Explaining SLing and minimalism to others...

[Ultralight]

Sometimes, especially at work and in new social situations, I avoid talking about simple living and minimalism. We all know how it goes against the grain of the culture and can make people think that we think we are "better" than them.

I have found that when I say: "I don't really need stuff or retail therapy" what people actually hear is "You need stuff because you are weak or simple minded. You need retail therapy because you are mentally ill."

What I am asking for is any tried and true methods or explaining your simple living or minimalism -- or just certain aspects of it, such as frugality -- to others, like coworkers or friends or family.

Thanks!

[Kestra]

I think a lot of it has to do with attitude, and word choices. You have to really own it. And be really matter of fact and open, and don't use any "wiggle words".

So if you are trying to eat out less, don't say "I can't afford to do that," or "it's not in my budget" because for most people those are lies, or at least half truths (technically you can afford it and you make up your own budget). It's better to say "I'm choosing to not spend my money on that right now, thanks anyway."

Also never blame your partner just to make it easier on yourself. Like, "oh husband would freak out if I bought another pair of shoes." Husband might not care at all, but don't put that on him regardless. It's your own choice.

About early retirement, I usually say that I value freedom above everything else. That usually gets the point across without coming across as better than them. Just point out that everyone values different things.

I also just surround myself with people who aren't weirded out by my lifestyle. If they are they won't be a friend for long.

I must be doing something right because I can't remember the last time I faced any push-back about any choices I've made, and as you know, I'm fairly extreme in some areas.

[Ultralight]

"Wiggle words!" lol

When I do come out to people as a minimalist/SLer I usually use this phrase: "I am a practicing minimalist." Now that I reflect on that I am not so sure it is ideal. haha

I oscillate between trying to "blend in," especially at work because I work a normal job. But also in social situations where I don't foresee myself having to invest any further in the interaction.

But I like this idea of really owning it. No more hems or haws?! haha

[Kestra]

Yes, at work you have to be a bit more circumspect. I didn't mention that I lived on half my take-home pay, for example. But I was as honest as possible about things that weren't really job related, like the lunch out example.

I think people tend to respect honesty (even if they disagree) and recognize authenticity (even if it's only subconsciously).

Of course the newer the job is and the more you need to keep it, the more careful you have to be. But that's the plus side to this lifestyle - that you don't need the job as badly as your peers, so you can take greater risks, speak up more, and potentially earn favour with the bosses and advance your career more.

At work I'd rather be respected than liked. Bosses who cared too much about being liked generally weren't the best bosses. Everyone knew who I was because I was one of the few people willing to speak up to anyone at any time. Unfortunately the risk-taking at work doesn't always work out, as my last set of bosses refused to engage with me at all, even though I was twice as productive as the average worker, and volunteered for all sorts of useful extra work. So I quit to do my own thing. Their loss. (Sorry, off topic but I'm still kind of bitter.)

In your example of social situations where you don't see further future interaction, that's the best time to be honest. It lets you practice speaking truthfully and if you'll never see the person again who cares what they think about you?

[Ultralight]

Good points! All good points.

I will use those opportunities when I think I don't gave to invest to speak my mind and explain myself as needed.

Any more talking points or soundbytes you have are much appreciated. :)

I spent much of my life until just a few years ago fighting the power and bucking trends very openly. Now I usually try to pick my battles more carefully and take the path of least resistance when convenient and save my grit for when I need to swim upstream.

[awakenedsoul]

A lot of people don't get it. I've had people comment about "the way I live". But, those people have debt, and I don't. I just remind myself that I'd rather have a full emergency fund and a comfortable cash lifestyle than their approval. I don't spend much time with people who disapprove, though. I'm sure I look weird to them, trudging along with my bike trailer/shopping cart to the bus stop and sales at the grocery store. But, it works for me. The financial payoff is so great...I just focus on that.

[Kestra]

I was just talking about this over on the MMM forums as well and someone made the very good point that if none of us are willing to talk about SL then it will remain this hidden, unusual thing. If we want to get other people onboard then we have to talk about it sometimes.

That is something I think about regularly and a reason I am so open - I want to spread the message. I consider myself an FI mentor (took a course and everything) and my business plan is mostly about getting people more onboard, as much or as little as their personal circumstances will allow.

[Tammy]

I don't say much about it. I just answer questions if people ask. Sort of like sex religion and politics. Ha

[ToomuchStuff]

I have found that when I say: "I don't really need stuff or retail therapy" what people actually hear is "You need stuff because you are weak or simple minded. You need retail therapy because you are mentally ill."

What I am asking for is any tried and true methods or explaining your simple living or minimalism -- or just certain aspects of it, such as frugality -- to others, like coworkers or friends or family.

Thanks!
So you want to know what to say, when you don't know what they are going to hear, or think anyway?


I was just talking about this over on the MMM forums as well and someone made the very good point that if none of us are willing to talk about SL then it will remain this hidden, unusual thing. If we want to get other people onboard then we have to talk about it sometimes.



I don't say much about it. I just answer questions if people ask. Sort of like sex religion and politics. Ha

I think there is a difference between talking when someone is trying to learn and trying to stay hidden. Someone trying to hide, would go back to those "wiggle words".
If they are open minded enough to want to learn and have been shutting their mouths, keeping their eyes and ears open to spot you then I would be willing to talk about it. Otherwise you don't owe them any explanation and why would you want to provide them with ammo?

[Chicken lady]

We raided our kids in a the country in what would be called a "mixed use" area in city planning. We confused a lot of them. One of dd's best friends finally asked about it in high school - he couldn't understand why she lived like him - packed lunches/snacks, homemade/secondhand, a bike for transportation, when she lived on a beautiful farm with a dad at home who drove a nice car to work in a button down shirt every day.

I also enjoyed her story of chatting in the locker room and saying something about buying clothes at goodwill. One of the other girls asked "you buy your clothes at goodwill?" and she said "yeah.". And the girl said "but you have a pond!" and dd said " yes?" and the girl said "aren't ponds expensive?" and dd said "right. We buy our clothes at goodwill, SO we can have a pond."

I'm curious about what is triggering these people to ask about your life style? I think knowing that would help you respond appropriately.

[Ultralight]

What triggers people to ask about my lifestyle? Lots of little things. I don't fret about getting a raise like others do. For lunches, I bring a loaf of bread and jars of PB&J for lunches or sweet potatoes to "bake" in the microwave or beans & rice.

Sometimes a trigger can be the clear absence of my contributions in a conversation, like about shopping, cars, or TV. Often people ask me about celebrities or TV shows and such. I am oblivious. This happens a lot with "the news." I steer clear of the news whenever I can. It is depressing propaganda.

My SL/minimalism comes up sometimes around social activities like going to lunch or happy hour or going to bars or clubs on weekends. I am teetotal -- which makes my life simpler! haha. But when asked about going to bars or clubs I have no idea what people are talking about. When most people are at bars on Friday night I am out fishing.

These things tip people off to my life and then they ask questions.

[Chicken lady]

I think I would just answer their questions simply an honestly.

"I don't drink and I enjoy spending my evening fishing."

We went to a movie yesterday (big event!) there was a commercial with some famous guy whose name I can't remember even though they said it a bunch of times. Dh looked at me with his amused face and said "you have no idea who that is, do you?" and I said "nope.". Dh told me he's a soccer star.

My coworkers are used to me having no idea whom or what they are talking about. They are also used to my sweet potato, rice w/veggie, bread and apple lunches and appallingly non-trendy clothing. (I dress like the little kids - classic jeans and a school t-shirt). As for activities, I often just say " I don't do that.". Sometimes coworkers who have known me a long time will answer for me. Sometimes they will come by and say " hey, I wanted to tell you, so-and-so wanted to invite you to xyz, but we told her you don't do that.". And I say " thanks!" - for sparing me the conversation and for letting me know I was thought of.

[Ultralight]

"Simply and honestly." I like it! haha

[SteveinMN]

if none of us are willing to talk about SL then it will remain this hidden, unusual thing. If we want to get other people onboard then we have to talk about it sometimes.
Maybe it's just me, but I really don't care if other people "get it". In fact, it kind of works in my favor that others out there are buying new so I can buy used; enjoying toys (campers, cabins, etc.) they then share with me; trying the new restaurants we don't get to anymore. I mean, FI is great and the planet would be much better off if we didn't have a world economy powered by consumption. But if someone wants to work until they're 70 because they have to have a new truck every four years or they toss worn clothing like I would toss a used tissue, well, we all make our choices. I've made mine and am the happier for them.

I suppose we're not so much minimalists as just simple-livers. Our house does not look empty. I wear the same generic kinds of shirts my friends wear. I'm toting an iPhone 6 (bought refurbished and outright) right now, but that should last me until iPhone 8s or 9s are a "thing" years from now. Reading up on popular culture is free, so I can at least not look oblivious when people talk about the latest blockbuster movie or viral YouTube video. And I've had other experiences: I had a good chance to see a big chunk of this world some years ago and that can be a conversation starter/prolonger.

Frankly, I spend most of my time in conversations asking the others questions. My experience is that most people can chat for hours about their own interests and that deflects from what I may not have:

Them: "Did you see that new Marvel superhero movie, Agents of O.R.A.N.G.E.??"
Me: "No, I haven't. Isn't that the one with Reiner Wolfcastle in it?"
Them: "Yeah!"
Me: "Have you seen it? Did you like it?"

They're happy to hold forth. Maybe I'll mention another movie Wolfcastle was in that I have seen. They don't need to know that Redbox at $1 a pop is our movie friend and it will be weeks/months until (or if) we ever see the movie. That we don't spend >$100 a month on cable or Netflix or ... whatever. That the extra $800 we're not spending on high-end cable every year is another mortgage payment for us.

It's worked for us so far. Maybe I'm a lousy ambassador for the SL/FI movement. But I do tell people that sometimes you have to decide what you want to spend your money on and, for us, that was the flexibility to chase our muses. Most people seem to envy that a little. Then they drive home in their new Acura SUVs to their big houses and 60" TVs. We all make our choices.

[corkym]

Love this great response SteveinMN! The common thread through all of these comments are it all comes down to choices. You just have to decide what makes you happiest. Freedom or buying the latest trend.

[pinkytoe]

I work with a woman who talks a lot about stuff - cars, jewelry etc. She will be 65 and plans to work here until she drops dead as she has absolutely no savings. I try when I can to explain to her that the new SUV she just financed might be one reason. Not in a condescending way but as a suggestion. She just does not want to get the concept as I imagine most people don't. I really don't talk about living simply to others - I'm just glad we all have choice in the matter to follow that path.

[Ultralight]

pinkytoe:

What do you think it is that makes a person want to live like that? The stuff -- cars, jewelry, and the culture of total work?

[Teacher Terry]

Someday it will dawn on that woman that she won't be able to work forever. That will be a sad day because age, illness, etc often happen. Most people plan to work way longer the studies show then they actually do. Some have to retire to care for an ill spouse.

[Ultralight]

Well, she'll have some social security to live on. Maybe then she'll downsize and pawn the jewelry...? :/

[Teacher Terry]

The only thing worse then being "old" is being " old & poor."

[Ultralight]

I think many, many people are headed for the old & poor category.

[pinkytoe]

I can only guess that many people find comfort/happiness in stuff. It fills the hole in their soul. I know I feel good for a day or two on the rare occasion that I buy something new and shiny.

[JaneV2.0]

I don't think anyone--outside of maybe psychopaths--has a "hole in their soul." This kind of snooty judgmentalism isn't helpful.

The trick is not in denying yourself any and all "stuff." It's in deciding how much and what kind is meaningful to you.

[Kestra]

I don't think anyone--outside of maybe psychopaths--has a "hole in their soul." This kind of snooty judgmentalism isn't helpful.


I didn't take it that way. I've certainly felt the "hole in the soul" thing at various points in my life, when I was living a less than ideal life. I take it to mean searching for something you feel is missing from your life, which I think many do.

[bae]

I don't say much about it. I just answer questions if people ask. Sort of like sex religion and politics. Ha

+1

[pinkytoe]

Hmmm - Hole in the soul - just words - to me it means emptiness - nothing judgmental intended.

[awakenedsoul]

One thing that living simply has done for me is that it's enabled me to pay cash for the important things. For example, I just found out that I need to have both hips replaced. Because I've been living so frugally, I had the money to pay cash for the top doctor's opinion. I just switched my health insurance, so that I now have a PPO. I can afford the higher premiums, because I took the bus, ate homemade food, and tracked my spending for all these years. As you get older, different challenges present themselves. At 20 or 30, I never thought I'd need to have both hips replaced. This is one time where I don't want to find the best deal, I want to go to the top specialist.

I will continue to do all of the little things to save money, in case another extreme situation arises. I remember the years when I didn't have an emergency fund. It feels so much better to be prepared.

[JaneV2.0]

Hmmm - Hole in the soul - just words - to me it means emptiness - nothing judgmental intended.

Maybe it's semantics, but although I've spent money less than wisely--many times--I'm sure my soul is intact. I just say to myself "that was dumb," and move on. No need to beat myself or others over the head (figuratively) or judge them for making decisions different from mine. That's the part of simple living I can't embrace--the smugness of it.

[Ultralight]

JaneV2.0:

I really don't think anyone on this thread was being smug. I think simple living has made me less judgmental because when I was right-sizing my life and divesting of belongings that I no longer needed or wanted or worse -- were an outright burden to me -- I had to face my many, many mistakes.

I still make a mistaken purchase from time to time. Then I am like..."Oh man, why did I do that?"

Sometimes it is emotional, though usually it is just a misstep where I think I need something but I actually don't. It is the result of me not thinking things through.

Anyone else feel that simplifying or minimizing made them more empathetic and/or sympathetic by going through one's own many mistakes?

[corkym]

UltraliteAngler: "I think many, many people are headed for the old & poor category." I don't know if there are many, many, but I know my husband and I fall into that category. Although, we never bought luxury items or spent money on things we didn't need, we still weren't wise with saving or tracking our money and budgeting. I wish I had paid attention to people like you and all of these people on this forum throughout my life. I don't even know if I was really aware of simple living. I just wish I had taken the simple living path years ago.

[Ultralight]

corkym:

Hey, I am probably going to be old and poor too. And my job does not even pay into social security. :/

I am 36 and just got into frugality/simple living about 2 or 3 years ago. And it has been a process. I wasn't perfect when I started. I am much, much better now, but still not perfect.

[rodeosweetheart]

from Jane:
"No need to beat myself or others over the head (figuratively) or judge them for making decisions different from mine. That's the part of simple living I can't embrace--the smugness of it."
Beautifully stated, Jane! I agree completely, and that's the road I'm trying to take, too. And I agree, too, that smugness creeps in really fast!

[Ultralight]

rodeosweetheart or Jane:

Please give me a handful of examples of SLers being smug. I have not witnessed this.

[pinkytoe]

I think there is a perception that some SLers might consider themselves "enlightened" concerning lifestyle choices thus it comes off as smug. Our society programs us to strive and acquire from an early age so when one discovers a simpler way, it feels like a treasure (if you are so incllined) that you want to explain to others who might benefit from it. I don't pretend to understand others motivations for just about anything they do and don't intend to judge. However, my co-worker complains daily about how poor she is and yet refuses to consider not shopping quite so often.

[JaneV2.0]

rodeosweetheart or Jane:

Please give me a handful of examples of SLers being smug. I have not witnessed this.

You haven't been around long. We have epidemics of smug.

[bae]

rodeosweetheart or Jane:

Please give me a handful of examples of SLers being smug. I have not witnessed this.

http://www.matferbourgeatusa.com/content/images/thumbs/0001419_matfer-swing-salad-spinner-2-12-gallons.jpeg

[Ultralight]

Jane: True, I am new to these forums.

bae: Is that a salad spinner? haha

[jp1]

Oh no! He said salad spinner...

[Ultralight]

I am getting the feeling I've been set up! hahaha

[SteveinMN]

I am getting the feeling I've been set up! hahaha
You have been! :) Salad spinners were a long-running thread here a couple of years ago, with some people declaring them fairly indispensable multiple-use tools and some considering them unnecessary since there were so many other ways to dry greens and other items. Good times....


I do think some SLers can be smug. There was a comment earlier in this thread about why anyone would want to have so much "stuff". Some people like "stuff". It's experiences, it's status, it's possessions one enjoys using. Maybe those folks really like their work and continuing past minimum retirement age is nothing they even think about. If that's their choice, great for them. I can feel sad for the ones who are buying themselves out of what they say they really want in their lives (retiring early, quitting for health reasons, etc.), but most of these folks have had the chances again and again to choose differently and they don't, so I guess they're choosing what they really want.

I also think there's a line to be drawn between voluntary and involuntary simplicity. I know people who live just above grinding poverty and who don't have much because they can't do any differently given their situation (grandparents caring for grandchildren, people who never got much of an education or have not been able to land a decent job with their skills, etc.). They may live simply, but they're certainly not doing so in the same way as the apocryphal Silicon Valley exec who made a healthy 6-figure salary for years and decided to chuck it all and backpack around Borneo for a couple of years or to fund a medical clinic in an inner city. My perception is that at least American society views those two forms of simplicity quite differently.

[jp1]

Naw. You're not being set up. We ALL love salad spinners. They are the best simple living item ever. Give people a moment and they'll all come out to concur with me.

[ApatheticNoMore]

There may be any number of reasons someone will work till full retirement and beyond and buy stuff. Yes maybe they need their work to have a purpose in life or maybe they do even like it. Maybe they're waiting till 65 when Medicare kicks in (this really depends on whether they regard the ACA plans as a viable solution for them - I've never worked anywhere where retired people were eligible for work healthcare anymore - except cobra - so I have to consider that a rarity indeed). And they may be carrying a spouse on their healthcare as well ... ok truthfully they may be carrying kids on it etc. - but that's having kids late in life. Maybe their spouse already doesn't work and they can't stand the thought of spending all day with their spouse :laff:

[rosarugosa]

I LOVE my salad spinner; JP speaks the truth!

[Teacher Terry]

Yesterday I was really reminded that I am lucky not to have to work f.t. in an office anymore. I spent 8 hours working seeing clients in an office & was totally exhausted when I got home. I love the work but would not want to do it everyday. I was too tired to cook or exercise. I was truly grateful at age 61 not to have to do this 8 hours per day. When I do it now I choose it which is a totally different thing.

[iris lilies]

I don't much like "stuff" but I DO like dry salad greens hence I have a spinner. And I didn't even buy it at a thrift store, so THERE!!!

[profnot]

I've learned most people hear the word "budget" and cringe, like we all do at the word "diet."

So when appropriate, I talk about being very clear on what my financial needs are so I can make choices that are good for me longterm.

I start out by admitting my dog is an expensive breed. But having a pug is a essential to my happiness. (Current pug is a rescue. Next pug will be a puppy - I missed the bonding from starting with a puppy.)

Also essential is having a dependable, good-mileage car. I don't care that it is 16 years old.

I say I try to be mindful with every purchase, especially housing and food.

Listeners tend to like the idea of getting what they want by making choices.

If I make any suggestions about spending, it's usually something like "how about you get one mani-pedi a season and do the others yourself at home?"

Make small changes quickly. Make large changes thoughtfully - taking as much time as necessary. (I think it's going to take my friend 2 years to talk her DH into downsizing into a smaller house. Their big mortgage payments are killers. I've connected her to a CFP so he can be the bearer of bad news.)

[TxZen]

I just live my life and if people ask, I answer truthfully. I have nothing to hide. Everyone has their quirks and I am the quirky one that goes against the flow of what is considered normal, but people just accept me for that. I did have a friend ask me about how I get my son's wardrobe for the school year for about 65% off retail, so I shared. I also had someone ask me about my diet- lots of salads, fruit for snacks, nuts/seeds, water etc. I tell them I like to eat healthy and save money. Also, my lunch time is my down time during the day. I am not a chatty Cathy, I like to decompress. If it's for something special, like around Christmas or a close coworkers birthday, I will go out but for the most part, I just stick to myself, sometimes even taking a walk.

I do get questions when people come over because my house is very, very simple in décor and stuff. But, for the most part, it's out of curiosity. I don't mind like I used too. Age has a great way of giving one perspective.

[SteveinMN]

Listeners tend to like the idea of getting what they want by making choices.
A much more succinct way to say what I did not say well. :) "Choices" transcends politics, religions, even most financial situations. It's hard for people to argue against choice.

[larknm]

This has only come up once. A newish friend drove 12 hours to here and was in my house, with her father and aunt, for the first time. She asked things like, do we have air conditioning, where's our TV. I told her for each thing that we don't really need it, and although she was amazed, she accepted that answer.