Recovering hoarders?

[Ultralight]

Are there any recovering hoarders who might want to share their story? Any hoarders who have conquered the disorder?

Words of wisdom are much appreciated. My parents are both hoarders and could easily be on one of those shows. :(

[Chicken lady]

Ok, um, I'm not sure where to start, I wrote some in the other thread, but mostly I think you have to accept that it is a mental illness kind of like alcoholism and you can't makenybody else get better. You can only help when they are ready.

And ultralight angler, I'm sorry but I cringed a little bit when I read about you and your sister agreeing to donate stuff you were given to keep. Because honesty is really really important. The hoarder has to be honest with themself and other people have to be honest with them. If they catch you lying or tricking them, they won't trust you, the stuff problem actually gets worse, and you can't help them later if they get redy unless you rebuild that trust.

The book that really helped me was " stuff: compulsive hoarding and the meaning of things". Although, I found it helpful and hopeful, and when I recommended it to my cousin to help her understand her dad - who is the worst hoarder in our family, her response was " I read your book and now I'm scared to death."

It's hard too because usually by the time the hoarder is ready to change everyone around them has heard it a thousand times and doesn't believe any more. In fact, the hoarder might have been ready to change many times and failed many times, so why will now be different? And maybe it won't. But you have to approach it from an "ok, try again fail better" stance, because anything else makes the problem worse instead of better.

I'm lucky, because my husband really really loves me. And this poor man who just wants to not have stuff all over the floor actually accepted that he was going to have to start by understanding that it actually made me feel ill to throw out the styrofoam (we can't recycle it here) and we were going to work together to bring as little styrofoam home as we could and he was going to praise me and hug me so I felt better when I threw it away. And I was going to have to accept that the styrofoam was trash and that if I kept it, it didn't make the styrofoam not trash, it made my house the dump.

Yes, that's crazy. Hoarding is crazy. And that's just one example. You have to reprogram your brain. And now I can throw styrofoam away without external positive reinforcement. (but I really wish I could recycle it)

I just realized I could keep rambling for pages. What do you want to know?

[Chicken lady]

Oh, and serial posting but one of the problems with fighting hoarding is that people give you stuff. Unlike alcoholism, where family, friends, and random strangers very rarely try to hand you a free drink.

[Ultralight]

I realize it was dishonest of my sister and I. But at the time it seemed rather trivial -- a white lie to spare my mom's feelings.

Now I tell both of my parents this: "Whatever you give me is mine. And since it is my property I will do anything I want with it -- that may mean I sell it or give it away or even throw it away."

They don't like this and have since stopped giving me anything. I am okay with that. I feel like, while they are unhappy with this, we at least understand each other now.

Thoughts?

[Chicken lady]

Good. I am sure they hate that, but i think it is good for them. And since they are no longer giving you anything, they recognize that you are being honest. That is also good.

I have a deal with my dd - anything I give her, I am giving her, not mine any more. but some things are on indefinite loan - I want her to have them if she wants them, but before she can get rid of them she has to check with me and her siblings and we have the option to come get them - like my mom's hope chest. These items are few, but if she doesn't accept the terms, she desn't get the thing. Often if I send her home with leftovers she points to the container and asks " do I have to bring this back?". Usually I say "no" and get a big grin for my reward.

This is the child I traumatized the most with my hoarding and I am so grateful we can talk about it and work together now. We actually had a long talk with her and her boyfriend last weekend explaining that some of the stuff that has been going on with them lately is her reacting to me, not to him, and that I am really sorry and that hopefully he can be patient and just keep pointing out " that's your mom, not me.". We told him some awful stories and were all actually able to laugh.

My kids and I have talked about my stuff, and they know that while I do not expect them to keep it, I would appreciate it if they would dispose of it as optimally as possible - keeping what they each really want - even if that means one sibling keeps much and others keep less or little. And getting the rest to where it will be most enjoyed or useful if possible. That might mean sold, donated, or even recycled. They said they will,and I guess if this is the one white lie I'll never know - lol!

Do your parents see any problem at all with their situation?

[Ultralight]

My dad sort of sees it, but he is also resigned to it. I think he'd be more normal if it weren't for my mom. She has the hoarding compulsion very badly. My dad has said to my sister in private: "We either unload this stuff now, or you and your brother do it when we die."

But my mom really won't budge.

My dad has tried some trickery to get me to take things. His prized possessions are his guns. He gave me a rifle and said, "if you decide you don't want this just give it back. No harm. No foul."

So I did give it back to him some months later. Then the next time he came over he gave it back to me and said: "I want you to hold on to this for me. It isn't yours. You don't have to count it as a possession. You just keep it, shoot it when you like. Just leave it in your closet."

I asked: "When will you want it back?"

He said: "I don't know."

LOL

I was like: "You are basically just giving it to me in every way but calling it mine!"

So I told him I was giving it to my sis and BIL. They took it and like it. haha

I do feel like my mom chooses her stuff over my sis and I. :(

[Chicken lady]

I would have just taken the gun back. No harm, no foul.

Have you told your mom how you feel? How is she choosing he stuff over you two? Can you not visit? Or do you just hate to visit? It sounds like your d isn't actually a hoarder, just a guy living in a hoard.

[Ultralight]

An example is this: When I told mom I was facing possible lay offs at work and that I was considering selling a few things to get a little cash on hand (perhaps my canoe, for instance) she immediately freaked out and said: "Don't sell that .22 revolver we gave you!!!!"

No "That is horrible! Maybe you'll be spared the lay off. No "Oh, I am sorry son. Maybe you'll be able to get another job with the state."

Nope, she just didn't want me to sell something she and my dad gave me. Stuff -- that little revolver -- was the first thing that came to her mind.

She never visited me for the 4.5 years I lived in Alabama or the 2 years I loved in Arizona. Not once. She preferred to stay with her hoard.

On that fateful day when my sister was helping to clean her house I remember my sis found some pics from back in her her high school days (my sis's not my mom's). My sis was like: "These are my old pics. I am throwing them away along with my 2003 yearbook."

My mom flipped out because she was sentimental about the old photos of my sister. She was crying and yelling. I remember thinking: "Who cares about keeping these photos you never look at, mom?! If you love my sister so much why don't you just make the 2.5 hour drive on the weekends and visit her?"

I didn't say that but my mom really could do that! She and my dad have a camper van. They could stay one mile away in the Wal-Mart lot or right in the driveway of my sister's house.

My sis thinks the same thing, that my dad is not a hoarder but rather a guy who lives in a hoard and has adapted to it. That is possible.

I am just so impressed that you can admit this about yourself and fight it. I mean it, Chicken lady. That is profound. You know how few people in your position can do that? You must have powerful self-reflection skills. And some serious discipline!

[Tammy]

I'm enjoying listening to this conversation. I'm very interested in hearing from you chicken lady about a few things. What is the thought process that most commonly ran through your mind that caused the hoarding? What caused you to change?

I'm so amazed that you changed so much. Most people don't, from what I know.

My dad is an avid collector of many things. Nice antique things, but great in number. He collects for several years, then slowly sells them often at a profit, while starting new collections of other categories. His house is like a clean, beautiful, eclectic museum. But very crowded on every wall and surface. I don't know if I would categorize it as hoarding exactly. It's more like he's running an antique business in his home. But I'm sure that's a big reason that I'm such a minimalist as an adult.

It's funny how me and one brother are alike and our other two siblings are collectors.

[shadowmoss]

I am a recovering hoarder. That is the first time I've actually written that, but a lot of what I feel is what I see talked about with hoarders. I tend to anthr... heck, I tend to assign human feelings and thoughts to 'things' I gave away some plastic drawers I had used for many years when I left Honduras. I was kinda teary and apologizing to them as I cleaned them off while waiting for the person to come get them, that I was 'abandoning' them down in Honduras. That kind of thing. I've hung around here for, I don't know, 15 years? Since the original board that was just one long listing of posts with no topic separation. About the time She-Ra actually realized she was retired. I followed Fly-Lady for awhile, and that helped some. I got rid of the wedding trinkets (ring pillow, cake knife, etc.) that I'd kept from my wedding almost 20 years before that had ended in divorce 2 years later while following Fly-Lady. I always laughed with envy when Fawn would post her yearly 'thing' count and we'd say I am the 'anti-Fawn' as in mater/anti-mater.

I have a fraction of what I used to have 20 years ago. But, I still have too much. I once had 2 10x20' storage units besides what I had with me while I was moving. Actually, I've had that much and more, and they were packed full. When I brought all my stuff out here to AZ 2 years ago I just naturally got the biggest truck Budget offered. It was only about 3/4 full. In other moves that would have been about half of my stuff. So, progress.

[freshstart]

that's a lot of progress! and kudos for calling yourself a recovered hoarder for the first time

[Chicken lady]

Hi Shadowmoss!

I couldn't move in one full size truck now. But we have a workshop and a pottery studio and a farm... Many big tools and equipment.


Tammy, I still collect things. You would probably call my house crowded. Dh makes rules. For example - we have his grandfather's bar. We both wanted it, but he was concerned about the storage. He agreed to accept it, but the rules were "this is my bar. You may request and drink the booze that is kept in the bar. I will select the glassware that goes in the bar. Nothing will ever be put down on the top of the bar even to change your grip.". I set that in my head and agreed and we got the bar. Sometimes I have to clear off the table so we can eat, but there is never anything on top of the bar. The study is also his. It is very open. I actually have to ask "may I bring my (book, coffee mug, knitting....) into the study?


I don't really anthropomorphism except with a few things like my teddy bear, who has been around since some time before I took him to the hospital with me when I was two. But that is a hoarder trait.


My triggers tend to be connections to people - I can't get rid of this because my kids made it together when they were small, and when I look at it I relive that moment of all of them being little and best friends and so proud of themselves and what if I give it away and I forget?; usefulness - hoarders tend to be very imaginative and creative. we can look at a scrap of trash and think of many ways it could be used/upcycled. We really believe we will find time to do that; and waste - never throw anything away because you might find a way to use it again or somebody might need it or styrofoam recycling might become available and all this will be lost in the landfill. (I am not really that obsessed with styrofoam, it just makes an easy example. I am obsessed with everything.)


I was raised in a family that reinforced all three tendencies. My grandfather was an only child on a subsistence farm in the depression. He worked his way through law school so that he could give us everything. My grandmother was a spoiled princess whose father was a merchant and banker in a small town and she was delighted to help my grandfather shower us with the everything. The hoarding genes came from her, but a lot of the reinforcement came from him. They had two kids. Both of them got the hoarding traits, but in my mother it isn't as bad because she also got an overwhelming sense of empathy and connection to people. She will often call me and say "do you think it's alright if I give ' thing' to 'person' because...". Sometimes I have to suggest that she buy person a new thing because I know she still uses thing a lot. And my father moderates her. My uncle is really bad. He retired. He still owns the office building. He is hiding stuff in the building from my aunt.


My brother and i are both hoarders. My cousin leans toward minimalist. I have a lot of theories about how that happened. I think my brother and I also got enough from my mom that eventually we were able to see how we were effecting our people and want to change. In my brother's case he took the alcoholic approach. He buys nothing. He accepts nothing. All things are purchased and managed by his wife. She chooses his clothing and food. When my grandmother died he refused to help clear out the house. He refused to come back to the house. He gave my sil a list of remembered items from the house that he wanted and she decided what was reasonable and passed the list to my mom.


Ultralightangler, I'm sorry. Your mom is really sick. I don't know if it would help you, but maybe if you think of it like advanced Alzheimer's, where she doesn't remember you, but it isn't her fault. Only I'm sad for you, because I do believe people can recover from this.


Do your parents travel in their camper at all? I don't know if the two things are connected, but I also tend toward hermitage. I leave the house on days I work and a few times a year to travel to visit family. If leave for anything else it's an significant event.


My kid just called to talk about her boyfriend's boxes (his dad died, his mom sold the house, he had one weekend to move his stuff out) and the storage racks he just bought for the basement. I was able to talk her down. We focused on the fact that after two weeks her living room/ kitchen/dining area are almost back to normal and only one significant item was ever put in the main bedroom. He is not me. Normal people put a shelf in the basement and put their Christmas decorations (tree, train, a few boxes of decorations) on it.

[pinkytoe]

I'm not a hoarder but am trying to understand why I am having such a hard time letting go of certain things as we prepare to move. They are mostly sentimental things that belonged to other people like my parents and that I ended up with - furniture, photos, books, etc. They all elicit a memory - mostly bittersweet since my parent's lives were mostly sad. I feel like I am dishonoring them by letting their things go. Anyway, it is a process and I am unraveling the reasons as I proceed. The Marie Kondo (sp)? book is actually pretty helpful in that respect. There is a house around the corner, uninhabited for several years now with weeds grown high and things stacked on the porch. An old dead car in the driveway is covered with dust and filled with debris. The elderly daughter of the original owner comes by every week or so and talks about how she doesn't want to change anything because that was "Daddy's house" (he was a hoarder and I suspect she is too). The nieghbors are complicit by not turning her into code compliance so it endures. Humans are strange creatures.

[pinkytoe]

The more I ponder this question the more I realize that our stuff is like anchors that keep us from floating away into the great unknown. In that respect, the more we hoard the greater our feeling of being moored. Armchair psychology.

[catherine]

I'm not a hoarder but am trying to understand why I am having such a hard time letting go of certain things as we prepare to move. They are mostly sentimental things that belonged to other people like my parents and that I ended up with - furniture, photos, books, etc. They all elicit a memory - mostly bittersweet since my parent's lives were mostly sad. I feel like I am dishonoring them by letting their things go.

I identify a lot with what you said. If I were to downsize, my biggest problem would be getting rid of sentimental stuff. I have this weird thing that people shouldn't be allowed to evaporate from memories, and so their "things" help keep them grounded to the people to whom they once made a difference. For this reason, one of my hobbies is Ancestry.com and I'm completely obsessed with not just dates, but with all the stories I can find and string together about my ancestors, to keep them alive, so to speak.

I agree that Marie Kondo is helpful--and I've heard of useful ways to deal with this "disorder" -- like taking pictures of stuff and then letting them go.

Interestingly, I'm not at all into tombstones and cemeteries. Maybe I should be--that's the most appropriate repository for remembering the dead--not all the junk of theirs that we wind up tripping over.

[Chicken lady]

I don't know Catherine, I was 10 when we buried my great grandfather. I'm sure I could ask my mom where that was, but I don't remember. I can't imagine standing by a gravestone being an appropriate way to honor nd remember him. But when I use his scythe - on which he moved the grip to accomodate his swing, I know that even though he is tall in my memory, I am now the same height. And when I use his clay tools or run my hands over a piece of his work, I think about him taking time to feed his soul on a winter evening after a long day of work - because I understand that even in the winter there is a lot of work on a farm. And these things make me respect and honor him and feel that he is a part of me.

[catherine]

I don't know Catherine, I was 10 when we buried my great grandfather. I'm sure I could ask my mom where that was, but I don't remember. I can't imagine standing by a gravestone being an appropriate way to honor nd remember him. But when I use his scythe - on which he moved the grip to accomodate his swing, I know that even though he is tall in my memory, I am now the same height. And when I use his clay tools or run my hands over a piece of his work, I think about him taking time to feed his soul on a winter evening after a long day of work - because I understand that even in the winter there is a lot of work on a farm. And these things make me respect and honor him and feel that he is a part of me.

Well said, Chicken lady. The best times of my life were spent with my great-aunt in her beach cottage. She taught me how to sew. I used to say that if I died and wound up in Madison (where her cottage was), I would know I'd made it to heaven. So, I have her old portable Singer (circa 1920) that I use as a bookend. I have her desk in my living room, her hurricane lamp in my bedroom. They do help me to remember her every day.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I remember the dead by often returning to the past in memory, so vividly I can sense every detail, almost as if it could be today and not long ago. I'm not sure it's really a better way though.

[ToomuchStuff]

My dad sort of sees it, but he is also resigned to it. I think he'd be more normal if it weren't for my mom. She has the hoarding compulsion very badly. My dad has said to my sister in private: "We either unload this stuff now, or you and your brother do it when we die."
I do feel like my mom chooses her stuff over my sis and I. :(

Some of us connect with stuff more then people, myself included. My mom is making my dad get rid of stuff now, so we won't have to later.


Oh, and serial posting but one of the problems with fighting hoarding is that people give you stuff. Unlike alcoholism, where family, friends, and random strangers very rarely try to hand you a free drink.

So many alcoholics, will give an alcoholic a drink in my experience. Hoarders are more likely to try to pass junk on to the kids/grandkids (inlaw's parents), also IMHE.


I'm not a hoarder but am trying to understand why I am having such a hard time letting go of certain things as we prepare to move. They are mostly sentimental things that belonged to other people like my parents and that I ended up with - furniture, photos, books, etc. They all elicit a memory - mostly bittersweet since my parent's lives were mostly sad. I feel like I am dishonoring them by letting their things go. Anyway, it is a process and I am unraveling the reasons as I proceed. The Marie Kondo (sp)? book is actually pretty helpful in that respect. There is a house around the corner, uninhabited for several years now with weeds grown high and things stacked on the porch. An old dead car in the driveway is covered with dust and filled with debris. The elderly daughter of the original owner comes by every week or so and talks about how she doesn't want to change anything because that was "Daddy's house" (he was a hoarder and I suspect she is too). The nieghbors are complicit by not turning her into code compliance so it endures. Humans are strange creatures.

Sentiment is always bittersweet, as you have a good memory, mixed with the loss. If something is associated with a bad memory, then it tend to be easier to get rid of (it isn't an always thing, but more often then not, IMHE). There is a difference between reliving the past and remembering the past so things don't repeat. I think hoarding goes more towards the first part of that and switching that train of thought can help.
I first wrote "then they tend to" rather then "then IT tends to", and I think that goes towards our/humans tendency's to humanize things (and we get exposed to that in writings/books). I am more and more feeling like that is a disservice, unless your an author.

But UltraliteAngler, has been posting about the other extreme, extreme minimalism. Where simple living to me, is more about right sizing. Finding ones balance so it doesn't interfere with a sense of purpose. That is what I am working on, along with trying to be more comfortable around people.

[libby]

I am struggling with understanding my hoarding MIL. One thing she hoards is empty cardboard boxes. Her garage is packed right full of them. What could possibly be the reason for keeping a garage full of empty boxes?? I don't get it...

[Chicken lady]

She might need one. And she will have exactly the right size. It was always such a rush when a kid needed something that normal people don't keep and I could produce it. And one for their friend too....

A sturdy cardboard box is so full of potential.

Also she might have plans for the boxes. Have you asked her? My tower of boxes is for mulching the garden. Only this year - I've actually been using them up!

At one point, my kid asked for some of my boxes for moving and I said "they're gone.". She said " What?!" and I said " they're gone. I used them up in the garden. All I've left is the flat ones the windows came in because I haven't cut them up yet.". She was shocked. I was sad because I couldn't give her boxes. But then, she was really proud of me. And she told me it was ok, she could get boxes somewhere else.

Is there cardboard recycling in her area?

[pinkytoe]

Around here, cardboard boxes and paper sacks are roach magnets so don't like to keep too many. I would think that hoarders might have issues with insects and rats too.

[Float On]

Around here, cardboard boxes and paper sacks are roach magnets

and silverfish too - ick! (which reminds me I really need to dig 9 banker boxes of tax records out of the dormer attic space and get them out of the house)

[libby]

Around here the piles of boxes would attract mice. It just makes no sense to me that she would not want to keep her garage useable for parking her vehicle. The inside of her house is in the sMe condition as the garage. However her yard could be featured in any fancy gardening magazine. She is all about outward appearances. Just don't go past the front door.

[Ultralight]

There are so, so many interesting, heartfelt, and insightful comments in this thread. I am going to take some time to consider them all.

One person referred to my fascination with extreme minimalism as being the other end of the hoarding spectrum.

I am actually very curious as to whether or not hoarding and extreme minimalism share some characteristics in the brain. fMRIs have been done on hoarders. Their brains are literally different than the rest of the population. I wonder what fMRIs of the brains of extreme minimalists would look like.

I feel like I am in control of my minimalism. For instance, I had a box fan that was old and clunky. I donated it thinking I probably did not really need it anyway. About a month later I realized I did need it because I used it to dry some clothes that could not go through the dryer. This had slipped my mind. I went to Target and bought a new one for $25. No real qualms about the acquisition. :)

I have also been as low as 167 possessions, and as changes in my life have happened I have gone back up to as many as 189. So it fluctuates.

I watched a documentary some time back. In it, a historian said something like this: "In most Native American cultures and in the cultures of indigenous people in other parts of the world a person owning more things than they themselves actually need is considered a form of mental illness."

I think this demonstrates that where on the minimalist-to-hoarder spectrum is deemed mental illness is socially constructed.

Thoughts?

[shadowmoss]

Ummmm... Doesn't everyone keep the 'good' cardboard boxes, you know, just in case?

/me slinks off to ponder the cardboard boxes that have crept in since she last got rid of 'all' of them.

[libby]

Ummmm... Doesn't everyone keep the 'good' cardboard boxes, you know, just in case?

/me slinks off to ponder the cardboard boxes that have crept in since she last got rid of 'all' of them.

These boxes I speak of literally fill a single car garage floor to ceiling front to back. Would cause a cardboard box avalanche if the overhead door was opened. Yeah she keeps them "just in case".

[ApatheticNoMore]

and silverfish too - ick!

hmm I've always co-existed quite peacefully with them. The last apartment had roaches, they were disgusting and gross and smelly, ugh so smelly. This apartment has silverfish (but haven't yet seen a roach). The roaches I hated, the silverfish don't bother. I suppose plastic storage boxes would keep silverfish from getting into papers and stuff. But of course since they were here when I moved in I suspect they also just live off the glue and paper in the walls.


Ummmm... Doesn't everyone keep the 'good' cardboard boxes, you know, just in case?

well I have kept a few with the thought of if I moved ... I guess I average about 4 years at a place (and move for good reasons, like the roaches - plus that place had other problems, or continually increasing rents). But one can always get boxes for that, so I don't know how justifiable it really is at all, maybe I'll get rid of them.

[Ultralight]

shadowmoss:

I think having a few cardboard boxes around is not a bad idea at all. Might be a really good idea depending on your lifestyle. When I was married my ex had a lot of artwork, some hers and some from others. But since we moved a lot it made sense for us to keep boxes around, for general moving but also to move and/or store the artwork when it was not on display. Right now I have two plastic tubs for storage, one big one and one little one for outdoorsy stuff. I also use my luggage case and a backpack to store out-of-season clothing.

[JaneV2.0]

Ummmm... Doesn't everyone keep the 'good' cardboard boxes, you know, just in case?

/me slinks off to ponder the cardboard boxes that have crept in since she last got rid of 'all' of them.

I've kept boxes around here ever since I moved in, when I started yearning to move out. I hope they'll be useful soon.

I like to think of myself as a curator. Or maybe an archivist. Some part of my mind is absolutely convinced that I can take it with me.

[Chicken lady]

The cardboard box discussion is interesting to me. I have been working on eliminating cardboard as a storage option because it was horrible when my basement flooded, because of silverfish, because mice an chew through it, and because it is very damp here. Also, you can't keep a cardboard box on a concrete floor because of moisture. So over the years I have bought a lot of bins. I do however have a bin full of small cardboard boxes suitable for gift wrapping.

I have only had a rat problem once. A litte brown rat made it's home under the concrete stoop to my barn and then tunneled up so it could chew into my feed sacks. I solved the problem with trash cans for feed and cutting the vegetation around the stoop to under 2". We do get mice in the house. Again, they are mostly a problem in the pantry, but I worry about them making homes in my stuff - especially blankets and yarn. Our cat seems to only like outdoor mice.

If you have roaches, they will hitchhike to your new home in corrogated cardboard.

Jane, I'm not going ;)

[libby]

Ummmm... Doesn't everyone keep the 'good' cardboard boxes, you know, just in case?

/me slinks off to ponder the cardboard boxes that have crept in since she last got rid of 'all' of them.
I think the three little words "just in case" pretty much sum up the thinking of people with hoarding problems. I certainly am not judging just trying to understand....

[Ultralight]

Libby:

"Just in case" is more of an instrumental hoarding issue. This style of hoarding is when people see infinite future uses for things. Like think of a plastic bottle cap. To you or I it is just a plastic bottle cap or a piece of garbage. But to an instrumental hoarder they might see it as a little milk bowl for a kitten or a place to put tiny screws or tacks. They can come up with so many uses that it makes "just in case" seem even more plausible.

[Simplemind]

My dad saved the foil that he used to wrap around pot pies to use over and over. Geez dad, you can afford to spring for an inch of foil each time you make a pot pie. He also didn't want me to throw away broken rubber bands because they made great cat toys. When cleaning out the junk drawer in the kitchen we found the plastic tear off tops from snack type items, about 50 of them. We couldn't figure out why you would save any let alone 50. I didn't see anything around that made sense to save them. I went through a lot of emotions cleaning out that property.

[Ultralight]

Simplemind: That sounds like instrumental hoarding. The interesting thing is that people often say things like: "That person lived through the depression" or "That person grew up in tough times." But hoarding has no correlation to poverty or growing up lacking things, according to the research.

[libby]

Simplemind: That sounds like instrumental hoarding. The interesting thing is that people often say things like: "That person lived through the depression" or "That person grew up in tough times." But hoarding has no correlation to poverty or growing up lacking things, according to the research.

My MiL grew up in a household of extreme hoarders. That is what she learned. My husband also struggles with that issue. I think it is a learned behaviour so why is it so difficult to unlearn?

[Ultralight]

libby:

The research shows that it is partly, if not mostly, genetic. There is something wrong with chromosome 14 that makes people hoard. While the study of compulsive hoarding is very new, they do know there is a large genetic component. They also know that emotionally troubled kids are more like to grow up and be hoarders. Another interesting factoid is that only Cognitive Behavioral Therapy has thus far been shown to work at all to help hoarders.

But heroin addicts are more likely to overcome their addiction than hoarders are. It is an incredibly difficult to disorder to overcome.

One other thing, most hoarders are just cluttered or shopaholics, but then there is a trigger moment. Maybe it is the death of a child or spouse, maybe it is an illness or injury. But suddenly the person goes from cluttered to full on extreme hoarding.

[Simplemind]

I wouldn't have called my parents hoarders, at least not proper hoarding as I have seen first hand. They did grow up with little and in my dad's case, extreme neglect. He has told me of a home he was in as a child that struck a note with him. He vowed to have as nice if not nicer. In fact, many of the things in the home I just worked on for the last several years were duplications of that home he admired. I swear he did a Scarlet O'Hara and said "As God is my witness, I will never be poor". He went from the kid who envied to the man to be envied. I swear to you we had everything except a giraffe. Don't get me wrong, they had an amazing home filled to the brim with beautiful things but at some point things started to get weird. My dad was a neat freak and at some point it changed. To say my mom was a relaxed housekeeper would be an understatement. A little over 10 years ago I started to get antsy going over there. Things weren't being cared for, cleaned or put away. I knew what was in my future. Dementia was a big part of it. My dad is still alive but I moved him into assisted living in February and then jumped into taking care of the house. I had been working on the outer property for the past three years, not touching the house. I worked my tush off for four months before I had to raise the white flag and call in a pro. Even after I went through several dumpsters and flat beds, what wasn't garbage was still too overwhelming to get through. If my dad knew what it sold for it would break his heart.

[Ultralight]

Each person's relationship to "stuff" is so individual and intriguing. Thanks for sharing more of yours and your family's story.

[JaneV2.0]

...

Jane, I'm not going ;)

I know--I want to see how this turns out!

[Chicken lady]

Simplemind, i'm sorry for the pain you went through with your parent's house.

I am an instrumental hoarder. Actually I fit in several categories. I think that the tendency toward hoarding is innate, but how it is expressed is a product of your environment - "learned". As a parent, teacher and artist I have many opportunities for my instrumental hoarding to bring me reinforcement and dig a deeper channel in my brain. My dd called home from college her freshman year and said " I need 100 identical items to build an art project out of and I have a $5 budget." I was able to give her choices! For free! Happiness! Pride! The pleasure centers just lit up. My fellow teachers know I am their go to girl. - social status!

You need a lot of people on your cognitive behavioral therapy team. I am lucky because I have a lot of people who love me and understand me and will take the time to help me make new paths even when it seems ridiculous. In some ways it's like physical therapy for a severe injury. Only you can SEE the physical effects of an injury, so you don't feel stupid or frustrated when you tell a full grow person "great job! You got three beads on the string today!" or whatever. Today my daughter's boyfriend asked if cd cases were recyclable. And I said "no. You have to throw them away. And if you save them, it doesn't make them not trash, it makes your house the dump.". And my non-demonstrative daughter got up, walked across the room, wrapped her arms around me and buried her face in my shoulder. These are the things I hold on to when I'm trying to throw away the trash. That is worth way more than $5. My coworkers can go buy craft supplies.

Ultralightangler, I'm not so sure about the trauma theory. I think there can be a lot of small "traumas" that aren't really traumas to normal people, or even large traumas that push you one way or another - usually they intensify the hoarding behaviors, like an addict reaching for more, but maybe sometimes they can also be wake up calls. And I think in some cases, the behavior just slowly takes over your life until you reach a tipping point and give up.

Libby, religion can also be seen as a learned behavior, but whatever culture a person is raised in, I think some feel a deep connection to the divine and others nothing. Those who are deeply devout might have taken a different path in a different culture, and may even convert, but are unlikely to "unlearn" religion.

[ToomuchStuff]

My MiL grew up in a household of extreme hoarders. That is what she learned. My husband also struggles with that issue. I think it is a learned behaviour so why is it so difficult to unlearn?


libby:

The research shows that it is partly, if not mostly, genetic. There is something wrong with chromosome 14 that makes people hoard. While the study of compulsive hoarding is very new, they do know there is a large genetic component. They also know that emotionally troubled kids are more like to grow up and be hoarders. Another interesting factoid is that only Cognitive Behavioral Therapy has thus far been shown to work at all to help hoarders.

But heroin addicts are more likely to overcome their addiction than hoarders are. It is an incredibly difficult to disorder to overcome.

One other thing, most hoarders are just cluttered or shopaholics, but then there is a trigger moment. Maybe it is the death of a child or spouse, maybe it is an illness or injury. But suddenly the person goes from cluttered to full on extreme hoarding.
First, any link to the science/data?
I ask in part because both genetics and environment are predetermination verses free will. Also in the case of genetics, there is some evidence that it adapts/evolves (from Darwin to studies of Twins, where one gets cancer and the other doesn't). I bring that point up, because I deal with it every day of my life. (another subject, not the right time/place)

Second, unlearning a behavior does involve some things:
Want/need to change
Practice, practice, practice
then of course other things help:
Support
Guidance
reinforcement
and in some cases there is a physical element (example the patch for smokers).

[Chicken lady]

Here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18616610

Less technical:
http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-genetics-of-compulsive-hoarding/

Also:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/708049

[Float On]

My dd called home from college her freshman year and said " I need 100 identical items to build an art project out of and I have a $5 budget." I was able to give her choices! For free! Happiness! Pride! The pleasure centers just lit up.


Being able to allow someone else (even a daughter) to take 100 identical items from your home for her use is a huge thing in the hording spectrum. To be able to say "I've got it for you", and to feel "Happiness" and "Pride" is really big. What I've seen, a horder of items tends to be very self-centered - they might need it someday and can't bless others with their things. I just wanted to point that out because I think it is worthy of note.

[Chicken lady]

I think it stems from your definition of us and them. Self/family/tribe and mine vs. ours vs. theirs.

For example, when ultralightangler's mother let his dad give him the gun, she was NOT giving up the gun, she was just accepting that him having the gun was the same as her having the gun. Letting him have it when the idea of selling it panics her actually shows that she has a strong connection to him.

I have saved things that could have been used by multiple children in my community by now if I had passed them on, because MY grandchildren *might* need or want them. I don't personally know those other children. So i think the more social connections a hoarder has, the easier it is to "share" the hoard. Unfortunately hoarders tend to withdrawal from social connections as either a related trait or a consequence of hoarding. Also, on the flip side, the more connection you feel to someone, the more compelled you feel to hoard THEIR stuff.

[catherine]

I have saved things that could have been used by multiple children in my community by now if I had passed them on, because MY grandchildren *might* need or want them. I don't personally know those other children. So i think the more social connections a hoarder has, the easier it is to "share" the hoard. Unfortunately hoarders tend to withdrawal from social connections as either a related trait or a consequence of hoarding. Also, on the flip side, the more connection you feel to someone, the more compelled you feel to hoard THEIR stuff.

Interesting… I have in my basement right now two things relevant to the conversation: a jacket my son wore when he went the premiere of a movie he was in, and a Disney costume (Beauty from Beauty and the Beast) that my daughter wore one Halloween. It was the only costume we bought as opposed to making, so it was very expensive in my mind. (Actually my DH bought it for her--I wouldn't have).

What the heck are these things doing in the basement for 20 years?? As you said, I've often thought about the joy that that Disney costume would give another little girl, but I have fallen into the "someday when I have a granddaughter" trap.

Because I have a strong grounding in Catholicism (no longer am Catholic, but I attended 12 years of Catholic school), I think it's literally a sin to hoard things in that way. It goes back to Jesus' "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal." I feel that it's a sin for me to keep things to myself rather than release them for the good of others. I am not passing judgment on anyone else, but for me, accepting it as my own sinfulness helps me to deal with it.

[Chicken lady]

Interesting to me in that context - I heard a progressive rabbi speak once who said that the word translated as "sin" from Hebrew might more accurately be described as "missing the mark".

[catherine]

Interesting to me in that context - I heard a progressive rabbi speak once who said that the word translated as "sin" from Hebrew might more accurately be described as "missing the mark".

Yes, that's how I see it. To me, sin isn't guilt-inducing indictment of my character, but kind of a marker of something I should correct in order to be happier/closer to God.

[Ultralight]

Catherine:

I grew up half-Catholic (Mom was Catholic; Dad was secular). And I feel much the same way! When I see someone with 40 pairs of shoes I think: "Imagine on the kids in Haiti that need those shoes!" Ya know?

[pony mom]

Interesting to me in that context - I heard a progressive rabbi speak once who said that the word translated as "sin" from Hebrew might more accurately be described as "missing the mark".

I think Eckhart Tolle explains sin the same way in A New Earth. Actually he explains many things in the bible in ways that make much more sense to me.

[Simplemind]

Ultralite that is so funny. I also grew up going to Catholic school. My mother loved it because it saved so much on clothes. I think I wore the same two jumpers for all those years, mom just kept lengthening them. She only had to buy blouses and shoes. For 26 years I worked a job with a uniform. To this day I'm not comfortable with a lot of clothes.

[Float On]

For example, when ultralightangler's mother let his dad give him the gun, she was NOT giving up the gun, she was just accepting that him having the gun was the same as her having the gun. Letting him have it when the idea of selling it panics her actually shows that she has a strong connection to him.



Oh I think I have an example of that too.... My grandmother had several strokes, my grandfather got hit in the head by a car, the family had to move them out of their big house into a little 1 bed/1bath cottage Sr assisted living unit. My grandmother wanted all her things and was loud and demanding (the stroked changed her personality). There wasn't possibly room for everything. Dad asked her if he could give me one of her rockers (she had 4). She cried and yelled and finely said "OK, but it was only on loan, I had to give it back when she could move to a bigger house." Everytime I saw her, she wanted to know how I was taking care of her rocker. She passed about 3 months later and grandpa lived another year with brain damage. 18 years later I still consider that grandma's rocker, not mine because it wasn't a gift....just on loan.

[ToomuchStuff]

Oh I think I have an example of that too.... My grandmother had several strokes, my grandfather got hit in the head by a car, the family had to move them out of their big house into a little 1 bed/1bath cottage Sr assisted living unit. My grandmother wanted all her things and was loud and demanding (the stroked changed her personality). There wasn't possibly room for everything. Dad asked her if he could give me one of her rockers (she had 4). She cried and yelled and finely said "OK, but it was only on loan, I had to give it back when she could move to a bigger house." Everytime I saw her, she wanted to know how I was taking care of her rocker. She passed about 3 months later and grandpa lived another year with brain damage. 18 years later I still consider that grandma's rocker, not mine because it wasn't a gift....just on loan.

This made me laugh, thinking about a some stories. One is how people always say you can't take it with you and how I once saw someone who disagreed. (think it may have been a comedian) They stated that a check for the total of the value of the estate was placed in the pocket of the dead, and if they wanted the stuff they could just cash it.

Chickenlady, thanks for the links. One issue when talking about science, is without sources are we really doing any different then throwing out stuff, or things like astrology? (I am guilty of it as well, as some has been presented so much, we no longer look for or question the sources)

[Ultralight]

To those of you who are hoarders or recovering hoarders and have spouses. How would you feel and/or react if your spouse decided to get their own place?

[Chicken lady]

Umwow. Define "get their own place"

If you mean actually move out, that would be a crisis point. I can't imagine being married to somebody I didn't live with. I would want to fix it. But if he had threatened to move out when it was at the worst, I don't think I would have believed I could fix it. I think I would have just given up and I would now be a very fat, lonely, broke person living in squalor like a pack rat (the actual animal).

I do, however, understand the neat to live in a clean, open space. We have a yours/mine/ours system.

Upstairs the study is his - sparse, clean, open. I literally ask permission to bring anything in with me (coffe cup, book) if I go there to spend time with him. Bedroom and bathroom are "ours" they are more cluttered than he would like - mostly because I am working on clothes issues so there are often baskets of clothes on the floor. The top of his dresser and his nightstand are almost empty. My dresser and bedside shelf are messy and cluttered. There is too much stuff on the bathroom vanity. There are things that are purely decorative that he could do without.

Downstairs the Dining porch, livingroom, kitchen, guest bedroom that used to be ds's room, and powder room are "ours". They fluctuate, but right now I think they are pretty good. The kitchen is the worst with a sewing machine, file box, ice cream maker, and several boxes and stacks of paper on surfaces and in corners. Also the sink is full of dirty dishes and the counter is covered with produce waiting to be processed.

The bedroom/bath/sleeping porch area is currently shared by me and dd2. It's messy and cluttered, but no worse than your average kid's room right before somebody gets to spend Saturday cleaning up.

The basement is " mine" and it's pretty bad. Not " hoarders" bad anymore, but definitely "clean house" bad.

[Ultralight]

Umwow. Define "get their own place"

If you mean actually move out, that would be a crisis point. I can't imagine being married to somebody I didn't live with. I would want to fix it. But if he had threatened to move out when it was at the worst, I don't think I would have believed I could fix it. I think I would have just given up and I would now be a very fat, lonely, broke person living in squalor like a pack rat (the actual animal).

I do, however, understand the neat to live in a clean, open space. We have a yours/mine/ours system.

Upstairs the study is his - sparse, clean, open. I literally ask permission to bring anything in with me (coffe cup, book) if I go there to spend time with him. Bedroom and bathroom are "ours" they are more cluttered than he would like - mostly because I am working on clothes issues so there are often baskets of clothes on the floor. The top of his dresser and his nightstand are almost empty. My dresser and bedside shelf are messy and cluttered. There is too much stuff on the bathroom vanity. There are things that are purely decorative that he could do without.

Downstairs the Dining porch, livingroom, kitchen, guest bedroom that used to be ds's room, and powder room are "ours". They fluctuate, but right now I think they are pretty good. The kitchen is the worst with a sewing machine, file box, ice cream maker, and several boxes and stacks of paper on surfaces and in corners. Also the sink is full of dirty dishes and the counter is covered with produce waiting to be processed.

The bedroom/bath/sleeping porch area is currently shared by me and dd2. It's messy and cluttered, but no worse than your average kid's room right before somebody gets to spend Saturday cleaning up.

The basement is " mine" and it's pretty bad. Not " hoarders" bad anymore, but definitely "clean house" bad.

Yes, I meant like if a spouse were to say: "I am not okay with this situation. I am getting my own apartment and moving out. We'll still be married and spend time together, go on date nights or whatever, but I am not willing to live like this."

[Chicken lady]

Well, that would not have worked for me. I would be sleeping at his apartment. And when the kids lived here, they would also have been sleeping at his apartment. And the kids would have brought their stuff, so basically we would be moving and keeping the current house as a very expensive storage unit for my stuff.

For me and for dh, married is "all in". "I am not willing to live like this" is a starting point for figuring out how we can work together to change "like this.". Also there is a difference between "willing" and "able". I have always been more willing than able to fix the hoarding.

Expecting a sudden giant clear out is like looking at your sedentary spouse who weighs 300 lbs and saying. "There is a marathon next month. If you don't place in the top ten, we're over." On the other hand, if you truly care about that person, You might say "look, I'm worried about your health. What can I do to help you get more exercise and lose some weight?". Maybe you go for a walk together. Maybe you try some healthy recipes, maybe you cheer for them when they tell you they lost two pounds or swam ten laps without stopping, or whatever. And maybe some day they run a marathon. Or maybe not. But the point is, you don't let the situation reach unbearable without talking. So that when you have the conversation, you are no further than "the worst I can stand" and then hopefully, together, you move away from that.

[Ultralight]

Well, that would not have worked for me. I would be sleeping at his apartment. And when the kids lived here, they would also have been sleeping at his apartment. And the kids would have brought their stuff, so basically we would be moving and keeping the current house as a very expensive storage unit for my stuff.

For me and for dh, married is "all in". "I am not willing to live like this" is a starting point for figuring out how we can work together to change "like this.". Also there is a difference between "willing" and "able". I have always been more willing than able to fix the hoarding.

Expecting a sudden giant clear out is like looking at your sedentary spouse who weighs 300 lbs and saying. "There is a marathon next month. If you don't place in the top ten, we're over." On the other hand, if you truly care about that person, You might say "look, I'm worried about your health. What can I do to help you get more exercise and lose some weight?". Maybe you go for a walk together. Maybe you try some healthy recipes, maybe you cheer for them when they tell you they lost two pounds or swam ten laps without stopping, or whatever. And maybe some day they run a marathon. Or maybe not. But the point is, you don't let the situation reach unbearable without talking. So that when you have the conversation, you are no further than "the worst I can stand" and then hopefully, together, you move away from that.

Very compelling response! Interesting analogy in there too.

Your husband moving out would not have worked for you, and probably not for him because of the kind of marriage you have. It seems like you have one seriously solid marriage.

But do you think the move-out option would be good for other couples possible?

What about a situation where a couple was preparing to get married and merge lives but one was a hoarder and the other was an SLer/minimalist? And the SLer/minimalist was like: "We can get married, but I will always have my own place because I want to be clutterfree and whatnot." ...?

What would have happened if your kids, when they were teenagers just said: "I am not living like this." and attempted to move out?

If these questions are offensive then I sincerely apologize. I am asking out of curiosity. Sometimes I think that my dad would like to change his way of life majorly. But my mom just won't allow it.

I obviously worry that I could end up in that boat someday. Too deep in a relationship with a hoarder. Then what?

[Chicken lady]

When they wre teenagers? I would have paid for the apartment! I am only partly kidding. Actually, my kids have a variety a friends with many different lifestyles and spent a lot of time at other houses as teenagers. Some of their friends also spent a lot of time here. I have also generally respected their space as I do my husband's.

I can't speak for other couples. My dh works with a guy whose wife lives in another country. The guy goes home for two weeks every three months. They sound happy. I can't imagine that.

I'm a teacher of small children. I don't find curiosity offensive. Not even from people who ask things like "why is your butt so fat?" if they really want to know.

My oldest daughter is a minimalist and she has a lot of issues about stuff from living with me. She and her boyfriend moved in together when he only had a sleeping bag and a duffle bag of clothes. Her name is the only one on the lease and she told him that if it ddn't work out he was leaving and she would get a new roomate. Recently due to some major family events he has acquired a lot of stuff. When they were loading the u-haul, she looked at him and said " you understand, this changes things. If we unload this in the house and things don't work out, *i* will be leaving and you will be taking over the lease. Can you do that?"

So I guess I feel like what you are really looking for is relationship advice. The only qualification I have to give that is a sucessful relationship of 29 years - almost 25 of them married. And i'd say communicate. Often. Honestly. And have a lot of really good sex. ;)

[Ultralight]

When they wre teenagers? I would have paid for the apartment! I am only partly kidding. Actually, my kids have a variety a friends with many different lifestyles and spent a lot of time at other houses as teenagers. Some of their friends also spent a lot of time here. I have also generally respected their space as I do my husband's.

I can't speak for other couples. My dh works with a guy whose wife lives in another country. The guy goes home for two weeks every three months. They sound happy. I can't imagine that.

I'm a teacher of small children. I don't find curiosity offensive. Not even from people who ask things like "why is your butt so fat?" if they really want to know.

My oldest daughter is a minimalist and she has a lot of issues about stuff from living with me. She and her boyfriend moved in together when he only had a sleeping bag and a duffle bag of clothes. Her name is the only one on the lease and she told him that if it ddn't work out he was leaving and she would get a new roomate. Recently due to some major family events he has acquired a lot of stuff. When they were loading the u-haul, she looked at him and said " you understand, this changes things. If we unload this in the house and things don't work out, *i* will be leaving and you will be taking over the lease. Can you do that?"

So I guess I feel like what you are really looking for is relationship advice. The only qualification I have to give that is a sucessful relationship of 29 years - almost 25 of them married. And i'd say communicate. Often. Honestly. And have a lot of really good sex. ;)

Well, okay...! And LOL!

Your daughter sounds really cool! :) Good for her.

[Tammy]

I couldn't live in certain situations and I'm lucky that I married someone 34 years ago who is pretty much on the same page as me with lifestyle choices and finances. We have a few differences but they are very small in the big scheme of things.

If he dies first, I may never live with someone again. It's a huge risk.

I've often thought that society might be happier in general if everyone had their own little 500 square feet of space. Kids could be with parents for awhile but eventually everyone is autonomous in their own space. Each person chooses to join the family and/or friends on the common areas when they want to. Everyone has their privacy when they want that.

I know - I'm odd. But that would be my dream life.

[Tammy]

Oh ... And to add to the details of my utopia - in additional to separate living spaces -

People keep their own names. They each have their own finances. They each make their decisions on their possessions and activities. Sure they can get married, and kids and grandkids are awesome. But it's all with boundaries and no one owns anyone else in any form.

[Tammy]

I should write a book ... The utopia in our future :)

[Chicken lady]

Ultralightangler - my daughter is awesome. I adore her. And we both pray that she never needs to move back to my house - or worse, let me move in with her. So there's that...

[JaneV2.0]

Oh ... And to add to the details of my utopia - in additional to separate living spaces -

People keep their own names. They each have their own finances. They each make their decisions on their possessions and activities. Sure they can get married, and kids and grandkids are awesome. But it's all with boundaries and no one owns anyone else in any form.

Sounds like a perfectly good plan to me...

[Kestra]

Oh ... And to add to the details of my utopia - in additional to separate living spaces -

People keep their own names. They each have their own finances. They each make their decisions on their possessions and activities. Sure they can get married, and kids and grandkids are awesome. But it's all with boundaries and no one owns anyone else in any form.

Your dream life sounds pretty good to me. I don't need all 500 sq ft though. Around 200 would be plenty for me.

[Chicken lady]

Sharing something on thought process/progress.

Last night I refilled the feed bins. It goes like this: open feed, pour into bin, secure lid, throw way non-recyclable plastic bag including string that held bag closed. And I realized, I don't know how long I've been doing this! And I don't have to give myself a pep talk anymore!

Because it used to go: open bag. Carefully wind string onto string ball for future use, pour feed into bin, secure lid, fold bag neatly and stack with other bags in giant bag pile in barn.

I still have one ball of string the size of a baseball. And I have been throwing away the previously saved bags but there is still a small (and shrinking) pile in the barn. (small = not sure I could get them all in one trash can, but maybe)

[Chicken lady]

This week is our county fair. I entered a lot of antique items in the show that was judged today. There are no specific entry fees, just a blanket exhibitor fee that also gets you into the fair all week, so I saved $10 compared to daily passes.

Plus there are premiums, so with antiques and home and garden, I usually pay for my pass plus a bit for treats.

They change judges every year, and unlike some of the other categories, you can just keep bringing your antiques every year. So I brought some that were also shown last year. A couple won last year and didn't even place this year, and in a couple of cases I found myself thinking " hmm, I can get rid of that now." instead of " maybe next year."

I actually find this pretty astonishing.

I am also becoming aware that another woman I know through 4H is a hoarder and that it is starting to negatively impact her kids, who are about ten years younger than mine. They have 48 rabbits at fair. More at home. The club was talking about making the banner and how they had tons of materials because the house was full of anything you could imagine. I want to reach out to her, but I am trying to figure out where to start. I think the rabbits are going to be the crisis point. Last year they had 5. I'm thinking about starting the conversation by talking about the antiques (which came mostly from my grandmother's house) and shifting to my family and our hoarding issues. Maybe if anything sounds familiar she will reach out if she decides she needs to change.

[Chicken lady]

Oh, I also got reinforcement - I took some of the dolls from my doll collection and they all won first place. So I am enjoying them at home, sharing them with others, and collecting small dividends. I'm not sure if this is good for me or bad for me.

[Ultralight]

This week is our county fair. I entered a lot of antique items in the show that was judged today. There are no specific entry fees, just a blanket exhibitor fee that also gets you into the fair all week, so I saved $10 compared to daily passes.

Plus there are premiums, so with antiques and home and garden, I usually pay for my pass plus a bit for treats.

They change judges every year, and unlike some of the other categories, you can just keep bringing your antiques every year. So I brought some that were also shown last year. A couple won last year and didn't even place this year, and in a couple of cases I found myself thinking " hmm, I can get rid of that now." instead of " maybe next year."

I actually find this pretty astonishing.

I am also becoming aware that another woman I know through 4H is a hoarder and that it is starting to negatively impact her kids, who are about ten years younger than mine. They have 48 rabbits at fair. More at home. The club was talking about making the banner and how they had tons of materials because the house was full of anything you could imagine. I want to reach out to her, but I am trying to figure out where to start. I think the rabbits are going to be the crisis point. Last year they had 5. I'm thinking about starting the conversation by talking about the antiques (which came mostly from my grandmother's house) and shifting to my family and our hoarding issues. Maybe if anything sounds familiar she will reach out if she decides she needs to change.

Reaching out to another hoarder is a bold move.

A friend intimated to me last night that he is a hoarder. He is older guy, in his 50s. He apparently hired a mutual friend (a woman in her 40s) who runs an organizing business of some sort. I thinking that she is going to help him, or at least she thinks she is and intends to. He acted like he wanted some help.

[Chicken lady]

Well, if you can be as kind to him as you are being to me, you could be a lot of help just to talk to.

[Ultralight]

Thanks. My intention is to play it by ear and see how things go with the pro-organizer. I am not sure how, but I picked up the vibe that he had just now, for whatever reason, realized he has a problem on his hands. So I will be approaching this especially delicately. He knows I am an "extreme minimalist." I could definitely see him poking around and asking questions of me in the near future.

[Ultralight]

Very interesting article on hoarding: http://www.vox.com/2015/7/22/9005961/i-think-im-a-hoarder

[Chicken lady]

The organizer can help him find an approach and work through his stuff. What you can do is recognize how hard it is and give him positive feedback on his progress and maybe resources the organizer doesn't have - like alternatives to whatever he tends to accumulate: "I'm afraid to get rid f xyz because I might need it." "I found I didn't need xyz because I could use/borrow/share..."
"my kitchen is overwhelming, but I fee like I need all these things to cook.". "this is how I cook with only [limited collection of kitchen implements]" etc.

I am very excited - my recycling program just started accepting lids! So I can dump the basket of lids i collect for my rare trips to whole foods into the recycling bin this week, and then, since I don't love the basket, I can set it aside to fill with goodwill items and then drop it off, and I will have an empty space on the shelf in my laundry room and I can move the little bin of sweater drying rack supports off the dryer. Which will hopefully be a catalyst for getting all the other stuff that probably shouldn't even be in the laundry room off the dryer. The plastic dishpan that holds used cleaning rags/cloths until I run that load can go on the dryer instead of the floor. I'll be less likely to leave other stuff on the floor, the floor will be easier to sweep, and suddenly I have a clean laundry room thanks to lid recycling! You can be the guy who says "do you know we now have lid recycling?"

[pinkytoe]

The Vox article is really interesting. I love this line:

I dream of casting off this house and its contents like a shell I've outgrown

[Ultralight]

The Vox article is really interesting. I love this line:

But she wants a bigger shell to fill with more stuff... :/

[Chicken lady]

I think she may be in denial about how she scored on he diagnostic questionaire. I took it and even after huge improvements, I qualify. I would say for example: if you have to play pile tetris to use the table almost every time you want to eat and your spouse is constantly tripping over a laundry basket at night because there is nowhere to put the laundry, the use of your rooms is impaired. I think she might not. Also, if she feels no distress about disposing of her stuff, why doen't she? Etc.

[Ultralight]

I think she may be in denial about how she scored on he diagnostic questionaire. I took it and even after huge improvements, I qualify. I would say for example: if you have to play pile tetris to use the table almost every time you want to eat and your spouse is constantly tripping over a laundry basket at night because there is nowhere to put the laundry, the use of your rooms is impaired. I think she might not. Also, if she feels no distress about disposing of her stuff, why doen't she? Etc.

1. Those are really good points. I got that vibe too but could not really articulate them like you just did. Very helpful!
2. It was like, sometimes she was in denial, like you explained; sometimes she was eerily honest though, like when she said her collections will run amok and all bets are off when her kid eventually moves out.
3. I wonder... I really wonder... if she is going to reflect on what she wrote, perhaps go back and read it a few times, and then admit to herself the things you pointed out about her denial.

[rodeosweetheart]

Ultralite, great article, really sad.

We had another hoarding thread not to terribly long ago (last couple of years, anyway) and there were great posts on this subject, including two wonderful books about the psychology of hoarding. I bought them both--they were excellent, and really compassionate and really explain the psychology of hoarding to a t. I will never look at hoarding the same way, and I recognize it's a continuim, and I definitely have those tendencies and am coping with them and the process, how we relate to the objects that come into our lives.

This was one book:
Stuff: Compulsive Hoarding and the Meaning of ThingsJan 4, 2011
by Gail Steketee and Randy Frost

I think this might have been the other, not sure:
Digging Out: Helping Your Loved One Manage Clutter, Hoarding, and Compulsive AcquiringNov 1, 2009
by Michael A. Tompkins and Tamara L. Hartl

[Ultralight]

Ultralite, great article, really sad.

We had another hoarding thread not to terribly long ago (last couple of years, anyway) and there were great posts on this subject, including two wonderful books about the psychology of hoarding. I bought them both--they were excellent, and really compassionate and really explain the psychology of hoarding to a t. I will never look at hoarding the same way, and I recognize it's a continuim, and I definitely have those tendencies and am coping with them and the process, how we relate to the objects that come into our lives.

This was one book:
Stuff: Compulsive Hoarding and the Meaning of ThingsJan 4, 2011
by Gail Steketee and Randy Frost

I think this might have been the other, not sure:
Digging Out: Helping Your Loved One Manage Clutter, Hoarding, and Compulsive AcquiringNov 1, 2009
by Michael A. Tompkins and Tamara L. Hartl

Rodeo: Because my parents are both hoarders (Dad is an instrumental hoarder; mom is a sentimental hoarder; both are animal hoarders) I have read both those books, and others. You are right! Great books, very compassionate in their tone. But they do take very serious the issue of compulsive hoarding.

[rodeosweetheart]

Oh, that's so great that you have read them both! They really explain the psychology of it, which is very important. Those shows were they go in and throw everything away when the person is not there--the enforced clean out approach--very damaging to the client.

[Ultralight]

Oh, that's so great that you have read them both! They really explain the psychology of it, which is very important. Those shows were they go in and throw everything away when the person is not there--the enforced clean out approach--very damaging to the client.

Those books, and the others I read, show that even with ongoing cognitive behavioral therapy most hoarders continue to hoard; it is a really, really hard issue to overcome.

I am curious if it would be easier to overcome if diagnosed earlier. Like if the person was still just cluttering or just "collecting."

I also wonder if for those most extreme cases if "ripping the band-aid off" by clearing the place out would be less traumatic if the hoarder also got some sort of full time, residential mental health care, like in an assisted living facility of some kind.

Really though, I am not an MSW or a psychologist. But I do know that animal hoarding -- and other kinds of hoarding -- can become a major community health concern or fire hazard. So there are instances where the cops or firemen have to go in, clean the place out, and throw everything away.

[Chicken lady]

That first book was my real turning point. It was literally the first time anyone had said to me "you are not lazy, you are not disorganized, you are not weak or stupid or stubborn or uncaring, you are sick. And this is what is wrong, and guess what? You can be helped!"

Do you think digging out would be helpful if one is the hoarder?

[Ultralight]

Digging Out has a lot of good info in it. Though I think if a hoarder themselves were to read it then it would not be as helpful as other books unless that hoarder were quite self-aware.

[Chicken lady]

Oh, and yeah, Ultralightangler, that s why the rabbits really scare me. I have a vision of her husband - who is a really great guy, having to chose between losing his kids and leaving his wife. I knew a girl who called the police and had herself and her little brother removed from their parent's custody because of a pig problem. Her mom wouldn't get rid of the pigs, her dad wouldn't move out, and they ended up legally adopted by out of state grandparents.

[Ultralight]

Are you serious?!

[Chicken lady]

About the pigs and the kids? Yeah. We knew them from homeschooling. We knew the mom was a little "off" and had some struggles with depression, and other families would pick up the kids and take them to stuff when she was having a "rough time" but no one had been in the house.

They had full sized regular pigs as house pets in a 900 sq ft ranch house.

[Ultralight]

Wow... tragic. I feel bad for those kids. And the pigs too...

[Chicken lady]

So, I am kind of using this thread to brag on my anti-hoarding accomplishments.

I spent the week at the county fair. I also entered a whole bunch of items in the fair. My "souveniers" include a pastic cup I picked up because I wanted to keep refilling it from the water fountain - leaving, two t-shirts I bought and don't need - need to address t-shirts again, a reusable bag because I had too much to carry that day and my plastic bag was left in the car (yes that was lazy) - leaving, and a couple of temporary tatoos - will wash off soon.

I also won a lot of ribbons. I kept the two best of show ribbons, which are dated, but donated all the rest back to be reused.

I didn't bring home any extra pens or pencils or other free goodies except my bag and cup. I'm pretty proud of myself.

[mschrisgo2]

Chicken Lady, you have every right to be proud of yourself, that's a great accomplishment!

[Ultralight]

So, I am kind of using this thread to brag on my anti-hoarding accomplishments.

I spent the week at the county fair. I also entered a whole bunch of items in the fair. My "souveniers" include a pastic cup I picked up because I wanted to keep refilling it from the water fountain - leaving, two t-shirts I bought and don't need - need to address t-shirts again, a reusable bag because I had too much to carry that day and my plastic bag was left in the car (yes that was lazy) - leaving, and a couple of temporary tatoos - will wash off soon.

I also won a lot of ribbons. I kept the two best of show ribbons, which are dated, but donated all the rest back to be reused.

I didn't bring home any extra pens or pencils or other free goodies except my bag and cup. I'm pretty proud of myself.

Nice!! Moving in the right direction. :)

[Chicken lady]

Thanks. Fair is hard. I love it! But people keep trying to give you things. I bought the t-shirts to support two groups I believe in - and yes, I could just donate, but I wanted to also wear the shirts at fair so people could recognize me as someone who could answer questions.

What I need to do now that is also hard is donate the shirt I already have from one group that is a bad color for me, and purge another shirt from my drawer.

Somebody tried to give me a pig (an actual live pig). And one of the midway guys told me he'd give me a prize even if I didn't win. I told him "that would be the down side."

[ToomuchStuff]

Thanks. Fair is hard. I love it! But people keep trying to give you things. I bought the t-shirts to support two groups I believe in - and yes, I could just donate, but I wanted to also wear the shirts at fair so people could recognize me as someone who could answer questions.

What I need to do now that is also hard is donate the shirt I already have from one group that is a bad color for me, and purge another shirt from my drawer.



Maybe next time, you get a shirt that will fit you and "rent" it, leaving it with someone who is there, and will take it home and use it. This way they get the benefit of the money, your volunteering and someone who might not have the money, ends up with the shirt.

[Chicken lady]

I'm pretty sure that after I wear it all day I'll need to wash it before ANYONE would take it. And by then my brain has decided it's my shirt. Really, I have 11 shirts with holes in them. I need to just accept that the price of having a new shirt I like is giving up an old shirt I liked so much I wore a hole in it.

I mean, I'm still wearing shirts advertising a group that no longer exists, that are too big, and have holes in them. That's the difference between being a hoarder and not being a hoarder - I can look at my behavior and see it as irrational, but it's still really hard to change. Otoh, if i find myself, say, arguing with a three year old, I very quickly realize "this is stupid!" - and then, I stop.

[Ultralight]

This is an interesting video about a hoarder in recovery. http://kdvr.com/2015/07/30/hoarder-returns-to-same-situation-new-set-of-helping-hands-to-change-her-life/

[Chicken lady]

I can't watch it. There's too much stuff besides the video on the page and my computer crashes trying to load it.

[Ultralight]

I can't watch it. There's too much stuff besides the video on the page and my computer crashes trying to load it.

Oh well...

[thunderseed]

I realize it was dishonest of my sister and I. But at the time it seemed rather trivial -- a white lie to spare my mom's feelings.

Now I tell both of my parents this: "Whatever you give me is mine. And since it is my property I will do anything I want with it -- that may mean I sell it or give it away or even throw it away."

They don't like this and have since stopped giving me anything. I am okay with that. I feel like, while they are unhappy with this, we at least understand each other now.

Thoughts?

I don't understand what it's like to be a hoarder and have never known anyone who is. Do they give you things for sentimental reasons? I think that would even bother me if it was a sentimental gift, simply because it seems like you are rejecting a gift that has been given. I usually give very thoughtful gifts so I get upset when I find out other people don't like them. I would much rather not tell someone that I hated the gift they gave me lol.
I would be really sad if I painted art for someone and they decided to just give it away for example.
I still have this big telescope in my house and I never use it and I hate the darn thing taking up space but my parent's got it for me and it was probably the most sweetest gift they've ever given me because they know how fond I am of memories I have of the olden days stargazing with my dad. I once threatened to get rid of it because it takes up so much space and it made them really sad so I kept it and everytime they come to my house they like to see it there. I am not given sentimental gifts all the time so it's not like I've had to keep anything else. I have no problems getting rid of stuff that has no meaning, but as soon as I know it has meaning to the other person, I don't think I could throw it away. Like that darn telescope... but in a way I love it because it makes me happy to know they cared that much about me haha. I guess it would suck for me if I had someone give me terrible sentimental gifts all the time, I would eventually have to tell them to stop because I have no room but fortunately my friends and loved ones are not very sentimental people.

[Ultralight]

I don't understand what it's like to be a hoarder and have never known anyone who is. Do they give you things for sentimental reasons? I think that would even bother me if it was a sentimental gift, simply because it seems like you are rejecting a gift that has been given. I usually give very thoughtful gifts so I get upset when I find out other people don't like them. I would much rather not tell someone that I hated the gift they gave me lol.
I would be really sad if I painted art for someone and they decided to just give it away for example.
I still have this big telescope in my house and I never use it and I hate the darn thing taking up space but my parent's got it for me and it was probably the most sweetest gift they've ever given me because they know how fond I am of memories I have of the olden days stargazing with my dad. I once threatened to get rid of it because it takes up so much space and it made them really sad so I kept it and everytime they come to my house they like to see it there. I am not given sentimental gifts all the time so it's not like I've had to keep anything else. I have no problems getting rid of stuff that has no meaning, but as soon as I know it has meaning to the other person, I don't think I could throw it away. Like that darn telescope... but in a way I love it because it makes me happy to know they cared that much about me haha. I guess it would suck for me if I had someone give me terrible sentimental gifts all the time, I would eventually have to tell them to stop because I have no room but fortunately my friends and loved ones are not very sentimental people.

Hi, Thunder. Thanks for checking out this thread.

For people with compulsive hoarding, everything has very powerful meaning and/or infinite usefulness. This makes getting rid of anything very hard for them. I suggested going to your local library and reading a few books on the subject if you are interested. That is the best way to get accurate info on the disorder.

About 5% of the US population has compulsive hoarding. So you'll probably meet someone who has it eventually. Or it is totally likely that you know someone who has it, but they cleverly disguise it.

Now, here are some of my opinions and thoughts on gifts.

If you paint a picture and give it to someone and then they want to give it away because it takes up space or they simply dislike it, why would you hold that against them?

Why would your parents hold it against you that you'd like to get rid of the telescope?

I think that the answer is vanity and narcissism. Very often gift-giving is about the giver, not the getter (so to speak...).

If I gave someone a fishing pole that they did not want and took offense when they donated it to Goodwill, wouldn't it be my ego that is hurt? Like: "I love fishing. I tried to give someone something that I love. This way they can learn to love what I love. Now they gave it away and I have hurt feelings."

See how this train of thought is all about me and not about the person I gave a (very self-centered) gift to?

I have a policy about gifts I get.
1. I tell people that the only gifts I want are for people to spend time with me.
2. I tell people that if they give me a material gift then it is my property and I will do with it whatever I want. This usually means I will give it away or sell it, and sometimes I will simply trash it.
3. If someone gives me something then they should feel free to ask for it back. I will not be offended.

This three part policy usually strips away the vanity of gift giving. What I have noticed is that people just stop giving me anything. Which is great! Though sometimes people give me food, which is okay (if it is like "Here, I made you a cobbler") or it is amazing if they are like: "Hey! I got Indian take-out. Let's have dinner together!"

:)

[Chicken lady]

I think the homemade gifts are hard ones.

I make pottery. So if I give you a bowl, it's because I thought you would like to have a bowl, specifically one that I made, and I think that this is a really good one.

So if you don't wan't it, I would want you to return it (or if you'd rather have a different bowl exchange it) but I might tell you the first part but I wouldn't tell you the second part because it makes the gift sound like a loan (which I guess is sort of the case, except if you want to keep the bowl forever or you use it until it gets broken, or even if you give it to someone else who loves it, great).

But then if someone gave me a painting for example i would feel awkward asking if they wanted it back because it would seem like I didn't appreciate the gift. (I think appreciating the gift is seperate from liking the gift.)

My mother in law is definitely a giver who is all about her. My aunt is mostly like that too. (except for some reason she is really good at gifting me - maybe we got off to a good start when I was 8 and told her " for my birthday present I want you to make my cake because your German chocolate is my favorite.). When my grandmother died my aunt was very insistent that everyone should get back the gifts they had given. She set a whole bunch of stuff aside for me and my mom kept asking "do you want this?" and I kept saying " no. I got that for her because I tought she would like it. If I wanted it, I would have gotten one for me."

I am finally at the point in my life where I tell people I'm a hoarder and often they say "no you aren't" or "well, you hide it really well."

[iris lilies]

On the subject of gifts:

Among the upper class only a generation or two ago, it was considered tacky for people other than family and very close friends to give wedding gifts. I think it's because the gifting thing was perceived to create an obligation. Also, it was rudely intrusive to burden the bride with objects for her home. Old family pieces like great aunt Clara's Monet painting or uncle George's Charles II sideboard would be appropriate.

[Ultralight]

On the subject of gifts:

Among the upper class only a generation or two ago, it was considered tacky for people other than family and very close friends to give wedding gifts. I think it's because the gifting thing was perceived to create an obligation. Also, it was rudely intrusive to burden the bride with objects for her home. Old family pieces like great aunt Clara's Monet painting or uncle George's Charles II sideboard would be appropriate.

Interesting info right there!


I mostly just feel like I have everything I need. So why would I want gifts? And why would anyone want to give me something when they know I have all I need?

So that "creating an obligation" thing you mentioned comes to mind.

Something else though, about gift-giving, that in some instances can be symptomatic of a particular emotional problem that gift givers have...
For instance, my dad knows darn well I am a minimalist and that I am dyed in the wool SLer. I have told him I have all I need. Though recently when I snapped my fishing pole, I mentioned buying a new one (for like $20) he simply gave me one of his. But this was an instance when I really needed something. And I was grateful!

Recently though he has begun giving me these little pins to stick on my fishing hat; they are pins that are shaped and painted like fish -- a trout or a bluegill, that sort of thing.

He gives me these things to show me he cares. But when I get it I think: "This is just a trinket. If you want to show me you care, why not go fishing with me?"

Or just be like: "Son, I care about you. I hope things are going good with you."

See the difference? I think that my father is emotionally stunted and cannot express himself outside material gifts. And I don't want these pins. As rough as I am on equipment and gear, that pin will get ripped off and/or fall in the water anyway. But that is beside the point. I am a minimalist and I do not need trinkets.

[Kestra]

On the subject of gifts:

Among the upper class only a generation or two ago, it was considered tacky for people other than family and very close friends to give wedding gifts. I think it's because the gifting thing was perceived to create an obligation. Also, it was rudely intrusive to burden the bride with objects for her home. Old family pieces like great aunt Clara's Monet painting or uncle George's Charles II sideboard would be appropriate.

It also makes sense as far as only people really close to you know what you actually want/need. I figure if you are struggling to determine what the best gift is for someone, then you shouldn't be giving them a gift. I rarely do gifts, but the couple I have given recently were very specific to that individual and their situation, and were also private in different ways, in that they wouldn't tell a regular friend about what I had given them.

[Ultralight]

It also makes sense as far as only people really close to you know what you actually want/need. I figure if you are struggling to determine what the best gift is for someone, then you shouldn't be giving them a gift. I rarely do gifts, but the couple I have given recently were very specific to that individual and their situation, and were also private in different ways, in that they wouldn't tell a regular friend about what I had given them.

My sis is getting hitched next month. I am performing the ceremony, so that is something of a gift. But...

I think I am going to give them some cash too, or maybe a gift certificate to their favorite Mexican restaurant.

[Kestra]

My sis is getting hitched next month. I am performing the ceremony, so that is something of a gift. But...

I think I am going to give them some cash too, or maybe a gift certificate to their favorite Mexican restaurant.

That's cool that you're doing the ceremony.

We gave my sister cash for her wedding as well - I don't know, I kind of thought I should think of something better - but everyone loves cash. (Later on I got her one of the specific private gifts I mentioned above.) And she got the gift of my presence, which is of course priceless... ;)


Actually, as her wedding was 1300 km away, it cost some money to get there. And for my own wedding, I paid for her to come as she was younger and broker then.

[Chicken lady]

When my mother got married, she recieved three sets of steak knives. She kept them all and two stayed in the sideboard, unopened. When I got married, she said " I have a set of steak knives for you, and a set for your brother. Which ones do you want? And I looked at them and said " honestly? The ones we use.". She said " great! Take them. I'll get new steak knives." And picked a box to open. I don't know If my brother took the third set. But that first set of steak knives has been in use for almost 50 years.

When we got married, we chose a set of relatively inexpensive everyday dishes, which then went on sale. Nearly all our friends got us a boxed set for four, because we were all young and broke. Dh and I kept three sets and returned the rest to get some serving pieces, sheets, and a vaccuum cleaner. But we thanked everybody for the dishes. Our parent's friends and our older relatives mostly gave us useless fancy decorative stuff. Except my great aunts - they gave us sleeping bags!

[ApatheticNoMore]

I will take money. If anyone wants to give me money, I will take it :) I will also take Amazon gift cards.

I want little and what I want is so peculiar sometimes anyway, that unless someone asks me: "what do you want?", they wouldn't know. And even then. Uh .... I'd like an old wooden recipe box to show up at the thrift store ... I could use one of those.

If mom really wants to get me something I will take jewelry as long as I can pick it out (I like necklaces mostly). Really though the days people who actually had more money than me, like parents, could get me gifts are long gone. Dad is dead, and he had Alzheimer's for maybe 7 years before then. My mom spends all her money on a loser doesn't work sibling and is headed for being broke. How I wish sometimes it was not so, and someone could gift me uh ..... financially! I wanna go back. But I have the problems of an adult on my head, and on my shoulders.


I figure if you are struggling to determine what the best gift is for someone, then you shouldn't be giving them a gift.

I agree with that.

[Ultralight]

When my mother got married, she recieved three sets of steak knives. She kept them all and two stayed in the sideboard, unopened. When I got married, she said " I have a set of steak knives for you, and a set for your brother. Which ones do you want? And I looked at them and said " honestly? The ones we use.". She said " great! Take them. I'll get new steak knives." And picked a box to open. I don't know If my brother took the third set. But that first set of steak knives has been in use for almost 50 years.

When we got married, we chose a set of relatively inexpensive everyday dishes, which then went on sale. Nearly all our friends got us a boxed set for four, because we were all young and broke. Dh and I kept three sets and returned the rest to get some serving pieces, sheets, and a vaccuum cleaner. But we thanked everybody for the dishes. Our parent's friends and our older relatives mostly gave us useless fancy decorative stuff. Except my great aunts - they gave us sleeping bags!


Great story about the steak knives! That is how I feel about so many things.

[Ultralight]

I will take money. If anyone wants to give me money, I will take it :) I will also take Amazon gift cards.

I want little and what I want is so peculiar sometimes anyway, that unless someone asks me: "what do you want?", they wouldn't know. And even then. Uh .... I'd like an old wooden recipe box to show up at the thrift store ... I could use one of those.

If mom really wants to get me something I will take jewelry as long as I can pick it out (I like necklaces mostly). Really though the days people who actually had more money than me, like parents, could get me gifts are long gone. Dad is dead, and he had Alzheimer's for maybe 7 years before then. My mom spends all her money on a loser doesn't work sibling and is headed for being broke. How I wish sometimes it was not so, and someone could gift me uh ..... financially! I wanna go back. But I have the problems of an adult on my head, and on my shoulders.




On my B-day my parents usually give me a couple hundred dollars. I always pay bills or throw it in my emergency fund. I am grateful for it. I guess I should say, while I have everything I need, I am always cool with more money for my savings/emergency fund.

[catherine]

I'm going to a wedding on Saturday--my cousin's daughter. I don't know her well AT ALL, but she's registered at Bloomingdale's and I noticed she picked a fine china pattern (I'm surprised brides are still doing that. I'm tempted to give her a place setting but OTOH,
a) I hardly use mine, so I hate to give her something that she'll come to learn she isn't going to use much either.
b) She's moving to NOLA in November, so why would I give her something fragile that she needs to move?

My husband says money is too impersonal and it's nice to give something people remember you by. So I'm thinking either a gift card to Bloomingdale's which she could use once she moves, or I'm also thinking of a gift certificate to a nice restaurant in New Orleans that maybe she and her husband would enjoy when they're exhausted from moving + a small unique household gift from a local artsy gift shop.

Or money.

[Ultralight]

I'm going to a wedding on Saturday--my cousin's daughter. I don't know her well AT ALL, but she's registered at Bloomingdale's and I noticed she picked a fine china pattern (I'm surprised brides are still doing that. I'm tempted to give her a place setting but OTOH,
a) I hardly use mine, so I hate to give her something that she'll come to learn she isn't going to use much either.
b) She's moving to NOLA in November, so why would I give her something fragile that she needs to move?

My husband says money is too impersonal and it's nice to give something people remember you by. So I'm thinking either a gift card to Bloomingdale's which she could use once she moves, or I'm also thinking of a gift certificate to a nice restaurant in New Orleans that maybe she and her husband would enjoy when they're exhausted from moving + a small unique household gift from a local artsy gift shop.

Or money.

I say give them money, impersonal as it is... It is still easier and most flexible for everyone involved! Just tell her: "I really care about you. So I want you do do something nice for yourself! Here is some cash!"

[iris lilies]

Yes, cash is great as a present, especially as they are moving.

[sweetana3]

Give money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have a wedding, honeymoon and a big move coming up. I guarantee it will be more useful than some trinket that they will not need, use, or keep and have to move or dispose of.

I have seen literally thousands of wedding presents in our years of garage sale shopping. Doesnt even matter if personalized.

[sweetana3]

The great steak knives we got as wedding presents were kept unused and many years later regifted to someone who ate steak.

[Ultralight]

The great steak knives we got as wedding presents were kept unused and many years later regifted to someone who ate steak.

Haha! I don't eat steak, but I find a steak knife is good to peel an mango with! :)

[Chicken lady]

Sometimes it's hard to be on both sides of the view.

I may have mentioned that my uncle is the most afflicted hoarder in the family? My grandfather owned a lot of property in my hometown. Much of it is now owned by my uncle and mother. My uncle can't seem to part with any of it. My grandparent's home has been on the market for two years (it's a minor miracle that mom got him to list it.).

The original asking price was absurd, but he has slowly come down, fighting all the way.

They finally have a serious offer. It's from a young family with ties in the area who apparently love the house just the way it is. (my grandmother had a distinct style.). After several days of back and forth, their final offer is $4,000 less than my uncle told my mom he would accept. He has to split it with my mom, so he is going to not sell the house over $2,000.

When I think of never going in that house again, it makes me sad. But I was there when we were cleaning it out and now I have mental pictures of the house as a staging area that are more recent than my memories of all the years my grandparents lived there, and I wish I didn't.

I kind of want to call and beg him to sell the house.

[Chicken lady]

He took the offer! My mom met with him this morning, and I don't know what she said, but he took the offer. She says not to uncross my fingers until the sale actually goes through, but I am just happy he agreed! I'm feeling really hopeful.

[iris lilies]

He took the offer! My mom met with him this morning, and I don't know what she said, but he took the offer. She says not to uncross my fingers until the sale actually goes through, but I am just happy he agreed! I'm feeling really hopeful.[/QUOTThat is great! I was going to say that if we're your mom, I'd cut my portion and give him the $4000. But likely he would not have wanted anyone to "steal" the place.

we are talking over on another site about true market value, and most people just are not realistic about it. The real estate company has carried that listing, investing money to market it, so I'm sure they are happy to get something from this deal.

[bae]

Here's another thing to consider about hoarding...

Fire/rescue people hate hoarder structures. They are insanely dangerous to operate in during a fire. The SOP when encountering a hoarder house is increasingly "everyone withdraw ASAP, we're going to protect nearby structures and let this house burn."

http://www.firerescue1.com/videos/originals/reality-training/17156267-Reality-Training-Attacking-a-heavy-fire-load-structure

[Ultralight]

Here's another thing to consider about hoarding...

Fire/rescue people hate hoarder structures. They are insanely dangerous to operate in during a fire. The SOP when encountering a hoarder house is increasingly "everyone withdraw ASAP, we're going to protect nearby structures and let this house burn."

http://www.firerescue1.com/videos/originals/reality-training/17156267-Reality-Training-Attacking-a-heavy-fire-load-structure

I check the news almost every day for news on compulsive hoarding. And almost every day there is a story or two about a hoarder whose house caught on fire. Fire fighters and the neighbors of the hoarder usually go on record with the media talking about what a fire hazard -- and public safety hazard -- these hoarded houses are.

This is something I worry about at my parents' house with the giant piles of mail, paperwork, and clothing all over the place. Couple that with the fact that my parents heat their house with those little propane tanks (yes, the ones most people attach to their grills in the summer) and you're talking major fire hazard... or worse.

[rodeosweetheart]

I check the news almost every day for news on compulsive hoarding. And almost every day there is a story or two about a hoarder whose house caught on fire. Fire fighters and the neighbors of the hoarder usually go on record with the media talking about what a fire hazard -- and public safety hazard -- these hoarded houses are.

This is something I worry about at my parents' house with the giant piles of mail, paperwork, and clothing all over the place. Couple that with the fact that my parents heat their house with those little propane tanks (yes, the ones most people attach to their grills in the summer) and you're talking major fire hazard... or worse.

Yes, it is so difficult to stay attached to parents who seem to us so self-destructive. I really admire you for staying connected and caring about them.

[freshstart]

I have had screaming matches with mom over papers that are truly meaningless (electric bills from late 80's, two houses ago) stored under her bed and all over the room. my dad keeps the important papers so all the papers she has could go right into recycling, I'm gonna tell her the firemen, for their own safety won't enter a hoarded room. That might help.

[bae]

I have had screaming matches with mom over papers that are truly meaningless (electric bills from late 80's, two houses ago) stored under her bed and all over the room. my dad keeps the important papers so all the papers she has could go right into recycling, I'm gonna tell her the firemen, for their own safety won't enter a hoarded room. That might help.

And note well that it's not just an issue for that room - the high fuel load in that room can quickly compromise the rest of the building and make it quite unsafe. (I mean, more unsafe than a burning building *normally* is.) It's fun when the floor collapses onto the people on the level below....

[Chicken lady]

Good luck freshstart.

Confession - I had to stop reading the missing stuff you got rid of thread. I was finding it painful. As in, it evoked a painful level of empathy for the people who were missing their stuff - most of whose personal discomfort levels were probably right up there with what i feel when I realize the cookies are gone... "oh drat, we're out of cookies, i really wanted one....moves on."


Today while I was at work, the construction guys moved some of my stuff so they could work. I actually manged to handle it with minimal discomfort - I looked at where the bins were before they moved them, looked at the bins, saw that everything was ok, and left it alone. I did not open the bins to check on them, or move them again, or feel a moment of panic or need to talk to dh about it. My brain just went "why are there two bins there? Oh, they had to swing a board though that space. They didn't hit the cabinet. Ok, I guess the bins are fine in their new space. I think I'll go see how much of the concrete forms are up..."


That is a big step for me.


And I am not going to worry about them (or you guys) judging me for having two bins labelled "baskets". I used to have 5 bins of baskets. And they weren't labelled either. Eventually I hope to have all the baskets in use, in cupboards, combined with the bins labeled "Easter", or gone. But that is one of those jobs I am picking at, so for now, when I need a basket, I know where they are. And I can handle people moving them.

[freshstart]

Good luck freshstart.

Confession - I had to stop reading the missing stuff you got rid of thread. I was finding it painful. As in, it evoked a painful level of empathy for the people who were missing their stuff - most of whose personal discomfort levels were probably right up there with what i feel when I realize the cookies are gone... "oh drat, we're out of cookies, i really wanted one....moves on."

And I am not going to worry about them (or you guys) judging me for having two bins labelled "baskets". I used to have 5 bins of baskets. And they weren't labelled either. Eventually I hope to have all the baskets in use, in cupboards, combined with the bins labeled "Easter", or gone. But that is one of those jobs I am picking at, so for now, when I need a basket, I know where they are. And I can handle people moving them.

Ack, I did not mean to do the above, I apologize. I'm in such a strange head place and am not my usual personality, I can't even explain it. And I so apologize for redundancy, I honestly do not remember what I said in which thread. Ah, I should start checking my account and check what I've already said.

no judgment zone on two baskets

[sweetana3]

Chicken lady, I am really impressed with your ability to work thru the issues however large or small they might be to anyone else. I could feel the difficulty you felt in your words.

[Chicken lady]

Oh freshstart, no big deal. I stopped reading. It's my responsibility.

I think in general a person should attempt to behave in ways that will not negatively impact a normal, reasonable human. And nothing you posted should be a problem for a normal, reaonable human! But there are areas in which I am not normal or reasonable, and I know that, and those are my issues to manage, not other people's (ok, I do put some of that on those close to me who should know better, but not the world in general)

Sweetana3, thank you.

[iris lilies]

Oh freshstart, no big deal. I stopped reading. It's my responsibility.

I think in general a person should attempt to behave in ways that will not negatively impact a normal, reasonable human. And nothing you posted should be a problem for a normal, reaonable human! But there are areas in which I am not normal or reasonable, and I know that, and those are my issues to manage, not other people's (ok, I do put some of that on those close to me who should know better, but not the world in general)

Sweetana3, thank you.

Let me add my kudos to you, too, Chickenlady. When you give details of your emotional reactions to, and thoughts about your stuff, it is fascinating. It really helps me understand a collector mentality. It's educational, thanks for adding to my knowledge base! Your story is NOT like the train wrecks pictured on TV reality shows, those are gawker fests.

Your strategies for dealing with this issue are fascinating and your self awareness is very cool.

My cousin, who I love very much, is a "neat and tidy" hoarder. He collects mostly paper products and in another life he would have been one of those college professors with an office piled high to the ceiling with journals and reports and papers. In real life he has stuff that doesn't exist elsewhere, and anyone who thinks it all resides on the web now lives in LaLa land, so I have some respect for some of his obscure items. He has paths through his house.

He was like that from the time he was a kid. His bedroom was tiny and he had things piled up to near the ceiling. He lived for more than a decade in a small one bedroom apartment, and though I never saw it, it was full of stuff. Then he moved to a far more spacious place and I fear what will happen to that place. But whatever, he can live the way he wants, it's not hurting anyone.

[Chicken lady]

I hate those shows, because they get the psychology right and they even explain it, but then they get all confrontational and in the hoarder's face with a camera because actually showing how you calmly and supportively helped a person make resonable progress is too slow and boring. And most of the time I want to yell at the family that they are hurting the person and making the actual problem worse even if the space is getting better.

Today they poured the foundation walls.

[Ultralight]

Interesting letter/article about a recovering hoarder and the holiday season we're apparently already in.

http://www.freep.com/story/life/advice/2015/10/23/ask-amy-hoarder-advice/73827846/

[Chicken lady]

Oh yes, the holiday season starts by October!

I quite understand the letter writer's position. I am "blessed" with a mother in law who feels that love is expressed through gifts every December. She has a special monetary formula for exactly how much it is appropriate to love each person on her list based on their degree of relation to her. Grandchildren may be loved by check once they enroll in a Post-high school educational program.

There is a carefully choreographed gift opening ceremony in which each participant must recieve, in addition to appropriate monetary value, an appropriate number of packages (so if one daughter in law has 12 gifts, each daughter in law must have twelve gifts.)

She is willing to buy me pretty much anything I ask for as long as it fits those criteria (although I have not tried requesting, say, a case of laundry soap) but she begins to be annoyed with me every August when she wants to have finished her shopping and I still have made no requests. She then begins e-mailing me photos of things she thinks I should want (almost never do). Last year I had to ask for three books I had planned to check out of the library. That was ok, because she expects you to get rid of non-reference books after you read them (why would anyone re-read a book?) and the bookstore gave me $5.

So far this year I have requested two large rubber buckets for the goats and a good stethoscope (also for the goats). If I can get close enough, she will fill in with fancy teas and chocolates.

[Ultralight]

An interesting form of hoarding... http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2015/10/26/the-agenda-gun-hoarder-stash-hides-thousands-of-stolen-guns-rental-rates-up-thousands-of-unregulated-dams

[Ultralight]

Also!

bae: Might be of interest to you, amigo.

http://michiganradio.org/post/how-firefighters-are-dealing-safety-challenges-hoarding#stream/0

[sylvia]

My dad is a hoarder and my mom the enabler, she also has OCD I think. The hoard is limited to the whole garage and my dads workroom which is the spare bedroom.I came to visit and walk in on the garage which is a source of shame stuff up to the ceiling of valuable antique clocks and furniture mixed with piles of boxes newspapers and receipts. I offered to help clean it out but my mom got upset to stop touching things and could decide my dad went to check the trash to see what was tossed out. I spent a few trips trying to toss out a few broken lamps and other people's broken things and hand me down furniture. I came out of a home thinking it was normal. When I got married we lived ina 3rd story 2 bedroom apartment with 2 kids under age 2 no storage one day I was taking an old picture out of the closet when the frame broke and the glass fell out almost on my crawling baby I stopped it with my knee and ended up getting stitches. That was the moment when I knew the clutter can kill me and hurt my kids. Then we moved to a house which we filled up with stuff. N ow I am trying to minimalise and enjoy our shrinking home with another baby and all the baby stuff. To finish the story my parents may have to sell thier home next spring of 25 years of hoarding and my mom suggested that I bring myself, my husband and teen sons to clear out their house of garbage. I answer no I will not clean your mess for you.

[freshstart]

To finish the story my parents may have to sell thier home next spring of 25 years of hoarding and my mom suggested that I bring myself, my husband and teen sons to clear out their house of garbage. I answer no I will not clean your mess for you.

how did she take that? it's good to know your boundaries.

With my mom, we have learned after 35 yrs of me trying to help her, even when I was just a kid, that we do not play well together with her hoarding. Although, when they got the biggest dumpster you can rent and filled it twice, I got great satisfaction out of heaving stuff in there.

[bae]

Also!

bae: Might be of interest to you, amigo.

http://michiganradio.org/post/how-firefighters-are-dealing-safety-challenges-hoarding#stream/0

Just saw this, thanks!

Around here, when we detect it is a hoarder-house and if fire conditions look bad, we go defensive, pull out, and protect surrounding exposures. It's simply too risky to be inside. Sucks to be the hoarder down inside, but we all want to go home at night.

Medical calls, I've had to take people out a window that I chainsawed into door size. Sucks to be their insurance company :-)

[Ultralight]

Just saw this, thanks!

Around here, when we detect it is a hoarder-house and if fire conditions look bad, we go defensive, pull out, and protect surrounding exposures. It's simply too risky to be inside. Sucks to be the hoarder down inside, but we all want to go home at night.

Medical calls, I've had to take people out a window that I chainsawed into door size. Sucks to be their insurance company :-)

At least you get them out!

[sylvia]

I am just angry at my parents for living like that, they make the mess and Im there to clean it out. I can help but not the metaphor of me being the community streetsweeper. The have a mardi gars party and Im there for the clean up. It feels degrading since they dont appreciate the "good" daughter that I am. While other parents have rude disrespectful adult children and they would do anything to count in their lives. The buck stops here and now.

[Chicken lady]

So Sylvia, are you going to stop helping them?

I think I mentioned that my uncle is he worst hoarder in my family? He took home so much stuff from my grandmother's estate! His house was already packed. My cousin and I are very close, and at one point, when he was loading things into his car that really should have been recycled, she grabbed my arm so hard it hurt and said "you're going to help me, right? I can't do this. I'm an only child!". I don't think I'm ever going to forget the look in her eyes.

My aunt recently rented a dumpster. My mom says he is putting things into it. My dad says "not very fast.". If feel bad for all of them because I understand all the sides. My cousin or ties that hr mom will leave. I doubt it. She's in her 70s, it's a very nice house, and there is a lot of money. Mostly my aunt has been getting him to travel a lot.

[Ultralight]

The buck stops here and now.

You need to consider your personal mental health. So making the buck stop is a good plan.

What resources are you turning to in order to get help stopping the buck?

[sylvia]

I think that they are starting to pick up cold shoulder undertones from me. I did explain to then what was my problem and why I feel what I do, So they are aware. Next whenever my mom complains about the hoard and having to move next year I suggest what my dad can do since he is the man of the house like get an auction company to appraise her things and that will bring her money. I am not offering to come down there anymore, I also dont want any of their stuff. They will have to deal with their own consequences. Yea thats easy to say we will just have to play it by ear.I wont be the good daughter anymore, just the daughter that lives far away like the rest of their friends have.It's something that just clicked in me, when my baby boy was born on my 40th birthday I felt complete and happy with this blessing and time to live my own life and its actually ok to be happy where you are not about when you get the house car and career etc.

[Ultralight]

It is very hard for me to understand my mom's hoarding. I just see "stuff" -- even my own stuff (perhaps especially my own stuff) and I feel it is unimportant or fairly easily substituted or just a tool.

She thinks all sorts of things are valuable or "worth something."


So for her and I to talk about anything related to stuff or materialism is just impossible.

[sylvia]

yea I can relate to that in my case I am an adult child of an alcoholic. We can discuss anything but "that". Recently "that" is causing her to forget our conversations and its almost like Alzheimer's is starting too. I always had a secret wish she would pick me instead of the bottle.

[Ultralight]

yea I can relate to that in my case I am an adult child of an alcoholic. We can discuss anything but "that". Recently "that" is causing her to forget our conversations and its almost like Alzheimer's is starting too. I always had a secret wish she would pick me instead of the bottle.

Doesn't it seem like picking you instead of the bottle is a "no-brainer?"

My sis and I feel this way about my mom and her hoard. To some degree we feel this was about my dad and his hoard too, but again, I really think my dad only hoards because my mom does it. Though I could be wrong.

My sis often laments along these lines: "I wish we just had a normal mom and dad, the kind you can have normal holidays with or who just looked and acted normal."

While this does not get at the heart of the issue it still makes a lot of sense as a lament.

For me I just cannot fathom how my mom cares more for her hoard than her kids or how the hoard is even in competition.

But I do have a few theories...

[freshstart]

((sylvia and UA))

I'll think I "get" my mom's hoard but in reality, I'm pissed because it has come between us and I never thought it would do that when she was rounding the last stretch. I thought time with us would be all she would want. But instead the perpetual anxiety about her hoard and the self-induced pressure to change 50 yrs worth of hoarding, now at her weakest when others must do it for her, well, I just hadn't counted on that still being an issue. That in dying she would transcend her worries about material things.

And we cannot talk about it without her immediately becoming angry and there being recriminations just like usual. Even when I am trying to talk differently about it than I did when she was well, coming at it from a different frame of mind. We say in hospice all the time, people usually die as they have lived. Yet I cannot accept that here. I want the Lifetime movie- hours spent just talking and reminiscing about the good old days, full of love, laughter and tears as I care for her. Not shrieked at by a harridan because I tidied a pile of paper falling over.

Last night, after I had helped her take her meds at 3am (she is OCD about meds, left to her own devices, she will spend an hour just to take one pill, many rituals), tucked her in and got her settled, I found out this morning, she got up and went down to the basement! I have no idea how the hell she managed this since getting to her own BR is a struggle and the two steps into the house take her forever. There are not enough lights down there and it feels to me like someone took what was semi-organized and threw it up in the air, letting it fall where it may. There are no longer safe pathways through the hoard. Last week, I tripped on a disgusting, huge, ancient carpet rolled up where the walkway was and I landed on a huge bag of loose lightbulbs. I amazingly did not get cut but what if that had been her? No one would hear her yelling for help. (she was pissed that the light bulbs are no longer, arghh.) Anyway, she had to find coffee cups and glasses because with my brother and his GF here, we had run out of room in the dishwasher for these items. Rather than letting us sensibly just wash what was left or break into the china cupboard, she went on a mission to find the extras in the basement. She could not find them, is pissed beyond belief that someone (that would be me) "moved them". Meanwhile everyone is shocked and upset that she even tried those stairs and her oxygen does not go that far. She doesn't get that part, it was all about that she could not find what she had to have. I became so sick of everyone talking about her stupidly dangerous foray into the hoard, I told my dad we are putting a child proof lock on that door, she is not going down there at 4 am alone again ever. I don't care if I am taking away her independence and separating her from the majority of her hoard.

I'm rambling but ITA it is painful and sucky when hoarding or alcoholism or pick your poison, becomes more important than you and your family. That the person is picking their vice over you, even if it's an illness and they can't help it. You can understand that on paper til the cows come home, IRL it blows.

[sylvia]

Yes freshstart thank you your sharing the reality. My parents are in their late 60's and 70's so one step away from the golden years.My mom is a breast cancer survivor and had to stop drinking during chemo. She sobered up but became very sad and kept talking about her childhood, how good it was like Shirley Temple good, cute dresses , princess lifestyle, youth and beauty. Now we know she feels better because she is drinking again, my dad too drinks away every nite after work. What goes on in their minds I dont know but at their worse they are the two crazies of "Who is afraid of Virginia Wolf" to the T.So dear freshstart you know what you need to do, keep your mom safe so you have a clear conscience. Maybe the hoard is what is keeping her going.I had an elderly friend she was terminal and she told me" I better get a move on clearing those piles of papers because I dont have much time". Im thinking if you are terminal go on a cruise or something special, not cleaning up.

[Chicken lady]

I am sorry you guys are struggling with this stuff.

I am feeling pretty good right now though. All my kids are home. We had "thanksgiving" dinner and used and enjoyed the good china. And burned the pretty candles. It was lovely!


While we were doing that the basement flooded again. I did go down and mop it up a little while people were doing dishes. But I am just over it. It is what it is and I will deal with it when the construction is tight. Meanwhile, stuff will just get wet and it will be ok or not.


Dd2 has been making yarn and buttons from the hoard into Christmas gifts for all of her friends. It has not taken me more than 5 minutes to find anyhing she has asked for.

[freshstart]

What goes on in their minds I dont know but at their worse they are the two crazies of "Who is afraid of Virginia Wolf" to the T.So dear freshstart you know what you need to do, keep your mom safe so you have a clear conscience. Maybe the hoard is what is keeping her going.I had an elderly friend she was terminal and she told me" I better get a move on clearing those piles of papers because I dont have much time". Im thinking if you are terminal go on a cruise or something special, not cleaning up.

thank you. Your situation sounds so hard. I really hope (although my teens think I already have ruined their lives, lol) I never project any major issues onto my kids that they have to carry through their entire lives unless they get good therapy. I know my mom did not choose to be this way, but she did choose to never get help for it.

[sylvia]

Yes, I wish they would want help or be like those recovering types that spend the rest of their lives making it up to people. We all want our parents to heal, which in turn helps us heal.

[Ultralight]

Yes, I wish they would want help or be like those recovering types that spend the rest of their lives making it up to people. We all want our parents to heal, which in turn helps us heal.

Heroin addiction has something like a 10% recovery rate, according to a documentary I watched last night. So 90% of addicts never kick.

So far -- though the research is new -- it is more likely for a junkie to kick heroin than it is for a hoarder to declutter.

[Chicken lady]

Well, to kick heroin, you have to not do something. To de-hoard, you have to do something. And you can completely avoid heroin (I have completely avoided heroin for 47 years - never seen any as far as I know.) but you cannot completely avoid stuff. Even Ultralightangler needs some stuff and it is everywhere.

I had serious IV drugs once. I was in labor. And never again. It was the most amazing rush. I am quite sure I could becomes junkie very easily. Alcoholism also runs in my family. I remember reading something once about "addictive personalities" and sometimes I wonder if all this stuff is intertwined genetically and it is only our environment that makes it be expressed differently.

Relating to the original topic - I am working on my studio again today and I have thrown out a lot of plastic stuff that can't be recycled. This is still hard for me, but not as hard as it used to be. There were a couple of plastic containers that came as packaging for store bought desserts and I saved them because I thought they might be useful as molds. I told myself right out loud "if you miss this mold, I give you permission to go to the store and buy another pudding cake and eat the whole thing.". And I was actually able to laugh.

Also, I know that it is not your intent, and I do really feel horrible for everyone who is dealing with this, but reading your words makes me feel good about my progress. I am in the top 10%! I can do this for my kids! I wish that your parents could also. I wish I knew how to help.

[Ultralight]

Well, to kick heroin, you have to not do something. To de-hoard, you have to do something. And you can completely avoid heroin (I have completely avoided heroin for 47 years - never seen any as far as I know.) but you cannot completely avoid stuff. Even Ultralightangler needs some stuff and it is everywhere.

I had serious IV drugs once. I was in labor. And never again. It was the most amazing rush. I am quite sure I could becomes junkie very easily. Alcoholism also runs in my family. I remember reading something once about "addictive personalities" and sometimes I wonder if all this stuff is intertwined genetically and it is only our environment that makes it be expressed differently.

Also, I know that it is not your intent, and I do really feel horrible for everyone who is dealing with this, but reading your words makes me feel good about my progress. I am in the top 10%! I can do this for my kids! I wish that your parents could also. I wish I knew how to help.

Several good points here.

I know I have an addictive personality, or at least it feels like it. This is why I am teetotal and straight edge. I am not taking any chances!

When I like something I get very, very intense about it. And even if I don't like something but I see much to be gained from it I still get very, very intense about it.
Fishing, Indian food, simple living, etc.


And kudos to you for doing this for your kids! It is a struggle, I'd bet.

[freshstart]

I had an addictive personality in regards to becoming very intense about certain things, certain topics. Political issues being one- actively campaigning, debating, discussing, pulling things apart with likeminded people or not likeminded people who were looking to debate. Literature, few vegan years, feminist agenda, gun control, etc. That's mostly gone with these brain changes. The feelings are less intense and I no longer wish to discuss anything in depth because I no longer really can and that becomes abundantly clear after a few sentences in. So I'm hoping with certain areas of "addiction", such as my mild hoarding of a few types of things, food issues, will dull as well. I may as well gain something from my dumbing down. It is very strange to lose the pit bull part of your personality, well, not lost but tamed.

I turned down xanax for years out of fear of addiction, during times it was desperately needed. I finally tried it and have been on it for years, not used daily, sometimes not used in a month. It sits in the bottle and I have zero addictive feelings towards it. I'm the same way with pain meds. Hmm, maybe I don't have an addictive personality, no, I do, just luckily not for harmful substances.

perfect example of being dumbed down, this post, lol

[sylvia]

I think I have a chocolate /sugar addiction and will get up sometimes at night for a bite which is very strange IMO. Been trying to kick that bad habit for years not to mock real drug addicts but it's hard.Just when I got over it Halloween comes around the corner I'm picking through my kid's candy.:( I cannot imagine Heroine -where people lose jobs and families, ultimately their lives. Tragic. Sadly relapse can be triggered by simple pain medecine.

[Chicken lady]

So yesterday I threw away a fancy plastic container that came with candy in it. It sat on my counter for six weeks after I ate the candy, because it just looked so interesting and potentially useful.

but here's the thing - while it was hard to throw it out, it wasn't emotionally hard to throw it out! When I finally made the decision, I didn't feel that flood of uncertainty and self-doubt. And when I put it in the trash can, there was no twinge of regret. Just a sense of a job done, like when I finish loading the dishwasher.

this is a big deal.

[Ultralight]

this is a big deal.

I believe you.

[freshstart]

I agree, big deal.

[Chicken lady]

I am feeling overwhelmed again. I picked dd2 up from college, and an entire stuffed carload of her belongings has now been added back to my full house.

also I am worried about her. She went thrift shopping repeatedly with friends the last two weeks of school "to get away from exam stress" and brought home an entire, huge black garbage bag full of shoes.

that is pretty classic - the hoarder feels stress, the hoarder acquires stuff, the hoarder feels better, even good! the rush wears off, the hoarder acquires more stuff....

the hoarder's college roommate gives the hoarder's mom a look of concern as they are trying to stuff all the hoarder's belongings into the car......

the black humor part of me is thinking "maybe I could get her to hoard earrings instead...."

but the ret of me is thinking, "we need to spend a bunch of time together this summer cleaning out this house" (behavior therapy)

[freshstart]

how is she with helping to clean out?

I have a funny shoe story with my mother. When I was about 14 and my family was in a better financial place, my mom and I went to the Talbot's Outlet. They were having $3 and $4 sale on shoes because the sizes were really small and came in narrow. Our size! We bought EIGHTY pairs of shoes that day. I could not believe my mother was letting me buy 40 pairs of shoes, I didn't see the hoarder component in this, I was just a teen who thought she had hit the motherload. The difference is I wore my shoes for years and years to come. She saved hers "for good" and by the time "good" came around her foot was no longer narrow. We laughed and told that story over the years but it really wasn't all that funny seeing as how she never wore hers.

[Chicken lady]

As far as the actual cleaning out, we make very little progress together, but the mental work of facing the mess and sorting through it and making decisions helps curb the urge to acquire and builds muscle for next time - so maybe we spend all afternoon, and everything is neater, and cleaner, and we got rid of one grocery bag of stuff. But later in the week, we encounter more opportunities for decision making, and another grocery bag of stuff drifts out as we go along. What is important is to continually refocus and move generally in the right direction.

[freshstart]

What is important is to continually refocus and move generally in the right direction.

that's right!

[Ultralight]

Hoarding has a genetic component. Some research shows that the problem has to do with defective chromosome 14.

[Chicken lady]

Yup. And I see it in my family, which is why it's so important to me to intervene early with this little chick of mine.

[Ultralight]

True confession. Fisherman will sometimes lose bobbers in tangles of trees. I saw one that I would usually use so I pulled it out and kept it. This happened two more times.

Then I thought: "Holy chit! Am I hoarding these bobbers?! I have more than I need and I keep picking them up..."

I had a dang anxiety attack.

[Chicken lady]

From here you were cleaning up the environment. Just pass the extra ones on.

you may worry too much about your genetics. Mayb you could get Estes for the hoarding gene?

[Ultralight]

Passing them on how? Asking people if they want them? Then if they don't want them, then what?

And that sounds like playing matchmaker -- match the used bobber to the fisherman. Playing matchmaker is often a hoarder activity.

If no one wants them then I either throw them away (so much for cleaning the environment) or I hoard them.

It is best for me to not travel down that road.

[Chicken lady]

Drop them at a donation box or a thrift store, or yes, offer them to another fisherman.

i'm hoping you cleaned up the line when you took the bobber, so even if you throw them out, that's better than bobber and line endangering wildlife.

playing matchmaker is also an environmental stewardship activity. In part it depends on motivation as well as amount of effort expended - if I walk an extra three feet to recycle my can instead of throwing it away, I am still "playing matchmaker" for best use.

i took three puzzles to work and gave them to a friend for her son - the extra effort was basically carrying the puzzles to the car instead of the recycling bin (8 ft) and then carrying them in to work (extra liar, no extra steps). The puzzles were reused, the kid got a surprise, and no money was spent. The fact that I'm a hoarder doesn't negate the benefits of that teansaction.

[Ultralight]

I am not saying playing matchmaker is always bad.

But I know of hoarders who store tons of things with the good intentions of finding just the right match for them.

And then when someone needs just that one special hard-to-find thing that only the hoarder has and they give it to the person, then it makes all the hoarding seem rational.

[Chicken lady]

Yep. And I agree with you.

honestly, one of the hardest things for me n the dehoarding has been that sometimes someone will ask me for something, and I got rid of it. It's really hard, like "I'm so sorry, I forgot to feed your dog" hard.

[Ultralight]

Yep. And I agree with you.

honestly, one of the hardest things for me n the dehoarding has been that sometimes someone will ask me for something, and I got rid of it. It's really hard, like "I'm so sorry, I forgot to feed your dog" hard.

I will admit that I simply cannot understand this.

I mean, this has happened to me before. I gave away something someone wanted later. I was just like: "Oh well...they can live without it or spend $30 on Amazon"

And someone has given away something I wanted before too, back in my pre-minimalist days. I just felt like: "Bummer. If it turns out I really, really want or need it then I will spring for it."

My mom often says she "loaned" things to me. I don't remember her ever loaning them to me or even giving them to me. But she will ask me about these items every time she sees me. We go through this annoying routine like this:

Mom: "Have you found the _______ I loaned you?"

Me: "I don't remember you loaning me anything like that."

Mom: "I did loan it to you! I want it back. It was your grandmother's!"

Me: "I have no idea what you are talking about."

Mom: "You do too!"

Me: "You may have misplaced it."

Mom: "Did you lose it?!"

On and on... Makes no sense.

[Chicken lady]

I don't know what's up its you and your mom on that. There are things I've loaned people because I'm happy for them to have them, but I'm not happy for them to get rid of them (I want this, but if you want it too, I want you to have it more than I want it.).

I'm afraid my brother forgot that that was the case with a particular toy we had as kids, and got rid of it, but I'm dealing with that by pretending he's still keeping it even though his youngest has outgrown it. I won't ask, because if he did get rid of it, I'll be sad.

i know that you don't get the level of regret I feel over not having an object for someone - it doesn't make sense. it's pathalogical.

dd is making good progress today. She went through a keeping bin and recycled a big stack of old schoolwork, and purged about a grocery bag of other stuff so far. Now she's putting away/sorting shoes and clothes. I'm suffering some vicarious stress about her stuff. I accepted the gift of a pair of boots and I may keep a little magnetic frog too.

[freshstart]

Passing them on how? Asking people if they want them? Then if they don't want them, then what?

And that sounds like playing matchmaker -- match the used bobber to the fisherman. Playing matchmaker is often a hoarder activity.

If no one wants them then I either throw them away (so much for cleaning the environment) or I hoard them.

It is best for me to not travel down that road.

would freecycle be so bad? or are they not worth even that level of keeping?

[Ultralight]

Welp... against my better judgement, and to save about $30 I have enabled my mom and dad in their hoarding.

I should have known better.

As I mentioned in another thread, I wanted to get a good-sized cast iron skillet. I knew they had a bunch they did not use. I figured I would get it from them and wash the holy heck out of it and it'd be totally usable.

So I called my mom and asked: "Hey, you happen to have a good-sized cast iron skillet floating around?"

She was like: "Oh yes, sure do! I think it is in the basement in a box maybe..."

Twas at that moment when I realized my mistake.
A few outcomes were/are possible:
1. She digs through the hoard and finds it quickly. Thus, having found just the item I really need, she can rationalize her hoarding.
2. She digs through the hoard and it takes her a few weeks or months to find it. She can still use this to justify her hoarding. But in the meantime I am without a cast iron skillet.
3. She digs through the hoard for a month or whatever and never finds it. So she buys me one. This wastes her money. And by then I will have probably given up waiting and bought one myself. Then I tell her I don't need the one she bought and then she adds it to the hoard.

[iris lilies]

Welp... against my better judgement, and to save about $30 I have enabled my mom and dad in their hoarding.

I should have known better.

As I mentioned in another thread, I wanted to get a good-sized cast iron skillet. I knew they had a bunch they did not use. I figured I would get it from them and wash the holy heck out of it and it'd be totally usable.

So I called my mom and asked: "Hey, you happen to have a good-sized cast iron skillet floating around?"

She was like: "Oh yes, sure do! I think it is in the basement in a box maybe..."

Twas at that moment when I realized my mistake.
A few outcomes were/are possible:
1. She digs through the hoard and finds it quickly. Thus, having found just the item I really need, she can rationalize her hoarding.
2. She digs through the hoard and it takes her a few weeks or months to find it. She can still use this to justify her hoarding. But in the meantime I am without a cast iron skillet.
3. She digs through the hoard for a month or whatever and never finds it. So she buys me one. This wastes her money. And by then I will have probably given up waiting and bought one myself. Then I tell her I don't need the one she bought and then she adds it to the hoard.
yeah, I can see where that may not end well. Maybe she will surprise you and deliver two iron skillets, a medium and a small, with a flourish! But you probably want just one. Bet you didnt think of that, you ending up with multiple skillets! Add that as point number 4.

[Ultralight]

Maybe she will surprise you

She rarely surprises.

[Geila]

Just call her back and tell her you found one at Goodwill for $2, bought it, and she no longer has to find one. And then buy yourself one, whatever the price is and pretend you spent $2 at Goodwill.

I bought a Lodge cast iron skillet, average size I guess, maybe 8-10", at a Hispanic market for like $8.99. I tried to use it and get with the whole cast iron thing but it did not take. I found it too heavy and kind of a hassle since I'm used to the 12" deep non-stick ones with a lid that Costco sells for around $20. I donated it to GW and it was pretty much new. Later I saw the same skillet at BedBadBeyond for about $30.

[Ultralight]

Just call her back and tell her you found one at Goodwill for $2, bought it, and she no longer has to find one. And then buy yourself one, whatever the price is and pretend you spent $2 at Goodwill.

Doing this tonight! :)

[Teacher Terry]

I saw an earlier post by someone saying that if they give something away the other person can't choose to get rid of it later. Once something is gone it is no longer yours. I think the want it back mentality contributes to hoarding.UL: it looks like you have a good solution. I tell my kids if they need something ask before they buy it but unlike your Mom I know if I have it and where it is. Although, with my constant downsizing I have less extras of things.

[jp1]

I saw an earlier post by someone saying that if they give something away the other person can't choose to get rid of it later.

If I were the giver of something that I didn't want the receiver to ever dispose of I would tell the receiver "if you ever decide you don't need or want this anymore please return it to me." An example being something like a family heirloom. Otherwise, once I've given it away, that item is no longer under my control and the receiver should do with it what they will.

[Ultralight]

If I were the giver of something that I didn't want the receiver to ever dispose of I would tell the receiver "if you ever decide you don't need or want this anymore please return it to me." An example being something like a family heirloom. Otherwise, once I've given it away, that item is no longer under my control and the receiver should do with it what they will.

This is idealistic. You probably feel and operate this way. I doubt many other people do though, especially hoarders.

[Tammy]

I actually think that most people don't expect something back when they give it away. From my life experience ...

[Chicken lady]

Ultralite, even with me, it's a mix. My ds called me about every single thing I'd sent him to college with when he was packing for Wisconsin. And I appreciated it. But really, all I wanted back were the pillow a family member needle pointed and a couple of useful things, that if he'd never asked, I'd have forgotten. And actually he kept the useful things, and probably will discard them if he leaves Wisconsin on his own dime because they'll be easier to replace than move - the company packed and moved him this time. And I'm fine with that.

[Ultralight]

Just call her back and tell her you found one at Goodwill for $2, bought it, and she no longer has to find one. And then buy yourself one, whatever the price is and pretend you spent $2 at Goodwill.

I white lied them. I just told them I stopped at a yard sale on my ride home from work. I said I got a cast iron skillet and a some silverware for a few bucks. They believed the lie. :)

[jp1]

This is idealistic. You probably feel and operate this way. I doubt many other people do though, especially hoarders.

Thankfully I don't know any hoarders. At least not any of my close friends/relatives. If this was the expectation I would simply decline everything. I'm no minimalist (I have no idea how many things I have but it's way more than 150) but I'm also not a hoarder. As things stop being useful or lovely I'm fine with ditching them by whatever way I can, hopefully through gifting or at least recycling, free craigslisting, etc. Anything I would give away is not something I care about. If I actually care about something it is not likely I'll give away. My high school yearbooks come to mind. I could certainly go on with life if they were gone, but when the big earthquake comes they will be one of the things I will most miss if this building and its contents gets destroyed. And when I finally create a will (yes, I know I need to stop procrastinating and just get this done) those yearbooks will be left to the denver public library. I remember going there as a teenager and spending hours looking through the yearbooks from my high school from back in the teens and twenties. Perhaps decades from now someone would find it interesting to look through yearbooks from the 1980's. I can't imagine why, but then I'm sure the kids from the 1920's couldn't have imagined what I would find interesting in their yearbooks.

[Ultralight]

Thankfully I don't know any hoarders. At least not any of my close friends/relatives. If this was the expectation I would simply decline everything. I'm no minimalist (I have no idea how many things I have but it's way more than 150) but I'm also not a hoarder. As things stop being useful or lovely I'm fine with ditching them by whatever way I can, hopefully through gifting or at least recycling, free craigslisting, etc. Anything I would give away is not something I care about. If I actually care about something it is not likely I'll give away. My high school yearbooks come to mind. I could certainly go on with life if they were gone, but when the big earthquake comes they will be one of the things I will most miss if this building and its contents gets destroyed. And when I finally create a will (yes, I know I need to stop procrastinating and just get this done) those yearbooks will be left to the denver public library. I remember going there as a teenager and spending hours looking through the yearbooks from my high school from back in the teens and twenties. Perhaps decades from now someone would find it interesting to look through yearbooks from the 1980's. I can't imagine why, but then I'm sure the kids from the 1920's couldn't have imagined what I would find interesting in their yearbooks.

About 1 in 20 people is a compulsive hoarder. You know plenty of them, I am sure.

Some are clever at hiding it.

[jp1]

About 1 in 20 people is a compulsive hoarder. You know plenty of them, I am sure.

Some are clever at hiding it.

You are undoubtedly correct. My first bf was definitely one. Thankfully he was also compulsively neat. But i'll never forget the shock the movers felt when they showed up at his studio apartment, commenting that some people's 3 bedroom houses had less stuff.

[Chicken lady]

So, lately I've been trying to get rid of something every day, and I'm doing a much better job throwing things out!

empty plastic food containers, used bailing twine, cheap plastic hangers that came with clothes, the empty feed bags, and I'm feeling a lot less stress about it.

i even managed to take two trash cans dh filled while working on the addition up to the road without checking them for wood or metal.

[Ultralight]

So, lately I've been trying to get rid of something every day, and I'm doing a much better job throwing things out!

Excellent!

[Chicken lady]

Also, because things tend to come in one one side even while going out the other, the "every day" thing has to be something I already had when I started this in May. So, now that I have thrown out all the feed bags, throwing out feed bags doesn't count - it's just maintainence, like throwing away a used tissue. (Unless I am cleaning out some remote corner of the barn and find more feed bags - those would count.)

i am am still collecting dolls. Dh says it may be getting out of hand. And I bought a new pair of shoes, but it's a pair I've wanted for about a year and I threw away an old, worn out pair of shoes.


On on the dolls - I have started trying to be more disciplined about it - I've been watching some that I like on ebay expire or sell without bidding and being mindful of how I feel and how I feel later, and how many of them. I can actually remember after a couple of weeks - almost none. I should probably stop looking, but there are about six specific ones I'm still looking for, and I think the current process (watch and reflect) is helpful. I also think it would help if I got my house to a point where I could put all the dolls out again and really see how many there are.

[Ultralight]

Also, because things tend to come in one one side even while going out the other, the "every day" thing has to be something I already had when I started this in May. So, now that I have thrown out all the feed bags, throwing out feed bags doesn't count - it's just maintainence, like throwing away a used tissue. (Unless I am cleaning out some remote corner of the barn and find more feed bags - those would count.)

i am am still collecting dolls. Dh says it may be getting out of hand. And I bought a new pair of shoes, but it's a pair I've wanted for about a year and I threw away an old, worn out pair of shoes.


On on the dolls - I have started trying to be more disciplined about it - I've been watching some that I like on ebay expire or sell without bidding and being mindful of how I feel and how I feel later, and how many of them. I can actually remember after a couple of weeks - almost none. I should probably stop looking, but there are about six specific ones I'm still looking for, and I think the current process (watch and reflect) is helpful. I also think it would help if I got my house to a point where I could put all the dolls out again and really see how many there are.

It sounds like you are really working at this.

About the dolls, what happens if you don't get those other six dolls?

And what happens if you do get the other six dolls?

[sweetana3]

It is possible but really hard to change a hoarder outlook. I have spent years acquiring fabric for my quilting obsession. It finally hit me that I was using things I did not like because I got them cheap or free. They were taking up space and keeping me from using really nice things that were buried. There will always be more fabric.

So I stopped accepting free things, stopped cold turkey going to garage sales, estate sales and watching ebay. I will use what I have and be satisfied with it. I will give some away (and have) to our guild.

I have at various times in the past 40 years acquired too many books, cat collectibles, Fiestaware, patterns, etc. It is a learning process figuring out why I did this and how to stop it. Did not help that husband enjoyed shopping for ebay items. Thankfully this is over.

My mantra now is more out than in and no shopping.

[Ultralight]

It is possible but really hard to change a hoarder outlook. I have spent years acquiring fabric for my quilting obsession. It finally hit me that I was using things I did not like because I got them cheap or free. They were taking up space and keeping me from using really nice things that were buried. There will always be more fabric.

So I stopped accepting free things, stopped cold turkey going to garage sales, estate sales and watching ebay. I will use what I have and be satisfied with it. I will give some away (and have) to our guild.

I have at various times in the past 40 years acquired too many books, cat collectibles, Fiestaware, patterns, etc. It is a learning process figuring out why I did this and how to stop it. Did not help that husband enjoyed shopping for ebay items. Thankfully this is over.

My mantra now is more out than in and no shopping.

If you indeed were a compulsive hoarder and you beat it, then you are the rarest of exceptions. Kudos to you!

[Chicken lady]

Ideally, if I don't get the other six dolls, I will recondition myself not to spontaneously acquire things and I will enjoy the hunt indefinitely. Practically, I will probably buy more dolls I "didn't know I wanted" or move on to acquiring something else (but I'm trying hard to stop that)

if if I do get them, I will enjoy having them, and I may stop looking, in which case, return to the end of the previous paragraph.

being able to actually state the above, is a big step. Five years ago I would have been telling myself (and others) I'm just going to look for these six. I'm not going to buy anything else." Which was a lie and not helpful.

i'm not better. I'm getting better.

Btw, the used tissue example? It took me several minutes to think of something that was normal and ok to throw out.

[Ultralight]

Used tissue example?


I recently met a couple. I know one is a hoarder. I strongly suspect the other is too, though she might be what I call a "hoarder-by-proxy."

They said they are "curbside shoppers." The HbP said she "really enjoys the hunt!" and got a gleam in her eye. The for-sure hoarder said he likes to get something most consider junk and then turn it into something useful and he likes a never ending stream of projects, though he does not complete all of them. He also said he collects so, so many books and records and so forth. And that he has to dig through clutter to get them.

They are being pressured by their kids to de-hoard their place. I think the kids are pressuring hard because they are unaware that their parents (at least one anyway) are compulsive hoarders.

[Chicken lady]

When I said throwing out the feed bags now is like throwing out used tissues. There is not really a space in my brain for "trash".

[Ultralight]

When I said throwing out the feed bags now is like throwing out used tissues. There is not really a space in my brain for "trash".

Okay, I see what you meant.

What do you think of the hoarder-by-proxy thing?

This is what I think my dad is. Like, he would not hoard if he were not with my mom.

[RoseQuartz]

.

[Ultralight]

This last weekend I bought sheets for my bed. I only have one other set and they are flannel so it was a welcome purchase, however the sheets came in a rectangular sleeve with gussets, a fabric container of sorts with a velcro fastener. When I was putting them into the washer I was freeing them from this self-fabric bag and my mind was churning, and I felt a little bit stressed out. My instinct was "throw that sucker away", but the OCD kicked in and for some dumb reason the decision became full of worry. Should I repurpose it? Should I find someone who wants it?

I thought about you guys in here and the whole process of having enough stuff, and the maintenance of making sure you don't have too much stuff, or dumb stuff. I don't like shopping, and I'm a quilter but don't buy fabric unless I'm actively working on a quilt. I don't yard sale (hate them actually...) or scan curbs, but sometimes this little stuff makes me feel guilty. I feel guilty that I bought sheets in a fabric bag that I am going to throw out. And I am throwing it out. Right now.

I guess I doubt myself and I know hoarding has an OCD element and the worry that I'm one major life stressor away from snapping and becoming a hoarder freaks me out, because it seems like that is what triggers a lot of hoarders- though many are just kind of born that way. Ok, off to throw away the sheet thingy.

There is a strong genetic component to hoarding. The research has zeroed in on chromosome 14. They don't know details yet, but they think that might well be the source of the genetic problem in hoarding.

Most hoarders do some hoarding when they are kids, in their teens. And then it gets worse with time.

But you are right: There is a trigger.

This is usually some traumatic event.

Often people -- even hoarders themselves -- with rationalize their condition by saying: "I grew up poor."

But being deprived or growing up in poverty has shown to have no relation to hoarding later in life. What does happen is that trigger moment. Most hoarders have one -- death of a loved one, abandonment by someone, a diagnosis, etc.

[Ultralight]

I thought about you guys in here and the whole process of having enough stuff, and the maintenance of making sure you don't have too much stuff, or dumb stuff.

Being a minimalist makes the whole process of having enough stuff and the maintenance of making sure you don't have too much stuff, or dumb stuff for that matter, much easier and less time consuming.

The issue is awareness. People who are all like "I ain't counting my stuff!" or "Paying all the attention to stuff is a waste of time!" do not realize a very important fact.

They do have to pay attention to and deal with their stuff even if they don't count it. But as minimalist you:

-Pay attention to the time all that stuff takes
-Then you "clock in" and deal with it all
-Once you have dealt with it and totally minimized then you clock out
-From then on, you clock in here and there to do maintenance; but you put in very few hours

The Stuffified people deal with the stuff in different ways -- like not inviting people over because the place is a mess or they trip over stuff or they lose things and spend tons of time searching or they waste countless hours cleaning useless stuff or rearranging it or "organizing" stuff (code for "well-planned hoarding").

So when The Stuffified get smug and say: "I am not wasting my time counting stuff or doing your silly-right sizing or whatever" I just think:

"Ooooookay... waste your time -- and a lot more of it -- with all that stuff."

I'd like to audit the time use of minimalists vs. maximalists.

Though I doubt any maximalists would submit to such an audit because under the surface...they know. They know.

[iris lily]

15961597

Since we are talking about pulling thngs in from the alley amnd making them better, here are two alleynfnds
I updated. I painted cherries on the chair and now it really pops! I put lants in the little planter and while,they are not mature,mits still,a cute little thing. Both are going to a sidewalk sale tomorrow that benefits our park.

[RoseQuartz]

.

[iris lilies]

When I said throwing out the feed bags now is like throwing out used tissues. There is not really a space in my brain for "trash".
That is very interesting, and they way you describe these hoading issues is fascinatng.

re:collections. For some reason I am lucky and
I usually know when a collection is done. In all past times these collections have been ones that I spend a few years to gather. Perhaps I tire of the activity, perhaps I really am "done" but I do stop at some point.


In the back of my brain I have the word "representative" rather than "comprehensive." I collect a representatice sample of what I like, not a comprehensive group. With my collection of Victorian flow blue Chna, my goal was to collect pretty patterns I like, and not try to collect an entire set of one pattern. Then later
I refined the goal to collecting abstract patterns of late Victorian period.I found that I am not attracted to the Chinoise and floral patterns as much as the abstract ones, unless the floral are very "modern" (i.e. 1890's and later.)

With my book collection I focused on illustrated children's books with a fantasy theme. But the artist's work really had to,speak to me. So, this was a representative collection. But i had an obsession with fairies which were a very popular subject for children's books during the golden age of illustration, 1880-1920, so I was a bit "comprehensive" on that topic to the extent that I could afford it.

but one day I was done. There is one elusive fairy book I would still like to,have, but I dont know the name of it, something like Fairy annual. i saw it in a bookstore on Champaign IL. I still think about that book. :)

[RoseQuartz]

.

[Chicken lady]

RoseQuartz, the mental processes you describe are very much a part of hoarding. I found myself nodding. Short circuiting or overcoming those thoughts is really hard.

the "trigger" thing, I don't know. It seems like I have always been this way. I can't think of anything that would really qualify as a "trigger" - birth trauma? - lol!

when I am collecting something, the theme is pretty much always "stuff I like."

ultralite angler, I would totally submit to a study of how I spend my time in relation to stuff as long as the researcher promises to share the results but not any opinions.

as far as "hoarder by proxy" I think it is a term that works for you as a description of a situation. From this side of the experience, I guess I would just say, would you call someone who drinks a lot socially an "alcoholic by proxy" if they did it because they were married to an alcoholic and so were put in a lot of social situations where a lot of drinking was normative? I'd say "A is an alcoholic, but B is a heavy drinker" there are a lot of other issues involved.

[Ultralight]

I often think of my deceased ex-MIL, she was a very bad hoarder. She had a lot of repressed anger and it manifested in controlling things rather than dealing with people. All of her dusty and broken garbage was priceless and "worth a lot of money". When she died no one wanted to go through her crap and the family property and home were left in ruin and the bank took it. It was so devastating and emotionally sad to even be on the property that everyone just dissipated in all directions.

Tragic story with a fairly common main character/plot. When hoarders say things like "This stuff if priceless" or "This will be worth a lot of money someday!" I just want to cry. It is so sad and delusional. My grandma says it. My mom says it.


I don't collect anything. And my ex-MIL is the reason. I lost all love for anything that needs dusting after seeing the madness and anger in her house.

I tried collecting things as a kid, baseball cards (I did not like baseball) and comic books (I did not like them that much, the plots were boresville), and other things here or there as people encouraged me. But I got bored with it. Though I used to have a major hobby hoarding problem, but I figured out a couple ways to kick that habit!


Part of my time in college was spent studying hoarding. I find it very fascinating and I do understand attaching to things rather than people. In my childhood through my early 20's I was acutely attached to items because people were terrifying due to the severe domestic violence and abuse I witnessed in my house. And the behavior of my primary caregivers was so erratic and ever changing. I had to work hard to stop that habit.

I understand why people attach to stuff rather than people, or even the more tragic and rage-inducing scenario -- when people attach to animals more than people and then they hoard animals. But while I understand it, I just don't feel it. While people frustrate me and I do like most dogs more than I like most people, I still just can't connect with stuff the why hoarders do. Nor would I want to if I could. haha


I had an odd attachment to receipts. An example, I had a friend die suddenly very young and I had gone to the store the day that he died. I kept the receipt because in my mind throwing away the receipt was throwing away the memory and throwing away the memory was throwing away my friend. And I think I engaged in a bit of magical thinking, like if I kept the items I could somehow go back and make a better outcome.

Perhaps if you had a genetic disposition to hoarding then you'd have had your trigger moment and started hoarding like a champ! But luckily you don't appear to be a hoarder. Maybe you have a symptom or two, as many people do. But it seems to take more of a constellation of symptoms to get the hoarding ball a-rolling.


I grew up poor, but I feel that made me a stronger natural minimalist. I never had much, and it is proof I didn't need much. Having too much stuff has always made me feel greedy and wasteful. You can only wear/use so many things.

I grew up poor too, but if I say that around my mom she will have one of her endless fits where she fixates on it and won't stop until I tell her what she wants to hear, and then she still won't stop most of the time. haha

I just always valued free time more than stuff.


Reading and discussing this stuff makes me even more motivated to pitch (recycle/donate/toss ahem....) more stuff. :)

Reading much of this stuff makes me glad I am a minimalist. But my heart goes out to the hoarders trying to overcome and even more so to the children of hoarders. Hoarding just so often destroys relationships.

[Ultralight]

the "trigger" thing, I don't know. It seems like I have always been this way. I can't think of anything that would really qualify as a "trigger" - birth trauma? - lol!

It is hard to say for sure if you did or did not have a trigger. The research just shows that an overwhelming number of hoarders appear to have a trigger moment. Though I often point out that minimalists have a trigger moment too, or perhaps a series of them and that cascade ends up with them simplifying.


when I am collecting something, the theme is pretty much always "stuff I like."

This I can't quite understand. "Stuff I like." Tell me more.


ultralite angler, I would totally submit to a study of how I spend my time in relation to stuff as long as the researcher promises to share the results but not any opinions.

What a study that would be!


as far as "hoarder by proxy" I think it is a term that works for you as a description of a situation. From this side of the experience, I guess I would just say, would you call someone who drinks a lot socially an "alcoholic by proxy" if they did it because they were married to an alcoholic and so were put in a lot of social situations where a lot of drinking was normative? I'd say "A is an alcoholic, but B is a heavy drinker" there are a lot of other issues involved.

Heck of a good question in there. I will mull that over.

[Ultralight]

Chicken Lady:

Can I ask a really, really tough question?

[RoseQuartz]

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[RoseQuartz]

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[Geila]

When I was going thru the stuff in our garage, I realized that dh and I do have some hoarding tendencies around specific items. For me it's textiles. Linens and fabrics for the sewing projects that I continue to believe I will complete some day (soon). This morning it hit me that maybe part of the issue is that my mother was an amazing self-taught artist. She could create some pretty amazing things across several mediums, whichever were available to her, and sewing was one of them. Unfortunately, she was not a generous or loving woman and she never shared her talents or skills with her kids. In fact, I tried my hand at sewing when I was in high school and I remember her laughing and ridiculing my one and only attempt.

Now I have this notion that I should be able to create things I want but part of me still has that emotional fear of... something...(failing? being humiliated? realizing I suck? fear of the pain of being inadequate?)

I want to try, but I'm afraid to try. So I keep several plastic bins full of fabrics that I imagine will become great looking projects some day. I don't know if it would be healthier for me to just chuck everything and realize that I can buy anything I need pretty cheaply at Ross, and be done with it. Or if I should face the fear and stumble my way through learning the ways of sewing.

Now dh has a thing for all things related to building things which I guess is common enough but he also has this thing about wanting to save every last container. Jars, tins, boxes, bottles and bags are stuffed into his designated garage wall. I respect his things and I won't touch them, but all that stuff does give me the tight claustrophobic feeling when I look at it. I think for him it's a throwback to growing up in deprivation and need - the idea of throwing out these things is emotionally hard for him.

[Ultralight]

...when she likes something she buys it and displays it.

This is THE distinction between hoarder and collector, as I am sure you know.


Hoarding I think must contain some sort of strong emotion toward the items to be true hoarding and a true issue within the mind. My friend doesn't understand why I refuse to collect and why I keep my items way down. The mind chatter I get over items is enough to keep me from letting much in my house.

Hoarding is broken into groups by some researchers. For instance, there is sentimental hoarding. People attach emotion to an item and can't let go. There is also instrumental hoarding. People cannot toss something because they swear it is useful!


I think I am mentally at risk of a triggering event causing me to hoard in earnest. I've always just had a sixth sense that I could easily end up that way due to a mix of strong introversion, and a stubborn refusal to appear needy and ask for help for anything ever.

You could be at risk. But remember this, perhaps this could even scare you straight, once you become a hoarder your odds of ever overcoming it are so incredibly unlikely. You have much better odds of getting hooked on heroin and kicking it than you do getting hooked on hoarding and kicking it.

[RoseQuartz]

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[Ultralight]

When I was going thru the stuff in our garage, I realized that dh and I do have some hoarding tendencies around specific items. For me it's textiles. Linens and fabrics for the sewing projects that I continue to believe I will complete some day (soon). This morning it hit me that maybe part of the issue is that my mother was an amazing self-taught artist. She could create some pretty amazing things across several mediums, whichever were available to her, and sewing was one of them. Unfortunately, she was not a generous or loving woman and she never shared her talents or skills with her kids. In fact, I tried my hand at sewing when I was in high school and I remember her laughing and ridiculing my one and only attempt.

So you might want to know, hoarders are often creative types -- artists and crafters. If you have this trait, and a handful of other hoarder traits... that is probably not a good combo. I will also say this: Having a mom like you describe is another factor that could trigger people to hoard. A detached or neglectful or just plain mean parent can make a child more connected to possessions than people.


Now I have this notion that I should be able to create things I want but part of me still has that emotional fear of... something...(failing? being humiliated? realizing I suck? fear of the pain of being inadequate?)

I have failed at numerous things I tried. I put lots of time and resources into things and failed. I can assure you that you will come out mostly okay. Another possible outcome is that you will be mediocre. For instance, I learned to fish like a champ. I am a fishing success. I attempted to learn to hunt waterfowl. I was not very good at it -- using the calls was hard, really hard for me. There were other parts of it I was not good at either. But in 2015 I decided to learn to dance. I can do a handful of moves, but nothing too fancy. Just enough to blend in on a dancefloor -- so I am mediocre. How would you feel about just being mediocre?


I want to try, but I'm afraid to try. So I keep several plastic bins full of fabrics that I imagine will become great looking projects some day. I don't know if it would be healthier for me to just chuck everything and realize that I can buy anything I need pretty cheaply at Ross, and be done with it. Or if I should face the fear and stumble my way through learning the ways of sewing.

What other hobbies and interests do you have?


Now dh has a thing for all things related to building things which I guess is common enough but he also has this thing about wanting to save every last container. Jars, tins, boxes, bottles and bags are stuffed into his designated garage wall. I respect his things and I won't touch them, but all that stuff does give me the tight claustrophobic feeling when I look at it. I think for him it's a throwback to growing up in deprivation and need - the idea of throwing out these things is emotionally hard for him.

This sounds like instrumental hoarding. It is important to reconsider the rationalization that this is a result of your husband's deprivation growing up. There is no evidence so far in the research of hoarding -- no correlation or causation -- regarding deprivation and hoarding. Your husband may just have the mental illness of compulsive hoarding.

And if he does... then you have some tough questions to ask and answer yourself.

[Ultralight]

... knowing a person is less likely to kick hoarding than heroin is very disturbing.

I have some friends who are social workers and therapists and such. And when I point this out they are very dubious. But then if they go and do the research they are like: "Oh, he wasn't making this up." haha

[RoseQuartz]

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[Ultralight]

Oh I believe it. I think it's similar to losing weight in that it's very hard. Because you can't totally avoid stuff or food. You can structure your life to totally avoid heroin.

Yup.

But what about this...

You cannot avoid food. You have to eat it. But can you avoid, let's say, cupcakes? Like... you eat carrots, tuna, apples, etc. but you totally and completely avoid cupcakes.

I wonder if a hoarder could think to themselves: "I have a problem hoarding ___________. So while I have other stuff, my shoes, my silverware, etc. I simply will not keep any more __________ or acquire anymore __________!"

And that cuts down on the hoarding? I doubt that would ever stick. But it is a thought.

[RoseQuartz]

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[Ultralight]

It is a thought, but by avoid I meant like not having it thrust into your field of vision at all to be tempted. Avoiding cupcakes would work if you didn't need anything from the baked goods section of the grocery store and averted your eyes at the end caps where the vile Little Debbies and cheap confections hang out. Now I want a cupcake.:thankyou:

My thought on recovering hoarders is this:

Until there is a magic pill invented by the big drug companies (that certainly will have plenty of nasty side-effects) hoarding is a problem that will have to be policed either with a "harm reduction" strategy or by removing the person's hoard and then providing them with around the clock supervision.

[ApatheticNoMore]

maybe i'll do that compact thing for a year, but i'd buy something first :laff:.

I'd probably exclude clothes, if you do that people assume it's because your a clothes horse, but it's actually because i'm the opposite, i hate clothes shopping and have a tendency to get down to a total of 3 shirts i wear at times or something, so i'm not even keeping up with minimal social norms of having even a weeks worth of clothes at that point, so i think i need to force myself to at least keep up to those types of norms (hey i'm not living in a cave).

I don't think i'm a hoarder, i am messy though. but i did get kicked into slightly more materialistic behavior than my VERY unmaterialistic behavior before, by the trauma i found job hunting to be - i had to take a break from it for awhile too as i was near a breakdown. Deaths didn't even trigger me into collecting or anything, i just mourned, but you can't exactly mourn the stresses of job hunting - so at a certain point I had no resources left to deal with the ever mounting anxiety. I'm employed of course, I just need to get something better, but easily get overwhelmed.

[Ultralight]

maybe i'll do that compact thing for a year, but i'd buy something first :laff:.

The Compact is so friggin' cool! I want to do it.


I'd probably exclude clothes, if you do that people assume it's because your a clothes horse, but it's actually because i'm the opposite, i hate clothes shopping and have a tendency to get down to a total of 3 shirts i wear at times or something, so i'm not even keeping up with minimal social norms of having even a weeks worth of clothes at that point, so i think i need to force myself to at least keep up to those types of norms (hey i'm not living in a cave).

I dislike shopping across the board. Grocery shopping is tolerable. Clothes shopping is a nightmare.


I don't think i'm a hoarder, i am messy though. but i did get kicked into slightly more materialistic behavior than my very unmaterialistic behavior before, by the trauma i found job hunting to be - i had to take a break from it for awhile too as i was near a breakdown. deaths didn't even trigger me into collecting or anything, i just mourned, but you can't exactly mourn the stresses of job hunting - so you can have no way to deal with the anxiety.

I am "messy" in a way too. And this can be just one symptom of hoarding -- you tend to organize things horizontally rather than vertically.

I put stuff on flat surfaces -- counters, coffee tables, etc. This way I can see it.

This is very common among hoarders. My mom does this. My dad does this. I do it. My sister does not! Which I am glad to know.

But by being a minimalist I have few enough things that being messy and/or putting things on surfaces instead of "away" takes like 5 minutes of clean up.

A hoarder would let this stuff pile up because they acquire more and more. Then wham! Hoardsville.

[RoseQuartz]

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[iris lilies]

Well, SURE it is easier to see thngs when they are all spread out on a flat surface. That also makes it impossible to clean.

[Ultralight]

I'd say also that a huge component is not being isolated either. You can really marinate in your own skewed thinking if you are a recluse. That seems to be one major ingredient with hoarding too, the removal of anyone who would judge/confront or reflect on reality. But I think unless a person wants to be better then they should just be left to it after some measure of urging and convincing proves to be ineffective.

Hoard enough stuff and you've built a fortress around yourself and you have shut everyone out.

Isolation is a negative feedback loop of hoarding.

Leaving someone to hoard causes difficult problems. Most first responders like firefighters and EMTs consider hoards to be fire hazards and dangerous (though the EMT on here would dispute this, though I have no idea why).

There are also problems of pests like rats, bedbugs, and scabies. These flourish in hoards.

There is the issue of disease, this is especially true when hoarders have animals.

Neighbors often despise hoarders because a hoard brings down property values and makes selling a home hard (and you often want to sell your home and move when you live next to a hoarder!).

Hoarders often disregard the space of others. Like when I was a kid I had a closet in my room. But I could not use it. My mom appropriated it and hoarded it up.

This can happen on the neighborhood level where hoarders encroach on others' space.

[Ultralight]

Well, SURE it is easier to see thngs when they are all spread out on a flat surface. That also makes it impossible to clean.

Well, it certainly can. But for me I just clean off the counter and the coffee table in the span of a couple minutes. There are only so many things that could be on there anyway because I own so few.

[RoseQuartz]

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[Ultralight]

What I was getting at was that once the hoarder becomes a danger to themselves or others then the state needs to step in and clean up the hoard.

I would disagree that a hoarder can live the way they want until it hurts someone else. Think about if you lived right next to a hoarder and their tinderbox just went up in flames. Your house could get caught in that. People could get hurt and die. This has happened!

So the state needs to make sure it does not go this far.

As for a person, let's say, who marries a hoarder. They have to accept that the person is just a hoarder. The odds of them getting appreciably better being so small, all one can do is say: "If you can't beat them, join them."

The person could also leave and get divorced, which is what I would do.

[Chicken lady]

Ultralite, if you were talking to me, you can ask me anything, I can always decline to answer.

i think you and I have different definition of "hoarder". Perhaps because I see it from the inside, and you see it from the outside. I would actually call rose quartz an extremely high functioning hoarder - because of the mind chatter. That to me, the impulse to hoard things, is the nature of hoarding. To you, the key element is the actual hoard.

There is a linein the pink panther movie about "yuri the trainer who trains." You see the hoarders who hoard.

I also think you can have a hoard without being a hoarder. Maybe you were depressed, or broke, or illl, or just completely overwhelmed - but if you aren't actually a hoarder, someone could just come clean all that up and teach you some good habits and you'd just be grateful.

what if you collect things but don't display them because the person you live with doesn't like them? When I lived with my parents I had 2 wide wide floor to ceiling shelves for my dolls. Mom and I both liked them. Dh says "not in here" until we run out of "in here's" and I fight for some space. (Yes, they would now overflow the original shelves)

"things I like" - for example, I like dolls. I enjoy looking at them and having them around and checking out how they are made and their clothes and the sculptural aspect of hands and faces. I chose which ones to collect by "I like this one" (and it fails under my discretionary budget) not by any hard categories or search for diversity.

[RoseQuartz]

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[Teacher Terry]

I have had a few collections and like IL I knew when the time was over and I never got carried away. From my teapot collection I have one and from my dolls I have 3. I let everyone know I am done collecting so no gifts. Actually we have stopped gift giving with most people. The older I gt the more cleaner and lighter I like my space and I also have realized it is so much easier to clean when shit isn't everywhere. My 3rd MIL was a wonderful person but a hoarder. She wanted while she went on a week trip for us to replace her bedroom floor. So we cleaned the room and kept what my DH knew was important, trashed a bunch of shit and gave her a new floor, and matching bedspread, curtains, sheets, lamp etc something she had never had before. When she got home she was speechless. Probably because she expected a new floor only and wondered where all her crap went. However, she kept that room clean until she died. Without me our house would be a disaster. My DH would never put stuff away. I limit his junk to his office, garage and shed. However, he has noted that it is nice to have a home that you can invite someone over at any time and need not worry about the house. When people keep collecting in spite of having too much junk it is really sad.

[Ultralight]

Ultralite, if you were talking to me, you can ask me anything, I can always decline to answer.

Okay, what if you husband said: "Clean up this hoard -- and I mean really clean it -- or I am leaving you and moving away!"

What would you do?

Or what if one or all your kids said: "Mom, clean up this hoard -- and I mean really clean it -- or we will never speak again; there will be total disowning!"

What would you do?


i think you and I have different definition of "hoarder". Perhaps because I see it from the inside, and you see it from the outside. I would actually call rose quartz an extremely high functioning hoarder - because of the mind chatter. That to me, the impulse to hoard things, is the nature of hoarding. To you, the key element is the actual hoard.

Very intriguing. I will certainly think this over. So interesting!

So what about this? When I encounter a bobber when I am out fishing, I will often want to keep it. I have actually grabbed a few and kept them to use, especially if they are the design I like. When I throw away some food scraps I feel a little hesitant because I know they could be composted somewhere. Do these types of thoughts make me a hoarder deep down inside?


There is a linein the pink panther movie about "yuri the trainer who trains." You see the hoarders who hoard.


I also think you can have a hoard without being a hoarder. Maybe you were depressed, or broke, or illl, or just completely overwhelmed - but if you aren't actually a hoarder, someone could just come clean all that up and teach you some good habits and you'd just be grateful.

Could happen.


what if you collect things but don't display them because the person you live with doesn't like them? When I lived with my parents I had 2 wide wide floor to ceiling shelves for my dolls. Mom and I both liked them. Dh says "not in here" until we run out of "in here's" and I fight for some space. (Yes, they would now overflow the original shelves)

I am curious what makes you yield to your husband on this usage of space. Why is he the boss?

Let's say your husband built you a huge unattached showroom for all your dolls. It could hold and display all the ones you have and another 50 dolls you are yet to acquire. Would you put them on display in that showroom? Would you invite people from far and wide to come see them?


"things I like" - for example, I like dolls. I enjoy looking at them and having them around and checking out how they are made and their clothes and the sculptural aspect of hands and faces. I chose which ones to collect by "I like this one" (and it fails under my discretionary budget) not by any hard categories or search for diversity.

I like things, I suppose. But I don't love things.

I like my bicycle (though it could have a more comfortable seat. haha). I like my fish pole. For instance, when I bought it I looked it over and thought: "Ultralight. 5.5 feet. Uses 2-6 pound test line. The 'fish skin' design looks cool. Feel comfortable in my hands." One could say I liked it. But there are bazillions out there just like it. When it snaps, I will throw it away and get a new one. And I don't feel any need to buy a collection of this poles. I had two poles before and it just ruined the slow pace of fishing for me.

Same goes for my bike. I took a bike repair class. Some of the people in there owned like 15 or 20 bikes. I actively do not want another bike. Just one bike is fine.

[Ultralight]

...drunks who smoke.

Not good.

Sorry about your grandmother.

[Ultralight]

I have had a few collections and like IL I knew when the time was over and I never got carried away.

This is intriguing too! People collect, are amused by collecting, but then just quit or set a limit. They don't hoard. Hmmmm....



Without me our house would be a disaster. My DH would never put stuff away. I limit his junk to his office, garage and shed. However, he has noted that it is nice to have a home that you can invite someone over at any time and need not worry about the house.

Bless your heart. I'd be outta there.


When people keep collecting in spite of having too much junk it is really sad.

It really is.

[Teacher Terry]

I had some friends that there house was a mess due to illness I thought. It was a 4000 sq ft home and i was still working f.t. So I went a bunch of weekends to work on it and only got a few rooms done. Guess what within 6 months you would have never known I was there. Neither wanted to throw away their stuff. She even had a note taped to a lamp that her parents had given to her 40 years before. Really? Ugh! I knew then that i had wasted my time. When he was sick we would have to babysit her and then go over and help get rid of stuff. Then we couldn't leave it at their house or even with dementia she would pull out of garbage. In the end the family hired a firm to take everything and clean the house.

[Ultralight]

I had some friends that there house was a mess due to illness I thought. It was a 4000 sq ft home and i was still working f.t. So I went a bunch of weekends to work on it and only got a few rooms done. Guess what within 6 months you would have never known I was there. Neither wanted to throw away their stuff. She even had a note taped to a lamp that her parents had given to her 40 years before. Really? Ugh! I knew then that i had wasted my time. When he was sick we would have to babysit her and then go over and help get rid of stuff. Then we couldn't leave it at their house or even with dementia she would pull out of garbage. In the end the family hired a firm to take everything and clean the house.

Tragic.

[Teacher Terry]

Although at one point when they were forced to move from their big house to a 1000 sq ft rental they let me sell a bunch of their stuff and we made 2k for them with the condition they not be there. It was very very sad. They were awesome wonderful people that would do anything for you. But they couldn't have company because it was too embarrassing although at one point before it was too bad they would entertain. I think the illness (so many years of cancer for her and depression for him before his cancer and her dementia) and their tendencies pushed them over the edge.

[Chicken lady]

Ultralite, my family wouldn't say that because they love me and they understand what is going on with me. Anymore than my husband would say "do 50 push ups or I'm leaving." (I can't do a push up)

if if they had, I would have just collapsed in sorrow, because i would have been as capable of doing that as of doing the push ups.

what they did say is "living like this makes us unhappy." And then they listened when I said why I did it and what I needed. And they are supportive, like somebody lifting your hips while you do the first push up and still being there every day even when it takes you months to do one alone supportive. And they see that I keep working at it. And I may never get there, but I get better. And they know that I really want them to be happy and I keep trying.

which is a lot of why dh is in charge of decorating - but not really, it's really a compromise. "His" room has two chairs, a desk, a bookshelf with books and empty space, a small table, a stereo, a guitar, and a yoga mat. There are a few pictures on the wall. I have to ask before I carry anything in except his mail, as in "can I come sit with you with my book?" Dh, "yes. Don't leave it in here." "My" room is the cluttered messy basement and sometimes he has to remind me to clean it up. "Our" rooms are in between, but he just really doesn't like the dolls. I don't let him hang guns on the wall either.

if he gave me a room like that, I would display the dolls and spend a lot of time there, but I wouldn't invite people in because I'm an introvert and don't like people. Only my mom and anybody else I know if I found out they liked dolls. My nieces for sure! I would have them in to play! They are coming for my daughter's wedding and I really want to show them some of the dolls.

[Ultralight]

Ultralite, my family wouldn't say that because they love me and they understand what is going on with me. Anymore than my husband would say "do 50 push ups or I'm leaving." (I can't do a push up)

Hmmm... interesting.


if if they had, I would have just collapsed in sorrow, because i would have been as capable of doing that as of doing the push ups.

So if they did say something like "dehoard or we're done!" your family would fracture. That is rough.


what they did say is "living like this makes us unhappy." And then they listened when I said why I did it and what I needed. And they are supportive, like somebody lifting your hips while you do the first push up and still being there every day even when it takes you months to do one alone supportive. And they see that I keep working at it. And I may never get there, but I get better. And they know that I really want them to be happy and I keep trying.

The fact that you listened to them at all is actually pretty dang amazing. My mom would certainly say: "Like it or lump it!"


which is a lot of why dh is in charge of decorating - but not really, it's really a compromise. "His" room has two chairs, a desk, a bookshelf with books and empty space, a small table, a stereo, a guitar, and a yoga mat. There are a few pictures on the wall. I have to ask before I carry anything in except his mail, as in "can I come sit with you with my book?" Dh, "yes. Don't leave it in here." "My" room is the cluttered messy basement and sometimes he has to remind me to clean it up. "Our" rooms are in between, but he just really doesn't like the dolls. I don't let him hang guns on the wall either.

Zoning. I hear this is a popular strategy.


if he gave me a room like that, I would display the dolls and spend a lot of time there, but I wouldn't invite people in because I'm an introvert and don't like people. Only my mom and anybody else I know if I found out they liked dolls. My nieces for sure! I would have them in to play! They are coming for my daughter's wedding and I really want to show them some of the dolls.

You don't like people? Very telling.


Why does your husband dislike the dolls so much?

[Teacher Terry]

I can't live in a messy house so give my DH his space that I don't enter because it is messy. I also don't clean his office. When we first got together it was obvious I was alot neater so we compromised. He is neater then he was and I give him spaces to be messy. I don't need to be in his office, garage or shed so I stay out. I was in 2 bad marriages and we have a great marriage and have lots of fun together. My 2nd husband was a neat freak to the extreme but was a jerk and treated me badly. Also things have been known to disappear if #3 is gone for a week or so out of town and never misses a thing. What does that tell you?

[Teacher Terry]

I always say that he has to die first because I will me mad if I am dead and my beautiful house is trashed:~)

[Ultralight]

I can't live in a messy house so give my DH his space that I don't enter because it is messy. I also don't clean his office. When we first got together it was obvious I was alot neater so we compromised. He is neater then he was and I give him spaces to be messy. I don't need to be in his office, garage or shed so I stay out. I was in 2 bad marriages and we have a great marriage and have lots of fun together. My 2nd husband was a neat freak to the extreme but was a jerk and treated me badly. Also things have been known to disappear if #3 is gone for a week or so out of town and never misses a thing. What does that tell you?

Man, if I offloaded some of my mom's stuff when she was gone and she found out she would lose it!

And if she left on a trip for a few weeks, which she and my dad do now with their campervan, and my sis and I cleaned the place for real...

I think my mom could try to hurt herself.

[Ultralight]

I always say that he has to die first because I will me mad if I am dead and my beautiful house is trashed:~)

A buddy of mine moved in with his GF two years ago. I helped him clean his place and move stuff. She was there helping too.

They had been together 8 years. They finally decided to move in together.

Dude's fridge was trashed! His whole place screamed "messy bachelor." But that fridge was rough.

She looked him right in the eye and said: "You move into my house and mess up my fridge like that you better hope I am already dead! Over my dead body will my fridge ever get trashed like that!"

I quickly left the room to move some other stuff to the car! haha

She is taller and more muscular than him too. lol

But, it all worked out well. They have worked out a good system and have a nice, clean place. Altogether they are happy and have a great partnership.

If it had been me though, I would have given the relationship serious second thoughts.

[Teacher Terry]

My Dh hated his Mom's hoarding so he is not nearly as bad and gets over stuff. Plus if you get rid of crap in a messy garage and leave the garage messy he can't tell stuff is missing.

[Ultralight]

Here is something I recently realized. I don't think that my sis or I have every actually used the words "hoard," "hoarder," or "hoarding" to my mom and dad.

We have skated around the word using vague terms. We often just say: "the house."


I am thinking of talking to my mom directly about the hoarding.

One idea: I will talk to her about the hoarding in very real terms, so that she knows what will happen when she passes away.

Two idea: I kind of think it will bring some light to the shadows if my sis and I can just talk in real terms about the hoard around my mom.

Also, I kind of wonder if calling it what it really is might snap my dad out of his hoarding by proxy.

[Chicken lady]

I think if someone is issuing ultimatums, the relationship is already fractured.

ironically, I don't clean dh office, so it is actually the dirtiest room in the house. I can see footprints in the dust on the hardwood floor.

tell your mom about me.

do you think you could actually support her if she really wanted to get better? I warn you, change is a curve - it starts almost undetectable, possibly for a couple of years. Then one day, you can see it, and then eventually, you get to what you would think of as day one, and the hoarder feels like that have climbed mt Everest. Zero to seeing the floor is a whole lot harder than clean floor to empty surfaces.

telling her everything will be thrown away when she dies won't change anything. Humans are very good at deluding themselves about life after death ;)

[Ultralight]

I think if someone is issuing ultimatums, the relationship is already fractured.

Who fractured it? That is a tough question...


ironically, I don't clean dh office, so it is actually the dirtiest room in the house. I can see footprints in the dust on the hardwood floor.


tell your mom about me.

I just might...


do you think you could actually support her if she really wanted to get better? I warn you, change is a curve - it starts almost undetectable, possibly for a couple of years. Then one day, you can see it, and then eventually, you get to what you would think of as day one, and the hoarder feels like that have climbed mt Everest. Zero to seeing the floor is a whole lot harder than clean floor to empty surfaces.

Honestly, no. I could not put in the time to help anyone who was a hoarder, unless I was getting paid a good wage, with bennies.


telling her everything will be thrown away when she dies won't change anything. Humans are very good at deluding themselves about life after death ;)

Valid point.

[Chicken lady]

Btw, why is it telling that I don't like people?

i'm not sure why dh doesn't like the dolls. He also doesn't like peanut butter, goats, my favorite sweatshirt, eyelet lace, China figurines, country music, or Dungeons and Dragons.

[Ultralight]

i'm not sure why dh doesn't like the dolls. He also doesn't like peanut butter, goats, my favorite sweatshirt, eyelet lace, China figurines, country music, or Dungeons and Dragons.

Huh, no specific reason?

I don't like Led Zeppelin. Why? Because it sounds like Robert Plant was screaming baby-talk.

I don't like beef. Why? Because cattle is a destroyer of wildlife habitat.

I also don't like bats. Why? Because rabies scares the bejesus out of me.

People have reasons for disliking things. So I was just curious about your husband's dislike of dolls.

[Geila]

UA: Ok, your response to my post was a while back but I'll try to address what you said.

I'm not crafty or artsy at all - don't have the talent or patience for it. So I guess that's a good thing in this regard! :)

My hobbies are: my pets (although I think of them as family, not as hobbies, but they do take up a lot of my time and energy), gardening, used to be a big reader now not so much, used to travel a lot now not so much, cooking, I enjoy listening to guided imagery and meditation tapes, I like listening to music while I work around the house and such, right now I'm enjoying my workouts, I like walking my dogs every morning, dh and I enjoy watching movies together, I enjoy eating good food! :), I really enjoy hiking though I haven't been this year because I've been working on lots of gardening projects. That's one thing - I like projects that have a start and end to them. I enjoy the intensity of getting things done and then I'm ready to move onto something else.

How would I feel about being mediocre at sewing? Perfectly fine. The projects I want to do are not very artistic or creative, more functional and practical. Stuff like finding a fabric that I really like and making new covers for the cushions in a room instead of buying new cushions and throwing out the ones I already have, or making cute covers for the pet beds, etc.. I enjoy changing things up every once in a while but feel uncomfortable throwing out perfectly good stuff, so I figure the sewing would accomplish what i want without the waste, or at least less waste.

Where does the line between "saver" and "hoarder" lie? For example, I think of dh as a saver because he never buys anything and he only saves this that he sees as having a purpose. He's also very handy and I grant him that it is possible he will one day use all the things he keeps. But I argue that all those things he keeps we have coming into our lives on a regular basis - so there is no need to save them! Coffee cans, pickle jars, cookie tins, cardboard boxes - these are things that are certainly practical to keep, and many people do, but at some point the choice must be made between "wasting" the item by putting it in the recycle bin, and wasting the space that it takes to keep the item on hand. And I might have exaggerated how much stuff dh keeps because it bothers me so much. We're talking a few of each item, but collectively they add up to a lot of stuff. I do think he keeps to much of that stuff, but I don't think he has a mental illness that causes him to do it. I think many people from earlier generations who did live through periods of living without became savers as a result. The problem is that now, we have so much abundance coming into our lives, in the form of consumer goods and physical things, that the need to save is just not there anymore. But I think it's hard to get rid of the impulse to save when one has endured prolonged periods of not having enough.

[Chicken lady]

Many people don't explore and analyze their reasons for liking or not liking things. Dh "just doesn't like" a lot of stuff. He "just likes" a lot of stuff too.

Fundamentally the the answer to why we don't like things is that those things do not stimulate any reward centers in our brains.

i like bats.

[Ultralight]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses! :)


UA: Ok, your response to my post was a while back but I'll try to address what you said.

Better late than never. :)


I'm not crafty or artsy at all - don't have the talent or patience for it. So I guess that's a good thing in this regard! :)

It could be. :)


My hobbies are: my pets (although I think of them as family, not as hobbies, but they do take up a lot of my time and energy), gardening, used to be a big reader now not so much, used to travel a lot now not so much, cooking, I enjoy listening to guided imagery and meditation tapes, I like listening to music while I work around the house and such, right now I'm enjoying my workouts, I like walking my dogs every morning, dh and I enjoy watching movies together, I enjoy eating good food! :), I really enjoy hiking though I haven't been this year because I've been working on lots of gardening projects. That's one thing - I like projects that have a start and end to them. I enjoy the intensity of getting things done and then I'm ready to move onto something else.

Here is a thought, and I am just throwing this out there.

It seems like you have lots of hobbies and interests that really are meaningful to you and require your time, attention, and focus. Would taking up sewing and such perhaps subtract time you need for these other things, like your pets or cooking?

This alone might be a reason to just consider offloading the sewing stuff you have been storing.

I bring this up because I am a recovering hobby hoarder. Now that I stick to a few particular hobbies I can take things at a slower pace and enjoy a richness that I could not when I was popping from hobby to hobby on the surface level only.


How would I feel about being mediocre at sewing? Perfectly fine. The projects I want to do are not very artistic or creative, more functional and practical. Stuff like finding a fabric that I really like and making new covers for the cushions in a room instead of buying new cushions and throwing out the ones I already have, or making cute covers for the pet beds, etc.. I enjoy changing things up every once in a while but feel uncomfortable throwing out perfectly good stuff, so I figure the sewing would accomplish what i want without the waste, or at least less waste.

The choice is up to you. Ultimately you can make it. And then you sew. Or you make it and then you don't sew. But beware the other option, which is being frozen with indecision.


Where does the line between "saver" and "hoarder" lie? For example, I think of dh as a saver because he never buys anything and he only saves this that he sees as having a purpose. He's also very handy and I grant him that it is possible he will one day use all the things he keeps. But I argue that all those things he keeps we have coming into our lives on a regular basis - so there is no need to save them! Coffee cans, pickle jars, cookie tins, cardboard boxes - these are things that are certainly practical to keep, and many people do, but at some point the choice must be made between "wasting" the item by putting it in the recycle bin, and wasting the space that it takes to keep the item on hand. And I might have exaggerated how much stuff dh keeps because it bothers me so much. We're talking a few of each item, but collectively they add up to a lot of stuff. I do think he keeps to much of that stuff, but I don't think he has a mental illness that causes him to do it. I think many people from earlier generations who did live through periods of living without became savers as a result. The problem is that now, we have so much abundance coming into our lives, in the form of consumer goods and physical things, that the need to save is just not there anymore. But I think it's hard to get rid of the impulse to save when one has endured prolonged periods of not having enough.

Good questions in here. I don't know the difference between hoarder and saver, or that there is necessarily a difference. :confused: