Calling heath department on hoarding parents?

[Ultralight]

I have had this discussion with my sister a few times now. We both change stances on it each time, even if just a little.

Do you think it is wrong or right to call the authorities about my parents' hoarding if it is an immediate health threat to them or to the community?

[bae]

What authority do the authorities have over this sort of thing in your jurisdiction?

[Ultralight]

What authority do the authorities have over this sort of thing in your jurisdiction?

I don't know really... but my thought is that with all the animals and animal waste and the black mold growing all over and the lack of proper indoor plumbing my parents are just sitting ducks for some kind of bad disease.

[bae]

Where I live, the authorities have very little authority over this sort of thing, and problems like this are generally addressed by concerned family members, friends, and community members.

[herbgeek]

Are you parents elderly and could you get some support from any sort of senior services?

[Ultralight]

Where I live, the authorities have very little authority over this sort of thing, and problems like this are generally addressed by concerned family members, friends, and community members.

I try not to care about them. By that I mean I am trying to emotionally divest from their hoarding problem. This is much harder for my sister, though I obviously struggle with it too. I think the health department could condemn the place. Irony of ironies: My dad used to work for the health department. When we were kids he put a "Condemned for Unsanitary Conditions" sign on the door that he got from work, half in jest. He thought maybe it would make my sister and I clean the place. He couldn't face that it was my mom's hoarding that made it impossible to clean the house. He would also get fed up sometimes and shout: "I am going to take a garbage bag and throw everything in this house away!" My mom would laugh behind his back and say: "Oh...like one garbage bag would do it..."

This was before he decided: "Can't beat'em; join'em!" He became a hoarder too, largely, I think, to adapt to living with my mom.

I also wonder if maybe I could just say: "Look mom & dad, this place is not sanitary. If you do not deal with this situation we (my sis and I) might have to contact the authorities because this is a health hazard to you both."

[Ultralight]

Are you parents elderly and could you get some support from any sort of senior services?

My parents are in their late 60s. Is that still elderly? I am not sure what senior services is. I will google it.

[bae]

I think the health department could condemn the place.

Does the health department condemn private homes not being used for commercial purposes in your jurisdiction?



I also wonder if maybe I could just say: "Look mom & dad, this place is not sanitary. If you do not deal with this situation we (my sis and I) might have to contact the authorities because this is a health hazard to you both."

If my offspring made such a threat to me, I'd throw them off the property, and tell them good luck getting a warrant to have "authorities" with no jurisdiction even make entry to make an inspection.

I would not offer such threats myself unless I knew the specifics of the law in my county, knew the resources of the "authorities", and was willing to never speak with my parents again.

Social engineering is perhaps a nicer method than invoking the power of the "authorities", and may lead to better outcomes.

[Ultralight]

Yes, the health department condemns private property, homes and such. Happens often enough.

Social engineering? What do you mean?

[Ultralight]

Does the health department condemn private homes not being used for commercial purposes in your jurisdiction?




If my offspring made such a threat to me, I'd throw them off the property, and tell them good luck getting a warrant to have "authorities" with no jurisdiction even make entry to make an inspection.

I would not offer such threats myself unless I knew the specifics of the law in my county, knew the resources of the "authorities", and was willing to never speak with my parents again.

Social engineering is perhaps a nicer method than invoking the power of the "authorities", and may lead to better outcomes.

So if your offspring made a "threat" like that, why would you see it as a threat? Why would you not look around (at the animal waste and the black mold everywhere, etc.) and think... "My kid is right. I do need to do something."

[pinkytoe]

I am dealing with elderly in-laws in their 80s (not hoarders though) but they should no longer live or drive by themselves. No amount of calm discussion makes them even consider trying any other option and they get very offended if the topic even comes up. I am advised that as long as they are "of sound mind" that we cannot really do anything to force the issue. They are adults making their own decisions until unfotunately something happens like a bad fall or car accident. Seems like if it is a really bad situation with your parent's hoarding, that neighbors or someone anonymous would call them in on a code violation. That's what usually happens in my hood when people let their houses or yards go awry.

[Ultralight]

I am dealing with elderly in-laws in their 80s (not hoarders though) but they should no longer live or drive by themselves. No amount of calm discussion makes them even consider trying any other option and they get very offended if the topic even comes up. I am advised that as long as they are "of sound mind" that we cannot really do anything to force the issue. They are adults making their own decisions until unfotunately something happens like a bad fall or car accident. Seems like if it is a really bad situation with your parent's hoarding, that neighbors or someone anonymous would call them in on a code violation. That's what usually happens in my hood when people let their houses or yards go awry.

That is definitely an unfortunate situation with your in-laws. :( Something bad could happen to them, and then to know it could have been prevented...

The problem with my parents' neighborhood is that they live in a "pillbilly" town. Rural, 238 people. Lots of drugs. Lots of domestic violence (none between my mom and dad though). Numerous other people in the neighborhood live just as filthy. But I don't want my parents living that way. My sister really does not want them to live that way. She aspires to have a normal middle class life and her crazy, hoarding parents often stand in the way, especially with her wedding in September.

[bae]

So if your offspring made a "threat" like that, why would you see it as a threat?

Because you issued it as a threat. "If you don't do X, we'll call the authorities". That's a threat. Of force. Of lethal force actually, if followed down the chain far enough. People, especially elderly people, don't respond well to threats typically, it gets their back up and then you've probably lost the opportunity for rational discussion and coming up with a solution.

[Ultralight]

Because you issued it as a threat. "If you don't do X, we'll call the authorities". That's a threat. Of force. Of lethal force actually, if followed down the chain far enough. People, especially elderly people, don't respond well to threats typically, it gets their back up and then you've probably lost the opportunity for rational discussion and coming up with a solution.

I want to clarify that I have not actually said this to my parents. I have only thought of saying it.

My sister has done the rational discussion thing, which goes nowhere. My dad will not talk to me about it. Not that I have tried much with him. And my mom goes into immediate hysterics when the topic comes up.

[iris lilies]

Op I feel so sorry for what you are going through, but there is little you can do. You have already taken the proactive steps necessary, stepping back. You and you sister can both have a normal life, it will just have to be with minimal contact with your parents.

with no pets or children in the house, I would be able to say to myself, this is how they choose to live, so be it. Think about the final act, what will that be? Really if both of them are dead or institutionalized, cleaning out these places isn't that big a deal. Hire industrial dumpster, chuck it all in. Done.

I know that sounds overly simplistic to the point of absurdity and I suppose that it is. But if they have a little bit of money to accomplish this in their estate, not a big deal.

What happens to the pets is a bigger problem. can you convince them NOW to not take in any more pets? That way the pets will age out.

[bae]

My parents are in their late 60s. Is that still elderly? I am not sure what senior services is. I will google it.

If your area has a "family resources center" or some similar organization, it'd probably be worthwhile to drop in and have a chat with them to find out what is available in your neck of the woods for working through these sorts of problems.

[iris lilies]

These situations with elderly parents are very difficult. But. Treat them like any other boundary making interaction--set your own boundaries as to how much help you will give when the inevitable Bad Thing happens.

me--I am already looking forward to my last residence, a tiny place of 2 rooms with a patio for potted plants. And a cat, either inthe building or my own cat.

adults of sound mind get to live with their decisions about their lifestyle and residence. No guilting or shaming about "helping them" would be taken seriously by me.

DH's sister is in her 50's and she has multiple health problems and is largely incapacitated for physical work. Her husband, older by a decade, has dementia. Guess where they live!!!? Out on a farm!

Guess what they've got on the farm!!?? Dog. Cats. Chickens. Maybe still some bigger livestock, I don't know. They've got land that needs to have crops put in. And harvested. She cannot drive due to ill health. She will not ride with him in a car thinking he's not safe (yet he is still on the road. ) And on a tractor. She calls a taxi in from town for all of her transportation.

what makes me angry is that they have all the money they need to hire help or to buy a simple place in the bigger town, or to do BOTH. They could play at beings farmers and still have a clean an cosy town abode. Money is no problem!!

But they will not budge. Madness. Their son has a full time job and a wife with a full time job and a young family. They expect too much of him in helping with this no win situation.

[Ultralight]

Op I feel so sorry for what you are going through, but there is little you can do. You have already taken the proactive steps necessary, stepping back. You and you sister can both have a normal life, it will just have to be with minimal contact with your parents.

with no pets or children in the house, I would be able to say to myself, this is how they choose to live, so be it. Think about the final act, what will that be? Really if both of them are dead or institutionalized, cleaning out these places isn't that big a deal. Hire industrial dumpster, chuck it all in. Done.

I know that sounds overly simplistic to the point of absurdity and I suppose that it is. But if they have a little bit of money to accomplish this in their estate, not a big deal.

What happens to the pets is a bigger problem. can you convince them NOW to not take in any more pets? That way the pets will age out.

I don't even want to think about the pets. I have a rescue dog and a soft spot for dogs. I also like cats. But there is no way I could afford to take them all in. I wonder how I could bring this issue up to them? If the pets don't "age out" then many might meet the needle, which is heart wrenching.

Could I say: "You two are not going to live forever. What will be done with your many, many cats and dogs when you solve The Great Mystery?"

My dad has told my sis that he will be leaving a small chunk of change to her, along with some valuables like firearms. Perhaps that will be enough to cover the remediation costs. But the house could be condemned. I have known of fire departments doing controlled burns. My sis and I joke (darkly) that we could donate the house to a fire department and they could train new firemen in a controlled burn situation.

[Ultralight]

If your area has a "family resources center" or some similar organization, it'd probably be worthwhile to drop in and have a chat with them to find out what is available in your neck of the woods for working through these sorts of problems.

This is a good idea. I think I will do this.

[Ultralight]

These situations with elderly parents are very difficult. But. Treat them like any other boundary making interaction--set your own boundaries as to how much help you will give when the inevitable Bad Thing happens.

me--I am already looking forward to my last residence, a tiny place of 2 rooms with a patio for potted plants. And a cat, either inthe building or my own cat.

adults of sound mind get to live with their decisions about their lifestyle and residence. No guilting or shaming about "helping them" would be taken seriously by me.

DH's sister is only 58 years old and she has multiple health problems and is largely incapacitated for physical work. Her husband, older at nrpearly 70, has dementia. Guess where they live!!!? Out on a farm!

Guess what they've got on the farm!!?? Dog. Cats. Chickens. Maybe still some bigger livestock, I don't know. They got land that needs to have crops put in. And harvested. She cannot drive due to ill health. She will not ride with him in a car thinking he's not safe (yet he is still on the road. ) And on a tractor. She calls a taxi in from town for all of her transportation.

what makes me angry is that they have all the money they need to hire help or to buy a simple place in the bigger town, or to do both. Money is no problem. But they will not budge. Madness. Their son has a full time job and a wife with a full time job and a young son. They expect too much of him in helping with this no win situation.

This just sounds like total craziness! Recklessness. Why?! You know? Why...?

[bae]

I have known of fire departments doing controlled burns. My sis and I joke (darkly) that we could donate the house to a fire department and they could train new firemen in a controlled burn situation.

We don't do live-fire training on houses with hoarder issues, it's too dangerous for the firefighters. Considerable chance of entrapment/entanglement. I'm prepping a house right now to use for training this fall, and we're removing all the junk first, and it was mostly-empty to begin with.

Also consider that firefighters will be quite hesitant to perform a search of the home if it is burning for real if it has a hoarding problem....

[iris lilies]

This just sounds like total craziness! Recklessness. Why?! You know? Why...?

haha well, to provide an object lesson to many people. For every senior who refuses to leave their unable-to-maintain lifestyle, there are 3 others watching the shitstorm and are convinced to take appropriate action for their own lives. Or, let's hope.

[Ultralight]

We don't do live-fire training on houses with hoarder issues, it's too dangerous for the firefighters. Considerable chance of entrapment/entanglement. I'm prepping a house right now to use for training this fall, and we're removing all the junk first, and it was mostly-empty to begin with.

Also consider that firefighters will be quite hesitant to perform a search of the home if it is burning for real if it has a hoarding problem....

Very good info to know! If possible, maybe we'll just empty it out and then ask about fire training. If no dice, I guess we can sell it for a few thousand bucks and wish the new owner good luck.

[Teacher Terry]

I was a social worker for awhile & call the health department and the state or county offices of aging services. They will step in if it is unsanitary/dangerous for their own welfare and that of the pets involved. However, be prepared for the reaction from your parents. You could do it anonymously.

[iris lilies]

Just a few weeks ago a house up the street from my main flower garden was condemed for occupancy.all were forced to move out, but it was a rental. While the house itself was declared unfit for habitation, that was the tool used to move out the thugs who lived there. Thugs were causing lotsa crime, shooting each other, pulling in their no good nick associates, spilling over in multi generations with no job. Their old grandpa rented the place.

The main driver for neighborhood improvement, a yuppie urban pioneer guy, worked with city officials to get them out.

had there not been so many calls for service of law enforcement there, I doubt there would have been interest amoung city agencies to move them out.

right behind them is a true shack, practically tar paper, that lacks adequate plumbing. During very cold spells the old inhabitant, Bob, stays with a kind neighbor who kicks him out each morning after using a bed, toilet,and water. In no world would bob's tiny shack be considered appropriate housing in America. But Bob keeps his head down doesn't cause trouble, and we all accept him and his tar paper shack as a neighborhood fixture. It would not surprise me if Bob is a hoarder because I do see stacks of junk through his windows.

Interestingly enough, this same set of thugs lived inthe house we bought in 2007 and they were just as bad then. Multiple generations living there and just one job amoung them. Their old grandpa (probably younger than me, haha) supported them all. They lived like filthy pigs and we emptied 1.5 industrial dumpsters to clean out the house And the yard. Mainly the yardwherebtheynhad thrown used liquor bottles and dirty diapers for years. Pigs. Filthy. And criminals.

[Ultralight]

Just a few weeks ago a house up the street from my main flower garden was condemed for occupancy.all were forced to move out, but it was a rental. While the house itself was declared unfit for habitation, that was the tool used to move out the thugs who lived there. Thugs were causing lotsa crime, shooting each other, pulling in their no good nick associates, spilling over in multi generations with no job. Their old grandpa rented the place.

The main driver for neighborhood improvement, a yuppie urban pioneer guy, worked with city officials to get them out.

had there not been so many calls for service of law enforcement there, I doubt there would have been interest amoung city agencies to move them out.

right behind them is a true shack, practically tar paper, that lacks adequate plumbing. During very cold spells the old inhabitant, Bob, stays with a kind neighbor who kicks him out each morning after using a bed, toilet,and water. In no world would bob's tiny shack be considered appropriate housing in America. But Bob keeps his head down doesn't cause trouble, and we all accept him and his tar paper shack as a neighborhood fixture. It would not surprise me if Bob is a hoarder because I do see stacks of junk through his windows.

Interestingly enough, this same set of thugs lived inthe house we bought in 2007 and they were just as bad then. Multiple generations living there and just one job amoung them. Their old grandpa (probably younger than me, haha) supported them all. They lived like filthy pigs and we emptied 1.5 industrial dumpsters to clean out the house And the yard. Mainly the yardwherebtheynhad thrown used liquor bottles and dirty diapers for years. Pigs. Filthy. And criminals.


Where on earth do you live? This sounds like a dang nightmare!

[iris lilies]

Where on earth do you live? This sounds like a dang nightmare!

i live in the urban core in St. Louis. My own neighborhood is yuppified with new $500,000 houses just built across the street from where I live. But we have property nearby where we have our main gardens. Gardens are on the bad edge of a transitional neighborhood, hence the cheap price, hence that's why we can affords houses with no tenants.

well, but the lack of plumbing/ heating thing is actually a St. Louis city wide issue. Very few people know this and would be shocked to know, but even today one of the grand old houses forming our signature neighborhood look, our brand so to speak, still lacks indoor heat. The guy who stays there moves in with his girlfriend during the winter.

Here's the image everone uses about our neighborhood and the house without heat is on far right: http://tinyurl.com/pcmxqcx

[Ultralight]

i live in the urban core in St. Louis. My own neighborhood is yuppified with new $500,000 houses just built across the street from where I live. But we have property nearby where we have our main gardens. Gardens are on the bad edge of a transitional neighborhood, hence the cheap price, hence that's why we can affords houses with no tenants.

Oh, sounds like a mixed bag. But you have a good set-up.

Here in Columbus, OH I know a handful of people who are speculating about the next "transitional" neighborhood. Some want to buy a city block's worth of houses "in transition," tear down the fences to combine yards, and have something of an intentional community/cooperative living situation. Interesting idea. Others worry that this will mean one of two things: Displacing the current residents (pricing them out ultimately) or speculating wrong and ending up in a neighborhood full of riff-raff.

[frugal-one]

My parents are in their late 60s. Is that still elderly? I am not sure what senior services is. I will google it.

According to the World Health Organization....

The age of 60 or 65, roughly equivalent to retirement ages in most developed countries, is said to be the beginning of old age.

[pinkytoe]

60-I had no clue I was elderly now!! This whole conversation has me thinking...

[Ultralight]

60-I had no clue I was elderly now!! This whole conversation has me thinking...

Thinking on what?

[JaneV2.0]

"60-I had no clue I was elderly now!!"

Yeah--I'm doddering toward oblivion, myself. rrrrr

[ApatheticNoMore]

If 35 is the start of middle age then I guess it makes sense. But I don't think 60 is usually falling apart or senile, in fact I think it's usually NOT. But you can get AARP discounts! Though I suppose it could be senility, what the hoarding parents probably have here is a certain psychology, somewhat independent of age.

My parents were hoarders (well are - only one parent is still living). They didn't collect really or buy all that much, they just never organized or got rid of stuff. I'm beginning to think organization might be way underrated, if you don't actually have a lot of stuff, are unlikely to become an extreme minimalist, and everything always tends to be a mess. But that doesn't really describe most of the hoarder situations, like my parents as well, who never get rid of stuff.

[freshstart]

Adult Protective Services do not tend to have the legal teeth to change a situation. I've spent 18 yrs as some form of home health nurse and I saw things much worse and dangerous then you see on those shows. The social worker calls AP, they make an assessment, it has to be bad beyond belief before they even take a case, usually they look around and state the person is competent to make these choices. I had a 101 yo Chinese woman dying, living with her "caretakers", two schizophrenic adult children not taking meds. She spoke no English, children a bit. She had scabies and a bed bug infestation, rats in her room and other assorted bugs. this was the clean room of the house, piles of stuff taller than me to wiggle around to get to her. It was November, she was usually naked or had one t-shirt (that said something like Spring Break 1992!) and had no bottoms, incontinent, no one would use free adult diapers. The kids had to take all of the soft things in the room to be cleaned in commercial washers and dryers and the bug people came (we paid for this). The kids came home with all the bedding soaking wet, despite repeated instruction it had to be dried at high heat. We ended up buying her bedding and I gave her a huge bag of my old clothes. They refused to use the scabies meds. They claimed to be feeding her, she maybe weighed 70 lbs. They let me see kitchen, i opened fridge, food somehow so old it rotted even in there and liquified, dripped out when you opened to door. no other food noted. I cannot talk about the roaches. We donated Ensure, I drew a line on the can each time I went because one can was lasting over 4 days despite having plenty more cans and when I'd open a new one, she was so hungry she drank the whole thing. So she was basically being starved, usually found naked in Nov on bed with no blankets that we had bought. The son, was wearing the clothes of mine I dropped off. She was not treated for scabies. The kitchen and BR pipes were not hooked to anything, if water was run, it ended up in a bucket. Toilet non-functioning, I will spare you where everyone's waste went but clue: not outside. And furnace broken, no heat in Nov in NY. No way for fire dept or other emergency help to get to her at all quickly. Advanced cancer, a Chinese church had volunteer interpreters, she always complained of severe pain, being cold and hungry. Adult children obviously too ill to do anything about this.

Social worker and I thought we finally had a slam dunk Adult Protective case, neglect of elder, condemnable living situation, etc. Without an interpreter, the patient was deemed competent to make her own choice to live there, house not condemnable, they did not take her case. Un-effin'-believeable, right? The only thing missing was physical assault and sexual abuse.

We paid to have furnace fixed. Finally, one day the interpreter told me of patient's suffering, "time for hospital" was translated and she nodded her head 'yes'. I had 911 there so fast, two schizophrenic adult children could not handle this, demanded she not go, I held up 3 day can of ensure with bugs in it, she was naked, in pain, lying in days worth of shit and so sorry, AP said she's competent, she wants to go, back away, she is going. I felt horrible doing that to the children, they could not grasp any sort of reality but the patient comes first. She was on Hospice but not a DNR, so full code status. She was dying shortly after going to hospital, she translated clearly she wanted to be allowed to die peacefully and pain free, no CPR. For whatever reason, the hospital would only listen to the mentally ill son, not the patient. Very close to dying, hospital asked for me and her home social worker to give it one last try with the son. He was sobbing, "do not let my mommy die, please. Who will take care of me and my sister?" Good question, pal. We basically strong armed him into a DNR status and she died peacefully the next day. As for the children, the city's mobile mental health crisis team had been dissolved. So we bounced them back to AP, fairly certain nothing would change. And there were no more resources to help them as they refused to seek a doctor's care. One of the worst cases ever, and I often think how we failed those children.

my point after all that is to check first to see what Adult Protective laws are in your state, talk to the dept that condemns housing but even if it's as bad or worse than above, be prepared for them to be deemed competent, choosing to live their way and nothing may happen. I've seen this a lot, children ask us to call AP, get the house condemned and maybe once or twice in my 18 yrs in 2 different cities, I've seen action taken. But those cases had minor children involved. Once you play the AP card, how will you and your sister feel if nothing changes but now your folks are furious at you guys for trying to take action? The fall out I've seen was pretty divisive.

you are in a very difficult situation. Maybe you can get them a case worker from social services whom they come to trust and chip away at this as a team? I just wanted you to know, that at least in NY, a state with pretty good social programs, even we have little to help people like your parents. Best of luck.

[razz]

Old age is where you define it for yourself. I have never accepted someone else's definition as some people are old at 30 years and some friends are going strong in their 90's.

Bae's point is well taken with the legalities of dealing first with the role of authorities of any kind. As far as the OP's family members, leave them to their own issues until there are health problems and needed decisions will be made then. As others have noted, as long as they are of sound mind, comparatively speaking anyway, little can be accomplished and you might well be forcing them to become even more resistant by infringing on their independence.

[Simone]

they did not take her case. Un-effin'-believeable, right?
Freshstart, I believe it. It's been my experience with AP, too.
And thank you for the work you do. Few of us can imagine the situations you find yourself in, much less enter into them ourselves.

[chrissieq]

me--I am already looking forward to my last residence, a tiny place of 2 rooms with a patio for potted plants. And a cat, either inthe building or my own cat.



I regularly picture myself in a small house - with a bit of space for a garden. I hesitate to think about an apartment because I can't imagine not having my dog with me. Because I know he will live to be 30 in people years:D! When I can't sleep I imagine the furniture I will take with me and what will be sold/donated/given away.

[freshstart]

they did not take her case. Un-effin'-believeable, right?
Freshstart, I believe it. It's been my experience with AP, too.
And thank you for the work you do. Few of us can imagine the situations you find yourself in, much less enter into them ourselves.

thanks, I loved it but got sick and can't work. It feels so weird to believe I'm really not doing this anymore. It's been pretty much since Sept, but I still plan my next work day schedule in my head, lol

[Chicken lady]

Ultralightangler,

You can't force your parents to get better. Any action you take that I not desired by your parents is akin to depriving an alcoholic of alcohol. You can drag him out of the bar, you can pour out the liquor, you can take the car keys, you can drop him in the middle of dry county, but unless he wants to quit drinking, the first thing he is going to do when he gets loose from you is find a way to drink.

If you remove your parents from their home and put them in a nice clean, sparse, comfortably furnished apartment with a few belongings, your mother will immediately begin to hoard the new place. Probably much more intensively than she was Hoarding the old place. And she will hate you. She will not trust you at all and she will lie to you. You have to know this from reading, but I'm not sure you really understand.

So if you truly believe your parent's lives are in danger, and it is more important to you that they live longer than that they live as they wish , then yes, start calling people. The fire department may be your best bet. But don't expect to have a relationship with them afterwards or to solve their problems.

Your best option may be finding an agency or organization that will require them to make SOME improvements in order to stay put, reporting them, and then letting your sister be the "good guy" who helps them. They will still hate you, but she may get them to make some progress in their thoughts and behavior. Or she may not.

I'm sorry. Mental illness is really awful.

I think I would try to get them to recognize any problem/area for change. Start by listening. Hey mom, why are you saving this box? Uh huh. Do you know you have a whole bunch of other boxes like this over here? Ok. So, do you need this one too? Ok. Then make a suggestion: Can we put them all together? I'd really like to wipe off this part of the counter. Would it be ok if we moved the box so I could do that? No? Do you think it would be good if the counter was a little cleaner? Just keep backing up until you find a point of agreement and then try to build from it slowly. Because the point is to get her used to the idea of opening up some space to clean. If it's as bad as you make it sound, she may not neccessarily be doing any actual cleaning yet. Just getting used to the idea may have to be the first step.

[freshstart]

I don't know why I didn't mention this sooner, compulsive hoarders share some of the same traits as those with OCD. For years, paxil has been prescribed for both conditions. And the patients I had, that the doctor would prescribe that, did get a bit better. It wasn't a good population to to use for an example, since these are dying people. But we get people in the early stages of illness and sometimes the frustrated family is able to get them to try paxil, after a few weeks, they can usually start purging together, at least clean up hazardous areas.

thank you for writing about your experience, it's making me realize I need to address mine.

my mom has mild OCD and I hate to say this word about her, but she is also a hoarder. Her doctor has tried to get her to go see someone and give her medication. My mom ignored this advice for years, she thinks if she is "officially" diagnosed as a hoarder, then we are going to start dumping her stuff. Despite no one doing that because we know the response. Now it's kind of late for therapy, but she can still be medicated. Both of these traits affect her daily living and if a mild, generic SSRI can at least make her feel better emotionally, then why not? She takes meds 4 times a day, despite using a pill box (open door, take out pills, done), she has this nonsensical system that makes pill taking an hour long process. Pointless, using this amount of time when she has so little left, pointless. Her sister and her friends have been coming in and starting the process of de-hoarding her room. She finally has the most beautiful room, something she never though she would have, it's where she wants to die but the papers and crap really bother her. Take the paxil, trust that the pill box is correctly poured, and we will go through your room, item by item until it is once again a peaceful place to die in. Imagine those two things helped by a fairly benign pill, hours and hours of time no longer wasted and feeling peaceful where you are.

we share a primary, HIPAA went out the window years ago, I see her this week and trying again for meds. Thanks again Ultralite! And I hope maybe something like this could help your family

http://www.compulsive-hoarding.org/Treatment-options.html

[sweetana3]

It was an eye opener to watch selected episodes of Hoarder on TV. People would give up kids, health, life even to have the stuff. The show dealt with a variety of relatives and reactions from friends and neither had any affect on the hoarder. The professionals acknowledged the difficulty and took it slow with counseling along the way (expensive and not often available).

All I can say is pick your battles carefully. Unless there is counseling to go along with any medications, the person will not change. No "logic" in the world appears to work. It is a brain wiring issue.

[Miss Cellane]

There is some helpful information at the Children of Hoarders website: http://childrenofhoarders.com/wordpress/

But this is a a mental illness, and until that is treated, progress will be minimal.

Before you call in government assistance, try to find out what might happen. Say, for example, they will condemn your parents' house. Is this really what you want to have happen? Your parents homeless, taking a huge financial loss? You might get them help, but it might come at a huge cost for them. Do try to find out what the options are before you call in the authorities. Once they have been notified, you can't undo that.

[Ultralight]

Okay, I really appreciate everyone's insights, concerns, and general solidarity.

I reflected a lot on this since I originally posted it. I find this hard to admit, but a large part of my urge to get the authorities involved comes from a need for revenge -- for some retribution -- and I know that is not ideal. I know that is not about helping them.

In the far recesses of my mind I am thinking: "If their house gets condemned that would be a fitting punishment for making my sister and I grow up in that hoard and for all problems that came along with it. This is my chance to teach them a g-d d-amned lesson they'll never forget!"

But then I have to remind myself that my mom is very, very mentally ill -- and not just with compulsive hoarding -- but with depression, anxiety, some "mild" delusions (she believes in "shapeshifters" that are human by day, coyote by night, for example).

I have a real problem with being wronged and then not being able to do anything about it. I hold grudges for eternities.

My parents' hoarding meant:
-I could not have dates over in high school, so I did not date; it was just easier that way
-There were puddles of cat pee all over the carpet, so I would often step in it and wet my foot or sock unless I wore shoes everywhere
-Cat vomit could be anywhere at any time, like in between the couch cushions, in a crumpled blanket, etc.
-The basement floor was covered in cat feces
-Rooms were unusable or piled high with old clothes
-The toilet had to be flushed with a bucket of water
-The bathroom and carpets had black mold all over them
-Cats would frequently jump on counters and the stove and eat from the container or pots and pans where my mom was preparing food, then she'd feed the food to my sister and I
-My clothes were constantly wrinkled and covered in cat and dog hair
-My house was shamefully dirty-looking and stinky and I'd never have friends over; I was embarrassed
-There were bugs in my cereal; I have eaten so many bugs in my life
-The hoard made it hard for me to focus on anything while in the house, like it gave me some ADD or something
-I saw my little sister move out the day after she finished high school and go live with her drunken friends 2 hours away because she could not stand living there a day longer
-I spent so much time feeling disgusted by the mess -- all the dirty dishes, the spills not cleaned up, filth just everywhere

Okay, you probably get what I am saying by now.

But my bottom line, after a lot of reflection and self-honesty, is that my plan to call the health dept. or the fire dept. and get the house condemned came from my desire for revenge, my desire to punish them. Having this vengeful urge is not mentally healthy for me. So my intention is to redouble my efforts to simply emotionally divest from them. I am not sure how to do this, but I know it will take practice.

When my parents pass away, I will sport a hazmat suit and then I'll throw everything in that house away. That will be when I finally am able to just let go of it all. That tense, angry feeling in my chest will then relax. I'll be able to move on and make that hoard a distant memory, maybe even something I darkly joke about with close friends.

Thoughts?

[Chicken lady]

Walk away. Work on your own mental health. My grandfather was an abusive alcoholic. He's been dead for years and my father is still angry. When his second wife went into assisted living she tried to give some things to our family. Nice furniture and books and such. My father told my mother she was not to bring anything from that house into his home. My brother and I got some small items - mostly that originally belonged to my grandmother, and I still put them away when dad visits.

I am sorry no one rescued you when you were a kid.

[Float On]

Jake, I'm sorry you as a child had to live in those conditions. You are showing great strength by not seeking revenge. Setting boundaries is a good thing like never stepping foot near the property, only be willing to meet with them on neutral ground, making choices about how you live your own life, having a plan in place for when the time comes for the final clean-up.

[Ultralight]

Walk away. Work on your own mental health. My grandfather was an abusive alcoholic. He's been dead for years and my father is still angry. When his second wife went into assisted living she tried to give some things to our family. Nice furniture and books and such. My father told my mother she was not to bring anything from that house into his home. My brother and I got some small items - mostly that originally belonged to my grandmother, and I still put them away when dad visits.

I am sorry no one rescued you when you were a kid.

Thank you for saying that, all of that. You are right.

[Ultralight]

Jake, I'm sorry you as a child had to live in those conditions. You are showing great strength by not seeking revenge. Setting boundaries is a good thing like never stepping foot near the property, only be willing to meet with them on neutral ground, making choices about how you live your own life, having a plan in place for when the time comes for the final clean-up.

Thanks.

Yes, I'll need a plan eventually to deal with a final clean up. Maybe just having a real plan will set my mind at ease and let me just kind of disengage in a mentally healthy way, and then reengage for the final clean up, whenever it comes.

[Float On]

Thanks.

Yes, I'll need a plan eventually to deal with a final clean up. Maybe just having a real plan will set my mind at ease and let me just kind of disengage in a mentally healthy way, and then reengage for the final clean up, whenever it comes.

That plan could be you doing the physical labor and releasing all the anger as you toss everything or it could be hiring the job done by a clean-up crew, a simple closure. It might be worth visiting with a counselor a few times to discuss and talk through both options and what is best for you in the end.

[rodeosweetheart]

I posted before I read your last post. Sorry, I think you've done some excellent self-reflection.
Yeah, so sorry for your childhood pain with your parents, that must have been very hard.

[JaneV2.0]

You might consult a local animal shelter to see if they will take any pets your parents have remaining. If the animals are being neglected, they can be seized. I know in Oregon, the humane society is very good about rescuing and rehoming neglected animals from hoarding situations.

[ApatheticNoMore]

bae is right about the risks of calling the authorities in my view (although you might want to talk to Rob about the cops :)), you never know what might happen, they can use deadly force. I've called the authorities but on drug use making people 1) violent to others or another time 2) drug use and a suicide attempt. Regret that? Nah, but there was an immediate danger of course.

Even though I said my parents were hoarders it never got to the extreme you describe, which is not to say it wasn't bad, I mean there was some line that was never crossed with regard to sanitation, so no matter how messy things were, and how much junk there was, dishes got cleaned etc.. No pet pee etc., although most of the time growing up their were no pets either.

I don't recognize most of the descriptions of what motivates hoarders in my parents so I really think it's all BS :). Ok, ok, what applies to some people might not apply to others, I know. Love of stuff? Nah. But thinking stuff might be useful someday? Yea. Attachment to some distant past with a great loss? Not really, but some level of minor depression perhaps (maybe some people's very lives feel like a loss). But more just a feeling of overwhelm and hopelessness about the whole thing. A feeling of complete failure as a human being for being unable to keep the place clean whenever thinking about it (I suppose akin to what some very overweight and unhappy people might feel when they step on the scale), and a feeling of immensity of the task ahead. I think the feeling of failure of being unable to keep something clean has a gender component, like it's worse if you're a woman, because even when they appear liberated, many women secretly grew up thinking it was their job. If the place wasn't clean it wasn't really both partners fault ....

Do I obsess on my parents hoarding? No. You know why? Because they were so completely messed up in other ways, that hoarding was really a very small component of their messed up-ness! I don't mean they were bad really but .....

[freshstart]

First of all, I am so sorry you and your sister had to grow up like that. I wonder if CPS had gotten involved, would your parents have shaped up (probably not without medication and therapy) or would you and you sister been taken out? Would that have been for the best or could you have been separated and placed in different foster homes? At any rate, you were a kid, you deserved all the things that went along with being a kid and you in no way got them, I am very sorry for that.

2 thoughts- hoarding compulsion has been in the DSM V since 2013, it is considered a mental disorder. So they should qualify for therapy and meds under their health insurance. In NY, if insurance covers any medical disease they have to cover mental health disorders the same, same number of visits allowed at same co-pay as seeing a primary, I believe this to be national, not sure. Second- do you have any emotional closeness, do you chat, go places with them, visit (not out of obligation) regularly? If you get nothing but negative feelings and intense stress from your relationship, going beyond the hoarding you alluded to, I would say there is no shame in walking away. I would leave your number for emergencies, an explanation that this dynamic is not healthy for you and you are done, I'd give the name of someone to call if they are open to help, then turn around, walk away and start putting the energy you had to put into them, into making your own life as happy and healthy as possible. This does not make you cold or cruel, call once a month if doing so is healthy for you, they failed you on what sounds like every level. Even if they are sick, one of them was probably on the ball enough at various times to realize they were sucking at parents and needed help. And at those lucid times, they took no action, I would guess. If you do not want these two relationships, it is 100% ok. Time for you to excise the bad, take in the good and create that simple life you've been talking about.

[Radicchio]

Ultralite, Sorry to read about your experiences growing up---truly awful, and you have reason to feel angry and betrayed by your parents. At the same time, there is a saying that roughly states, "Revenge is like drinking poison and expecting the other guy to die." Plus, even if you called the authorities and they condemned the home and forced your parents to leave, would you really get any satisfaction? You still wouldn't get what you probably would want or deserve. You would not, of course, get your childhood and adolescence back. But it would also be very unlikely that you would get an apology or admission that they had wronged you in any way. I doubt they are capable of that kind of self-reflection. So what's the point? I agree with others' comments about just letting go and getting on with your own life.

If you're concerned about their safety or anyone else's, then by all means look into what resources are available and let the appropriate agencies deal with it. It sounds like your parents have severe mental issues.

[Kestra]

Jake:
I realized that my subconscious had been mulling over your story all day, and tonight my thoughts began to crystalize and I had to respond.
I've told you something of my own childhood, and while it certainly wasn't as severely bad as yours, there were some definite similarities. The whole couldn't date, couldn't have people over - oh yes, that was my life as well. I actually didn't even know that people went out and did stuff until after high school.
The mental health issues are luckily being currently medicated, I think, but they weren't when I was a kid. There were incidents.

One of the big things, which you didn't explicitly state, but is abundantly clear from your story, is how you couldn't count on your parents at all. I've so been there. I usually felt like the third parent - all the worry and responsibility, with none of the rights. It's hard to be a kid when it seems that the adults around you are incompetent.

There's something about having parents who didn't have your back that twists up your psyche. My sister (8 years younger) and I have been discussing this in the last year, as the abuse she suffered was brought back to the surface recently, and we really hadn't ever talked about our experiences before. We realized that we shared similar issues such as dreams/nightmares of parental indifference - the ones where you are being kidnapped or are injured and they just don't care at all. There were real life instances of this as well for her. I just became super independent and detached. She bore a greater burden of abuse. I wasn't able to protect her.

Anyway as we became teens/young adults, another similarity we experienced was that we didn't feel we deserved anything (like even basic legal things, like not to be assaulted) or had any right to get what we wanted or needed. We discussed it recently mostly in terms of abusive and inappropriate relationships, and things of that nature. Our mother is like the supreme anti-feminist. We grew up with the impression that we'd be lucky to have any guy pay any attention to us at all, so if one did we'd better just take that, regardless of how we were treated, or how much we hated the guy. (It wasn't until my 20s that I realized I had a right to like and choose a guy I dated.) But I'm sure it affected us in other ways, too - my avoidance of university for example, my fear of being noticed or being assertive in anyway.

This stuff can affect your life so much. And whereas I can mostly avoid, and my sister can be completely estranged, you have an ongoing situation which must weigh on you heavily. I don't know what the solution is. People say counselling but I'd be hypocritical to strongly recommend that as I've avoided it myself.

But sometimes it can help to just realize that your childhood may be holding you back in your adult life - making you feel unworthy of good things, making you feel that you need to settle for whatever, and shouldn't be discontent or strive for more, because you don't have a right to be happy, you feel that you don't have any power, that you're not the type of person who does whatever it is that the ideal you would be doing. (Actually that Playing Big book is kind of along those lines.)

I know this is super long and personal. Just my rambling thoughts on the topic. I could have shared this privately, but although I'm addressing your situation, I know other people have similar bad childhoods and maybe writing this openly will be helpful for someone. At least knowing that they aren't the only one who didn't have the cliche happy childhood may be some comfort. Sadly that does tends to make me feel a bit better about my background.

[Simplemind]

Kestra +1. You are not alone. This is bringing up a lot of stuff for me.

[herbgeek]

Kestra, my parents are not hoarders, but so much of what you wrote resonates with me also, particular the having to settle because no one would want me, not wanting to draw attention, the parental indifference. Thank you for sharing your story. I was told I was too loud, and too smart and boys wouldn't like me unless I pretended to be someone else who wasn't smart. I had a mother who was so wrapped up in impressing people - sometimes ones she didn't even know- that she ignored the needs in her own family. I learned very early not to ask for anything. I went without a lot of basics so that my mother could have Hummels and new furniture every few years. When I brought some of this up as an adult, my mother's response was "well you didn't ASK". Ironically, now that my mother is in her 80's, she's trying to unload a lot of these purchases and no one in the family is interested in them. I heard her say "why did I spend money on all this?"

[catherine]

I appreciate your honesty, Jake. My experience was similar in some regards. My childhood was chaotically alcoholic. While my mother wasn't a hoarder, she just devoted herself to trying to get my dad to stop drinking, and so everything else was neglected--housekeeping, meals, laundry, etc. I, too, suffered from the fear that friends would stop by (which, of course, they didn't), or fear that I would come home from school to find my parents yelling, with all the shades drawn, leaving my brothers and I to have cereal for dinner. I never, ever thought my mother was alcoholic, too, but my aunt (my father's sister) has lately been trying to thrust upon me, after all these years, the fact that my mother was the alcoholic who got my father to start drinking--(kind of like Days of Wine and Roses in a gender reversal). I don't know why at this point in her life she has to upend my perception of my mother as being the sober, long-suffering wife, but anyway, maybe that does account for why my home was SO chaotic.

However, my mother was the one with the moment of clarity when I was about 12 and she divorced my father--a really taboo move back in the 60s, esp if you were Catholic, which we were. But I swear to God it was like the black veil of death being lifted, and I had an astoundingly happy high school life (since most kids hate high school, I guess that's the silver lining of having a childhood that sucks by comparison).

I have always advised people who "stay together for the kids" NOT to do them ANY favors. Honestly. I thank God and my mother every day for her courage.

But in terms of what you express, I think you've gotten very wise words. Yes, put their lives behind you and get on with your own. Follow your own bliss. And try to be forgiving, as hard as it might be, because resentment will eat you alive.

[Radicchio]

As far as counseling, I would have to agree that it's not for everyone. However, if you should decide to pursue it, try to get a good referral. Just as in any profession or vocation, there are good and bad psychologists and counselors. I personally would find a Psy.D. or Ph.D. in Psychology, due to the advanced training and techniques that they can employ. Even then, you need to watch out for those who have you come in every week (or even more than once a week) and air your grievances without challenging any of those or providing concrete examples of how to change the negative thinking into something more productive. Some will just keep you coming back indefinitely, and there is some relief at the time having a listening ear--but you don't move forward that way. In fact, a good psychologist should challenge some of your thoughts and make you examine them more closely. They also can employ various homework assignments or do some testing in the office to help clarify a course of treatment/counseling. If I were to consult a psychologist, I would ask early on how many sessions he/she felt I would need, as that would be an indication of an intent to be more than a sounding board and that they will do their job and give you the tools to deal with your issues from childhood.

I don't believe everyone needs counseling to move past family of origin issues, but I also know that some benefit immensely. I have worked with and around psychologists and psychiatrists for many years and seen both the good and the bad. If you find a good one, he/she can be remarkably effective. OTOH, I have never personally engaged the services of one and believe that many people can be aware enough to manage on their own. Or, maybe just a few sessions to provide some ideas on how to cope and even thrive.

[rodeosweetheart]

Apropos of this thread, I found this interesting NPR article on "what constitutes 'elderly'"

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/12/174124992/an-age-old-problem-who-is-elderly

[JaneV2.0]

I don't mind being called old--like "fat" it's a simple descriptor; "elderly" is something else. It indicates a certain feebleness.

[rodeosweetheart]

right, that's how I feel, too! The age has definitely risen as my own age has risen, so that at 59, someone in their 60's does not seem the least bit elderly to me...

[Tussiemussies]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I have a close friend who has a mother that is a hoarder Her and her brother tried to do something about it at one point and her mother felt what I would call betrayed by her children and she was mad as heck...consider that this could really put a rift between you and your parents. Also where will they live if they are evicted. They are older now and probably would have more of a hard time with this...everyone is free to live as they want....Just my opinion though!

[Rachel]

Reading this whole conversation with great interest. I became fascinated with this topic when I noticed that a close friend had evolved into a hoarder. From everything I have read, seen, and heard about, hoarders almost never change---and the ones who do improve and maintain the improvement are living with someone full time (family) who helps them manage their emotions and behaviors minute to minute, day to day.

Jake, and everyone who had to grow up in a hoarding home---I feel bad for you. I can't even imagine how awful that would be.

Jake--you seem really committed to thoughtful reflection and careful decisions. Somehow you seem to have come through this with some amazing strengths. I think you might be able to let go of that tight feeling in your chest without having to wait for several decades until your parents pass away. That is what I hope for you.

Totally agree with the people who are affirming disengagement. Do what *you* need to be healthy and content.

[Ultralight]

I really appreciate so much -- so, so much -- or what you all said here. Great insights, kind words, and general moral support. Thank you.

This has helped me to come up with a plan, for myself, to deal with this situation for myself.

[freshstart]

Jake--you seem really committed to thoughtful reflection and careful decisions. Somehow you seem to have come through this with some amazing strengths. I think you might be able to let go of that tight feeling in your chest without having to wait for several decades until your parents pass away. That is what I hope for you.



This, exactly this

[larknm]

My father toward the end of his life was a dangerous driver. He couldn't see well enough, had Parkinson's and a big need to get out of the house. Relatives told their kids not to go in a car with him. He had no clue. I told him in a calm, neutral way that I was going to have his driver's license retested and when I got back to my home across the country, he called and told me his life would be over and he would kill himself if I did that. He took it that I was trying to get back at him for things he had done to me. I wasn't. After he told me he'd kill himself, I didn't have the nerve to do that about his driver's license. I think my saying that to him was one of the very few times in his adult life that someone had brought up limits to him, like he should set them. Obviously he knew he couldn't pass the driver's test again. So I agree with all those who say if you try to change the situation with your parents, it will make your relationship worse. On the other hand, for the animals, I would do it in a flash.

[freshstart]

If anyone else is dealing with a parent driving dangerously, I'd ask the doctor to address it to spare your relationship but also many communities have a program that actually evaluates drivers to see if they are safe or if something simple can be done to make them safer. Ours is a service one of outpatient rehab centers offers. It gives the person some dignity and if, in the end, they are not allowed to drive, at least they know you tried to "help" them

[sweetana3]

We all are trying to spare the elderly drivers feelings but what about the innocent people (including kids) walking or driving and hurt or killed by an elderly driver? What about them?

[pinkytoe]

There's something about having parents who didn't have your back that twists up your psyche.
This is true for so many of us even if our parents weren't hoarders. I still recall the terror of being in a car at night with my alcoholic father....praying that the car wouldn't leave the road and checking to see that his eyes were still open while he drove. Those precarious feelings never really go away. At some point, I realized that my parents were imperfect humans just like the rest of us and not the grownups I had hope in as a child.

[Kestra]

This is true for so many of us even if our parents weren't hoarders. I still recall the terror of being in a car at night with my alcoholic father....praying that the car wouldn't leave the road and checking to see that his eyes were still open while he drove. Those precarious feelings never really go away. At some point, I realized that my parents were imperfect humans just like the rest of us and not the grownups I had hope in as a child.

Yep, me, too. That's pretty much the turning point, when you realize that.

[freshstart]

We all are trying to spare the elderly drivers feelings but what about the innocent people (including kids) walking or driving and hurt or killed by an elderly driver? What about them?

to me, that's why you tell the doctor, they have an obligation to address this and they have the power to tell the DMV, "this person can no longer safely drive, they need to be re-evaluated". Doctors hate to have this conversation, as well, but too bad. I worked with this one doc who every time this guy in his 90s came in, he had to address the driving and didn't, he had countless fender benders, he was confused, massive brain tumor, and he was mean as a bed bug, his family got nowhere. Well, he lived near me and one day on the way to work, I saw someone had driven their car straight into the grocery store front, all kinds of damage, luckily no one got hurt but the person who did it was passed out. Later that afternoon, he ended up on our unit just to be watched. I was so mad, this did not have to happen, but, hey, he lost his license and his doc didn't have to be the bad guy! I told the doc to watch the news tonight, Mr X thought the Grand Union was now a drive thru.

here's a link that helps with what to say and what to do when that doesn't work:

https://www.caring.com/questions/taking-drivers-license-away-senior-driver

[Ultralight]

Last Sunday, when my "fam" (my sis, BIL, mom, and dad) did our Thanksgiving my mom seemed to have forgotten she was talking to me.

She was sitting in the living room with all of us. My dad, sis, and BIL were talking about something else. My mom seemed to be just relaxing. Then she started talking in a hushed tone, almost to herself.

"I like this house. This little ranch house. You can get to everything so easily." (Keep in mind it is 1100 sq. ft. and is kind of cluttered.)

She trailed off but then looked over and me and said: "Sometimes we think of moving, selling the house and moving to a place like this. But then we'd have to 'deal' with our house. It is just so much, so much to deal with."

I felt sad for her. I don't know why I said it, perhaps it was an ill-timed and ill-worded way of saying: "There are other ways to live."

But what I said was: "I can fit everything I own into or onto my car. Moving for me takes very little time or effort."

Then, at that moment, she realized she was talking to me. She snapped out of it and got a spiteful look in her eye.

"I know. I know! I already know that!"


But what neither of us said or acknowledged was that her house -- the one that is "so much, so much to deal with" will be left to my sis and I to "deal" with. My mom knows how bad it is but would rather push it onto my sis and I to deal with in the wake of her death.

It is just not right.

[freshstart]

I can relate to knowing it will all be left to me (my brother will have nothing to do with any of the crap, even the big pile that keeps getting bigger that he leaves here despite living in another state). Since my parents already filled the biggest dumping bin (I know this is the wrong word, bad brain) available twice and we still have all this shit, it actually makes me feel like I am choking to think about taking care of it. My mom's too sick now to do much more than purge her room with help and my dad has no intention of getting rid of any of it.

since your mom knows she is doing this to you and your sister, would it be too cruel to tell her upfront, as far as you are concerned, you are keeping none of it, it gets hauled to the dump, you do not want their lifestyle and you are not pleased with the thought of being left with it? Maybe she would cull the absolute crap so she just leaves stuff your sister may want or you guys can sell? What is your dad like?

I am sorry this is part of your family life. It really affects dynamics.

[Ultralight]

I can relate to knowing it will all be left to me (my brother will have nothing to do with any of the crap, even the big pile that keeps getting bigger that he leaves here despite living in another state). Since my parents already filled the biggest dumping bin (I know this is the wrong word, bad brain) available twice and we still have all this shit, it actually makes me feel like I am choking to think about taking care of it. My mom's too sick now to do much more than purge her room with help and my dad has no intention of getting rid of any of it.

since your mom knows she is doing this to you and your sister, would it be too cruel to tell her upfront, as far as you are concerned, you are keeping none of it, it gets hauled to the dump, you do not want their lifestyle and you are not pleased with the thought of being left with it? Maybe she would cull the absolute crap so she just leaves stuff your sister may want or you guys can sell? What is your dad like?

I am sorry this is part of your family life. It really affects dynamics.


It sounds like you're in a worse pickle than me.

[freshstart]

that's funny because I thought your situation must drive you nuts since you live such diametrically opposite lifestyles, at least I can sort of understand how they got there as evidenced by my cheap purse addiction, lol

[Ultralight]

that's funny because I thought your situation must drive you nuts since you live such diametrically opposite lifestyles, at least I can sort of understand how they got there as evidenced by my cheap purse addiction, lol

You have a good sense of humor about it. :)

[Teacher Terry]

UL: if you don't want to deal with it you can hire a company & they will offer you a price to clear out the house. It will be totally empty when they are done-even the refrigerator. You usually end up with some $ because they sell everything that is worth anything. I have a friend whose wife we had to put in a home -she has Alzheimer's & he is dying & there house was loaded with stuff. At first we were taking it to Goodwill, etc but then the family got sick of working on it with us so hired a company like this. I have cleaned out numerous family members homes when they died & it is a lot of work. Even if people not hoarders they tend to fill garages, basements, etc. That is one reason I have been downsizing my stuff so I don't leave this for my kids.

[Ultralight]

UL: if you don't want to deal with it you can hire a company & they will offer you a price to clear out the house. It will be totally empty when they are done-even the refrigerator. You usually end up with some $ because they sell everything that is worth anything. I have a friend whose wife we had to put in a home -she has Alzheimer's & he is dying & there house was loaded with stuff. At first we were taking it to Goodwill, etc but then the family got sick of working on it with us so hired a company like this. I have cleaned out numerous family members homes when they died & it is a lot of work. Even if people not hoarders they tend to fill garages, basements, etc. That is one reason I have been downsizing my stuff so I don't leave this for my kids.

I really like this idea. Thank you.

You're doing the right thing by downsizing so your kids don't have to deal with so much later...

[Williamsmith]

I am relatively young but I know that in and of itself doesn't guarentee anything so my gift to my children was that I cleared out 25 years of clutter and downsized from a place that required lots of active maintenance. I didn't want my three kids to have to deal with the kind of stuff being discussed here. Why this became important to me, I can't say. How can you make hoarders understand that hey are passing on a great burden to loved ones.....I also can't say.

[Ultralight]

I am relatively young but I know that in and of itself doesn't guarentee anything so my gift to my children was that I cleared out 25 years of clutter and downsized from a place that required lots of active maintenance. I didn't want my three kids to have to deal with the kind of stuff being discussed here.

That is very thoughtful and caring of you.

[Chicken lady]

You know, there are other sides to leaving your kids stuff. My mom said that one of the greatest gifts my grandmother left her was a house full of stuff. It was a huge house and very full of things ranging from very valuable to the traditional "pieces of string too short to save" (that's from a joke).

It took over a year to clear the house. Spending hours every day with her brother, focusing on what was in front of her to do, having the grandkids come to visit and look through things...

My grandmother was my mother's best friend, they literally talked to each other every day of heir mutual lives except when my mom was on her honeymoon. Mom spent the last five years of Gram's life as one of her primary care givers. And if gram had died leaving an estate that could be wrapped up in a few weeks, my mother would ave been lost. Instead, she had time to get used to the house being empty and her mother being gone and slowly add new things to her days while still needing to get up and go over to the house and "take care of things".

[Teacher Terry]

I had a good friend that lived in a big old house with attic, etc. They tended to just put stuff up there-not hoarders. So her cancer comes back & the first thing she does is spend an entire summer cleaning that out so if her hubby wants to move after she dies it will be easy.

[Ultralight]

You know, there are other sides to leaving your kids stuff. My mom said that one of the greatest gifts my grandmother left her was a house full of stuff. It was a huge house and very full of things ranging from very valuable to the traditional "pieces of string too short to save" (that's from a joke).

It took over a year to clear the house. Spending hours every day with her brother, focusing on what was in front of her to do, having the grandkids come to visit and look through things...

My grandmother was my mother's best friend, they literally talked to each other every day of heir mutual lives except when my mom was on her honeymoon. Mom spent the last five years of Gram's life as one of her primary care givers. And if gram had died leaving an estate that could be wrapped up in a few weeks, my mother would ave been lost. Instead, she had time to get used to the house being empty and her mother being gone and slowly add new things to her days while still needing to get up and go over to the house and "take care of things".

I think it all really depends on what a person values and if they take into consideration what their kids value.

My sis and I made it clear to my mom (and to my dad, though his problem is much less severe and would probably not exist at all if it weren't for my mom).

Neither of us want to deal with the problems associated with cleaning out her house after she passes. It is more than just stuff -- knick-knacks, trinkets, etc.

It is also urine-soaked carpets, black mold covered walls, animal-feces and vomit encrusted furniture, and so forth.

All of this ends up being a massive amount of dangerous work (exposure to toxins and disease) in a structurally unsound (because of neglect) house.

[Ultralight]

I had a good friend that lived in a big old house with attic, etc. They tended to just put stuff up there-not hoarders. So her cancer comes back & the first thing she does is spend an entire summer cleaning that out so if her hubby wants to move after she dies it will be easy.

This is going to be massively controversial. But I am going to say it anyway.

Imagine if they had never cluttered the attic. She could have spent that entire summer with her husband instead of cleaning.

Now, some might say she could have done that anyway -- just ignore the attic clutter. True enough.

But then in the wake of her death her husband has to deal with that clutter in the attic. Sad.

So why accumulate the clutter in the first place? Value your time! Use it wisely.

[iris lilies]

You know, there are other sides to leaving your kids stuff. My mom said that one of the greatest gifts my grandmother left her was a house full of stuff. It was a huge house and very full of things ranging from very valuable to the traditional "pieces of string too short to save" (that's from a joke).

It took over a year to clear the house. Spending hours every day with her brother, focusing on what was in front of her to do, having the grandkids come to visit and look through things...

My grandmother was my mother's best friend, they literally talked to each other every day of heir mutual lives except when my mom was on her honeymoon. Mom spent the last five years of Gram's life as one of her primary care givers. And if gram had died leaving an estate that could be wrapped up in a few weeks, my mother would ave been lost. Instead, she had time to get used to the house being empty and her mother being gone and slowly add new things to her days while still needing to get up and go over to the house and "take care of things".

That is a beautiful illustration of one size doesn't fit all. It is a nice example of how your mother and her mother were in sync.

But that wouldn't work for most people. I cannot imagine liking spending a year of my life fussing with someone else's junk that became my junk. I can't even imagine it if I were retired, let alone carrying a full time job. If retired, I could see spending a week or two cleaning out parental belongings and that would be ok, but no more time than that.

But out in the end, my mother was thoughtful of us kids and gave us choices or disposed of a lot of stuff in various moves and while she was capable. When we had to fully liquidate her house after she was incapable, for me it was one trip there to pick through any remaining things I wanted and taking only a few things.

My brother was left there to get rid of the stuff, but he had my blessing to hire someone to come and take it all. He would not, nor would his wife. They are the ones who felt compelled to go through each item, touching each one, fussing with it, putting it a garage sale. That is entirely on him, his choice. He kept all profits from this stuff with my blessing because it was his work that realized the profit, not mine. And believe me when
I say my mom had very little stuff by the end. And oh, I forgot this--we rented her house to a relative who later bought it, so any large pieces of furniture he wanted, he got for free. None of them were worth real money.

[Geila]

This is going to be massively controversial. But I am going to say it anyway.

Imagine if they had never cluttered the attic. She could have spent that entire summer with her husband instead of cleaning.

Now, some might say she could have done that anyway -- just ignore the attic clutter. True enough.

But then in the wake of her death her husband has to deal with that clutter in the attic. Sad.

So why accumulate the clutter in the first place? Value your time! Use it wisely.

I think you're missing something critical here: we are all doing the best we can. If we could do better, we would. This is not to say that you can't be hurt by how someone's actions affect you, but to realize that if they could do things differently, they would.

I think compassion is needed for someone who misses out on some of the good things life has to offer because they have a condition (whatever the condition or issue might be), that controls their lives to such a degree that it pushes their loved ones away.

[Chicken lady]

Iris Lillies, when my grandmother was alive my mom spent three full days a week at her house, plus two half days (one morning and one afternoon/evening, both including lunch). On the other three days she either called or stopped by.

After her death, mom and my uncle spent two full weeks, and after that they just met for lunch every day and worked mornings/afternoons as the felt like it. Mom was home for dinner with dad every night - which was the first big change.

At the end they were just going by for an hour or so and not every day, and then they were meeting not at the house for lunch to hand off things that had gone home with one or the other. My grandmother died in march of 2013 and my mom just took my uncle "his last envelope of pictures from the albums." in September.

I don't think my uncle would have spent so much time with her if he hadn't felt responsible to "do his share" of the work.

[Ultralight]

I think you're missing something critical here: we are all doing the best we can. If we could do better, we would. This is not to say that you can't be hurt by how someone's actions affect you, but to realize that if they could do things differently, they would.

I actually don't believe this is true.

[Chicken lady]

Lol, I actually agree with you there.

Some days I am doing the best I can. Other days I am lazy and self centered.

[iris lilies]

Lol, I actually agree with you there.

Some days I am doing the best I can. Other days I am lazy and self centered.

you and me, sister!;)

[Ultralight]

Lol, I actually agree with you there.

Some days I am doing the best I can. Other days I am lazy and self centered.

I know I am not doing the best I can. haha

The idea that everyone is doing the best they can is an attractive one. But I think that if that were really the case we'd be in some serious trouble.

Oh... wait...we are... :(

[Williamsmith]

I don't believe we are in serious trouble. If you mean likely that things won't get better. I believe the trouble we are in is serious but we will engineer a better way for most of our population and move on towards a more productive and meaningful life.

[Teacher Terry]

UL: what you describe is disgusting so yes I would hire it done since it seems toxic. My friend's hubby was still working so she spent the days working with the help of some of her friends while he was at his job. It didn't impact their life together. Some of the stuff she used like the Fisher Price toys her kids outgrew her grandchildren played with. Some not. However, they had young kids , were working f.t. each, taking care of aging parents so the easiest was to throw it in the attic. Without ever experiencing all that she did you can not even imagine how busy those child rearing years are.

[Tammy]

Although SO and I have never hoarded, one does accumulate a lot of stuff over 25 years of raising 3 kids on a tight budget. In the early 2000s we had a 4 bedroom house with garage and basement with what looked like a normal amount of stuff. But it was thrifted, gifted, hand me downs, and such. With a few nice pieces. So as each kid moved out to create their own life they got to take whatever they wanted. By the time they were done we down to about 30% of the stuff. We then downsized a lot more and everything we own (except for a vehicle and a condo that we rent out) fits easily in our 586 sq ft apartment.

I liked giving kids the stuff they wanted and needed when they needed it, and making our eventual estate settlement more about dividing investments and less about sorting through physical stuff.

[Ultralight]

Without ever experiencing all that she did you can not even imagine how busy those child rearing years are.

I hope my lucky stride continues and I never have to rear a child.

[Teacher Terry]

Her family created the lovely family life they desired-I agree that you should not have kids & nothing at all wrong with that.

[Chicken lady]

Oh great.

So ds and his so went to look at a dog.
and
dh and dd went to see James bond.
and
i am sitting in my messy kitchen trying to waste time online. But then I come here. And I see this thread. And I remember this is not the best I can do. But I'm TI-erred (whine). Thanks Ultralightangler. Thanks so much.

[Teacher Terry]

CL: when I have been been faced with needing to get rid of tons of stuff I find it easier to tackle it a day at a time versus an hour at a time. It just likes I have more energy & get more done. Also the more you do it the easier it gets to get rid of stuff quicker without agonizing over every little thing. The other thing is I only keep a few things to remember people by-not 50 things each, etc. Hugs>8)

[Ultralight]

Oh great.

So ds and his so went to look at a dog.
and
dh and dd went to see James bond.
and
i am sitting in my messy kitchen trying to waste time online. But then I come here. And I see this thread. And I remember this is not the best I can do. But I'm TI-erred (whine). Thanks Ultralightangler. Thanks so much.

Oh man, if you're doing better then I have to do better too. And I just had pasta for dinner. I am too sleepy to do better. ;)

[bae]

Oh great.

So ds and his so went to look at a dog.


"Went to look at a dog"... Ruh-roh.

I am not ever allowed to "go look at a dog" unless we have a spare spot in the pack, because everyone *knows* what will happen as soon as I see puppy eyes and at least 2-3 legs remaining on the dog.

[Ultralight]

The last time I went to "look at a dog" I took my checkbook and came back with Harlan. :)

[Chicken lady]

Oh, I'm almost sure she will get the dog. But not tonight. She is looking for a dog. But she has to wait until Friday even if she chooses this dog. Ds went along to help her remember that. The dog is 3 years old, spayed, house trained, and has 4 legs. Part beagle possibly part boxer.

I cleared most of the drift of accumulated crap off the counter. And I threw way some plastic lids and a dirty plastic bag - yay me! Also put the laundry away.

Teacher terry, sometimes it is a big block of time, and sometimes it's "I can do this (pile, surface, box, shelf, drawer...)

I cleaned out a whole drawer earlier by handing ds his mail (he'll have a real address elsewhere in June. Meanwhile he moves so much most of his mail comes here.)

[JaneV2.0]

I am infinitely distractible. So if I get anything done (questionable), I have to do it in bursts. I'm OK with that.

[Teacher Terry]

BAE: I have the very same doggie restrictions from my hubby. We have had our share of old, disabled dogs because I know no one else will adopt them. A friend of mine wanted to go the local HS looking for a girl , non-shedding dog. We came home with a boy, shedder. He snuggled in her neck & that was all she wrote.