaze over and I zone out if I'm not careful. I try to avoid going to those places alone.

Chicken lady

6-24-16, 6:11pm

Today I was exhausted.

I think this is a function of getting less than 7 hours of sleep on week nights - because of farm chores and dh work schedule, and dealing with the negatives yesterday. It's frustrating to me that stuff like that takes so much out of me.

i didn't find anything to get rid of (yet?) today. I didn't paint any boards.

I did my regular farm chores. I crushed a bag of cans, I called the trash people because they didn't pick up my recycling bin, and then after they picked it up I filled it again with piles that were waiting in different rooms. I put dd1's table runners from the wedding into a box. I talked to my mom on the phone. I moved a file cabinet, and I lay down.

when dh came home, the breakfast dishes were still in the sink, the flowers that are going by were still drooping and smelling like they need their water changed, the goats had gotten loose and were eating the landscaping, and I was asleep.

he is working on the house, but I am avoiding him because I think he's mad at me.

Geila

6-24-16, 6:26pm

CL - your post touched on something I've been thinking about for a couple of days so I'm going to do a post about it... not sure where I'll put it ...

Teacher Terry

6-24-16, 6:34pm

CL: you had one of those not so good days-ugh! We all have them. Your farm sounds like a lot of work.

Chicken lady

6-25-16, 10:53am

The farm is a lot of work, but it's a labor of love.

the day got better. Dh wasn't mad at me (he was mad at the goats). Dh had some dinner and pie and we talked. He's concerned that trying to go pick up the table right now is creating too much stress in my birth family, but I told him the timing can only get worse, not better. This stuff needs to get done.

i cleaned up the kitchen and took care of the flowers, and as I was getting ready for bed, I saw the tiny pretty plastic bottle that I have added water to twice to use "the last of the lotion" and I threw it in the trash can!

Teacher Terry

6-25-16, 12:28pm

Mad at the goats:~). I am too lazy to do that much work.

Chicken lady

6-25-16, 3:58pm

Posted elephant update in wrong thread

Ultralight

6-27-16, 7:05am

CL:

How much totally unstructured down time do you have each day?

Chicken lady

6-27-16, 7:44am

Well, I structure my own days - so, all of it? None?

i spend about an hour with my coffee and my iPad on mornings i don't work. I have 2.5 hours of basic farm chores a day. I make dh breakfast and pack his lunch (about 30 minutes?) every weekday morning.

today my day says (in no particular order)
chores - shots
16' boards
glaze
bake pound cake (cheesecake?)
groceries, get peaches
laundry (whites!)
clean stalls

Plus dishes and general clean up and dinner.
and then there is another list for the week on the off chance I finish all those things.

Ultralight

6-27-16, 9:09am

This is a pretty information and especially concise article on hoarding and recovery.

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2016/06/26/hoarding-101-matt-paxton/85999014/

Ultralight

6-27-16, 9:10am

Chicken lady

6-27-16, 10:12am

Ultralite, we all have 24 hours in a day. We all do something during each minute that makes up those hours. I have more choice about how to spend those minutes than most people on the planet. What you are really asking me is "what would your day look like if you had to give up some of your choices?" Unless you are asking "what would your day look like if your dh decided to hire a full time cook?" In which case I would sleep an extra 40 minutes on weekdays and spend a little more time on the stuff I am already doing.

i don't have a reasonable fantasy life where I should be thinking about making changes, the only things I don't want to do are cook meals and clean the house. And I would rather do those things than have one of us work more to pay someone to do them or divert money from other uses. If you gave me magic elf servants - I would still do my chores and clean the stalls. (The elves could also fetch the groceries)

i am am curious what you think this has to do with the hoarding though.

edited to add: also, according to your article, I have absolutely zero hope of recovery as I am not in therapy (alternative thought - hoarders who recover without therapy are not participating in studies. Seems reasonable as it would stem from similar personality traits)

i also don"t buy that whole "loss trigger" thing. I would agree that any trauma could worsen hoarding, and perhaps significant life events can take you from "organized hoarder who is coping" to "person whose life gets out of control enough that they lose control of their environment." (Three much wanted and loved kids can do that too)

if if we live long enough, we experience loss. And if one is a hoarder, if one lives long enough, one runs out of space.

Ultralight

6-27-16, 10:25am

Ultralite, we all have 24 hours in a day. We all do something during each minute that makes up those hours. I have more choice about how to spend those minutes than most people on the planet. What you are really asking me is "what would your day look like if you had to give up some of your choices?" Unless you are asking "what would your day look like if your dh decided to hire a full time cook?" In which case I would sleep an extra 40 minutes on weekdays and spend a little more time on the stuff I am already doing.

i don't have a reasonable fantasy life where I should be thinking about making changes, the only things I don't want to do are cook meals and clean the house. And I would rather do those things than have one of us work more to pay someone to do them or divert money from other uses. If you gave me magic elf servants - I would still do my chores and clean the stalls. (The elves could also fetch the groceries)

i am am curious what you think this has to do with the hoarding though.

Well, what does it have to do with hoarding?

I wonder how much taking on so, so many tasks is part of the hoarding disorder. How does it contribute to it? More tasks/hobbies/activities usually means more stuff.

I remember once you asked me why I "don't drink life from a fire hose."

I think about that question a lot.

For one thing, I like lounging around. This is not popular in the US -- parents are busy all the time, they make their kids be busy all the time. Bosses are busy and give their employees mucho busy work. This goes on everywhere.

But I like to just kick back on the bean bag chair and lounge. It ain't much contemplation. It ain't meditation. It is just lounging. And it is nice!

I am not asking you to give up choices, but rather to examine some of the choices you have made/continue to make. Maybe some unbridled lounging everyday could be good for ya! ;)

But back to the fire hose.

Why don't I drink life from a fire hose?

Because I don't think I could actually taste anything that way. It rushes past my lips, past my tongue, and down my throat all before I can savor the coolness, the refreshment, the primal satisfaction, the amazement of pure water to drink.

To me, life is not an all-you-can-eat buffet (okay, all-you-can-eat buffets in life are all-you-can-eat). And I had a real weakness for them. But again, I would not savor. I'd wolf it down. And ultimately I'd rather taste the richness and savor it than shovel it in.

Chicken lady

6-27-16, 11:07am

I think this may simply be a personality issue - faced with a life we could both call "full" you would mean "busy" and I would mean "rich". As for a hoarding connection, my personal take is that this is an example of "when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

catherine

6-27-16, 11:19am

Boy, I would love to be a moderator with you two discussing hoarding vs. minimalism. You've both been pretty thought-provoking and honest.

I like the savor the water vs grab it as it rushes by analogy. At the same time, I relate to Chicken lady, and the idea that chores ARE life, and calling your own shots in a day is a blessing, even if that day is busy, and sometimes stressful. We all have different tolerance levels for busy-ness. I have a son who I sometimes desperately want to send to a monastery or a deserted island because he runs and runs all day long in a myriad of activity. I've worried about his lack of sleep and his immune system. But I've come to realize that that's him... If I put him in a monastery he's be the one to organize a chanting choir, and hoe a few garden patches and try to figure out what makes the church bells chime. I really love that about him, and I've accepted that he is a fire hose drinker, bar none.

To each his own, and I agree with chicken lady.. I don't think the way she spends her day has much, if anything, to do with hoarding. But it's an interesting question.

Ultralight

6-27-16, 11:22am

catherine

6-27-16, 11:26am

Hoarding is marked by constant acquisition and the inability to discard.

So I would say that these personality traits could extend to all facets of one's life -- not just physical stuff.

More hobbies. More friends. More kids. More pets. More livestock. More. More. More.

Maybe, but I would say that if the activity you are "hoarding" is detracting from your quality of life you might have a point and MANY--even MOST-- of us are guilty of that--

But if that activity is enriching your life, that's not hoarding--if editing your life is going to detract rather than add, then you are not hoarding activity. In other words, to me it sounds like CL is happy what she's doing almost all day long--except for washing dishes and cleaning house, and she's made a conscious decision to not give away her life energy to outsource those chores. So IMHO, it doesn't like she's guilty of too much activity in her life. She says she has a rich life, so who is to argue with that?

Ultralight

6-27-16, 11:31am

Maybe, but I would say that if the activity you are "hoarding" is detracting from your quality of life you might have a point and MANY--even MOST-- of us are guilty of that--

But if that activity is enriching your life, that's not hoarding--if editing your life is going to detract rather than add, then you are not hoarding activity. In other words, to me it sounds like CL is happy what she's doing almost all day long--except for washing dishes and cleaning house, and she's made a conscious decision to not give away her life energy to outsource those chores. So IMHO, it doesn't like she's guilty of too much activity in her life. She says she has a rich life, so who is to argue with that?

Most of us are guilty of having so much stuff that it gets in the way of our lives too. The Average American is probably a stage 2 hoarder. haha

Socrates said: "Beware the barrenness of a busy life."

So I beware. ;)

Also: What people say is not always reality. My mom says lots of her stuff is valuable or family heirlooms. This is not true.

Chicken lady

6-27-16, 12:59pm

I'm not sure that Socrates would agree that sitting on your butt doing absolutely nothing makes your life less barren.

I think if you are keeping "busy" riding around on your bike, attending atheist events and counting items, or shoveling manure, teaching classes, and shelving books to avoid forging real human connections and deal with your own issues and personal growth, then those activities can contribute to "barrenness" in your life.

but if those things contribute to your health and personal growth and enrich your life experience, they make your life full in a good way.

or maybe Socrates was saying, "be careful that you don't waste so much energy on 'doing' that you end up with no stuff!" :~)

On a note related to the original topic of the thread - dh and I went out for sandwiches this weekend and I left the fancy toothpicks on my plate. Also, I borrowed a springform pan so I can figure out if I'm going to want to make this cheesecake again before I go out and buy one.

Chicken lady

6-27-16, 1:02pm

Ultralight

6-27-16, 1:04pm

The leader of the minimalist group here in ColumbOH often asks about the "decluttering muscle."

When anyone tells her/us at a minimeet about a successful decluttering project she asks: "Does your decluttering muscle feel stronger?"

Ultralight

6-27-16, 1:06pm

Ultralite angler, how would you make that decision? At what point is cheesecake worth owning a cheesecake pan? Is it always better to just not have cheesecake in order to avoid the pan?

dh once had a gf who had never had pizza. She wouldn't try it. She said "pizza isn't good for me, so why would I find out if I like it?"

I'd like to meet her, maybe she could help me stay clean! My addiction to pizza is challenging! haha
I am almost four weeks clean now though (after a bad relapse in April and May).

You do bring up an interesting question though.

Teacher Terry

6-27-16, 1:32pm

UL: that article was really good. Without therapy the people relapse and go back to their old ways and eventually need another clean out, etc. It is like someone quitting drinking on their own-what you get is a dry drunk. I think as a society we tend to over schedule ourselves. At one point in my life when I was attending college f.t. and had 3 kids, etc I never watched tv or read a book for pleasure because I was way too busy. I made sure my kids were not over scheduled and had lots of time for free play. When people have too much to do each day they get grumpy. In semi-retirement I allow plenty of time for doing whatever I want. It makes for a better life. I do not jam pack my days.

Ultralight

6-27-16, 1:36pm

Busyness is a kind of debt.

http://www.raptitude.com/2015/09/busyness-is-a-kind-of-debt/

Ultralight

6-27-16, 1:43pm

Earlier in this thread, somewhere, we talked about whether or not hoarding is greed. Most folks seemed to agree, hoarding is not greedy.

If hoarding is not greed, then what is greed?

Now I realize this seems like a huge question.

But..here is google-provided definition of greed:

"Intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food."

Is a chronic over-eater with morbid obesity greedy?

Is a super-rich guy who makes tons and tons of money, more than he could ever spend greedy?

Is Trump greedy for wanted political power?

So is a person who wants way, way, way more stuff than they need greedy?

Or do they have a mental illness. And if they have a mental illness does not the over-eater, the Donald, and other super rich guy who amasses wealth he cannot ever spend or enjoy?

Teacher Terry

6-27-16, 2:35pm

Another interesting article. To answer your question I think it depends on the person. Some may merely be greedy while some may have a MI.

Ultralight

6-27-16, 2:37pm

Another interesting article. To answer your question I think it depends on the person. Some may merely be greedy while some may have a MI.

But how would the distinction be made?

Teacher Terry

6-27-16, 2:56pm

By the person in question being willing to take a psych eval by a licensed professional qualified to diagnose.

Chicken lady

6-27-16, 3:32pm

Or perhaps it's like "not guilty by reason of insanity" I think it should be very easy to make the arguement that killing another human in cold blood is not a sane thing to do. (Or, as I sometimes asked my kids "what made you think that was ok?")

there are Native American philosophies that view the entire western civilization as a mental illness - based in part on our relationship to material objects.

also, if you believe the studies that show hoarding has a genetic component, I'd argue that even with therapy what you have is a "dry drunk."

but I am really hoping UL will come back with some thoughts on this cheesecake pan.

ApatheticNoMore

6-27-16, 3:38pm

there are Native American philosophies that view the entire western civilization as a mental illness - based in part on our relationship to material objects.

it is, it is.

but I am really hoping UL will come back with some thoughts on this cheesecake pan

Well you can probably make cheesecakes in just a regular pan, like a regular glass Pyrex or something, I've seen it done. Homemade cheese cakes with a crumbly crust are great (no I don't eat them every day :)).

Ultralight

6-27-16, 3:48pm

By the person in question being willing to take a psych eval by a licensed professional qualified to diagnose.

What does the eval contain? Which criteria?

Is a rich person greedy or do they just like lots of money? Are the two really different?

So is a hoarder greedy because they have mountains of stuff or are they just a person who likes lots of stuff?

Ultralight

6-27-16, 3:51pm

there are Native American philosophies that view the entire western civilization as a mental illness - based in part on our relationship to material objects.

This is how I feel!

also, if you believe the studies that show hoarding has a genetic component, I'd argue that even with therapy what you have is a "dry drunk."

What does the dry drunk equivalent to a hoarder look like?

but I am really hoping UL will come back with some thoughts on this cheesecake pan.

If you love cheese cake and you love making it and you otherwise eat a health diet then maybe it is okay to get the pan. But I personally think it might be better to buy a few specialty cheesecakes a few times a year instead -- Thanksgiving, Xmas, your b-day, for instance.

Ultralight

6-27-16, 3:52pm

Well you can probably make cheesecakes in just a regular pan, like a regular glass Pyrex or something...

I was thinking this too.

Chicken lady

6-27-16, 4:26pm

I don't think I actually own a pan that is the correct volume for this cheesecake, but maybe I'll try it in the borrowed pan first and then if it's good, see if I can work with something I have.

here is what I like about this cheesecake -
i like dessert and I like cheese cake and I could stick it in the oven and come back an hour and a half later and have dessert for a whole week - or something impressive looking for company.
i am allergic to cow milk and this cheesecake is made with goat ricotta - lower calorie and an easy add on when I make mozerella.
also it has six eggs. I have a lot of eggs right now and this turns them into dessert!

i think a "dry drunk" hoarder is probably someone who is able to make rational decisions about what to keep and what to discard and who maybe would like to have more stuff, but doesn't because the available space is whatever definition of "full" is functional for them and the people affected by their space. (be that spouse or fire department)

that at decision making thing - that's the muscle that gets exercised. Hoarders do not make rational decisions about stuff. They rationalize their decisions, but every decision is emotional. It's really hard to learn that even though you are going to feel bad about getting rid of the stuff, if you have made a rational decision about it, that feeling will go away, and over time, it will be attached to fewer things and often less intense.

sweetana3

6-27-16, 4:39pm

My mom always made her cheesecake in a pie pan and served it just like a pie. Oh, it was yummy. Graham cracker crust, cheesecake filling and a sour cream spread as a topping. We did not have the money for fancy pans if they were even available in Alaska in the 50s.

Chicken lady

6-27-16, 10:09pm

Well, the cheesecake was dissapointing. So there's that.

iris lilies

6-27-16, 10:33pm

Well, the cheesecake was dissapointing. So there's that.

i even had a springform pan andvcould not make cheesecake worth a darn. I gave my pan away one day, lighter knowing that I Would no longer have to strive to make cheesecake.

Chicken lady

6-28-16, 7:22am

No, it came out fine, it's just not very rich, so why bother. :-(

i didn't buy the pan, and I am dehoarding the cheesecake recipe.

and I have decided not to bid on the doll I've been watching for three weeks, because she doesn't really add anything new or unique to my collection. (I have dolls that size, gender, ethnicity, period, material and coloring, I have a doll by that artist) She's just really pretty. I don't have room for all the really pretty dolls I will ever see for sale, no matter how good a deal they are. - I am learning to curate the collection instead of just collecting it!

Tammy

6-28-16, 12:50pm

UA - much of psychiatry is based in culture. Only 40 years ago homosexuality was a diagnosis. Only ten years ago transgender was a diagnosis. So I feel your concern... And this is coming from a psych nurse with 16 years experience who loves her work. 😄

Chicken lady

7-4-16, 7:40am

When my daughter got married, we had a brunch at our house. Much to my embarrassment dh gave the entire family a full tour of the addition project which included a trip through my still messy, over full, disorganized basement.

last night my brother in law approached me very gingerly. "I was wondering if I could ask you...as someone who has some issues with stuff...you know Kay (his wife) has some issues with stuff (an entire 2 car garage no one can see into for a start)...and when we were at your house...your basement...it seems like when we were there ten years ago......there used to be some interior walls (by which he means made of stuff)...Where did that go?" And I said "it's gone." And he said "how did you do that?!" So we talked for a while.

i don't know if she's ready for help or not, but it would be great if I could help her. They have clearly been unhappy for a long time (individually and together) and she and I used to be really good friends.

freshstart

7-4-16, 5:01pm

that would be wonderful if you could help someone else, especially since you've been there

Teacher Terry

7-4-16, 5:51pm

That would be great if she is open to help.

JaneV2.0

7-4-16, 6:02pm

I made a lovely, crack-free cheesecake in my instant pot once, so I bought a suitable springform pan to make more of them. It's gathering dust. But this thread reminded me of it, so I foresee a cheesecake in my future...

I'm donating my crepe pan, though...:D

Ultralight

7-12-16, 10:37am

Interesting story of a hoarder who claims to have recovered.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/12/inside-the-life-of-a-hoarder-trauma-loneliness-and-the-secret-power-of-things

Her parents were hoarders and she also had trauma that triggered hoarding and she is an extreme introvert.

Chicken lady

7-12-16, 10:53am

I found the article interesting. I'd like to read more of her story. I'm not sure where you got the idea that she's an extreme introvert though. She does describe herself at one point as being a "loaner" but she talked about being sad about not having friends as a kid and fantasizing about social activities, and having more friends now.

my mother worried about me "not having friends" as a kid and she kept inviting other kids over and I hated it and begged her not to. I fantasized about running away and living in the wilderness. Or on an island. Or in a secret underground castle...

Ultralight

7-12-16, 10:58am

Loners are often extreme introverts. She did say she had more friends now, which is good.

I have been thinking about the possibly analogous traits/conditions between hoarding and being overweight.

If you hang out with fitness types who eat healthy then you are likely to be or even become more fit and eat healthier.

I wonder about the effect that having friends who live simply with no clutter has on hoarders...

Chicken lady

7-12-16, 11:47am

We bring home all their unwanted stuff.

Ultralight

7-12-16, 12:05pm

We bring home all their unwanted stuff.

???

iris lilies

7-12-16, 12:06pm

We bring home all their unwanted stuff.
Dont you know it.

I have a long time acquaintance (wont use the word "friend" because she is currently driving me crazy) on whom I foist things having to do with our plant society. She is a whirling dervish of consumption. I mean, she wades into to every situation and grabs handfuls or armloads of stuff, be it free stuff or purchased. Papers, objects, plants, whatever--she grabs it all. And that is perfectly fine with me because I dont want it.

Unfortunately, she is "generous" and buys crap our plant society doesnt need. Then, someone has to transport it to storage. Thanks! not. I was happy that someone else said to her "now, you are going to store that stuff yourself, right?" when she purchased more useless stuff for our plant group last week.

I have not been to her house but I would bet $1,000 that it is crowded, unorganized, strewn with random things. I have never, not once in the 15 years I have known her from plant societies, seen one stem she has grown. I suspect she kills them all, throwing them around her porch or yard, forgetting to plant them. For her it is the acquisition that is key.

Ultralight

7-12-16, 12:20pm

She is a whirling dervish of consumption. I mean, she wades into to every situation and grabs handfuls or armloads of stuff, be it free stuff or purchased.

I am so amused and tickled by these turns of phrase! :+1:

Ultralight

7-12-16, 12:22pm

I used to enable hoarders in three ways:

1. Giving them stuff
2. Asking them for very specific things I needed (and telling them how much I would sincerely appreciate it)
3. Asking them to "store" stuff for me indefinitely

I did these things to my parents and my BIL and my significant other.

Teacher Terry

7-12-16, 2:23pm

My MIL was a hoarder so I would take anything she gave me and then take it to Goodwill. I never told her what I did with the stuff. IL: your description of your friend is hysterical:))

Ultralight

7-12-16, 2:32pm

So I have decided I am not going to enable the hoarders in my life -- no more giving them stuff, no more asking for stuff, and no more requesting that they "store" something for me.

The tricky thing is that they offer to let me store stuff because they are so, so afraid I might give about some thing that I will want later.

They also try to give me stuff in general.

And when I am going to Goodwill something they will ask for it.

iris lily

7-12-16, 3:47pm

My MIL was a hoarder so I would take anything she gave me and then take it to Goodwill. I never told her what I did with the stuff. IL: your description of your friend is hysterical:))

I was going to offload to her our two canvas bags that were forced on us at the conference, but miracle of miracles, this particular conference planning committee had canvas bags made that have no date or city printed on them! They can be used for future conferences! I am unloading them on mext year's committee.

Teacher Terry

7-12-16, 4:19pm

UL: just don't tell them when you are taking something to GW.

Ultralight

7-12-16, 4:22pm

Yup, I have two confirmed and two suspected hoarders in my life. I will not enable them anymore!

ApatheticNoMore

7-12-16, 4:31pm

I think you are beginning to see everyone as a hoarder :laff: Including those with an average amount of stuff kept clean.

JaneV2.0

7-12-16, 6:51pm

I think you are beginning to see everyone as a hoarder :laff: Including those with an average amount of stuff kept clean.

I said it once before--we all have our hobby horses. !Splat!

Chicken lady

7-12-16, 8:52pm

So, here is the thing ultralite - I have a friend who knows I am a hoarder, and she is a declutterer, (I won't venture to call her a minimalist!). She has offered to help me Clear out, to which I have responded "no thank you, I can't do that because you will want to throw a bunch of stuff away."

but she also gives me stuff I can actually use. She is good about asking me about the stuff when it is not in front of me and encouraging me to think clearly (I have an extra gazinga, can you use it? Are you sure?)

if you just refuse to give the hoarder things, you are treating them like a child instead of an adult who can make their own decisions. Which isn't actually helpful.

i'm not saying you should dump all your useless crap on them, but if you have something you genuinely think they could use or would really like, there is no reason not to offer it.

Ultralight

7-12-16, 9:00pm

if you just refuse to give the hoarder things, you are treating them like a child instead of an adult who can make their own decisions.

What is so wrong with treating them like a child?

Chicken lady

7-12-16, 9:05pm

Well, it's rather disrespectful to start, beyond that, the way you asked makes me think explaining is probably going to be harder than I'm up for.

anybody in your life treat you like a child? How do you feel about that? Is it helpful?

Teacher Terry

7-12-16, 10:28pm

CL: it is too bad you could not take up your friend on her offer. Your life and your DH's would be improved. Maybe someday you will be ready. Things do not equal love or companionship, etc.

Ultralight

7-13-16, 7:01am

I think you are beginning to see everyone as a hoarder :laff: Including those with an average amount of stuff kept clean.

I can tell the difference. The constellation of signs and symptoms is not that hard to recognize.

Ultralight

7-13-16, 7:04am

Well, it's rather disrespectful...

Maybe it is just an appropriate way to treat someone under the circumstances. Could that me?

anybody in your life treat you like a child? How do you feel about that? Is it helpful?

I don't know. I am not really sure what that means.

Chicken lady

7-13-16, 7:05am

Unfortunately the space she wanted to help declutter was my studio. I would have ended up with a clean, neat, orderly open space suitable for Pinterest and devoid of all the random crap I find inspirational.

and I really am going to dump the last inch of dried up glaze out of the bottles into mason jars and remix it and recycle the bottles. Eventually. Glaze is expensive. She would definitely throw those away.

we walked through the basement with the friends who were visiting Sunday night. I created a touch of artsy whimsy down there that I find pleasing (dh - "can't we just throw this crap out?") and was a little embarrassed by it because - preceding comment. But the wife - who has a very nice, well decorated house suitable for entertaining, although UA would hate it - think southern living magazine - ran her hand across it and said "oh! I love this!" Reminding me that the middle ground is wide and it's ok to have stuff around that simply pleases the senses. Because not everybody is UA or my dh - whose senses are pleased by empty surfaces, bare floors, and blank walls.

that paragraph above with all the diversions is how my brain works all the time. Ideally I would have been able to layer the words in 3D to more accurately express myself. And include pictures. Which is basically what I do to my environment.

Ultralight

7-13-16, 7:09am

Things do not equal love or companionship, etc.

Hoarders tend to isolate themselves. They seem to think that stuff will keep them company but what it really does is builds a wall between them and their family, friends, and community. It really is a sad state to be in -- like another other mental illness or addiction, of sorts.

I have trouble understanding it sometimes, both mentally and emotionally.

Like I think: "Why would someone shoot heroin into their arm? That is insane, dangerous, and destructive."

But people do it.

So I ask a similar question: "Why would someone hoard? Hoarding is insane, dangerous, and destructive."

Again, people do it (about 6% of Americans are hoarders).

Count the first 20 people you see today. One of them is a hoarder.

Chicken lady

7-13-16, 7:15am

It is only ok to treat someone "like a child" if you are responsible for them and they do not have adult capacity. If you don't feel it would be appropriate to seek a court appointed guardian for that person, then you should have the decency to treat them as a fully autonomous human being. It is not your role to protect people from themselves in ways that you have decided are needed without their input.

Honestly, I treat most children as adults in most situations.

try this - if you have say, a knife you want to get rid of, and your father expresses a need for such a knife, and you decide not to give it to him because you think he has too much stuff. (It's your knife to decide about, it's the paternalistic reason that is the problem) I see that as exactly the same as your father "helping" you fill out an absentee ballot because he thinks you don't understand the issues clearly. Or, to remove any shadow of voter fraud - helping you fill your closet because he thinks you do not own an appropriate range of clothing.

Chicken lady

7-13-16, 7:25am

Chicken lady

7-13-16, 7:28am

I was once discussing the farm with my brother in law and he said "so you can never go anywhere because you have goats." And I said "no. I have no desire to go anywhere. So I went ahead and got goats."

Ultralight

7-13-16, 7:57am

Any day I don't see 20 people is a good day.

i still think you are confusing collation with causation.

some hoarders are isolated because they are prevented from socializing by their stuff. others would lock people out of an empty room. Others invite people in anyway - they want socialization and don't care about/see the mess.

when you say to me "imagine what your life would look like if you had no stuff" the first image that springs to mind is me alone in the woods, minimally clothed and eating berries. there is no one with me. My ideal world would involve me never again seeing any people I don't know. Or also some of the ones I do know.

Are you a misanthrope?

Not everyone has every symptom or sign of hoarding, but they still hoard. I have yet to hear of someone who hoards but has none of the symptoms.

Hoarding is still a new problem, as far as study and treatment go.

So now, it is a situation like this:

Most hoarders exhibit certain personality traits or certain experiences or certain behaviors. So the dots are getting connected. Some might not apply to everyone.

So let us say I have 2 of the ten hoarding symptoms. I might not hoard. Maybe I have a concentration problem and an organizational problem. But let's suppose I am frugal and don't like to buy stuff and that I am just not materialistic. Again, I might not be a hoarder.

But let's say I have 8 of the 10 symptoms of hoarding. Chances are much stronger than I will be a hoarder.