Recovering hoarders?

[Chicken lady]

Hoarders tend to isolate themselves. They seem to think that stuff will keep them company but what it really does is builds a wall between them and their family, friends, and community. It really is a sad state to be in -- like another other mental illness or addiction, of sorts.

This is not a question. It is an assertion. Similar to many other assertions you have made in which you equate voluntary social isolation with pathology.

so let's explore your ideas.

hoarders tend to isolate themselves - yes. But I would say "most hoarders"

they seem to think that stuff will keep them company - perhaps, I have never met a hoarder who expressed that opinion. Have you? I have met many who prefer interacting with objects or animals to interacting with people. I consider that a valid preference. Some people want a job at the reception desk. Others would rather process orders alone from home.

what it really does is builds [sic] a wall between them and their family friends and community - in some cases this is done deliberately - I build this wall to keep you at bay - not the optimal solution, I would agree. When that wall is unwanted, then the wall is the problem. When the wall is a coping solution to another problem, then you need to step back and address *that* problem. If I turn my guest room into a storage unit because I want to keep the stuff and I don't want anybody to come visit, I'm not sure there is really a problem. Is there a problem if I get a smaller place because I don't want visitors to stay with me and just rent a small storage unit? An actual problem, not a conflict with your personal beliefs.

it really is a sad state to be in - "it" in this case appears to refer back to social isolation. If the person feels they have adequate human contact, why is it sad?

[Teacher Terry]

I think it is sad because you spend too much time thinking about stuff, trying to get rid of it, compromise with your DH who likes less, etc. So all your stuff is costing you time, precious life energy, thoughts, etc. There is a cost to everything that we do or don't choose in our lives.

[Chicken lady]

Oh, the hoarding is sad I guess (or I have some other words for it) but the being alone isn't sad.

i love my dh. I enjoy having him around pretty much all the time. But he used to travel for work when the kids were younger. And now he doesn't. And sometimes I fantasize about him having to travel some time now that the kids are out of the house and me getting to stay home all week all by myself and not go anywhere.....

he'd probably try to convince me to come along.

[JaneV2.0]

... There is a cost to everything that we do or don't choose in our lives.

I read somewhere--can't find it now--that introverts see people and things as interchangeable, more or less. Their brains don't light up any more when they see people, as extroverts' brains do. Not everyone is yearning to spend more time with other humans when there are books, animals, and yes things that give them more pleasure. I think it's sad that people can't just be who they are without a lot of armchair psychologizing by other people. (Also, books, animals, and things aren't always taking your inventory, judging, and gossiping about you. Win, win, win.)

[Teacher Terry]

I realize that it is fine for people to want to be alone, etc. No big deal. I find the hoarding part sad because so much time, energy gets sucked down the drain worrying etc about things.

[Teacher Terry]

Since we have semi-retired I look forward to having the house to myself occasionally and so does my DH. I have had friends that like animals more then people-no big deal either.

[JaneV2.0]

I agree that disorganization or hoarding may waste time, but so can dealing with people. I often observed that half of any given work day was consumed by gossip or other pointless chatter. So much of life--sitting in traffic, food prep, housework, working for a living--can be seen as wasted time. Maybe we spend an hour or day doing what we feel is meaningful. Maybe "meaningful" isn't what it's all about. (I have no idea what it's all about, really.)

[Teacher Terry]

People do waste much time complaining at work. That is one of the things i love about being semi-retired and working from home is that I am in charge of my time.

[Ultralight]

I read somewhere--can't find it now--that introverts see people and things as interchangeable, more or less. Their brains don't light up any more when they see people, as extroverts' brains do. Not everyone is yearning to spend more time with other humans when there are books, animals, and yes things that give them more pleasure. I think it's sad that people can't just be who they are without a lot of armchair psychologizing by other people. (Also, books, animals, and things aren't always taking your inventory, judging, and gossiping about you. Win, win, win.)

I believe it was H.L Mencken who said:

"For every complex question there is a simple answer. And it is wrong."

When folks say "Why can't we just let people be who they are?!" I roll my eyes. Why? Because that it one of H.L.'s wrong and simple answers.

Almost all "just" statements are as such.

"He is just a funny guy!" But why is he funny?

"She is just a sad lady." But why is she sad?

And there is so, so much that goes into the creation of a personality that it, frankly Jane, is not as simple as "just let people be who they are!"

So when someone likes stuff more than people, I wonder why they do so. Would they like other people more than stuff if they were raised differently? If they went to a different school? If they had better friends? If they had grown up with siblings or not? Etc.

Ya dig?

Maybe if you worried less about people taking your inventory, judging, and gossiping about you then maybe you'd have less affinity for stuff and like other folks more. Or, dare I say it...attract better people into your social circle?

Personally I believe what Daniel Suelo has said:

"What other people think about you is none of your business."

[Tammy]

I'm becoming more introverted the older I get. And I'm a minimalist.

These traits come in many combinations.

[Tammy]

The friend who wanted to help clean up the studio -- I wish she instead had offered to help in other ways. Such as "every time you have a carload of stuff for goodwill call me and I'll drive it in for you." Or "I'll bring my truck over and haul your big pile of trash to the recycling for you."

Something practical and helpful that stayed out of the decision making process. This would be true help.

[herbgeek]

I think it's sad that people can't just be who they are without a lot of armchair psychologizing by other people. (Also, books, animals, and things aren't always taking your inventory, judging, and gossiping about you. Win, win, win.)

I think Jane means you UL.

Chicken Lady doesn't need to be picked apart in public by you, just because you are curious/nosy as to what makes her tick. She's under no compulsion to answer your invasive questions, though she has been very gracious in doing so.

So if we're exploring questions, as you say UL, why does someone who is a minimalist and says they don't shop feel the compulsion to count and inventory what they own every week or two? If you know you haven't added, why keep counting? Did you know that counting things over and over is part of the OCD spectrum? Why are you so OCD? Do you think if you had better friends growing up, you wouldn't be so OCD? Should someone treat you just like a child and tell you that you are being silly for counting? Should someone who knows better take away your spreadsheet?

Just exploring here. ;)

[Chicken lady]

Sometimes my friend brings me food, because she lives alone and likes to cook. That is very helpful. She also gives me objective feedback on my progress/backsliding as she is not here often and able to look at the physical environment with no emotional involvement. And she participates in my occaisional need to have a conversation with a normal human about wether or not something should be thrown away without laughing or looking at me like I am an idiot. (I think that is helpful, although sometimes I set something aside to figure out "when Toni comes" - which could be a month as I never invite her over, she just shows up sometimes.) I am pretty good at hauling the stuff to goodwill.

i don't think I've ever been called "gracious" before - lol. I'm guessing it's my irl "thanks for stopping by, now when are you leaving?" Vibe. Ultraliteangler started this thread, so I feel like we're in his house. His house, his rules. You don't like it.... Also, he makes me think.

i am am dissapointed at not getting responses to my reflections on introversion and hoarding though - i really do want to know why you seem so intent on tying the two together and painting them with the same brush.

another thought along those lines - I have two daughters. Both are what I would call high extroverts. The older one is a minimalist, married to a "keeper" (I don't think he's a hoarder, but he's only 25...) who loves to entertain. The younger one has such a strong need to be around other people that she sometimes lets them treat her badly and forgives easily. When she had trouble lining up a college roommate because her friends were moving off campus (I can't move off campus, I'll be away from everything) I suggested a single and she was horrified. She chose a potluck transfer student instead. That is the one who worries me because I see strong hoarding characteristics in her relationship to stuff. My uncle who hoarders is also very social.

[Ultralight]

Okay, herbgeek -- watch and learn!


I think Jane means you UL.

She can mean me if she wants. My response is still valid.


Chicken Lady doesn't need to be picked apart in public by you, just because you are curious/nosy as to what makes her tick. She's under no compulsion to answer your invasive questions, though she has been very gracious in doing so.

This is a thread about recovering hoarders. We talk about symptoms, signs, causes, reasons for, and other issues surrounding hoarding and hoarders, and how this might relate to simple living.

I agree. She can stop answering questions. No problem there. That is her choice. I also agree that she is quite gracious and -- I would say -- civic minded to answer questions, dispute assertions, and explore ideas here. I certainly appreciate it.


So if we're exploring questions, as you say UL, why does someone who is a minimalist and says they don't shop feel the compulsion to count and inventory what they own every week or two?

Ummm... I don't count things every week or two. Recently I bought a new bike because my old one was uncomfortable and I do a lot more riding now. But that was Monday. I have not gotten around to adding it to my spreadsheet yet, though I will by tomorrow night. I only adjust the count in my spreadsheet when I add or subtract something, which is not often because -- as you noted -- I don't really shop and I am a minimalist.


If you know you haven't added, why keep counting?

Uhhh... I don't.


Did you know that counting things over and over is part of the OCD spectrum?

That would not surprise me, but again -- I don't count things over and over. That actually seems like it would be really weird and pointless.


Why are you so OCD?

This is a loaded question. Imagine if I asked you this: "Why do you kick puppies?"

See how the question implies something that has not yet been proven?


Do you think if you had better friends growing up, you wouldn't be so OCD?

I think that better friends growing up would have had a massive effect on the trajectory of my life. But the OCD thing that you have dreamed up about me does not fit the bill.


Should someone treat you just like a child and tell you that you are being silly for counting? Should someone who knows better take away your spreadsheet?

If someone wants to treat me like a child then they can if they want. That would be a dumb *ss waste of their time though. If someone wants to take away my spreadsheet -- and I assume you mean steal it -- then that would be unfortunate. But I don't have many things, so I could make a new one in like 20 minutes.


Just exploring here. ;)

Good!

[Ultralight]

i am am dissapointed at not getting responses to my reflections on introversion and hoarding though - i really do want to know why you seem so intent on tying the two together and painting them with the same brush.

another thought along those lines - I have two daughters. Both are what I would call high extroverts. The older one is a minimalist, married to a "keeper" (I don't think he's a hoarder, but he's only 25...) who loves to entertain. The younger one has such a strong need to be around other people that she sometimes lets them treat her badly and forgives easily. When she had trouble lining up a college roommate because her friends were moving off campus (I can't move off campus, I'll be away from everything) I suggested a single and she was horrified. She chose a potluck transfer student instead. That is the one who worries me because I see strong hoarding characteristics in her relationship to stuff. My uncle who hoarders is also very social.

I have reflected on your questions about introversion and hoarding.

Here is a thought: Maybe introversion can make hoarding worse, or make it faster -- like an introvert has more time to hoard than someone who is out and about interacting with friends often.

But you may be right, and perhaps introversion is not a causal factor in hoarding. This is possible.

My mom is extroverted. I thought that perhaps she was an exception who missed that trait but had all the others.

Then I thought about my significant other, who I suspect is a hoarder. She is also extroverted. '

So I just don't know. I think after another decade of research we'll have a lot more knowledge about hoarders. So much is still speculative.

Tell me what makes you see hoarding characteristics in your daughter's relationship to stuff.

[Chicken lady]

She acquires easily - if you offer her something, she will pretty much take it. She always rescued her siblings cast offs, she anthropomorphizes, she has difficulty discarding things because they might be useful or because they have an emotional connection to a person for her, she has the creative/artistic trait going which leads to hoarding of supplies, she loves to shop (I do not love to shop because stores are full of people) she has difficulty making decisions about things, and she keeps her environment messy and cluttered.

Because she is a young woman, being out and about and having many friends contributes to her acquiring - so many opportunities to shop, so many gifts....

also so random thought - my other two children had "comfort objects" as babies and outgrew them. This one never attached to anything. Her family has always been her "comfort object" to the point where going away to college was a significant traumatic event.

You say your mom is extroverted, but she doesn't want people in the house. Do you think an outside observer would consider her an extrovert based on her behavior? I lean toward unwanted social isolation being an effect of hoarding, rather than introversion being a cause. I think being an introvert and hoarding might be like being male and ADD.

[Ultralight]

Yeah, that is a tough situation with your daughter. What can be done?

My dad does not want people in the house. My mom does not mind as long as she thinks they won't judge her. She does not want me in the house because I judge her. She also thinks I am going to take pics of the place and turn her in -- then the house could be condemned and/or I would get her dogs taken away.

[iris lilies]

....Then I thought about my significant other, who I suspect is a hoarder. She is also extroverted...

Aha, here is a revelation.



...Tell me what makes you see hoarding characteristics in your daughter's relationship to stuff....

No, you tell US what makes you see hoarding characteristics in your SO's relationship to stuff.

[Ultralight]

I am worried about my Significant Other and her clutter, her relationship to stuff.

Her closets are overflowing. She has piles and piles of clothes in her basement. She cannot park in her garage because it is so full of stuff.

She has a bedroom ("the paper room") where she keeps all sorts of papers, some that need keeping (legal documents, etc.) but also so many that don't need keeping. The room is dedicated to this paper clutter.

She also buys massive amounts of groceries and loves to shop, especially for groceries.

She has problems concentrating and difficulty organizing things. She likes crafts, though she does not do them much, rather she buy and keeps lots of crafting equipment.

I do not like to go to her house because the clutter drives me crazy. I have tried to talk to her about it.

I explained that being a minimalist with no clutter has made me 20% happier in life. This is huge for someone like me who was born with the blues.

She had a "packing party" which I attended. I wrote about it on here.

But she ended up throwing some stuff away, donating other stuff, and giving away a few things. But she also just unpacked and kept tons of stuff and then just stuffed many of the boxes we all packed for her back into her closets.

I am obviously frustrated about the situation. And I do note the irony that I have somehow ended up with a significant other who is at least a major clutter bug and is possibly a compulsive hoarder.

The thing is, I am not willing to give up that 20% happiness increase. I just can't. I need it. I need it to keep on keepin' on in life.

So if we stay together, it'll be me living alone and her visiting me at my place in perpetuity.

[iris lily]

This reminds me of the radio interview I heard last night from Terry Gross on NPR. She interviewed an author who wrote a book about her marriage to a Navy guy. The author said (paraphrasing) "Because my dad was gone half of my life working on an oil rig, I knew i didnt want to marry someone who was gone from our family."

So, she married a Navy guy, having met him just after he completed officer training school. Yeah, that worked out well! Not. At least the stress and problems of his absences gave her somethng to write about, there is that.

And here you are UL, obsessed with people who collect, people who hoard. And there you are, in this relationship.

What a waste for both of you. You will never respect her. She needs to get out.

[Ultralight]

And here you are UL, obsessed with people who collect, people who hoard. And there you are, in this relationship.

See above where I mention how I am aware of this irony.


What a waste for both of you. You will never respect her. She needs to get out.

This is a bit harsh.

Never respect her? How do you get this?

[Chicken lady]

With my daughter I do a LOT of sharing the process I'm going through. I also try to help her sort through her belongings regularly and we talk a lot about thoughts and feelings and reasons to discard items. I also zone her - she can only keep her stuff in her room, her closet (which is not in her room) and a specific section of storage rack. This helps keep her aware of what she has and discourages putting things "here for now".

i think that making decisions and processing items helps build healthy pathways in the brain.

on judging. That's unfortunate. My kids judged me when they were younger, but every teenager judges their parents (and I bet every parent comes up short). They have grown past that and we have more adult relationships now. They still "judge" as in "have opinions on" my home, but they do not "judge" as in "criticize and blame" me. The thoughts they express are based more evaluating on effects and results and less on evaluating my thoughts and actions. ("It was great that we could all stay at the house" vs. "I'm glad you finally cleaned out the guest room.") or ("if the dolls make you happy, you should be able to have the out where you can enjoy them." Vs. "why the h*ll would you want to collect those?")

i like to think I'm reaping the reward of how they were raised. When someone got hurt or caused damage or a problem, I always tried to start by determining the intent and thoughts behind their actions. It was important to me that they deal with the consequences of their actions, but there was a huge difference to me between breaking a vase because you were trying to put it away (so next time you'll make sure it's dry, wait for help if it's heavy, etc. ok, now let's clean this up. I know you're sorry, I can get a new one.) or because you threw it (let's talk about better ways to deal with your anger, you realize this could have ended a lot worse, you will need to earn the money to replace that, no you can't help him in the kitchen unless I'm there, last time you threw a vase at him and I'm not confident yet that you won't do it again...) because of poor judgement (this is one of the reasons we don't run in the living room...) or by accident (I know you didn't see the vase on the edge of the counter. That was basically my fault. Or just be more careful, ok?)

i also am am curious as to what makes you think your s.o. Is a hoarder. I remember you talking once about a garage full of "future garage sale stuff" but I seem to recall that a garage sale actually happened? Do you have other concerns? - oops, took too long to type. Reading now.

[iris lilies]

See above where I mention how I am aware of this irony.



This is a bit harsh.

Never respect her? How do you get this?

And here, you fooled us into thinking it was just religion that was the big issue with yu two.

My take on your view of life is that you dislike hoarding above all else, it influences your daily actions, it permeates your regular thoughts.

I only know you from a message board but dude, your near constant references to hoarding shows at you have more than a little problem with it. No matter who is hoarding you will have a problem with that behavior, it will grate on you, you will needle her, you will fuss with her actions.

Let me be clear, I am not saying you should dump the GF only because you will never be able to live with her. Plenty of people can have great relationships and maintan separate households.

Her potential hoarding is an extreme red flag in a relationship with you regardless of where you two live.

I am curious to know how she doesnt see that. She has shown you who she is, you have shown her you cant stand that. How can rational adults think they can overcome this with Luuurv?

[Chicken lady]

So now, I really want to know how one determines one is 20% happier.

so you are going to zone her by house.

And yep, she sounds like me. I think you have said she is resigned to the idea that she will never have children if she is with you? I would not have found that acceptable, but, assuming I was single, if I had met dh after my children were grown (now) and I had my own house, I would never have married him or cleaned out for him. I'd be perfectly content with the zoned by house arrangement.

[Ultralight]

And here, you fooled us into thinking it was just religion that was the big issue with yu two.

My take on your view of life is that you dislike hoarding above all else, it influences your daily actions, it permeates your regular thoughts.

I only know you from a message board but dude, your near constant references to hoarding shows at you have more than a little problem with it. No matter wh is hoarding you will have a problem with that behavior, it will grate on you, you will needle her, you will fuss with her actions.

Let me be clear, I am not saying you should dump the GF only because you will never be able to live with her. Plenty of people can have great relationships and maintan separate households.

Her potential hoarding is an extreme red flag in a relationship with you regardless of where you two live.

I am curious to know how she doesnt see that? She has shown you who she is, you have shown her you cant stand that. How can rational adults think they can overcome this with Luuurv?


She and I have split up several times over the past three years. Once was for like 10 months. She initiates trying again. I have been willing to try again and again.

I am getting pretty long in the tooth, and break-ups really take a lot out of me emotionally.

For her, I think she sees a guy who is polite, kind, principled, and employed. And that is good enough, plenty really.

The differences on stuff and on atheism/religion don't matter much to her.

[Ultralight]

So now, I really want to know how one determines one is 20% happier.

so you are going to zone her by house.

And yep, she sounds like me. I think you have said she is resigned to the idea that she will never have children if she is with you? I would not have found that acceptable, but, assuming I was single, if I had met dh after my children were grown (now) and I had my own house, I would never have married him or cleaned out for him. I'd be perfectly content with the zoned by house arrangement.

20% is my best guess. I'd say 10% would be the number that meditation has helped me to be more happy.

I know this: Since I simplified my life I have been a lot happier. My depression rarely goes too deep. My blue moods don't last as long. It is easier to relax.

Why would you have never married him? Why would you not be cleaning out for him?

[Ultralight]

My take on your view of life is that you dislike hoarding above all else, it influences your daily actions, it permeates your regular thoughts.

I only know you from a message board but dude, your near constant references to hoarding shows at you have more than a little problem with it. No matter who is hoarding you will have a problem with that behavior, it will grate on you, you will needle her, you will fuss with her actions.

Also:

I do think about the issue of hoarding often, but probably not as often as you might think from this forum.

Hoarding is mostly an intellectual interest, though obviously some real-life stuff comes into play too, and I think about that -- such as with my parents and with my significant other.

I spend a lot of time thinking about books I am reading, various social issues, how I will probably do some fishing from shore in September, how I can walk or bike somewhere, fun ways to keep Harlan entertained, food, music, nature, etc.

[Chicken lady]

I am not a piece of paper girl. For me, marriage represented a security that was nice to have but primarily created a structure for raising children - home and family. The division of labor we created was such that he provided the majority of the financial support and with my age and work history, now, I could never catch up, so obtaining my own independently supported hoarder friendly home is not an option (I think he would choose me to keep the farm and he get a condo in the city). Also, I'm used to living with him and I like it - Most the time.

However, if I were financially independent, accustomed to living alone, and had my own house, I would be unwilling to share my space, complicate my finances, and compromise my independence, for what? What would I get out of marriage and a shared home that I couldn't have without those things? Single women live longer.

[Chicken lady]

Also, dh would not be happy living by himself. He turned down a short term posting overseas because I refused to go. I thought he should just get a little apartment and enjoy it. He thought I was insane.

[Ultralight]

However, if I were financially independent, accustomed to living alone, and had my own house, I would be unwilling to share my space, complicate my finances, and compromise my independence, for what? What would I get out of marriage and a shared home that I couldn't have without those things? Single women live longer.

For what? I dunno... Men are considered superfluous nowadays, for the most part.

Single women live longer?

[Chicken lady]

Single women live longer. Y'all cause a lot of wear and tear.

i'm not saying you're superfluous, I'm saying if you're willing to provide me with companionship and an exclusive sexual relationship and I already have a house and an income, I don't see the need to change anything.

[Ultralight]

I said men are mostly superfluous. I know you didn't.

[Teacher Terry]

Many people choose not to live together so I don't see the big deal about UL and his GF. I have read about married couples that have bought homes next to each other because one of them couldn't live with the other due to messiness, etc. If I had to guess I would think that probably more hoarders are introverted because extroverts want to have people over. If somebodies home is too messy and dirty it is hard for me to visit for very long. It just feels nasty.

[Chicken lady]

My point was that if he's holding his breath for her to change so that he can live with her, he should probably stop. If he's ok with the status quo, then all good, it is what it is.

[Ultralight]

I am not okay with it. But I have not told her "no way" about living together.

Ideally I would like to live with a life partner.

But again, I really just sink when I think of another break-up. I am too old and too tired for this kind of thing.


Who knows? Maybe if I told her "no" to living together then she'd be okay with that. But really, she might be like: "Why?"

Then I say: "You are a hoarder."

How do you think someone would take that?


I am not so sure she would gain much of anything by us living together. She makes like $20k more a year than me. She has a whole house, a nice little yard, and a two car garage. I am, more or less, superfluous.

[Teacher Terry]

You live so minimally that I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that lives like you do. So you would probably have to live in her house and adjust to the way she lives. Maybe have 1 room that is all yours and very neat. Compromise if you can-if not then you will be living alone.

[Ultralight]

You live so minimally that I think you would be hard pressed to find someone that lives like you do. So you would probably have to live in her house and adjust to the way she lives. Maybe have 1 room that is all yours and very neat. Compromise if you can-if not then you will be living alone.

I have zero intention of moving into her house. Like I said, I am not going back to being as depressed as I was before or living in a mess.

I grew up that way and I ain't going back to it.

[Ultralight]

I am not so sure you understand how much a 20% increase in happiness means to someone who has been depressed since the summer of 1979.

[Teacher Terry]

I was just pointing out that your only choice is to do it if you want to live with someone. You want to live with a clone of yourself which I don't see happening. You are much more minimalist then most people.

[Ultralight]

I was just pointing out that your only choice is to do it if you want to live with someone. You want to live with a clone of yourself which I don't see happening. You are much more minimalist then most people.

I could live with someone who is not a minimalist, but I ain't living with a hoarder or even a clutterbug.

[Teacher Terry]

Most people just aren't that neat>8)

[Ultralight]

Most people just aren't that neat>8)

True.

[freshstart]

my ailing mother's resounding theme is that we are going to spend an hour a day dealing with her basement hoard. First of all, her oxygen doesn't go that far and it is grossly unsafe for her to do that many stairs. Second, the only thing she can do for a whole hour is sleep! But the hoard is bothering her, I think her thinking about it all the time has ratcheted up her OCD behaviors, i.e.: takes an hour to take 4 pills because she constantly has to re-check that they are correct.

I could bring the hoard to her if I were more steady on my feet, but I still have a blood pressure in the toilet and frankly not falling coming up the stairs is a challenge without a box in my arms. Plus, I am in the middle of getting 2 eye surgeries done and cannot lift for the next 2 months. Medical stuff is going on with my dad, bad time for him and me to tackle it.

I sympathize with her, the hoard keeps me awake, but I don't see a way to resolve it in the near future. How do I give her some peace?

[iris lilies]

my ailing mother's resounding theme is that we are going to spend an hour a day dealing with her basement hoard. First of all, her oxygen doesn't go that far and it is grossly unsafe for her to do that many stairs. Second, the only thing she can do for a whole hour is sleep! But the hoard is bothering her, I think her thinking about it all the time has ratcheted up her OCD behaviors, i.e.: takes an hour to take 4 pills because she constantly has to re-check that they are correct.

I could bring the hoard to her if I were more steady on my feet, but I still have a blood pressure in the toilet and frankly not falling coming up the stairs is a challenge without a box in my arms. Plus, I am in the middle of getting 2 eye surgeries done and cannot lift for the next 2 months. Medical stuff is going on with my dad, bad time for him and me to tackle it.

I sympathize with her, the hoard keeps me awake, but I don't see a way to resolve it in the near future. How do I give her some peace?

Its not your responsibility to give her peace. She is the agent of that hoard, she has to live with the consequences.

The hoard will still be there when you all have better health and can tackle it then.

[Chicken lady]

Assuming you chose to eliminate the option of not doing this at all, You had family and a cleaning person that were helping at one point, could you ask one of those people to carry two boxes up to the living room? Then you and your mother could sit on the couch and work through them for as much of her hour as she could handle.

having been through this, two boxes is plenty to start, and it wouldn't be too bad of a mess in the living room. One box might even be enough. It would be time that you could spend with your mom supporting her in what she wants to do, and you could both sit on the couch. It's more about your mom trying to make decisions at this point than it is about a huge clean out.

[freshstart]

my dad is now down for the count but we do have a cleaning lady who would bring up boxes. There just seems like there are a 100 of them and it will take forever to do it that way but she is a great option, I didn't even think of that. My cousin's DD and her friend who stayed with us for 3 weeks were supposed to organize the whole thing, they offered that. But they did not follow through, bummer. My parents were too nice to ask them to keep their end of the bargain once again putting off dealing with the hoard and that's on them, I felt the girls should be spoken to.

I know I probably can't give my mom peace of mind, I just wish I could. She is getting sicker and it is extremely hard to watch her suffer. I want to go down there and take care of the whole mess and bring her down one day and say "ta-da". But I physically can't yet.

[Ultralight]

Its not your responsibility to give her peace. She is the agent of that hoard, she has to live with the consequences.

The hoard will still be there when you all have better health and can tackle it then.

I agree with this.

Also: Allowing yourself to be continually roped into working on this "with" or "for" her will likely not change her behavior. She will continue to hoard, most likely.

A common trapped that children of hoarders fall into is "helping" their parents clean. They do it out of the best of intentions most times. But it is almost universally folly. Beware.

[Lainey]

Interesting - there's a new program offered by the Area Agency on Aging about seniors who are hoarders. They are opening it to anyone age 55+.
http://aaaphx.org/eldervention-many-treasures-hoarding-program-support-group-begin-september/

I hadn't heard the term "eldervention" until this.

[Ultralight]

Excellent link! Thanks!

[freshstart]

I agree with this.

Also: Allowing yourself to be continually roped into working on this "with" or "for" her will likely not change her behavior. She will continue to hoard, most likely.

A common trapped that children of hoarders fall into is "helping" their parents clean. They do it out of the best of intentions most times. But it is almost universally folly. Beware.

you're right because we don't fight often but we fight every single time I have ever tried to help her with her hoard my entire life. Why am I even considering this? Because she's said she's not at peace with it. Well, neither am I but helping with it is only going to increase my lack of peace. thanks with help with a reality check. She needs to do this alone with the cleaning lady if it bothers her so much.

[nswef]

Freshstart it appears you are having an epiphany moment. I remember when I was seeing counselor and she would say something that made so much sense and was so simple that I just could not see on my own. Had to do with choosing when to call my mother rather than responding when she called me all het up about something. It made a world of difference. Good for you. Let the cleaning lady deal with "helping" and you find your own peace. Good luck!!!

[freshstart]

thanks! I think that was an epiphany. A side benefit of my mother's disease is her oxygen cord doesn't reach my end of the house. So she sees me on my terms, unless she's calling. That will save me from endless hoard related discussions

[nswef]

The surprising gifts of oxygen tanks...

[Ultralight]

This lady is saying she is going to do a complete de-hoard in a weekend. Thoughts?

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2016/07/19/hoarder-comes-out-from-the-clutter-embraces-clean-sweep/

[Chicken lady]

I wish her luck. I hope it works for her.

[Lainey]

I'd be curious to check in with that lady and see how she's doing 6 mos - 1 year after the clean sweep. She certainly sounded motivated on the video but I wonder if it's really going to stick.

[Teacher Terry]

I think the clean sweep is really the only way to make change. Clean house show did something similar and when they went back a few years later few people had relapsed also they were not as bad as the show hoarders but still pretty bad.

[Chicken lady]

If the people generally relapse, how is it the only way to make change? Have there been any studies of people who turned themselves around slowly - it seems like surgical weight reduction vs. life changes leading to gradual weight loss.

[Ultralight]

People generally relapse. That is essentially all there is to it. A very, very few ever hold on to their weight loss or their decluttered house or their sobriety.

[freshstart]

we occasionally had volunteers in hospice who would help with a hoarder's home before they died, I never told the volunteer's but they always relapsed unless they were bed bound and physically could not re-hoard.

[Lainey]

It's amazing that even as their physical body starts to fail, that drive to hoard remains to the end.

[mschrisgo2]

I am in the process of helping to clean out a hoarders' previous home, a darling little garden cottage of about 650 sq ft. There is a long driveway, a deck, a patio, and a shed- all were stuffed full of TRASH. The house itself was stuffed with furniture- 14 pieces just in the bedroom- and literally a ton of clothing, enough dishes to serve and feed about 50 people at once, 3 refrigerators and 2 freezers full... and everything coated with a very thick layer of nicotine residue. YUCK!!

The house itself has had no maintenance, of course, for the 16 years they were there. The trees and roses are overgrown and in need of attention. There are at least 75 pots outdoors with varying degrees of dead plants in them.

An older couple lived there. The husband died of cancer, and 5 months later the wife just walked out and left it. The friend that I'm helping is planning to move in, in a couple of months when it is finally clean.

This past Monday we stacked up a pile 24 ft long, 4 ft wide, 4 ft tall for the "annual extra garbage" pickup- thankfully, free. Another truck and trailer load of beds, carpet, portable dressers, broken chairs, went to the dump the Friday before that. I took my car full of dishes to the local animal rescue thrift store. I felt bad because they were dirty, but they insisted it was fine, they were happy to get them, "people buy dishes."

We're still looking for a way to get 6 dressers, 3 tables, and 3 occasional tables back into use. Haven't been able to find an organization that will pick them up...

[Lainey]

mschrisgo2, You are a good friend to help in all of this. Maybe as you get closer to the end, you can post on Freecycle or Craigslist for the remaining pieces like the dressers and tables that are in good condition.
Bringing a house like that back to life is no small thing.

[Ultralight]

I am in the process of helping to clean out a hoarders' previous home, a darling little garden cottage of about 650 sq ft. There is a long driveway, a deck, a patio, and a shed- all were stuffed full of TRASH. The house itself was stuffed with furniture- 14 pieces just in the bedroom- and literally a ton of clothing, enough dishes to serve and feed about 50 people at once, 3 refrigerators and 2 freezers full... and everything coated with a very thick layer of nicotine residue. YUCK!!

The house itself has had no maintenance, of course, for the 16 years they were there. The trees and roses are overgrown and in need of attention. There are at least 75 pots outdoors with varying degrees of dead plants in them.

An older couple lived there. The husband died of cancer, and 5 months later the wife just walked out and left it. The friend that I'm helping is planning to move in, in a couple of months when it is finally clean.

This past Monday we stacked up a pile 24 ft long, 4 ft wide, 4 ft tall for the "annual extra garbage" pickup- thankfully, free. Another truck and trailer load of beds, carpet, portable dressers, broken chairs, went to the dump the Friday before that. I took my car full of dishes to the local animal rescue thrift store. I felt bad because they were dirty, but they insisted it was fine, they were happy to get them, "people buy dishes."

We're still looking for a way to get 6 dressers, 3 tables, and 3 occasional tables back into use. Haven't been able to find an organization that will pick them up...

I wonder if the husband was the hoarder and the wife was just...unable to take it anymore and walked away from the hoard.

[Teacher Terry]

did you call your local thrift stores? Here they will come pick up with a truck. It is so nice of your to help with this mess. Very sad.

[freshstart]

you are incredibly kind to do this for your friend

have you tried leaving the furniture on the edge of the front yard? around here that stuff is gone by morning

[freshstart]

It's amazing that even as their physical body starts to fail, that drive to hoard remains to the end.

I had a lady addicted to QVC jewelry right up to ordering on the day she later died. I never saw so much jewelry (costume) in one place before even in a store. box upon box, trunk upon trunk of earrings and necklaces that were never once worn. Her children said she never went out so even when she was well she never wore any of it.

I swear there is a hoarder switch in the brain.

[freshstart]

today I was not so hot with my mom, she needed a towel, I opened the linen closet and the giant garbage bag filled with empty pill bottles fell out. I am so sick of seeing and handling this bag that is clearly trash. I gave her the towel but said I would be back later to deal with the bottles. She's screeching I can't throw them out. I think I'm not going back in and my father can cover this one.

the problem for me with hoarders is I need them to have a "why?" as in justify why you are keeping item xyz. And hoarders don't have a rationale why and I can't deal with the crazy answers when it comes to my mother. I can do it with others, with her it makes me crazy. Throw out the hundreds of pill bottles, why can't she do that? Even though I know the answer, I still get upset.

[Chicken lady]

Random dehoarding narrative - I'm sorry, this is going to be long, or maybe more than one post.

so my plan for today was for my big job to be processing milk, because this is the peak of milk production, my freezer containers are full, and my fridge is backing up.

but first I needed to clean the kitchen. Which was a bigger job than I thought. And while I had the dishwasher running, I realized I couldn't find the cajeta recipe, and then I thought about just picking another job. But I decided to just put the laundry away while the dishwasher was running and make cheese instead.

and I was watching an episode of hoarders while I put the laundry away. It was an episode when the house wasn't awful, it was just FULL. No mice, no dog poop, no tiny little tunnels, no dust masks, just a lot of stuff.

and I LOOKED at my house, and I saw places where I am backsliding, putting things "here for now". So I decided instead of making cheese, I would work my way back in time.

i started with today's mail - all recycled or filed

then the flier I saved yesterday about the doll auction - recycled! I'm not going! (Unprocessed Mail prior to that is mixed into my "in box" - which sadly is an actual 12x10x18 box.)

then I started cleaning up from fair week - putting away the things I took to enter. As I moved around the house I found a book for the goodwill pile, and a plaque that says "my house is clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy" - nice thought, but no. Goodwill pile! Pot I never glazed because I don't like it - trash! Dried grain stems "to make decorations" - compost! And I looked at the fair ribbons and realized that because I carried everything home in a basket, many of them were wrinkled (plan to return them is in purge thread) and I thought, well, I could press them, and then a voice in my head reminded me that I had been assured they cost pennies, and I THREW THEM ALL AWAY.

and when I was in the basement I gathered up the egg cartons that I keep not using because they aren't really structurally sound anymore, and (pausing to imagine eggs tumbling to the floor) I threw them away. And I noticed I could smell the cat box.

the cat is an indoor/outdoor cat and only uses the litter box if he gets trapped inside too long. He was a 16th birthday gift for my son. And even after my son left for college, we kept up the fiction that the cat belongs to him. Whenever he came home (about once a month) he would clean the litter box. My son graduated in May, he packed up and moved to Wisconsin, he came back for a very fast visit for my daughter's wedding in June. The litter box has not been cleaned for two months. Here is reality - my son lives in Wisconsin. He did not take the cat. The cat is now mine. I cleaned the litter box. And I cried.

and then I dumped the used cat litter in the trash can so I wouldn't change my mind and try to save the fair ribbons.

i won't be done with fair clean up until I clean out my car and take stuff to goodwill on Thursday (I have plastic necklaces from fair to take). But I moved back to the week after we went east - I cleaned the boxes off the porch. I put the jam making equipment away, I still have more to do.

i know ultralite has suggested that all my activities are a form of hoarding, but I think they are more "what I would rather be doing than cleaning up after myself/dealing with the hoard. I would still rather be doing many other things, but I am realizing I need to put the breaks on and dig. I can't just do what I want because I am externalizing the costs.

when we started homeschooling, someone asked dh how the homeschooling was going, and he said "oh, the homeschooling is going great! (Dw) loves homeschooling. The house is going to hell, but the homeschooling is great." For 12 years, the house continued going to hell. The homeschooling is over. The homeschooling has been over for 5 years. And I need to stop "getting the hell out of the house" (to the barn, the studio, my classroom, thrift shops, art shows, the garden, the mental escape of my latest project...) and just take the time to get the "hell" out of the house - for the people who live here and the people who want to come back. And my new cat.

[Teacher Terry]

CL: it sounds like you gained some insight today. At one point in this thread UL said people always relapse and rarely recover no matter the addiction/disorder so I did a little research and found that this is not true. my personal/professional experiences have taught me this was incorrect so I looked at some studies. For example, people that abuse alcohol are 3x's more likely to stay sober if they quit on their own versus treatment or 12 step programs, etc. People only change when the pain of staying the same is more painful then changing. Some things are harder to quit then others. For example cocaine is tougher then alcohol or pot, etc. Also people must have the cognitive ability to make that decision. So if you end up with vascular dementia from drinking too much you have damaged the part of the brain that will help you quit drinking. Also some people relapse and some don't. But for some people relapsing is a part of the process and eventually they make it. Look at how many times it takes some people to quit smoking before they finally are successful. So how bad do you want to change, do you want it or does someone else want it for you, how uncomfortable are you willing to be to achieve change, etc? It is these types of tough questions that people need to ask themselves when trying to change. Also it takes 21 straight days for something to become a habit. Announcing to the world can be helpful as it makes you fully committed to the change. If change was easy everyone would do it. It is hard but entirely within our control if we choose it. People often drop bad habits when faced with a health crisis and are afraid that it will kill them. Others keep along the same path and die younger then they should. Some addictions are worse then others. I don't think anyone probably ever died from hoarding. All these points I make are things that each person has to look deep inside of themselves and decide how is it that we want to life our lives and what are we willing to give up or not to have the life we want. Hugs:))

[ApatheticNoMore]

Yes it seemed false to me to, not like any data I had heard on addiction, that almost everyone who tries to quit an addictive substance fails. But I didn't care enough to research when random made up "facts" are just being thrown out there, as I doubted they ever had any real basis in the first place.

[Teacher Terry]

ANM: I don't work much in the summer so had plenty of time to do some research:)) I also enjoyed learning what was really happening in the field now.

[Ultralight]

A lot of it depends on how a culture defines recovery.

Is trying and trying to overcome considered recovery?

Or is having and keeping your house clutter free for 5+ years considered recovery?

If you relapse are you still recovering?

Is simply having a fire extinguisher and a path to the door considered recovery?

[nswef]

CL You made a huge amount of progress. Good for you!

[Ultralight]

I commend CL for keepin' at it! Definitely defying the odds! :)

[Teacher Terry]

so I decided to look into the stats on hoarding. The DSM-5 now recognizes it as it's own disorder instead of being a part of OCD. Studies have shown that the brain scans of people are different then people without the disorder when having to make decisions about junk mail/newspaper that they own, etc. 50% of hoarders have major depressive disorder and 48% have anxiety or social phobia. Hoarders tend to put feelings on objects such as a doll would get it's feelings hurt if no one bought it, etc. The people that have been most successful have a specific type of cognitive behavioral therapy designed for hoarders. If you just use the regular CBT the results show about 30% recovered. Small studies with the new technique show up to a 70% success rate. UL: different studies use different criteria as I am sure you are aware. No if someone is sober for a month and keeps relapsing l would not call that successful. You can research it if you are interested.

[Ultralight]

so I decided to look into the stats on hoarding. The DSM-5 now recognizes it as it's own disorder instead of being a part of OCD. Studies have shown that the brain scans of people are different then people without the disorder when having to make decisions about junk mail/newspaper that they own, etc. 50% of hoarders have major depressive disorder and 48% have anxiety or social phobia. Hoarders tend to put feelings on objects such as a doll would get it's feelings hurt if no one bought it, etc. The people that have been most successful have a specific type of cognitive behavioral therapy designed for hoarders. If you just use the regular CBT the results show about 30% recovered. Small studies with the new technique show up to a 70% success rate. UL: different studies use different criteria as I am sure you are aware. No if someone is sober for a month and keeps relapsing l would not call that successful. You can research it if you are interested.

I have researched it. Which is why I know that complete recovery is very, very, very rare for hoarders.

[Chicken lady]

Actually, people have died from hoarding - the Collyer brothers being perhaps the most famous example.

and thank you for the positive reinforcement.

[Teacher Terry]

CL: I care about people and wish you the best. Everyone has issues that they deal with. UL: you are way too negative about many issues. You act as though there is no hope for when people have problems, etc and that is just a bunch of crap. You can choose to see the world that way and it can be your reality but it is not the reality for many others.

[Lainey]

Since we've touched on the addiction aspect, I've been wondering if hypnosis would ever be successful for hoarders. I'm remembering that Jason Robards, a long-time alcoholic, finally got sober with hypnosis. I've also heard hypnosis can be helpful for gambling addicts. Apparently it's more successful if you have one behavior that needs to stop, vs. over-eating, i.e., they cannot give you the message to simply stop eating.

An idea for another reality show???;)

[Chicken lady]

I think hoarding might be more like over eating. Even Buddhist monks have robes and bowls.

[iris lilies]

CL that is interesting you made a conmectin between the hoard and your free time.

Thats what horrifies me about hoards, the sheer amount of time it takes to deal with them. Moving them around, thinking abot them, sorting through them and agonizng over stuff in them. I Would never help someone clean out a hoard, I just do not have the patience for it.

I dont like clutter, its true, but mainly I dont like the investment of my time in messing with it. I think that activity is a waste of life energy, like Joe Dominquez urges us to assess.

[Chicken lady]

The thing is - the hoard as it is now, takes up very little of my time. Shrinking it and keeping it from growing by throwing things out, recycling, donating, giving away, and putting things in their places, takes a lot of time. Cleaning around it is slower than cleaning without it, but the added cleaning time is less than the dehoarding time on a week by week basis. Perhaps there will be a tipping point for that (when the only dehoarding left is throwing away, recycling, and putting away of things used daily?).

it's like laundry - it is faster and less effort to simply wash all of your clothes in one load each week and then live out of the laundry basket than it is to sort them, launder them appropriately, and put them away neatly. But it isn't very civilized and you often look rumpled or stained. My son did this for 4 years - he had a laundry sorter with a "clean" bag and a "dirty" bag.

[Ultralight]

UL: you are way too negative about many issues. You act as though there is no hope for when people have problems, etc and that is just a bunch of crap. You can choose to see the world that way and it can be your reality but it is not the reality for many others.

I just prefer to be realistic and not mislead people with false hope.

Think about this, people who lose weight -- I mean a lot, like 50 lbs. or more -- the vast majority of them gain it all back or more. Only about 3% of these folks keep the weight off for 5+ years.

So tell me that a 97% failure rate is a reason to be hopeful.

Right now, since hoarding is comparatively new, I think it is important to note that we don't have all the data about recovery rates.

But what we do know is that complete recovery for hoarders is very, very rare.

This may change as new treatments arise. But there are lots of treatments for weight loss, but still only about 3% of folks keep the weight off.

Again, I think we need to consider what "recovery" means.

We also need to think about partial recovery and harm reduction.

So I don't want to give someone false hope. It is not that I am being negative.

[Ultralight]

I think hoarding might be more like over eating.

Bingo!

[Ultralight]

The thing is - the hoard as it is now, takes up very little of my time. Shrinking it and keeping it from growing by throwing things out, recycling, donating, giving away, and putting things in their places, takes a lot of time. Cleaning around it is slower than cleaning without it, but the added cleaning time is less than the dehoarding time on a week by week basis. Perhaps there will be a tipping point for that (when the only dehoarding left is throwing away, recycling, and putting away of things used daily?).

I wonder if this is a murkier assessment that one might think.


By this I mean, one has to work to earn money to buy the stuff that goes into a hoard. You don't work for money, but your husband does. So maybe you spend his life energy by hoarding.

Building an add-on to the house costs much time and money. But perhaps if you just had less stuff, you'd have more of that space to use and then not need the add-on.

Maybe you would not need to own so much land (that your husband had to work to pay for) if you had less animals and the same goes for that barn full of stuff.

I think acquiring, keeping, storing, cleaning, churning, organizing, ruminating over, etc. the hoard might be costing you more time, more brain power, and more life energy and resources than you'd assume.

It is a common "critique" of minimalists to say something like:

"All you do is think about your stuff all the time and how you can have the absolute minimal amount of it!"

Then this often smug type of person says:
"I have lots and lots of stuff, but I don't think about it. It doesn't take up much of my time at all. I don't focus on it."

But I think if you took a group of 100 minimalists and 100 hoarders and did a time usage audit on them you'd find that the minimalists spend very little time dealing with their stuff (which is why we become minimalists in the first place!) whereas stuff is what a hoarder's life is all about and they'd be spending massive amounts of time dealing with the hoard.

[Chicken lady]

Oh, I'm spending massive amounts of time dealing with the hoard. Today the mail came, and I handed it out to the correct people. Then I opened my mail and saved 5 coupons for things we use (which took less than 5 minutes, so even when you add on the extra time to use each coupon, I'll be 'making' above minimum wage on the groceries, and the paint one is huge - this is one of the places where my time becomes "income" for us.)

then, and this is where the hoard part comes in, I spent two hours churning through all the papers finding every single coupon and putting the expired ones in the recycling and the good ones in a folder( and recycling some other stuff). So there - the dehoarding - is where it takes time. Otherwise it takes seconds to toss the unopened coupons into the hoard, seconds to grab the flier before I leave for the store, if I can still see it, and seconds to push the box back and forth with my foot when I sweep. Or I don't take the coupons - lost savings opportunity, no time investment.

And honestly, there would be the LEAST time investment if my kid just tossed the whole box of papers after I die. If I left behind 30 boxes of papers, it would still be Least time per paper, it's just that it would be all in a row and not my time.

(optimum time use - put recycling bin next yo mailbox and toss all mail in directly. Do not look at mail.)

if you vacuum every day, your house is cleaner than if you vacuum once a week - but the vacuuming isn't 7x faster if the carpet only has 1/7 of the dirt.

at one point, btw, I had more than 30 boxes of random paper. Now I have 1. In between getting "paid" for time spent handling paper and spending virtually no time handling paper, there is a lot of "wasted" time. But it is the same sort of wasted time as swimming laps is pool to lose weight. Yes, clearly it would be better to eat less. Assuming that works with the swimmer's metabolism. Which it may not.

also, most of the stuff in the hoard was "free" or super cheap. The feeling that I was not contributing financially and didn't WANT to be spending money unnecessarily was part of what contributed to me collecting giant piles of stuff the kids or I might need. I still have two shoeboxes of pencils that are slowly being used to refill the supply in my classroom as kids walk off with them. I have never bought a pencil. If you spend $7 on a big bag of clothes at a thrift sale (which is a fun activity, so no more life cost there than fishing) and your kid wears three things that would have cost $5 or more when they were needed, you have just cut clothing expenses in half!

btw, I do work for money now. Far fewer hours for the same poverty level total I made when I supported dh financially for the first 4.5 years we were married. - my investment in his degree seems to have paid off a lot better than your investment in yours.

and please read the original elephant thread and reach an understanding of the reasons for the addition before commenting on them. You don't have to agree with them, they just have nothing to do with the quantity of stuff in the house. If the house were literally empty, the rooms would still be too small and badly located.

i need the land to keep the people far away. The animals turn mowing (dh time) into barn chores (my time)

if if you did a time audit of hoarders and minimalists, you would see that we both spend way to much time on this website, but no one is under the impression that they are paying me to do something else.

[Ultralight]

Oh, I'm spending massive amounts of time dealing with the hoard. Today the mail came, and I handed it out to the correct people. Then I opened my mail and saved 5 coupons for things we use (which took less than 5 minutes, so even when you add on the extra time to use each coupon, I'll be 'making' above minimum wage on the groceries, and the paint one is huge - this is one of the places where my time becomes "income" for us.)

Are you unhappy about spending massive amounts of time trying to dehoard and/or churning?


then, and this is where the hoard part comes in, I spent two hours churning through all the papers finding every single coupon and putting the expired ones in the recycling and the good ones in a folder( and recycling some other stuff). So there - the dehoarding - is where it takes time. Otherwise it takes seconds to toss the unopened coupons into the hoard, seconds to grab the flier before I leave for the store, if I can still see it, and seconds to push the box back and forth with my foot when I sweep. Or I don't take the coupons - lost savings opportunity, no time investment.

I'd just not use coupons and toss them all.



And honestly, there would be the LEAST time investment if my kid just tossed the whole box of papers after I die. If I left behind 30 boxes of papers, it would still be Least time per paper, it's just that it would be all in a row and not my time.

It seems like you feel as though your are dehoarding for everyone else, but not really for you. How true is this?


(optimum time use - put recycling bin next yo mailbox and toss all mail in directly. Do not look at mail.)

Not bad!


if you vacuum every day, your house is cleaner than if you vacuum once a week - but the vacuuming isn't 7x faster if the carpet only has 1/7 of the dirt.

Not sure what you are getting at.


at one point, btw, I had more than 30 boxes of random paper. Now I have 1. In between getting "paid" for time spent handling paper and spending virtually no time handling paper, there is a lot of "wasted" time. But it is the same sort of wasted time as swimming laps is pool to lose weight. Yes, clearly it would be better to eat less. Assuming that works with the swimmer's metabolism. Which it may not.

Confused here, but congrats on fewer boxes!


also, most of the stuff in the hoard was "free" or super cheap. The feeling that I was not contributing financially and didn't WANT to be spending money unnecessarily was part of what contributed to me collecting giant piles of stuff the kids or I might need. I still have two shoeboxes of pencils that are slowly being used to refill the supply in my classroom as kids walk off with them. I have never bought a pencil. If you spend $7 on a big bag of clothes at a thrift sale (which is a fun activity, so no more life cost there than fishing) and your kid wears three things that would have cost $5 or more when they were needed, you have just cut clothing expenses in half!

How often to you buy stuff?


btw, I do work for money now. Far fewer hours for the same poverty level total I made when I supported dh financially for the first 4.5 years we were married. - my investment in his degree seems to have paid off a lot better than your investment in yours.

Probably! My degrees are almost worthless! lol


and please read the original elephant thread and reach an understanding of the reasons for the addition before commenting on them. You don't have to agree with them, they just have nothing to do with the quantity of stuff in the house. If the house were literally empty, the rooms would still be too small and badly located.

I might...


i need the land to keep the people far away. The animals turn mowing (dh time) into barn chores (my time)

I dunno about this...


if if you did a time audit of hoarders and minimalists, you would see that we both spend way to much time on this website, but no one is under the impression that they are paying me to do something else.

Most of the time I am on here I am at work. I am not on here on the weekends!

[Teacher Terry]

UL: so in looking at studies on weight loss it states that the common folk lore since the 1950's is that only 5% of people keep the weight off for a year. Of course just like people that abuse alcohol people that overeat tend to lose weight themselves and don't use a formal program so stats are hard to get. Some studies have sent out surveys to people to ask about this and what they discovered is that many more people not in official studies have maintained weight loss, etc. Unfortunately you are a pessimistic doom and gloom person, people are their addictions, they never change, etc. Spending my life working with people professionally has taught me that this is absolutely not true for the majority. It is certainly true for some people. I have seen people overcome horrific things and not be bitter. You tell people that their is no hope-which is not true. My hope is that people in need of help seek out strong, positive people, professional help if they need it or use their inner motivation/strength to help themselves. Over and over again I have seen people be successful at beating all types of addictions and leading rewarding lives. Other people choose to be victims, hate their jobs, etc. that is their choice.

[Ultralight]

UL: so in looking at studies on weight loss it states that the common folk lore since the 1950's is that only 5% of people keep the weight off for a year. Of course just like people that abuse alcohol people that overeat tend to lose weight themselves and don't use a formal program so stats are hard to get. Some studies have sent out surveys to people to ask about this and what they discovered is that many more people not in official studies have maintained weight loss, etc. Unfortunately you are a pessimistic doom and gloom person, people are their addictions, they never change, etc. Spending my life working with people professionally has taught me that this is absolutely not true for the majority. It is certainly true for some people. I have seen people overcome horrific things and not be bitter. You tell people that their is no hope-which is not true. My hope is that people in need of help seek out strong, positive people, professional help if they need it or use their inner motivation/strength to help themselves. Over and over again I have seen people be successful at beating all types of addictions and leading rewarding lives. Other people choose to be victims, hate their jobs, etc. that is their choice.

I am not saying there is no hope! hahaha

I am saying there is not much hope.

Big difference!

[Teacher Terry]

UL: it is not true that there is not much hope-that is totally wrong!!! But I am done discussing this with you because not only do I read the studies but I have seen professionally first hand the change that people make on a permanent basis. However, I will never change your mind and that is fine. I just hope that no one that needs help listens to you because it will be an excuse for people to continue with their addictions. I don't think you are a bad person but I do think your upbringing has turned you into a negative, pessimistic person. So we will have to agree to disagree:))

[Ultralight]

UL: it is not true that there is not much hope-that is totally wrong!!! But I am done discussing this with you because not only do I read the studies but I have seen professionally first hand the change that people make on a permanent basis. However, I will never change your mind and that is fine. I just hope that no one that needs help listens to you because it will be an excuse for people to continue with their addictions. I don't think you are a bad person but I do think your upbringing has turned you into a negative, pessimistic person. So we will have to agree to disagree:))

If this social work thing works out then I might be an addictions counselor, which will be easy because I will just tell everyone there is no hope of them getting clean!

[ApatheticNoMore]

UL: so in looking at studies on weight loss it states that the common folk lore since the 1950's is that only 5% of people keep the weight off for a year. Of course just like people that abuse alcohol people that overeat tend to lose weight themselves and don't use a formal program so stats are hard to get. Some studies have sent out surveys to people to ask about this and what they discovered is that many more people not in official studies have maintained weight loss, etc.

yea the studies on weight loss may be less optimistic, hunger is the most basic drive (or maybe thirst). But the addiction thing from substances was just what seemed totally off to me, and I have some familiarity with it (no not because I'm an addict of course, but I have exposure). And so of course it was.


My hope is that people in need of help seek out strong, positive people, professional help if they need it or use their inner motivation/strength to help themselves.

I don't discourage anyone from doing it, they could have better luck than me and so shrug, but personally no I don't recommend professional help, professional help is mostly a waste of time and money and has a lot of negatives built right into it (like power imbalance - people might be better off with peer support - I mean the power imbalance is seriously negative when you get down to it). I would recommend both self-help and peer support (even support groups) over professional help.

[Chicken lady]

How do you do that chopping a post into little quote boxes thing?

[QUOTE=UltraliteAngler;248659]Are you unhappy about spending massive amounts of time trying to dehoard and/or churning?


Yes.


I'd just not use coupons and toss them all.



But we've established I still have time available to sell. The coupons meet my pay requirements.


It seems like you feel as though your are dehoarding for everyone else, but not really for you. How true is this?


Probably, 10% me, 90% everyone else (including my desire for positive feedback in this section)

Not bad!

But then you los any mail you actually wanted. In which case, why not just get rid of the mailbox?


Not sure what your getting at


Keeping up up with the papers is like vacuuming every day - not really worth the return compared to letting them pile in and then sorting them, say, when I'm stuck on the phone with dh mom.



How often to you buy stuff?

as rarely as possible - basically the only non consumable things I buy for myself that I don't need are the dolls and maybe every month or two a trip to the thrift store for clothes, books, studio toys and household stuff - usually under $10 total unless I buy a furniture for a specific purpose. My last thrift store trip was in early June and I bought stuff for Dd's wedding flowers and I think a cookie mold I probably have too many of. I also bought - retail - a dress and a bra for the wedding. That would be an example of something I needed.




Most of the time I am on here I am at work. I am not on here on the weekends!

that was my point.

[Ultralight]

How do you do that chopping a post into little quote boxes thing?

I copy and paste the opening quote code and the ending quote code so that it is in front of and behind, respectively, each part I want to separate into snippets.

[Teacher Terry]

ANM: yes as I stated earlier the studies show that 3x's as many people quit alcohol on their own then do in programs. But then again I know people who tried repeatedly on their own and only quit with either professional help or a 12 step program. Some places also have sober houses where people can live as long as they want. They rent a room, follow the house rules. Some people with addictions are lonely and their friends are all users so this has greatly helped people rebuild a new life. Everyone is different. UL: sorry but SW is not the right occupation for you. It needs people that are optimistic about others and their ability to change, emphatic, not negative, etc. Clients already have had enough negativity in their lives by the time they see a SW and what they need is encouragement, etc. Hope you are kidding about the addictions counseling.

[Ultralight]

About paper, here is what I do. Maybe this is an idea that could be useful in some context.

I get my mail. The junk mail gets tossed on my way back to my apartment building. My mailbox is outside. There is a dumpster on the way.

The mail with sensitive info goes into a very small box to be shred when it is full. The bills get put on the table, then paid, then put in the shred box.

I only have to shred like once a year.

[Chicken lady]

I'll try that next time.

in July so far, I bought a box of reusable canning jar lids - which are in use, a doll, and a drink that came in a souvenier cup - which I kept. I also bought a class, food, animal feed, a goat, and gasoline.

[Ultralight]

AUL: sorry but SW is not the right occupation for you. It needs people that are optimistic about others and their ability to change, emphatic, not negative, etc. Clients already have had enough negativity in their lives by the time they see a SW and what they need is encouragement, etc. Hope you are kidding about the addictions counseling.

I am kidding. I want to work for the government, city or county, in a capacity that I can kick hoarders out of their homes and condemn the houses.

[Chicken lady]

This is what I do with the mail - if I get it out of the box I toss the obvious junk mail into the recycling on the way into the house (if someone else gets it, the recycling has to be carried back out)

dh mail (I'm pretty sure if we have any sensitive info it's in here) including bills goes upstairs on his desk. There are also locations for the mail of other people in the household who may or may not pick it up promptly.

my mail either gets read and either recycled or set aside for later or just set aside for later. Usually on the kitchen table or counter near the phone. Then somebody needs to eat or cook or read blueprints, or knocks it to the floor with the phone cord and swears, and it goes into my "in box".

[Chicken lady]

Honestly UL, you would be great at that. I have a friend in zoning enforcement, and he hates his job.

you should probably be aware that at some point you will be shot at.

[Ultralight]

Honestly UL, you would be great at that. I have a friend in zoning enforcement, and he hates his job.

you should probably be aware that at some point you will be shot at.

Shot at?

[Chicken lady]

This is southern Ohio. If you tell enough people they have to leave their house (move their rusty dead car, get rid of their 27 dogs....) at least one of them is going to shoot at you.

or were you going to move?

[Ultralight]

This is southern Ohio. If you tell enough people they have to leave their house (move their rusty dead car, get rid of their 27 dogs....) at least one of them is going to shoot at you.

or were you going to move?

I live in Columbus. We're a more dignified people here.

[sweetana3]

Southern Indiana has that reputation also. Of course, there are neighborhoods in Indianapolis that are really no go. Most everyone knows where they are.

[Teacher Terry]

do you have to be a SW to be a code enforcer?

[Chicken lady]

Not in the no mans land between Cincinnati and Columbus - but you do get shot at here....

[Ultralight]

do you have to be a SW to be a code enforcer?

No, but it would be good to expand the usefulness of social workers.

[Ultralight]

Not in the no mans land between Cincinnati and Columbus - but you do get shot at here....

I am not going to kick people out of their dang homes. haha

I was just being a jerk.

[Chicken lady]

I think social workers have enough to do. My sil used to be one. I think they would be more useful if they had more resources.

[freshstart]

I take what Teacher Terry says to heart. Your last paragraph really shows your insight into how you got into this mess and show's a real desire to get out of it. And job well done today.

[freshstart]

I ventured down to the basement today and it was even worse. It's so dark and depressing, I just can't get motivated to tackle it. But there are things of mine I want so I am going to have to at least partially face the mess. I have one disorganized corner of my room left to organize and then things are more or less set up here and I have no more excuses. Well, except for cleaning out DD's room. She left behind tons of clothes to consign and lots of make-up, perfume and jewelry I actually like. So she has a few days to come claim what she wants and then I'm going in.

[Chicken lady]

Freshstart's, how is the basement worse? You said your mom can't go down there. Is anyone adding items to the basement? Also, who gets the money from the consigning?

[freshstart]

if DD comes over and helps get the consignment stuff ready, she can have the money. If she leaves her whole room up to me, she's not getting it. So I would think this would motivate her.

the cleaning lady gets sent down to find stuff for my mom and she doesn't stack the boxes back up neatly. instead they are in the narrow (very narrow) walk ways. Then the basement goes around a corner and I never really looked in there, Omg what a mess. I think it's mostly my 43 yr old married brother's old stuff. If I were my parents, I would give a date that that stuff has to be out of here. It looks like junk.

[Ultralight]

Keep all the money!

[Chicken lady]

Yeah, I would say if she does all the work, sh gets the money. If you do the work, you get the money. Then decide if it's worth the money. Maybe you'd rather ignore it and start finding your stuff in the basement?

[Teacher Terry]

FS: once your Mom is gone do you think your Dad will be open to cleaning up the basement? If so then maybe you can enlist someone to help you since you can't physically do it. I would be careful down there so you don't hurt yourself.

[freshstart]

my dad borders on hoarding but I think if she was gone he would give the ok to clean it out

I want to focus on DD's room because i need to sell a piece of her BR set to fit the treadmill in there. So I have to at least empty that out. The treadmill is in the dark recesses of the basement and I will never use it down there.

[Teacher Terry]

That makes sense. Why not sell it as a set unless you or her need some of the pieces.

[freshstart]

the room is used as a guest room, one dresser holds a tv and the other dresser makes the room look furnished. Eventually, when her clothes are gone, I will use the pieces for storage.

[Ultralight]

This is a particularly interesting article about the difficulty of recovery.

Hoarding negatively affects all aspects of lifehttp://www.tctimes.com/living/hoarding-negatively-affects-all-aspects-of-life/article_0e34a9b8-5a7d-11e6-bd81-63b190a7f528.html

"He held a perpetual yard sale in his yard, for which he was regularly in trouble with the township. His yard sale was far from organized. There were several stacks of “stuff” piled 3 to 4 feet high in most cases. Other items were spread across the grass."

"Lynn lived in the small travel trailer — at least that’s where he slept and kept out of the rain. The house itself was packed so full, every room, top to bottom, that there was no pathway through any door."

Apparently the township stepped in and cleaned the place for $25,000.

When dude passed away his son was able to sell it for $50,000.

[Chicken lady]

Actually, the article doesn't have anything at all to do with the difficulty of recovery. There is no indication in the article that the man ever had or sought treatment or assistance or that recovery was ever something he was interested in.

i wouldn't say my grandfather had difficulty recovering from alchoholism, I'd say he made a deliberate decision to drink himself to death. And he did a damn good job of it.

[Chicken lady]

Yesterday when I was working in the studio, I confronted the styrofoam pile.

this is a large pile of styrofoam packaging pieces that protected our windows and dh new tools in their shipping boxes. There used to be a place an hour from here that would recycle them, but it closed.

the idea of throwing them in the landfill makes me feel shaky and sick, but where else are they going to go? I can't keep them indefinitely hoping for recycling services, it's a big pile. And Sandy, I hope you don't take this badly, but I thought about you and how your need for a consignment shop is blocking you from cleaning out your closet. Continuing to search may be the best option for you, but it wouldn't be for me in your place, and perhaps you wouldn't give the styrofoam a second thought....

i took a ok a deep breath and I filled three trash cans with styrofoam (I had to break up some of the pieces to get them in, which was messy and made me angry) and took them up to the curb. I wish I could have taken it all and gotten it over with, but one trash can was full of trash, and dh is using two others to store small, potentially usable pieces of aluminum flashing and siding until we finish this job (then the flashing can gets recycled and the siding can gets burned)

i was was worn out and emotionally exhausted last night, and when I tried to explain to dh why my day was so hard, I cried. He was baffled but sympathetic. Instead of saying something like "it's just styrofoam!" Which he might have before, he gave me a hug and said "I'm really sorry that styrofoam is so hard for you."

[nswef]

Cl, I see your frustration. We've never had a place for styrofoam so I always put it in the trash but keep thinking there must be someone who would LOVE these huge big pieces of sturdy stuff for something. Glad your husband is seeing you now.

[freshstart]

more progress. I'm glad your husband supported you

[catherine]

I HATE styrofoam.. In addition to my environmental concerns about it, for some reason I'm really, really sensitive to the sound of it squeaking. I will not permit DH to buy styrofoam coolers or eggs in styrofoam cartons, and if something we buy comes packed in molded styrofoam, I cover my ears or leave the room while DH gets the thing out of the box. I could never have done what you did in terms of breaking up pieces!!

And there IS no better way to dispose of it, so I think it's great you got it out of your house. There are bans on it in some places. I don't know what on earth it could be recycled for. It's evil!! Be glad you've rid yourself of that cursed material!!

I am also happy your husband was supportive. You've done good!

[iris lilies]

Well, recycling styrofoam--my garden club lady friends make floral designs with styrofoam towers. The trick with styrofoam is that it melts with regular spray paint, so you've got to get special paint.

But even then these are one time uses and then the styrofoam goes into to the garbage.

[19Sandy]

No one will pay me for pieces of styrofoam but they will pay money for perfectly good clothes.

If it is worthless and has no memories, it won't bother me to get rid of it.

We don't have any recycling centers here so everything is dumped in the trash.

My closets aren't packed tight either and less so since the massive purge.

Clothing in good condition (even if it doesn't fit) is the only thing that I hang onto.

My weight goes up and down and I have pulled things out of a box 3 years later to wear it.

I buy classic stuff so it doesn't go out of style

If I do move, I wouldn't want to move all of the clothing though.

My furniture is mostly worthless so it isn't worth moving that either.

The clothing thing is probably from childhood when I had one outfit to wear everyday to school and was bullied for it.

Those skinny clothes are in inspiration to lose weight too.

My home is looking really bare and when the time comes, I can live in a smaller place too - just haven't found an affordable place yet.

[Teacher Terry]

I donate my clothing to thrift stores. It is not worth the time/$ to take to a consignment shop.

[Chicken lady]

Sandy, I do get the clothing, it's a ymmv issue. When I was making $6 an hour and not paying taxes because I didn't work enough - I took clothes to a consignment shop. Since most of my clothes were hand me down or cheap yard sale, I could often make several dollars on an item, and it made a big difference in my budget. Now, given a choice between (random numbers) making an appointment, driving to the shop, waiting around, taking back the refused items, coming back for my check and making $20, vs donating the whole lot and saving $8 on my taxes, it's not worth the $12 difference. For the same reason I am going to stop taking cans to the recycling center after the next load and just put them in curbside. (The next load will probably be when dh is ready for me to take the can of aluminum flashing pieces.)

if you have very nice clothes or a budget where $12 is a big deal, you choose the consignment shop.

also, I am not one to be critical of anyone saving a non hazardous anything they have room for (moldy, broken and sharp, rusty, flammable, etc I might argue with.)

the parallel was that someone, somewhere, would probably like to buy the clothes, but you can't find an accessible venue to make that happen right now. And someone, somewhere is recycling styrofoam, but how long a I wiling to wait/how much time and effort am I willing to expend to find them?

[Teacher Terry]

I tried unsuccessfully to find a place to recycle the Styrofoam too. It feels bad to throw it away but in the end we did. For me selling or donating also depends on my mood. Sometimes I sell and sometimes I just put it in the front yard with a free sign on it. I usually give it away if I want it gone fast. When we remodeled our home we gave away all the fixtures in the bathrooms, 3 rooms of pergo, doors, etc. It went within hours. The previous owners put pergo over hardwood floors so we removed it carefully so someone else could use it. The floors were in beautiful shape and we just had to sand and seal. No clue why they put pergo over them.

[Geila]

This is one reason I dislike Amazon and online shopping in general. So much packaging! The other is the fact that if I shop locally I support local businesses who provide local jobs. The trade-off is that I usually end up paying slightly more than if I bought on Amazon. But we need local jobs, so I do my part. As a teen, part-time jobs were easy to come by and I want to support businesses who provide them now. This is also why I like supporting Costco. I don't mind paying a membership fee if I think of it in terms of providing good benefits and working conditions for the employees who work there and live in my community. Costco closes their stores and gas stations on most holidays so their employees can have the day off. That's pretty cool.

Sorry for the tangent! :)

[iris lilies]

?.. The previous owners put pergo over hardwood floors so we removed it carefully so someone else could use it. The floors were in beautiful shape and we just had to sand and seal. No clue why they put pergo over them.
Because people are basically stupid?

In my neighborhood it was common to cover the pine floors with linoleum about 1930-- and carpet after that, about 1960--

So that meant that these soft pine floors really only were used bare for about 50 years. All of the junk on top of them helped to preserve them. Then in the 1980's, 100 years after the floors went in, people pulled up the junk and had nice wood floors although many people have covered the old pine with hard oak.

Our houses had custom shutters and many homeowners here tell about prying the old shutters out of their custom made cubbies inside the wall where they had been folded up , hiding for 60-80 years. In the 1920's pull down blinds were popular, so people put away their shutters. same with pocket doors, many houses had the pocket doors pushed into the wall cavity and painted over, so decades later restorationists found them.

[Teacher Terry]

I have restored 4 old houses through the years. I love all the original stuff. Our floors are oak. The hallway had a big hole where the old grates must have went. Now the house is heated by electricity. So DH stole wood from the bedroom closets to patch it and even though we know where the hole was you can't tell he did such a good job. This house had new cupboards when we bought it so no clue what was here although if they were metal we would have replaced them. When our friends saw this house they all thought it was a dump and horrible (which it was). We did not move in it for 4 months. I hired DH a full time helper and they restored the whole house. People who saw the before were shocked at the after. They thought we had made a big mistake. This house had an addition in the back end which is a dining room and master bedroom. That was built in 1970 so no hardwood so we did pergo that. However the DR was huge-more like a dining hall so used that extra room to make a master bath. The houses in our neighborhood have been selling like hotcakes and it is so nice to see people fixing them up. I think people are tired of being in the burbs and like being in town.

[19Sandy]

What is ymmv?

[Chicken lady]

Your mileage may vary - I understand that our experiences of things can be completely different and equally valid.

teacher terry and I for example, have many ironic parallels in our lives - when we bought this house it was pretty much a tear down. Since we couldn't afford to tear it down, we lived in the barn from February until August while making it habitable. - but we often don't respond to our experiences the same way.

[19Sandy]

That is true - two people see a crime scene in a different way or two siblings react differently to trauma.

For instance, Marie Kondo says to go through clothes first - but for me it will be last!

Actually, I bought a few new clothing items because my fall stuff that fits was tattered - okay for lounging at home but not for dressier reasons. That will make it easier to purge stuff.

And I still have plenty of time to find a consignment shop.

I heard that a new one might be opening in Oct., so I will wait to find out.

I have tossed hundreds of videos, books and other stuff but clothes are harder for me to part with.

I am about 8 pounds from fitting in some of those things too.

[Teacher Terry]

CL: you and I are very different. I think we both had our 3 kids young. similar professions, huge love for animals, etc. I never was a hoarder but I did have lots of nick-naks and collections. We got our house very cheap -60K because it needed so much work but it was not a tear down. We have now put 70 into it and it is worth 270k. Since my DH is both a civil engineer and very handy we knew what we were getting into. Actually this house had 6 offers on it. The bank wanted it gone so gave everyone 24 hours to make their best cash offer with no conditions, inspections, etc. They lowered the price to 52k after a year of trying to sell it. WE bid 60 because I was sure that others would not go over the psychological barrier of the 50's and was right. The older I get the less I want to have a bunch of crap to clean and the more I am liking having less. I will never be a minimalist because I find that sterile and not homey. I also desire more free time so try to eliminate having too many chores. It was one of the reasons we down sized to a smaller house. I love to vacation and I love to have people over. But I have also down sized the size of my parties. I used to host 30 people for a sit down dinner. Now it is never more then 8. I don't know if everyone changes as they get older but at 62 I am looking for less of everything in my life except vacations:))

[catherine]

Because people are basically stupid?

In my neighborhood it was common to cover the pine floors with linoleum about 1930-- and carpet after that, about 1960--

So that meant that these soft pine floors really only were used bare for about 50 years. All of the junk on top of them helped to preserve them. Then in the 1980's, 100 years after the floors went in, people pulled up the junk and had nice wood floors although many people have covered the old pine with hard oak.

Our houses had custom shutters and many homeowners here tell about prying the old shutters out of their custom made cubbies inside the wall where they had been folded up , hiding for 60-80 years. In the 1920's pull down blinds were popular, so people put away their shutters. same with pocket doors, many houses had the pocket doors pushed into the wall cavity and painted over, so decades later restorationists found them.

my MIL bought her house in the early 50s. It had a built-in china cabinet that she walled over. (??) She had french doors and a Dutch door that she had removed (??). Judging by the front porch (which she had enclosed) and the moulding throughout (which she whitewashed) t looks like it could have originally been Craftsman but you could never tell now.

I think it's normal for the next generation to want to put their stamp on their homes. Then another generation goes by and "everything old is new again." I thought for sure that when I got rid of our 70s kitchen a couple of years ago it was going to all of a sudden be showing up in Architectural Digest as the latest trend. Thank God it hasn't.

As for the flooring--we took up our avocado shag carpeting in the living room and up the stairs and in the bedrooms and there was oak hardwood underneath. Can you imagine? In the 70s, hardwood was standard, and then people would opt to put wall-to-wall carpeting OVER it. I admit that we recently used a Pergo floating floor to cover up our 70s vinyl tiles in the foyer and family room and it's a huge improvement. Some people will say tacky, but I say better than those old worn tiles. I do like the fact that the floating floors are so easy to remove, so the next people that own the house will no doubt do what you did, Teacher Terry.

[Chicken lady]

OH, I agree that we are very different, that was also the point, and yet, one could very easily write a short life summary that could apply to either of us.

and we also knew what we were getting into, and also had the skills to do the work - although my handy engineer is mechanical, not civil.

[19Sandy]

Well, I cleaned out my car at least today.

Local store had a buy 5 get 10 free sale on canned goods this week so I am stocked up for the winter with soup, veg, fruit, spaggetti sauce, tuna and canned chicken.

They also had a lot of other stuff on sale so my fridge is full too.

With fresh stuff, I won't need to buy anything like that for several months.

Anyway, I had bags of those in my car to haul in from a long way off.

I really need one of those wheely carts but I don't usually buy much.

I sort of look like a food hoarder now but none of it will expire for a year or more.

I got a lot more for my money this way.

[Teacher Terry]

CL: engineers are awesome:)) You will be so happy with your house once you get the work done.

[JaneV2.0]

I like this version of the wheely cart: https://smile.amazon.com/Folding-Shopping-Cart-Versacart-Water-Resistant/dp/B000LPFUG8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474828513&sr=8-1&keywords=versacart

I've had it for some time; it's sturdy and gets the job done--with a little maneuvering, I can even get it up and down the front steps.

[Chicken lady]

This morning there were three trash cans at the curb - household trash, the rest of the styrofoam, and small construction waste. I did not do things like pull the nails out of the small pieces of scrap wood and seperate the results into burnables and recyclable.

I put out a very broken wooden tea cart that I did not attempt to salvage or repair in any way - even by dismantling for the burn pile.

i did add to my household yesterday - a set of dolls that came in the mail, a replacement part to my ice cream maker that came in the mail, a new swim suit, two replacement wine glasses, and a rack for rolling pins and dowels in my studio (which I already set up and filled). I found a few things I could throw away while I was setting up the rack.

[Ultralight]

I thought this was a worthwhile article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/09/hoarding-in-the-time-of-marie-kondo/502085/

"When you’re a hoarder, everything 'sparks joy'.”

[Chicken lady]

Yes. Also the visual/spatial organizing. DON'T MOVE MY PILES!

[Chicken lady]

Some insight into how hard and slow this process is - there is another board I belong to that was made up of parents, mostly moms, many at home. It is deleting next week, so I was looking back over some posts. There was a forum about housework/cleaning, etc.

I first started to work seriously on the hoard (as in, making chunks of progress that did not go away in a week or two) in June of 2010. Interestingly, in opposition to the favored pattern, the dehoarding was actually triggered by a period of trauma and loss.

[Ultralight]

Some insight into how hard and slow this process is - there is another board I belong to that was made up of parents, mostly moms, many at home. It is deleting next week, so I was looking back over some posts. There was a forum about housework/cleaning, etc.

I first started to work seriously on the hoard (as in, making chunks of progress that did not go away in a week or two) in June of 2010. Interestingly, in opposition to the favored pattern, the dehoarding was actually triggered by a period of trauma and loss.

Go on...

[Chicken lady]

That was really all you get, sorry, just the clinical overview. I wasn't trying to be cryptic. Stuff happens, people die, life goes on...

[Tybee]

Very true, CL! I have found the best time for me to discard is when I am angry-- something about dismantling the life I have built at those times is quite satisfying.

[19Sandy]

That was really all you get, sorry, just the clinical overview. I wasn't trying to be cryptic. Stuff happens, people die, life goes on...


When I am angry, I tend to start vacuuming or mopping or dusting. It is a healthy way to get rid of anger.

[19Sandy]

Today's hoarders show on TLC was a really dirty house. Fecal matter and garbage everywhere.

[Ultralight]

Today's hoarders show on TLC was a really dirty house. Fecal matter and garbage everywhere.

Shocker!

[19Sandy]

It was the second house that they had hoarded until it was destroyed. Of course, they were able to Buy! a house afterwards.

[frugalone]

Someone on another forum told me that hoarders never change, or rarely, even with therapy and medication. That made me feel both sad and angry, and you know? I don't believe it. I think people can change. I don't ever like to think any situation is hopeless.

[Teacher Terry]

So I decided to look up the latest stats since in the past very few recovered. Meds still don't generally work well and it said that with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy about 30-40% of hoarders were helped to varying degrees. I know that part of the problem is that a good CBT therapist can be hard to find in certain parts of the country. Of course there is also the cost and it won't be a quick fix. Some of the latest studies are also showing that their brain scans are different when asked to bring in all their mail for a week and then sort while they are being scanned on what they will keep and throw away. Also the article pointed out that if someone was an alcoholic and you threw away all their booze and left their house nothing would have changed. So while you can clean the house if no treatment is pursued or it fails then they will resume their hoarding. It is also linked to brain injuries, depression, suffering a terrible event in your life, obesity, etc. It really is very sad.

[freshstart]

I agree it is very sad and that it is very hard to treat. It divides families. I'm glad when it is true hoarding, there is now a psychiatric diagnosis applied to it so insurance may cover the meds and therapy. I couldn't find a CB therapist that would come to the house around here. Which kind of makes hoarding therapy pointless.

[Ultralight]

Someone on another forum told me that hoarders never change, or rarely, even with therapy and medication. That made me feel both sad and angry, and you know? I don't believe it. I think people can change. I don't ever like to think any situation is hopeless.

At this point it is really, really hopeless. I know that sounds bad but that is what the research shows.

They are working on some medications that they think might help, but even that has been really slow-going and had many setbacks.

[Ultralight]

...it said that with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy about 30-40% of hoarders were helped to varying degrees.

The above quote can be misleading. It is not like these folks have clean houses even after CBT has "helped."

It might mean they have a goat trail to the back door for emergencies or they have working smoke alarms.

[Teacher Terry]

Yes you are absolutely right. It really sounds like a very small percentage ever have neat/clean homes.

[Ultralight]

In my research methods class one of my classmates is doing a research project on hoarding, so she is really getting into the research. A group of us in the same class, including her, are also working on another hoarding-related class project.

She was telling me that her grandparents have it, her mother-in-law has it, and her little brother has it. I told her about my grandma and my mom and dad.
We shared a few horror stories.

Then another person in the group said she worked at a group home and had clients with hoarding disorder. Then yet another person in the group said her grandpa had it and she was incredibly embarrassed over it.


Anyway, this girl studying hoarding who has the grandparents, in-laws, and brother with it... she and I immediately bonded. She gave me this look... I will probably never forget it. It was as though she wanted to hug me for mutual support.

I then told her how my sis and BIL just had a baby last month and that my sis won't allow the baby to visit my mom and dad's house.

She got really quiet and said: "Jake, I am pregnant. And I will not let my baby ever go to their hoards."

Hoarding is just so damaging to families.

[freshstart]

well, I'm gonna hug you, UA. ((Ultralite Angler)) Congrats on becoming an uncle!

[Ultralight]

well, I'm gonna hug you, UA. ((Ultralite Angler)) Congrats on becoming an uncle!

Thanks. :)

[Chicken lady]

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1642&stc=1

Some some of us can hear you.

that's an after picture of the impenatrable closet under the stairs, btw.

[Tybee]

I need to get my eyes checked. I thought the vacuum was a cocker spaniel.

[frugalone]

It does look like a cocker spaniel.

[Chicken lady]

Oh great. Now I can't Unsee that. The shop vac has been r2d2 for years. Now the vacuum cleaner is going to get named rover or something.

[freshstart]

that is the biggest under stair closet I've ever seen, what great storage. Good job emptying it out!

[Chicken lady]

Thanks.

i still don't really understand the point of wasting so much storage space by leaving it empty, but it makes dh very happy.

i think the thing about recovering from hoarding is that no matter what approach you use, you have to want to get better - more than you want all the things that make you hoard. And it's still hard, and sometimes, you just want to get/Keep stuff.

i'm dieting now too - the pain in my knees moved to my hip, and finally losing weight was more important than cookies. But now I'm down to the last 5 lbs, and it's a lot harder because I don't hurt anymore, so today I ate a huge piece of cake.

the hoarding is like that too.

[Ultralight]

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1642&stc=1

Some some of us can hear you.

that's an after picture of the impenatrable closet under the stairs, btw.

Triggered!!!! Ahhhhhh!

[Ultralight]

i'm dieting now too - the pain in my knees moved to my hip, and finally losing weight was more important than cookies. But now I'm down to the last 5 lbs, and it's a lot harder because I don't hurt anymore, so today I ate a huge piece of cake.

the hoarding is like that too.

Amen, sistah!

[iris lilies]

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1642&stc=1

Some some of us can hear you.

that's an after picture of the impenatrable closet under the stairs, btw.
Shazaam! That is one big storage area.

[Chicken lady]

The basement is ten feet deep. The stairs are a straight run, and the closet is all the space under the stairs. Basically, it's a Ny apartment or one of those tiny houses. :laff:

UA, I assume you're kidding about the triggering, but really, what do you think about that space?