Frugality vs. values?

[Ultralight]

Okay, so in many ways this is something I have not taken on full-on yet. I feel it is part of learning to be financially literate and frugal.

Sometimes when I am trying to save money I have to decide between saving some cash and keeping my values intact.

A clear example of this is shopping for groceries. I can drive 2.5 miles to the Meijer store and pay more for everything. Or I can drive 1.5 miles to the Wal-mart and pay a lot less for everything. Meijer is union (something I usually support). Wal-mart is an evil empire (something I don't usually support).

Another example is organic vs. conventional foods. I like organic and feel they are healthier and impact the environment to a lesser degree. But then again, I gotta keep on grindin' at a job I don't like to pay two or three times as much for that organic item. That doesn't seem healthy.

Thoughts?

[Tammy]

I choose regular food over organic most of the time. I reason that if I eat real food (fruits veggies grains - things that actually look like food) as opposed to junk food, the bits of things in nonorganic are not a problem.

I think of people who pay a lot for organic produce, but then also eat lots of processed junk food. What's the point?

[Ultralight]

Tammy:

I am starting to think I should just get the conventionall-grown foods at the nearby Wal-mart. Swallow my liberal pride and save the cash!

But oh... the mixed feelings!

[catherine]

I believe in the concept of voting with your dollar. It's true you have to make choices, however, it's true that sometimes or oftentimes you can't afford to make a statement with your purchasing power. I know that, but I'm trying my darndest to "vote" for organic, local food because I am so against our food policy in this country on so many levels I won't even go into it here.

If people don't pay attention to where food comes from and they just buy what's cheapest all the time, nothing will change, and that's not acceptable to me.

[Kestra]

I believe in the concept of voting with your dollar. It's true you have to make choices, however, it's true that sometimes or oftentimes you can't afford to make a statement with your purchasing power. I know that, but I'm trying my darndest to "vote" for organic, local food because I am so against our food policy in this country on so many levels I won't even go into it here.

If people don't pay attention to where food comes from and they just buy what's cheapest all the time, nothing will change, and that's not acceptable to me.

So true, Catherine. I think that those of us who can generally afford higher priced food should do so.

OTOH I'm not perfect. I identify with Ultralite's dilemma as I'm carfree and I can walk to the Walmart in under 15 minutes. Now that it's summer I've been going to the farmer's market when I can and just last week I discovered a great Asian grocery store close to my work, so my Walmart shopping will be decreasing dramatically.

I do generally spend the extra money on organic food, wherever I shop, when it's available and not wildly priced above the conventional. Here fresh produce is very expensive regardless, and I'm going to eat that way for my health anyhow, so I don't mind paying a 20-30% premium for organic.

[freshstart]

some of the books and movies on this topic are truly horrifying. Especially the ones about meat

[catherine]

Kestra: I'm far from perfect, but I do what I can. I do buy stuff at Costco and the chain supermarket, but I also belong to a CSA and I grow vegetables and rarely eat meat, and when I do, I buy it from small, local cattle and poultry farmers.

freshstart: Yes, it's not pretty.

One of the things I think about when making these choices is that actually we spend FAR less on food as a proportion of our income than our grandparents did. So we're used to cheap. If we decided to dedicate even half of what our grandparents did to food, we could eat like organic kings! My permaculture teacher said, "Food SHOULD be expensive" which of course many people would say, "tell that to the many families who can't afford it."

But the point is, it's cheap for all the wrong reasons. And to Tammy's point, if we cut out the junk, there's lots of room for REAL food.

Here's an interesting graphic on how we spend our money today vs 100 years ago.

http://visualeconomics.creditloan.com/media/uploads/sites/4/2009/12/spending-breakdown.png

[Tammy]

Excellent graph.

Here's something I read recently about pesticides:

http://www.realclearscience.com/journal_club/2015/07/11/pesticide_residues_in_food_no_danger_to_consumers_ 109305.html

[ToomuchStuff]

Frugality IS a value!!!!!
It isn't just a skill. You have to look at your real life circumstances and adjust them to fit both your values and priorities. Then you start also trying to adjust and look for other options (try not to be the type that it is this or that option only). What about things like friends or community gardens? Are you only trying to eat locally grown foods? What about items you can't readily find locally? Have anyone your supporting/caring for and how does that affect your view?
These are all other things that you will need to consider and we can't make the decision for you.

[catherine]

Excellent graph.

Here's something I read recently about pesticides:

http://www.realclearscience.com/journal_club/2015/07/11/pesticide_residues_in_food_no_danger_to_consumers_ 109305.html

I don't want to hijack the thread--we could take this the Environment forum.

However, I just want to respond briefly by saying that pesticides on non-organic foods is probably the least of my concerns. Heck, I'm 63--if my cell structure hasn't changed by now with all the chemicals I've taken in, it never will!

But not eating organic means that…


… our soil is being raped. When chemicals are in the soil and crops are grown in monoculture, it messes up the microbiome. I love dirt. Soil is a wonderful, miraculous substance--not just one "thing" but a living body. Nature has a wonderful way of getting the millions of little creatures under the soil to work together. When you introduce pesticides and herbicides you're messing that up--you think you can concoct a better substitute for growing medium than Mother Nature--guess again (http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/06/healthy-soil-microbes-healthy-people/276710/).

…there's a good chance that people are working under slavish conditions. Of course it's not always true, but it's more likely that the people who work an organic farm are not working in suboptimal conditions. Food for the organic farmer is less likely to be a just a profit center.

…we're killing off diversity. The ecological balance is tipped in favor of the chemicals. We don't know why all these pollinators are dying off, but it's very possible that pesticides could be responsible. We have half the species of wildlife that we had 40 years ago. People like to think that it doesn't matter, but we are in this web of life and we will be impacted.

…animals are being treated cruelly. No matter what you think about meat eating, if you visited a concentrated feed lot, you might have a hard time eating a burger on the way home.

…you're not getting all the vitamins from your food that you could. Studies have shown that there are significantly higher levels of vitamins and nutrients in organic food, basically because of my first point.

…you are voting for multi-national corporations who are trying to make employees out of all the world's small farmers, stripping them of food sovereignty--the right to define and control their own food systems.

THAT'S why I try to eat organic.

[Chicken lady]

Like Catherine, when I buy organic it's more about the rest of the world than about me.

I grew up watching crop dusters spray fields with people in them. I drove by the "housing" that wasn't as nice as my summer camp "primitive" cabin. If it's labor intensive, I prefer to grow or pick it myself. I try to keep cost and impact down by buying local/direct/in season. But I'll buy conventional flour and make my own bread to put my non-organic locally grown u-pick strawberry jam on. My chickens produce eggs on table scraps, organic yard weeds, and convential grain.

Mostly, I think the more you know about where your food comes from, the better choices you can make. Try to get the most "bang for your buck"

[Ultralight]

ToomuchStuff:

"Frugality IS a value!"

Now that is an excellent point!

Right now I am only taking care of me and my dog. I am not married and I do not have kids. I just feed my dog Kirkland dog food from the Costco, good stuff but not fancy, and fruit veggie scraps in the kitchen. I try to eat simply and fairly healthy -- as many veggies as I can stand (which is not that much), fruits, nuts, legumes, whole grains, fish; I eat very little meat and not a lot of milk products.

For me I just think about how my emergency fund could grow if I ate less expensively.

I will say this, and I have mentioned this in another thread somewhere. As a lifestyle experiment, I lived on $1.50 a day in groceries for a week; that is $10.50 for a week. I ate lentils, rice, bananas, and carrots mostly -- and some Ramen. It actually wasn't that bad.

[lessisbest]

Being frugal doesn't mean you don't spend more on something, especially if it really IS a value for you. Being frugal is the practice of acquiring goods and services in a restrained manner (along with a lot of other definitions). I can buy flip-flops for 98-cents, but they don't last a year and they kill my feet. I would be penny wise and pound foolish if I was to only wear 98-cent flip flops and have to end up going to a doctor to have my poor feet treated for my frugal stupidity. I'll gladly pay for quality footwear (which can also be purchased at discounted prices) so I avoid trashing my feet. Frugal doesn't mean we are cheap, nor does it mean we are unwilling to pay for things that have lasting value.

As a compromise, if buying at Wal-Mart really is against your values, then use the other source for shopping. BUT, when you spend your food budget at a more expensive store, you don't just adjust your budget UP to accommodate the higher costs, you adjust what you spend it on. My food budget for 2 adults has been $125 for many years, and as prices go up, I adjust what I spend those food dollars on - not increase the amount I spend.

You might go every two weeks, or even go once-a-month, instead of every week to save on gas.

[Tammy]

Good points Catherine.

I've been eating very little meat recently after watching a TED talk about animal rights. Somehow that particular presentation hit me like none other has - even though I've read lots of stuff about animal rights over the years.

There's so many angles to consider.

[SteveinMN]

Being frugal doesn't mean you don't spend more on something, especially if it really IS a value for you. [snip]

As a compromise, if buying at Wal-Mart really is against your values, then use the other source for shopping. BUT, when you spend your food budget at a more expensive store, you don't just adjust your budget UP to accommodate the higher costs, you adjust what you spend it on.
^^^ This. All this. :)

For us, being frugal does not mean always getting the cheapest item. We're willing to spend money on things we care about -- or to spend some more money to save money further down the road.

We do tend to buy organic food (for lots of reasons I won't go into here); we don't tend to buy much organic/free range/etc. meat but that's not so bad because we think the meat at the co-op tastes better than the cheaper stuff so less of it has the same impact. We also tend to make soups, stews, and stir-fries which don't depend on the presence of a big hunk of meat.

I'll spend more money up front on a more-efficient furnace that will use less fuel over time (lower total cost of ownership) or buy better wall paint because it goes on easier and lasts longer than the budget brands. I'll pay to have a good appliance repaired rather than just toss it and buy a flimsy new one. I'll spend a little extra to buy a product made and sold locally because I believe that's important.

I agree with catherine that we vote with our dollars. I want to make the few I spend count.

[profnot]

My general rule is to put planet and people first.

Sometimes I can't afford this (like when I buy plastic rain boots) but I try.

I try to mix this with frugality. Such as buying only natural fiber tops from the Thrift Shop.

Participating in the local Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) helps. The one in my town lets people work for free food if they can't afford the subscription.

Walmart is evil. It does not exist in my mind. That way, no decisions about how close, etc.

Cutting out gluten has really saved me from lots of low-nutrition carbs and $4 loaves of whole wheat bread. I have more energy when I eat just protein and produce.

Vitamins are important. I went to a nutritionist who had me get a blood test. The results told her exactly what vitamins and supplements I needed and which foods to avoid. (Starch is especially bad for my sciatica. 1 year of no starch and I am pain free.) She sells them to me at her cost plus 10%. I feel great and saved money on sciatica Rx and doctor visits.

You can eat cheaply on lots of carbs (rice, wheat, corn) and starch (potatoes, sugar) but it's bad for your body. Protein and produce. Eggs and tofu are cheap.

Good luck, OP!

[freshstart]

Walmart is evil. It does not exist in my mind. That way, no decisions about how close, etc.

Good luck, OP!

I live right by one of those ginormous ones, didn't want it, went to town meetings, it was a done deal before the discussion about what residents wanted even occurred.

I've boycotted them since well-before I had kids, so 20 yrs-ish? It has affected my life in no way by not shopping there, I do not think my grocery bill would be significantly lower if I went there. But that doesn't matter because I never will.

There are more companies with whom I should be doing the same, but Walmart, to me is cut and dried, no matter what they do, I will never be convinced to be a customer

[jp1]

I think lessons best has the right advice for the OP and I'd expand on that and suggest that you start tracking your expenditures a la YMOYL. From your other posts it sounds as though you are already pretty frugal, so it may be a situation where you will be reducing your amount of savings by shopping at the more expensive store. Seeing the changes in terms of hours of life energy spent for food under both scenarios vs amount of money saved to get out of your soul sucking job might help clarify to you which of your two, conflicting goals matters more to you. Both goals certainly have merit and over time I would suspect that both can be achieved but without looking at the numbers making a decision that works for you is likely to be difficult.

[ToomuchStuff]

Being frugal doesn't mean you don't spend more on something, especially if it really IS a value for you. Being frugal is the practice of acquiring goods and services in a restrained manner (along with a lot of other definitions). I can buy flip-flops for 98-cents, but they don't last a year and they kill my feet. I would be penny wise and pound foolish if I was to only wear 98-cent flip flops and have to end up going to a doctor to have my poor feet treated for my frugal stupidity. I'll gladly pay for quality footwear (which can also be purchased at discounted prices) so I avoid trashing my feet. Frugal doesn't mean we are cheap, nor does it mean we are unwilling to pay for things that have lasting value.

As a compromise, if buying at Wal-Mart really is against your values, then use the other source for shopping. BUT, when you spend your food budget at a more expensive store, you don't just adjust your budget UP to accommodate the higher costs, you adjust what you spend it on. My food budget for 2 adults has been $125 for many years, and as prices go up, I adjust what I spend those food dollars on - not increase the amount I spend.

You might go every two weeks, or even go once-a-month, instead of every week to save on gas.

This is better said, then my point which seemed to be missed. Yes, frugality is a value was caught, but my other point was your values evolve based on needs and circumstances. The example of who do you support being one (you may someday have kids, in which case having money for a longer period, may be a more important value, just in case thing, over views of a particular store).
As values evolve based on experiences and needs, continue self examining.

[Gardenarian]

I think you shouldn't do anything that goes against your values, period.

[awakenedsoul]

I used to buy all organic produce. This year I've returned to buying conventional, due to my budget cuts. I grow vegetables and fruits, so at least those are organic. I look a the big picture, financially. Do I have enough saved for retirement? Is my emergency fund fully funded? Am I living beneath my means?

I do buy grass fed beef and lamb, but don't eat it very often. It's very expensive. I also buy soup bones from farmers who sell grass fed beef. Now that I buy my produce on sale at Vallarta, I'm spending a lot less money on groceries. They have excellent specials. I wash it in baking soda.

My father is in perfect health, is 84 years old, and he doesn't eat organically. He has good eating habits, though. I would like to buy all organic, but I just can't afford it right now. It's more important to me to stay in budget.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Sometimes I'm pretty cynical (no really! :)) and I think well if all the money in the world becomes worthless (not likely unless it's invested in the stock market - then plenty likely) at least I'll still have my health (I hope). And that and all the other reasons is why organics.

[Ultralight]

I think you shouldn't do anything that goes against your values, period.


This would be rather impossible. I wouldn't drive or even ride in a car. I wouldn't eat anything with milk products or factory farmed products in it. I wouldn't pay taxes. I wouldn't buy anything with plastic. I would not go to work. I could go on and on. Living in this society makes you do things against your values just to survive.

Of course, some people's values are different. And some other people don't have any values to speak of! haha.

But if you can live 100% according to your values, more power to you!

[Gardenarian]

I guess it's a matter of how you define values. I think your values are reflected in your actions; if you want to know what you value, then look at how you spend your time and money.

So, I have a ton of shoes. Maybe 30 pairs (mostly secondhand.) I have had major issues with my feet and taking care of my feet and my mobility are really important to me.

Another example, I do value independent bookstores, and when I must buy a book I do so from my local shop. On the other hand, I don't want to own a lot of books, so 99% of my books come from the library.

I walk to whatever I can, but when it 102* outside I will drive my car if I must be somewhere, because I value my well-being above the small amount of carbon that will put out. (And honestly, I walk more because I enjoy it than for the environment.)

All these decisions we make everyday - how high we set the AC, how much time we spend giving to others, caring for ourselves...even little choices, like how and what we garden - these all deeply reflect our values.

I agree that frugality is a value, but how is that value actually manifested? We both might have the same food budget, but we'd likely spend it in very different ways.

It's kind of a reality check to look at what you really do - your values may not be exactly what you think! I love the idea of being self sufficient and doing DIY, but here I am getting my oil changed at OilStop...

(P.S. I love your signature quote, U.A.)

[Ultralight]

Good points, Gardenarian! You have a good lifestyle. I dig it!

I spend my money on gasoline, rent, utilities, student loan repayment, groceries, fishing bait & tackle, my dog, dating, and perhaps a few other things that escape my mind -- oh yeah, and taxes. I pay a lot in taxes.

It looks like I value getting by, fishing, and my dog -- and not getting in trouble with the IRS! ;)