View Full Version : i had a date, or 2
i have actually been on 2 dates in the last week. i kinda made myself go because i would easily stay shut up at home. Last night i am pretty sure i was not great company but it was a movie. i got my year end review and it was horrible, i am on an improvement plan now. that is another story.
Meanwhile i have been talking to 2 different guys, have been out on 2 dates with a good amount of phone calls. Not feeling head over heels but also am quite comfortable with them. one is a fellow scorpio and nice enough, may be more on the conservative side. i have an orange flag since he has been separated and is not divorced so he is still working out the kid thing and the ex thing.
the other guy is super health food and athletic and not a jerk about it. really comfortable to talk to, has kids in early high school. he has been divorced for several years and has a good relationship with his ex but we didn't talk ex's really. i haven't heard from him since we saw each other on thursday but he also told me he was busy.
i am only concerned that i don't have a lot of physical interest in them or anyone right now. i think it is more me than anything, although the first guy i would be more interested in friends while he goes through divorce process.
Yes, it's probably good to get out there once in a while, not that I know much about it.
I'm recently separated so the dating thing is starting to come up again. It's so confusing. I don't know what is a date, what isn't, when is it appropriate to ask if they have a girlfriend if it's a super-casual, just-met kind of thing?
I'm finding I'm only physically interested in guys if there's a strong intellectual match/kindred spirits kind of thing going on. Being physically attracted based on looks alone isn't really a thing for me.
Zoe Girl, hopefully you don't mind a bit of a highjack. This seems a good place to talk dating a bit.
Does anyone else have a problem with an all or nothing kind of thing with potential partners? Like, either the guy is meh to me, and I don't have an interest in friendship or casual dating, or he's like the coolest person ever and I just have to learn more about him. There doesn't seem to be a lot in the middle for me. Maybe it's just my personality type - I get overly excited about new things and new possibilities. I also don't really care whether I date or have a relationship, in general, so I'm not willing to bother with men who don't seem that they'd be quite compatible with me. I only want to date if I meet a specific man who seems date-worthy.
iris lilies
8-12-15, 11:21am
Yes, it's probably good to get out there once in a while, not that I know much about it.
I'm recently separated so the dating thing is starting to come up again. It's so confusing. I don't know what is a date, what isn't, when is it appropriate to ask if they have a girlfriend if it's a super-casual, just-met kind of thing?
I'm finding I'm only physically interested in guys if there's a strong intellectual match/kindred spirits kind of thing going on. Being physically attracted based on looks alone isn't really a thing for me.
Zoe Girl, hopefully you don't mind a bit of a highjack. This seems a good place to talk dating a bit.
Does anyone else have a problem with an all or nothing kind of thing with potential partners? Like, either the guy is meh to me, and I don't have an interest in friendship or casual dating, or he's like the coolest person ever and I just have to learn more about him. There doesn't seem to be a lot in the middle for me. Maybe it's just my personality type - I get overly excited about new things and new possibilities. I also don't really care whether I date or have a relationship, in general, so I'm not willing to bother with men who don't seem that they'd be quite compatible with me. I only want to date if I meet a specific man who seems date-worthy.
it depends on what percentage of men you find "meh", although I have to say that getting "overly excited" about a man upon first meeting seems problematic.
you are making these decisions on superficial criteria. I can't see how you can get to know someone well enough to reject them on a first meeting, that is assuming the guy is reasonably in your age range and physically ok. But maybe I'm not reading this situation correctly.
Meet Up groups can be great because it's easier to casually interact with people several times over several occasions. That true for me, anyway. We go to parties where we meet new people , and we might see them a few times and I will think "we've got to invite him/her for drinks" after talking to them a few times.
also just going out with a group keeps one's social skills lubricated. Same for going out one on one, and don't worry if it is a "date" because the label doesn't matter. Maybe you both will become interested in each other romantically, maybe not, but regardless of the path it takes, you will be going out.
it depends on what percentage of men you find "meh", although I have to say that getting "overly excited" about a man upon first meeting seems problematic.
you are making these decisions on superficial criteria. I can't see how you can get to know someone well enough to reject them on a first meeting, that is assuming the guy is reasonably in your age range and physically ok. But maybe I'm not reading this situation correctly.
Meet Up groups can be great because it's easier to casually interact with people several times over several occasions. That true for me, anyway. We go to parties where we meet new people , and we might see them a few times and I will think "we've got to invite him/her for drinks" after talking to them a few times.
also just going out with a group keeps one's social skills lubricated. Same for going out one on one, and don't worry if it is a "date" because the label doesn't matter. Maybe you both will become interested in each other romantically, maybe not, but regardless of the path it takes, you will be going out.
Thanks for your thoughts. To clarify, the men that I really see/saw potential with, it has been more than 1 meeting. Enough contact, whether online, work, or group activities to judge their interests and character fairly well. I haven't had a one-time meeting that resulted in anything in the positive direction. More often the one-time meeting is enough to reject. Example: a few months back I went to an activity, and spoke to a man for maybe a minute, maybe 2. Later on he called and asked me out. But I declined because at the in-person meeting I had had zero interest, so it didn't make sense to bother. If there had been more than zero, yes, I probably would have given him a chance.
Anyhow, thanks. I know I'm over-thinking everything and shouldn't worry about whether something is a date or not, at an early stage. It's just hard to apply reasoning sometimes.
iris lilies
8-12-15, 9:46pm
Thanks for your thoughts. To clarify, the men that I really see/saw potential with, it has been more than 1 meeting. Enough contact, whether online, work, or group activities to judge their interests and character fairly well. I haven't had a one-time meeting that resulted in anything in the positive direction. More often the one-time meeting is enough to reject. Example: a few months back I went to an activity, and spoke to a man for maybe a minute, maybe 2. Later on he called and asked me out. But I declined because at the in-person meeting I had had zero interest, so it didn't make sense to bother. If there had been more than zero, yes, I probably would have given him a chance.
Anyhow, thanks. I know I'm over-thinking everything and shouldn't worry about whether something is a date or not, at an early stage. It's just hard to apply reasoning sometimes.
Aha! Got it. Well, good luck,in the social game.
freshstart
8-13-15, 11:16am
I'm finding I'm only physically interested in guys if there's a strong intellectual match/kindred spirits kind of thing going on. Being physically attracted based on looks alone isn't really a thing for me.
I also don't really care whether I date or have a relationship, in general, so I'm not willing to bother with men who don't seem that they'd be quite compatible with me. I only want to date if I meet a specific man who seems date-worthy.
the first line is me exactly. I did Match over 10 yrs ago, it was fun, I met some great and some very strange people. My friends would get upset that I did not care for some men who sounded great in email and were very attractive. I'd meet them and sometimes be so bored, I'd pretend the kids needed me. And the line I heard the most from successful men was always, "I am fiscally conservative, socially liberal." Found out very quickly this is a man code thing and run, we have zero in common and the "socially liberal" part means "I want to take your pants off but know you won't let me unless I say this to melt your heart". My friends didn't get that smart and funny trumps looks and money. Had 2 one yr "relationships" (I don't even count those, they were not meaningful in my life) and then met the man I subsequently had a relationship for 7 yrs. He wasn't unattractive, but his brain and dry wit drew me in. Heavy reader. We lived an hour apart and agreed we would not uproot our kids so marriage and co-habitation were off the table until they were launched. Well, that, while not understandable or desirable to many, was perfect for me. We had the same schedule with kid free time so we saw each other often, every so often we got the whole crew together.
Doing it over 7 yrs turned out to be great, I learned a ton about him without uprooting my own life. He bought a house, it was then that it became clear he was a hoarder, did not identify himself as one, so this, to me, means he ain't changing soon, could I live like this? The answer was no, I have a hoarding mom and trying to deal with her has driven me nuts and she actually wants to change. Don't see you have a problem? As someone said, 'not my circus, not my monkeys'. Then I saw his way of handling money was not similar to mine as he had said. He turned out to be a spender, stopped retirement savings and he was 9 yrs older than me and paid for his bills somehow using an interest only mortgage he had. He had to pay the interest monthly, but somehow it also worked as a checking acct. Didn't get it but it did not sound good. Could I marry into this? Again, no. Then he took gentle political ribbing to a whole new level, bombarding me with some really offensive humor. I can laugh at jokes about liberals, I cannot laugh when the jokes are increasingly homophobic, racist and anti-women. If you can find ten horribly offensive homophobic or racist jokes every few days and send them to your contact list, truly believing you are funny and people are blocking you and stop speaking to you, two of your siblings drop you, maybe you'd want to re-read and think about what you are sending. I begged him, leave me off this contact list, it is making me angry and I'm not liking the person you are showing yourself to be and I would just be bombarded with more. Would I keep such a person as a friend? No. As a life partner? Hell NO. Had I moved in with him when he bought his house, I would've learned even quicker that he was not the man I thought and I'd have uprooted my kids, have a long commute to work and to visit my sick mom. And we would once again, have to start over. I liked the life the kids and I had and don't regret at all "wasting 7 yrs" as my friends say (friends who were pushing for us to live together or marry way too early). I was so wrong about him that he actually bought an "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" t shirt, as well as other similar items. He would wear them to get my goat and he wanted a big "fight" over changing his clothes before we went out. I wouldn't play. Let some angry gay men or black men or women, whomever was being insulted du jour, kick his ass for wearing that shit in public. He always changed. I wish I had stolen some as proof to me that it can take years to realize what an asshole someone truly is.
I totally agree with your second statement. Right now, this being a particularly bad time to even think about dating as I've been so sick, I'm realizing once again, there are times in my life that I don't particularly care that I am not in a relationship. Before I got sick and that relationship had ended a while ago, everyone was saying get back on the horse, do match or whatever people do now. I wasn't grieving the loss of that relationship (this is what my friends thought), I just did not feel like dating and trying again to find smart, funny, ethical, non-hoarder, non-bigot, fiscally responsible man again. This man is a unicorn, BTW. I totally did not want a relationship, if by some miraculous chance, it fell into my lap, I'd maybe think about it. But at that time I could not have cared less. Then I got sick and I am so glad I did not pursue dating or entered a relationship, only to suddenly be quite ill. I can barely creep along, trying not to scare the kids or change their lives too much (this isn't really working), take care of myself, which is a full time job. A man having been there before this started and then have to deal with him and his needs when I truly cannot, would've been a total PITA, he'd have to be Christ incarnate to be supportive and help during this mess. Since Christ is very busy, this is a non-problem, I did not have to end another relationship. I very much want to be, not alone because I want friends and family, so I guess I want very much to remain uncoupled for what will probably be a long time. And I do not see anything wrong with that. My friends do and after reading this post, I'm thinking, I need friends with better judgment!
So long story LONG, I hear where you are coming from, I totally get it. May a unicorn be in your future if you'd like or not, and that's fine, too.
ApatheticNoMore
8-13-15, 11:36am
I really think physical interest (chemistry) is separate dimension than either looks or personality, that's why they call it chemistry. But yes I do think you need to not hate the guy :) But I also haven't always cared if there wasn't a strong physical interest if I was attracted to someone as a whole person. The cohabiting thing seems like a part of a relationship I'd never be any hurry for. I like having my own place, I do.
Single, coupled, kids, no kids .... I wish adults would let other adults make these decisions for themselves. I get so weary of opinions thrown around on these things. We are not in junior high any more!
Before I got sick and that relationship had ended a while ago, everyone was saying get back on the horse, do match or whatever people do now. I wasn't grieving the loss of that relationship (this is what my friends thought), I just did not feel like dating and trying again to find smart, funny, ethical, non-hoarder, non-bigot, fiscally responsible man again. This man is a unicorn, BTW. I totally did not want a relationship, if by some miraculous chance, it fell into my lap, I'd maybe think about it.
Heh, I love this unicorn comparison! :)
I feel the same way though, actually.
Yep, holding out for a unicorn. I'm fine with that.
Ultralight
8-13-15, 3:55pm
I was in the dating world for about two or so years (April 2013 to January 2015). I had a couple of serious-but-short relationships in that time. The women both wanted to have kids with me, so it did not work out. They stuck around long enough to see if they thought I could be convinced.
But during those two years I went on more than 75 first dates. I had perhaps a dozen second dates and a half dozen third dates.
The vast majority of these "potential" romantic interests flopped because:
1. I did not want kids
Or...
2. I am an atheist
A few ended because I am teetotal or because I am a minimalist. A few also ended because I found the women's personalities to be obnoxious or, as it turned out, our values did not match.
But by and large, my biggest barrier to a relationship was not wanting kids.
Ultra lite - You and would get along famously. I like all those things the others didn't like. But I'm 20 years older and happily monogamously married. :)
There are women out there like me. I tend to find likeminded people at secular science type places. Have you heard of TAM?
https://www.amazingmeeting.com/
Ultralight
8-13-15, 4:10pm
Ultra lite - You and would get along famously. I like all those things the others didn't like. But I'm 20 years older and happily monogamously married. :)
There are women out there like me. I tend to find likeminded people at secular science type places. Have you heard of TAM?
https://www.amazingmeeting.com/
Tammy:
I don't mind you being 20 years older than me, in fact... I consider that a really great selling-point! You being married is a barrier though, but the bigger barrier is that I have a girlfriend. haha
I am the heretic in my secular community here! I am not a big fan of science/technology -- but that is a topic for another thread or not. haha
Most secular science type groups are full of nerdy, socially awkward guys.
What is the old joke? "What's the different between a Star Trek convention and an atheist convention?"
"Nothing!"
haha
In my secular groups here in Ohio the ratio is something like 8 men to 2 women. So the women really get their pick! I personally know a very popular woman in the secular community here who has a husband, 3 boyfriends, and a "friend." The guys all know each other and are friends and know the deal too. But with so few women in the community, apparently they are agreeable to sharing. She and her arrangement is not unique either. I know others here in the some situation.
But during those two years I went on more than 75 first dates. I had perhaps a dozen second dates and a half dozen third dates.
This part sounds like the worst thing ever. I can't imagine having to talk to that many random guys. Though, most of them would feel the same way about me, with all my eccentricities. I try to be really open and my true, weird self right away, so I can weed out the wrong ones early.
Ultralight
8-13-15, 5:04pm
Want to hear some pretty awesome first date stories?
Want to hear some pretty awesome first date stories?
Probably. I can only imagine... Some people think you and I are the weird ones, but I beg to differ. "Regular" society is so messed up IMO.
Ultralight
8-13-15, 6:36pm
One woman told me, in a public place within the first five minutes of the date how "amazing" her v-gina is! I awkwardly said: "Okay... well, I have never met one I didn't like."
Another woman, in a dog park with people all around, stood right in front of me, entered my personal space bubble, cradled my face in both hands and looked deeply into my eyes. After an awkward moment she asked: "Have you every considered mutton chop sideburns?"
On a different first date a woman's dog went berserk on my dog and my knocked one of Harlan's teeth out.
At another dog park date, with a different woman, she told me after an hour long date that she thought she was "...just a full time lesbian."
One first date a woman made fart jokes and used the phrase "cut the cheese."
I went on a first date with a woman who made six jokes about cannibalism. I was afraid she was going to kill me and eat me if I went back to her apartment!
I went on a first date with a very attractive woman -- my type in so many ways from her hair to her curves to her atheism. About 20 minutes in I was asking her about her goals. She said: "I want to start a clothing line for lesbians." I thought... what? Then I asked: "Are you a lesbian?" Yes, she was! It got awkward for a moment until I said: "This ain't my first rodeo. I have been on a date with a full time lesbian before." We laughed. Later on in the date I found out she had baby-fever and just wanted my batter as a donation!
Wow, turns out I'm super normal.
Great stories.
freshstart
8-13-15, 10:40pm
I personally know a very popular woman in the secular community here who has a husband, 3 boyfriends, and a "friend." The guys all know each other and are friends and know the deal too. But with so few women in the community, apparently they are agreeable to sharing. She and her arrangement is not unique either. I know others here in the some situation.
5 men??? But I doubt she is picking up the dirty socks of all 5 men, lol. I dated two guys briefly before choosing (the wrong one, the closet homophobe) and they had easy, common names that do not sound similar, they didn't look alike. I got the names wrong so much, I just stuck with "hey.....you! How are you?" I got their colleges mixed up, how many sibs they had, which one hated dogs, I just picked one so I didn't have to deal with this. 5 men who have names would make my brain explode. Maybe she does it the Dr Seuss way, Thing 1, Thing 2, Thing 3, etc.
If you put in your online dating info that you do not want children, why do women always think they can change that? That's a pretty big thing to change. Pick one of the other bazillion profiles of men who want kids.
Ultralight
8-14-15, 7:57am
5 men??? But I doubt she is picking up the dirty socks of all 5 men, lol. I dated two guys briefly before choosing (the wrong one, the closet homophobe) and they had easy, common names that do not sound similar, they didn't look alike. I got the names wrong so much, I just stuck with "hey.....you! How are you?" I got their colleges mixed up, how many sibs they had, which one hated dogs, I just picked one so I didn't have to deal with this. 5 men who have names would make my brain explode. Maybe she does it the Dr Seuss way, Thing 1, Thing 2, Thing 3, etc.
If you put in your online dating info that you do not want children, why do women always think they can change that? That's a pretty big thing to change. Pick one of the other bazillion profiles of men who want kids.
The five men are all progressive types, so they pick up their own socks. Times have changed, freshstart!
I could tell you why women think they can change that but the slang terms are slightly offensive (though apt!). Want me to explain and keep the language as clean and "bleeped" as possible? haha
The other thing is, that most men don't put "WANTS KIDS!" on their profile. They put "might want kids" because they hover between "does not want kids" and "might want kids." Putting down "Does not want kids" means you are less likely to get a date -- much less likely. If I wanted kids I could have gone on 2 dates a day, easily.
"Don't want kids" would have been a major selling point for me. Right up there with "not religious."
ApatheticNoMore
8-14-15, 11:25am
"Don't want kids" would have been a major selling point for me."
vasectomy would have been a major selling point :devil:.
vasectomy would have been a major selling point :devil:.
I had a vasectomy nearly 30 years ago. That's when I became quite a catch. ;)
iris lilies
8-14-15, 11:37am
vasectomy would have been a major selling point :devil:.
hahaha yes! Back eons ago I was dating someone and neither of us were interested in having children (or at least I wasn't even thinking of that at the time) so I asked him why he didn't have a vasectomy. He was in his late 30 s. I'll be damned,he went out and got a vasectomy. I felt a little responsible for that but he assured me he had been thinking about it anyway before we talked. We had a long and happy relationship.
by the time I was in my 30s I knew I didn't want children, had never wanted them really. I told DH before we got married that I didn't want children, was 95% sure about that. He would have liked a kid or two, but he took me on anyway.
also I'm a non believer. UltralightAnglers I belief system would not have bothered me. But a match is more than those things.
vasectomy would have been a major selling point :devil:.
Yes, having "that already taken care of" kind of shuts down the kids conversation. Shows them you're 100% sure. Personally I was more concerned about having bio kids, than kids in general. So if the perfect guy already had a kid, or I needed to raise my siblings' kids, I could handle that. But my body was not making a baby, no how, no way.
Ultralight
8-14-15, 12:33pm
I actually had a woman I went on two dates with tell me this:
"I am 34 now. If I don't meet someone, marry them, and have a kid by age 37 then I will call you back. I'll consider dating you at that point. Sound like a plan?"
I was like... "Uh...seriously?"
After I told her I was not going to wait 3 years, this same woman (as well as a few others) suggested I get a "secret vasectomy." This way I could date anyone I wanted and just be like: "Hey, I am trying! For some reason it just won't take!" She said this would surely turn my romantic life around, though it would require much dishonesty.
Other people suggested I date a single mom with one kid because these types of women would know how hard having/raising a kid is and would be agreeable to not having any more. But I did not want to raise someone else's kid. I do plenty of this with my tax dollars.
A few other people suggested I date only post-menopausal women. I thought this was a good suggestion actually. I took this suggestion, but then expanded it to women who were largely past their better reproductive years -- so women in their 40s and up.
iris lilies
8-14-15, 1:58pm
...A few other people suggested I date only post-menopausal women. I thought this was a good suggestion actually. I took this suggestion, but then expanded it to women who were largely past their better reproductive years -- so women in their 40s and up.
In just a few years you will be sitting pretty because women your age Who had their children early will be footloose and fancy free with their children out of the house or at least legally adult age. While their children will always be a huge part of their lives, the moms will not have to plan their lives around child care. Also, you might find being a grandparent fun. I had no interest in having children but am a bit attracted to the idea of grandchildren.
I just remembered a guy I did like in a moderate way - enough to ask out for coffee, not enough to be on my kindred spirit list - so it may be possible for me. Unfortunately, at the time I met him I was very recently separated (and job-quitting) and was operating in a daze. I'm hoping to run into him again sometime, which I should be able to orchestrate as he works for a company that I'm a client of. After so many months, and just one brief meeting I think it'd be weird to just email him (at work), and I'm still not convinced I actually want to date anyone, but if I get another chance to talk to him in person I'll take advantage of that.
Ultralight
8-14-15, 2:19pm
In just a few years you will be sitting pretty because women your age Who had their children early will be footloose and fancy free with their children out of the house or at least legally adult age. While their children will always be a huge part of their lives, the moms will not have to plan their lives around child care. Also, you might find being a grandparent fun. I had no interest in having children but am a bit attracted to the idea of grandchildren.
Well, as I mentioned. I currently have a gf. She is significantly older than me. So who knows if I will be single again some day or not.
I would be open to dating a woman whose kids were grown up and living their own lives. But I don't really want to be a step-dad or even a grandparent of any kind. I don't make enough money for that and I like to spend my free time doing things I enjoy (fishing, reading, foraging, hanging out with my dog, etc.), not baby-sitting! haha
Ultralight
8-14-15, 2:29pm
I just remembered a guy I did like in a moderate way - enough to ask out for coffee, not enough to be on my kindred spirit list - so it may be possible for me. Unfortunately, at the time I met him I was very recently separated (and job-quitting) and was operating in a daze. I'm hoping to run into him again sometime, which I should be able to orchestrate as he works for a company that I'm a client of. After so many months, and just one brief meeting I think it'd be weird to just email him (at work), and I'm still not convinced I actually want to date anyone, but if I get another chance to talk to him in person I'll take advantage of that.
This is going to sound cynical. But stay with me for a moment...
How much does it really matter who you partner with? Granted, you want someone who can support themselves, someone who is reliable and respectful for the most part; you want someone you have fun with.
But beyond that, must they be your "soul mate?"
Think of it this way: You probably pared down much of what you owned in an effort to live simply. You probably cut out distractions, time wasters, toxic "friendships," and so on. You likely tossed out some "luxuries" too. But you are just as happy in life without all the former "must-haves."
Maybe finding a partner is the same way. You just pick someone you like and who is reasonably enjoyable to be around.
Sometimes wanting everything leaves you with nothing.
This was my situation. I wanted it all and, for a while, lost what I did have and had nothing.
I also think there is a lot of false bravado in America. The whole set of refrains like: "I don't even need a man!" or "I am single and lovin' it!" or "I am independent!"
Many women I went on dates would say this stuff to me and it was very off-putting. Like: "Why are we on a date then? And why do you have 4 dating profiles, one for each dating site you're on?"
I just prefer to be candid: "I am happier and experience more joy in a long term relationship. I 'need' a woman in my life to be happy and joyful at that level."
Maybe since I am candid about this I am also vulnerable. But I am okay with that. I am a big boy and can take my bruises.
Does any of this rambling make sense? haha
freshstart
8-14-15, 2:57pm
The five men are all progressive types, so they pick up their own socks. Times have changed, freshstart!
I could tell you why women think they can change that but the slang terms are slightly offensive (though apt!). Want me to explain and keep the language as clean and "bleeped" as possible? haha
The other thing is, that most men don't put "WANTS KIDS!" on their profile. They put "might want kids" because they hover between "does not want kids" and "might want kids." Putting down "Does not want kids" means you are less likely to get a date -- much less likely. If I wanted kids I could have gone on 2 dates a day, easily.
men picking up dirty socks? times have changed! Although my ex-husband, despite being older, would never have left that for me, did not expect a char woman when he got married.
you can tell me why women do that if you want to, wouldn't offend me
that's true about your profile. Are you open to dating a woman who already has a child but doesn't want anymore? That's how I felt when I did Match but there was no option for "I'll accept your kids, I have kids, but No More". It was either you wanted kids or you did not. If you said no because you don't want new kids, a divorced guy with kids, I would assume, would think you don't want his kids and that whole demographic passes you over.
Personally, I would become Thing 6 and enjoy the ride, lol!
ApatheticNoMore
8-14-15, 3:05pm
I'm not sure people decide they don't want kids as a very young child as I did because they have a happy well-adjusted childhood. So wanting both 1) doesn't want kids and 2) not neurotic. I'm sure there's an overlap there, but it may be more the exception than the rule
Although I've read something like 1/3 of woman never have kids, so even if at one point in life they were convinced they wanted them, for whatever reason it never actually happened. Maybe some of them were the undecided about kids on their profiles :~)
I'm not sure people decide they don't want kids as a very young child as I did because they have a happy well-adjusted childhood. So wanting both 1) doesn't want kids and 2) not neurotic. I'm sure there's an overlap there, but it may be more the exception than the rule
Although I've read something like 1/3 of woman never have kids, so even if at one point in life they were convinced they wanted them, for whatever reason it never actually happened.
That is a very apt point, and one I've never thought of. But it definitely applies to myself. I don't think that's the only reason I don't want kids, but it certainly affected my decision. It was when I was 13-14 and my parents decided to have their fifth in a fairly messed up situation, that I decided enough was enough. I checked out of the whole family/baby thing then; I didn't help care for #5 much at all, and decided against kids at about that same age.
People see kids as a responsibility, but that's only part of the picture, they're also the greatest joy a person can experience. Of course, that didn't keep us from stopping at one, although I often wish we'd had a few more.
freshstart
8-14-15, 3:27pm
"Don't want kids" would have been a major selling point for me. Right up there with "not religious."
me too!
I figure I will be old enough for Old People Match by the time I feel like dating again. So at least the "wanting kids" issue is done. But they probably have a "want grandchildren" option, lol. And I'm judging, but probably more religion and family values.
Ultralight
8-14-15, 3:28pm
People see kids as a responsibility, but that's only part of the picture, they're also the greatest joy a person can experience. Of course, that didn't keep us from stopping at one, although I often wish we'd had a few more.
I thought you got a v-sec...
I disagree that having children is the greatest joy a person can experience.
I think the greatest joy a person can experience is... uh... what is a SFW term? Uh... "tumbling!" And after that, maybe fishing. haha
Ultralight
8-14-15, 3:39pm
That is a very apt point, and one I've never thought of. But it definitely applies to myself. I don't think that's the only reason I don't want kids, but it certainly affected my decision. It was when I was 13-14 and my parents decided to have their fifth in a fairly messed up situation, that I decided enough was enough. I checked out of the whole family/baby thing then; I didn't help care for #5 much at all, and decided against kids at about that same age.
When I was a kid, like most people I vaguely thought I would have children "someday." But when I got a little older and saw teen moms and a lot of overwhelmed parents I just thought: "That looks like a lot of work."
In my 20s I dated women who wanted kids within 5-10 years. So I told them: "Someday!" Lucky for me we broke up or they changed their minds. But even as I said: "Someday!" I was thinking to myself: "Hopefully someday never comes..."
There was about 6 months when I was married when I wanted to have a kid the old fashioned way. I don't know what came over me, maybe it was that I got a good job with benefits and so did she. But my ex-wife and I discussed it quite a bit. Eventually she said she did not want to do it. So I let the issue fade. Then I shortly came back to my "I don't want kids!" senses. haha
It would have been a disaster had she and I had a kid. I would certainly been a single dad raising the kid on my own within a few years. And I would have been doing all the work too, until my ex-wife would have exited the situation. She was not very nurturing and had little patience. Her mom was that way, as was her sister (who eventually left her husband and kids -- and her husband was a druggie felon, not the kind of person you let have primary custody of your kids).
When my ex and I got a puppy and it required frequent training, walks, and to be taken out in the middle of the night my ex-wife cried and cried and complained and refused to help. So I took care of the puppy and trained it myself.
I thought you got a v-sec...
I did. My daughter was 9 at the time. She'll be 37 in a few weeks.
You may not have noticed, but I'm probably a bit older than you.
This is going to sound cynical. But stay with me for a moment...
How much does it really matter who you partner with? Granted, you want someone who can support themselves, someone who is reliable and respectful for the most part; you want someone you have fun with.
But beyond that, must they be your "soul mate?"
Think of it this way: You probably pared down much of what you owned in an effort to live simply. You probably cut out distractions, time wasters, toxic "friendships," and so on. You likely tossed out some "luxuries" too. But you are just as happy in life without all the former "must-haves."
Maybe finding a partner is the same way. You just pick someone you like and who is reasonably enjoyable to be around.
Sometimes wanting everything leaves you with nothing.
This was my situation. I wanted it all and, for a while, lost what I did have and had nothing.
I also think there is a lot of false bravado in America. The whole set of refrains like: "I don't even need a man!" or "I am single and lovin' it!" or "I am independent!"
Many women I went on dates would say this stuff to me and it was very off-putting. Like: "Why are we on a date then? And why do you have 4 dating profiles, one for each dating site you're on?"
I just prefer to be candid: "I am happier and experience more joy in a long term relationship. I 'need' a woman in my life to be happy and joyful at that level."
Maybe since I am candid about this I am also vulnerable. But I am okay with that. I am a big boy and can take my bruises.
Does any of this rambling make sense? haha
I don't really believe in soulmates, but I definitely have to like them a lot to make it worth my time. I think of relationships like a tripod:
I need/want 3 things: friendship, romance/sex/physical stuff, and lifestyle compatibility.
Obviously varying degrees of those depending on the person. But if one aspect is missing or mostly absent it all falls apart. I'll wait until I find someone compatible in all three areas.
Ultralight
8-14-15, 4:01pm
I did. My daughter was 9 at the time. She'll be 37 in a few weeks.
You may not have noticed, but I'm probably a bit older than you.
Point taken. haha
freshstart
8-14-15, 4:04pm
they're also the greatest joy a person can experience. .
Agreed, my kids happen to be at an unpleasant age, probably my least favorite stage yet. But no matter how bad it ever becomes, there is nothing they could ever do that would not make them the best thing that happened to me.
That being said, sometimes the children of the person you are dating are not anywhere near the best thing to happen to you. You can read books up the wazoo to try to prepare to become a step mother, you can make every effort to make group family times the best they can be but if your partner is unable to see glaring issues, it can be one giant strike against continuing the relationship. Ex-BF had a son my son's age. Complete opposites, my son hates sports, writes and plays music all day, has an artsy/alt group of very good friends but he had not found those types of kids yet when he was younger. Ex's kid extremely athletic, horribly misbehaved, would say horrible things to his dad, bullied my son to the point of violence, sarcastic and just plain mean. My ex would never, not once call him on his behavior despite me trying to talk about what was a very bad dynamic. One time, he ripped the heads and legs off of every single Barbie my DD had and did obscene things on them with markers. She was heartbroken and crying, ex told his son, "stop it." Too little, way too late. His son punched mine and called him a "faggot", ex did nothing, we left and told BF, "DONE, my son never has to see yours ever again and I never want to see you again." I did see him again but to me the relationship was done and I needed to pull the plug on life support. We had pledged to not co-habitate until the kids were launched, but that doesn't really matter because kids come home a lot. The kids would see each other and I was done with that. Even if you try to be the best pre-step mother, it's just like picking a husband, if you have completely different parenting styles, you are in for rough waters. And unlike with the father of my children, I did not bring up parenting styles early enough because I was certain that he would be a good dad and it didn't really matter because we would not be truly parenting each other's kids. I was very, very wrong.
Ultralight
8-14-15, 4:10pm
Agreed, my kids happen to be at an unpleasant age, probably my least favorite stage yet. But no matter how bad it ever becomes, there is nothing they could ever do that would not make them the best thing that happened to me.
That being said, sometimes the children of the person you are dating are not anywhere near the best thing to happen to you. You can read books up the wazoo to try to prepare to become a step mother, you can make every effort to make group family times the best they can be but if your partner is unable to see glaring issues, it can be one giant strike against continuing the relationship. Ex-BF had a son my son's age. Complete opposites, my son hates sports, writes and plays music all day, has an artsy/alt group of very good friends but he had not found those types of kids yet when he was younger. Ex's kid extremely athletic, horribly misbehaved, would say horrible things to his dad, bullied my son to the point of violence, sarcastic and just plain mean. My ex would never, not once call him on his behavior despite me trying to talk about what was a very bad dynamic. One time, he ripped the heads and legs off of every single Barbie my DD had and did obscene things on them with markers. She was heartbroken and crying, ex told his son, "stop it." Too little, way too late. His son punched mine and called him a "faggot", ex did nothing, we left and told BF, "DONE, my son never has to see yours ever again and I never want to see you again." I did see him again but to me the relationship was done and I needed to pull the plug on life support. We had pledged to not co-habitate until the kids were launched, but that doesn't really matter because kids come home a lot. The kids would see each other and I was done with that. Even if you try to be the best pre-step mother, it's just like picking a husband, if you have completely different parenting styles, you are in for rough waters. And unlike with the father of my children, I did not bring up parenting styles early enough because I was certain that he would be a good dad and it didn't really matter because we would not be truly parenting each other's kids. I was very, very wrong.
Dating someone with a pre-fam just sounds like a nightmare. :(
Besides, I don't have enough money to support someone's kids. Though I already do this through my tax dollars.
But... not to be contrary... I have had friends look me straight in the face and say: "If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have had kids." I have also just been casually talking to guys who are fathers. When they ask if I have kids and I say "no" there have been some, a fair percentage, who say: "You were smart, man. Stay that way. It is too late for me."
But... not to be contrary... I have had friends look me straight in the face and say: "If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have had kids." I have also just been casually talking to guys who are fathers. When they ask if I have kids and I say "no" there have been some, a fair percentage, who say: "You were smart, man. Stay that way. It is too late for me."
Not to be contrary, but you run with an obnoxious crowd. It's one thing to not want to have kids, it's something entirely different to regret the ones you have. The "friends" you describe don't deserve kids, or better yet, their kids deserve better parents.
freshstart
8-14-15, 4:19pm
I won't lie, there are days I reconsider my choice. Everybody retreat and eventually the bad stuff rolls on by.
Just before I got pregnant, I told my parents we were thinking about children but we were in no hurry, if it happened, great, if it didn't, we'd deal. My mom really wanted grandkids and I said to her, "will you be ok if I change my mind and we stick to dogs?" I give her major credit, she said, "of course". I stopped the pill and rolled the dice, thinking it could be a year before anything happened. I wasn't even off the pill a whole month and I was pregnant! I totally get the ambivalence, but for me, that ended once I truly grasped Adam was in there.
freshstart
8-14-15, 4:22pm
It's one thing to not want to have kids, it's something entirely different to regret the ones you have. The "friends" you describe don't deserve kids.
we all complain about our kids to our friends, or at least mine do, but none of us has ever said, "you were smart, man. Stay that way. It is too late for me." that's a pretty intense, harsh comment about your own child
This is going to sound cynical. But stay with me for a moment...
How much does it really matter who you partner with? Granted, you want someone who can support themselves, someone who is reliable and respectful for the most part; you want someone you have fun with.
But beyond that, must they be your "soul mate?"
I don't believe that there is just one "soul mate" for each person out there looking. I definitely believe there are people with whose souls yours resonates much more than other people. It's a magic that's hard to explain. But I know it when I feel it.
That said, a successful long-term relationship has to entail more than reliability, respect, and fun times together. It's not always going to be fun and games, and that's when you find out who a person really is. I was in long-ish relationships with a few women who could show up on time and pay their bills, who respected me and vice versa, and with whom I shared several interests. But marrying any of them probably would not have worked out well, for various reasons I won't go into here.
Think of it this way: You probably pared down much of what you owned in an effort to live simply. You probably cut out distractions, time wasters, toxic "friendships," and so on. You likely tossed out some "luxuries" too. But you are just as happy in life without all the former "must-haves."
Maybe finding a partner is the same way. You just pick someone you like and who is reasonably enjoyable to be around.
Sometimes wanting everything leaves you with nothing.
Wanting everything 99.99999999% of the time will leave you with nothing. There's always some compromise/reprioritization that comes with any relationship worth committing to (IMHO).
Besides, it's entirely possible that the one you pick comes with his/her own distractions, time wasters, toxic friends (or family), and so on. Those are not so easy to dump, especially if he/she does not see things completely your way.
And, at least for me, living simply does not necessarily mean living minimally. There are ways I want to spend my found time/energy/money -- such as my primary romantic relationship. For that reason alone, just picking the first halfways-decent woman to come along was not a time-efficient option for me.
Ultralight
8-14-15, 4:27pm
Not to be contrary, but you run with an obnoxious crowd. It's one thing to not want to have kids, it's something entirely different to regret the ones you have. The "friends" you describe don't deserve kids, or better yet, their kids deserve better parents.
I agree with you, mostly. My crowd is not all obnoxious. Even the ones in my crowd that are obnonxious are not always so. But yeah, I think that all kids deserve parents who want them.
I get a little shocked each times someone tells me this sort of thing.
I think that it can be beneficial for people to express their ambivalence about having kids, as it may remind others who are pre-kid to really think about their choices. Too many people have kids just because it's the "normal thing to do" or because they can't be bothered to actively prevent pregnancy, often to the detriment of the children involved. Raising children is such an important thing and it should be given the serious consideration it deserves.
Dating someone with a pre-fam just sounds like a nightmare. :(
Besides, I don't have enough money to support someone's kids. Though I already do this through my tax dollars.
But... not to be contrary... I have had friends look me straight in the face and say: "If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have had kids." I have also just been casually talking to guys who are fathers. When they ask if I have kids and I say "no" there have been some, a fair percentage, who say: "You were smart, man. Stay that way. It is too late for me."
There was a time -- a long time -- when one's children served as the employees for the company business (farm, store, etc.) and as the old-age plan (live with whichever daughter was closest) -- at least the children who survived prevalent childhood diseases. More was better. I think those days are pretty much gone. We joke about moving in with DD in our dotage, but DW and I know it's not a situation either party would like.
When I was "dating again" at 45-50 years of age, I figured the likelihood of having children with a woman I married was close to zero, either for biological reasons or because mom had done her 20-25 years of child-rearing and was ready for the next stage of her life. As things are turning out, I'm serving as more of a dad for DW's daughter than her own bio-dad, who has been unreliable and (frankly) a bigot in a situation in which that point of view is ill-suited (long story).
Anyway, my point is that it doesn't take a lot of knowledge or skill to be a father, but it takes a fair amount of engagement and energy to be a dad. I suspect there are many fathers out there who found it was a lot of work to be a dad and that they just weren't up for it, so they would have saved themselves -- and their wives and even their kids -- the trouble if only someone could give them the "mulligan". Ditto for moms -- this is not a male-only issue. I think the parents who engaged are happy they had kids. I stand in awe of the ones who made raising kids a huge part of their lives -- it's quite a responsibility. The ones who don't want to do it? Well, maybe we're better off letting them say 'no' (before the fact) and not assuming that progeny should be the outcome of every marriage early in life.
ApatheticNoMore
8-14-15, 4:50pm
I think that it can be beneficial for people to express their ambivalence about having kids, as it may remind others who are pre-kid to really think about their choices. Too many people have kids just because it's the "normal thing to do" or because they can't be bothered to actively prevent pregnancy, often to the detriment of the children involved. Raising children is such an important thing and it should be given the serious consideration it deserves.
If it's just casual conversation some people are actually of the affirm people's choices type. "I don't have kids" "smart" "I'm single" "smart". At least it makes more sense than trying to change people's choices, which is generally seen as a "one up" maneuver and may very well be in motivation. To get what people really think ... is not easy. I mean I never got my dad may actually have been proud of having kids and expressed it around his office, till I heard it at his funeral ... we always seemed such an inconvenience.
Not to be contrary, but you run with an obnoxious crowd. It's one thing to not want to have kids, it's something entirely different to regret the ones you have. The "friends" you describe don't deserve kids, or better yet, their kids deserve better parents.
i have had a rough time with my ex-husband overall, and he was more on the no-kids side but didn't really do anything or say that clearly. So we had 3 kids and much later he said that he hadn't known that he wanted them until they were born and thank you to me for being on the pro-kid side of things. so honestly he has some serious personal issues and was never a great primary parent, but he is happy they are here and does his best. when i think about parents who have abandoned kids, treated them horribly, or said straight up they don't want them i just feel so bad for that child.
i have been through the last 10 years of mental health appointment, school refusals, regular contact with the school and personal counselors, recently had a kid go through re-hab and one who is so checked out ADD i rarely get her to return a phone call. So yeah, i look at old photos and think about where we may be going that is better, but i didn't say that even in the worst of it.
iris lilies
8-14-15, 6:36pm
When my ex and I got a puppy and it required frequent training, walks, and to be taken out in the middle of the night my ex-wife cried and cried and complained and refused to help. So I took care of the puppy and trained it myself.
im not very nurturing and will show only slightly more interest in your 8 week-old puppy than in your 8 week old baby. But let them grow up a bit and I'm more interested.i think that 6 month old puppies are cute and fun, assuming they are somewhat calm. I think that two year old children are a scream ,but I don't want to be around them for more than 20 minutes.
dogs, I love my squished faced Bulldogs, but love them as adult dogs.
kittens are the exception, once they get past 4 weeks they are endlessly fascinating to me 24/7.
I disagree that having children is the greatest joy a person can experience.
I also disagree. It may be true for some people or perhaps even many people, but certainly not universal by any means. Greatest joys vary based on the individual person.
iris lilies, again we agree. Dont want to hold the baby and I have limited interest in hearing endless stories. Now once they can talk and respond, it is slightly better.
Kittens, now there is cuteness.
I am so glad we decided not to have any kids. None of the adults in our family had children. Never had them, never regreted the decision. May be selfish but life is a lot of fun.
I am so glad we decided not to have any kids. None of the adults in our family had children. Never had them, never regreted the decision. May be selfish but life is a lot of fun.
I don't see the decision to not have kids as being selfish at all. Our planet is over-populated and humans are massively destructive as a whole. If you don't want kids, then the least selfish choice is to not have them.
Ultralight
8-14-15, 11:06pm
I don't see the decision to not have kids as being selfish at all. Our planet is over-populated and humans are massively destructive as a whole. If you don't want kids, then the least selfish choice is to not have them.
Like your style!!!
freshstart
8-15-15, 1:36am
the decision to not have children is not selfish by any stretch of the imagination. On this overpopulated planet, it would be great if more people really contemplated what they want vs what they think they want because society, friends and family push it
thunderseed
8-15-15, 2:43am
Well, personally I wouldn't even bother going out on dates with anyone that I wasn't physically interested in. I don't understand how that's more you than anything, you can't force yourself to be into something when you just aren't.
I guess there is no harm in dating for no reason, but typically most people are dating to actually find someone long term and I guess if you already have a suspicion that you are not interested in them, it's not really fair for them to lead them on, and also I don't think it's really fair to yourself to expect that you should be into them when you know you are not.
I think it's pretty simple actually, you need to have a good understanding of what you are looking for in a relationship in order to find it. For example for me, compatibility is really important and I know exactly what kind of person I am compatible with.
I don't think you need to settle for any less than what you truly want. From your post I got the sense that you are just settling, instead of being truly passionate and sure about it.
freshstart
8-15-15, 2:20pm
I don't know how old Ultralight is, but it doesn't matter. I think when you are quite young, you do date "for no reason", there are reasons, they just aren't the ones someone has when a bit older, ready to find a life partner, marry, etc. And that makes sense to me, as my son gets older, I hope he's not looking to settle down at 22 but of course I want him to date. Some people may date and have relationships for years "for no reason", in that marriage/kids not the goal. That's fine and their reasons are no less valid than anyone else's. And then there is the bit older, divorced demographic, they date a lot and many have no plan to marry again. While some cannot wait to jump back into married life. And I find that fine, as well. If you are upfront that you are not planning on family and kids, then what is the problem with that?
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