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pcooley
9-25-15, 9:48am
As usual, this is more of just a venting, but it is so bizarre to me, that I wonder if other parents are dealing with kids like this.

We have a wonderful, remarkable 15 year old daughter, but she doesn't seem to have any sense of financial proportion.

Her goal in life is to work for the foreign service. She has always been extremely hard working, responsible, and self-directed.

She found out about an all expenses paid international leadership camp in New York State - Camp Rising Sun - and went there this summer. Now she has friends from all over the world, which is great. She's been to Germany on an exchange program with her school. She is applying to the United World College this fall and hopes to spend her junior and senior year of high school in Italy, though she's also mentioned willingness to go to the Indian, German, or Norwegian campuses. In general, we think that's great, and we will do what we can to help that happen.

Lately though, maybe because she's already done all this traveling, she's been asking/announcing travel plans. Her only item on her birthday list, other than the complete ee cummings, is a trip to California to visit friends. She's been Skypeing with a friend in Israel, and keeps saying to me "Camp Rising Sun's world reunion is in Israel next year … I'm just saying." This morning, she told me that her friend in Michigan wants her to come up for a few days after Christmas, and her mother wants to talk to me about it.

It's so patently ridiculous - combined with the fact that I have a bad flu right now and didn't sleep last night - that I blew up at her. Where does she think the money is going to come from to go to Michigan?! Then I told her that I'm already concerned about coming up with the money to fly her to Europe if she gets into the United World College, which is true, but it doesn't seem like the kind of thing you should tell your child. I want her to keep pursuing her educational goals, but she knows we don't have money laying around to send her out to California or up to Michigan just to visit friends. We only have about $1400 in the college fund for both her and her brother. If anything, if we had extra money, we should be pumping it into there.

I don't want to dampen her enthusiasm for travel or for her friendships, but I cannot even fathom where she is getting the idea that the level of travel she is thinking about right now is something you can do without a second thought. (And that's above and beyond the ridiculousness of turning a 15 year old girl loose on California.)

I thought I would come back and add that one of the things that I think is wonderful about my daughter is that she feels things are possible and generally, somehow miraculously, she is able to pull them off. When I was her age, (and even now to tell the truth), if I had heard about a program where I would be able to study in Europe in high school, I would have automatically assumed it would be impossible for me to go. I have no doubt that my daughter, being who she is, can pull it off. If she does, there are scholarships associated with the United World College that will give her a free ride to a great number of colleges in the United States, so it will be cheaper for her and for us in the long run.

merince
9-25-15, 9:59am
I hope you feel better soon, pcooley!

I think the best way to rightsize her expectations is to let her know the price tag and then let her figure out a way to fund them. Tickets, even Greyhound tickets to MI don't magically appear. Somebody needs to buy them. There are many ways for a 15 yo to earn money - babysitting, delivering papers, helping out with your bees. A lot of kids in out area set up little vegetable stands with fresh produce such as sweet corn and tomatoes.

Good luck!

razz
9-25-15, 10:10am
Totally agree with Merince. Your DD is dreaming and having an image of herself that is not in harmony with her reality. That is being 15 years old. When she can fund the level of travel, she can go. "Our budget does not extend to funding this. You can go when you can pay for this yourself" Short and simple and repeated ad nauseum until it registers. It will take many repeats BTW.

Ultralight
9-25-15, 10:12am
All I can say is, good luck with this, amigo! Sounds rough. Get well soon.

JaneV2.0
9-25-15, 10:57am
I was raised in a family that could always find a thousand ways something was impossible. Thus, no Bryn Mawr (though school counselors were confident I could snag a scholarship), no sophomore year in Pavia (which I regret not somehow managing to this day). It may be a fine line to walk, but I hope you can point out the practicalities without dampening (or extinguishing) her precious self-confidence and innate ability to reach her goals. Believing all things are possible is the place where great deeds and discoveries are born.

iris lilies
9-25-15, 11:37am
Paul, kids in stable homes have little concept of where the paychecks go. They can't conceive how much is already obligated to utilities, food, etc. That she is considering these possibilities is a testament to your solid parenting skills. She's not worried about family money because you, her dad, worry about the family resources. You provide a solid base from which she can fly off.

so guide her, but let her fly. Does NOT mean you have to impoverish yourself to fund her dreams.

sweetana3
9-25-15, 12:30pm
At 15 a kid should have a certain amount of financial savvy. It is not generally taught in schools but is real need for parents. She should understand she is part of a family and that family finances are earned, finite, and often come with restrictions and plans\goals. Time to sit down with info about retirement, family plans and the limited money available.

Please dont wait until you blow up. This can create really negative feelings about family, money and expectations. It should be an ongoing discussion.

Dhiana
9-25-15, 12:48pm
NOW is the time for you and your wife to have a real conversation with her about the family finances.
NOW is the time she can make plans for her own future.

Together there needs to be an understanding of how her college can be paid for. With only $1400 saved she will very likely need to start working asap to help make it happen. When it's time to go in 2 - 3 years, it will be too late.

Seeing the big picture should help her see that these smaller trips to Mi or Ca will have a negative impact on her college options.
If she still wants to go, she needs to have at least a large percentage of her own money in to pay for the trip.

Good Luck!

Float On
9-25-15, 12:49pm
Kids never understand where money comes from or goes until they have to start coming up with it themselves.
Both of my boys have now told me "wow, never thought about how expensive things are until now. It's all about choices, mom." Ummm, what did I spend the last 19 years trying to tell you?
They both have some big travel plans. I've suggested they write out everything they could possibly need and how much each thing would cost. I'd only be able to donate X amount towards (pretty small amount) it if they come up with the rest. I hold my donation to the tail end of the "fundraising time frame"...if they don't raise what they need, I keep holding my money till the next idea.

KayLR
9-25-15, 12:50pm
Totally agree with sweetana...give her the reality check financially and help guide her in writing down some achievable short and longterm reality-based goals both with and without your help.

Tammy
9-25-15, 1:02pm
She needs a part time job where 100% of her checks go to travel expenses.

Tammy
9-25-15, 1:05pm
You could do a matching funds thing. Whatever she pays you will match it. That's what we did with lots of extras for our 3 kids.

Gardenarian
9-25-15, 1:59pm
I have a 16 year old with the same problem.
I think Float On is right; you can explain finances till you're blue in the face but they won't understand about money till they're on their own.

A lot of times, I just have to say NO. You can Skype and chat with your distant friends, but this is the time to do high school, and do it right. She's got plenty of time in the future to explore the world

I do try to come up with alternatives to her dream plans. I have sought out camp counselor jobs and low- or no-cost volunteer opportunities in other countries. I'm firm about staying put for the school year. (We're fortunate to have a fairly long summer break here - three full months.) I'm also very open to having her friends come and stay with us!

My dd is very busy, and while a job is certainly educational, she's got enough on her plate with school, honors requirements, dance, art, choir, etc. My dd's a bit scatterbrained and has trouble enough juggling her current commitments.
(I do think the matching funds things is a good idea, for those kids who can manage it.)

kib
9-25-15, 2:44pm
Mumbling and Muttering:

It is a fine line. I have to say my parents did a great job of making me understand that even though their finances were fine and stable, as a family we were strong as houses, my personal goals were going to be funded out of my own pocket. This started when I was really little, like maybe 5? I got an allowance and I could spend or save it, and that taught me just How Big a barbie or a new record or a new bicycle was. I understood just how long it was going to take to accumulate that money. My parents were actually very generous with chores for pay and eventual "help" in achieving my wishes, but I appreciated their help because I didn't expect it and it made the gifts seem huge.

The flip side of this is that I grew up obsessed with having a job. And then two jobs. And then spending as much time as I could at work, making money. I could wait approximately forever for my funds to accumulate through allowance, or I could speed up the process 50-fold. My mother was all for this because she grew up very poor, but in retrospect it was too much at the wrong time, my studies and my eventual work options wound up suffering in that eager pursuit of the almighty dollar because somehow I didn't conflate good grades and good schools with making a really good living. Maybe a better strategy than generous gifts would have been the carrot of payment for good grades, pulling me unwittingly into a solid career. I'm thinking this didn't happen because of the era ... I was a girl, which apparently made a good career and a good salary unthinkable.

So ... fine line. If I look at what I've written, I'd say the missing piece of my puzzle was ... bigger picture thinking. I realize that's not something teenagers specialize in, but understanding that I had the potential to make A LOT of money if I got through the educational hoops with flying colors never really sunk in. Maybe (maybe) I'd have reined in the instant gratification of earning money Now if I'd really seen that.

Which, sorry, isn't much advice for you, Paul. First make her understand that earning money is important for having what she wants, then tell her she needs to prioritize something else that's not about having what she wants so that she will have solid future earnings ... I don't envy you. :~)

pcooley
9-25-15, 5:21pm
Thanks everyone.

I took a look at the budget, thinking I could talk to her about it, but the budget always brings up all the fundamental arguments between my wife and I, which we have learned to navigate, though really not to our mutual satisfaction. (Isn't that basically the definition of a compromise?) The categories we go over in are basically the ones I get angry about. We are $281 over in the "supplements" category for the month. I think the herbal supplements are minimally useful at best, and I worry the way they have been piled on over the years, that they could be detrimental, but my wife thinks she would expire, or at least be severely depressed without her Happy Camper, et. al. I believe I could feed the family well on $500 - $600 a month, but my wife is a list maker. Things I think are treats, (grapefruit for breakfast, trail mix, dried fruit, and so on), have become staples of the list. Since paying off the mortgage, our grocery expenses have crept up to around $1400 month. Currently, groceries are 44% of our spending, followed by vacation at 9.59%, and eating out at 8.42%. To be fair, I finally replaced some of my 20 year old backpacking gear, so hiking and backpacking is coming in at 5.69%($1,365, mea culpa, though much of that was from money I received for my birthday. I usually use anything I receive for everyday bills, and I was feeling cranky about it this year). I'm guilty of occasionally buying almond butter at the grocery store, but when I feel like the money is tight, I don't buy it. I tend to pick through the list when I'm budgeting, but then I get in trouble for not buying what is wanted. All of these things I've discussed ad nauseum on this list, and my wife just doesn't want to sit down and discuss it. She always thanks me for handling all the money, but I often feel that part of my handling of the money is to make desired items magically appear. I'm not sure I want to drag my daughter into a conversation about the budget when it involves so much emotional baggage for me.

What I have been doing, and it works, but it doesn't feel right to me, is to abandon looking at the budget, stick a good third of our paychecks into savings, and then say "the money in the checking account is getting low." That will slow my wife down on her spending and listing a little bit. I would much rather say, as for this coming weekend, "We only have a dollar left in the grocery budget for the month, let's get creative with what we have on hand," but when I do that, everyone looks at me like I'm crazy, and my wife will go to the store to pick up "what she needs" and will return having spent $200 on supplements, meat, grapefruit - (I don't mean to pick on the grapefruit, it's just $20 a month, but she originally started eating it because I got some as a treat for myself, and she started wanting it ever morning, every week, and I find myself thinking, "well, I would like a grapefruit, but I don't feel like there's enough money in the budget for me to have one, etc. It's my martyr mentality, which is probably showing through here). I would say that none of these expenses I'm complaining about are really egregious, terrible things, but I've been going along with a "Tightwad Gazette" mentality regarding regular expenses for twenty or so years. Our income is around $65,000 now. I think of that as a lot of money that we need to manage wisely. My wife thinks of us as being in the lower middle class, and we're muddling through as best we can.

I'm really not sure how to present the compromises we make between those two lifestyles to my daughter in talking to her about how to mange money.

pcooley
9-25-15, 5:25pm
I'll sum up - money management is a sore spot for me, but my wife and I do reasonably well given our differences. We have no debt at all right now, and our house is paid for.

Maybe, unconsciously I also think that because I can make $40 bottles of allertonic magically appear for my wife, even though I don't think there's money in the budget for it, I should also be able to make train tickets to Michigan magically appear for my daughter. But I carry all the stress of keeping track of the money inside of me, and sometimes I get sick of it and wish someone else would do it for a while.

iris lilies
9-25-15, 6:16pm
Your little girl is not your wife. Even if your wife pushes for lots of extras for your daughter, that's your wife behind it.

i just can't with the supplements, rolling my eyes here. but off topic.

i think that the overall lesson we should impart to our children is: we all make choices, you can't have it all, saving money and delaying gratification in purchasing will give you more options in the future. Mechanics of daily budgeting and household bill paying mAy not be something they can grok due to complete lack of interest. It's a VALUE
not an academic exercise that can be taught in school.

Oh sure, in school we had a section on household budgeting in Home
economics. We prepared an income 1040 statement in another class. All of that went in one of my ears and out the other. What stuck in my central core was the value my family placed on being financially independent, spending money conservatively, appreciating life's free stuff, making your own entertainment and etc. Big shiney new crap wasn't valued.

At least, that was me. I was fairly spendy with my parents' money but once I became completely responsible for my own maintenance, the black belt went on, and I spent nothing beyond that required for essentials. I actually love the black belt game. My parents modeled the lifestyle even though my mom was more spendy than my dad.

kib
9-25-15, 6:22pm
Oh I so know how that feels. Fairy Godmother syndrome. Or being asked "can we afford this (shiny object I simply must have)" and being totally flummoxed for a reply. Are you asking me if we literally have enough money in our account to purchase this item, or are you asking me to make a Mommy-like judgment call about whether we Should buy it, which puts me in Mean Mommy land if I say no, and ulcer territory if I say yes.

I'm on a soap box about it today, so I'll say that it's really really difficult (are you listening, UL?) muddling along with someone you love who nevertheless doesn't want to pursue the same basic life goals you're dreaming about.

JaneV2.0
9-25-15, 6:33pm
That's why it has always been important for me to have my own money--so I can spend it as I will without external limits, conversation, or censure. If I make mistakes (and boy howdy have I), I have only myself to answer to.

kib
9-25-15, 7:21pm
In my case DH is asking, basically, about the money in his own account, because right or wrong, I refuse to completely join finances with someone who spends money like water. He's sort of the anti-Jane! His question, really, is "can *I* afford this", and I get stopped in my tracks about that question because the answer is, "I have no idea, what else do you want to do with your money?" I wind up saying something like, "well, you have $12,000 in your savings account." Which is basically ... putting it in his court, although I know he will assume that if he has $12,000, then spending $12,000 is the best course of action. He talks about going back to school, but when push comes to shove, that $12K somehow doesn't figure into it. I realize our situations aren't the same, but I so totally agree with Paul, I want someone else (guess who) to step up and take control of these decisions in a responsible way.

kib
9-25-15, 7:36pm
To add: Being asked (or ordered) to be the magic parental fairy godmother/father who makes dreams come true is difficult in another way. When we say we can't do it, the judgment comes back on us: if we were any good at this money stuff, we'd find a way. While we can rant and rave about the impossibility of making someone else's demands reality, we still take the emotional hit of "failing".

JaneV2.0
9-25-15, 7:44pm
It sounds to me like you need a family budget meeting to pare down a little here and there and add more to the kids' college/travel pot. If your daughter wants to study abroad, there should be plans in place. But you know that.

catherine
9-25-15, 7:47pm
At this point in my life, looking back, I know my mother gave me more than she should have, and I just was clueless, because I was young. I feel bad about that now. It's up to you to let her know what you are willing and able to give her, so later, when she's gained some wisdom, she won't feel bad about what she expected from you in her youth.

iris lilies
9-25-15, 8:33pm
At this point in my life, looking back, I know my mother gave me more than she should have, and I just was clueless, because I was young. I feel bad about that now. It's up to you to let her know what you are willing and able to give her, so later, when she's gained some wisdom, she won't feel bad about what she expected from you in her youth.

that's good. Agreed.

and the OP does know this, he's got all of the right ideas and tools. He is just going to,have to be the one to say "no" but that's his job as dad. Catherine and
Floaton's idea of setting an amount he is willing to give is very good. Sure it's another parental decision that
OP has to make, but that comes with the territory of parenthood.

JaneV2.0
9-25-15, 8:40pm
He can say no as necessary and still help his daughter get to yes on the important matters.

kib
9-25-15, 8:49pm
Yes. But if he's got a spouse that's going to look at him like he has three heads and say, "you're being ridiculous, of COURSE there's enough money for THAT" while refusing to actually look, make a plan and participate in the setting of limits (for everyone), that's seriously more difficult.

awakenedsoul
9-25-15, 10:11pm
I didn't get to read all of the posts yet, but just thought I'd reply. Your daughter sounds like she's dreaming big. She may surprise you. I was required to pay for things like ballet seminars in San Francisco and Irvine when I was 13-17. I won several scholarships, and made some lifelong friends. I had constant work babysitting, assisting my dance teachers, and helping out at the local Capezio shop. One neighbor invited me to go on vacation with their family as an au pair. They paid my way, and we stayed on the beach in Santa Monica. I loved it there so much I decided to move there. My dad told me that if I wanted to be a dancer, I would have to support myself. At 17, I rented a room from a friend's mom in Torrance, and made money house sitting for wealthy parents of my friends in Beverly Hills and Pacific Palisades. I also worked the early a.m. shift at Mac Donalds, and ran a small restaurant at the dance studio called the Bunny Hutch. (The owner would go home early.) I also taught Pre Ballet and was hired at the Jewish Community Center to teach tap.

I started working in shows at 19, and traveled all over the US with the National Tour of My One and Only. Five years later I toured Europe with 42ns Street for two years. I spent one year performing at a theater in Berlin.

So, maybe your daughter will be able to finance all of this. I would encourage her. My parents did not fund my travels, my work did. Our family didn't take vacations.

She sounds like a great girl. I have a feeling she will do very well.

Gardnr
9-25-15, 10:47pm
I can see that you are really conflicted. Can I suggest: Sit down with the wife and discuss the topic. What is her position on the daughter's dreams of travel? If she wants her to go, what do "we" give up to save the $ for her travel? How much is needed for the travel bill and how much savings per month is required? It's a work-around to get your wife to consider her "musts".

What would my Dad and Mom have said? You can do and have what you can earn. He provided me a well-used car/insurance/gas to get to work. Everything else I wanted was at my expense. (And my Dad could afford what I wanted.)

I do not envy you these difficult decisions. I hope you find some peace through this journey.

PS: Treat yourself to a grapefruit;)

mschrisgo2
9-25-15, 11:10pm
Yes, I remember that it can feel 'impossible" when our kids want "big" things. My experience is a little different. I was divorced when my daughter was less than a year old, so I was a single parent all of her growing up years. Even though I made good money, she grew up knowing that there were limits.

One day I was at a workshop for teachers about teacher's kids, and the presenter stated some startling statistics about single teachers' kids- that most of them (like: 80%) give up on going to college long before they really even know what "college" is- they just internalize that it is expensive, and know it's not going to be in the cards, so to speak. This presenter challenged us to continue to be aware of and change that mindset.

My daughter was always very physically competent. I decided to grow that "can-do" attitude and let it expand her dreams and goals. So I told her we (she and I) would find a way to pay for college when it was time. And I would tell her about her other dreams and goals, "there's probably a way to accomplish that, you just haven't found it yet" and send her on her search. She got very good at figuring things out and tapping into resources.

She went to Russia with a dance troupe when she was 13; they needed to fill the tour, and her best friends' mom paid my daughter's way. That one kind of fell into her lap, but it helped her think about possibilities.

We flew to Disneyland for Mother's Day one year. I heard $39 fares advertised on the radio, asked DD to make the reservations when she got home from school, and find us a hotel. She did, also for $39! and this was before the internet!

She went to junior college in town for a year. When she took her last final, she called me from school and said, "just so you know, I'm not coming back to school until I have a goal." I told her thanks for the heads-up, and asked what she was doing for the rest of the day. "Going to work," she said, and promptly went and got herself a job hosting in a wonderful restaurant, and started that night!

When she decided what she want to do for school and work, she had been married, divorced, and had 3 small boys. She began to look for a way to go to pharmacy tech school. She applied and received funding from the Business People's Round Table: they paid her tuition, other fees, books, materials, and transportation, everything except actual living expenses, for 8 months of school, 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. They even paid the fee for her to file her tech license. When I asked her why she thought they were willing to do that, she said, "well, I told them I didn't want my kids to grow up on welfare, so I had to get my education and get a good job. They appreciated that."

She has been able to support her family well for 15 years now. And she still searches for the best deals and plans ways to achieve the BIG things. Right now she's planning a Disneyland trip for 8. I know it will be a very low cost, but wonderful trip.

Note: The Bank of Mom closed when she was 14, when she began making significant babysitting money. She bought her own clothes, and earned her own spending money. She spent, saved, planned and learned she could usually achieve her goals.

pcooley
9-25-15, 11:41pm
It's not quite so extreme as my wife looking at me like I have three heads on the travel issue. That look is reserved for the everyday expenses - if I suggest the toothpaste is on sale for 69 cents a tube and she might not really need the $8 a tube Sensodyne. Or if I suggest we take a break from the $40 a bottle Allertonic and just use benadryl for a month or two until we have a bigger emergency fund. What has become difficult, is that list has become large over the years. I joke that three quarters of our family grocery expenses is taken up with my wife's "special" things. I have never stopped to tally it up because that would seem very, very petty to me, but I get angry at the list when I'm looking for inexpensive alternatives, and I know they just wouldn't be acceptable. That's what I get the three headed look for, and I'm pretty sure that is the reason our grocery bill has crept up to $12-1400 a month. (That and the fact that my wife has stuck with the paleo diet. I abandoned it because it seemed too expensive, and I do have ethical problems with eating meat, though I do like to eat some. (I did get my weight down to 175 from 211 at one point, and my blood pressure has been staying at around 108/75 instead of 146/86. "What are you doing eating tortillas and beans again?" my wife says to me. It's because it's a lot cheaper to buy her one steak and for the kids and I to have burritos than to buy three steaks, (and make my vegetarian daughter eat rice and a vegetable yet again). Sometimes I get peevish because I'm eating burritos and brushing my teeth with baking soda to save money, and my wife is eating steak and brushing her teeth with Sensodyne, but it really is just a matter of having different priorities. Lucky is the person who gets married to someone who has exactly the same priorities. My wife's and mine are often parallel, and we are generally happy. I try to let go of the frustration, though when I do get frustrated, I often vent on this board. I'm really not sure that's a good thing all the time.

What will probably happen with the travel is I will talk to my daughter about Michigan, and that probably won't happen. I will try to make a cheap trip to California happen to visit her friends. I would like to go to California, so maybe we can all go on Spring Break instead of our usual backpacking trip to Utah.

I will work it out, but I just get tired of holding the reigns of finance in the family.

pcooley
9-25-15, 11:54pm
I just have to sneak this one last thing in - I noticed that Calcium Magnesium Sulfate ($11-$14 depending if it's on sale), began appearing on the list almost weekly. I notice that she has three tablespoons now at bedtime instead of just one. She is having surgery soon because she has pain in her toe, and the podiatrist said there is a big buildup of calcium he needs to take out, probably from an old injury healing wrong. Coincidence? I'm not so sure, but if I suggested that she might be overdosing on calcium, I would get a look that would singe my hair off. As an INFP, I avoid conflict like the plague.

Tradd
9-25-15, 11:55pm
I don't know what's so difficult about it. Daughter wants to go on trip you can't afford, she can raise the money herself or not go. Simple as that.

pcooley
9-26-15, 1:16am
My daughter and I had a nice long talk. She has some ideas to help with the budget - she wants us to make forms for her and her brother for the things they want to eat for the week. They're supposed to write things on the list, but they're not very good at it. I expressed my dismay that, in spite of paying a king's ransom for groceries each week, we always seem to be out of food. She noted that she and her brother usually eat everything I buy for them in the first two days. I do not, however, rush out and buy more food. My daughter attributes that to our eight years of being carfree. She thinks her friends' families run to the store all the time just because they're used to having a car, and we are used to bicycling for groceries, which we don't want to do after being at work. We went over the budget really carefully, so she could see that we have property tax, home insurance, etc. coming up. We also talked about how fortunate we are. She said 2/3s of her classmates at her elementary school qualified for free lunch. We've never been down at that level of struggle as a family, though I do remember, personally, being just out of college and having only a 50 pound bag of beans to eat for several weeks. I got a job helping build a horse barn, and when I got paid, I went straight to the Bobcat Bite and ate a huge steak. That was the best meal ever. I may be wrong, but I don't think my wife ever went through that level of living. Her parents paid for college. Mine made me claim financial independence so they would not have to pay. I'm sure our backgrounds shaped how we approach our day to day expenses.

My daughter will be housesitting for her cross-country coach over Thanksgiving, and she wants to drum up more housesitting and pet sitting business. She'll be taking a motorcycle safety course this weekend, and will be able to ride her scooter on her own starting next week, even though she only has a permit. (They require 50 hours of driving with the learner's permit with an adult to get a provisional driver's license for a car. We just don't drive that much!) I told her that I would prefer she housesit for people she knows. Craig's List seems like a good idea, but I come from a family full of safety paranoia. I just don't want her going over to the house of a stranger who found her online. She agreed readily that she would stick to that rule. Otherwise, she really is just too busy to hold a job - there really is no after school for her.

She told me that in addition to applying for the United World College, she is also applying for a full scholarship, language immersion program. She said she has a friend who spent an academic year in Turkey, and then traveled around Europe staying in hostels and with friends. That was something I did not know she was doing! Do other kids apply for study abroad without talking to their parents first thing? I guess she knows I support her aspirations. I asked her how much it would cost, and she said, "Dad, I don't even apply for things that cost money." I appreciate that, but I let her know that we want to help as much as we are able with things.

It's now long after my bedtime. Sadie is applying to give a Youth Ted Talk on her experience at Camp Rising Sun. I forwarded the email message to her as a joke, with the subject line "I know you aren't very busy . . ." If she gets accepted to give a Ted Talk, that will be one more thing on her plate, but I think she will have fun with it. A close friend of hers gave a Ted Talk last year, and he did his homework on the train to Albuquerque for the twice-a-week practice and writing sessions.

I think I was just thrown for a loop with the suddenness of her plans to go to Michigan this morning. I told her if she can raise the money, I would support her going, and if I can get enough saved for our expenses coming up, I would be happy to help her, but I was really going to focus on going to California for Spring Break. I just hope our 170,000 mile Subaru is up for the challenge. (Come to think of it, it's 1000 miles overdue for an oil change).

Life goes on.

Teacher Terry
9-26-15, 3:08pm
Yikes that grocery bill is horrible. We take a few supplements but nothing like you are talking about. Could you approach it with your wife that if you cut back on some areas you could put more $ in the college fund. If not I would use the sneaky approach & put some in savings & make the family live off what is left. I bet you are right about your wives toe. Too many or too much supplements are harmful.

Gardnr
9-26-15, 3:25pm
If not I would use the sneaky approach & put some in savings & make the family live off what is left.

Yikes. I would not encourage Financial Infidelity.

Teacher Terry
9-26-15, 3:38pm
I would if it means keeping the family financially safe.

pcooley
9-26-15, 4:13pm
It's not really infidelity. My wife knows I'm saving to pay bills and saving to pay what we can for college. I don't volunteer how much I put in savings, but I loaded YNAB on her iPad at one point in the hopes she would take a more active interest in helping me budget. She can access all of our account information at any time, she just has no interest. I think of it as budgeting on a big scale. She doesn't like the idea of "no more money in the specific category budget" but she works well with no more money in checking.

Teacher Terry
9-27-15, 12:44pm
It sounds like you have a good solution then. Just limit what you put in the checking.

catherine
9-27-15, 2:59pm
It's not really infidelity. My wife knows I'm saving to pay bills and saving to pay what we can for college. I don't volunteer how much I put in savings, but I loaded YNAB on her iPad at one point in the hopes she would take a more active interest in helping me budget. She can access all of our account information at any time, she just has no interest. I think of it as budgeting on a big scale. She doesn't like the idea of "no more money in the specific category budget" but she works well with no more money in checking.

I do the same.. and DH knows his limitations when it comes to delayed gratification. He always jokes about the fact that no matter how much cash he leaves the house with, he always comes home with $1. As I've mentioned, I really think Dave Ramsey has a totally common-sense approach to money management, but I have tried and failed many times to get DH to go beyond the glazed, deer-in-the-headlights look whenever we talk about money.

So, as Paul said, once you have an implicit rubber stamp on taking on the family finances, you do what you can to protect the family.

lhamo
9-27-15, 8:27pm
Not much to add that hasn't already been said -- though encouraging her to work to earn money for her own travels and adventures is certainly a great idea!

Good luck to her on her UWC application. Is the other program she was considering applying to the Rotary scholarship? I had friends who got those and they had great experiences. I didn't get that one and was very disappointed -- almost didn't apply to UWC as a result. Thankfully a very wise mentor encouraged me to continue to pursue the UWC opportunity, and it totally changed my life. I understand the desire to go to one of the overseas colleges, but hope that she won't limit it to that if offered a place at USA or one she hasn't considered. 99% of the wonderfulness of UWC is the people, who become your best friends. Really an amazing experience. I hope she gets in!

Dhiana
9-27-15, 8:42pm
Oh I so know how that feels. Fairy Godmother syndrome.

Yes!! Exactly this...Fairy Godmother! LOL!!!

freshstart
9-27-15, 10:39pm
I just have to sneak this one last thing in - I noticed that Calcium Magnesium Sulfate ($11-$14 depending if it's on sale), began appearing on the list almost weekly. I notice that she has three tablespoons now at bedtime instead of just one. She is having surgery soon because she has pain in her toe, and the podiatrist said there is a big buildup of calcium he needs to take out, probably from an old injury healing wrong. Coincidence? I'm not so sure, but if I suggested that she might be overdosing on calcium, I would get a look that would singe my hair off. As an INFP, I avoid conflict like the plague.

calcium is one of the supplements that depending on type, you either take it with a meal or on an empty stomach, so she should check which way hers should be taken or it will not be absorbed properly. There are studies linking a "low dose", 1000-1200mg as possibly contributing to heart attack and stroke, if not enough Vit D is taken. And too much calcium can promote kidney stone development whereas similar amount of dietary calcium does not. (I'm an INTJ if I remember right, so I would print out journal articles, put them next to her plate and walk away, lol)

freshstart
9-27-15, 11:40pm
We take a few supplements but nothing like you are talking about. Could you approach it with your wife that if you cut back on some areas you could put more $ in the college fund. I bet you are right about your wives toe. Too many or too much supplements are harmful.

if she's taking higher than the recommended amount, you are paying for vitamin enriched urine, more is not better and can be harmful


As to the OP, I have a 16 yr old DD. She is driven, she pushes herself so hard, I get a little worried. She has high goals and the plan to get there. She is financially savvy, she learned very young how to get the most possible clothing with her money. She saves and saves. As soon as she turned 15, she started working the next day. Advanced classes, in the State Youth orchestra, tons of clubs and charity work. Up til 11 doing homework. I worry a little that she is gonna burn out big time but I cannot get her to even consider cutting one thing back. She knows there is not a lot for college (I was a nurse, disabled for a yr now), I will do my best and so will my ex but realistically she will be taking out loans, looking for grants, scholarships. She finally saw reason and is willing to go to a State U, because her bigger goal is an MBA at an Ivy.

So she's got the travel bug, productive camps (Business Camp in Chicago, no s'mores and camp fire songs there), her orchestra is going to Portugal, it seems like something requiring a plane ticket is popping up every month for her consideration. She didn't understand in the beginning that this stuff is not absolutely crucial, tons of kids got invited to Business Camp, it's a business. She would get all excited by a college form letter and brochure, she thought they had really looked at her and want her. I refused to contribute to a $3000 (almost $4500 in the end) Business Camp in Chicago, airfare, and 10 days of business clothes. I told her if Rosa Rios was speaking, I would pay. She did not, I did not. We have Business Camp at decent-ish colleges right here. I told her the first rule of Business Camp should be is this going to further my goals more than one close by and look at the prices, if your mom won't take on debt to do it, how are you going to accomplish this? Well, the beauty of divorce, of never being on the same page kid wise, she just went and asked her dad, who said "of course". Then he freaked because I would not pay half unless she went to a Business Camp we could afford and drive to. I bought most of the wardrobe. She had an awesome week, tons of "friends" from around the world, learned a lot and yes, it probably was a better business camp than what we have. But did she really need that?

And this trip to Portugal with the State Orchestra? 4k, 8 days including 2 days travel there and back and then driving around the country, giving 4 performances, sight seeing. This is not a bad thing, her life will be enhanced for it but will this affect her future goals if she cannot afford to go? Probably not, being in the State Orchestra is plenty on it's own. Her foreign language class goes abroad this year, as well.

I'm on disability now, even if I wasn't, half the cost of these 3 trips is not gonna happen. Life offers you many wonderful opportunities, you cannot do them all or you cannot expect your parents to pay for them all. And she was well on the way to learning this but remembered Daddy doesn't say no. She's correct, he will not say no, he says yes, then calls me demanding 1/2 even though DD told him I said "sorry, it is not in the budget, but we can do....."

I hate this and cannot wait til I am out from under the noose of divorce, I want her to grow up to work hard, save, invest, play hard some, be independent and frugal, so she has money left to travel or spend however she wishes as she gets older. This does not need to all be jammed into her Junior year of HS. I told her she could've bought a car with the leftovers from doing Business Camp here. And the kids that come to our college's camp, are from all over the world, too. Sometimes you don't realize how good your own backyard is.

Tammy
9-28-15, 6:36am
"I'm an INTJ if I remember right, so I would print out journal articles, put them next to her plate and walk away, lol)"

That's great! I'm entj so I would repeat the main points of the research verbally until she walked away. Then I would text her a link. Ha!

freshstart
9-28-15, 1:08pm
That's great! I'm entj so I would repeat the main points of the research verbally until she walked away. Then I would text her a link. Ha

!

Have you ever been asked your type at a job interview? Hospice asked me that, in a group interview. The only reason I knew it was because friends were doing it online, I hadn't done it since college. Had I not been doing this on a lark, no way I'd recall the one from college and therefore be crossed off the list of potential candidates, a list of one, ME, lol.

something in my gut told me not to say INTJ, because this was a group hardcore into it and if I didn't "fit", I would not be hired. So I said INTF, everyone all happy, I'll be able to work with the types on my team! Ridiculous. If you throw out that question, the person can say anything they want, kinda like me, lol. Or be mortified that they have no idea what these whackadoos are talking about.

they had recently taken the "test" and were really trying to understand and work with the different types. They said "Js" and "Ns" can never work here because they are unable to be comforting, etc. (this INTJ actually did quite well at that for 11 years, but had I admitted I was a "J", I would not have got the job.

After an interviewee would leave we would sit around and pick her apart in the spirit of deciding whether to hire her. "Well, the last few were Is, we really need more Es, so she would not work out." A few rounds of this, good people turned away when we were very understaffed because of their "type" and solely based on that. I printed out the facts, that it should not be used in employment, your type should be kept confidential, etc, and handed it to my boss and said, "I am no longer willing to ask, discuss or choose a person based on this, I'm not losing my license over improper hiring practices." She was red faced and threatened to give it to the director. I took the paper back and said, "no worries, I'll go talk to her!"

Director said, "they are basing hires on Meyers Briggs but not administrating the test, which we are not even allowed to do. Asking them in front of a group, their type and telling them whether they would fit in? They cannot possibly be basing a hire solely on this. They aren't, please tell me they are not doing this. OMG, all of those candidates rejected can totally sue us! Thank you for this pile of horse shit I just fell in!"

So I am a closeted INTJ, hopefully a bakery will be accepting and willing to make a wedding cake when I marry an ENSP!

Tammy
9-28-15, 2:32pm
There's research I found somewhere a while back that says meijers Briggs should never be used in interviews. Can't remember the details ...

freshstart
9-28-15, 2:42pm
There's research I found somewhere a while back that says meijers Briggs should never be used in interviews. Can't remember the details ...

I think I read they were a mother/daughter team that had no college education when they started out