View Full Version : Mass exodus out of Syria.........
Wow.....this is awful. I feel bad for the countries they are trying to enter, and for them, who've been forced to leave their homeland.
What to do? The masses of these people will present such problems for the countries they are trying to enter. It will change their culture forever and also lower the quality of life for it's present citizens.
What should one do?
I don't blame the Hungarians for putting up that wall.
What an absolute mess this is. I guess there's been some talk of wanting the U.S. to accept our share of them.
What's the solution? I know the U.S. and some other countries are trying to get rid of the cause of this exodus (ISIS, and other groups)......but it doesn't seem to be working. Everything is being destroyed.
What can/should be done, in your opinion? Should we try to become less humane and just let them struggle/die? At what point is being humane causing too many problems for people who are already citizens of a country? I haven't a clue how this should be handled. I just hope they don't send them here.......as we have an immigrant problem here already.
What an absolute humanitarian mess. And I honestly can't blame the european countries for not wanting to accept them.
If I were a refugee I would hope some country would accept me. I think we should do the same.
I agree, Tammy. I believe Angela Merkel has stepped up, to a degree. She's allowing refugees into Germany wherever they initially land. This situation is horribly sad.
My opinion, we need better immigration policy. More people allowed in, but in a controlled manner. We have the space and we have the social flexibility, but it's also understandable that citizens of the US, like citizens everywhere, want a sense of order and fairness to the process.
I don't understand why we don't have a guest worker program. Or maybe we do, but it's just for Microsoft employees and the like. Most of our immigrants, documented or not, are working.
I don't understand why we don't have a guest worker program. Or maybe we do, but it's just for Microsoft employees and the like. Most of our immigrants, documented or not, are working.
That would make sense to me. a sort of larger version of H1B would seem easy enough to implement.
Most countries (Canada has been mentioned here more than once) seem to have much more practical systems for admitting new immigrants based on what they can contribute in terms of skills or capital, as well as a certain reasonable number of slots for different categories of refugee.
If we have the ability to track down people without health insurance, certainly we have the means to identify people without a valid social security number and prevent people here in violation of our laws from working.
And I honestly can't blame the european countries for not wanting to accept them.
Them....
What's wrong with Syrians?
http://www.uh.edu/engines/newcolossus.jpg
I have nothing against the Syrians who are fleeing........ but massive amounts of anyone wanting to go to other countries presents a problem. Shall we send them to your island bae? I'm just wanting a discussion on how to handle it.
ApatheticNoMore
8-31-15, 2:52pm
We have plenty of space in theory if they were evenly spaced out over the U.S. landmass. In reality they'll all settle in the same overcrowded urban areas that everyone else wants to live in (ha which not only don't have the infrastructure for ever increasing populations, but which don't even have any water in some cases ...).
With the Syrians much is probably due to U.S. foreign policy that has created never ending disasters in the middle east including the rise of ISIS, so you could say we are to blame for the situation to begin with (but if you are more honest our stupid warmongering elite are the ones primarily to blame.).
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27373131
We must be careful though--we might end up with some really dangerous characters. Like Paula Abdul, Jerry Seinfeld, or Steve Jobs (all of Syrian descent).
Ultralight
8-31-15, 3:05pm
Paula Abdul used to be my celebrity crush. Though now it is Kelly Ripa (not Syrian). haha
Shall we send them to your island bae? I'm just wanting a discussion on how to handle it.
Any Syrian immigrant who could contribute to the community here would be quite welcome I suspect. We haven't a lot of housing, and it's expensive and difficult to live here, but most people are quite friendly and accepting of those who can make a go of it.
Can I put an order in for a couple of schoolteachers, a Physician Assistant, a water system operator or two, 4-5 structural firefighters/EMTs, and a director-level person to run a music-oriented non-profit? And maybe 2-3 electrical linemen/women?
I think some of you are being unfair.
When did accusations of racism become the default position for anyone short of an argument?
...
With the Syrians much is probably due to U.S. foreign policy that has created never ending disasters in the middle east including the rise of ISIS, so you could say we are to blame for the situation to begin with (but if you are more honest our stupid warmongering elite are the ones primarily to blame.).
This bears repeating.
I think some of you are being unfair.
When did accusations of racism become the default position for anyone short of an argument?
I think I agree with this, but I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. But I agree if you're saying that I haven't explained myself well, but some people are assuming I'm being racist. Am I correct?
It has NOTHING to do with their ethnicity. I would be wondering/concerned about this if it were ANYONE from ANY country doing the mass exodus.
How horrendous it must be to be totally uprooted from your home/neighborhood/country/profession/etc., etc.....and travel dangerously for days/weeks to find a safe place. BUT......I'm also thinking of the people who are receiving them (or not).
I wanted a discussion of things, and possible ideas of solutions.......not bringing up "Give me your tired, your poor, your homeless....." or implying that I don't like Syrians. Sheesh.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27373131
Bae......to bring up things long ago is sort of irrelevant. The world is a totally different place now.
Maybe all countries against ISIS and their like might agree to take in a proportional amount of the refugees so that no single country needs to bear the brunt of a severe and sudden upsurge of population.
I think I agree with this, but I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. But I agree if you're saying that I haven't explained myself well, but some people are assuming I'm being racist. Am I correct?
Yes. You are not a racist. You simply started a discussion about one of the many humanitarian crises in the world. Somehow this led to Nazi-invoking nonsense on the order of Hillary's boxcar remark.
Bae......to bring up things long ago is sort of irrelevant.
I disagree. It's quite to the point. "Never again".
The world is a totally different place now.
I see little evidence that mankind has abandoned ethnic cleansing, religious cleansing, and outright genocide since WWII. The only thing different is perhaps we can see it in real time these days.
Maybe all countries against ISIS and their like might agree to take in a proportional amount of the refugees so that no single country needs to bear the brunt of a severe and sudden upsurge of population.
From what I have been reading, it is not ISIS as much as the horrors of Assad that are killing so many and driving the refugee situation. ISIS is getting its recruits after the horrors experienced from Assad and his soldiers. Just reviewing the assumptions that are being expressed.
Bae......to bring up things long ago is sort of irrelevant. The world is a totally different place now.
I actually thought it was very relevant and an eerily similar situation that made the point that a lot of things don't really ever change.
I'm curious what it is about the world that you think is so different today.
What I mean is not about not wanting a certain ethnicity to come here..........it is asking about HOW to deal with it.
And what I meant about it being a different world is that the ship is getting full, so to speak..........many countries have so many poor already.....including the U.S. and the European countries that all these people want to go to.
The U.S. has a lot of problems. Bringing in thousands and thousands more people would cause a lot more problems. And other countries might be struggling to stay afloat, with the citizens they already have.
Mostly what I was referring to is that "Bring us your poor, your hungry, etc." statement. We have to think about population, food, jobs, etc., etc., etc. In the early 1900's......we were asking everyone to come here. We're a little bit fuller now, aren't we?
Sure, it would be hunky dory, if every country could always let in as many people as wanted to come in.........but many places are struggling as it is.
The conversation I was wanting to have is about solutions. Personally, if we could obliterate the groups that are causing all this, these people could maybe some day go home. But I'm not sure that's going to happen. I'm sure they loved their homeland at some point....but there's probably nothing left of it.
The idea was suggested that all countries share in taking in an equal amount of refugees. How does everyone feel about that?
How do people feel about Hungary putting up a huge fence? What are some options for those countries where all these people are fleeing to?
I think trying to keep to the "Bring us your tired, hungary, etc." might be a noble concept, but it's unreasonable in today's environment.
And bae.......sure, you want "useful" people. As you stated
"Can I put an order in for a couple of schoolteachers, a Physician Assistant, a water system operator or two, 4-5 structural firefighters/EMTs, and a director-level person to run a music-oriented non-profit? And maybe 2-3 electrical linemen/women?"
Isn't that sort of naive, as to who would show up? You don't get to hand-pick them. How about a few thousand who have no real skills for this culture?.......at least not in the near future......and who don't speak English.
I really think this is a catastrophe for both the people fleeing.........and for the countries they're fleeing to.
Can we have a discussion about it without trying to make me the bad guy?
iris lilies
8-31-15, 7:11pm
We have plenty of space in theory if they were evenly spaced out over the U.S. landmass. In reality they'll all settle in the same overcrowded urban areas that everyone else wants to live in (ha which not only don't have the infrastructure for ever increasing populations, but which don't even have any water in some cases ...).
What was cool about the immigrant Bosnians in our area is that they settled here in our urban core and spruced up decaying buildings and blocks. Umm, not everyone wants to live here, many flee to the suburbs. Super hard workers they are, and with building skills. They are Muslims with a European sensibility. They are a very interesting population who have done well for themselves in St. Louis and have convinced most reasonable people that their minaret isn't really that big of a threat.
Just watched an old documentary about the history of NYC. Per day they were taking in over 12,000 immigrants from Europe and the tides varied from tradespeople to farmers without skills. At the time, one of the largest migrations of people from one continent to another.
Feelings of the existing population depended on the current state of the NYC economy and the skills of the immigrants. Note that the immigrants took jobs from those in the lower skilled ranks because they would take less pay. This really hurt the lowest economic level of existing workers. A lot of resentment and violence took place from time to time.
Whether countries accept immigrants, it is the immigrants who often want to live in a particular place. This might be due to the value they place on language, or family, or level of benefits available. There are a huge number who want to only live in the UK. Consider the problem of integration here if many were sent to small rural communities or just distributed among the states.
Williamsmith
8-31-15, 9:39pm
If it wasn't for the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans we'd be in the same fix. I trust someone has already planned on how to assimilate refugees into our society.....you know the way we have so admirably handled the illegal immigration problem. The earth ain't gettin any bigger.
We assimilated Cuban and Vietnamese refugees, among others, without great disruption or strife. And they rather quickly became contributing members of society. Just like those who came before them have done. We are all immigrants, after all.
We have a big population of Burmese. They start out with nothing and thru cooperation and a lot of hard work, become part of the bigger community.
flowerseverywhere
9-2-15, 8:38am
This is history repeating itself. Mao Ze Dung, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein..the list goes on and on. These people go through unspeakable horrors. It is unimaginable how evil man can be towards others. You can find people being persecuted all over Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Russia. It is hard for us to understand as we sit in our Lazy Boys and watch our big screen TV's trying to cut down on our automobile use. We have a giant piece of the pie in the U.S. And most of Europe. Sometimes people's poor me stories are almost laughable as we declutter our numerous possessions, or try to cut down our caloric intake or cut down to one car. These people are starving to death, their children are not being educated, they risk political persecution at every turn. Many people have no electricity around the world, no access to clean water, no medical care. Can you imagine taking your children and walking for miles with what you can carry, setting off on a crowded ship or riding atop a train or bus clinging for dear life because you are so desperate?
The world is becoming a powder keg, and holding our riches closer to our chest will not diffuse it. I see no other way than for every nation to help with immigrants, to share our great wealth. Perhaps WWIII will take place.
It IS all pretty crazy flowerseverywhere. :(
iris lilies
9-2-15, 10:44am
If I were a refugee I would hope some country would accept me. I think we should do the same.
The United States has a special refugee immigration program, always has. The President determines how many people come in through this program each year.
how many do you think the u.s. can easily absorb? How many can we absorb with some pain? How many before I,ve got people living in my garage, using our kitchen and bathroom?
it's not a matter of do we accept refugee immigrants, it's a matter of how many. The devil is nearly always in the details.
This is history repeating itself. Mao Ze Dung, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein..the list goes on and on. These people go through unspeakable horrors. It is unimaginable how evil man can be towards others. You can find people being persecuted all over Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Russia. It is hard for us to understand as we sit in our Lazy Boys and watch our big screen TV's trying to cut down on our automobile use. We have a giant piece of the pie in the U.S. And most of Europe. Sometimes people's poor me stories are almost laughable as we declutter our numerous possessions, or try to cut down our caloric intake or cut down to one car. These people are starving to death, their children are not being educated, they risk political persecution at every turn. Many people have no electricity around the world, no access to clean water, no medical care. Can you imagine taking your children and walking for miles with what you can carry, setting off on a crowded ship or riding atop a train or bus clinging for dear life because you are so desperate? The world is becoming a powder keg, and holding our riches closer to our chest will not diffuse it. I see no other way than for every nation to help with immigrants, to share our great wealth. Perhaps WWIII will take place.
Flowers, I've been thinking about what you said, and it can also be seen a different way........ While we're sitting in our recliners, safely in our country, with plenty of food, etc., etc........we can't really say how we would react if thousands of refugees suddenly poured into our country all at once. I feel really bad for Hungary.....and all the other places.......that have had to shut down some transportation because too many refugees are there to deal with and they are totally overwhelmed. We have no concept what it would be like to be "taken over" by masses of refugees, so we have the luxury of saying/thinking we should just take care of them all.
Maybe my feelings of concern come from needing a lot of space personally. The areas close to here have in a very short time turned into cities......and I am sensing a certain way of life being eaten up by the masses. If one lives in the middle of a city or suburb, it might feel like things aren't changing that much.........but that's because you're insulated. So if I have concerns with thousands of refugees streaming into a country/locale, it's because I'm really sensitive to "growth".
This is a crisis that doesn't seem to be really coming to the forefront of global concerns yet.....but it will.
One thing I've noticed on the news, when they show these masses of people walking, looking for a new life.....they look decent, well-fed. How can they have made that trek and look so good?
And maybe because we've had it so good for so long, we've lost sight of the natural course of things........like not everybody survives. We think absolutely everyone can and must be saved........which I believe will get us into trouble.
It's really hard to know what to do. Are we "humane" because we've had it so easy or never have been tested? Is trying to save everyone all the time something we should really be doing? That might sound heartless.........but I think it's going to bring down the quality of life for everyone.
I wish the order could be restored in their native countries, and we could help them rebuild somewhat........but trying to assimilate thousands of them seems fairly impossible, without causing major changes to the prior citizens of the countries.
For me, working with the poorest people in Phoenix, the logic of letting nature take its course is so cold hearted. Should we let our homeless die of heatstroke in the streets? Because we don't want them in our neighborhood? The refugee situation is the same thing only on a global level.
It's not easy and resources are not endless. I get that. But the refugees are people just like us. It could happen to us someday. Would we want nature to take its course as we starve outside of a fence? With people eating great meals on the other side?
I fear that this is only the beginning as climate change will precipitate water wars in the future.
Tammy......I don't know what the answer is. :(
I think when people say things like: "let nature take its course" what they really mean is "turn the oven all the way up, close the door, and let it clean itself."
And that is kinda messed up!
flowerseverywhere
9-2-15, 2:46pm
Tammy......I don't know what the answer is. :(
the first answer is not to label someone racist because they question what are we going to do about all these immigrants like you have. I know I don't have the answers but I cannot imagine what these people are going through. The dialogue needs to be opened up in all countries. In the U.S. We have many people who go through the proper channels to try to legally get into this country. We have many who come in to work and overstay. We have baby birth tourism where women come to have anchor babies so that is their foot in the door. We have those that sneak in. Each problem needs to be addressed. As as much as people think Trump is a buffoon, he has opened up the dialogue about what we should do about our own immigration crisis from the south. Because we need to talk about it. Politicians saying we need to update our immigration policy isn't cutting it. Tell us what you plan to do.
Europe is in the midst of discussions about how to handle this. Should countries build fences and shoot people who try to cross? Should the borders open up and allow everyone who wants to to go to the destination of their choice? Or is there a solution in the middle? How do you pick who comes through the gate?
Tammy, I think you are right that we have only seen the beginning. The Internet is slowly showing people alternatives to what they have accepted as their life lot as they realize what is out there. Water wars, fleeing political strife, famine etc. all will contribute to this huge crisis.
flowerseverywhere
9-2-15, 2:47pm
I think when people say things like: "let nature take its course" what they really mean is "turn the oven all the way up, close the door, and let it clean itself."
And that is kinda messed up!
so what would you do?
It could happen to us someday.
That is the thought that keeps occurring to me as time goes by.
so what would you do?
Well, I really can't do anything for these folks coming out of Syria. If some refugees come to my neighborhood though, I will invite them to go fishing with me. I'll also help them learn English.
One of the problems of our modern age is that we are instantly aware of the problems of the entire globe. Helping a refugee in my own city is something I can do. Being powerless to help yet aware of the tragedy puts us in a predicament we have not evolved to solve.
One of the problems of our modern age is that we are instantly aware of the problems of the entire globe. Helping a refugee in my own city is something I can do. Being powerless to help yet aware of the tragedy puts us in a predicament we have not evolved to solve.
This is insightful.
I really appreciate those of you who can articulate things better than I am able to. Flowerseverywhere........you bring up really good points!
Ultraliteangler........your reference to what I said being like putting Jews in ovens was pretty awful. I don't know what to do about this. I really think it will take a global cooperation.
Funny how the U.S. isn't getting involved yet, that I know of.
And I agree what flowerseverywhere said about Trump. I'm really tired of people in government not accomplishing anything. I find him pretty offensive at times, but we already have a big immigration problem that nobody in government wants to address.
And I DO feel like there are times when we have to say no to some people, or projects. I mean how much thinner can we be stretched?
Yes, I feel really bad for the people who are fleeing. But I'm also sad for the loss of all rich, peaceful, interesting cultures. I know some of you think everyone can get along with everyone, but I don't think that concept is necessarily working out in this world now. Everything is getting diluted and changed.
One of the problems of our modern age is that we are instantly aware of the problems of the entire globe. Helping a refugee in my own city is something I can do. Being powerless to help yet aware of the tragedy puts us in a predicament we have not evolved to solve.
Yes, it's hard to handle. We have to just be helpful in some small way where we live and hope that that's enough.
I really appreciate those of you who can articulate things better than I am able to. Flowerseverywhere........you bring up really good points!
Ultraliteangler........your reference to what I said being like putting Jews in ovens was pretty awful. I don't know what to do about this. I really think it will take a global cooperation.
Funny how the U.S. isn't getting involved yet, that I know of.
And I agree what flowerseverywhere said about Trump. I'm really tired of people in government not accomplishing anything. I find him pretty offensive at times, but we already have a big immigration problem that nobody in government wants to address.
And I DO feel like there are times when we have to say no to some people, or projects. I mean how much thinner can we be stretched?
Yes, I feel really bad for the people who are fleeing. But I'm also sad for the loss of all rich, peaceful, interesting cultures. I know some of you think everyone can get along with everyone, but I don't think that concept is necessarily working out in this world now. Everything is getting diluted and changed.
Your crime is being a realist who talks about practical solutions in an imperfect world. Such people will always earn the scorn of the smugly self-righteous.
Your crime is being a realist who talks about practical solutions in an imperfect world. Such people will always earn the scorn of the smugly self-righteous.
I made no reference to the Jewish people.
I really appreciate those of you who can articulate things better than I am able to. Flowerseverywhere........you bring up really good points!
Ultraliteangler........your reference to what I said being like putting Jews in ovens was pretty awful. I don't know what to do about this. I really think it will take a global cooperation.
Funny how the U.S. isn't getting involved yet, that I know of.
And I agree what flowerseverywhere said about Trump. I'm really tired of people in government not accomplishing anything. I find him pretty offensive at times, but we already have a big immigration problem that nobody in government wants to address.
And I DO feel like there are times when we have to say no to some people, or projects. I mean how much thinner can we be stretched?
Yes, I feel really bad for the people who are fleeing. But I'm also sad for the loss of all rich, peaceful, interesting cultures. I know some of you think everyone can get along with everyone, but I don't think that concept is necessarily working out in this world now. Everything is getting diluted and changed.
I made no reference to the Jewish people.
I thought that was what the "oven" comment was referring to.
flowerseverywhere
9-2-15, 9:30pm
Well, I really can't do anything for these folks coming out of Syria. If some refugees come to my neighborhood though, I will invite them to go fishing with me. I'll also help them learn English.
you are in luck. There is a program right in your area to help people learn English and improve reading.
http://www.columbusliteracy.org/about/literacy-facts/
One of the problems of our modern age is that we are instantly aware of the problems of the entire globe. Helping a refugee in my own city is something I can do. Being powerless to help yet aware of the tragedy puts us in a predicament we have not evolved to solve.
I don't know. Most of the media here are barely mentioning the refugee situation. Al Jazeera is probably the only one that really covers it. Thanks to Rachel Maddow, I learned last night that the people of Europe, in general, are demonstrating for asylum. This really is a tragedy.
Most of the media here are barely mentioning the refugee situation.
I just checked the sites for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and CNN. They all feature it prominently.
I've noticed an uptick in coverage since Aylan Kurdi's picture was published. Europe is hardly suffering from overpopulation; I should think they would welcome prospective workers and taxpayers.
I don't know how many of these refugees are Catholics--I would imagine a significant number.
That said, I am amazed that there hasn't been a sustained revolt in the Middle East. It's past time to get rid of the Old Guard there.
Teacher Terry
9-3-15, 1:36pm
Language is going to be a huge barrier for refugees if they were split among the European nations. For instance in Poland 98% of the country is Catholic & very few people speak English. In addition, Polish is one of the hardest languages to learn & a poor country. So many issues & I feel so sorry for these people. Also what happens in the US is even if immigrants are educated we often do not recognize their degrees. Colleges actually have lists of which colleges in which countries are recognized here or if only a part of their degree is recognized. For instance I know someone that has a BA from Poland but we will only recognize 2 years of that so she can't work here as a French teacher although she speaks 5 languages fluently. I knew someone from greece however that had her entire BA recognized because she went to a prestigious college.
To be honest, I find it curious that so many people (not necessarily here, but on the news) are finding Hungarian officials to be so inhumane and cruel. Hungary isn't a wealthy nation. I think they are doing what they need to do to stay afloat. How would you feel if a few hundred thousand people flooded into your not-so-wealthy area? I find it very unfortunate that, at least the media, they are making Hungary sound horrible for how they're handling things.
Like I said earlier, it's very easy for people who are sitting comfortably in their life-situations, to think how things are being handled elsewhere, is unacceptable.
I think Hungary is doing the best it can.
IshbelRobertson
9-10-15, 11:23am
http://home.bt.com/news/world-news/hungarian-camerawoman-fired-after-tripping-fleeing-migrants-11364002694103
Hungary has disgraced itself before the world. I just read the headline in passing about the camerawoman, so didn't realize her actions were purposeful. Words can't express the contempt I feel for her kind.
Ultralight
9-10-15, 11:34am
I've noticed an uptick in coverage since Aylan Kurdi's picture was published. Europe is hardly suffering from overpopulation; I should think they would welcome prospective workers and taxpayers.
I don't know how many of these refugees are Catholics--I would imagine a significant number.
That said, I am amazed that there hasn't been a sustained revolt in the Middle East. It's past time to get rid of the Old Guard there.
Revolt. Revolt. Revolt.
Make the French Revolution look like a Sunday at the park.
Make the French Revolution look like a Sunday at the park.
Because the French Revolution worked out so well for all concerned?
You appear to be at least partly getting your wish. Some of the creative talent in ISIS seem to be giving Robespierre some solid competition.
Jane.......she was a far right-wing news person. I don't think you should equate her with the government there. A lot of Hungarians were as appalled as the rest of us with her actions.
Teacher Terry
9-10-15, 1:25pm
Germany is willing to take almost a million people. My son & DIL are in Poland right now so will have to ask them how people over there are feeling. What a tough problem for Europe. Many people in Poland go to GErmany because there are lots of jobs there. I wonder how the refugees will impact that.
IshbelRobertson
9-10-15, 1:36pm
The refugees from Syria are more than worthy of our sympathy. However, the sheer volume of people is worrying.
Can we be sure that IS members are not gaining access to European countries for nefarious purposes? The entry of hundreds of thousands into mainland Europe is something that concerns many of us in the EU. The UK is not part of the Schengen Area, but we have huge numbers of adylum seekers on our doorstep in Calais. Refugees are supposed to register in the first EU country where they make landfall. None of them appear to want to settle in Greece, Italy or France. Their objective seems to be yo reach Northern European countries such as the UK, Scandinavia and Germany where there are jobs, houses and social benefits.
Canada and the U.S. could probably absorb a million each, if we had the will. Australia is offering to take a few--mostly Christians. I believe this is a test of our humanity.
Canada and the U.S. could probably absorb a million each, if we had the will. Australia is offering to take a few--mostly Christians. I believe this is a test of our humanity.
Housing is hard. We really need a better system for providing quick/cheap housing. Some kind of pre-fab tiny house thing. Of course then you think of slum cities, which doesn't bother me personally, but some people... It seems like that in our so-called developed countries, everything moves at a snail's pace and nobody has the capability to do anything quickly. In my city we've had a bunch of vacant housing not used for years due to bureaucracy (unused military housing stuff) and a bunch of people still homeless from floods a few years' back now. There are certainly organizations helping refugees, but they are small compared to the need, and the average homeowner isn't willing to take anyone in.
And then I think about all that health care and other requirements. Who is in a position to deal with this? The Red Cross? MSF? We have all these resources but we're not used to ever having to implement them within our own borders, on any large scale.
This kind of stuff really makes me wish I had a lot of money so I could be of more use.
Teacher Terry
9-11-15, 12:40pm
I missed my son's phone call but he sent me a short email. He said the issue is very complicated. Basically none of Europe but Germany wants these people & are mad at Germany. There are no jobs in many of the European countries. He also said that some are not refugees but just want to leave & so they throw away their passports & claim refugee status.
IshbelRobertson
9-11-15, 2:24pm
Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal (amongst other European nations) are having their own, awful financial crises. They cannot support their own citizens and feel resentful that they are expected to take these 'paperless' immigrants.
The refugees don't WANT to settle in the Southern and Eastern European countries, who have no jobs for their own citizens, which is why countries (like Germany and the UK, amongst others)are flooded with Poles, Romanians, Albanians etc, who have an absolute right to freedom of settlement anywhere in the EU. On top of those people, there are now hundreds of thousands of refugees in the mix, all of whom put our housing, medical and educational services under even greater strain.
In the UK, David Cameron has said we will take another 20K refugees (admittedly, over quite a few years)' BUT he is adamant that we will only allow Syrians from the established refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey, and those who have medical needs will take priority. It is expected that they will have complex and long term requirements.
Williamsmith
9-11-15, 3:08pm
Some day, and soon we are going to have to willingly accept that being a member of planet earth is more applicable to survival than being a member of a country. Events such as these notwithstanding. The U.S. Is at a fork in the road. The days of being 5% of the population using 25% of resources are being threatened.
Ultralight
9-11-15, 3:10pm
Some day, and soon we are going to have to willingly accept that being a member of planet earth is more applicable to survival than being a member of a country. Events such as these notwithstanding. The U.S. Is at a fork in the road. The days of being 5% of the population using 25% of resources are being threatened.
I took an environmental footprint test today and it said for every person in the world to live the way I do there would need to be 5.4 Earths.
Teacher Terry
9-11-15, 3:13pm
UL: that is scary considering how minimal you actually live. The rest of us are really hogging the resources.!thumbsup!
It's all pretty scary. I fear it will soon become not a matter of having "humanity" but of survival....for both the refugees and the citizens who are already in the countries where the refugees are fleeing.
We have been so protected for so long, I don't think any of us can even begin to imagine what might happen.
Teacher Terry
9-11-15, 4:05pm
Many of the smaller countries don't have jobs for their own let alone anyone else. Many go to Germany for jobs. I wonder realistically how many jobs are there in countries like Germany?
Ultralight
9-11-15, 4:13pm
Many of the smaller countries don't have jobs for their own let alone anyone else. Many go to Germany for jobs. I wonder realistically how many jobs are there in countries like Germany?
There are plenty of McJobs here in the US.
IshbelRobertson
9-11-15, 5:33pm
But... Will you accept them?
DH heard an interview on NPR about an official in Greece who is in charge of immigration for all of the EU. He was asked by the interviewer, if he appreciates how much immigration can change the culture of the country. I guess all he said was "Europe needs workers." Huh??
I get confused about this "jobs" issue. Are countries just trying to constantly have more and more and more, and are assuming they will need workers? Is there ever a point in society where people are happy with what they have and people have jobs based on what is there (and you don't count on people from other countries holding some of the jobs that some of the citizens just don't want?) I think the need for jobs many times comes from this notion that if you're not increasing/growing/developing........then something's wrong and it's not good for anyone. I just don't understand how many of the minds work...........
It's like houses being built before anyone even wants one.
flowerseverywhere
9-26-15, 11:12am
http://news.yahoo.com/finlands-no-good-disappointed-migrants-turn-back-152042061.html
CathyA, I thought you would find this article interesting. There are protests in many European countries right now including Finland, but it is hard to find mention in the news. Might have to do with political correctness.
Teacher Terry
9-26-15, 2:39pm
3 years ago Denmark let in a bunch of people & now only 13% are working. The rest are on social welfare. Many want to go to Germany because their social welfare is high & many are refusing to go to other countries. Since my son over there he is getting the news on what is actually happening. Also England let a bunch of Muslims in & they have formed their own neighborhoods, aren't trying to assimilate & attacking non-muslim woman that don't have their heads covered etc. I feel sorry for them but there are big problems for the countries that take them.
Packratona!
9-27-15, 1:38am
75% of the "refugees" are healthy, strong, military age men, not women or children. That is a very strange, unusual percentage which is a huge departure from the norms of populations of refugees. A significant percentage are not from Syria. The countries that are taking them are countries where the native population is dying out; their birth rates are below the level needed for replacement. Some can never recover which is why they are dying out. They import workers to support the aging population. If you study Islamic radical tactics, this invasion is part of the war plan. It is working quite well.
Interesting statistics, Packratona!. Where did you find them?
75% of the "refugees" are healthy, strong, military age men, not women or children.
Fear mongering.
So what? What if they are military age men? My local very liberal congresscritter is proposing the USA accept 100,000 Syrian refugees. Assume for the sake of argument that they are all hardened military men, ready to pounce on us....
They'd last about 10 seconds in any engagement against the US, especially inside the borders of the US. Heck, the state of Pennsylvania has about 700,000 deer hunters, ready to go....
Just more Know Nothing agit-prop.
Williamsmith
9-27-15, 3:39am
Are you really comfortable enabling your government to build a wall....maybe two walls with a moat around it and alligators in the middle....just to keep out others and so your life remains unchanged by what's going on in another country? Can you stay locked in your house while neighbors run from their burning house?
Got to look at these people as resources not terrorists.
I don't know if it's been mentioned, but many Syrians are Christians, and I suspect that a good percentage have skills, as it's usually those with some resources who leave first--those who see the handwriting on the wall--as they did in Ireland, Germany, and during the Second World War. Waves of immigrants are not without precedent.
Waves of immigrants are not without precedent.
That is quite true. What are the nation-states of Europe except the territories finally held by the various barbarian tribes who gradually displaced the Western Roman Empire? Humans are an invasive species. Talking about "native peoples" seems a bit inaccurate in that context. "Current occupants" would seem to be more descriptive.
Lacking America's long experience in constructing a country from the flotsam and jetsam of humanity, it will be interesting to see how effectively the cultures of Europe will either assimilate or adapt to this influx of people they seem physically and politically incapable of controlling.
Lots of walls have been built through the ages......to keep one's own people safer. Even if people flooding into your country aren't terrorists, I think it would be naive to look at them all as resources. Like I said earlier......it's easy to sit comfortably and think you know how you would truly react if you were in the midst of these problems.
Teacher Terry
9-27-15, 12:40pm
Europe does not have enough jobs for its own people. This is going to be a huge problem. They also can't afford to keep paying people large social welfare benefits. My son says watching the local news there is so enlightening compared to watching it from here. Yes they may have skills, degrees, etc but they won't be allowed to practice if a degree is required. My DIL has a BA from Poland-HS French teacher-she is fluent in 5 languages. In the US she teaches preschool. WE won't recognize her degree. I had a client that had a master's degree working in a warehouse. Same reason-we won't recognize her degrees.
I'm finding it hard to understand all this acceptance of the immigrants. Yes, it's tragic, but how can one just keep saying things like "we have to treat them like ourselves, and give them jobs, etc.,etc.", without a whole lot of knowledge about the people, either coming from the middle east, or the actual state of the countries they are going into.
A few people on here have suggested that they would welcome these people flooding into their towns. Yeah, right.
And the bad talk out there about how Hungary handled things....well, I can just shake my head. I mean it all sounds so polly-annish and naive to say some of these things.
New people will create new jobs--markets, restaurants, services of all kinds. And government services will need to be expanded for a while. Some system needs to be in place for certifying people's degrees and/or previous experience. That's the government's fault, and should be fixed. We can't afford to squander human potential. All the H-1b employees here prove it can be done.
Jane, you must live in a city. I am a person who lives in a rural area, which is the way I want to live and think more people should live with this much room. Maybe you live in a city with no crime or poverty and great education. I would say that's not how it is everywhere, and the last thing we need is more "growth and development".....which is what you're saying we need and want.....and can have by welcoming more and more immigrants.
I think your thinking might work in a perfect world.......which is definitely not what we have.
And how does "New people will create new jobs--markets, restaurants, services of all kinds"........fit into a simple life??
I was at a faith-based gathering in my area recently and a woman was speaking about the refugee/migrant situation. She was totally unrealistic and impractical. She was actually advocating for people here in the US to take migrants into their private homes. She actually said she didn't consider Christians to be living their faith if they didn't do this.
That peeved me to no end, so I spoke up and peppered her with question after question in front of everyone. Does she actually expect people to take unknown individuals and families into their homes? I said that some figures have nearly 70% of the migrants as single men. You expect me, as a single woman, living in a small 1BR apartment, to actually take a man I don't know from Adam into my place? She actually said yes, although I kept on. What about people with children, you expect them to expose their kids to potentially dangerous people? She saiid yes to this one, too. I finished by telling her that I'm a gun owner and if she thinks I'm letting someone I don't know to live with me, even with my guns locked up, she needs to have her meds adjusted. By this time, other people were telling her she was a fool.
As Cathy said, some people are so Pollyanna-ish that they are clueless to the practicality of what they propose. Also, the only way the migrants are going to get to the US is by putting them on planes. It's a lot different in Europe where you can just put them on a train or bus.
Dig deep and you will find that those who mostly say "send everyone here" really only wants "some" of them. The trained, English speaking, polite, families, hard working, etc.
We also don't fund their lives forever as some European countries do. The US and states dont recognize many licenses from other countries and have many barriers to new occupations/business for immigrants (and citizens too). Which is why doctors are found working as orderlies or cleaning offices, etc.
Housing is often a big issue. Our Section 8 subsidized housing has very long waiting lists which is why many immigrants are sponsored by churchs or live many to a unit. It is helpful if there are others around who speak the language to act as translators for those who do not yet speak, read or write the local language. It is very hard to live in a small town in a rural area with no one around to communicate with. We have a very large Burmese population and each new family that comes gets that instant community and support from those that came before.
Sweetana, I saw an article on the BBC website a few years back talking about the US taking more migrants. It was mentioned that in the 90s, at the time of the Kosovo crisis, many refugees were brought in and housed at Ft Dix in New Jersey (I think), which had recently closed at the time due to military base cuts. So we were able to house many, but the were kept on the base, which restricted their movements in case there were questionable individuals who were allowed in. That's a possibility.
Iraqi migrants are turning back at Finland border - too cold and boring.
http://news.yahoo.com/finlands-no-good-disappointed-migrants-turn-back-152042061.html
That brings up something I've never understood. Why would you settle folks from a warm country, such as Somalia, in Minnesota, which has a large Somali population? Talk about culture shock.
ApatheticNoMore
9-27-15, 3:03pm
maybe they should compute how many their employment and social safety nets could absorb generously even and let as many as they can handle and still maintain generous even social safety nets etc.. The government could expand social services (but in a country like the u.s., that is the same government that allows mass homelessness).
All the H1B employees here are is a cheap labor ploy (no not them personally but that's the function they serve structurally). They use them instead of hiring anyone over 50 (truthfully one could say anyone over 35 or 40 sometimes).
ApatheticNoMore
9-27-15, 3:05pm
, in Minnesota, which has a large Somali population? Talk about culture shock.
yea I could never learn to drive in the snow probably, so NYC where it was all public transport maybe (though it's still cold), but somewhere where it wasn't all public transport and actual driving in the snow, too much culture shock for me!
I would bet that the Ft. Dix was a temporary situation to get them into the country enmasse. Not much different than a refugee camp overseas or a undocumented detention camp. They still have to go somewhere and the same issues of support, housing, language, jobs, community exist.
Sometimes a community starts with a few families being sponsored by a church and then word of mouth and the assistance of the churchs and local community brings in more families. Our Burmese population almost all start out in one big apartment community and kids go to one elementary school (which has very high marks for success). There are Asian groceries that have opened up within walking distance and a few new Burmese businesses run by those who quickly integrated.
You all might enjoy this story about one family: http://www.nuvo.net/indianapolis/from-burma-to-indianapolis-a-familys-journey/Content?oid=2538383
Thank you for posting this. These refugee stories are always gut-wrenching.
You can see the assimilation has started. I know these children will do very well, as others have before them. I like looking at who wins the science, spelling, and geography competitions from time to time; the listed names look like the U.N. They make us better for being here.
flowerseverywhere
9-27-15, 6:21pm
I was at a faith-based gathering in my area recently and a woman was speaking about the refugee/migrant situation. She was totally unrealistic and impractical. She was actually advocating for people here in the US to take migrants into their private homes. She actually said she didn't consider Christians to be living their faith if they didn't do this.
That peeved me to no end, so I spoke up and peppered her with question after question in front of everyone. Does she actually expect people to take unknown individuals and families into their homes? I said that some figures have nearly 70% of the migrants as single men. You expect me, as a single woman, living in a small 1BR apartment, to actually take a man I don't know from Adam into my place? She actually said yes, although I kept on. What about people with children, you expect them to expose their kids to potentially dangerous people? She saiid yes to this one, too. I finished by telling her that I'm a gun owner and if she thinks I'm letting someone I don't know to live with me, even with my guns locked up, she needs to have her meds adjusted. By this time, other people were telling her she was a fool.
As Cathy said, some people are so Pollyanna-ish that they are clueless to the practicality of what they propose. Also, the only way the migrants are going to get to the US is by putting them on planes. It's a lot different in Europe where you can just put them on a train or bus.
Tradd, what you posted is so true. No way would I take in a family or person I had no idea of their background. Also, some of these men come from cultures where treatment of women is a far cry from what it is here. Women have fought hard to earn rights and respect. when I first heard of this crisis I had a very different opinion than what I have now. Many are arriving with no papers. And if the largest population is young men where are the women and children? Did these men leave their sisters, mothers, wives and children back in these countries they are desperately fleeing from?
Teacher Terry
9-27-15, 6:32pm
After the Vietnam war the government sent a ton of Laos people to live in rural northern Wis. It can get to -40 & snows a lot. Rural communities were not welcoming & kids were made afraid of etc. The Laos people went on welfare because there were no jobs to assimilate to. I never figured out why they didn't put them in a warm climate with a decent job market. They were set up to fail.
Teacher Terry
9-27-15, 6:33pm
Also many European people don't have jobs for their own people. Lots of Polish people live/work in Germany only for jobs when they would prefer to be in their own country.
iris lilies
9-27-15, 7:43pm
After the Vietnam war the government sent a ton of Laos people to live in rural northern Wis. It can get to -40 & snows a lot. Rural communities were not welcoming & kids were made afraid of etc. The Laos people went on welfare because there were no jobs to assimilate to. I never figured out why they didn't put them in a warm climate with a decent job market. They were set up to fail.
but the Hmong in the twin Cities seem fairly successful. If not completely integrated into society, at least they are doin ok. I also alway wondered about placing them in frigid MN, but they are mountain people so know some cold.
All of the Vietnamese who came here30+ years ago did well, very well. I don't know their socioeconomic class, though.
the Bosnians here, as I have related multiple times, are fabulous immigrants. I love them. And they are Muslim.
NPR had a couple of stories over the past week about the "military age Syrians" families are doing their damnedest to get their young men out of the country because otherwise it is forced army service, and neither side is worth dying for. One story was about a young man who completed his final exams one day,and on the following day he and his family fled Syria.
The Vietnamese here (many of whom were stalwart allies during the war) faced the usual bias, but worked together, encouraged their children to get good educations, and have prospered. Even the Hmong, who came here as simple farmers.
Reports are that ISIS is streaming into Syria now--30,000 was the figure given--so probably anyone who isn't a hard line Jihadi wants to flee. Years of drought, a government worthy of North Korea, invasion by madmen--who wouldn't get out if they could?
Teacher Terry
9-28-15, 12:41pm
I have to say I don't know what happened to the Hmong people after 1993 when I left Wis. At that point things were still not going well for them. For a couple of years I was going to graduate school in a small town where they were & things were bad. There was a lot of prejudice at the time. Part of it was due to the fact that they were stealing people's pet chickens to eat. They were just disappearing from people's backyards. It would have been much better to settle them in Milwaukee where there were jobs & not so darn cold. Also there is much less discrimination in Milwaukee because of all the diverse cultures. When you get to rural Wis everyone is white. Glad to hear that they have thrived in other places.
I was speaking with a nice Syrian lady at dinner the other night, and she suggested the "young males of military age" issue was because young men in Syria get drafted into the military, which nobody sane wants to be involved in, so every family that is able to is sending their young sons out of the country before they get starring roles in The Hunger Games.
When you get to rural Wis everyone is white.
The Chippewa, Menominee, Oneidas and Ho-Chunks might be surprised to hear that.
I was at a faith-based gathering in my area recently and a woman was speaking about the refugee/migrant situation. She was totally unrealistic and impractical. She was actually advocating for people here in the US to take migrants into their private homes. She actually said she didn't consider Christians to be living their faith if they didn't do this.
That peeved me to no end, so I spoke up and peppered her with question after question in front of everyone. Does she actually expect people to take unknown individuals and families into their homes? I said that some figures have nearly 70% of the migrants as single men. You expect me, as a single woman, living in a small 1BR apartment, to actually take a man I don't know from Adam into my place? She actually said yes, although I kept on. What about people with children, you expect them to expose their kids to potentially dangerous people? She saiid yes to this one, too. I finished by telling her that I'm a gun owner and if she thinks I'm letting someone I don't know to live with me, even with my guns locked up, she needs to have her meds adjusted. By this time, other people were telling her she was a fool.
As Cathy said, some people are so Pollyanna-ish that they are clueless to the practicality of what they propose. Also, the only way the migrants are going to get to the US is by putting them on planes. It's a lot different in Europe where you can just put them on a train or bus.
I'm not saying that Christians aren't living their faith if they don't open their homes, but I also don't consider her crazy. If she's crazy, so are all the other people who have opened their homes to strangers. What about the people who hid Jews in their homes during World War II? What about the large number of American families that took in Vietnamese boat people? What about the people in this recent article in The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/07/british-families-open-homes-asylum-seekers-refugees)?
I totally understand why a single woman would not want to open her home to a strange man.. that seems obvious. I do feel that if individuals or families feel called to accept a refugee family into their home, that's wonderful. They are living out what Jesus said in Matthew 25:35: "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in."
Miss Cellane
9-29-15, 7:06am
Just a side note. The blogger "Humans of New York," is over in Europe right now, collecting stories from some of the refugees and posting them online.
The web address is: http://www.humansofnewyork.com/ if you are interested.
Catherine, my issue with the speaker was she actually said if you don't take in a migrant, you're worthless as a Christian. I don't mind working with refugees. I worked with a group of the Lost Boys of Sudan maybe 12 years ago, but to be told I must take one into my home, with no thoughts to the practicality of that in my individual situation was just foolish.
Catherine, my issue with the speaker was she actually said if you don't take in a migrant, you're worthless as a Christian. I don't mind working with refugees. I worked with a group of the Lost Boys of Sudan maybe 12 years ago, but to be told I must take one into my home, with no thoughts to the practicality of that in my individual situation was just foolish.
I completely agree--she was wrong to have such black and white thinking for sure. That's why "discernment" is a a critical virtue--for people of all religions.
I think that we should accept them. Change the burocracy so that it doesn't take 5 years to sponsor a family. Get your community on side and bring is as many as you can. I would not leave them where they are.
I heard a story on the radio of an older woman who took in a family of refugees for I think a year. She had a great experience and they helped her so much around the house.
As for frugal ways - i believe that many of our country's refugees in the past could have written the book on how to live frugally. That could be incredible to add to our nation's habits and ways.
Teacher Terry
9-29-15, 11:52am
LDAHL: frequently they live on reservations & not in the towns by choice. The towns back then were mostly white. I know what it was like back then. Have you lived there?
gimmethesimplelife
9-29-15, 2:28pm
This issue has really become personal for me. On my last full day in Austria earlier this month, my mother and I took a train from Salzburg to the main train station in Vienna. There, I could clearly see the Austrian police politely and orderly leading refugee to trains bound for Munich. Upon entering the train station, I found the refugee welcoming center where meals and information were being offered to refugees and Austrians were coming and dropping off donations for the refugees. This was literally history unfolding before my eyes and it was very intense and very personal for me. I gave a few refuges 10 Euro notes and wished them good luck in their new lives in Germany.....one of them thanked me back in English so I knew one of them understood what I was saying or at least had a jist of what I was saying. This is the first time in my life I have really encountered history in the process of unfolding and I feel so frustrated that I am unable to do much to alleviate the suffering or help in some kind of basic way......Rob
LDAHL: frequently they live on reservations & not in the towns by choice. The towns back then were mostly white. I know what it was like back then. Have you lived there?
Yes.
Miss Cellane
9-29-15, 11:39pm
My brother lives in Turkey, so I asked him what the situation was there. Turkey has over 1.5 million Syrian "guests," as they are officially called. Turkey does not want to call them immigrants, apparently in the hope that someday, they will be able to go home. Turkey has had Syrian refugees since 2011.
Most do not live in the refugee camps, but are living in cramped conditions around the country. Many have some sort of job, even just selling things on the street. Some have been able to open their own stores/businesses.
There are problems. Turkey has spent over $8 billion since 2011 on the refugees, and there is no end to their stay in sight. So some people are beginning to complain about the number of refugees and the amount of money the government is having to spend on them.
Also, after WWII, Turkey made the decision to turn its back on the Arab world and to align itself with Europe. They changed the alphabet from Arabic letters to Latin letters. Women were able to stop wearing the veil, although more conservative women still do--but it's a choice, not a mandate.
So the growing presence of stores with Arabic letter signs, and more people speaking Arabic on the streets--that, too, is causing some problems.
Some of the Syrian refugees are Kurdish, and Turkey has an uneasy relationship with the Kurds. So that's another layer of problems.
For the most part, the Syrians have been accepted into Turkish society, but there have been small incidents here and there.
My brother says that the countries surrounding Syria--Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon--have, at this point, as many refugees as they can comfortably handle. They have been taking in refugees for years, and there is no end in sight. He thinks that other countries have to step up and take in some of the refugees and spread the burden around. Well, what he really thinks is that somehow IS needs to be stopped, and Syria needs a new government, but he also sees no sign of that happening soon.
Oh, I like this idea:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SOUGHT_AFTER_SYRIANS_MIOL-?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Even though we're slated to take in a laughably small contingent of refugees, this could work to everyone's advantage.
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