Should I "downsize" my old friend...?

[Ultralight]

I have been struggling for years with a friend of mine from the old neighborhood. Our moms were high school friends, so he and I grew up together.

We were always different from each other, but we were always friends because we grew up in the same small town (238 people) together.

The trajectories of our lives really went differently after high school though.

During high school is was Mr. Popular, great athlete, a hit with the ladies. I was quiet, artistic, and a loner. Somehow we found common ground outside of high school though.

Once we graduated he kept partying -- drinking every night and smoking, things that did not appeal to me. He went to work at dead-end jobs, mostly. I eventually went to college and grad school. He became a corrections officer. I became a researcher. He became a right-wing gun nut. I became a bookish anarchist. He became a racist. I went on to be more and more open-minded in that regard.

Anyway... in the past year or so his life has largely collapsed. His marriage is horribly on the rocks, his alcoholism is killing him. He is morbidly obese, suffers many ongoing maladies like diabetes, knee problems, memory problems, delusions, confabulation (associated with long term alcoholism). He'd taken to calling me at strange hours and going on anti-govt rants or racist tirades. This offended me deeply for two primary reasons: because I think racism is deplorable... and my gf happens to be black.

His gun play -- shooting in town while drunk and such were just frightening.

He also had a long history of trouble at work. The Corrections Officers union had to bail him out. But eventually his boss said: "Quit or be fired." His union could no longer help him because he had simply violated the contract. So he lost his job and had not been able to find another one since the spring. He also had a recent run-in with the law regarding a firearm. Charges were dropped but the lawyer cost his elderly father a pretty penny from his small 401k.

Yesterday, after a leg injury that progressed into an acute infection my friend apparent had two grand mal seizures (no history of seizing). He had been drinking, taking vicotin, and two kind of antibiotics (both intravenously administered and in pills). He may have also been drinking those "energy drinks" with both caffeine and alcohol in them. Those were his drug of choice.

As a result of the seizures he was taken away in an ambulance. The blood work at the ER showed his liver was shutting down. They flew him out to a major hospital in a big city where they were going to have specialists deal with his liver problem (if possible), his withdrawals, and the constellation of health problems he is having.

Part of me wants to reach out to this friend, maybe for old time's sake. Maybe for... I dunno why.

Another part of me wants to leave him be simply because he is so toxic and offensive and immature.

Not sure what to do...

Thoughts?

[ApatheticNoMore]

I would base it entirely on what I felt. If I thought they endangered me? I would not continue it. If I thought they added another misery to my life and it became added to things I hate in my life, nope. If there was something redeeming about it, "well they are fun to reminisce about old times with" or "well I don't' have much to do when they call anyway, I was just sitting around and watching ceiling paint peel ..." maybe. Even then I might steer the conversation "ok enough about black people already ... [changes conversation to how about them red socks ... to the joys of being a minimalist ... to anything]".

The truth is however much he hates blacks I hope he has never done the damage to them that he has done to himself! Because he's so clearly a total and complete self-destruction job on oneself (yes I have seen the type), with most everything he does geared toward total self-destruction (no minor self-sabotage here) that .... Addicted and psychologically tormented, maybe it's PTSD from being a cop, maybe it's a childhood we would sit in shock to hear the horrors of. But I would base the whether to keep contact on my feelings about the situation. I've cut off contact for much less (if I felt I was putting all the effort into a friendship), but then I've kept acquaintances I didn't have that much in common with just if it was nice if they called now and then.

[kib]

... I just read your tagline and it seemed appropriate. This guy appears to be sinking in the cement. There's not much you can do to pull him out, so I guess the question is, can you give a little comfort without being pulled in?

[rodeosweetheart]

To me, if you are asking this question, then yes, it is probably time to let go of the friendship, as it sounds as though you have been in the process of doing so while he has been sliding down into his addictions and ensuing mental illness.

[Teacher Terry]

I don't see how it will work to keep him. He is racist & you have a black girlfriend. YOu can try but I don't think it will work. Such a sad story.

[pinkytoe]

DH had a friend like this left over from high school. We actually sold him a house so there were ties of a sort. He was a highly educated but absolutely psychotic personality which was enhanced by his alcoholism. We were both very frightened by his behavior and I put my foot down about his continual presence so we cut the ties. In reality, he had no interest in DH as a friend but instead was looking for any kind of "support" he could find. Last we heard he was killed in a drug deal gone bad but that was not confirmed and I am always fearful he will return. If this person doesn't really want to change, then he is using you as my husband's friend was using him. I would advise cutting that tie and moving on from the past. Compassion is one thing but allowing someone to continue bad behavior isn't something you need to do if you care about your own life and future.

[Ultralight]

DH had a friend like this left over from high school. We actually sold him a house so there were ties of a sort. He was a highly educated but absolutely psychotic personality which was enhanced by his alcoholism. We were both very frightened by his behavior and I put my foot down about his continual presence so we cut the ties. In reality, he had no interest in DH as a friend but instead was looking for any kind of "support" he could find. Last we heard he was killed in a drug deal gone bad but that was not confirmed and I am always fearful he will return. If this person doesn't really want to change, then he is using you as my husband's friend was using him. I would advise cutting that tie and moving on from the past. Compassion is one thing but allowing someone to continue bad behavior isn't something you need to do if you care about your own life and future.

When we talk on the phone or on the rare occasion in person here really does not ask about me otr my life.

He has not come to visit me in over a decade.

His gun-nut issues are particularly troubling. He pointed a gun at my ex-wife and at me ("just messin' around"). But I about lost my F---ing cool once the gun was put away! I treat any gun as if it were loaded and mind all gun safety rules. So now I stay the heck away from him if he has a gun on him, which is most of the time because he easily got and keeps a CCW permit. This, though off topic, is a BIG reason that I support gun control of a certain type -- like mental health testing before being allowed to own guns and substance abuse testing too. Mental illness and/or substance abuse plus guns equals tragedy waiting to happen.

[Chicken lady]

Anybody who pointed a gun at me would be gone.

[Ultralight]

I know. I know.

The problem is that he is mentally ill. And that if I was like "F-ck you, dude!" then there would be all sorts of trouble for my parents from his family. They are in denial about his whole set of problems. As he sits in ICU for liver failure at a big city hospital his mom, dad, aunt, and even his wife are like: "Wait... he has an alcohol problem?"

They are a family of the most dysfunctional people ever.

Here is the crazy thing: He pointed the gun at me in his parents' living room with both his parents there. He was drunk at the time too.

He thinks he "runs" the town and "protects" the residents as the warlord of "the local militia."

Frightens me really. Delusions and such...

[sweetana3]

I would not be caught within a mile of this individual. You could be the nicest person in the world and do everything for him but he could percieve a problem and it would be "your fault".

PS: Pointing a gun would be the end of any relationship. No second chance. Drunk or not. Family or not. Friend or not.

[kib]

Ok I'm going to take back my advice. There's rude, and then there's dangerous. I don't think F--- you is necessary, maybe more like "Hey dude, gotta go now. Gotta go now. Gotta go now." You can always tell the family, rightly so, that his attitude about race is causing you personal issues.

[SteveinMN]

UA, your compassion is laudable, but this person has made many choices over the years which have drawn him away from you and which now leave him in a position in which no one person is likely to be able to help. Given his past history, the dysfunction in his family and friends, and your current situation, I'd just let go. If you're of a mind to do so, maybe say a prayer to your Higher Power that he gets the help he needs.

[Williamsmith]

When we talk on the phone or on the rare occasion in person here really does not ask about me otr my life.

He has not come to visit me in over a decade.

His gun-nut issues are particularly troubling. He pointed a gun at my ex-wife and at me ("just messin' around"). But I about lost my F---ing cool once the gun was put away! I treat any gun as if it were loaded and mind all gun safety rules. So now I stay the heck away from him if he has a gun on him, which is most of the time because he easily got and keeps a CCW permit. This, though off topic, is a BIG reason that I support gun control of a certain type -- like mental health testing before being allowed to own guns and substance abuse testing too. Mental illness and/or substance abuse plus guns equals tragedy waiting to happen.

A lot of what you said here is true although I would not call him a gun nut. He is a nut with a gun. You realize this and should do everything legally possible to relieve him of his access to guns. If you do nothing then you may be a victim of his reckless treatment of firearms or worse......someone else might be injured or killed as a result of his behavior which in retrospect you will regret your inaction. It's a tough spot. But I would relate it to knowing a person is an abuser an enabling that person to continue abusive behavior just by your silence. Provided all the facts you have laid out are accurate......this guy is a ticking time bomb. If you had reported the gun incident and he had been convicted.......he would not be able to get a concealed carry permit nor probably never be able to own firearms again. Effective laws are already on the books. No new ones needed.

[freshstart]

You realize this and should do everything legally possible to relieve him of his access to guns. If you do nothing then you may be a victim of his reckless treatment of firearms or worse......someone else might be injured or killed as a result of his behavior which in retrospect you will regret your inaction. .

ITA with this, he has become a public safety issue. If you take whatever steps are necessary to have his guns taken away, is it anonymous? I would not hesitate then. If he finds out it was you, IDK which is worse, you are now a giant target and he is mentally ill vs trying to protect others.

As for friendship, you live nowhere near each other, right? Like you won't be running into him at the grocery? I would drop him like a hot potato over the racist and other issues, knowing me I would send one last email explaining why his POV on so many things is offensive. And then nothing. Sending the email is probably not a great idea, I just know I would have to give my reasons and have my view "heard". As ex-BF became more of a bigot, homophobe, "jokingly" racist, far, far right wing and the gun stuff, he had become someone I no longer even liked. It was gradual for years, like I wasn't even sure that what I was hearing was just me be overly sensitive. Then it snowballed, we had very few shared values left and the unshared ones were values I would not accept in a friend, never mind a partner. Ended it over phone and then I wrote the email outlining his disgusting belief system and that I was so appalled, we could not even end as friends. I am 100% certain this email meant nothing to him, so sure is he that he is "always right" but it made me feel better. In hindsight, I should've sent it to myself, if he couldn't concede that "porch monkey" is right up there with really offensive racist shit, he was beyond help and probably laughed at my email.

If the liver thing gets bad and he's dying, I would send a card to him and his parents. If he's gonna make it, try to get rid of those guns somehow and don't contact him ever again (or send the email and then done. Probably do not send email, that's just me, probably a girl thing, lol.) If he contacts you, say what you've said on here, basically you can get by with, "you pointed a gun at me and you're a racist F***, do not call me."

good luck!

[Tammy]

I would not send an email or officially let him know it's over. I would fade away in silence.

If you tell him you're fading it's more dangerous. If you disappear he will be distracted by someone else whom he thinks he can take advantage of.

I would never be in his physical presence again.

[ToomuchStuff]

You say he is MENTALLY ILL AND HAS A GUN. You say he was fired from his job, in part due to gun issues. HAVE YOU REPORTED IT??????
Remember the shooting in Colorado at the theater? What responsibility is it of those around them to report safety issues? Should you be charged if he killed somebody? If they could prove you knew and didn't make a report, would you be prepared for a personal lawsuit?
That in of itself, would be enough to cut ties (did so with a LEO friend, whose Judge father once helped me (at the lowest point in my life on another matter), after he pointed a gun, drunk, at another friend).
You will feel bad, or you can feel miserable being around them, why they spew negativity. (have another person like that we know. He never gets arrested due to his family, even though they wish it. Basically there would be political and newsworthy fallout)

I've dealt with a lot of negativity. I've been at gunpoint four or five times now (loosing track), and had a knife to my throat. Sometimes you have to remember to let those around you fall, so they can find the bottom and rise again.

[Ultralight]

UA, your compassion is laudable, but this person has made many choices over the years which have drawn him away from you and which now leave him in a position in which no one person is likely to be able to help. Given his past history, the dysfunction in his family and friends, and your current situation, I'd just let go. If you're of a mind to do so, maybe say a prayer to your Higher Power that he gets the help he needs.

The only higher power I believe in is The State. And at this point I think they might be stepping in soon...

[Ultralight]

I would not send an email or officially let him know it's over. I would fade away in silence.

If you tell him you're fading it's more dangerous. If you disappear he will be distracted by someone else whom he thinks he can take advantage of.

I would never be in his physical presence again.

This makes a lot of sense.

[freshstart]

I'm changing my answer and going with TooMuchStuff. My only concern is if you are likely the only person in his orbit that he thinks would report him, is he gonna come after you in a drunken, revengeful, violent rage? If so, could you get a restraining order? I think they are harder to get when it's not family or partner related and if the pointing the gun at you happened a while ago, wasn't reported, it may be tough to get one. But, I do agree, he sounds like a risk to others and someone needs to speak up.

[Tammy]

Sometimes the issuing of a restraining order only inflames the person more.

No easy answers.

[freshstart]

that's very true.

[kib]

Maybe this is cowardly, but is there a way to alert authorities about a potential problem anonymously, while just fading out of his life on a personal level? Gotta go, dude, gotta go, see ya round.

[Songbird]

I would not send an email or officially let him know it's over. I would fade away in silence.

If you tell him you're fading it's more dangerous. If you disappear he will be distracted by someone else whom he thinks he can take advantage of.

I would never be in his physical presence again.

My thoughts exactly, just quietly fade away....

[Ultralight]

He is still in a coma at the moment. But I think the fade-away is the most prudent.

[frugalone]

I'll never forget this. Two boys in my grammar school were playing around with a hunting rifle. It was supposedly unloaded. One pointed the gun at the other, "playing war" and the gun went off. The other boy lost his eye.

I have no patience with alcoholics, coming from a family full of them. Guns are terrifying. You really can't help a person who is this far gone. I would quietly remove myself from the equation.



Anybody who pointed a gun at me would be gone.

[Ultralight]

This friend is still in a coma. He has a small bleeding ulcer in his stomach. They had to do endoscopy and when they did they saw swollen veins in his stomach that could burst. This is from all the blood thinners he was on to keep a blood clot in his leg from moving to his lungs. So they took him off the blood thinners and put a stent in his torso (or somewhere) to prevent the blood clot from moving from his leg.

He has to get another surgery on his leg to remove some dead muscle tissue. He is apparently low on things like potassium and they put something in his neck to mainline them in. His blood pressure went low. The gave him a blood transfusion. They can't bring him out of the medically induced coma because he gets agitated from alcohol detox.

He was apparently hallucinating when they first took him into the hospital days and days ago when he had grand mal seizures.

There are a couple other complications he is having but I cannot remember them all.

I am starting to think back on how when we were kids we were friends and had fun going fishing or building tree houses and that stuff...

[freshstart]

I am starting to think back on how when we were kids we were friends and had fun going fishing or building tree houses and that stuff...

he was a raging, likely mentally ill, drunken man who should not have guns
he was also a childhood pal and even though he went off the rails later in life, he once was this innocent boy
he is a very, very sick man with a chance he may not pull through, right?

Say he doesn't. How do you feel reconciling the three types of people he was/is? I assume he's far away, so I don't know if a visit to a comatose childhood pal is even an option, if it is, do you want to stop in and hold his hand for a few minutes, talk to him about how much fun you had together? Or send a card that someone will read to him, send the card as if he is that child, thank him for the friendship and memories, etc. I'm guessing you're the type that an act of kindness, in a time of crisis or severe illness, comes natural to you. If you reach out, tell yourself you are doing it for him, not you, it would be selfless but you may find you end up feeling lighter.

That's for now, if he makes an amazing recovery, stay away! Does he have family or kids you care about? A card to him from you that they read can make that family feel a little better, too. Ease the kids memories of dad is a douche but hey, he had this one friend.

[ApatheticNoMore]

it's possible he might not be the same person if he does pull through (it's certainly hitting bottom, not that I'm a big fan of that AA philosophy - many die before they ever do), and not that I'd stake my life on it or anything like that (iow don't get anywhere near him and guns!).

some of his symptoms are I suspect those of drug addiction (seizures, potassium).

[freshstart]

what's up with the guns? This is the perfect opportunity for the family to go in and take them. If it's taking him this long to get through alcohol withdrawal, and if he's at the bottom as Apathetic said, maybe they can convince him to do rehab

[Ultralight]

what's up with the guns? This is the perfect opportunity for the family to go in and take them. If it's taking him this long to get through alcohol withdrawal, and if he's at the bottom as Apathetic said, maybe they can convince him to do rehab

In the culture/community I am from taking someone's guns is the ultimate betrayal, the most heinous crime, something everyone fears the "gubmint gun grabbers" will do, and is an unforgivable sin that would mean shunning and disdain from all. Nothing is more important that "the right to keep and bear arms" to them.

So this would never happen.

[sweetana3]

Hope you were being sarcastic. Otherwise, what would you like to do about guns and Adam Lanza, the Aurora shooter, kids who have guns, or ....................................who we all agree had some form of significant mental illness or inability to handle the decisions needed when around guns? jad

I had a coworker whose adult son had paranoid schizophrenia and owned a gun. One day he decided the transformers were dangerous and started shooting them. When the police came he got off a few rounds at them and they shot him. Luckily for him, they did not kill him and he hit no one. He is in jail for a very long time. Wish his mom had been able to get rid of the gun before this happened.

[freshstart]

it sure is different here. When we get a nutty patient, he has already consented to guns being removed or safely stored away from the bullets or we will withdraw our services. But we never do until the patient declines, gets horribly confused, keeps a gun on his bedside table and that's when we finally do something. Pisses me off. Do it or don't do it, but do not wait until there is a potential situation and the guy is off his rocker.

[freshstart]

.who we all agree had some form of significant mental illness or inability to handle the decisions needed when around guns?

I had a coworker whose adult son had paranoid schizophrenia and owned a gun. One day he decided the transformers were dangerous and started shooting them. When the police came he got off a few rounds at them and they shot him. Luckily for him, they did not kill him and he hit no one. He is in jail for a very long time. Wish his mom had been able to get rid of the gun before this happened.

this is doubly sad, in that he is a paranoid schizophrenic, probably had no clear understanding of what was happening. In jail, little to none mental health care. I feel bad for him, if only the mom had gotten rid of the gun and got him treatment

[Ultralight]

Hope you were being sarcastic. Otherwise, what would you like to do about guns and Adam Lanza, the Aurora shooter, kids who have guns, or ....................................who we all agree had some form of significant mental illness or inability to handle the decisions needed when around guns? jad

I had a coworker whose adult son had paranoid schizophrenia and owned a gun. One day he decided the transformers were dangerous and started shooting them. When the police came he got off a few rounds at them and they shot him. Luckily for him, they did not kill him and he hit no one. He is in jail for a very long time. Wish his mom had been able to get rid of the gun before this happened.

I think we need to have mental health screenings done on anyone who wants to buy or own a gun.

[freshstart]

I think we need to have mental health screenings done on anyone who wants to buy or own a gun.

+1

I have lost friends, scratch that, acquaintances over this issue, for refusing to have my kid go to a sleepover when I saw the gun cabinet key in the lock every time I went there. I asked to please take the key out, that makes me uncomfortable, they got mad, showed me the ammo boxes right next to the guns which are loaded because no one was getting by him to rape his wife. I had not spoken since asking to take the key out, grabbed DS's stuff and walked to the car. The husband followed me still ranting. Knocks on my window, sigh, "what's your plan when someone comes to rape you? (my son was maybe 9, IDK if he knew what 'rape' meant)" "Two dogs, dial 911 as he comes upstairs, lights off, ex's big bertha in my hand and as he gets close to the top step, I hit him over the head as many times possible and shove him down the stairs. That's a safer plan than sleepovers with unlocked gun closets. Goodnight."

I had no idea how many people own multiple guns until I did home care. I think I am in the minority.

[Ultralight]

+1

I have lost friends, scratch that, acquaintances over this issue, for refusing to have my kid go to a sleepover when I saw the gun cabinet key in the lock every time I went there. I asked to please take the key out, that makes me uncomfortable, they got mad, showed me the ammo boxes right next to the guns which are loaded because no one was getting by him to rape his wife. I had not spoken since asking to take the key out, grabbed DS's stuff and walked to the car. The husband followed me still ranting. Knocks on my window, sigh, "what's your plan when someone comes to rape you? (my son was maybe 9, IDK if he knew what 'rape' meant)" "Two dogs, dial 911 as he comes upstairs, lights off, ex's big bertha in my hand and as he gets close to the top step, I hit him over the head as many times possible and shove him down the stairs. That's a safer plan than sleepovers with unlocked gun closets. Goodnight."

I had no idea how many people own multiple guns until I did home care. I think I am in the minority.

I own two guns. I like going clay target shooting with my BPS! Plinking around with a .22, at some tin cans is fun. I am not anti-gun. I am merely against mentally ill people and/or totally irresponsible morons and/or criminals owning guns. Call me a liberal!

But! People need to be sensible about guns and gun laws.

[freshstart]

I am merely against mentally ill people and/or totally irresponsible morons and/or criminals owning guns. Call me a liberal!

But! People need to be sensible about guns and gun laws.

I hate those headlines, "Responsible gun owner, toddler dead", hmmm I wouldn't use that phrase in your defense in court.

I am fine with them locked up, bullets separate. But then they argue they could not shoot an intrude, which is true but it's also true your 10 yr old might find it and accidentally blow his head off if it's loaded. So IDK. I like the gun owners who care calm and rational, are not up the NRA's butt, and agree to reasonable public safety measures.

In NY, you can be charged, serve time for domestic violence, get out and go buy a gun because DV is not considered a "serious offense". That's the kind of crap that needs to go

[Ultralight]

I hate those headlines, "Responsible gun owner, toddler dead", hmmm I wouldn't use that phrase in your defense in court.

I am fine with them locked up, bullets separate. But then they argue they could not shoot an intrude, which is true but it's also true your 10 yr old might find it and accidentally blow his head off if it's loaded. So IDK. I like the gun owners who care calm and rational, are not up the NRA's butt, and agree to reasonable public safety measures.

In NY, you can be charged, serve time for domestic violence, get out and go buy a gun because DV is not considered a "serious offense". That's the kind of crap that needs to go

1. F--- the NRA.
2. I don't live in a home with children in it. I keep my guns and ammo separate enough anyway. But The shotshells are close enough to use if needed. But here is how I see it. If someone is breaking into my place, they ignore my dog barking, and they ignore my verbal warnings, and they ignore the "click-clack" of my pump shotgun then there is no doubt they are there to do me harm. I put #6 birdshot in there because it does not travel well through walls. No strays!
3. If a guy is convicted of DV, I think that in OH he is not allowed to own guns. But I am not sure if this is a myth or not. I have heard it because guys in my hometown, many of which beat their wives, would freak out about it.

[Williamsmith]

There is obviously not one easy answer. Every situation takes everyone touched by it convinced they must get involved. The sticky point is are you willing to intervene if it increases your risk of becoming uncomfortable or a target for the mentally ill. It is easier to just fade away and hope nothing else happens. But is it the moral, right, responsible thing to do. I don't know.

Have no doubt. The system may fail you and him. Lots of loopholes. The mental health treatment facilities are not always effective. In my neck of the woods, if you enter voluntarily...you keep your guns. And you check out any time you want. That was always a good bargaining chip to play when trying to convince someone to put down their gun and go get help. But it also just put the genie back in the bottle temporarily.

Also if if he does get arrested, lots of defense attorneys and district attorney's like to fast track the case by having the person plead guilty to a charge that doesn't carry a firearm prohibition but requires mental health care. Later if the hospital doesn't fix the problem, they go back to messing with guns.

Had you called when the firearm was pointed at you and I responded......the gun would have been seized, charges filed and an involuntary admittance to mental health may or may not have followed. Because getting a mental health warrant is a tough standard to reach. They have to be a clear danger to themselves or another person and it has to be from a mental defect.....not just criminal behavior. The person likely would have spent some pre trial time in jail unless he could put up serious bond money and would have bond conditions to stay out of contact with victims and witnesses. It would have been a huge wake up call.

Yes, not an easy answer. Even after all attempts are made to intervene, sometimes the person freaks out, gets a gun and shoots some people close to them and then kills himself. It happens.......its life. It sucks if you are friend or family.

[freshstart]

i re-read some beginning posts. As adults, you had a one way street friendship . He is mentally ill and his family was surprised about him being an alcoholic (confabulating and delusions were not a clue???). Probably shocked to hear he is mentally unwell. he got airlifted (IDK, I forgot that part already, lol) to a trauma center. If his liver is really failing and his odds of getting a new one are slim, maybe he can be patched halfway to be able to return home. Where drinking and gun play starts all over again.

I think his trajectory determines when you should think about doing. Is he dying? Maybe send card with talk about being kids, sorry for his problems.....No return address. if he's going along and things improve, I'd do nothing (except hide).

[kally]

changed

[Ultralight]

Where drinking and gun play starts all over again.

freshstart:

Your contributions and insights in this thread have been especially helpful.

The above quote is a worrisome thing. I have thought about that too. Suppose he gets well, dries out, and goes home. His identity is totally wrapped up in being a gun nut and a hard drinkin' guy. He'd have to construct a new identity, a new social circle, a new way of life. Throw in the fact that he needs to find a new job too, or get on disability (depending on the condition of his leg and other health problems). Now that is going to be difficult -- being 36, in your hometown of 238 people and trying to find a new job or adjust to being on disability and finding a new social circle and a new identity.

[Ultralight]

There is obviously not one easy answer. Every situation takes everyone touched by it convinced they must get involved. The sticky point is are you willing to intervene if it increases your risk of becoming uncomfortable or a target for the mentally ill. It is easier to just fade away and hope nothing else happens. But is it the moral, right, responsible thing to do. I don't know.

Have no doubt. The system may fail you and him. Lots of loopholes. The mental health treatment facilities are not always effective. In my neck of the woods, if you enter voluntarily...you keep your guns. And you check out any time you want. That was always a good bargaining chip to play when trying to convince someone to put down their gun and go get help. But it also just put the genie back in the bottle temporarily.

Also if if he does get arrested, lots of defense attorneys and district attorney's like to fast track the case by having the person plead guilty to a charge that doesn't carry a firearm prohibition but requires mental health care. Later if the hospital doesn't fix the problem, they go back to messing with guns.

Had you called when the firearm was pointed at you and I responded......the gun would have been seized, charges filed and an involuntary admittance to mental health may or may not have followed. Because getting a mental health warrant is a tough standard to reach. They have to be a clear danger to themselves or another person and it has to be from a mental defect.....not just criminal behavior. The person likely would have spent some pre trial time in jail unless he could put up serious bond money and would have bond conditions to stay out of contact with victims and witnesses. It would have been a huge wake up call.

Yes, not an easy answer. Even after all attempts are made to intervene, sometimes the person freaks out, gets a gun and shoots some people close to them and then kills himself. It happens.......its life. It sucks if you are friend or family.

There are a lot of frightening scenarios. What I hope is that, once dried out, he can regain some sanity.

[Float On]

Maybe send card with talk about being kids, sorry for his problems.....No return address. if he's going along and things improve, I'd do nothing (except hide).

This is as far as I'd go.
And if he passes away from this (good likelihood) a simple card to the parents "sorry for your loss".

Now, if you later hear...he healed and changed his life and would like to apologize to anyone he ever offended. Then, you could go receive an apology and see if he really is changed. Stranger things have happened.

[Ultralight]

And if he passes away from this (good likelihood)...

Apparently he came out of the coma and is awake and talking. So who knows, maybe he is past the worst of it and is likely to survive. But people with addictions -- especially the bad ones like alcohol just never seem to be able to kick.

This has always been very frightening to me, which is why I am teetotal or sXe, or what-have-you.

But I also have the moments where I just cannot understand what is going on in the mind of an addict, like an alcoholic or a pill head. Like: "How can you let this happen?" or "Why did you even start down this path?"

[freshstart]

But I also have the moments where I just cannot understand what is going on in the mind of an addict, like an alcoholic or a pill head. Like: "How can you let this happen?" or "Why did you even start down this path?"

it's hard to understand and the only way I do is if I stick to thinking alcoholism is a disease. A disease some people can control and many who cannot. If I start thinking, why do you keep doing this? I lose the ability to be empathetic, I blame or judge them, want to yell 'you just came out of a very good rehab 2 days ago and you are drunk already?' I am able to deal with these people at work just fine, family or friends? I struggle, I get angry, especially if they have kids.

I hope his progress is very slow medically so he can stay dry quite a long time, but most hospitals can dry you out yet not have the facilities for a true rehab. So I hope he goes to rehab and really opens his eyes. It sounds like he has used quite a few of his nine lives.

I cannot imagine a town of 238, hard to have a private life there, I would imagine.

ITA with Float On.

[Ultralight]

it's hard to understand and the only way I do is if I stick to thinking alcoholism is a disease. A disease some people can control and many who cannot. If I start thinking, why do you keep doing this? I lose the ability to be empathetic, I blame or judge them, want to yell 'you just came out of a very good rehab 2 days ago and you are drunk already?' I am able to deal with these people at work just fine, family or friends? I struggle, I get angry, especially if they have kids.

I hope his progress is very slow medically so he can stay dry quite a long time, but most hospitals can dry you out yet not have the facilities for a true rehab. So I hope he goes to rehab and really opens his eyes. It sounds like he has used quite a few of his nine lives.

I cannot imagine a town of 238, hard to have a private life there, I would imagine.

ITA with Float On.

In "238town" he did not have much of a private life. Some folks kept right on drinking with him.

Other folks would judge him and come down on him for drinking. So he took to drinking alone a lot. He'd drive to a nearby town, buy a bunch of brews, and then get drunk on the way home or park on the outskirts of town and drink. People's find a mountain empty cans here and there and know it was him drinking alone. But much of his family was in denial, not drinking with him much but not calling him out much either.

[organictex]

I remember Madonna stated, after she was accused of leaving her friends behind, that
anyone worth bringing along she did. I also had to leave a good friend behind as he was
racist as well. When he asked me if I was studying "Ebonics" in college, that was the last
straw...

[Ultralight]

The old friend is making a full recovery. Now as for rehab... who knows if he will go...

[freshstart]

good for him, now you don't have to decide about sending a card with no return address on it.

this "friendship" is pointless and possibly dangerous, you can avoid him and feel no guilt. But if I was on the fence about it, not going to rehab would be the deal breaker

[Cypress]

I admire your years of loyalty to this person. You sound very considerate and thoughtful about what the consequences may be. It's no fun when family is upset with you. But, it sounds like you are asking for permission to move on from your friends here. In the end, do what is best for you.

If people generally are in denial about his situation, well, they can do that. It sounds like you prefer authentic relationships in general. It sounds like this guy uses you and that's all. Relationships are two ways. In this one, you keep giving but don't get much but a hard time. Do what is best for you.

[freshstart]

Somehow I missed he was only 36, wow. And you live far away, is that right?

Make conditions for him in your head, like, if he successfully competes rehab and calls me, I will listen for 10 mins and then say you have to end the call.

No rehab or he gets out and drinks? plan ahead for how you will handle him in this state, ignore his calls, take a call and say we cannot be friends when you are drinking, take a call and say best of luck but I'm done here (assuming you are not within shooting distance). It is not "mean" to choose these options with a roaring drunk, being there for him too much, you can become co-dependent and ultimately, that hurts you both.

if he does rehab and stays sober, it is still ok to fade away. You want a simple, serene life, right? Having this guy as your friend sober or not, does not sound like he will add to you sense of serenity.

[Williamsmith]

If you plan to be in his presence again....would you consider a concealed carry permit? Given the history, seems prudent. You do realize you have already been a victim of felony assault and a nats eyelash from being dead.

[freshstart]

if you have to conceal carry a gun to have lunch with your BFF, you need new BFFs, not a gun

[Williamsmith]

if you have to conceal carry a gun to have lunch with your BFF, you need new BFFs, not a gun

Agreed. But if you can't seem to separate yourself from your alcoholic mentally ill gun nut BFF....then you need a gun or at least maybe a ballistic vest and paid funeral expenses.

[freshstart]

very true

I'm just banking on he does not have UA's address

[Ultralight]

So the old friend, after bouncing back and forth from a hospital to a rehab center (for his leg surgery, not his drinking problem) got sent home a few days ago.

He is apparently on the mend physically.

My dad went to visit him when he was still in the rehab facility for his leg. My friend's wife was there also.

My dad said: "You need to go to rehab."

My friend looked at him quizzically...

My dad said: "For alcohol. You need to make sure you stay clean."

I guess my old friend just shrugged his shoulders. His wife also said nothing.

My dad ran into my friends oldest brother at the grocery. My dad asked: "When is his first day in rehab for alcohol."

The bother said: "There is no first day. There are no plans for him to go to rehab."

The whole family talked about sending him to rehab while the dude was in a coma! Now? No mention of it.

Denial. Enabling. Sweeping under the rug.

Apparently my old friend has a nurse coming to his house daily to change his bandages and take care of him. I have no idea how they can afford this as he is unemployed and has been since the spring. His wife does not make much money. His family does not have much money either.

[Float On]

I have no idea how they can afford this as he is unemployed and has been since the spring. His wife does not make much money. His family does not have much money either.

This may be why there is no talk of sending him to rehab. Rehab for alcohol is expensive in most cases.

[Ultralight]

Well, the quote I heard from his wife was:

"I don't care if I have to pay $25 a month for the rest of my life. I am sending him to rehab!"

The wife does have insurance. And wouldn't Obamacare pay for it? I dunno... but I would guess it is possible.

My dad apparently suggested AA too, which is not costly. Again: Shoulders merely shrugged.

[kib]

... it's a lot easier to say what other people should do when they're not in the room, especially if that happens to be a crazy person with a love of guns. From what you're saying, it sounds possible the family never mentioned the idea directly. You've never had/heard that blank-out panic?

"Martha says you think I'm a drunk."

(Oh, no, I don't want to be here, that sounds so bad, they'll be so mad, this shouldn't be on me...) "I... er ... no, no, we, uh, I um ... never said that."

(Ok good, you denied it, now let's never mention this again. I win.)

Or, in this case,

Your Dad, the fall guy: get help.
Wife:

Silence = l'm not part of this. which keeps her "golden" and allows him the same basic response: wife doesn't think I need help, I win, game over.

>8)

[Ultralight]

... it's a lot easier to say what other people should do when they're not in the room, especially if that happens to be a crazy person with a love of guns. From what you're saying, it sounds possible the family never mentioned the idea directly. You've never had/heard that blank-out panic?

"Martha says you think I'm a drunk."

(Oh, no, I don't want to be here, that sounds so bad, they'll be so mad, this shouldn't be on me...) "I... er ... no, no, we, uh, I um ... never said that."

(Ok good, you denied it, now let's never mention this again. I win.)

Or, in this case,

Your Dad, the fall guy: get help.
Wife:

Silence = l'm not part of this. which keeps her "golden" and allows him the same basic response: wife doesn't think I need help, I win, game over.

>8)

All too true. haha

But my dad is probably less The Fall Guy and more the "I don't give a F---!"-guy who is so old and grizzled that he'll say whatever he thinks. haha

My fam is different. I never saw my mom drink more than the tiniest sip of wine in church. My dad would drink half a 12 ounce bottle of ale once a week. He gave me a sip once as a little kid. My mom was not happy! But I was so grossed out by it that she calmed down and my dad laughed.

Very little drinking in my nuclear family/our house growing up.

My old friend's family was lots of drinking with his older brothers and his younger sister.

[Teacher Terry]

Often time you can find rehabs that having funding to take people without $. I know a few people that did this. ACA also now pays.

[Ultralight]

Often time you can find rehabs that having funding to take people without $. I know a few people that did this. ACA also now pays.

Good info to know. Unfortunately I think it is more denial than anything else.

But... Obamacare is something that the old friend railed against in part of his racist tirades. So I wonder if that is part of it: "I ain't doin' no socialist Obamacare rehab!"

[freshstart]

he must have some sort of insurance as physical rehab is not free. The nurse is probably of the VNA sort who does come in, do the dressings for a while at no cost assuming he has insurance or Medicaid. It is usually of short duration, they try to teach a family member to do it. She is unlikely to get involved in his alcohol abuse, they do have social workers but ours carried a caseload of up to 100 patients in traditional home care. They only see those who have a financial crisis or really needs emotional support, like a family trying to get a patient to go to rehab. His family doesn't even want that so I suspect they will turn the social worker down. If he has strong believes about Obamacare, he probably is not a fan of social workers.

what are you planning to do? I hope it's stay away!

[Ultralight]

I have not spoken to him since the day before he was hospitalized. He was totally hammered and we spoke only for a minute. He basically just said: "I am too tired. Gotta go."

Since then, no communication with him, only with his sister.

My plan is to avoid contact.

I have seen so many friends and family members have their lives messed up by alcohol. I am just sick of it.

And I am sick of his racism and insanity.

[freshstart]

My plan is to avoid contact.

I have seen so many friends and family members have their lives messed up by alcohol. I am just sick of it.

And I am sick of his racism and insanity.

Good. Those are all good reasons, he made his bed.....

[Ultralight]

He used to call me about twice a week, totally sloshed (but pretending not to be). He has not attempted to call me since he came out of the coma.

[Ultralight]

he must have some sort of insurance as physical rehab is not free. The nurse is probably of the VNA sort who does come in, do the dressings for a while at no cost assuming he has insurance or Medicaid. It is usually of short duration, they try to teach a family member to do it.

Yup, this sounds like what he has. And social workers have a bad rap in my old neighborhood.

People think they are coming in to condemn their houses and take their kids away.

[freshstart]

it's like that here, as well, people think their children will be taken then and there or that they have the magical powers to stick them in a nursing home.

maybe his coma gave him swiss cheese brain and he will forget your number or better yet, that you even exist, lol.

[Ultralight]

So far there has been no word from my the guy. He sister called once a week or two ago to tell me he was home from the hospital.

I am hoping this will all fade. But I am doubtful it will.

[Ultralight]

Welp... I got a phone call about 10:15am today. I thought it was my girlfriend calling.

Nope.

It was the old friend... :(

Sometimes I wish I had caller ID.


Anyway, he was acting sort of drunk. But swears he has not drank since the whole fiasco with his health started. I basically just told him what he wanted to hear. He kept downplaying his alcoholism by saying things like: "I am strong enough to deal with it or not deal with it myself" and "I just like to party."

[freshstart]

drunk at 10 am? I feel bad for his kids. Can you give him your cell number instead then you will know it's him?

[catherine]

Sometimes I wish I had caller ID.


Anyway, he was acting sort of drunk. But swears he has not drank since the whole fiasco with his health started. I basically just told him what he wanted to hear. He kept downplaying his alcoholism by saying things like: "I am strong enough to deal with it or not deal with it myself" and "I just like to party."

When my brother calls me drunk I just tell him that I love him but I'm too busy to talk. By now he knows that's code for "call me when you're sober."

I'm not a telephone talker to begin with and I'm definitely not inclined to torture myself listening to the narcissistic ramblings of a drunk.

[ToomuchStuff]

Don't tell him what he wants to hear. That just shows him your fine with it. You would be better off if he was ticked off by your opinions and didn't want to talk to you.

[Ultralight]

drunk at 10 am? I feel bad for his kids. Can you give him your cell number instead then you will know it's him?

He does not have kids. No viable sperm. Apparently profound alcoholism ruins one's swimmers. Seriously.

I don't have a cell phone, just an old home phone.

[Ultralight]

When my brother calls me drunk I just tell him that I love him but I'm too busy to talk. By now he knows that's code for "call me when you're sober."

I'm not a telephone talker to begin with and I'm definitely not inclined to torture myself listening to the narcissistic ramblings of a drunk.

I might do that. I am also just going to stop answering the phone and let it go to the answering machine.

[Ultralight]

Don't tell him what he wants to hear. That just shows him your fine with it. You would be better off if he was ticked off by your opinions and didn't want to talk to you.

That is an interesting point. My dad straight-up told him: "Get into some kind of treatment for your alcoholism!"

Maybe I will do the same. That might turn him off from wanting to talk to me.

[Ultralight]

The dude, after some months or more is back on the bottle. And big time!

Here apparently got drunk, drunk his car off the road, tore up a front tire, cracked a window, and then went home and called the sheriff while he was still sitting in his car hammered with empty 4 Loco cans in the back seat. He said someone had vandalized his car!

The deputy came out and somehow his brother came over and talked the deputy away. So no report filed.

His family tried an intervention yesterday and took away his car keys and his guns. He freaked out majorly -- so they gave him his guns back.

[Teacher Terry]

It is too bad he did not get to suffer the consequences of his actions with the law. Giving his guns back was a horrible idea. Ugh!

[Ultralight]

It is too bad he did not get to suffer the consequences of his actions with the law. Giving his guns back was a horrible idea. Ugh!

In the small town area we're from the cops are no real good. They pulled his drunk butt over another time but only gave him a speeding ticket. He was drunk as a skunk though. He played high school football with the cops, so they did not want to DUI him. He was a corrections officer for about 8 years too, so they did not want one of their own getting a DUI.

[Chicken lady]

Sorry. I’ve got an uncle like that. His professional contacts protect him just enough to let him kill himself slowly. Family dries him out, he gets back on his feet and decides he’s ok and can drink again, and then he loses another wife and another house. Heard he got married again on Friday.

[Ultralight]

Sorry. I’ve got an uncle like that. His professional contacts protect him just enough to let him kill himself slowly. Family dries him out, he gets back on his feet and decides he’s ok and can drink again, and then he loses another wife and another house. Heard he got married again on Friday.

Wow... what are these women thinking?!

[Ultralight]

A little more of an update on this old friend of mine.

Apparently his family gave his keys back to him.

And... I guess that during the intervention in which they took away his guns and keys he freaked out and put a pistol in his mouth threatening to kill himself.

Keep in mind: After this they promptly gave his guns back to him. And now have given his keys back to him too.

[Chicken lady]

I don’t suppose you can call a psych hold on him?

the first “woman” was thinking “as soon as I turn 18 I can marry this guy and escape my horrible family.” Lasted almost 8 years and one child. The rest were going to be his salvation?

[ApatheticNoMore]

Wow... what are these women thinking?!

Yea I know sounds like so not a catch. I mean I can understand marrying someone with a lot of flaws but those women really are better off alone. Is he stunningly handsome (even then sleep with him, don't marry him :~)), rich? I mean what does he have that even makes him seem like a good choice ... or does he meet them all at 12 step meetings and they are off using/drinking too (I know 12 steps helps some people stay sober but there are a lot of people that will use again there too).

[Chicken lady]

Current (brand new) wife is an employee. He seems to find a lot that just want to sleep with him too, he’s not bad looking and appears to have money, and he is very, very charming.

[Ultralight]

Welp... the old friend finally got arrested -- Disorderly Conduct and Weapons While Intoxicated. Would that last one effect a CCW license?

[Ultralight]

This is him, gun in hand.

2294

[Zoe Girl]

Well moving on was probably a really good choice!

[Ultralight]

Well moving on was probably a really good choice!


My mind is absolutely boggled. He is standing there, talking on the phone, pointing a gun across the street. Broad daylight. Neighbors watching, some taking pictures or recording. Dude is drunk as a skunk.

How the hell did any judge see this and think "Better reduce the charges so he can keep his CCW!"?

[Zoe Girl]

What is a CCW license? is he really out of jail? I wouldn't want him in my neighborhood or knowing where I lived.

[Tammy]

Concealed carry permit

[Ultralight]

What is a CCW license? is he really out of jail? I wouldn't want him in my neighborhood or knowing where I lived.

He was out in a day.

[SteveinMN]

Can't mess with the Second...>8)

[Tybee]

i'd say yes, judging from the photo, you should downsize immediately.

[Ultralight]

I briefly talked to the old friend today. Apparently he was charged and convicted with Weapons While Intoxicated. The authorities took his guns. Well, according to him, they only took some of them. His family evacuated some of the firearms before they could seized by the "gun grabbers."

The judge did not take his CCW though. And according to my old friend, he needs a lawyer to petition the court to get his guns returned.

So, yeah. Wow.

[Alan]

I briefly talked to the old friend today. Apparently he was charged and convicted with Weapons While Intoxicated. The authorities took his guns. Well, according to him, they only took some of them. His family evacuated some of the firearms before they could seized by the "gun grabbers."

The judge did not take his CCW though. And according to my old friend, he needs a lawyer to petition the court to get his guns returned.

So, yeah. Wow.
The court does not revoke a CCW permit, in Ohio the permit is granted and revoked by the county sheriff.

Under Ohio Revised Code:

2923.128 Suspension and revocation of license.

(A)(1)(a) If a licensee holding a valid concealed handgun license is arrested for or otherwise charged with an offense described in division (D)(1)(d) of section 2923.125 (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.125) of the Revised Code or with a violation of section 2923.15 (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.15) of the Revised Code or becomes subject to a temporary protection order or to a protection order issued by a court of another state that is substantially equivalent to a temporary protection order, the sheriff who issued the license shall suspend it and shall comply with division (A)(3) of this section upon becoming aware of the arrest, charge, or protection order. Upon suspending the license, the sheriff also shall comply with division (H) of section 2923.125 (http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.125) of the Revised Code.(b) A suspension under division (A)(1)(a) of this section shall be considered as beginning on the date that the licensee is arrested for or otherwise charged with an offense described in that division or on the date the appropriate court issued the protection order described in that division, irrespective of when the sheriff notifies the licensee under division (A)(3) of this section. The suspension shall end on the date on which the charges are dismissed or the licensee is found not guilty of the offense described in division (A)(1)(a) of this section or, subject to division (B) of this section, on the date the appropriate court terminates the protection order described in that division. If the suspension so ends, the sheriff shall return the license or temporary emergency license to the licensee.


2923.15 Using weapons while intoxicated.

(A) No person, while under the influence of alcohol or any drug of abuse, shall carry or use any firearm or dangerous ordnance. (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of using weapons while intoxicated, a misdemeanor of the first degree. Effective Date: 01-01-1974.
So, it appears your several reports of your friend maintaining a valid Ohio CCW permit does not jibe with Ohio law.

[Ultralight]

Welp, yesterday when I went back for a different friend's dad's funeral showing I ended up in a rather long conversation my drunken, crazy friend too. And wow, was he ever drunk and crazy!

Here are the highlights:

-He asked my ladyfriend repeatedly to hook him up with her friends so we all could go on a double date
-He asked me, while maybe just out of earshot of her if she "s---- d---?" (I said: "This is an inappropriate question I will not answer."
-He asked me, again maybe just out of earshot of her if she "takes it up the a--?" (Again, I said: "This is inappropriate and I will not answer").
-He told me he called his ex-wife on the phone and shouted at her that she was a "f------ wh-re!"
-Then a minute later he told me "I still love her with all my heart, I love her to death"
-He was drunk as a skunk and riding a mini-bike (like a miniaturized motorcycle) around town; keep in mind he is about 6 feet tall and weighs probably 390 lbs.
-He also tried to tell me that his grandfather used to stomp on his head while he was sleeping (which sounds totally crazy because I knew his grandfather and he was by all indications and honest, honorable, and kind man who treated me incredibly well and who I looked up to)
-He also told me that when he last got arrested for weapons while intoxicated he had actually put a pistol into the guy's mouth who had pulled a knife on him
-He also told me he has a woman living with him who does not work and who abandoned her three small children (and as my dad said: Any woman who abandons her children is "really screwed up")

I could go on. But these are sufficient highlights.

He obviously has that alcoholic problem known as "confabulation." Conversing with him was like talking to a disturbed mental patient. He also went on some tirades about how he does not care if he lives or dies.

My dad said this of him: "We are watching him commit suicide in somewhat slow motion."

My troubled hometown went from being blue collar and white trashy when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s to being totally rachet, ghetto, and downright dark and depressing.

[SteveinMN]

Not sure what the last paragraph has to do with the ones before it. But this guy sounds like he's one ticked-off away from being on the evening news for his part in "another senseless massacre". Smart to downsize him, UL.

[Ultralight]

So get this: The latest in this saga.

Yesterday around noon my old friend, we'll call "Condor" and a neighbor, we'll call "Bart" decided to take a drive from my unincorporated hometown (pop. 238) to a nearby small city (pop. 8,000) to go to the store and get some alcoholic beverages. Condor was driving but he was already drunk. So Bart, who was sober insisted Condor pull over and let him drive. Condor did so, but very angrily, apparently shouting: "I kin drive mah own damn car!"

Anyway, Bart drives home, then then proceeds to drink on his porch (a much more responsible choice that drunk driving). But Condor gets out of the passenger side, pounds a couple 4-Locos (something like a workin' man's speedball as they contain both a downer and an upper -- alcohol and caffeine).

Condor jumps in the drivers' side and again shouts: "I kin drive mah own damn car!"

He is totally shmammered at this point. So he speeds away to go just outside town to his "drinkin' lone" spot. But on the way he drills a huge rock. It was one of those rock people put on the corner of their property near roads to prevent drivers from cutting into the edge of their yard.

The rock was big enough to possibly total the car. We're not sure if it is totaled or just close to it.

But the car is stuck on the rock and won't drive.

Condor calls his older brother who lives down the street and his nephew to help dislodge the car from the rock and to push the car a few blocks home. They do so.

But then Condor's bother yells at and chews out Condor for driving drunk. There is a big commotion with some pushing and cussing. The cops get called. Condor's brother talks the cops out of arresting Condor -- even though Condor's is on probation for a drunk w/ weapons charge.

After the cops leave Condor goes crazy again with yelling and threatening. Condor's brother and dad come out to try to calm him down. It does not work. A neighbor again calls the cops.

The cops come back and arrest Condor on his porch. Condor hurls horrible insults at his brother and his elderly father. Apparently his father had some kind of emotional breakdown to watch his son get arrested and have all those insults zinged at him. Condor's dad is a former cop.

The cops throw Condor in the drunk tank until he breathes clean on the breathalyzer. But they don't charge him with anything.

Then when he gets home Condor gets a restraining order delivered to him saying he is not allowed within 25 feet of one of the neighbors he is feuding with.

Condor seems to be committing suicide in slow motion and just acting crazy.

[Ultralight]

Here is my question:

Condor still has a job, a crappy factory job. Without the car he can't get there. He could technically ride a bike, but he won't.

So his father and mother will drive him to work. My mother also said she will drive him to work.

I suggested to her that she not drive him to work and that she suggest to his parents not to drive him to work. My feeling is that Condor's last chance is to hit rock bottom and then get sober.

But if they keep floating him by driving him to work then he can keep living the way he is.

Thoughts?

[SteveinMN]

Thoughts?
I think Condor has gotten as far as he has because he's surrounded by enablers. Too many people who excuse his behavior, talking the cops out of hauling him in when he's threatening others, driving him around when -- as a grown man -- he could get there himself if he had to. Based on what I read here, Condor has learned (and had many times reinforced) that even serious actions don't usually have significant consequences. So, yeah, why change?

My prediction is that Condor's life as he knows it will end one of three ways: finally hauled into the judicial system and imprisoned for injuring someone severely (or killing them, by gun/vehicle/outsized rage); by being shot while fumbling his own gun or horsing around with a "friend" while drunk; or Pauline conversion (extremely unlikely but gotta throw it in there). Maybe it's my white-bread upbringing but trips in the back of a police car and restraining orders would serve as my notice that I've got a problem. Condor seems impervious to that so far. And, as we're all discovering nowadays, just when you think there's a bottom, creative people find whole new depths of low to go. So I can only hope that he doesn't take anyone else down before he discovers his "rock bottom". Fatalist, maybe. But this situation has gone on far too long IMHO.

[catherine]

There's a difference between enabling and supporting, so I guess I would say that in an ideal world, if Condor has not had his come-to-Jesus moment so far, his parents should NOT drive him to work.

If he agrees to go to treatment (in- or out-patient rehab, AA, etc.) his parents can support his sobriety by driving him. Problem is, he could make them believe he is sober and getting treatment, but he could still be drinking. So they drive him under the guise of support, but they are really enabling him because he's drinking on the sly.

If they were strong enough, they could tell him that they'll start driving him to work once he's completed 90 days/90 AA meetings. That would give him time to chew on his behavior while he's hitchhiking or Uber-ing to work.

[SteveinMN]

catherine, your response was much better than mine. Thank you.

[Ultralight]

There's a difference between enabling and supporting, so I guess I would say that in an ideal world, if Condor has not had his come-to-Jesus moment so far, his parents should NOT drive him to work.

If he agrees to go to treatment (in- or out-patient rehab, AA, etc.) his parents can support his sobriety by driving him. Problem is, he could make them believe he is sober and getting treatment, but he could still be drinking. So they drive him under the guise of support, but they are really enabling him because he's drinking on the sly.

If they were strong enough, they could tell him that they'll start driving him to work once he's completed 90 days/90 AA meetings. That would give him time to chew on his behavior while he's hitchhiking or Uber-ing to work.


Some good insights here.

I strongly suspect that all the enablers will keep enabling. He calls me from time to time, schmit-faced and belligerent. He says utterly crazy things too -- anti-gubmint stuff, racist stuff, and so on. He said "UL, you are basically an N----- now because you F----- so many black B------!" the last time he called me. I was like: "Dude. You can't say that crap to me. It is crazy talk."

[Ultralight]

My prediction is that Condor's life as he knows it will end one of three ways: finally hauled into the judicial system and imprisoned for injuring someone severely (or killing them, by gun/vehicle/outsized rage); by being shot while fumbling his own gun or horsing around with a "friend" while drunk; or Pauline conversion (extremely unlikely but gotta throw it in there).

You know, Steve, I think your predictions are probably going to be spot-on.

The Pauline Conversion seems so unlikely because he is at the point in his alcoholism that he is insane, delusional, and out of touch with reality.


Maybe it's my white-bread upbringing but trips in the back of a police car and restraining orders would serve as my notice that I've got a problem. Condor seems impervious to that so far. And, as we're all discovering nowadays, just when you think there's a bottom, creative people find whole new depths of low to go. So I can only hope that he doesn't take anyone else down before he discovers his "rock bottom". Fatalist, maybe. But this situation has gone on far too long IMHO.

You're right. Rock bottom is different for different people. I keep thinking: That big rock he drilled with his car could have been a child, an eldery person, or someone's pet dog. Condor is just dangerous. He is literally a menace to his neighbors. No wonder a couple of them put on the restraining orders.

[Ultralight]

Apparently Condor is now running around his house at all hours yelling about how "Hajis" and "n-ggers" are trying to take over "his" town and invade his home. Of course, he is totally blitzed when he does this, which is nightly.

And the unemployed/under-employed heroin junkies that live with him are complaining to neighbors that they can't sleep at night because Condor stays up all night acting wacky and trying to keep them in his sight at all times.

[Williamsmith]

Apparently Condor is now running around his house at all hours yelling about how "Hajis" and "n-ggers" are trying to take over "his" town and invade his home. Of course, he is totally blitzed when he does this, which is nightly.

And the unemployed/under-employed heroin junkies that live with him are complaining to neighbors that they can't sleep at night because Condor stays up all night acting wacky and trying to keep them in his sight at all times.

How would you like to make a living dealing with Condor types every day, just change the names and pretty much keep the circumstances? Then when you can’t make things all better in fifteen minutes what it took Condor a lifetime to screw up, people say you are part of the problem. I routinely announced upon my arrival that I was a temporary fix for a permanent problem. It’s a depressing situation to be forced to deal with on a regular basis. He will flame out some day, there will be a sad obituary in the paper and life will go on.

[iris lilies]

How would you like to make a living dealing with Condor types every day, just change the names and pretty much keep the circumstances? Then when you can’t make things all better in fifteen minutes what it took Condor a lifetime to screw up, people say you are part of the problem. I routinely announced upon my arrival that I was a temporary fix for a permanent problem. It’s a depressing situation to be forced to deal with on a regular basis. He will flame out some day, there will be a sad obituary in the paper and life will go on.

yes, let us hope he doesnt injure someone else in that flame out. A drunk drive where his car meets a tree head on would be a good way to go out.

[Ultralight]

How would you like to make a living dealing with Condor types every day, just change the names and pretty much keep the circumstances? Then when you can’t make things all better in fifteen minutes what it took Condor a lifetime to screw up, people say you are part of the problem. I routinely announced upon my arrival that I was a temporary fix for a permanent problem. It’s a depressing situation to be forced to deal with on a regular basis. He will flame out some day, there will be a sad obituary in the paper and life will go on.

One of my colleagues in another department was a cop for several years.

He said it was rather thankless.

[catherine]

One of my colleagues in another department was a cop for several years.

He said it was rather thankless.

I can't imagine how it doesn't destroy your faith in humanity. WS, I always appreciate your perspective, because it appears that you have remain balanced throughout, and learned from your experiences rather than being defeated by them.

[Ultralight]

I can't imagine how it doesn't destroy your faith in humanity. WS, I always appreciate your perspective, because it appears that you have remain balanced throughout, and learned from your experiences rather than being defeated by them.

If you look closely you can find things that will destroy your faith in humanity anywhere and everywhere. Trust me. This is what I do!

[Ultralight]

My friend has gotten so much worse. I saw him last Sunday when I visited the old neighborhood.

Jeeeez... he looked like death. I think he is not just addicted to alcohol, but I think he is also addicted to opioids. He looked like a junkie and he hangs around a lot of junkies. He is obese, very obese. But also his legs are very, very swollen with fluid. It is strange-looking.

He was spontaneously crying about things and saying "You are gonna bury me, Jake. You are gonna bury me!"

He said it over and over. Creepy.

[Tammy]

Ultralite - we have a friend who went down that path this last year. He has cut off contact with us, probably due to embarrassment. It's very sad.

[Ultralight]

Ultralite - we have a friend who went down that path this last year. He has cut off contact with us, probably due to embarrassment. It's very sad.

I think he wants to die.

[SteveinMN]

I think he wants to die.
No "thinking" about it. He's just doing it the slow painful way. Edema is serious stuff. So are opioids. I feel sorry for him that he feels its his only path out...

[Ultralight]

No "thinking" about it. He's just doing it the slow painful way. Edema is serious stuff. So are opioids. I feel sorry for him that he feels its his only path out...

It might be the better of many options as he is suffering and making his parents and relatives and friends suffer too.

[catherine]

I hate addiction.

It's such a thief of kind hearts.