View Full Version : will we ever get progress on domestic violence issues?
i was talking to a teacher at my school that i have known for years, starting when she was in a different role in the school. She is great and we have built up some trust so i know a lot about her life. She was abused for years, got divorced, has been building up her life, has a new wonderful fiancee, and it is supposed to get better. well it is better but i am so upset at the totally legal ways her abusive ex is using the systems to go after her. He wants her thrown in jail. He wanted her thrown in jail for taking the kids on taxes when she wasn't supposed to and then in the process of paying back the money she misunderstood something. they had cash in the courtroom and his lawyer still said he wouldn't accept it unless she went to jail. the judge wouldn't throw her in jail but can't force the ex to agree so they are still in this process of paying lawyers, going to court, being threatened with jail,
the up-side is most likely the CFI will lose her job (child family investigator). She interviewed everyone and made recommendations and lied about even basic things such as how much time she spent with everyone. She also went back 20 years on the understanding of domestic violence and recommended sole decision making to a man with documented domestic violence against my friend and one child. there may be a civil case possible to get back some of the legal fees caused by her report being false.
i am glad my friend is out and maybe the course of this will change in a more positive direction, but after being apart for 10 years to still have this guy so strongly invested in going after her still scares me.
rodeosweetheart
9-11-15, 9:51am
I guess I don't understand the whole story, why a CFI is losing her job, and why if this report was false, then your friend is still facing possibility of jail? What does "taking kids on taxes" mean? Why would she be threatened with jail for this? When was last incident of dv by husband? Or are you saying this is dv?
I'm just really confused!
oh dear it is confusing. My friend took the deduction for the kids on her tax return, (it is usually set in a divorce decree who can take the kids as a deduction and what years) she wasn't supposed to that year and has to pay back some money. She is doing that but it had to be done a specific way. because of this her ex is asking she be put in jail for contempt of court because she didn't pay it back exactly correctly. She had cash at court but he is not legally required to accept that. He is allowed to do this, force her to come to court or be in contempt (therefore in jail) and can refuse the financial settlement. each court appearance costs time off work, the payment to her lawyer and the emotional effect of knowing that a judge could hold her in contempt for not paying it correctly and on time. this is legal.
the CFI recommends what is best for the kids, interviews the family members and kids and looks at the history. it is usually a social worker or counselor with training to understand family dynamics. So the CFI was part of the legal proceedings and was caught in major lies. her recommendation was that dad have sole decision making ability (medical, school, etc decisions). Her opinion on the police reports of DV was that they were wrong. so we still have people who are supposed to be professional and impartial who making these decisions. that means all the money they spent hiring her, in court time, interview time, is lost and they have to start over. there may be a way to address this in civil court and get that money back, but meanwhile it is back in limbo for everyone.
My point is that DV isn't over as soon as someone moves out or gets a divorce. Not many people would spend 10 years doing this over and over, threatening jail with what amounts to a few hundred dollars now, and i think it is another way to prolong abuse. Sorry this is probably not the best forum or way to think this through
rodeosweetheart
9-11-15, 11:11am
oh dear it is confusing. My friend took the deduction for the kids on her tax return, (it is usually set in a divorce decree who can take the kids as a deduction and what years) she wasn't supposed to that year and has to pay back some money. She is doing that but it had to be done a specific way. because of this her ex is asking she be put in jail for contempt of court because she didn't pay it back exactly correctly. She had cash at court but he is not legally required to accept that. He is allowed to do this, force her to come to court or be in contempt (therefore in jail) and can refuse the financial settlement. each court appearance costs time off work, the payment to her lawyer and the emotional effect of knowing that a judge could hold her in contempt for not paying it correctly and on time. this is legal.
the CFI recommends what is best for the kids, interviews the family members and kids and looks at the history. it is usually a social worker or counselor with training to understand family dynamics. So the CFI was part of the legal proceedings and was caught in major lies. her recommendation was that dad have sole decision making ability (medical, school, etc decisions). Her opinion on the police reports of DV was that they were wrong. so we still have people who are supposed to be professional and impartial who making these decisions. that means all the money they spent hiring her, in court time, interview time, is lost and they have to start over. there may be a way to address this in civil court and get that money back, but meanwhile it is back in limbo for everyone.
My point is that DV isn't over as soon as someone moves out or gets a divorce. Not many people would spend 10 years doing this over and over, threatening jail with what amounts to a few hundred dollars now, and i think it is another way to prolong abuse. Sorry this is probably not the best forum or way to think this through
Oh, yeah, I get it now. Gosh, what a bad situation to be in. In my case, once the kids graduated high school, I did not have to have anything to do with him. I had a protective order that he could not come by my house. I wish there was a way that one could obtain a protective order against financial harassment.
She might be advised to have a professional tax attorney do her taxes from now on, insulate her a little, at least psychologically?
Unsure about the whole CFI component. Can she get custody modified, given that new information?
sweetana3
9-11-15, 12:26pm
When you have kids together or even if none and some amount of money or assets are involved in a divorce, it can never go away. Even grown kids doesnt mean that the issues completely go away. Just read all the treads from grandparents, step parents, parents, and all the others battling over all kinds of things, like who will visit on Xmas, why wont they come here rather than there..........
Zoe, none of us on this board can really advise on info that is second hand at best. We can sympathize that he may be a jerk but this doesn't help anyone. She did a number of things incorrectly, maybe unintentially, but still your post says she did not comply with what she was supposed to do. Taking the kids on her taxes could cause him all kinds of grief with his taxes and dealing with the IRS in such situations is incredibly frustrating. (I worked for the IRS for 31 years and this issue is a hot button one.) He is not handling it well but, if he is a jerk....................................
We know someone in a similiar situtation. After around 10 years and the 2 girls and a boy were teenagers, it turned out their father was a molester. So in addition to trying to control the wife after the divorse, he was molesting the kids. The whole situation was a disaster for everyone. She did finally get sole custody, got a lot of counseling for all, got remarried and established a new family unit without the drama. Took years of being in court and court decrees and lawyer fees.
rodeosweetheart
9-11-15, 1:11pm
When you have kids together or even if none and some amount of money or assets are involved in a divorce, it can never go away. Even grown kids doesnt mean that the issues completely go away. Just read all the treads from grandparents, step parents, parents, and all the others battling over all kinds of things, like who will visit on Xmas, why wont they come here rather than there...........
Yes and no. I do think it can go away in that a victim of dv must say, I will no longer accept this person into my life, I will no longer allow this person to hurt me, I will no longer accept a system that says I must continue to deal with this person.
I tried to do that, and while my kids did not understand at the time, they do now.
I would never tell a victim of dv that "it can never go away" as that is a horrible thought, a death sentence in many cases, or at least death to the spirit.
Would one tell a victim attacked by a stranger, "it can never go away, you are always going to have this person in your life?"
Maybe that is what ZG is writing about here, in a way.
iris lilies
9-11-15, 1:28pm
Yes and no. I do think it can go away in that a victim of dv must say, I will no longer accept this person into my life, I will no longer allow this person to hurt me, I will no longer accept a system that says I must continue to deal with this person.
I tried to do that, and while my kids did not understand at the time, they do now.
I would never tell a victim of dv that "it can never go away" as that is a horrible thought, a death sentence in many cases, or at least death to the spirit.
Would one tell a victim attacked by a stranger, "it can never go away, you are always going to have this person in your life?"
Maybe that is what ZG is writing about here, in a way.
but the practical aspect is that your kids will have weddings, occasions for the ex to show up. They will have children and children's birthdays, occasions for the ex to show up. God forbid there may be emergency events in a hospital with your kids or their kids and ex is there at their bedside.
I dont see how practically you (the generic you) can physically avoid the ex, unless you simply avoid all instances of his presence and also avoid all such life events.
:idea: You could shoot him ... oh no, wait, "can't live with him, can't shoot him." sorry.
rodeosweetheart
9-11-15, 2:36pm
but the practical aspect is that your kids will have weddings, occasions for the ex to show up. They will have children and children's birthdays, occasions for the ex to show up. God forbid there may be emergency events in a hospital with your kids or their kids and ex is there at their bedside.
I dont see how practically you (the generic you) can physically avoid the ex, unless you simply avoid all instances of his presence and also avoid all such life events.
Well, in my case, he never showed up, although he was invited.
He was at one graduation and everyone sat on opposite sides of room.
He did not go to either son's wedding.
Won't even return their phone calls.
So in the end, he vacated their lives, really.
"God forbid there may be emergency events in a hospital with your kids or their kids and ex is there at their bedside. "
I had to laugh at this one, since there was such an event when we were still married, and in the emergency room, when my son needed emergency surgery after life threatening emergency injury, and we were awaiting the arrival of the surgeon, he yawned and announced, "I have to work tomorrow so I'm going home and going to bed."
I guess it depends on the person. But sometimes, the "you will have this person in your life the rest of your life" just doesn't hold up.
It's not so much that we set out to avoid him--he vacated the scene, as it were.
Ah, but he took the steps to "vacate the scene." In ZG's case as in my friend's, the husband was a controlling SOB who refused to give up control and did everything possible to intrude in the wife and kids lives. Totally different. If you have a child together, that person (mother or father) remains their parent until death. Serious issues can generate protective orders but it still remains in the background. They can choose to vacate the life but it is almost impossible to remove them.
The person needs to develop skills to deal with the situation both with the emotional issues and the day to day issues.
iris lilies
9-11-15, 6:41pm
Here's an unpopular idea that will immediately be labeled as blaming the victim but I pretty much ascribe to it:
Until women become very smart about the quality of the man who provides the sperm to produce their offspring, until men can identify women who will be good moms to their children, this kind of stuff will go on. I ask is that we not blame lack of "laws" on the choices parents make.
I honestly do not know how legislation solves these problems but am deeply skeptical I want to live in a country where laws and the heavy hand of Nanny G attempts to make parents good parents through legislation.
i often say that when
I am Queen, I will decide who gets to reproduce. Until then I do not want the gubmnt deeply in that business.Sadly, children will always suffer in these scenarios regardless of who,is deciding their fate.
Here's an unpopular idea that will immediately be labeled as blaming the victim but I pretty much ascribe to it:
Until women become very smart about the quality of the man who provides the sperm to produce their offspring, until men can identify women who will be good moms to their children, this kind of stuff will go on. I ask is that we not blame lack of "laws" on the choices parents make.
I honestly do not know how legislation solves these problems but am deeply skeptical I want to live in a country where laws and the heavy hand of Nanny G attempts to make parents good parents through legislation.
i often say that when
I am Queen, I will decide who gets to reproduce. Until then I do not want the gubmnt deeply in that business.Sadly, children will always suffer in these scenarios regardless of who,is deciding their fate.
I agree, and you can take children out of it: until everyone will stand up for themselves and/or walk away at the first sign of physical or emotional abuse and not tolerate a damaging relationship, until this is taught by schools and parents, and is whole-heartedly supported by society, until we give up on the idea of unconditional love, stop putting the relationship ahead of our own basic needs, stop seeing jealousy and possessiveness, control, and dependence as cornerstones of normal relationships we will still have these problems.
I had to learn all this the hard way, and luckily I survived because the man didn't try to marry or impregnate me. I'd rather have known this all ahead of time, but that is not the reality for many women and some men.
rodeosweetheart
9-11-15, 7:31pm
Ah, but he took the steps to "vacate the scene." In ZG's case as in my friend's, the husband was a controlling SOB who refused to give up control and did everything possible to intrude in the wife and kids lives. Totally different. If you have a child together, that person (mother or father) remains their parent until death. Serious issues can generate protective orders but it still remains in the background. They can choose to vacate the life but it is almost impossible to remove them.
The person needs to develop skills to deal with the situation both with the emotional issues and the day to day issues.
No, Sweetana, he vacated the scene over a period of 15 years. He continued to harass me while showing little interest in parenting the children. He continued to bully and abuse them emotionally, to drive drunk while they were in the car, to endanger them and neglect them while he had overnight visitations.
I meant he is vacant from the scene now, when they are grown ups. But he did everything he could to make all of us suffer when he was on the scene, until the kids got old enough to say, we are not coming over.
I was actually referring to the lifelong sentence aspect of things, which is what i thought you were saying, that someone with an abusive ex is "stuck with them forever."
rodeosweetheart
9-11-15, 7:34pm
"We need legislation that punishes a man who has bloodied his wife by slamming her head over and over into the dashboard (there's more, that's enough) and tries to take off with one of the children for more than a "lovers spat". I want that legislation, punishment for violence to be more equal around the country. The judge here told him in NY, he would've been charged with attempting kidnap and I forget just now what the charge for violence to that degree would've been, and the punishment would've involved jail time and not just anger management. And the charges would've been felonies so he would've lost his job."
Amen.
t
Pretty damn similar to me, had careers, kids, decent finances, thought they were in a good safe relationship until one day, they weren't.
so maybe before judging so harshly, perhaps you should sit in on one of these meetings. DV survivors are not all the same. But it does not matter if they were, no one has the right to beat another person.
that is part of what i want, change the f-ing GD image of it!! i have 3 friends and myself and i will tell you that you couldn't pick any of us out of a lineup as a victim. in fact i get told i am a little too good at taking care of myself, protective, don't care what other people think and really smart. this was a big step for me to talk about it here, i talk to 2 people who have lived through it. i saw this friend today and she was so relieved to have someone who totally got it, non-judgemental and not broken forever by it either. and people to understand that we are not crazy women, we are smart and creative and survivors. However that survival instinct right now is telling both of us that a reasonably normal guy would be letting things go and moving on. Her ex is remarried, they split 8 years ago, divorced for 6 and his anger is increasing. that is a red flag, it is not something to ignore, and there are only a very few people we can talk to. police, lawyers, and social workers are a mixed bag.
the other is legal, possibly and effective. if you beat your spouse in front of the children then you are charged with that plus something like child abuse or neglect. if you have a police report of child abuse against you then you have no chance in h** of paying a lawyer and taking up court time to try for sole decision making. if someone has called the police because they were being hurt they should not have to have that questioned every time a parenting time decision is made for the next 8 years (she has been out of the house for 8 years). pretty simple, he should have no legal power at all, he should be crawling through the social services system like all the poor families i know that get reported for child abuse, taking classes and pee tests and having his house visited, and having supervised visitation.
okay, that is good for now
My apologies to those I have clearly offended. That was certainly not my intent. All I'm trying to say is that in my experience it seems there are many people willing to condone or ignore inappropriate behaviours - making excuses, looking the other way, etc, - law enforcement, friends, family, and sometimes those involved. Obviously I cannot speak to every situation. I still maintain that there needs to be significant societal shift for any real progress to be made. I'm speaking to the general question posed in the thread title.
My apologies to those I have clearly offended. That was certainly not my intent. All I'm trying to say is that in my experience it seems there are many people willing to condone or ignore inappropriate behaviours - making excuses, looking the other way, etc, - law enforcement, friends, family, and sometimes those involved. Obviously I cannot speak to every situation. I still maintain that there needs to be significant societal shift for any real progress to be made. I'm speaking to the general question posed in the thread title.
i agree, there is so much that is hard to grasp. i was never hit and my ex was not like this in the beginning years so honestly my own family did not understand for a very long time. when my sister came to support me at a meditation she fell apart and cried several times. my spiritual advisors knew both of us and didn't comprehend at all. i have lost friends over what i felt was necessary to do. and it is okay in some ways, other ways i still get angry because there is not a way to get balance outside, i just need to find it in myself. however i can see how it is hard to figure these things out from outside. we deeply believe that no one needs to be a victim and it almost works against people.
i think learned helplessness is very real. My friend who had the cop husband who beat her has developed such habits and behaviors to deal with it that are too much for most of us to handle, dealing in cash, driving around at strange times to get cash from him or trade the child off, never any idea how much money she is getting, no record keeping, bills in collections from divorce never settled, chaotic schedules. when she has made some progress in areas then another thing happens and he pulls her back off balance so i think she just stopped a long time ago. i had to back off, i am in a situation (with a lot of family support) to not have that level of chaos and i just can't do it. But i can realize where it comes from and not judge which is a small thing.
maybe that is something we can do, we hear or experience something, we take a breath and settle and then evaluate. there are people out there with many stories, then look at what this person is really doing and really wants, respond without judgement even if you need to get involved. yeah simple but not easy
freshstart
9-12-15, 11:25am
But i can realize where it comes from and not judge which is a small thing.
maybe that is something we can do, we hear or experience something, we take a breath and settle and then evaluate. there are people out there with many stories, then look at what this person is really doing and really wants, respond without judgement even if you need to get involved. yeah simple but not easy
I'd say not judging is a HUGE thing
freshstart
9-12-15, 10:35pm
I deleted my posts not because of anyone here. I feel like using an incredibly painful situation that happened to me maybe could make some inroads as to how and why this happens, how hard it is to get out even when you are an employed, strong, independent person. Maybe I can be one of those survivors who stands up and talks about it with no concern for judgment or privacy, but that would violate my children's privacy as well and it would make one off the charts, unwell crazy person 10xs worse. I am happy to discuss this further, I am just taking my own details down because by now, whoever wanted to read them, probably has. Every DV survivor is the same in one way, we have been at the bottom and scared but every one of us has a totally different story. So please understand I am not taking it down because I am embarrassed, ashamed or in response to any comments, none of that. It simply needs to come down because telling it is painful, I hope I made some sensical points, the prime one being it really can happen to anyone, I just don't want to keep seeing it there as a reminder of a black time. Again, totally open to discussion or God forbid, to anyone who needs help and it is me taking it down because of one thing, I am effin' sick of my story and feeling like that story defines me even though I know it doesn't. I hope I am not offending anyone, that is not my intent
Williamsmith
9-13-15, 7:44am
I would simply say this.. DV is an incredibly complicated situation each incident having its own details. And for most people trying to help, it is overwhelming trying to make things better. Lots of anger and bitterness involved and many times controlled substances, alcohol, drugs, addictions of all kinds involved. For anyone being sent in, it's like having a bucket of water in a blazing forest fire. I have been sent in and expected to fix things in 15 minutes that took years to get screwed up. Over the years I did see a great change in the application of the law. By the time I retired, their was zero tolerance for any abuse in my Commonwealth. So things are changing legislatively but individually every day can be a challenge.
Again, totally open to discussion or God forbid, to anyone who needs help and it is me taking it down because of one thing, I am effin' sick of my story and feeling like that story defines me even though I know it doesn't. I hope I am not offending anyone, that is not my intent
Consider sharing who you've become and that journey? You sound healthy and properly protective of your children. My hat is off to you!
My experience with DV victims is they remain in victim state. Not wallowing necessarily but definitely not leaving it. I am very interested in your story of leaving that state which I believe is necessary for a new life and happiness.
rodeosweetheart
9-13-15, 8:20am
Hopefully you did not mean to give offense, but can you see, Gardnr, how your post might undermine those of us who are abuse victims, when you state " My experience with DV victims is they remain in victim state. Not wallowing necessarily but definitely not leaving it. "
Can you see how I might perceive this as judging me, defining who I am?
Why would I want to talk to you about my experiences if this is what you say? You have already looked at this situation and made up your mind, it seems to me. So why would I want to prove to you that I am "not like other abuse victims"--it puts me in a catch 22, really--either I deny my reality to get your approval, or I speak my reality and have you state that I am "remaining in the victim state--not wallowing necessarily, but definitely not leaving it."
I guess this boils down to ZG's initial observation--why hasn't this situation improved, why are the stereotypes still running the show. Who gives the spectators the right to look at another's suffering and determine they are "wallowing" in it? When did we give that right away?? When someone hit us?? When someone threatened us?? When someone told lies to a judge so that they could avoid paying child support? When someone told us, "you'll never see your children again, because you are crazy, and I will have a judge declare you crazy?"
Is that wallowing? To admit these things happened to us--college educated, bright, promising people?
Hopefully you did not mean to give offense, but can you see, Gardnr, how your post might undermine those of us who are abuse victims, when you state " My experience with DV victims is they remain in victim state. Not wallowing necessarily but definitely not leaving it. "
Can you see how I might perceive this as judging me, defining who I am?
You are correct-no offense intended. I did state "my experience".
I genuinely want to learn from those who have been able to move forward. Perhaps I can learn something to provide resources or insight to those I know?
rodeosweetheart
9-13-15, 9:34am
My guess is that if you have not experienced this, but are saying that victims are "wallowing" in their experiences, that you might not be someone who is in a position to provide resources or insight to victims.
Think about that word "wallowing"--do you think that evidences real sensitivity to their suffering? Wallowing is a word we use for pigs, after all, in the mud.
oh yeah, staying in the victim state. My friend is having her ex escalate 8 years later. She did not make this up. if she lets her guard down, does not make every court appearance, save all the receipts, have her home ready for a social services call, plus do a good job at life then she is more at risk. we do NOT make the sh** up! if tomorrow he called off the court battle, complied with the parenting plan and moved on she would be fine.
Can i suggest that the vast majority of the time you will never know who a victim is, maybe you meet a vocal one who is still processing but most of us are pretty darn quiet. we are not going to tell you this about ourselves without a LOT of trust, having this conversation is part of saying that we are not who you think we are, who you want us to be or who our abuser decided to call us. if you met my friends they are successful women, confident, great with their kids. the one in this story is a teacher with great performance, and yet he can try to take away decision making from her. what you may notice is when talk of custody comes up, visiting the other parent, plans, then there is a change. i had people call me on that, even lost a freindship. i should be different somehow, they knew i was one way with all the other situations and then i got cold, uncompromising, i didn't want to talk about things. i did weird things like keep my phone on the entire time they were with dad and would go pick them up even if it was dad time, of course my friends wanted me to trust him and have a life. i learned ways to not tell people the story even after i was divorced because somehow i became the holder of the expectation of friendly divorce. if i spoke the truth then it scared people. if they could not figure out what i did wrong to end up in the situation then they were at risk. But if they could say i didn't date long enough or that i missed a red flag or that i was poor/uneducated/drunk then they were safe and it could never happen to them.
Freshstart, i get it, i am not talking about my own experiences here for a reason. i lived through it, by some miracle mine actually detached which i doubt had anything to do with me, and i am not that old story anymore however it does help create who i am today. Many of what other people are sharing have been my experiences as well.
I am sorry my choice of semantics is offensive. My intent to understand and learn is genuine. In tears I leave this thread.
please don't leave if you are willing to learn, we will be very honest but being in an on-line forum is pretty safe to ask questions and maybe return to the people in your life that you want to work better with.
rodeosweetheart
9-13-15, 10:18am
I am sorry my choice of semantics is offensive. My intent to understand and learn is genuine. In tears I leave this thread.
And I apologize if my choice of semantics is offensive to you. It is certainly not my intention to make you cry! It's great that you want to learn.
This topic is very frightening to many. ZoeGirl stated it well in that if people can "figure out what the abused did wrong, they can be sure it won't happen to them". The facts are it can happen to anyone in a relationship. My heart aches for those who are recovering and those still in it.
This topic is very frightening to many. ZoeGirl stated it well in that if people can "figure out what the abused did wrong, they can be sure it won't happen to them". The facts are it can happen to anyone in a relationship. My heart aches for those who are recovering and those still in it.
i was looking for the 'like' button
freshstart
9-13-15, 1:02pm
I am sorry my choice of semantics is offensive. My intent to understand and learn is genuine. In tears I leave this thread.
please don't leave in tears, your intent to understand is clear. It is very difficult to discuss DV with someone who has experienced it because having come out the other side is a victory after living in utter hell. So buzz words like "wallowing" about the "victim" (actually the survivor) are genuinely painful to hear because they set us back when we thought we made so much progress that anyone could say whatever they wanted and we would no longer give a shit. Well, to my surprise, I do get upset still when victim mentality is brought up.
A desire to understand is welcome, personally, if someone is making an effort to learn, I am glad. Just know certain phrases about survivors are very painful to us even if that was not your intent at all. We have lived so long having people judge us, that it feels like the actual perpetrator is barely part of the conversation, and that sucks. It feels like the way rape was handled years ago (sometimes still is). The victim got put on "trial", what did she do, what did she wear, where was she, was she drunk, what were her sexual habits, etc. When none of, not one bit of that is relevant. So rape victims til this day often don't speak up because it's like being raped all over again. DV is similar to this, however I believe the woman is judged even more and add in kids, financial distress and lack of help or support. I'd give you stats, but I have to go.
Thanks for genuinely trying to understand, come back to the thread. Maybe we can help you understand what was going on that the person you knew was "wallowing" in it. Because it may have appeared that way to outsiders, when she probably had incredible, scary stressors going on.
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