In a housing pickle. Thoughts? Ideas?

[Ultralight]

(Full disclosure: I posted part of this question on another thread as a reply, but then decided it would be a worthwhile thread on its own.)

I feel like I am in a pickle, as many people do, regarding housing. Here is a description of this pickle. Tell me what you think:

-Most houses are too big, cost too much, require tons of maintenance, and are pricey to heat/cool.
-Tiny houses are illegal because of zoning, require tow trucks to move, and can cause social/privacy issues
-Living in a van is for creepers (unfortunately...) in most parts of the nation, also illegal in most places; I am not mechanical either.
-Living in a teepee is a sure fire way to get Lyme Disease and/or hypothermia and/or arrested
-Living in an apartment is giving your money to a landlord with nothing to show for it at the end (but do I want "something to show for it" at the end?)
-Living in an RV is expensive and has many complications that tiny houses and vans have
-Living in a house with room mates is often rather horrible because "hell is other people" and this is still like renting an apartment, though often cheaper
-Living in a teardrop trailer also shares many tiny house, RV, vandwelling issues; and you need a car (at least) to tow it.

So what is a workin' man to do for affordable housing that does not constitute a second full-time job to maintain?

[catherine]

-Most houses are too big, cost too much, require tons of maintenance, and are pricey to heat/cool. There are a lot of really cute small houses in small towns/villages if you look around
-Tiny houses are illegal because of zoning, require tow trucks to move, and can cause social/privacy issues But you can find a friend who would love a few bucks for a glorified tool shed that comes with a buddy
-Living in a van is for creepers (unfortunately...) in most parts of the nation, also illegal in most places; I am not mechanical either. Wouldn't be my first choice, either, frankly.
-Living in a teepee is a sure fire way to get Lyme Disease and/or hypothermia and/or arrested Well, how about a yurt?
-Living in an apartment is giving your money to a landlord with nothing to show for it at the end (but do I want "something to show for it" at the end?) Can be a very good choice for someone who does not want the responsibility of house, and if you did calculations on apartment life vs. the amount you spend on taxes, maintenance, mortgage interest and all the other intangible and tangible costs of owning a home, it really just comes down to a matter of preference
-Living in an RV is expensive and has many complications that tiny houses and vans have I don't know how complicated they are. Jacob from Early Retirement Extreme lives in one, I think
-Living in a house with room mates is often rather horrible because "hell is other people" and this is still like renting an apartment, though often cheaper Yeah, I'm past the "roomie" stage, too. I have a roomie: DH. But an alternative is to be a house-sitter or a caretaker on someone else's property
-Living in a teardrop trailer also shares many tiny house, RV, vandwelling issues; and you need a car (at least) to tow it.I'm sure there are the adventurous who will say this is a great thing, but I agree--too small for me. A friend once sent me a picture of a house on a BIKE.

[Ultralight]

-Living in an apartment is giving your money to a landlord with nothing to show for it at the end (but do I want "something to show for it" at the end?) Can be a very good choice for someone who does not want the responsibility of house, and if you did calculations on apartment life vs. the amount you spend on taxes, maintenance, mortgage interest and all the other intangible and tangible costs of owning a home, it really just comes down to a matter of preference

This right here is a very good point... If there is one thing I dislike more than anything else, it might be responsibilities.

[Valley]

I'm just curious UltraliteAngler...are you writing a book or a thesis with all of the answers to your questions? If so, it would be interesting reading. Your posts remind me of the surveys I sent out to get data for my Master's Thesis.

[Ultralight]

I'm just curious UltraliteAngler...are you writing a book or a thesis with all of the answers to your questions? If so, it would be interesting reading. Your posts remind me of the surveys I sent out to get data for my Master's Thesis.

No, I am not a grad student anymore. Sometimes I think of going back for the PhD, but I ain't got the bread for that and no way would I take out any more student loans! $160,000 is enough to owe.

I am essentially just trying to find a way to live, in a place to live, that I can live with. I know that is convoluted. haha

[SteveinMN]

I would say that you simply need to prioritize the most important values to you in housing. You mentioned disliking responsibility more than anything. That rules out several of the alternatives you listed. Local laws and personal preferences will rule out a few more (tiny house, van). I think you'll find you're left with maybe a couple of choices, which makes the ultimate decision one of whichever seems like less of an evil to you.

My sister and her significant other have rented the same apartment for almost 15 years. It's a nice enough apartment, though they've been there long enough for apartment management to think of the place as a cash cow and it's not quite as nice as it's always been. They pay in rent about half-again what we pay for a mortgage, though things even out when one adds in utilities, long-term maintenance, the costs for things like lawnmowing and repairs, and it does not consider tax advantages or any equity we'll have in the house. Her (stated) reason for never buying a house: she likes being able to call up just one person if something isn't working right. Personally, I think that becomes an expensive phone call. But it's their preference and it works for them. Me, I couldn't get away from apartment life fast enough.

Think it through in terms of what you value most and the answer will become clear to you.

[Float On]

Having been a home owner for 25 years I'm actually looking forward to renting for a couple years (if I can talk the DH into selling our property). Just being able to call someone else and let the maintenance be their responsibility will be a load off my shoulders. I wouldn't mind an apartment or condo for a couple years....DH insists on not sharing walls. So the conversation stalls.

You might look and see what is available in long term hotels. Around here there are some nice ones that have been remodeled this year so that there is a full (small) kitchen, sitting area, bedroom, bathroom. They are charging $550-650 a month. That includes utilities, hotel pool and gym. On-site coin laundry. There are also some pretty scary ones that are full of meth addicts and bed bugs which charge the same amount (but their pool is green/unusable/the washers are always broke).

https://springfield.craigslist.org/apa/5146316420.html Here is the craigslist link to the new one I'm talking about.

[Ultralight]

My current living situation has some perks:
-No lease
-Rent in cash
-No deposits
-Live-in petsitters
-No pet fees
-Utilities split 3 ways
-I don't have to fix, repair, or maintain anything
-20 minute drive to work on a surface street
-My own bathroom
-Garage to store canoe and fishing gear
-Get along with housemates (Sis and BIL)
-Rent is only $400

But the downsides are:
-I am 36 and rent a room from my younger sister. hahaha
-I am only permitted to clean fish in the kitchen once a month! (This means I don't fish as much as I would like)
-I'd like to be able to walk or bike to work
-I am 45 minutes drive from the lady I am dating
-The neighborhood is uninteresting in every way
-The neighborhood is not especially walking or biking friendly

So I am trying to find a situation I would like to move into that is at least as good a deal as what I have when factoring everything in.

[Gregg]

Cute bungalow. New roof, gutters, wiring, furnace. All appliances inc. washer & dryer. Big corner lot (aka room for a huge garden). Taxes are $276/year. Price is $22,500. Bet they would take $20K or negotiate some kind of terms that would make it easy to get into the house. If not this one there are thousands and thousands of other similar properties for sale in just about every small town in the midwest. Just pick where you want to live and take a peek.

http://www.schultis.com/listing.do?reid=12892&sty=&agid=&mlsid=&mlsv=&loc=Any&cty=&ty=RESIDENTIAL&hty=Single+Family&beds=&baths=&specials=&ws=&mnprc=&mxprc=&ps=12&pg=1&ord=1&sort=PriceN

[Ultralight]

Cute bungalow. New roof, gutters, wiring, furnace. All appliances inc. washer & dryer. Big corner lot (aka room for a huge garden). Taxes are $276/year. Price is $22,500. Bet they would take $20K or negotiate some kind of terms that would make it easy to get into the house. If not this one there are thousands and thousands of other similar properties for sale in just about every small town in the midwest. Just pick where you want to live and take a peek.

http://www.schultis.com/listing.do?reid=12892&sty=&agid=&mlsid=&mlsv=&loc=Any&cty=&ty=RESIDENTIAL&hty=Single+Family&beds=&baths=&specials=&ws=&mnprc=&mxprc=&ps=12&pg=1&ord=1&sort=PriceN

I thought you was jerking my chain until I followed the link. Wow! Can't believe it is so cheap.

[freshstart]

our long term hotels have become pretty run down, lots of crime. The homeless get vouchers to stay there sometimes. When I visited patients who lived in these, it was not a place I would recommend, even just in terms of peace of mind- being surrounded by so many others so down and out, up is no longer an option, that would weigh on my psyche. Our other long term hotels are geared to executives, I would assume quite pricey.

[ToomuchStuff]

(Full disclosure: I posted part of this question on another thread as a reply, but then decided it would be a worthwhile thread on its own.)

I feel like I am in a pickle, as many people do, regarding housing. Here is a description of this pickle. Tell me what you think:

-Most houses are too big, cost too much, require tons of maintenance, and are pricey to heat/cool. LOOK IN OLDER AREAS OF TOWN
-Tiny houses are illegal because of zoning, require tow trucks to move, and can cause social/privacy issues Again, not if they are already built in an older area of town
-Living in a van is for creepers (unfortunately...) in most parts of the nation, also illegal in most places; I am not mechanical either.
-Living in a teepee is a sure fire way to get Lyme Disease and/or hypothermia and/or arrested Not if the teepee is on your own property. Schoolteacher friend, once lived in one on her farm.
-Living in an apartment is giving your money to a landlord with nothing to show for it at the end (but do I want "something to show for it" at the end?) What is a condo, but something you own the inside, and pay for maintenance on, not an option for everybody though.
-Living in an RV is expensive and has many complications that tiny houses and vans have
-Living in a house with room mates is often rather horrible because "hell is other people" and this is still like renting an apartment, though often cheaper
-Living in a teardrop trailer also shares many tiny house, RV, vandwelling issues; and you need a car (at least) to tow it.

So what is a workin' man to do for affordable housing that does not constitute a second full-time job to maintain?

What about vacant land and building what you want, or finding property with an old garage, and converting it to a small house? What about a used trailer, and having it delivered? *most people don't move mobile homes), or building a prebuilt home on site?
What about something like I have looked at?
http://www.monolithic.org/cabins

Don't box your thinking in.

[freshstart]

the house that only cost $226 in taxes, I would look at the schools if children are in your future

[Gregg]

I thought you was jerking my chain until I followed the link. Wow! Can't believe it is so cheap.

In the past few years I've bought four houses like that, in small towns close to me, that were being auctioned. In each case the opening bid was $1,000 and I was the only bidder. Two needed some work, mostly cleaning, and two were move in ready. I sold one and rent the others for $225, $250 and $350 per month (all to people who work for us so they get a deal). Here's one my realtor buddy thinks will go for between $5K and $8K at the auction in August.

http://www.schultis.com/listings.do?sty=&agid=&mlsid=&mlsv=&loc=Any&cty=&ty=RESIDENTIAL&hty=Single+Family&beds=&baths=&specials=&ws=&mnprc=&mxprc=&pg=1&sort=PriceN&ord=1&ps=12


Added: This is across the state line in Nebraska, not Kansas, so the taxes are four times as high. All the houses I bought were in KS.

[JaneV2.0]

Coming from an area where ordinary houses go for half a million or more, I'm impressed!

[ToomuchStuff]

Those are what is common in the area I live. The prices, have gone from around $16K to around $100K and everywhere in between. (property tax assessors hate it, one street can be high, another cheap)
One on my street went for back taxes, early this year and the one next to me (share a bit of property) is going up for sale, next year. The first one went for around $6k. I'd like to buy the one next to me and tear it down, but I fear the teardown costs as they have a wide range ($5k-15K).

My school district finally changed a few years back and it has dramatically improved. However houses sell slower because people don't want two bedroom, one bath houses.
The last houses in my neighborhood that sold, went for $16k, 23ishK, around $6k and $62K. Two estate houses, the tax sale, and one that had the former tenants from next door (made that one condemned, fixed up and occupancy permit, then sold).

[awakenedsoul]

Makes me want to buy a couple of small rental homes in KS or NE! Incredible prices. (especially compared to Southern California.) That's always been my backup plan. If things went really wrong, I figured I could sell my cottage and buy another small, older house in another part of the US where homes are a bargain.

UltralightAngler, It sounds like you've got a really great deal where you are to me. Owning a home is a big responsibility. It's not for everybody. I've been VERY happy with mine, but I really wanted it. I searched this area when prices were low. I started out as a renter, and I looked at every house that went on the market in this neighborhood. I kept a log. I built relationships with plumbers, handymen, and painters. I ended up buying the cottage I was renting without a real estate agent. I fixed it up so nicely, people wanted to help me. (When I moved in it was an eyesore.)

You don't sound to me like you'd be very happy owning a home. My hit on you is that you like having less responsibility and more freedom. Rents here are much higher than what your sister is charging you. Have you ever lived with anyone besides family? (It sounds like you've had roommates.) Are you used to paying the going rate for rent? (I don't mean this as an attack, I am just curious.) I rented for years, and it was a big chunk of my take home pay.

Also, that student loan is huge. (I don't mean that as a judgement.) I think that has a lot to do with how you feel. I would work on getting debt free before thinking about a home purchase. I would also try to increase your income. You obviously spent a lot on education...what kind of degree? Does your current income match what you expected to make after graduating?

My hit on some of the people who end up unhappy with tiny houses is that they're not very good with money. They go ahead and spend a huge amount on something that turns out to be illegal and a money pit. They don't sound like smart shoppers. They also don't strike me as being very realistic. I love the look of tiny homes, but when I compare them to my small home on a 7,400 square foot lot, they seem way too expensive. Also, I have found that the land value really matters, especially in an economic downturn.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I guess I see homeownership as potentially locking one into:

1) a bad commute forever and ever which one can't escape no matter what (say by changing apartments). And no buying where one works is no solution at all, no one has any job security and being at a job for 10 years is considered exceptional so one may start out with a house near work but that probably wont' be the case eventually
2) very high mortgage payments due in periods of unemployment. I guess you can make this work with two incomes, it seems a heavy burden for one person with modern levels of job insecurity. Unemployment doesn't even pay the rent, it's not going to pay the mortgage. I've lived from early on in my career, expecting, even to some degree planning for, periods of unemployment, it's just the way it is.
3) it's of course also massively expensive compared to renting.

[Ultralight]

the house that only cost $226 in taxes, I would look at the schools if children are in your future

What do you mean look at schools?

[Ultralight]

You don't sound to me like you'd be very happy owning a home. My hit on you is that you like having less responsibility and more freedom. Rents here are much higher than what your sister is charging you. Have you ever lived with anyone besides family? (It sounds like you've had roommates.) Are you used to paying the going rate for rent? (I don't mean this as an attack, I am just curious.) I rented for years, and it was a big chunk of my take home pay.

Also, that student loan is huge. (I don't mean that as a judgement.) I think that has a lot to do with how you feel. I would work on getting debt free before thinking about a home purchase. I would also try to increase your income. You obviously spent a lot on education...what kind of degree? Does your current income match what you expected to make after graduating?

My hit on some of the people who end up unhappy with tiny houses is that they're not very good with money. They go ahead and spend a huge amount on something that turns out to be illegal and a money pit. They don't sound like smart shoppers. They also don't strike me as being very realistic. I love the look of tiny homes, but when I compare them to my small home on a $7,400 square foot lot, they seem way too expensive. Also, I have found that the land value really matters, especially in an economic downturn.

I know I have a good deal where I currently live. If I moved out on my own I'd pay about $800 in rent, but could bike or walk to work.
I have lived with tons of roommates in my life. I have lived in 27 different houses, dorms, apartments, etc.

My student loan debt is huge. I have what amounts to three degrees in the liberal arts (Interdisciplinary, American Culture, and Library Science); One bachelors, two masters. I knew nothing about money or financial literacy until about two years ago. Since then I have learn a lot -- I paid off my car in 18 months (was a 5 year loan), paid off my ex-wife, paid some doctor/dentist/orthodontist bills, etc. I have ZERO credit card debt. If I work 10 years for the government (any level) and/or a 501c3 and make 120 loan payments during that time, then I will have the remainder of my loans forgiven. But that is the only way I get get truly debt free. If I work in the private sector then I have to wait 25 years to get my loan remainder forgiven, while making payments then whole time. :(

[Ultralight]

I guess I see homeownership as potentially locking one into:

1) a bad commute forever and ever which one can't escape no matter what (say by changing apartments). And no buying where one works is no solution at all, no one has any job security and being at a job for 10 years is considered exceptional so one may start out with a house near work but that probably wont' be the case eventually
2) very high mortgage payments due in periods of unemployment. I guess you can make this work with two incomes, it seems a heavy burden for one person with modern levels of job insecurity. Unemployment doesn't even pay the rent, it's not going to pay the mortgage. I've lived from early on in my career, expecting, even to some degree planning for, periods of unemployment, it's just the way it is.
3) it's of course also massively expensive compared to renting.

I'd like to see you expand more on these points.

[TxZen]

What about housesitting?

[Ultralight]

I would be open to it. I do have a dog though, who sheds. :/

[Miss Cellane]

I housesat all through grad school, bringing my two cats with me. They learned to get along with the cats and dogs that were already resident in the houses.

I second the suggestion of buying some land and building a small house. There are a lot of small house plans out there, many for vacation homes that could easily be used for full-time living, if properly winterized. My cousin builds houses for a living and is constantly finding new plans for me--someday he is going to build my retirement home, which will basically be a library with a bed and a table.

The other suggestion of an older home is also worth considering. I live in an older city and there are a lot of small houses, usually living room, eat-in kitchen, and 2 bedrooms, around. Maybe no quite as small as you want, but well-built and only needing a little updating (most of them really need the knob and tube wiring replaced).

Or if you don't want much responsibility, look around at condos. Yes, some have high fees. But some don't. And they take care of a lot of the maintenance for you. There are studio condos around, if you look for them.

[catherine]

What do you mean look at schools?

I think what freshstart is saying is that in many cases, places that have such low taxes aren't investing in the public school system and/or the community is not willing/able to support better schools with their taxes. That's why you generally pay high property taxes in towns with excellent schools.

[Ultralight]

I think what freshstart is saying is that in many cases, places that have such low taxes aren't investing in the public school system and/or the community is not willing/able to support better schools with their taxes. That's why you generally pay high property taxes in towns with excellent schools.

So if I live in a place with bad schools I will pay less in taxes?

[freshstart]

What do you mean look at schools?

I would wonder how the quality of schools are if taxes are that low. How does a school district manage on such a small tax base? Unless I do not understand the post about the very low taxes, of course.

[Kestra]

I guess I see homeownership as potentially locking one into:

1) a bad commute forever and ever which one can't escape no matter what (say by changing apartments). And no buying where one works is no solution at all, no one has any job security and being at a job for 10 years is considered exceptional so one may start out with a house near work but that probably wont' be the case eventually
2) very high mortgage payments due in periods of unemployment. I guess you can make this work with two incomes, it seems a heavy burden for one person with modern levels of job insecurity. Unemployment doesn't even pay the rent, it's not going to pay the mortgage. I've lived from early on in my career, expecting, even to some degree planning for, periods of unemployment, it's just the way it is.
3) it's of course also massively expensive compared to renting.

This is so important right now, with your job being less than secure. I think renting (or some kind of house-sharing, house-sitting, or renting a tiny house on someone else's property) are the only reasonable choices at the moment. If you get into a job you think you will stay at, consider buying. But frankly, owning sucks a lot. I've owned 3 places (2 on my own, 1 with ex) and there is a lot of hassle and extra costs all the time, especially if you aren't handy at all. With that low of rent you'd need to get a house like Gregg mentions, to have any chance of getting ahead.

That did work once for me. My first house was $26,500 and 100 years old. I just got lucky though that I didn't have to fix anything, and sold it in 4 years for $40,000. But that's rare. Next house was a nightmare from day 1. The third house I didn't like the area and it still had it's share of problems. It actually almost exploded/burnt down due to a plumber screwing up -- 3 fire trucks, a hole in my exterior wall in November, dealing with insurance, the condo board, and contractors for 7 months afterwards. Plus some water issues, appliance replacement. I'm glad to be done with that place. And it was the nicest place I've lived as an adult. Plus there I had my ex to help deal with a lot of those issues; on my own it's even worse.

Back to your original question:

I agree with thinking about the absolute most important things to have or not have, make sure you have those, then just live with the rest.

For me right now:
Don't want: responsibility, home ownership as my own residence (would consider investment properties), house maintenance, isolation
Want: mobility/easy to leave, easy to get outside, close to downtown, cheap, good walking/busing options, community

Yes, roommates are annoying some of the time but right now I find the benefits outweigh the negatives. What I really like about where I'm currently living is that I get all the benefits of a house: washer/dryer, yard, deck, no stairs/elevator to get in, but for cheaper than an apartment, and none of the responsibilities of home ownership.

[ToomuchStuff]

So if I live in a place with bad schools I will pay less in taxes?

MAYBE. KC schools, had high taxes, that were brought about by several lawsuits. They spent a LOT of money to "improve" education, and busing kids around. When Independence got the local high school back, went in and cleaned it up, and removed the metal detectors, that first year, there was dramatic improvement.

High taxes and low taxes are not the only thing. If people don't want to go to that school district, it will affect both your cost and resale value. It may also affect later decisions if you get married/have new kids (either by or ready made family).

[Ultralight]

MAYBE. KC schools, had high taxes, that were brought about by several lawsuits. They spent a LOT of money to "improve" education, and busing kids around. When Independence got the local high school back, went in and cleaned it up, and removed the metal detectors, that first year, there was dramatic improvement.

High taxes and low taxes are not the only thing. If people don't want to go to that school district, it will affect both your cost and resale value. It may also affect later decisions if you get married/have new kids (either by or ready made family).

"Ready made family?" What do you mean?

I don't intend to have kids, hopefully I don't have any accidents!

[ToomuchStuff]

A ready made family is when two that get married, and one of them already has kids.

[Kestra]

"Ready made family?" What do you mean?

I don't intend to have kids, hopefully I don't have any accidents!

She means marrying someone who already has kids. At least that doesn't happen by accident. ;)

[Ultralight]

She means marrying someone who already has kids. At least that doesn't happen by accident. ;)

Around these parts we call that a "pre-fam."

[ToomuchStuff]

He means marrying someone who already has kids. At least that doesn't happen by accident. ;)

Corrected, for you!;)

[freshstart]

High taxes and low taxes are not the only thing. If people don't want to go to that school district, it will affect both your cost and resale value. It may also affect later decisions if you get married/have new kids (either by or ready made family).

this is what I'm trying to say. The suburb next to mine happens to fall into another city, their city went "broke", my friend has a 60 yr old very tiny home and pays almost as much as i do but does not benefit from the same things, good schools, town upkeep- roads, snow plowing, etc, crappy library, etc. Buying a home just a few miles from me, results in a totally different picture without lower costs. IMO, most realtors are not upfront about this stuff, try to ask people you know there or meet potential neighbors, see what they have to say, read the local paper of where you want to go for a while.

honestly, the situation you have with your sister sounds sweet, you can't get much lower than that. If you have a good relationship, of course. Now that I'm older, I would love to live with my brother, he drives me nuts but I love the fool and a few years of co-habitation would actually be great. 20 yrs ago, there was not enough money in the world to live with him. Can you renegotiate the cleaning fish deal? If you're paying your fair share, why should you be treated like a kid about the fish stuff? As long as you clean up, why do they care? This sounds like the cheapest option that might allow you to sock money away for when you do know exactly what you want.

Are you already in a gov't job that will help with your student loans? Because that sounds pretty critical. If you already are, wouldn't you want to stay relatively nearby to get that loan deal? And if you're not already in the right job situation for this, wouldn't that decision need to come before you choose where you live and maybe end up somewhere that does not have a gov't job suitable for you? So I think I missed a post because I can't tell what the deal is on the job front.

kudos on paying off car, ex-wife, etc

[Ultralight]

this is what I'm trying to say. The suburb next to mine happens to fall into another city, their city went "broke", my friend has a 60 yr old very tiny home and pays almost as much as i do but does not benefit from the same things, good schools, town upkeep- roads, snow plowing, etc, crappy library, etc. Buying a home just a few miles from me, results in a totally different picture without lower costs. IMO, most realtors are not upfront about this stuff, try to ask people you know there or meet potential neighbors, see what they have to say, read the local paper of where you want to go for a while.

honestly, the situation you have with your sister sounds sweet, you can't get much lower than that. If you have a good relationship, of course. Now that I'm older, I would love to live with my brother, he drives me nuts but I love the fool and a few years of co-habitation would actually be great. 20 yrs ago, there was not enough money in the world to live with him. Can you renegotiate the cleaning fish deal? If you're paying your fair share, why should you be treated like a kid about the fish stuff? As long as you clean up, why do they care? This sounds like the cheapest option that might allow you to sock money away for when you do know exactly what you want.

Are you already in a gov't job that will help with your student loans? Because that sounds pretty critical. If you already are, wouldn't you want to stay relatively nearby to get that loan deal? And if you're not already in the right job situation for this, wouldn't that decision need to come before you choose where you live and maybe end up somewhere that does not have a gov't job suitable for you? So I think I missed a post because I can't tell what the deal is on the job front.

kudos on paying off car, ex-wife, etc

Well... I lived with my sis and BIL from April 2013 until May 2015. I moved in with a couple housemates who turned out to be horribly irresponsible, rude, lazy, and total slobs. So when I told my sis I was moving out of that place at the end of June she said I could move back in, but with only three stipulations. I had to vacuum the living room once a month, I had to pay $400 instead of $350 for rent. And I could only filet fish once per month. I am allowed to live here until May of 2016.

My sis and I get along well enough. My BIL get along well enough too. We sometimes go fishing together and such. But my sis is a "clean freak." I have talked about this in other threads. Both my parents are compulsive hoarders so we grew up in filth. My sister's problem with cleaning fish stems from the filth we grew up in. So I don't make a big deal out of it. I clean the place like a pro. OSHA and the health department would give me an award!

Yes, I do have a government job. It sucks though, and I might be subject to lay-offs between Sep. and Jan. I have nine more years to go. Nine long years. Nine hard ones! hahaha

[freshstart]

Well... I lived with my sis and BIL from April 2013 until May 2015. I moved in with a couple housemates who turned out to be horribly irresponsible, rude, lazy, and total slobs. So when I told my sis I was moving out of that place at the end of June she said I could move back in, but with only three stipulations. I had to vacuum the living room once a month, I had to pay $400 instead of $350 for rent. And I could only filet fish once per month. I am allowed to live here until May of 2016.

My sis and I get along well enough. My BIL get along well enough too. We sometimes go fishing together and such. But my sis is a "clean freak." I have talked about this in other threads. Both my parents are compulsive hoarders so we grew up in filth. My sister's problem with cleaning fish stems from the filth we grew up in. So I don't make a big deal out of it. I clean the place like a pro. OSHA and the health department would give me an award!

Yes, I do have a government job. It sucks though, and I might be subject to lay-offs between Sep. and Jan. I have nine more years to go. Nine long years. Nine hard ones! hahaha

I'm sorry, my memory stinks, totally forgot about your sister's clean thing. Maybe you'll find a gov't job you like, hey, maybe OSHA's hiring! I don't know how these things work, do you really save a lot on your loans by doing the gov't jobs? I guess if you do, it's a toss up, better, more enjoyable job vs loan help. Just curious- perfect job, what would it be? would it use one of your degrees or be something totally different

[Ultralight]

I'm sorry, my memory stinks, totally forgot about your sister's clean thing. Maybe you'll find a gov't job you like, hey, maybe OSHA's hiring! I don't know how these things work, do you really save a lot on your loans by doing the gov't jobs? I guess if you do, it's a toss up, better, more enjoyable job vs loan help. Just curious- perfect job, what would it be? would it use one of your degrees or be something totally different

OSHA! Yeah... I like that idea. I will check with them when I start applying for jobs next month. I like the way you think! :)

[awakenedsoul]

You've done really well so far paying off your debts. To me, your sister's requests sound reasonable, but it's your situation. (not my business.) You sound very passionate. It would be great if you had a job that you love, that uses your talents. With all of your education, hopefully it would pay really well, too.

I'm a big believer in the concept of right work, right relationship. I think I would take a side job delivering pizzas or something for now to pay off the debt faster. Sometimes when you do that, new opportunities fall into your lap. It sounds like you don't want to have to pay back the loan, so you are in a job that is sucking your soul. I think you could find something you love and be able to get out of debt.

[Ultralight]

You've done really well so far paying off your debts. To me, your sister's requests sound reasonable, but it's your situation. (not my business.) You sound very passionate. It would be great if you had a job that you love, that uses your talents. With all of your education, hopefully it would pay really well, too.

I'm a big believer in the concept of right work, right relationship. I think I would take a side job delivering pizzas or something for now to pay off the debt faster. Sometimes when you do that, new opportunities fall into your lap. It sounds like you don't want to have to pay back the loan, so you are in a job that is sucking your soul. I think you could find something you love and be able to get out of debt.

Yeah, my sis and her BIL's requests are reasonable, especially considering that they take care of my dog when I am not around, which can be often because I am involved with several groups in my community. I know my complaints are mostly FWP. haha

Well, delivering pizzas would probably not allow me to pay off the loan much faster because of compound interest. I can't keep up with it.

[Tammy]

I like your situation with your sister, there's very few negatives to it. Clean your fish outdoors. Remember that time apart makes time together better - so the 45 minute distance from SO is ok. 400 a month is remarkably low. I'd stay right there and keep on with your long term financial plan. Getting that huge amount of student loan forgiven in 9 years is a huge windfall.

Advice from a 53 year old who has learned how fast a decade can go by. ;)

[freshstart]

this what I think and a decade flies by

[Ultralight]

That worries me... ten years of my life just gone in the blink of my loan drone, zombified eyes? haha

[freshstart]

I would do an intense search to find a gov't job that suits you more (aren't there tests you can take and if you do well new opportunities open up?) but sometimes jobs suck for a long time, make out of work time fulfilling.

[Ultralight]

I would do an intense search to find a gov't job that suits you more (aren't there tests you can take and if you do well new opportunities open up?) but sometimes jobs suck for a long time, make out of work time fulfilling.

Yup... that is the plan! :)

[freshstart]

I keep thinking of things, sorry! Maybe your SO would be willing to move closer to you so you don't have to uproot your entire life

[Ultralight]

I keep thinking of things, sorry! Maybe your SO would be willing to move closer to you so you don't have to uproot your entire life

If you keep thinking of things, then keep'em coming! I am open to all sorts of ideas.

My SO owns here own home (or rather, has a mortgage). I don't know that she'd want to move, unless it was to move in together. I am not comfortable with that.

[pinkytoe]

Does your region have a booming economy? If not, maybe time to consider new locale for higher, more stable income until you get debt paid down?

[Ultralight]

Does your region have a booming economy? If not, maybe time to consider new locale for higher, more stable income until you get debt paid down?

Columbus, OH has a pretty dang good economy. There is hardly even a dusting of rust here. The new housing bubble is bubbling up big-time! People are buying homes that are outside their price range, too big for them, much too much to maintain, and generally just an unwise investment. That, and the gubmint jobs galore, really have the 'comeny booming!

[rodeosweetheart]

How about a job with National Park service in a fish-related range capacity?

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/411409000

The ranger jobs I have seen often come with housing.

[Ultralight]

Thanks! I am open to these options. I will start looking into them tomorrow when I begin looking/applying for jobs to get ahead of a possible lay-off.

[Tammy]

Remember that 10 years will pass either way ... And you will either be out of debt at the end of it or still have 15 years of student loan payments in front of you. ;)

[ToomuchStuff]

I get a chuckle out of the government jobs idea. Fed and local do differ (and that may affect your loan), but I always joked that if I lost a job and had to go collect unemployment, I would ask for an application at the unemployment office.:D

[shadowmoss]

When I first moved out here to Phoenix a couple of years ago I got a furnished room with kitchen and desk at the Extended Stay hotel near work. I think it was around $700/mo? I soon got an apartment that I didn't like as much once I moved in, even though it had more room, and what with all the extra charges (paying extra for trash? in an apartment? and others) I ended up paying much more and with the hotel room utilities, including wifi, were included. They also allow pets, as one guy had a fairly large dog. Not all extended stay hotels are wastelands. They even had coffee and rolls every morning. When you need to move out if you haven't found something, you might look around near where you are working at some of that type of hotel. There are several brand names. If you say you are staying for a month at a time you get a much better rate than if it is just weekly, so allow for that as well. It is the first level of not having responsibility. :) They even come in and clean your room and change the sheets every week. And have on-site clothes washers and dryers.

I now live in a +55 mobile home park where I own my mobile home and pay lot rent. Not a lot cheaper than the hotel room was. My goal is to get rid of enough of my stuff to fit into either an RV or back to the Extended Stay hotel. It wasn't a bad gig.

[freshstart]

that actually sounds like a sweet deal, especially if you have a dog

I decided I am ready for this: http://www.eddyseniorliving.com/our-communities/enriched-assisted-living/the-terrace-at-glen-eddy/

I have seen patients here and it is unbelievable, the DR is gorgeous, way nicer than the places I eat at. Patients told me the food is gourmet. The apts are so nice, freshly built, way nicer than any apt I've ever had. Plus, look at all the other stuff you get! I'm 45, that's old. And when I was in there, the Clash was on the Muzak! I have found my people!

the $5000 a month price tag, meh, who cares?

[JaneV2.0]

When I first moved out here to Phoenix a couple of years ago I got a furnished room with kitchen and desk at the Extended Stay hotel near work. I think it was around $700/mo? I soon got an apartment that I didn't like as much once I moved in, even though it had more room, and what with all the extra charges (paying extra for trash? in an apartment? and others) I ended up paying much more and with the hotel room utilities, including wifi, were included. They also allow pets, as one guy had a fairly large dog. Not all extended stay hotels are wastelands. They even had coffee and rolls every morning. When you need to move out if you haven't found something, you might look around near where you are working at some of that type of hotel. There are several brand names. If you say you are staying for a month at a time you get a much better rate than if it is just weekly, so allow for that as well. It is the first level of not having responsibility. :) They even come in and clean your room and change the sheets every week. And have on-site clothes washers and dryers.

I now live in a +55 mobile home park where I own my mobile home and pay lot rent. Not a lot cheaper than the hotel room was. My goal is to get rid of enough of my stuff to fit into either an RV or back to the Extended Stay hotel. It wasn't a bad gig.

Hmmm. I've always said that my idea of simple living involved a hotel. Food for thought...

[jp1]

Personally one of the things I love about traveling for work is that I don't have any of my usual home chores. No cooking dinner, loading the dishwasher, feeding the cats, cleaning the litterbox, putting laundry away, etc. I'm not sure I'd want to live like that 7 days/week but it's nice to do for a few days here and there on a regular basis.

[Kestra]

Ok, Jake - Twin Cities report. Have you been? It is so awesome here and I've only seen a little bit. Too bad I only have a day and a few hours here. I wasn't that serious when I mentioned it before, but now I am. The trees, the lakes - there are kayakers and canoers everywhere right in the city. And all the SLers. I am so getting a van within a few years so I can live throughout Minnesota, especially here.
If you are considering other states you should give it serious consideration.

[Ultralight]

Remember that 10 years will pass either way ... And you will either be out of debt at the end of it or still have 15 years of student loan payments in front of you. ;)

Oh... I know. I factor that unfortunate reality into my situation.

[Ultralight]

When I first moved out here to Phoenix a couple of years ago I got a furnished room with kitchen and desk at the Extended Stay hotel near work. I think it was around $700/mo? I soon got an apartment that I didn't like as much once I moved in, even though it had more room, and what with all the extra charges (paying extra for trash? in an apartment? and others) I ended up paying much more and with the hotel room utilities, including wifi, were included. They also allow pets, as one guy had a fairly large dog. Not all extended stay hotels are wastelands. They even had coffee and rolls every morning. When you need to move out if you haven't found something, you might look around near where you are working at some of that type of hotel. There are several brand names. If you say you are staying for a month at a time you get a much better rate than if it is just weekly, so allow for that as well. It is the first level of not having responsibility. :) They even come in and clean your room and change the sheets every week. And have on-site clothes washers and dryers.

I now live in a +55 mobile home park where I own my mobile home and pay lot rent. Not a lot cheaper than the hotel room was. My goal is to get rid of enough of my stuff to fit into either an RV or back to the Extended Stay hotel. It wasn't a bad gig.

This is kind of a cool idea. Though the thing that scares me is BED BUGS! haha

[Ultralight]

Ok, Jake - Twin Cities report. Have you been? It is so awesome here and I've only seen a little bit. Too bad I only have a day and a few hours here. I wasn't that serious when I mentioned it before, but now I am. The trees, the lakes - there are kayakers and canoers everywhere right in the city. And all the SLers. I am so getting a van within a few years so I can live throughout Minnesota, especially here.
If you are considering other states you should give it serious consideration.

Kestra:

That city is on my list, or rather, those cities are on my list. The problem is that it is cold! But I suppose I could learn to ice fish and teach my dog to pull my sled to work from Sept. 1st to July 1st. ;)

[Kestra]

Well, luckily you're already in Ohio, so you're used to some cold. I'm not sure how much of a difference there is. What helps in Winnipeg, and I've heard in Minneapolis is if you live downtown there are indoor walkways so you don't have to actually walk outside that much in the winter if you live and work in those areas. But there are of course benefits to not living in the core, and in the winter is it better to bus or drive? I hate transferring buses and also driving in the winter so I try to just live where it's one bus to most places.
Winter's also great for practicing your stoicism techniques, which you might enjoy.

[Ultralight]

Well, luckily you're already in Ohio, so you're used to some cold. I'm not sure how much of a difference there is. What helps in Winnipeg, and I've heard in Minneapolis is if you live downtown there are indoor walkways so you don't have to actually walk outside that much in the winter if you live and work in those areas. But there are of course benefits to not living in the core, and in the winter is it better to bus or drive? I hate transferring buses and also driving in the winter so I try to just live where it's one bus to most places.
Winter's also great for practicing your stoicism techniques, which you might enjoy.

Oh Kestra... You know I dig my stoicism! haha

Central Ohio is nice from roughly April through October. Jan. and Feb. are bitter cold though.

[Kestra]

As I'm just waiting around for roommate to get up so we can do something I took the time to look up average January high temperatures.
Winnipeg 10F
Minneapolis 22
Columbus 35

Columbus would seem super mild to me in the winter.

[Ultralight]

As I'm just waiting around for roommate to get up so we can do something I took the time to look up average January high temperatures.
Winnipeg 10F
Minneapolis 22
Columbus 35

Columbus would seem super mild to me in the winter.

35 degrees is fairly cold by central Ohio standards. But considering it is roughly 35 in Winnipeg right now, in the middle of summer, I am sure you can see why I would have apprehensions about moving north.

[Kestra]

35 degrees is fairly cold by central Ohio standards. But considering it is roughly 35 in Winnipeg right now, in the middle of summer, I am sure you can see why I would have apprehensions about moving north.

? It hasn't been 35F for several months now. It's about 65 right now. Has been around 80-85 plus humidity for most of July. Though, yes of course, overall it's cooler than most places. Lots of people move out to BC for the better climate.

[Ultralight]

? It hasn't been 35F for several months now. It's about 65 right now. Has been around 80-85 plus humidity for most of July. Though, yes of course, overall it's cooler than most places. Lots of people move out to BC for the better climate.

65 in Winnipeg? I refuse to believe that.

[Kestra]

65 in Winnipeg? I refuse to believe that.
:)
Winnipeg is a tropical paradise compared to Edmonton in the summer, though it seems to have gotten a lot warmer there since I lived there as a kid.

[Ultralight]

:)
Winnipeg is a tropical paradise compared to Edmonton in the summer, though it seems to have gotten a lot warmer there since I lived there as a kid.

You slackers need to burn more fossil fuels.

[Kestra]

You slackers need to burn more fossil fuels.

Oh, our government is on it. They don't care what us tree hugging, liberals or First Nations people have to say. Alberta and Ontario need their rich, SUV driving, cattle-farming, car-building, industrialists to keep voting in these horrible conservative governments.

[Ultralight]

Oh, our government is on it. They don't care what us tree hugging, liberals or First Nations people have to say. Alberta and Ontario need their rich, SUV driving, cattle-farming, car-building, industrialists to keep voting in these horrible conservative governments.

Amen to that! There's gonna be palm trees on the Coast of Lake Erie within two decades! We can do it!

[freshstart]

Oh, our government is on it. They don't care what us tree hugging, liberals or First Nations people have to say. Alberta and Ontario need their rich, SUV driving, cattle-farming, car-building, industrialists to keep voting in these horrible conservative governments.

AMEN. 42 of our National Parks are at risk for oil drilling, 12 already have it. Obama stepped up to fight more arctic drilling but turned around and gave oil companies the right to lease even more park land to drill. I love him but that was bad. Overall though, if his environmental proposals are adopted by Congress, including today's major climate control act, maybe we would finally be getting somewhere

[Ultralight]

AMEN. 42 of our National Parks are at risk for oil drilling, 12 already have it. Obama stepped up to fight more arctic drilling but turned around and gave oil companies the right to lease even more park land to drill. I love him but that was bad. Overall though, if his environmental proposals are adopted by Congress, including today's major climate control act, maybe we would finally be getting somewhere

Obama's presidency is the reason I quit voting. I won't get fooled again!

[catherine]

Obama's presidency is the reason I quit voting. I won't get fooled again!

We're never going to have perfect. Perfect is the enemy of the good. If you are disappointed, perhaps your expectations were too high? Obama had some failures, but he had some solid successes. We all know there's no such thing as a Knight in Shining Armor in politics. But I'd rather have the the person with MY vision wearing the tarnished armor.

[Ultralight]

We're never going to have perfect. Perfect is the enemy of the good. If you are disappointed, perhaps your expectations were too high? Obama had some failures, but he had some solid successes. We all know there's no such thing as a Knight in Shining Armor in politics. But I'd rather have the the person with MY vision wearing the tarnished armor.

I dunno... I think bad is the enemy of good.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I dunno... I think bad is the enemy of good.

+1 I think continuing to believe in these horrible leaders is the enemy of the good, if we can't even call these bad leaders like Obama bad, which they are, can't even call a spade a spade, that's the enemy of the good. It's bad enough we're ruled by monstrous evil without pretending we like it.

[catherine]

I dunno... I think bad is the enemy of good.

So just guess better next time. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[Ultralight]

So just guess better next time. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Doing nothing is not an option.

[catherine]

Doing nothing is not an option.

Exactly.

[Ultralight]

I just see voting as futile, counterproductive, and a waste of time. So I would rather do something constructive.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I just see voting as futile, counterproductive, and a waste of time. So I would rather do something constructive.

good men doing ineffective things, could also lead to the triumph of evil? That's way too broad a statement about voting though. Are direct referendums a waste of time? I definitely don't think so. Is the school board a waste of time? Not necessarily. But bought and paid politicians at high levels very well might be.

Honestly what hurts me most is not that our rulers are evil, evil rulers, that's not exactly historically unique is it. And they rule by police state measures anyway. Not the they are the most oppressive measures there have ever been, they aren't. But that people often don't even see how evil are rulers are is what hurts me most. THAT is why I'm hopeless about the social and political situation.

[catherine]

I just see voting as futile, counterproductive, and a waste of time. So I would rather do something constructive.

It takes no time for me to walk through my back yard to our polling station and vote. I almost always vote Democrat and DH almost always votes Republican, so we could save ourselves the time it takes to cancel out each others' votes and just stay home and watch Jeopardy. But, I still choose to exercise my right to vote because I can.

[Ultralight]

I am hopeless too. haha

Go Team Hopeless!

[freshstart]

We're never going to have perfect. Perfect is the enemy of the good. If you are disappointed, perhaps your expectations were too high? Obama had some failures, but he had some solid successes. We all know there's no such thing as a Knight in Shining Armor in politics. But I'd rather have the the person with MY vision wearing the tarnished armor.

that is a saying used in medicine, if you really think about it, it applies to a lot IRL. Agreed on the rest of your post, as well.

I consider voting to be a privilege and it's your responsibility to inform yourself and use your vote wisely. If you don't vote, don't bitch and moan if someone horrible becomes President or member of Congress. Those stats on liberal leaning people who no longer vote, they just gave up, are scary. If enough come out and vote, change can happen. If we did the ethical thing of making voting easier, more impoverished and sick people would have the opportunity, if ballots accommodated citizens with ESL, more would vote, etc. I mean this for all voters, but I'm partial to the left, lol.

Women didn't even have the right to vote 100 yrs ago, 50 years after black people got the vote. If suffragettes fought for 50 YEARS during a time when it was not easy for women to speak out, the very least I can do is vote. People die keeping this country free, if they are willing to do that, then I guess I can find 15 mins to vote, even if I am just choosing between the lesser of two evils, and I acknowledge this is often the case. And if you want bad asses, like the notorious RBG, to be Supreme Court Justice, well, that's initiated by the President and confirmed by your senators. I may sound totally naive, that's fine.

Angler I am surprised that you don't vote, you seem to care very much about many issues. How can they be advanced if you don't vote? It's none of my business, but it does surprise me.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If you don't vote for a THIRD PARTY candidate, don't bitch and moan if someone horrible becomes President or member of Congress!

People may have fought for the vote but the oligarchs actually won that fight as they made voting (close to) irrelevant. It's a case of winning the battle and losing the war. Although I don't think it's accurate to describe most suffragettes as only be interested in the vote for it's own sake, since I think most of them had much larger agendas and wanted the vote for very specific reasons (like labor issues etc.).


Angler I am surprised that you don't vote, you seem to care very much about many issues. How can they be advanced if you don't vote?

just about any avenue would seem more promising. But the thing is if people insist on voting for a lesser evil or something, so be it, I don't actually see it as the worst thing in the world (though if they vote major party they will likely get someone horrible - but maybe slightly lesser horrible - although I think the evidence points to one party being better is very questionable. But since the game is rigged anyway I don't even blame the people for what they do there, vote lesser evil, vote 3rd party, or don't vote. 3rd party may be the best option but the game is rigged regardless). It's just when they start to believe the hype about the lesser evil not being evil and so on that I dislike. If voting does that to people, I don't like it at all!

[SteveinMN]

Twin Cities report. Have you been? It is so awesome here and I've only seen a little bit. Too bad I only have a day and a few hours here. I wasn't that serious when I mentioned it before, but now I am. The trees, the lakes - there are kayakers and canoers everywhere right in the city. And all the SLers. I am so getting a van within a few years so I can live throughout Minnesota, especially here.
SSSSSHHHHHHH!!!!!1!!! You're gonna ruin it for those of us who've already discovered the place! :D

It is a beautiful state -- well, most of it. Fortunately Minnesotans enjoy the outdoors enough -- year-round -- to believe tax money spent on preserving and maintaining lakes and parks and wildlife areas is not "wasteful government spending".

I don't know about living in a van here, though. It does get cold in the winter. Even a mobile home is a little iffy when the air temperature outside is -15/-20* F. And, so far this year, we've had only a couple of days with a high above 90* F; usually there are 10-12 in an average summer.


Well, luckily you're already in Ohio, so you're used to some cold. I'm not sure how much of a difference there is. What helps in Winnipeg, and I've heard in Minneapolis is if you live downtown there are indoor walkways so you don't have to actually walk outside that much in the winter if you live and work in those areas. But there are of course benefits to not living in the core, and in the winter is it better to bus or drive? I hate transferring buses and also driving in the winter so I try to just live where it's one bus to most places.
Winter's also great for practicing your stoicism techniques, which you might enjoy.
Minneapolis, in particular, has an extensive skyway system. A woman I dated for a while lived at the north edge of downtown and worked at an office downtown. Even in the middle of winter, she could go to work without a coat (!). St. Paul's and Duluth's skyway systems are nowhere near as extensive. We just know to bundle up. It's a great market for Thinsulate and Polartec and GoreTex.

As for riding the bus or driving, the main problem there is that the buses share the roads with the cars. If it's difficult for the cars to get around and they get stuck, the buses are stuck, too. There are some freeways here on which buses may drive on the shoulder -- assuming a stall or accident isn't blocking the shoulder. The light rail (primarily around Minneapolis) is a better bet because it's dedicated roadway. But it may not get you as close to your destination as the bus or a car (parked in a garage connected by a skyway). "One bus to most places" can work; some routes are so frequent and some transfer areas are indoors, that transferring may not be a big issue. Mass transit, though, is one area in which the Twin Cities could improve greatly, but the folks in the suburbs don't believe they'll ever see a benefit for it, so improvement is talked about far more than it's executed.

[freshstart]

If you don't vote for a THIRD PARTY candidate, don't bitch and moan if someone horrible becomes President or member of Congress!


this is what I want more than anything and I keep not voting that way because I'm afraid to take the vote away from the Dems. In elections where NY seems to be leaning blue and the projections are good, then I vote 3rd party. Like Nader. But I don't see how to get one in office without a revolt or something, do you?

[Ultralight]

Disclaimer: Sarcasm on the way!


that is a saying used in medicine, if you really think about it, it applies to a lot IRL. Agreed on the rest of your post, as well.

I consider voting to be a privilege and it's your responsibility to inform yourself and use your vote wisely. If you don't vote, don't bitch and moan if someone horrible becomes President or member of Congress. Those stats on liberal leaning people who no longer vote, they just gave up, are scary. If enough come out and vote, change can happen. If we did the ethical thing of making voting easier, more impoverished and sick people would have the opportunity, if ballots accommodated citizens with ESL, more would vote, etc. I mean this for all voters, but I'm partial to the left, lol.

Women didn't even have the right to vote 100 yrs ago, 50 years after black people got the vote. If suffragettes fought for 50 YEARS during a time when it was not easy for women to speak out, the very least I can do is vote. People die keeping this country free, if they are willing to do that, then I guess I can find 15 mins to vote, even if I am just choosing between the lesser of two evils, and I acknowledge this is often the case. And if you want bad asses, like the notorious RBG, to be Supreme Court Justice, well, that's initiated by the President and confirmed by your senators. I may sound totally naive, that's fine.

Angler I am surprised that you don't vote, you seem to care very much about many issues. How can they be advanced if you don't vote? It's none of my business, but it does surprise me.

Ah yes... the "If you don't vote you can't complain" refrain. It is as old as the farce of democracy itself.

Let me first quote my main man George Carlin: "The next time they give you all that civic bullshit about voting, keep in mind that Hitler was elected in a full, free democratic election."

Then let me zing you with this: "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch." I am a lamb. You are a lamb. Why would you want this system?

Okay, let me explain in my own words why I do not vote.

1. I don't want to live in a hierarchy, why would I vote to keep one in place?
2. I like to order off the menu. Apparently, you don't. The power elite give you a menu. It has two items on it. Then you say: "Better than not eating in a restaurant!" I'd rather eat at my neighborhood chili cook-off! Ya dig?
3. What about the people all over the world that feel the effects of US policies? They did not vote. Can they complain?
4. There are so, so many powerful positions in "our" government that people get appointed to. But you cannot complain about anything they do because you did not vote for them! Gotcha!
4 and a half. "But the people I voted for appointed those un-elected power elites." Democracy in action! Enjoy!
4 and three quarters. The people you voted against also get to appoint un-elected powerful positions because they often win. How you like that?
5. I voted from 1998 through 2012. And every year the water, air, and soil has gotten more polluted. Wars kept happening. The healthcare "system" got worse. Corporations have gotten more power. Overall -- things got worse! My vote did nothing.
6. Here is the real zinger. Voting functions nicely for those in power to, not only give you a false/very limited choice, but it also pushes the blame for everything back on you, the salt-of-the-earth, well-meaning voter. The president did not turn out the way you expected? Oh! You should have voted for someone else. You have no one to blame but yourself. Oh, you don't blame yourself? Maybe you can excuse yourself by saying: "I voted for the lesser of two evils." Congrats on that! Well done. Or...You can say: "Well, I guess we'll just have to elect someone better next time." Look back through history. That does not happen much. It is a trend downward, not upward.

How many women voted for whichever candidate you did not like last presidential election? How many voted for the one you did like? Perfect system. Women vote in their best interest every time. So do men, oh wait... not really on either account.

So you vote to honor women and black people? I thought you voted because you were civic-minded and wanted to select the next great leader of whatever.

Oh... you vote because of all the people that died for voting? How does that make sense? Maybe if you stop voting then people will stop dying for voting.

Here is how I think I can advance my causes: DIY. Learn to take care of yourself, your family, friends, and community without the government or its bosses (the corporations). Being a frugal minimalist means that corporations have fewer tethers on me. And even if nobody else lives this way, I still gain some freedom. If you were the only one to vote for the best candidate you get nothing. Which is a better way to see results?

We need to create communities of resilience, not vote for evils of any extent.

[ApatheticNoMore]

There may not be very good options to advance one's causes. But maybe better to admit that than pretend voting provides them.

I try to support ethical alternatives as they emerge, more ethical ways of doing business etc.. Do I donate to political campaigns? No (though really I'm not going to fault someone too much if it's Sanders :~)). Do I donate to people trying to organize unions? Yes.

Yes I've been to a few protests etc., though I'm not sure it does that much good either. Anyway I don't have problems with voting for direct democracy referendums (provided the votes aren't hacked). It's just believing that much hope lies with bought and paid for politicians. Continually trying a failed method to solve problems is one way to guarantee they won't get solved. And believing it solves anything is the nail in the coffin.

Even ex-presidents don't believe the U.S. has a functioning democracy:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/videos/jimmy-carter-u-s-is-an-oligarchy-with-unlimited-political-bribery-20150731

[freshstart]

ok, I hear your points, agree with some, except that nothing has changed, Obamacare may not be perfect but it is a gigantic leap forward. And I do not agree that I got "nothing from the best candidate", I got that and much, much more. My investments are rocking. He supports things I believe in, I am pretty content, I'm sorry you aren't. I can't say that about every candidate I voted for, because sometimes I was really voting party. You can say whatever you want about why I vote, that's fine, I will still always vote. I'm not stupid, I know the Koch brothers, super PACS, the 1%, corporations will never be stopped with my one lousy vote. The system sucks, it's a giant game played out by the elite. But I'm still voting, because sometimes you get a really good one, like Obama, IMHO and we creep slowly toward a country that I'd like to be in. If Congress had been dem majority, great things, IMO, could have been accomplished.

I am not a frugal minimalist because how are you going to really create this community of resilience and no government? Friends and family taking care of each other, sounds good, utopian. Until one of you gets a mass in your brain (kinda like me). Was I supposed to "learn to take care of myself" and thus be able to saw that sucker outta there? I don't think so. Who amongst your frugal minimalist society happens to be a brain surgeon? Likely no one, I die, other people get sick, there is no healthcare system, more die or come to their senses and realize maybe some government is a good idea. You get old, do you really trust your community is going to provide your care? I wouldn't bank on that. You gain freedom, ok, but freedom from anything may not be so great. No police if you are robbed, beaten, killed. Your plan sounds good for you and others like you but do you honestly think your plan is sustainable and all walks of life will agree to it? The crazy Christians breaking bread with LGBTQs? Where does everyone work or is the plan to not work except for what it takes to sustain the community? People cannot even agree on a flag, but they will be willing to work side by side with groups they hate creating the community's sustainability? Sorry, I do not see any signs of great unity in this country and I do not think that what you suggest will ever happen. You could start a community with like-minded folks, but I doubt that it can be sustained and grow.

"And even if nobody else lives this way, I still gain some freedom", if that works for you, that's great. Get rid of the gov't, healthcare, social programs, whatever you would like to see gone. But if you are really gonna follow your beliefs, when you get the mass in your brain (may this never, ever happen to you), seriously, what's your plan if you are avoiding the system you don't believe in? Are you really willing to die than succumb to a gov't you do not believe in, do not want in any way, so you don't use its benefits? That's pretty hardcore and a waste of a good life.

And aren't you working for the government mainly for loan forgiveness? So I guess that makes us both hypocrites. I can live with that. I will hope you find that life you want and even a community of like-minded folks. Live a healthy lifestyle so you can take care of each other. But dude get a mass, break your beliefs and seek help, even if that help comes from corporations and the government. Use them like they try to use you.

[freshstart]

Angler, if you write back, I won't be ignoring you, that effin' mass gets pretty confused as the day goes on and I am often not able to make even one salient point, as most posts prove. But a good day, I only had to be told once that "for the love of Pete, stop thinking it's January!" and a few times, "yep, Monday, allllllll day it will be Monday." "Go away, it does not matter what day it is" sticks post it on my forehead. He made good points, kinda like you, "Not January, not, go stand outside. It is STILL Monday. Take a pill to go to sleep." It was 5:30 pm so even I knew I was being eff'd with, lol. Good night!

[Ultralight]

ok, I hear your points, agree with some, except that nothing has changed, Obamacare may not be perfect but it is a gigantic leap forward. And I do not agree that I got "nothing from the best candidate", I got that and much, much more. My investments are rocking. He supports things I believe in, I am pretty content, I'm sorry you aren't. I can't say that about every candidate I voted for, because sometimes I was really voting party. You can say whatever you want about why I vote, that's fine, I will still always vote. I'm not stupid, I know the Koch brothers, super PACS, the 1%, corporations will never be stopped with my one lousy vote. The system sucks, it's a giant game played out by the elite. But I'm still voting, because sometimes you get a really good one, like Obama, IMHO and we creep slowly toward a country that I'd like to be in. If Congress had been dem majority, great things, IMO, could have been accomplished.

I am not a frugal minimalist because how are you going to really create this community of resilience and no government? Friends and family taking care of each other, sounds good, utopian. Until one of you gets a mass in your brain (kinda like me). Was I supposed to "learn to take care of myself" and thus be able to saw that sucker outta there? I don't think so. Who amongst your frugal minimalist society happens to be a brain surgeon? Likely no one, I die, other people get sick, there is no healthcare system, more die or come to their senses and realize maybe some government is a good idea. You get old, do you really trust your community is going to provide your care? I wouldn't bank on that. You gain freedom, ok, but freedom from anything may not be so great. No police if you are robbed, beaten, killed. Your plan sounds good for you and others like you but do you honestly think your plan is sustainable and all walks of life will agree to it? The crazy Christians breaking bread with LGBTQs? Where does everyone work or is the plan to not work except for what it takes to sustain the community? People cannot even agree on a flag, but they will be willing to work side by side with groups they hate creating the community's sustainability? Sorry, I do not see any signs of great unity in this country and I do not think that what you suggest will ever happen. You could start a community with like-minded folks, but I doubt that it can be sustained and grow.

"And even if nobody else lives this way, I still gain some freedom", if that works for you, that's great. Get rid of the gov't, healthcare, social programs, whatever you would like to see gone. But if you are really gonna follow your beliefs, when you get the mass in your brain (may this never, ever happen to you), seriously, what's your plan if you are avoiding the system you don't believe in? Are you really willing to die than succumb to a gov't you do not believe in, do not want in any way, so you don't use its benefits? That's pretty hardcore and a waste of a good life.

And aren't you working for the government mainly for loan forgiveness? So I guess that makes us both hypocrites. I can live with that. I will hope you find that life you want and even a community of like-minded folks. Live a healthy lifestyle so you can take care of each other. But dude get a mass, break your beliefs and seek help, even if that help comes from corporations and the government. Use them like they try to use you.

You bring up some very good points! Some I agree with, some not. I stand corrected on a couple issues, especially the point on modern medicine.

Though I stand by my point that our government is FUBARed and voting does little to nothing. I also still believe that we need to take care of more of our own needs -- like feeding ourselves, fixing things, transporting ourselves, directing our community's culture, etc.

[freshstart]

You bring up some very good points! Some I agree with, some not. I stand corrected on a couple issues, especially the point on modern medicine.

Though I stand by my point that our government is FUBARed and voting does little to nothing. I also still believe that we need to take care of more of our own needs -- like feeding ourselves, fixing things, transporting ourselves, directing our community's culture, etc.

maybe dental, too? or you can whittle wooden dentures like George Washington had, lol. I agree more than not, we both want a better community, that's what counts.

curious- by feeding ourselves, does that mean you are against SNAP for the poor or did you mean we should grow more, have gardens, etc. And I am pro National Endowment for the Arts, that money is needed to sustain or improve cultural offerings. I don't know if many Americans care much about the arts after seeing that statistic that 80% of adults NEVER read a single book after college. Totally judging, but if you never, even by accident, read another book, I doubt your supporting the opera by buying season tickets. You can flame me, that was mean and I didn't really mean it. Frankly, that statistic scares me more than anything political, I don't know if I can exist in a world where 80% of the people never read. How do you find the other 20% to talk about books? I have to snopes that statistic, that cannot be true

[Ultralight]

maybe dental, too? or you can whittle wooden dentures like George Washington had, lol. I agree more than not, we both want a better community, that's what counts.

curious- by feeding ourselves, does that mean you are against SNAP for the poor or did you mean we should grow more, have gardens, etc. And I am pro National Endowment for the Arts, that money is needed to sustain or improve cultural offerings. I don't know if many Americans care much about the arts after seeing that statistic that 80% of adults NEVER read a single book after college. Totally judging, but if you never, even by accident, read another book, I doubt your supporting the opera by buying season tickets. You can flame me, that was mean and I didn't really mean it. Frankly, that statistic scares me more than anything political, I don't know if I can exist in a world where 80% of the people never read. How do you find the other 20% to talk about books? I have to snopes that statistic, that cannot be true

I think that more than health insurance or dental insurance our national healthcare system ignores some blatantly obvious things. It ignores the fast food cesspools on every corner, the "convenience" stores full of sugary and caffeinated sh*t, and the groceries with 8 zillion kinds of sugary cereals marketed directly to little kids. We'd barely need health insurance (accept for accidents and major diseases not related to lifestyle) if there was no fast food or candy.

I think that things like snap should only be for fresh fruits and veggies. But I have a lot of radical views. haha

[rodeosweetheart]

We'd barely need health insurance (accept for accidents and major diseases not related to lifestyle) if there was no fast food or candy.


This just isn't true, as many of us here can attest through lifetime of experience with chronic illness. I wish folks would stop promulgating this, as it ends up blaming and shaming people for their illnesses.

[Gregg]

Seems to me you guys are all advocating a more organic approach combined with some balance. What a concept.

[ApatheticNoMore]

What might be true is most (but not all) of the people needing medical care would be Medicare age, if diet and lifestyle were much better (and hey let's say if there was much less pollution as well - although diet is usually a much bigger problem - responsible for a much greater proportion of cancers etc.). And maybe if stress was much less.

In such a world most would get sick due to "old age" in other words (leaving aside complications of pregnancy - pregnancy has killed woman in great quantities throughout history, only modern medicine makes it not so). If you live long enough it's hard to escape health problems and even with Medicare most of the costs are with the really old. But for some people born with say Type I diabetes, they were born needing insulin etc., some people were literally born needing medical care.

There is no way the current U.S. health care system will survive the unhealthiness of the population (at least not if it actually provides medical care, which it might try to increasingly get out of). But the current health care system is held together with wires and masking tape (not even duct tape!) anyway, so it's hardly any surprise. But even a better system would be challenged by such an unhealthy population, that is getting more and more unhealthy.

[ToomuchStuff]

If you don't vote for a THIRD PARTY candidate, don't bitch and moan if someone horrible becomes President or member of Congress!



So you are selective in what parts of the constitution you believe in?
Right to vote, yes
Right to freedom of speech/expression, hell no?

Being so selective can backfire.

I tend to think of GC also, or more aptly in some elections (not all), of Brewster's Millions (and my disappointment, that it isn't always an option, legally):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6u0utMpFXo

[ApatheticNoMore]

Really I'm not much of the "if you don't vote, don't complain" type. I was replying to another post that said "if you don't vote, don't bitch and moan if someone horrible becomes President" I was trying to point out how voting duopoly (Dem or Rep) guarantees horrible. So continuing to vote for them continues it.

And I think voting 3rd party probably sends a protest message much better than not voting (but this has a lot of assumptions, it assumes the voting machines aren't hacked for instance. I mean suppose a 3rd party candidate was winning, would Diebold switch all the votes anyway, voting having become nothing but legitimization even though the people were actually voting 3rd party? If one was convinced that was true, not voting makes more sense). Voting is by paper ballot here which makes me think it's less manipulated, but open primaries in this state eliminate most 3rd parties from the general election anyway, except for things like the Presidency.

[freshstart]

but open primaries in this state eliminate most 3rd parties from the general election anyway, except for things like the Presidency.

What? they can do that if the candidate had enough signatures or whatever they go through to get on the ballot?

[ApatheticNoMore]

What? they can do that if the candidate had enough signatures or whatever they go through to get on the ballot?

Well I don't know how interesting this topic is, it's just kind of an aside as to why I can talk up 3rd parties more than I can actually vote for them. But with the California open primary system (and maybe any state that in the future decides to adopt open primaries - Oregon was considering it I think, so this might be of interest to Oregonians) while all candidates are on the primary ballot only the top two candidates get on the general ballot. The top two candidates are sometimes unsurprisingly a Democrat versus a Republican. But often the top two candidates are both Democrats and so there isn't any Republican candidate in the general election at all (it's a pretty blue state ok - a red state with these rules might be the reverse). It very rarely includes a 3rd party candidate, though in theory and occasionally in practice it does, if they places 1st or 2nd in the primary. Whereas before open primaries, the top contender for every party that is approved in the state, major and minor parties, was on the general election ballot.

[freshstart]

This just isn't true, as many of us here can attest through lifetime of experience with chronic illness. I wish folks would stop promulgating this, as it ends up blaming and shaming people for their illnesses.

with 23 yrs of nursing under my belt, I would have to see statistics from a respectable agency, the NIH being an example, before believing this is true.

Yes, I had type 2 diabetics who did not take care of the problem and ended up with gangrenous wounds resulting in losing feet, then legs, etc. But the people who let it get that far, honestly did not have the intellectual ability to grasp the illness. We gear our health teaching to a 5th grade level, but if the insurance company only approves 2 visits for a guy like that, we can't really blame him if he can in no way learn that fast. Smokers with lung cancer, obesity resulting in multiple medical problems, all true. Now, I am probably biased because I only saw sick people and did not deal with the healthy population, but there are mind boggling types of disease that no one "caused". Way more than those with preventable disease. Messages that if you lived right, you wouldn't be sick make these people feel worse.

I am all for health promotion and prevention, early detection, free screening projects but it all needs to be increased ten fold, 100 fold? in oder to even make a dent. And money is not being spent enough on this when the sick need help that they have to fight insurance companies to get. While the health insurance and drug companies, are a mess, driving health care costs up while profiteering. Big pharma and these insurance companies need to have there feet held to the fire, pure corruption.

Health prevention and promotion is being taught in some schools, wonderful, catch kids early. Take out soda and candy machines at school, put healthy stuff in. And OMG, someone needs to address school lunch. Hi, honey, want a hot dog? tater tots? how about some more carbs and sugar? sugary drinks and cookies? you got it! oh, I forgot, they toss in an orange, that just about every kid throws out. I'm in a good school district, PTA and parents work on healthier things, they did get soda and candy machines out of the high school. But every week, we still have nachos day, since when are a pile of chips loaded with processed cheese "lunch"? Since forever.

I disagree that we would barely need health insurance if people lived healthy, but 100% agree these issues need to be worked on hard. We would spend less money overall if more of it went to health promotion. This needs the dollars backing it and the realization that we did not get this way overnight, lots of time and education will make a dent, yes, but lifestyle takes years to change or even a generation to change.

I disagree on SNAP because I feel strongly that "experiments" should not be imposed upon those that use social programs appropriately. If someone qualifies for SNAP, they qualify, who am I to say what they spend their money on (obviously not beer and cigarettes)? SNAP offers many educational offerings about eating healthy, this is great. Letting the rest of the population eat what they want but telling the poor what they can eat is not fair, IMO. Imposing better nutrition by say taxing junk heavily, fine but dictating what one group of people can eat simply because they are poor, is not the fair way to go about enacting sweeping change.

Your favorite, Obama, and Michelle have dedicated time and money to health promotion. The ACA resulted in no charges for a yearly physical and for women's Gyn visits and mammograms. Do you have any idea of the number of sick I've seen who would've had devastating illnesses caught earlier if they had had insurance and a free yearly physical?

Last thought (finally!), who is going to reach the population that needs healthy lifestyle teaching perhaps the most? Those who struggle with ESL or poverty or lack of ability to comprehend teaching if only done once? And how do you get people without transportation or have to take a bus, to buy into health promotion classes or how do you get them to even know these programs exist? Public health depts in cities are gone or barely getting by. VNA homecare gets in and gets out, they try to hit on health promotion but if only 2 visits are paid for, the gangrenous leg open wound has to take priority. If someone in power would listen to lowly old me and others who back this, there are ways to get nutritionists and nurses into these communities. Classes in the high rise low income housing, ask church leaders to let you in, etc. Best case scenario, doc identifies issues at physical and insurance has to pay for a nurse and nutritionist to work with obese diabetics in their home and not limit visits to 2. Best, best scenario? Primary docs and nurses going into the community by mobile van, knock out a bunch of physicals, have portable mammography, and then nurse beginning health teaching. Happening in a very few cities. In the end, if given the proper amount of time, it could help, but no one will pay for it now and doubt they would continue programs long enough to get the job started.

[jp1]

I think that more than health insurance or dental insurance our national healthcare system ignores some blatantly obvious things. It ignores the fast food cesspools on every corner, the "convenience" stores full of sugary and caffeinated sh*t, and the groceries with 8 zillion kinds of sugary cereals marketed directly to little kids. We'd barely need health insurance (accept for accidents and major diseases not related to lifestyle) if there was no fast food or candy.

I think that things like snap should only be for fresh fruits and veggies. But I have a lot of radical views. haha

The thing about fast food and junk food, though, is that they didn't suddenly appear out of a vacuum for no reason. They are the direct result of longstanding farm subsidies that were instituted initially in the 30's when people really were going hungry, as a way to get cheap calories out there so that people wouldn't go hungry anymore. They serve no rational purpose now except as welfare for big farmers. And they cause all sorts of bad eating habits because everyone, especially poor people that have few other choices, likes cheap food.

[kib]

Responding to the OP: This so totally depends on you! My toyed-with utopia is to live in a hotel room, like People with a capital P used to do in NYC, only I'd take a Residence Inn or something similar with a kitchen. Talk about zero return, but wow, everything is rented, there are no major bills except the one big one, there are no responsibilities, no personal landlord interaction, and if anything goes wrong or gets shabby you just move to a different room. Or town. Or continent. Of course this is probably in the realm of "rent" of $4000+ a month (not in NYC, in Ferguson), and not a very frugal option at all. And it's peculiarly transient no matter how long you stay in the same place; I might start to miss having roots. Still, sigh ...

More realistically, and I haven't read the whole thread so probably someone has already said this, driving an RV is super expensive and it's fiddly, always something else to do. But living in one that stays parked in one place definitely isn't, and has the perks of being moveable if you want to move, being small and contained, and giving you the option of living "in nature" without being over-run by it. An RV is the most inappropriate car in the world, but it's not an unreasonable house.

[jp1]

My aunt and uncle lived in a couple of rv's in their retirement. They had a smaller camper that fit on a pickup and a larger trailer that they could tow behind the pickup. They used them in varying ways over the years but the basic concept was to winter in AZ on a plot of land in an RV park that they owned and summer in a national park up north somewhere and work the summer month at a menial job in the park. (most often laundry room keeper) They'd get free parking at the park for the summer plus a few bucks in wages, had a paid for place to park in AZ for the winter and would spend maybe a month traveling to get between the two every spring and fall. Only drove 4 or 5,000 miles per year. They absolutely loved the life and kept doing it until my aunt's health declined to the point that they needed to settle somewhere where she could have regular access to a set assortment of medical providers. My mom always thought they were crazy to want to live so minimally. I always thought it sounded awesome to wake up in someplace really beautiful and even more awesome that the really awesome place wasn't always the same place.

[sweetana3]

We stayed at a Residence Inn recently and it was a lovely comfortable and fully stocked apartment. I would not have minded staying there permanently. Wonder if they have a monthly rate?

It was also well located with a grocery/CVS/restaurants/arena and Target within 2 blocks. Evening food 5 days a week and an excellent breakfast.

[Float On]

[QUOTE=sweetana3;210197]We stayed at a Residence Inn recently and it was a lovely comfortable and fully stocked apartment. /QUOTE]

We stayed in a lot of those when traveling for the art shows. The Marriott perks were pretty good, they always had a gift basket waiting for us. They were always well built and quiet. A lot of corporate travelers on the other hand when we first started out we'd use the Extended Stay America were more basic, always something broken in the room and noisier.

I've got a friend who is doing a US tour while moving from Steamboat Springs to "somewhere to land maybe in the NE". They headed for CA first, driving a truck pulling a camper and got as far as Vegas. The transmission gave out in the truck. She's been there 4 days while it's being fixed. She is definitely second guessing her "US tour" idea.

[shadowmoss]

I don't have the bill here for my 3 or so weeks at an Extended Stay here in Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago, but it was less than $1000 for a month, and the number $700 sticks in my brain for some reason. That may have been for the 3 weeks I actually ended up there. Yes, most of those places have monthly rental rates that when you factor in all the stuff you don't have to go out and get separately come in close to what an apartment costs. Depends on what you want. No responsibilities and the mobility of renting are looking better and better to me as I get older.

[iris lilies]

Responding to the OP: This so totally depends on you! My toyed-with utopia is to live in a hotel room, like People with a capital P used to do in NYC, only I'd take a Residence Inn or something similar with a kitchen. Talk about zero return, but wow, everything is rented, there are no major bills except the one big one, there are no responsibilities, no personal landlord interaction, and if anything goes wrong or gets shabby you just move to a different room. Or town. Or continent. Of course this is probably in the realm of "rent" of $4000+ a month (not in NYC, in Ferguson), and not a very frugal option at all. And it's peculiarly transient no matter how long you stay in the same place; I might start to miss having roots. Still, sigh ...

More realistically, and I haven't read the whole thread so probably someone has already said this, driving an RV is super expensive and it's fiddly, always something else to do. But living in one that stays parked in one place definitely isn't, and has the perks of being moveable if you want to move, being small and contained, and giving you the option of living "in nature" without being over-run by it. An RV is the most inappropriate car in the world, but it's not an unreasonable house.

i am telling you, the best housing deal,I've heard of is the senior living place where my friend's dad lived. It was two big rooms, a large closet, small kitchen with stove (they don't all have stoves) and all meals and laundry service (sheets and towels weekly) for $26,000 annually. Kib that beats your price by half.
Downside was that it's not walkable to anyplace interesting.
i think there awesome hidden gems in the Over-55 housing compounds.

[kib]

We stayed at a Residence Inn recently and it was a lovely comfortable and fully stocked apartment. I would not have minded staying there permanently. Wonder if they have a monthly rate?

It was also well located with a grocery/CVS/restaurants/arena and Target within 2 blocks. Evening food 5 days a week and an excellent breakfast. I know, right? Stick a yogurt and a banana in your purse and lunch is covered as well. :|(

Iris, I agree. While the "senior centers" are raking in the dough and can get seriously out of hand, the simple 55+ looks pretty darn good. But I do also agree with Shadowmoss, if you don't want a dishwasher and a fireplace, extended stay hotels can be super affordable, they're just not, like you point out about 55+, usually near anything interesting. I want to stay in the Algonquin and hang at the Round Table. :~)

[catherine]

We stayed at a Residence Inn recently and it was a lovely comfortable and fully stocked apartment. I would not have minded staying there permanently. Wonder if they have a monthly rate?

It was also well located with a grocery/CVS/restaurants/arena and Target within 2 blocks. Evening food 5 days a week and an excellent breakfast.

I feel the same way about hotels.. I do travel for business a lot, and I actually love to travel, and part of the fun is the hotel room! In fact just this week I stayed at the Embassy Suites in Phoenix and it was SO nice.. not luxurious, but just nice: a suite that was really well laid out and the foyer had a lot of plants and greenery and waterfalls, etc., and I was able to sit in the lobby and listen to the water while eating this wonderful strawberry and shrimp salad. I just felt really comfortable in that little suite! On occasion I've drawn pictures of layouts of rooms in case I ever decide to go really minimal. And to your point, sweetana, it was also well-located.

[pinkytoe]

Seems to me like hotels have gotten really expensive. Trying to find one now in Denver and having sticker shock.

[Float On]

Seems to me like hotels have gotten really expensive. Trying to find one now in Denver and having sticker shock.

Going by yourself or with a partner? Have you ever tried AirBnB? I keyed in "Entire place" and 4 nights in late August and saw a lot of 1 bedroom apartments for $80-$120 a night. I've loved using AirBnB. We've stayed in people's houses with them or rented entire apartments or casitas several times.

[Kestra]

Going by yourself or with a partner? Have you ever tried AirBnB? I keyed in "Entire place" and 4 nights in late August and saw a lot of 1 bedroom apartments for $80-$120 a night. I've loved using AirBnB. We've stayed in people's houses with them or rented entire apartments or casitas several times.

We used AirBnB when we went to Minneapolis last week and it was less than half the price of a hotel. Much nicer area as well, since hotels tend to be on major roads.

[freshstart]

I've had good luck with travelzoo when my plans are flexible. Gotten some great deals that often included dinner for hotels, especially boutique ones, that I would not have been able to do otherwise, it's fun. Once, a boutique hotel had on their website about how amazing their bedding is, all high end, Frette sheets. I love nice bedding and have always wanted but would never, ever buy Frette sheets, they are like a grand for a set. Got there and the sheets were from Kohl's! The hotel was a great deal and everything was so nice but I did mention at the desk for future bedding nuts, that maybe they should take Frette sheets off the website. She laughed and said no one had ever told them that before, how did I know? Because the label was Kohl's cheap house brand that I have at home! Otherwise, it was great, lol

[pinkytoe]

Actually staying at air bnb for our entire week of vacation but one night in a hotel is needed. Those extended stay places are actually very reasonable by comparison.