View Full Version : Drone Defense
A man in Kentucky shot down a drone (with a shotgun) that was equipped with a video camera and hovering in his back yard. He was charged with criminal mischief, but the article doesn't say exactly why. Around here that would be the charge for firing a gun off in town, which is a bad idea, but it doesn't say what kind of area he lives in. Since they talk about his sidewalks it seems logical to assume he lives in a developed area.
Anyway, the interesting question is whether or not you have a right to privacy that includes a right to not having such a machine on/over your property and then if you have a right to do something about it if one appears. I do live in town so would not shoot a drone down with a shotgun, but I would certainly have a sense of my privacy being violated if a video drone were hovering in my back yard. That would be accentuated if my kids were still young and visible to the camera. FYI, and in his defense, the accused has young daughters. The shotgun part is reckless if he does live in less than a rural setting, but I'm inclined to support his right to do something.
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/main/bullitt-county-man-arrested-for-gunning-down-a-drone-above-his-home/
Ultralight
7-31-15, 11:20am
We live in a post-privacy society. I think that constant surveillance is just the way things will be... Better get used to it.
Ultralight
7-31-15, 11:38am
Also worth noting: This whole thing smacks of dystopian sci-fi.
I read about this. I'm sympathetic to this guy's desire to escape yet another of the myriad ways in which technology is invading everyone's privacy, but the fact remains that what he did was illegal. Discharging firearms in densely populated areas is never a good idea. He defended himself by saying he used birdshot that was unlikely to cause anyone harm. Nevertheless, the law's the law, and if you break it you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences. There was no danger here to anyone's life and limb here. So he feared the drone might have been spying on his family. Situations like that should be dealt with by lawyers, not shotguns.
That said, the drone operator and his friends sounded like a bunch of inconsiderate jerks who had no concern for any annoyance or anxiety their toy might be causing. Obviously, this is another example of the law not keeping up with technology. People shouldn't be allowed to fly cameras around other people's property.
I think he has a right to privacy especially given his behavior (6 foot privacy fence for one) shows a history of wanting privacy.
The way he went about it though, was not right. Might as well have been shooting the camera off a Google streetview vehicle - or the security camera off a neighbor's house.
Ultralight
7-31-15, 1:37pm
He could have thrown water balloons at it. Or maybe thrown a net up in the air and captured it!
ApatheticNoMore
7-31-15, 1:39pm
jam it's electronics, if they could do that, it seems the best way to deal with it.
I believe in one account of this story, his sunbathing teenage daughters were mentioned as being the targets of the drone camerawork.
In the state of Washington, voyeurism is a class C felony.
If this had been a human being peeping on his daughter in a place where she had a reasonable expectation of privacy, in this state RCW 9A.16.050 allows the use of lethal force to prevent to commission of a felony upon your person.
Generally you can discharge a firearm even in areas that prohibit it if you are acting to prevent a greater harm. Whether his particular discharge in this case was "reckless" depends on the specific circumstances of the discharge.
Also - was the drone flying below minimum safe heights over this fellow's home/deck/daughters? FAR 91.119 specifies these, and I'll bet you that drone busted the limits. Would it be OK for someone to fly a drone over your property at 500 feet? 100 feet? 10 feet? 1 foot?
I am not going to condemn or applaud the guy until there are some real facts.
I know if there was a drone irritating me over my property, I'd first file a complaint in our local airspace, which is easy enough to do as I run the airport. If it really irritated me, I'd drop it, but probably not with a gun, I've got some pretty tricky electronics capabilities here at the house... If it was low though, dropping it with a shotgun would also be trivial, and present little danger to anyone else if done properly.
Ultralight
7-31-15, 1:58pm
Water balloons, man. Water balloons.
Water balloons, man. Water balloons.
I have some net launchers too, that'd be amusing.
Perhaps falconry will see a resurgence.
Ultralight
7-31-15, 2:11pm
Falconry! Best idea yet!
Ultralight
7-31-15, 2:14pm
If I capture a drone I am waterboarding it!
I do believe that discharging weapons in areas where populations are concentrated is a reckless act unless there is a clear threat of harm. That may or may not have existed in this case, but it seems like it would be hard to prove without evidence such as recorded video of the sunbathing daughters. That's just how I feel about firing off a few rounds in town. OTOH, if I happened to see a vehicle like this hovering around my house, over my property and if I really did have teenage daughters sunbathing in the back yard and if it really was obvious the thing was photographing them... Now, if a safe and legal method were available to neutralize it without the need for birdshot I might be a customer. Is there such a thing as a stun gun for drones?
Added: The conversation regarding laws against voyeurism and how they would apply in this situation are really fascinating. Is a drone with a standard resolution camera taking shots of your neighborhood from 500 feet voyeurism? Yea, probably not. A high res camera zoomed in from the same height? Any camera from 20 feet?
The way he went about it though, was not right. Might as well have been shooting the camera off a Google streetview vehicle - or the security camera off a neighbor's house.
What if the neighbor's camera is pointed straight into your daughter's bedroom window? I think we can all agree that shooting it off their house probably shouldn't be the first response, but how would that make you feel? What would be the proper course of action? What would be your (the proverbial your) course of action? How would the laws protect, or not protect, you?
Ultralight
7-31-15, 2:21pm
I am guessing the best you can do is close the window.
Ah, here's the story I remembered:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jul/30/william-merideth-arrested-after-shooting-down-1800/
I know a guy who claims to be working on a relatively inexpensive ECM device to jam quadricopter command signals. He says the trickiest part will be resolving FCC issues.
I do believe that discharging weapons in areas where populations are concentrated is a reckless act unless there is a clear threat of harm. .... That's just how I feel about firing off a few rounds in town.
You may believe that it is reckless, but it really depends on the *exact* circumstances of the discharge. At least, that's where the discussion goes once you end up in court, given how the laws are written in this state - the mere act of discharging isn't considered reckless. Admittedly, in many areas it would be quite difficult to avoid the reckless standard. I discharge firearms all the time in a concentrated population area, but I have a commercial bullet trap to keep the projectiles from leaving the safe area. This guy shot birdshot from a 12g shotgun, the safe zone we use for range planning is generally 300 yards. At 250 yards magnum birdshot will sprinkle gently from the sky, but could still present a hazard to your eyes if you were looking up without eye protection. Depending on this fellow's lot size, the angle he shot, the load he was using, the terrain, and any backstops he had, he may or may not have been being reckless, you can't tell until you look at the facts. He did *hit* the drone, so that was a pretty good backstop for most of the shot...
I know a guy who claims to be working on a relatively inexpensive ECM device to jam quadricopter command signals. He says the trickiest part will be resolving FCC issues.
The FCC would not approve a device for willfully interfering with the communications of others, in general.
Ultralight
7-31-15, 2:42pm
I hope he had a turkey choke in it! haha
My county almost banned drones outright last year, they backed off a bit when they realized the problem was more nuanced. For instance, there are legitimate uses of drones for public safety and research, and their initial legislation would have forbidden all uses.
Ultralight
7-31-15, 2:43pm
My county almost banned drones outright last year, they backed off a bit when they realized the problem was more nuanced. For instance, there are legitimate uses of drones for public safety and research, and their initial legislation would have forbidden all uses.
Cool county! Can I move there? :)
Cool county! Can I move there? :)
We banned jet skis in 1996 as well, I think they went to the state Supreme Court over that one.
I suspect here if they don't get banned over private property soon, they are going to start falling from the sky...
Ultralight
7-31-15, 2:55pm
What made you choose to live there?
My county almost banned drones outright last year, they backed off a bit when they realized the problem was more nuanced. For instance, there are legitimate uses of drones for public safety and research, and their initial legislation would have forbidden all uses.
There was some talk of that in our County, but apparently there are a few firms that provide agricultural services with drones as well as some disagreement over the degree of authority we had to make law in that area.
In Wisconsin, it's illegal to weaponize drones. I'm told they got the idea from a case in another State where some idiot tried to rig up a handgun on one. The police are required to obtain warrants when using them for gathering evidence, but not for search and rescue purposes.
What made you choose to live there?
My wife and I in 1998 undertook a conscious effort to select a place to raise our newly-born daughter in. We set up a list of requirements, then travelled to many of the likely candidate locations to see if we liked them.
Requirements included:
- temperate climate
- ocean/mountains nearby
- small town/small-feeling city, with nearby very rural areas
- active local music scene
- educated population
- low crime
- no state income tax
We discovered this whole county entirely by accident when we came up here to investigate Port Townsend, WA. We knew 5 minutes after we stepped off the boat onto one of these islands that this was "the place". Though we had all of our spreadsheets/charts/graphs, the decision was more of a feeling of "this is right", just from the appearance and the vibe of the area.
We scheduled a trip to come back up here for a month to investigate all of the islands here and select a spot. The day after we arrived, the ferry crashed into the dock on this island and destroyed the dock facilities, making travel on/off the island nearly impossible for about a month. Seeing how the community pulled together to handle this quite serious crisis (it's our main supply lifeline...) sealed the deal for us.
Ultralight
7-31-15, 3:09pm
My wife and I in 1998 undertook a conscious effort to select a place to raise our newly-born daughter in. We set up a list of requirements, then travelled to many of the likely candidate locations to see if we liked them.
Requirements included:
- temperate climate
- ocean/mountains nearby
- small town/small-feeling city, with nearby very rural areas
- active local music scene
- educated population
- low crime
- no state income tax
We discovered this whole county entirely by accident when we came up here to investigate Port Townsend, WA. We knew 5 minutes after we stepped off the boat onto one of these islands that this was "the place". Though we had all of our spreadsheets/charts/graphs, the decision was more of a feeling of "this is right", just from the appearance and the vibe of the area.
We scheduled a trip to come back up here for a month to investigate all of the islands here and select a spot. The day after we arrived, the ferry crashed into the dock on this island and destroyed the dock facilities, making travel on/off the island nearly impossible for about a month. Seeing how the community pulled together to handle this quite serious crisis (it's our main supply lifeline...) sealed the deal for us.
Wow! All of this is really smart, darn near book-worthy!
I am very much interested in moving to a small town...
In Wisconsin, it's illegal to weaponize drones.
I believe that it's also quite questionable at the Federal level. The BATF looks very closely at remote-operated and software-operated firearms, as it is pretty easy to put together something that technically is a machinegun, and that is a felony unless you have the correct manufacturers licenses and pay the tax stamps. These are mostly contained in individual case rulings at the moment, the BATF hasn't issued a general statement on the subject to my knowledge, so far they are looking at the details of each implementation.
...
We discovered this whole county entirely by accident when we came up here to investigate Port Townsend, WA. We knew 5 minutes after we stepped off the boat onto one of these islands that this was "the place". Though we had all of our spreadsheets/charts/graphs, the decision was more of a feeling of "this is right", just from the appearance and the vibe of the area. ...
I've said it before--all the spreadsheets/charts/graphs in the world can't beat a visceral response. I'm so glad you found your right spot.
I've said it before--all the spreadsheets/charts/graphs in the world can't beat a visceral response. I'm so glad you found your right spot.
This is an element of my van-living plan. That way I can try out places throughout Canada and/or the US without making any real commitment, and then get more settled if I find the ideal spot.
freshstart
7-31-15, 6:02pm
for the slow amongst us, why do civilians need drones and why don't they have to follow trespassing or privacy laws? I'll probably get one, beat it with a tennis racket and it's just my Amazon order, lol
curious- anyone know how much a drone costs?
for the slow amongst us, why do civilians need drones and why don't they have to follow trespassing or privacy laws? I'll probably get one, beat it with a tennis racket and it's just my Amazon order, lol
curious- anyone know how much a drone costs?
Cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/UDI-U818A-2-4GHz-RC-Quadcopter/dp/B00D3IN11Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1438385537&sr=8-2&keywords=drone
As with so many things, such as copyright law, technology has moved faster than the law. Over time it will catch up either at the legislative level or through case law.
for the slow amongst us, why do civilians need drones ...
This is America. That which is not forbidden is allowed. "Need" is not a useful way to proceed. Nobody "needs" a fast car, or a big boat, or a porterhouse steak, or a fancy dress, or ...
Drones are fun - kids around here use them to get great photo shots. They are handy for stealthily watching some of our local wildlife. They have hundreds of fun or utilitarian applications. The trick is to use them responsibly, without intruding on others.
freshstart
7-31-15, 8:20pm
wow, that is cheap! I thought they were some low flying, large-ish, military type thing. those uses sound cool, it's the same with anything, people always find a way to be a jerk. Like guys taking phone photos of up girls' skirts at the mall.
ToomuchStuff
8-1-15, 1:16am
BAE!
I thought you were thinking back when this video was linked to a story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smv7cBzg-Ok
Drones go from cheap, to at least $15K. A charity BBQ group I know, was doing one of their annual cook-offs and had the park licensed for their event, as always. One of them was filming it from above with his $3k drone, when it shot off, out of his control. Being that there is both a local police station and tower nearby and a former oil refinery, he thought that one of them may have seized control, remotely, due to closeness, to the park. Checked with both and neither knew anything about his drone, but said he was alright for what he was doing and its height. Pretty sure that someone used a stronger transmitter and absconded with it from a street between it and the refinery. They can be signal hijacked.
Seems like the U.S. is becoming a big circus.......a free-for-all. You just can't expect the masses to make reasonable decisions.
Just heard on the news last night that a passenger jet was on descent to Kennedy airport and had a near-miss with a drone.
With all our property, and a lot of it we can't easily get to, I would love to have a drone to check out different parts of the property....especially where we have bad creek erosion with so many floods.....and also easily check to see who's dumped trash on the other side of our property, or if I'm hearing people on our property. But......if I got one, that would mean I think it's okay for everyone to have one, and I don't.......so I won't be getting one.
Seems like we can't keep up with all the crap being invented out there. What a circus.
This is America. That which is not forbidden is allowed. "Need" is not a useful way to proceed. Nobody "needs" a fast car, or a big boat, or a porterhouse steak, or a fancy dress, or ...
Drones are fun - kids around here use them to get great photo shots. They are handy for stealthily watching some of our local wildlife. They have hundreds of fun or utilitarian applications. The trick is to use them responsibly, without intruding on others.
What I thought was an interesting example - a while back (not sure if this would qualify as a "drone", but it was flown RC and had a camera on it), someone used one to show a factory was indeed discharging waste into water running through their property.
Although the laws coming out over what people can and can't photograph may prevent these kinds of uses.
flowerseverywhere
8-1-15, 1:30pm
I have seen two fly over inaccessible areas wher bald eagles, owls and several endangered species nest. I called fish and wildlife but even finding who was flying them seemed difficult to figure out.
I really don't like them harassing wildlife, getting in the way of fire fighters, which recently happenied, or spying on young women. That is creepy and wrong.
for the slow amongst us, why do civilians need drones and why don't they have to follow trespassing or privacy laws? I'll probably get one, beat it with a tennis racket and it's just my Amazon order, lol
I've been ordering stock tanks from Amazon.........how many drones would it take to deliver one of those? Would they work together? Would they drop it on someone's head? Car? House? Would it take a drone on steroids? :~)
As much business as Amazon does.........can you imagine how busy the skies would be? :(
As much business as Amazon does.........can you imagine how busy the skies would be? :(
It'd keep the trapshooters happy though :-)
I've been ordering stock tanks from Amazon.........how many drones would it take to deliver one of those? Would they work together? Would they drop it on someone's head? Car? House? Would it take a drone on steroids? :~)
I would be trying to outrun being flattened by my 50 lbs of dog food, lol
Pretty sure that someone used a stronger transmitter and absconded with it from a street between it and the refinery. They can be signal hijacked.
and I have just found my line in the sand regarding new technology, my drone being hacked, lol. When it comes down to everyone has a drone or two but I don't, I'm just gonna act like my mom who cannot figure out call waiting and pretend no one is saying I must be senile if I can't corral my drones. What? She has NO drones? Wow, she's OLD.
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