View Full Version : Waking up, Giving up, Cheering up!
I'm not quite sure why I'm sharing this, except that I've been on a simplicity journey with some of you since I began, but yesterday I finally decided that enough is enough, and it feels like a good idea I need to talk about.
For the last decade I've been struggling over the difference in ideology between my DH's desired lifestyle and my own, specifically about the whole YMOYL journey to FIRE. The one thing I'd accomplished when he came along was a sense of financial independence, and this push-pull has been ten years of no progress at all. I've tried so hard to keep on top of spending and make sure it's all totally "fair", in other words that "we" spend like he wants to spend, only on my budget. He doesn't want to talk about money, he doesn't want to consider long term goals about money, he doesn't want to track spending. You know what? NEITHER DO I! All I do anymore is feel resentful and upset over the endless effort I put into every expense while he breezes through life as if he has a magic genie.
So! I came to two conclusions: 1. Paying in what I have to pay in, what I plan to pay in, is appropriate, and that's not necessarily matching him dollar for dollar. 2. If I "pay in" what I feel is appropriate for a baseline life up front (having tracked and knowing reasonable numbers of course, not just my fantasy budget), and if I accept that I've paid what I'm going to, then I can drop the whole who-owes-what-for-what-and-where-is-the-receipt-and-which-account-is-that-money-in-and-what-credit-card-is-it-on nightmare that happens about 15 times a week.
Some of you might think I'm selling out. Maybe I am. What I'm thinking is, YES!!! Oh thank God, I can finally get on with living my life and being focused on earning/saving/spending that's about my life and choices. Keeee-rist, I think I'm gonna get a Latte. Maybe even a pumpkin spice latte. From Starbucks. :0!
iris lilies
10-8-15, 3:47pm
Agreed, you absolutely have to make a change.
But I'm not clear what this change is (and I don't need to be clear about it. ) Somehow the bills must be paid, the assets grown. I don't know how to do that without periodic discussion and goal setting between partners.
In other words I don't know how the day to day stuff changes for you. If 15 discussions a week aren't really necessary,then why did you do that to begin with? If he's not interested, he's not interested. That's when you inform him of what you are doing with your household finances and move on.
i can tell you the financial relationship of DH and myself changed this year because we both retired. And here's my confession since it is deep confession time: I don't know how much we spend each mont, each year. I really don't know. We don't have, and never have had a budget. So I charged myself with learning about our spending. I may give more details later with this, but don't want to take over your thread.
I can feel your relief from here. Are you going to let him in on the new plan?
Enjoy your latte. Make it a venti, with extra cream.
I have no budget either. I tried it once for a month, looked at it, shrugged and moved on. I balanced my checkbook once, too--just to prove I could. I'm good enough with money to have a boffo FICO score, but otherwise I keep very loose reins on my finances. If it turns out you're not comfortable with laissez faire money management, you can always readjust.
Please post! I am very interested in hearing how other couples do it. Just don't post the polygamy book again. ;)
I went FI with the idea of living on a reasonably small income. About 70% of my income to go to basic life expenses, 15% to go back into savings, and 15% to spend on myself for my life beyond the basics. A very modest and minimalist way of being, a lot of home-made and second-hand and just not having a lot of Stuff, period. DH wants a different kind of lifestyle, and paying my fair share for that has basically eaten up the 30% - for ten years now, flatline on savings and no discretionary budget for me. (it doesn't help that it's not even a lifestyle I want, it's basically a lifestyle I rejected.)
The way I make ends meet for even that is to examine every purchase and only pay what I truly owe. Which is an exhausting, niggardly, resentful way to live. Milk, that was mine. Chocolate, that was yours. Bananas, you. Beer, 75% you. Baking powder, even split. - it's not 15 discussions a week, it's 15+ receipts examined and dissected. There are no discussions.
When I give in and eat into principal to keep up with Mr. Jones' lifestyle, it makes me feel sick and scared.
Yesterday, he said, "I think I'm going to buy a(nother) motorcycle." He's traded out four since we married and currently has two. And something just snapped. I said that's nice, dear. And I decided that I'm paying in 70% of my income for baseline expenses, right into his paycheck account, and after that I don't care how much the bills actually are or whether that's my fair share or not. To coin a phrase, f*** this already.
So I'm still going to be managing my investments, and I'm still going to be the one to pay all the bills, out of that paycheck account. I'm just not going to trouble myself with whether it's 'fair' or not, because I'm putting in what I have to put in, and if he needs to live like the average American, then that's not my problem. I will still be my frugal self, it's not that I've decided to start living like a Jones, but I'm not going to worry myself about wearing the most uncomfortable hair shirt I can find.
Jane ... I don't know. He's never wanted to be in on it before, he prudently removes himself from the room the second I grab a receipt. Basically he doesn't know how it works now, and I don't know that it's my job to inform him of the change unless it starts to be apparent that he doesn't have enough money to live the way he'd like.
To paraphrase an old saying, "Karen says take what you want; and pay for it."
Just me, but I would need my life partner to be on board with financial goals. The retirement prospect really puts this into perspective for us right now. I am the money manager and DH is fine with that. I don't budget but I know within 5% what we spend on all categories including his photography hobby. How else can we ever retire if we don't know where it all goes? After a lifetime together, DH finally respects that viewpoint and "cooperates".
DH is on track to retire at normal retirement age, it's not that he's a complete spendthrift. The motorcycle money, for example, is coming out of excess in the paycheck fund. He doesn't seem interested in FIRE and he has literally said, "I'm not good with money, I don't care about this." I guess I could have a philosophical problem with that if wanted to get idealistic, but it's his life and his choice, he would rather work to play today and work another 20+ years. I'd take the bike money and put it in a Roth, but that's not what he wants from his life. But I can't live as if I were bringing in $50,000 a year after taxes when I'm only bringing in $30,000, and still complete my own financial picture.
I know this sounds angry and rebellious, but in my own way I'm trying to do something positive for this marriage. I can't live like I am, but I think I can live with him, if I let go of the childhood concept that I have more than I deserve and should be punished for it.
I can't live like I am, but I think I can live with him, if I let go of the childhood concept that I have more than I deserve and should be punished for it.
As Elsa would say:
Standing frozen in the life I've chosen
You won't find me, the past is so behind me
Buried in the snow
Let it go
Let it go
Can't hold you back anymore
Let it go
Let it go
Turn my back and slam the door
And here I stand
And here I'll stay
Let it go
Let it go
The cold never bothered me anyway
DH and I are polar opposites also. In fact I've often said that we should start a little lunch cafe called the "Black and White Cafe" because a) he always tells me, "I say black and you say white" and b) we could serve fatty hamburgers and fries (for him)as well as greek salads and qunioa & kale (for me).
As for money, he is absolutely clueless and also not on board. I've quasi-stressed about it for a long time. I think it is difficult to have partners as polar opposites money-wise.
Suze Orman (I don't like her, but I do like this idea) has a system for couples' contributions to the general housekeeping fund which is based on a proportion of their individual incomes. It keeps it all utterly fair: here's her example:
The division of your cost of living should be based on your incomes. To determine how much you should be paying, add up your combined take-home earnings, then figure out what percentage each of you brings in. Let's say your take-home pay is $3,500 and your boyfriend's is $2,800, giving you a total monthly household income of $6,300. Your income is 55 percent of that sum and his is 45 percent. So if your mutual expenses are $3,000 a month, you pay $1,650 and he pays $1,350.
Next up is an emergency savings account. Again, I want you to have both a joint and a separate one. The former ensures that you're protected as a couple; the latter is where you find the certainty that you'll never be dependent on somebody else. Your personal reserve should equal three months of your living expenses, while the joint account should cover six to eight months. I recommend a hefty joint fund so that if one of you were to lose your job or become ill, you would have enough to get by for a while. At the same time, if the relationship doesn't work out, you will have your own nest egg to fall back on.
I get what you mean about separating out the beer and all the little mini-line items. I have to admit to being absolutely OCD about that, simply for the purpose of tracking my expenses. I love it at the end of the year when I can say, OK, I did better on food this year, but next year I have to cut back on clothing..
We don't have a budget either, but our every spending is low with a paid off mortgage and cars. Hubby's big "extravagance" is food supplements - I think its excessive to pay 10 time more than I have to for vitamins, but that's his one thing. And I have more than "one thing" I spend money on, so I really can't say anything there. ;)
When we were younger and not FI, there were a number of years where I followed the YMOYL way of tracking every cent. It was good training to review monthly and make sure I got the value from my purchases, but now it seems rather unnecessary. We have a surplus every month, and hefty savings, so now that I'm mid 50's I can splurge a tiny bit.
I would be resentful if my plans were to retire early, but my spouse spent lots of money on unnecessaries which would prevent me from retiring early. I would be resentful if I was contributing more to a common pot other than adjusting for difference in individual incomes (eg it would be unfair to split 50-50 if one partner only made 30% of the other). Petty? You bet, but I know it would bug me to save save and have a partner spend spend.
OK, not sure what you are gaining out of all this. Is he that great a companion? Excess debt will hit both of you, now or later so that is hanging over you. Obviously, your DH doesn't'see it that way as I am reading it. It is your problem, not his seemingly.
So neither has a budget anymore, no boundaries, no responsibilities. What am I missing in your view of things?
DH and I discussed almost every serious expense and financial decision. Often, I did the research and he asked questions about the unknowns as he saw them and then the decision was made by mutual consent. He paid the mortgage and car payments all along. I paid for clothes, the groceries, donations and gifts as I took only 6 years off to be with our young family. Jointly we paid towards the holidays, children's education and other major expenses.
I am 71, DH has passed on and I am very comfortable in my new cozy little house in a nice neighbourhood living a nice life because we both worked toward it. Incompatibility of value of dollar and not planning the future would be a serious deal breaker for me from the outset. That seems to me like a liability not companionship.
iris lilies
10-8-15, 7:27pm
To give a general overview of how we run finances here: we've always had more than enough income to meet financial obligations, so budgeting isn't necessary. One major reason why we have "enough"" is because I am cheap, and DH is even cheaper.
He is the hands on daily financial guy, the payer of bills, the mover of money between accounts. He gets anxious when I "pry" into this daily work, but I remind him that this is my information, too. If he doesn't like sharing info, we will go to separate finances.
I want an overview of our finances on an annual-ish basis. I look at the overall picture once a year. Since our net worth always grows, that seems like a good path to me. I don't think we need to budget and haven't wanted great detail about spending.
But now that we are retired and no longer bringing in big bucks, I am paying more attention to details. Just two days ago,I added up our monthly output over the last six months of retirement. It has been remarkably consistent at $4500 per month. there, I said it! That adds up to $54,000 annually, but that does not include the large
IRS check we write in April.
funny that even though I said earlier that I did not really know how much we spend each month, I had an idea that $50,000 - $60,000 annually would be a comfortable place for us, not requiring us to cut back back much. And there we are.
iris lilies
10-8-15, 7:33pm
OK, not sure what you are gaining out of all this....Incompatibility of value of dollar and not planning the future would be a serious deal breaker for me from the outset. That seems to me like a liability not companionship.
Sigh. I have wondered this for a long time. OP, Please look at ways to separate out your finances, and possibly your living situations. You can still have a relationship but not put your finances at risk.
Chicken lady
10-8-15, 8:20pm
Old system: all the money was "ours". Dh paid all the bills, for the first six years we were broke. We only bought essentials. One december i was walking home from work (literally 3 miles in snow) and i found a $20 bill blowing across an empty parkin lot. I looked around for an angel. We spent the whole $20 on extravagances to celebrate christmas. Then dh got a job. We consulted each other about "big" items. my idea of a big item I should ask him about was often so small to him he looked at me like I was nuts and said "just buy it.". His idea of a small item often annoyed me, but I figured he was earning the money.
i was in charge of the house and kids with the same consultation policy and similar results (apparently a radical haircut or removing a door is a big decision - who knew?). But it worked pretty well.
Dh changed jobs,got raises and now makes more money than I ever imagined we would (officially we are still "middle class"). He still asks me about big purchases, but I haven't questioned them in years. The kids are mostly moved out. I'm still the boss of the youngest. (who is 19) I've been working part time for 7 years.
New system: the last two years, my paycheck is mine. I pay for all farm expenses and keep all farm income. Dh gives me $200 a year or landscaping/fruit/veggie plants and seeds. The farm provides milk, cheese, ice cream, eggs, veggies and fruit that we both eat. I asked for the $200. He said "whatever you want."
I also pay if I want uneccessary clothes or shoes, meals out on my own, any "thing" I want that isn't essential, entertainment with friends, classes, books, etc. If I buy someone a gift, I buy it. Dh pays everything else. He saves for our retirement. He also buys me gifts of frivolous things sometimes for no reason. I tend to spend more now because I feel like it is "my" money and because dh has specifically said it's for me to spend. I am still saving for some big stuff, like a fencing job next summer.
Williamsmith
10-8-15, 8:39pm
I've got 32 years of marriage under my belt and I just asked her if we ever argued about spending. She said, "For 25 years you probably didn't know or care anything about our finances."
It's true. My job had me away from home nights, weekends, holidays and for long stretches. She basically raised the kids and paid the bills. I only had time for two hobbies , neither of which cost much to do because I hunted my own property and playing a guitar is free.
Upon retirement, I took over budgeting and the finances. I counted every penny and embarked on a plan to pay off my mortgage. I did. And although she didn't buy into the debt free mantra, she still saw the vision and supported it to some extent.
My contribution is basically 2/3 our total income. That covers all expenses. Anything she makes working she is free to spend as she pleases but it is kept in a separate savings account which has six months expenses in it on average.
We don't always agree. She has always wanted to drive newer more reliable cars. It has been our financial Achilles heel. But while it has not always fit my philosophy on frugality, I feel this is where compromise is more important than sticking to ones convictions. Most of these things are worked out on long walks on trails near our home.
I can't imagine having a partner and not being on the same page and working for the same goals.
...
I can't imagine having a partner and not being on the same page and working for the same goals.
My philosophy is that the only reason to be married is a comittment to work together on shared goals. A successful marriage, IMO, is one where both partners are better people, more successful--for whatever that means to them--as a unit than they would be as individuals.
ApatheticNoMore
10-8-15, 9:26pm
I can't imagine having a partner and not being on the same page and working for the same goals.
I just wouldn't combine finances, love and money are probably often a bad mix.
Wow, a lot to mull over.
As far as the money goes, what it's basically about is a change of protocol and attitude. We do have somewhat separate finances, I just run both sets of books. And I'm not worried about debt or saving for a house or anything else, I have everything I need, paid for, and the means to maintain it. He makes more than enough money to cover his needs and expenses, he just may have to trim down the Wants a little bit. It's not about spending more as a family, or throwing the budget in the fireplace. It's about looking at my accomplishments in budgeting for the past few years and saying ok, with effort and a LOT of attention to minute detail that comes down to splitting hairs, I can keep my share of the expenses around $X, which is basically 100% of what I earn. Now rather than spending the rest of my life accounting for who ate more of the bananas and who wasted $.50 running the dishwasher instead of rinsing plates, which makes me at best depressed and at worst a horror to live with, I'm going to put 85% of $X in our joint account and call it good. I earn half what he does, that seems fair.
As far as the marriage goes ... what can I say. I wouldn't do it again, with anyone, and had I known that we weren't at all on the same page about our life's aspirations I wouldn't have done it in the first place. I gave him the five cent tour of my way and my work, he said awesome, I said great. Turns out he was completely distracted by my outstanding jahoobies and he'd have said awesome if I suggested he light himself on fire. :~)
But it's ten years into a life together. Ten years of circumstances changing, and ten years of the same sort of complex bonds as everyone else - love, familiarity, affection, shared pets, responsibility, roles, inside jokes, an understanding of how to be together. If I can find a niche where I get to have some of the life I built, and build some more of the life I want, there's no reason to leave. Besides, the jahoobies are not what they once were.:(
rodeosweetheart
10-9-15, 1:15am
Maybe I am not following exactly, but I am trying to understand why if he makes double what you make, you would be putting in 85-100 per cent of your salary? If you think you will both be living on your retirement income, then wouldn't he pay more now and you pay more later, in retirement? Especially if he is not saving for his retirement?
Sorry, I am having trouble following the plot here. And I think I may have similar dynamic in my relationship, so very interested in what you are saying, and how to make it feel fairer, where he worries a little more about money and I worry a little less! So I am with you on that part, I totally get it.
And you should always have enough to buy yourself a latte, goodness!
iris lilies
10-9-15, 2:09am
DH is on track to retire at normal retirement age, it's not that he's a complete spendthrift. The motorcycle money, for example, is coming out of excess in the paycheck fund. He doesn't seem interested in FIRE and he has literally said, "I'm not good with money, I don't care about this." I guess I could have a philosophical problem with that if wanted to get idealistic, but it's his life and his choice, he would rather work to play today and work another 20+ years. I'd take the bike money and put it in a Roth, but that's not what he wants from his life. But I can't live as if I were bringing in $50,000 a year after taxes when I'm only bringing in $30,000, and still complete my own financial picture.
I know this sounds angry and rebellious, but in my own way I'm trying to do something positive for this marriage. I can't live like I am, but I think I can live with him, if I let go of the childhood concept that I have more than I deserve and should be punished for it.
[bolding mine]
you really, seriously, need to stop thinking about how this " sounds" since it is an entirely normal discussion. Where you are now sounds normal, rest assured.
edited to add: I THINK I see now what your post is about. I know, I know, you've explained it a couple of times but it took me a while. My take is that you are stepping back from micromanaging your finances and will use what you've learned in all of those micromanaging years to know how much it costs you to live. And you will throw in that amount into your communal pot to fund your life and your DH's life. Ok, that seems reasonable. I'm not sure that the proportion of money you are throwing in is right, but I don't really know how to figure that. And catherine's post about Suzy O's philosophy seems ok to me.
Williamsmith
10-9-15, 6:43am
Is what's bothering you more theoretical (meaning it sure would be nice if he handled money the same way I do) or practical (meaning there's no way I have enough money to split this up on my own and still meet my life goals?)
flowerseverywhere
10-9-15, 7:20am
I'm exhausted reading about living like this. Figuring out who ate more bananas?
Here re is my suggestion. Do not get a venti latte. It will only make you feel worse that you wasted money. I have never had a Starbucks coffee and I have survived.
But out I think what might be helpful is for you to take some long walks in nature and do some reflection.
Where do you want to be in five years? On ten years? How can you get there? then make a plan to get there.
Sometimes we we barrel through life doing things that may not make sense then suddenly you wake up one day and say, wow, I have lived on this earth for 60 years, what have I accomplished? It is way more than money in the bank. But on the other hand, as the years pass by you realize how time flies by and how important it is to be prepared for old age when you may not be able (or willing) to work at a job. At your salary your social security will be quite low. How will you support yourself in retirement or when you no longer can work?
I am watching the sun rise and some hummingbird moths in my flowers and feel so much peace. How can you find peace? Is there a better way to spend your time than dissecting receipts 15 times a week? What is that?
iris lilies
10-9-15, 7:50am
I'm exhausted reading about living like this. Figuring out who ate more bananas?
Here re is my suggestion. Do not get a venti latte. It will only make you feel worse that you wasted money. I have never had a Starbucks coffee and I have survived.
But out I think what might be helpful is for you to take some long walks in nature and do some reflection.
Where do you want to be in five years? On ten years? How can you get there? then make a plan to get there.
Sometimes we we barrel through life doing things that may not make sense then suddenly you wake up one day and say, wow, I have lived on this earth for 60 years, what have I accomplished? It is way more than money in the bank. But on the other hand, as the years pass by you realize how time flies by and how important it is to be prepared for old age when you may not be able (or willing) to work at a job. At your salary your social security will be quite low. How will you support yourself in retirement or when you no longer can work?
I am watching the sun rise and some hummingbird moths in my flowers and feel so much peace. How can you find peace? Is there a better way to spend your time than dissecting receipts 15 times a week? What is that?
kib is one of my heroes here because she is FIRE in YMOYL lingo. Due to her money management skills she was able to get out of the workforce very young. I do not want to see her jeopardize her stash, she worked way too hard to get here.
I agree with IL.
Trying to be a fair as a 'giver' when dealing with a 'taker' is nuts. He is not interested as long as he gets what he wants.
Without a sense of boundaries and some sense of jointly agreed and rigorously followed principles of responsible financial behaviour, she, as the spouse, will be liable for debts she did not incur at the age when earning is not possible.
Kib, if the man will not agree to protect you from present and future $$$$ vulnerability and liability, he is an enemy not a friend. Defend yourself!
Oh yuck, I really dislike stating such things as I truly believe that most people who genuinely love another will do everything to help and support.
Ultralight
10-9-15, 9:07am
I was married before, for about 6 years. I was in a life partnership with this woman for 11 years. Neither of us were careful with money. We were spendthrifts to the max! Though we both had a few moments of lucidity and sanity during this time. I did not take any credit cards out. She had one credit card, we even paid it off one time. But we loaded it up with debt again a year later. :(
As for my current relationship... well... that is another story.
If you read some of the threads about it, like about convincing my gf she does not need to go on pricey dates, then you know she and I are very different financially.
So I look at Kib's situation and I see my future. Sorry, Kib. It looks really stressful!
As I am not married to my gf or living together in a life partnership I can really only say what I'd like a future partnership to be.
I'd like to be kind of like The Frugalwoods couple. Maybe this way I could catch up on retirement savings and have less stress in my life when it comes to finances, job stability, emergencies of various sorts, etc. I'd prefer a relationship where my partner and I are on the same team.
From reading much of the threads on here, that is rare. So I am most likely looking toward a future as maddening as Kib's. :(
ApatheticNoMore
10-9-15, 11:08am
Maybe this way I could catch up on retirement savings and have less stress in my life when it comes to finances, job stability, emergencies of various sorts, etc.
I approach it like a single person (as I often am). Yes I have all these stresses in spades and maybe always will (no I'm not that close to the edge - I just make dumb career choices again and again - much of my dumbness isn't even on the savings side). Yes they wake me up at night and sometimes I can't sleep with worry over the future. But I'd settle for a lover I can think (that's such a draw, to be well matched intellectually) and feel with whether or not it ever solves those woes. I'd no more expect it to solve my money worries than I would expect it to solve all my psychological struggles really. Because I'll never go hungry again! even if I'm single afterall :)
Well, I'm going to weigh in, as I've always been a KIB fan (yay for FI!) and because I'm at a transitional point in my life, where I'm leaving behind a relationship where I didn't always set proper boundaries regarding money, and it led to resentment, and a financial loss for myself, and am starting a new relationship that is already quite different for money management, so I get a do-over, as it were.
In my past marriage I was generally okay with our 50/50 joint expenses split, as our salaries were similar, his job was a lot harder (and a bit more money), and we were saving around 30%-50% of our money. However, the biggest mistake I made was agreeing to split the cost of a new car 50/50 when I planned to barely drive it, and didn't want to own a vehicle. There were also some items we bought that I agreed to split the cost. Lifestyle creep was an issue for us. Also, if I'm getting petty, splitting food 50/50 in hindsight wasn't fair - him being a man and eating meat, me being a women and not eating meat. Together we spent $600 a month, alone I spend $200 a month on food. Should I care about $100 a month? Well, that times 7 years plus investment returns is a fair chunk of money. What I didn't have (and which KIB is smartly suggesting) is having a spending limit that I felt comfortable with. But I thought that worrying about money to that level wasn't good for a marriage. Well, the marriage ended, due to fundamental incompatibilities - money management being a relatively minor one of those. My expenses dropped substantially - about $600 a month or about 30%. I won't even do the math about how much more my net worth would be today if I had saved that money instead. And granted, we did live in nicer places than I could have on my own, but roommates of any type, will have a similar effect.
Now, on to new relationship. I will soon be living with my man but will not immediately have any job. My goal for us, is that neither of us loses money by my presence (while I remain living off of my savings). That means that he shouldn't have to pay anything extra because I am there. I'll pay/contribute for my own groceries, cell phone, bus pass, etc. However initially I won't be contributing to housing expenses in any substantial way. My money stash can provide about $500 a month, indefinitely. So that is my target until I have employment. Overall my preference is to keep my expenses similar to the level that they are when I was single. As far as his car, it's his choice to own one, not mine, and my use of it will be limited. So I'll contribute what seems fair depending on how much I actually use it. He has a dog. I won't be volunteering to help with those costs either. Again, his risk. I will be more careful about agreeing to any household purchases, as I'm an extreme minimalist and feel most comfortable owning almost nothing. Also, once I have a job, we will be splitting our contributions in proportion to our incomes. Likely his income will remain quite a bit higher than mine for a while, perhaps forever. If the situation reverses I'll pay more.
Most of this we've already discussed, though need to work out some actual details. So far he is very willing to pay a bit more of our joint costs (which only makes sense with his higher income, and the fact that I am moving to his city, rather than he to mine, in a good part because of the financial benefits) and also split costs with me when reasonable. He doesn't expect to support me indefinitely (and I wouldn't be comfortable if he did) but isn't pushing me to get a job immediately either, or to contribute to rent out of my savings. I think with good communication, boundaries for both of us, and just naturally matching money-management tastes, this relationship will be a lot better in that regard. But a lot of this is hard-won knowledge.
I've been married 40 years now and our finances have largely been taken care of by me. I paid the bills, figured out a budget with his input, did the saving and investing, all with his approval. Money management is my thing. I enjoy scrutinizing every receipt, etc. I will say we've always had the same financial goals and we both worked hard, did our parts to achieve them. Every big purchase we talked through together, researched it, then agreed together if it would add value to our lives, if we really needed it or wanted it enough to use our mutual money pot to buy it. We both agreed many years ago that we wanted to be debt free and we have lived that way ever since, which led to us being able to retire in our early 50's. We currently live on $2000 a month, debt free in the Midwest, in a 600 square foot lakeside cabin with one newer car, all paid cash for after the sale of our much bigger family house where we raised three kids who are all successfully launched now.... We live very simply and are not travelers at this point due to some health problems, so $2000 a month has been very doable for us. I really can't imagine not having a spouse that wasn't on board with the same financial goals in life. I think that I wouldn't have found that easy to live with, and probably couldn't have lived that way, even as much as I love my DH.
Iris, thanks for the support. I'm not so worried about "how it sounds", just clarifying that I'm not hatching a diabolical plot for theft and revenge, but seeking a good solution that keeps me from losing my mind and hopefully turns me back into someone I like. I don't care what people think, just looking for useful input rather than scolding.
A good night's sleep (at last!) helped me simplify my explanation. Old way: He has personal spending account of about $300 per month plus income from a second job. I have all my money in my own accounts. We have a joint account where the rest of his paycheck goes. Every month (which is to say, multiple times a day), I painstakingly calculate what I actually owe for my life's expenses, make a manual transfer and pay the bills. New way: Same personal accounts. Same payment process. Now I have an auto-deposit of $1666 per month from my account into the paycheck account. The "only" thing that's gone is my painstaking analysis of how I account for that $1666. Considering my life before, that's huge.
As far as budgets and tracking, I will still be watching the spending and observing whether the balance in paycheck account is viable. Right now it goes steadily up and then DH buys a new toy. I expect that to keep happening.
The situation started out similar to Kestra's, 50-50. Then interest rates started dropping and my net income started dropping, but instead of the old plan of spending less in the lean times, going back to my ultra frugal days, the shared bills didn't budge. I managed this by 1. reducing my discretionary budget to more or less $0, and 2. beginning this lunatic micro-tracking. Ok, I owed $1 for bananas, but I only ate 1, so I really owe $.25. I owe $20 for the gas bill, but he uses 75% of the hot water and is the only one to run the dryer, so I really only owe $15. Or maybe I owe $17.50 because part of that is an admin fee that we should split 50-50. Crazy waste of life energy.
WilliamSmith, I guess it's philosophical. I've had a hard time embracing Orman's (Marx's) idea of "from each according to his means" because I'm not a communist. Kidding. I have a hard time with it because I choose to be retired. On one hand this is one of my defining achievements and he knew this going in. On the other, I don't think it's fair to simply say "I am retired, so you have to pay for my life", as if "retired" was some sort of incurable disease that made me incapable of working. So anyway, the $1666 is what I actually spend, minus about 15%, which will now be used for personal discretionary purchases and inflation-offsetting reinvestment. I see it as a reasonable compromise - more than "my percentage of our combined earnings" and less than "all my earnings". I'm just going to stop calculating it.
UltraLite, it's actually your thread that provided some mental leverage in this regard. I looked at your current gf situation and thought "that doesn't sound fair at all", and I looked at other people's responses, which almost unilaterally agree with Orman. This dawning relief in the idea that it's ethical to pay for joint expenses based on what you make rather than what you spend.
For anyone in fear of my / our financial stability, don't be. I have zero debt, and no mortgage. I have assets that need to be sold that are currently costing me money. I have annuity, pension and SS that ought to double my income in about 15 years. I also have a complicated family situation that will likely change the whole ballgame within another decade or so. I have never counted on it, but the odds are favorable.
Kib, it now makes sense why you were, in a thread months ago, discussing the complication of accounting for rebate checks and such. At the time it sounded like a terrible use of life energy to obsess over things like that, and I'm glad to see that you have found a resolution.
I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you. SO is not concerned with trying to save money. He seems to be fine with the idea of working until 65 or 67 or perhaps even longer. He's also aggressively still trying to move up the corporate ladder. I, on the other hand, would retire tomorrow if it were financially viable. Maybe if I left So and moved somewhere with a low cost of living I could. What I'd rather do, though, is continue to save and be able to have a slightly less frugal retirement. My cautious goal is 14 years from now at age 62. My hopeful goal is more like 9 years from now. SO and I have separate money. We have no debt and split expenses roughly 50/50. We both make good salaries. He makes a little more than me and works a lot harder/ longer hours. He pays for somewhat more than half of our discretionary spending like meals eaten out. I track my spending but not his so my numbers are not necessarily accurate. For instance groceries get paid for by whoever happened to go to the store. I have always assumed that in the long run it works out and I don't want to spend the energy to worry about it.
At the end of the day I've come to the conclusion that I might be a little better off financially if I were single, but not much. But the benefit of that is not nearly enough to outweigh the sadness of ending my relationship, splitting up our litter mate cats, etc. After all, if I ever go a doctor again he may give me cancer and then the money won't seem nearly so important...
Ultralight
10-9-15, 1:52pm
At the end of the day I've come to the conclusion that I might be a little better off financially if I were single, but not much. But the benefit of that is not nearly enough to outweigh the sadness of ending my relationship...
I totally get this. After a handful long-term relationships ended in painful splits and a divorce from an 11 year life partnership I feel like I am too old and too tired and too emotionally brittle to handle yet another break-up.
jp1 -- :~)
I think I would have a totally different concept of how to run the calculator if I were still working. Sounds like you are managing just fine. Part of my issue here is that I was (am) so passionate about FIRE; for better or worse that's something really, really important to me.
ApatheticNoMore
10-9-15, 3:15pm
At the end of the day I've come to the conclusion that I might be a little better off financially if I were single, but not much. But the benefit of that is not nearly enough to outweigh the sadness of ending my relationship...
not really. You spend the money dealing with loneliness and of course on plentiful lattes :), to hang out with the people you do know because loneliness (kidding about the lattes although I see no glory in sitting home staring at the wall in order to remain latte uncontaminated, rather than meeting someone for coffee). Still combining finances is woah.
flowerseverywhere
10-10-15, 6:50am
This discussion has brought up some interesting points. Would you be satisfied with a life that KIB describes if you could retire at a young age and live minimally? I think that is one of the basic concepts of YMOYL. One of my friends is working until 62 because her retirement budget includes $10,000+ per year for travel, plus a new car every four years and dining out a few times a week. I suspect most of us are in between. I see this discussion frequently at the Mr Money Mustache forums.
If if you are happy, I am glad for you. I could not do my charity work on your budget, nor travel to see my kids so it would be not nearly enough for me, hence I worked longer to pad the basic FI Budget. Also, I think it would put strain on my marriage. DH likes some electronic toys and cable TV to watch his sports. I would never give up travelling to see my grandchildren. It certainly is a lot for each of us consider as you contemplate the life that is truly worth living .
rosarugosa
10-10-15, 7:19am
I am with Flowers in that "in between" place. I'm certainly not hard-core frugal by any stretch. I'm the CFO at our house. DH & I are on the same page for the most part, but he's not nearly as interested in our finances as I am. However, he's content to leave the money management to me and certainly doesn't actively work against what I'm trying to achieve. It did take him longer than it should have (IMHO) to realize that my budgeting/financial management was the basis upon which he is able to work part-time at a job he really enjoys but that pays very little. I consider that to be my great gift to him, and it was very gratifying when he finally realized it.
Having a spouse or life partner whom you really love, trust and share interests with can be one of the major components to a happy life, so I totally get KIB not wanting to just ditch her DH because he isn't on the same page financially. However, I'm not as far along on the frugal/simple living spectrum, and I'm still a full-time worker, so that colors my perspective, no doubt.
catherine
10-10-15, 8:00am
This discussion has brought up some interesting points. Would you be satisfied with a life that KIB describes if you could retire at a young age and live minimally? I think that is one of the basic concepts of YMOYL. One of my friends is working until 62 because her retirement budget includes $10,000+ per year for travel, plus a new car every four years and dining out a few times a week. I suspect most of us are in between. I see this discussion frequently at the Mr Money Mustache forums.
If if you are happy, I am glad for you. I could not do my charity work on your budget, nor travel to see my kids so it would be not nearly enough for me, hence I worked longer to pad the basic FI Budget. Also, I think it would put strain on my marriage. DH likes some electronic toys and cable TV to watch his sports. I would never give up travelling to see my grandchildren. It certainly is a lot for each of us consider as you contemplate the life that is truly worth living .
Great points, and that is also the crux of YMOYL: making sure your life energy is going only towards things of value, and that's a personal decision. I don't think Joe or Vicki had children, and I do think it's EXTREMELY difficult to go FIRE if you have kids.
flowerseverywhere, I'm with you in that I do want to be able to visit my kids/grandkids when I want to. Travel is nice, but I'm fine with travel on the cheap once a year. I do enjoy giving modest amounts of money to causes I believe in. I DON'T need the new car every four years. I'm thinking I might have one more car in my lifetime.
I think it also depends a LOT on what you do for a living. If you find a lot of value in that, then why not work? If you don't, then you can make the choice as to how aggressively you want to go after FI. For some lucky people, work isn't like work--they do it even when they don't need the money because it provides them with personal fulfillment.
I truly feel that I have the best of both worlds being a freelancer. I can call the shots, and I can turn down work to take time off. I work from home and while I'm really going pedal to the metal now in order to pay back debts, if clients still want to hire me when I'm 75, I'll take on the work. Why not? In the future world in which maybe there is a new economic model, I would wish a more independent work life for many, many more people.
The early retirement concept like FI in YMOYL or Early Retirement Extreme are really for people who are necessarily bound to their employers--in jobs they may not enjoy. Of course, anyone would benefit from the basic principles of simple living, frugal living and really examining where your hard-earned money is going.
ETA: I don't want to minimize the huge accomplishment of being able to retire early--kib is tremendously inspiring to me as well, as are others on this forum who are truly walking the walk.
I think you've made a wise decision. Questions:
1. Have you discussed this with him?
2. Have you negotiated that his desired lifestyle will not be maintained on a pile of debt (that you could be saddled with if something happens to him?)
I ask becauase a friend of mine 15y ago really wanted a fancy new house. Sam told me: I told her I would give her $1000/month (they were mortgage free) and anything on top of that she had to pay and then she could build whatever she wanted). They did it and they are both happy. That was debt, but she's still around so Sam isn't stuck with it yet.
Zoe Girl
10-10-15, 11:38am
I am reading this with interest as a divorced person. Money was a hug factor actually and I feel no guilt about getting a substantial amount of money from my ex to support me taking care of the kids in a lifestyle that is nicer than I would have on my own. I still have some income from that for a few more months (my feelings about what I earn are separate). After that his income will easily be 4 times what I make but as long as I can have some ease I can be okay.
Being on my own for 11 years, wow, value that relationship. Especially if you can work out money. I am not hearing anything about manipulation or deceit around money so I figure it is all pretty workable! I just love stories that show people can work out money and take care of each other, that it is not being used as a tool to run the relationship. And this is a good reminder when I struggle and think I could have stayed married and my kids would have college money that I really could not.
BTW, I love my Starbucks. I wouldn't retire before I had money to go to a coffee shop every week even if I am by myself. Just to get out and breath air with people who do not need something from me!!
iris lilies
10-10-15, 12:11pm
OP, I think it's cute that you are putting in such a deliberate, specific amount, $1,666. It's funny and still shows that you are the money maven.
Were it me, in my wholistic view of "just show me the executive overview, dammit, I don't want the freakin details" I'd throw in a nice round $1500 and assume my tatas are consideration in kind.
This is is meant is a loving, cheerful way.:~)
Multiply $1666.67 x 12 months and you'll see where it comes from. Not so geeky as it sounds. :~)
There are a few details of this that may tarnish my extreme retirement image a little. Part of that money goes into dedicated savings - we take a very nice trip every five years, there is a small but steady build-up toward an eventual car replacement, and also currently a push for savings toward HVAC upgrade. I do go visit my folks 2x a year. They pay for most of it, that's my "christmas present". (Oh Thank You, Santa! >8) But since I do feel it's right to maintain contact and they are too old to travel, it is nice that it's not a financial burden on me.)
When I retired I told my friends that I would be a "time philanthropist" and I still hold to that. I don't have a lot of extra cash to give away, but I do have elbow grease. And since I don't have kids, some deserving institution may be the beneficiary of a whopping amount some day.
Gardnr, I don't think we are going to have A Talk, because the understanding all along is that DH can spend his money as he wishes. While he buys plenty of stuff that I never would, he's still well within his means and is saving at a very traditional rate toward retirement at a very traditional age. If I were to see the balance start going down in a way that indicated debt around the corner, I would caution him to rein it in. As it is, he makes plenty to pay an appropriate amount based on income rather than spending, and still have plenty of discretionary income.
-- I just have to say, the last few days have been lovely. I cannot believe the sea change in my attitude toward him now that I'm not keeping track of every minute wrong-in-karen's-world-of-zero-waste-and-zero-cost moment. Lovin' life!
Congratulations, Kib, You have made a difficult change and I'm glad you are reaping the benefits of it already. It is very hard to let go of control.
pinkytoe
10-11-15, 10:32am
This thread reminds me of a quote I saw recently (maybe it was here?)which has been very helpful to me: "Allow me to surrender"
We are often under the illusion that we have control over so many things - our finances, health, etc - so surrendering to a situation can be a very good way to release stress.
Williamsmith
10-15-15, 7:01am
kib,
This may mean nothing to you, I'm just verbalizing a thought. Your situation reminds me of one of my favorite reads, Rocket Boys, a book by Homer Hickam, Jr. a native of West Virginia and an autobiography of growing up in a coal mining town experimenting in rocketry and somewhat miraculously becoming a NASA engineer. Well, his life doesn't remind me of your situation but his mothers seems to have a thread to compare.
Elsie Hickam, Sonnys mother, supports her sons academic pursuits at a time when his father, a mining supervisor seems to be concentrating on his brothers football and working in the mine. She also has a dream of owning a small bungalow in Myrtle Beach where she envisions her and her husband could retire and enjoy the seaside environment.
Her husband has no interest but she sticks to her dream and while secretly squirreling away her own money she keeps inspired by painting a seascape mural on the wall of her house in West Virginia. Her husband never come around to like the idea before he gets sick but Elsie does achieve her goal and realizes a retirement in Myrtle Beach complete with the beach house.
In other words, it wasnt a perfect fulfillment but maybe the original dream was little like forcing a square peg in a round hole.
I'd say the difference is (guessing here) Elsie didn't have an epiphany that she needed to live on a beach, meet a guy and tell him this, have him say "awesome" and then find out after the wedding he thought she said "live with a bitch". ;)
But the point is taken, what's done is done and I seem to have run out of bungalow-building energy at the moment. My new financial strategy has been a relief, I'm still enjoying the benefits of one less tangled knot to stress about and so far no chickens have come home to roost (in other words, we don't seem headed for the poorhouse even without micromanagement). DH got his new bike yesterday, a used Honda CB500X, reasonable price and he's pleased. I've decided to focus on certain aspects of the medical community as my enemy, which makes for more harmony at home. Life is moving along.
Teacher Terry
10-15-15, 8:13pm
As someone that has been married 3x's & always the initiator of divorces I would rather have some $ struggles if the relationship was good in all other ways. I am now happily married & occasionally we do have difference of opinion about $ but if someone not ruining you financially I think it is worth it. I would contribute 70% & no more. That way he can figure out what he can actually afford in regard to luxuries. Hugs:))
I understand, my husband smokes and I have been asking him to quit for years. Telling him how when our term life insurance runs out it will be so expensive for more. And how it would be impossible for him to retire early if he continued to smoke because of healthcare insurance. Well, he just turned 63 and tried to blame me for the fact he cannot retire..........well, HELLO.
Decided that I will not offer to help pay for his health insurance, he can tough it out for a few more years.
Such is life and I am not feeling guilty over it.
Ultralight
10-26-15, 11:22am
I understand, my husband smokes and I have been asking him to quit for years. Telling him how when our term life insurance runs out it will be so expensive for more. And how it would be impossible for him to retire early if he continued to smoke because of healthcare insurance. Well, he just turned 63 and tried to blame me for the fact he cannot retire..........well, HELLO.
Decided that I will not offer to help pay for his health insurance, he can tough it out for a few more years.
Such is life and I am not feeling guilty over it.
Tough love, right there!
Tough love, right there!
I should have added I still work fulltime..............
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