View Full Version : Ay Carumba...this time the shooting hits closer to home
gimmethesimplelife
10-9-15, 8:47pm
I am really down about the shooting early this AM in Flagstaff, Arizona, at Northern Arizona University. This is where I went to school and hold a BA in Marketing from. What is wrong with the world today? Honestly....when I was young we did not have anywhere near the number of shootings that we have today in schools, elementary through college. And of course there was another shooting today somewhere in Texas at another school, with this all being on the heels of what took place in Oregon recently. I know there are many here who believe in the right to bear arms - great - that is your choice and it is within the law, great. How do we prevent and or deal with situations such as the above, or is this a new normal we must accept in America, partly due to the right to bear arms? What do you think? Rob
I know there are many here who believe in the right to bear arms - great - that is your choice and it is within the law, great. How do we prevent and or deal with situations such as the above, or is this a new normal we must accept in America, partly due to the right to bear arms? What do you think? RobThe right to be bear arms was suspended at each of those locations. Violence has always been a part of every society, but intentionally setting up victim zones seems counterproductive.
TVRodriguez
10-9-15, 9:38pm
The right to be bear arms was suspended at each of those locations. Violence has always been a part of every society, but intentionally setting up victim zones seems counterproductive.
Oh my goodness, the Right to Bear Arms is supposed to be in a well regulated militia! It's in the first friggin words of the second amendment.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
None of these people shooting up schools are part of a well regulated anything! Not to mention that Thomas and Scalia, who like to imagine that life hasn't changed since 1789(other than slavery), keep conveniently forgetting about the advances in guns since then. A musket is a far cry from what is readily available to today's shooter.
The NRA needs a revolution. Our nation's gun ownership is disgusting.
Pardon the exclamation points. I've gotten into the wine tonight.
Oh my goodness, the Right to Bear Arms is supposed to be in a well regulated militia! It's in the first friggin words of the second amendment.
You got it backwards, it's not restricted to an existing militia, the entire populace was considered a potential militia. It might help to understand the thoughts of those who put it there and ratified it in the several states:
"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788
"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787
"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves…and include, according to the past and general usuage of the states, all men capable of bearing arms… "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Federal Farmer No. 18, January 25, 1788
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams, Massachusetts Ratifying Convention, 1788
"A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined..."
- George Washington, First Annual Address, to both House of Congress, January 8, 1790
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776
etc.
etc.
etc.
TVRodriguez
10-9-15, 10:29pm
No, Alan, those quotes do not help your case. "A well regulated militia" are the words in the Constitution. You're GW quote includes the phrase "but disciplined," your Sam Adams Quote refers To "Peaceable Citizens," your Richard Henry Lee quote refers to "a militia when properly formed." And none of your quotes comes from the US Constitution.
I think you may not understand the meaning of 'militia'. It is not a standing army, it is a civilian force which may be used to supplement a regular army.
Something else many folks don't consider, when I was in the military near the end of the Vietnam conflict, I took the following oath:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
You know, I have never forsaken nor been asked to forsake that oath, so I am still bound to it. In your mind, is that enough to consider me and all other veterans a 'militia' or would you restrict my ability to bear arms?
gimmethesimplelife
10-10-15, 12:23am
I just read online on yahoo.com news that Obama may be sidestepping Congress by issuing an Executive Order to require background checks, extensive background checks, before one is able to buy guns at some future date. This worries me a bit, it really does. I am all for Obama doing this which should surprise none of the regulars here by now.....why I am worried is that such an action is really going to anger a certain segment of the population in a deep and visceral way and I don't like to think of potential consequences if Obama does go through with such an executive order. I really wish in some ways we never had had the right to bear arms to begin with - it is not the same world since this law was drafted and yet we are still stuck with this law and lots and lots of support for keeping it as is. I don't see any real solution here as the right to bear arms is so engrained in American thought and culture. Rob
mschrisgo2
10-10-15, 4:10am
The people who will submit to a background check are NOT the ones we need to worry about! Law abiding citizens don't go shoot up schools!!
flowerseverywhere
10-10-15, 7:03am
The people who will submit to a background check are NOT the ones we need to worry about! Law abiding citizens don't go shoot up schools!!
but how many of these recent shooting have been by people who did not have criminal records or mental health backgrounds? Or with stolen guns? I have not looked very closely but in perusing the news it does not seem like these shooters are in and out of Lockup.
What at interests me is that I cannot recall one instance of a young woman being the shooter. The common profile seems to be young men, often quiet loner types. But there have been all kinds of profiles. Will a background check include seeing where you visit on the Internet and how many friends you have?
I thought what was particularly cruel was the recent accusation by I think it was Ben Carson that the Oregon shooter's father was at fault. Talk about a generalization without having any idea about what went on in that young mans life day to day, year to year.
Ultralight
10-10-15, 8:29am
Look, I am, pragmatically speaking, a leftist. How leftist? Look to your left. See me? No. Take out your binoculars. Okay, that little white dot way, way down there. That is me!
Idealistically, I am an anarchist.
So with that said, I do not think that criminal background checks are the answer. To think they are is actually rather foolish.
Good gun-owning folks should not mind getting a criminal background check for their hunting rifle or that revolver they want to go plinking with on the weekend, etc. It is lightening-fast and might weed out the occasional dumb-ass. But this is not at the heart of the issue.
Lots of nutjobs have no criminal record at all. And they shoot places and people up. So the criminal background checks do nothing to prevent this.
I see an executive order to have these massive extensive background checks as a way to soften people up for more gun control later.
The nature of these subsequent gun control efforts is what I am most concerned about.
We need to get guns out of the hands of the mentally ill and the druggies.
So why not have drug tests and mental health assessments for gun buyers? I think this could really help.
Your pee is hot? No gun!
You are nutty as hell? No gun.
Now, I think that in our current paradigm we'll always have criminals acquiring guns illegally. Dealing with these ill-gotten guns is an entirely different issue than dealing with these school shooting types who have mental illness and/or no criminal background yet.
I say all this as a gun owner, occasional hunter, and sometimes clay target blaster. As an extreme minimalist, I can say with confidence that one of my more prized possessions is an old Browning Pump Shotgun my dad gave me.
But here is the real zinger: We need to change gun culture in this nation. That is the real answer! This has to be long-term and broadly applied in earnest.
My place of employment, a state university, is currently embroiled in the campus carry discussion as it was currently OK'd by legislators. There are professors who are retiring early as they don't wish to work in a gun-toting environment. There are large petitions being passed around against it with thousands of signatures. I too am glad I will be retiring in a few months as the whole concept of a gune for everyone feels like the wild wild west to me. But then again, on the rare occasion when I turn the TV on at night, the level of violence portrayed on weekly series and proliferation of crime shows is shocking to me. What a strange culture we are becoming:(
My place of employment, a state university, is currently embroiled in the campus carry discussion as it was currently OK'd by legislators. There are professors who are retiring early as they don't wish to work in a gun-toting environment. There are large petitions being passed around against it with thousands of signatures. I too am glad I will be retiring in a few months as the whole concept of a gune for everyone feels like the wild wild west to me. But then again, on the rare occasion when I turn the TV on at night, the level of violence portrayed on weekly series and proliferation of crime shows is shocking to me. What a strange culture we are becoming:(
Pinkytoe, I don't know where you live, but if campus carry was recently approved by your state, then I suspect you've already got a number of civilians in your state's population who carry.
There have been a number of incidents in the area around where I work, topped off by the very recent theft of an empty trailer backed into our dock about a week ago. Surveillance video has shown people "casing the joint" multiple times late at night (after 9pm or so), checking all the doors, peering in the windows to see if anyone was in the building, etc. We've now been forbidden to be in the office late at night, unless there is more than one person. I used to stay quite late. One of our managers is a former MP, and he's asked if he could carry in the building. Nope. We can keep pistols in our cars, out of sight, but nothing in the building.
catherine
10-10-15, 10:26am
Your pee is hot? No gun!
You are nutty as hell? No gun.
This made me laugh.. :)
I ALMOST agree with you on all your points.. I asked DH why people are SO against a simple registration process for guns, just like we do for things like cars, marriages, and dogs. These are weapons, for crissake, not furry friends! He said that many gun owners are fearful of the "slippery slope" that you mentioned, and that if there were a coup in this country, the government would know where to find all the citizens' weapons and would remove them. I don't think that's a good enough answer, but I'm not a gun owner, nor am I a prepper, or fearful of a military coup. I do think your points about the mentally ill and drug abusers is a valid one.
ETA: Actually, maybe not. Here's an article by a the head of the American Psychiatric Association (http://alert.psychnews.org/2015/10/apa-president-calls-for-gun-control.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PsychiatricNewsAlert+%28Psych iatric+News+Alert%29) about guns and mental illness--coincidentally popped up on my FB feed just now. She raises some interesting points about guns and the mentally ill as well as how to take reasonable measures to prevent gun violence.
But here is the real zinger: We need to change gun culture in this nation. That is the real answer! This has to be long-term and broadly applied in earnest.
What do you mean, exactly? What is "gun culture"?
Williamsmith
10-10-15, 10:59am
UltraliteAngler,
i just took my temperature. I thought I was getting sick. Nope. Just fine. There must be some other explanation for me agreeing with everything you just posted on gun control. See, you are capable of cogent thinking. In the future I'll pay more attention to your other ramblings. Perhaps a seed a wisdom will be found.
"Gun culture". In the US relates to actual historical culture - second amendment and that whole Revolutionary War thing that progressives want to edit from history because it's just so inconvenient to the sales pitch of today. And pop culture which is all the shoot em up, television and movie and rap fantasy entertainment produced ironically by the so called enlightened left. And the truly polarized groups of gun owners who in one camp believe in responsible mature firearm ownership, possession and use and the other gun nut idiots that take the second amendment as license to act irresponsibly with their firearms and who give all the credible sober firearms owners a real bad name. All this to me is gun culture and its a real mixed up bag.
As a former law enforcement officer who arrested plenty of people for gun law violations.....I will go out on a limb and say that we have the laws in place to deal with this problem right now. Unfortunately we don't have the will to do it. Empty the jails of non violent offenders and replace them with gun toting thugs and you will have a good start. Right now, gun culture, allows way too many people to get away with violent crimes committed with firearms.
As far as the whole militia definition goes........this is my state constitution declaration on gun ownership:
Pennsylvania: The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned. Art. 1, § 21 (enacted 1790, art. IX, § 21).
1776: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; And that the military should be kept under strict subordination, to, and governed by, the civil power. Declaration of Rights, cl. XIII.
any questions?
This PDF is interesting and puts out myths and facts about guns, crime, etc. Lots of statistics.
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/7.0/gun-facts-7.0-screen.pdf
bekkilyn
10-10-15, 11:43am
As a former law enforcement officer who arrested plenty of people for gun law violations.....I will go out on a limb and say that we have the laws in place to deal with this problem right now. Unfortunately we don't have the will to do it. Empty the jails of non violent offenders and replace them with gun toting thugs and you will have a good start. Right now, gun culture, allows way too many people to get away with violent crimes committed with firearms.
any questions?
Highly agree with you here.
JaneV2.0
10-10-15, 12:17pm
Drugs? Which ones? Lots of people wandering around out there are high on Pharmaceuticals of all kinds.
Alcohol? Great idea, except for the majority of us who enjoy an occasional drink and don't go out looking for a fight.
Marijuana? I doubt many wild-eyed shooters are cannabis connoisseurs, including countless oldsters looking for relief from their aches and pains.
Meth? Bath salts? More like it.
Psychoactive drugs like SSRIs? Now you're talking. There's a theory out there that many--or most--of these mass shooters are, or have been, prescribed one or more of these. Especially in young people, they are known to cause suicidal ideation. And if you're prone to violent thoughts, and a touch of grandiosity--hey, why not take a bunch of other people with you and make headlines?
You won't hear this theory put forth in the media, because it might hurt Pharma's bottom line, but I think it's a valid one.
As for me, I'm not part of the gun culture, so I'll enjoy the occasional glass of brandy or toke of Cannatonic undisturbed here in my little corner of the world.
ApatheticNoMore
10-10-15, 1:38pm
Drugs? Which ones?
The only drug I've seen a Jekyll and Hyde type transformation to violence in another person is Xanax (in large doses it goes without saying). Scary stuff that is. But I suppose the mechanism of action might be similar to alcohol for those who for whatever reason seem to be "angry drunks" (only most who use alcohol aren't "angry drunks" of course).
Psychoactive drugs like SSRIs? Now you're talking. There's a theory out there that many--or most--of these mass shooters are, or have been, prescribed one or more of these. Especially in young people, they are known to cause suicidal ideation. And if you're prone to violent thoughts, and a touch of grandiosity--hey, why not take a bunch of other people with you and make headlines?
Yes but most anyone psychologically troubled is going to have psyche meds pushed on them sooner or later (as soon as they seek mental help of any kind even if it's just with a social worker or a talk therapist, who can only suggest and not prescribe - sooner or later drugs will be suggested and often heavily pressured). And these are usually very troubled people so they are likely to have sought mental help. Also for most people I think there's actually a pretty big wall of separation between considering suicide and considering murder (though of course by definition these killers are not normal people). Aren't SSRI's prescribed elsewhere? Why only the mass murders in the U.S.? Or is it the combo of them AND guns? Or drugs, guns AND American culture? Now we're getting into too many confounding variables :) Of course I do think they may be prescribed *more* in the U.S. than elsewhere but by now those things are global, aren't they? Does anyone know rates of prescription globally? And of course the *overwhelming* majority of people taking SSRIs whether or not they are helpful for whatever they are taking them for, do not become mass murders (there may be some kind of biological individuality here). I'd almost like to see tests of SSRIs on a primate other than humans that is sometimes violent (chimps maybe, not bonobos, they'll just lose their sex drive :)).
As for me, I'm not part of the gun culture, so I'll enjoy the occasional glass of brandy or toke of Cannatonic undisturbed here in my little corner of the world.
Sometimes my suspicions are these people are not really part of any "culture" but more likely to be deeply socially isolated and not just the loner young men but their families as well. It may be the absence of culture really. But lacking that people will grab on to anything even whatever is on t.v., as people do need guideposts to make sense of the world. So I suppose they are washed over by the toxic brew (worse than the water near Fukishima!) of American culture and ideology or any of it's little subsets. The thing about misfits is well most aren't killers, but they are also often the only one's that see through and question the violence that is part of and not seen by the mainstream.
catherine
10-10-15, 2:36pm
This PDF is interesting and puts out myths and facts about guns, crime, etc. Lots of statistics.
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/7.0/gun-facts-7.0-screen.pdf
Thanks, Tradd. I'll read it with an open mind.
I did find an NBC News piece (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/one-three-americans-own-guns-culture-factor-study-finds-n384031) that defined gun culture as part of a survey that was conducted among 4,000 people to determine how many people own guns, and it was determined that gun culture is strongly correlated with gun ownership (I guess that sounds like an obvious finding, but it's still interesting)
It's not clear which comes first, a pro-gun culture or owning guns, they added. "Social gun culture was measured using four questions that assessed whether an individual's 'social circle thinks less of them if they did not own a gun', 'family thinks less of them not owning a gun', 'social life with family involves guns' and 'social life with friends involves guns'," they explained.
"In conclusion, we found (a) strong association between social gun culture and gun ownership. Gun cultures may need to be considered for public health strategies that aim to change gun ownership in the USA."
I think the geographic differences in the study are very interesting, and not wholly surprising. It made me think of a good friend of mine. Her daughter became engaged to a guy and shortly after that, my friend found out that he had three guns. My friend went berserk--it was if she learned that he was a pedophile. It was a family crisis. While she and I are demographically and attitudinally very similar, I tried to reason with her and make her understand that she may be looking at the situation with a jaundiced eye, and his gun ownership likely has nothing to do with his character, but I couldn't make her feel better about it.
I personally don't have any friends or relatives that own a gun (to my knowledge anyway). Guns are not a topic of conversation, ever. They are not part of our world at all. But obviously, I'm in my own bubble, as others are in theirs.
I was more thana little rattled when I heard that DD's fiancee (and now her husband) had several guns. And that they actually went to target practice together. So out of character with what I thought DD was into. I just try not to think about it.
If the government wants to use their military might against us, no matter how well-armed we are, we're done. Maybe you could make a case for muskets against cannons, but AK-47s against rocket launchers is a harder sell.
Gardenarian
10-10-15, 4:02pm
I hate to see this turn into a guns/no guns debate. Rob, I am also very disturbed by the recent violence.
I live quite near the shooting in Oregon. The young man had a history of severe mental illness. He had 14 guns in his house, all legally obtained.
Coming from the Bay Area, I'm shocked by the response of many people here. They think what we need is MORE guns.
It is clear from looking at the records that there are far more shootings in places where guns are more readily available. Where is the logic here?
Why does ANYONE need an assault rifle? Why do we allow whackos to have guns? I don't want to hear about the constitution. The constitution was not handed down by God; it was written by a bunch of revolutionaries over 200 years ago.
Also disturbing are the events that have followed the shooting. There have been numerous bomb threats that have caused the closing of many high schools and colleges in the area. Everyone is already shaken by the shootings; either someone has decided to keep the action going for 'fun' or maybe some crazy students think this is a good way to get out of going to class.
iris lilies
10-10-15, 4:06pm
Thanks, Tradd. I'll read it with an open mind.
I did find an NBC News piece (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/one-three-americans-own-guns-culture-factor-study-finds-n384031) that defined gun culture as part of a survey that was conducted among 4,000 people to determine how many people own guns, and it was determined that gun culture is strongly correlated with gun ownership (I guess that sounds like an obvious finding, but it's still interesting)
I think the geographic differences in the study are very interesting, and not wholly surprising. It made me think of a good friend of mine. Her daughter became engaged to a guy and shortly after that, my friend found out that he had three guns. My friend went berserk--it was if she learned that he was a pedophile. It was a family crisis. While she and I are demographically and attitudinally very similar, I tried to reason with her and make her understand that she may be looking at the situation with a jaundiced eye, and his gun ownership likely has nothing to do with his character, but I couldn't make her feel better about it.
I personally don't have any friends or relatives that own a gun (to my knowledge anyway). Guns are not a topic of conversation, ever. They are not part of our world at all. But obviously, I'm in my own bubble, as others are in theirs.
Those questions about attitudes toward gun culture are VERY interesting.
i think of myself as not having a gun. I say here on this site that I don't have a gun. Yet, there are guns in my house. Doh! But other than the BB gun in the garage, I am only vaguely aware of where they are here in storage. They are long guns, hunting guns. Just a couple of days ago my friend and I were discussing guns because we are thinking about taking a shooting class, and whEn I mentioned that we don't have guns she called me on it.
Well she is right, in my mind, hunting guns aren't really guns. EVERYBODY has hunting guns, don't they? Unless they are total city people, that is. I take men having guns for granted.
But then, my brother has crossed that line and he has a concealed carry permit for handguns. So I have looked down on him, a little, for that sitting as he does in no-minority suburbia. He thinks I am stupid for living where I do in murder city without a gun. So I guess we are equal there. But I also,kinda of think it's cool that he has a gun, our liberal parents would have been unhappy, so that there is a positive. Haha.
just my rambling thought about gun attitudes in my immediate world, no real point.
Iris Liiy I, too, think of us as non gun owners, but my husband has two rifles, a shot gun and a BB gun I think. They are in a closet. The ammunition is on the shelf. I think if I had young children coming to visit I would have to do something to keep them locked up...but then again how could a little kid take it and know what to do? Maybe I am foolish. He doesn't hunt any more so they are unnecessary. In fact, he has shot a few groundhogs, but even that isn't often. But a handgun? Whatever for? We do live way out in the country, but there have been break ins etc. Mostly machinery and metals stolen. Would a gun make me feel safer? I don't think so. So I live in my little bubble and hope nothing happens to change my mind.
Ultralight
10-10-15, 5:02pm
If the government wants to use their military might against us, no matter how well-armed we are, we're done. Maybe you could make a case for muskets against cannons, but AK-47s against rocket launchers is a harder sell.
Two words: Viet Cong.
All the military might for years was put on them by the US. The Viet Cong still won the Vietnam war.
One of my friends' husbands may own a gun; he used to hunt occasionally. My father owned one back in the forties. I remember he bagged a duck once. I was very young, and I remember the three of us gathered around the kitchen table staring at it. Then my mother said something like "If you want to eat that, you can pluck it yourself." I don't remember ever eating duck.
Other than that, I don't think I know anyone with a weapon. But you never know unless there's a suicide or an episode of domestic violence or some other catastrophe.
flowerseverywhere
10-10-15, 5:17pm
Have very high taxes on guns and even higher on bulletts, except for hunting rifle type guns. It is insane you can get a gun that shoots multiple rounds like assault weapons.
Per the world health organization it worked to decrease smoking rates.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/TOPICS/EXTHEALTHNUTRITIONANDPOPULATION/EXTETC/0,,contentMDK:20365226~menuPK:478891~pagePK:148956 ~piPK:216618~theSitePK:376601,00.html
Ultralight
10-10-15, 6:00pm
One of my friends' husbands may own a gun; he used to hunt occasionally. My father owned one back in the forties. I remember he bagged a duck once. I was very young, and I remember the three of us gathered around the kitchen table staring at it. Then my mother said something like "If you want to eat that, you can pluck it yourself." I don't remember ever eating duck.
Other than that, I don't think I know anyone with a weapon. But you never know unless there's a suicide or an episode of domestic violence or some other catastrophe.
I harvested a mallard a few years ago, along with a Brant, while pass shooting. I can tell you this: You should have eaten that duck! Yum! The mallard made the most delicious soup I have ever eaten in my life.
iris lilies
10-10-15, 6:39pm
Two words: Viet Cong.
All the military might for years was put on them by the US. The Viet Cong still won the Vietnam war.
No, it was not all the military might, not at all. Guerrillas are tough to combat because of the collateral damage. If you bombed their world, you take out women, children, etc. hiding behind trees and sniping at the establishment enemy is very effective, just ask our founding fathers who liberated us from the British in 1776.
Ultralight
10-10-15, 6:54pm
No, it was not all the military might, not at all. Guerrillas are tough to combat because of the collateral damage. If you bombed their world, you take out women, children, etc. hiding behind trees and sniping at the establishment enemy is very effective, just ask our founding fathers who liberated us from the British in 1776.
What I meant was the US used its massive military might on the Viet Cong. Yet the Viet Cong still won the Vietnam War.
You could make a case for Afghanistan being triumphant, also. I guess we could keep plinking away at them until they got tired, but I'm pretty sure we won't have to.
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
Interesting study regarding guns from Harvard.
Ultralight
10-10-15, 10:58pm
You could make a case for Afghanistan being triumphant, also. I guess we could keep plinking away at them until they got tired, but I'm pretty sure we won't have to.
War is horrible. I wish our species would stop doing it.
catherine
10-11-15, 8:14am
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
Interesting study regarding guns from Harvard.
I read almost the whole study (feeling guilty because I have a report to finish before my son's wedding).. but it was very compelling and credible.
There were a number of interesting points, which I won't list here because I do have to get to this darned report, but the bottom line to me, crudely and oversimplifying the cogent message of the piece, was the saying "Guns don't kill people; people kill people." When I sat and mulled this over I thought about a "weapon" that's near and dear to my heart: alcohol. Prohibition has shown that banning alcohol does NOT work. You can have a liquor store on every corner, but only a small subset of people are going to wind up killing themselves or others by abusing it. Fewer liquor stores are not going to mean fewer alcoholics. I don't think I'd be in favor of having some kind of a special card indicating that I've never had a substance abuse issue when I walk into a store to buy liquor. That seems ridiculous.
However, I still have a hard time reconciling putting semi-automatic and automatic weapons into the hands of just anyone, and to link these two thoughts together, along with the article from the head of the APA, I'm thinking that keeping guns out of the hands of substance abusers would be a good start. And I still feel that registering firearms is a reasonable expectation.
My big WHY is why do these horrible mass murders and shootings occur? What is this "gun culture" that UltraAngler mentioned? It feels like the seams in our culture are tearing and out of these rips come the disenfranchised, the angry, and hopeless, and the mentally ill. Not sure how to fix that.
I read almost the whole study (feeling guilty because I have a report to finish before my son's wedding).. but it was very compelling and credible.
There were a number of interesting points, which I won't list here because I do have to get to this darned report, but the bottom line to me, crudely and oversimplifying the cogent message of the piece, was the saying "Guns don't kill people; people kill people." When I sat and mulled this over I thought about a "weapon" that's near and dear to my heart: alcohol. Prohibition has shown that banning alcohol does NOT work. You can have a liquor store on every corner, but only a small subset of people are going to wind up killing themselves or others by abusing it. Fewer liquor stores are not going to mean fewer alcoholics. I don't think I'd be in favor of having some kind of a special card indicating that I've never had a substance abuse issue when I walk into a store to buy liquor. That seems ridiculous.
However, I still have a hard time reconciling putting semi-automatic and automatic weapons into the hands of just anyone, and to link these two thoughts together, along with the article from the head of the APA, I'm thinking that keeping guns out of the hands of substance abusers would be a good start. And I still feel that registering firearms is a reasonable expectation.
My big WHY is why do these horrible mass murders and shootings occur? What is this "gun culture" that UltraAngler mentioned? It feels like the seams in our culture are tearing and out of these rips come the disenfranchised, the angry, and hopeless, and the mentally ill. Not sure how to fix that.
To start off with, automatic weapons don't get into the hands of just everyone. They are almost all in the hands of the police and military. Some civilians have them, but you have to go through a long, expensive process with both the ATF and local law enforcement. I wish people would get this. The "evil black rifles" so many get their knickers in a twist about, that civilians have are SEMI-auto. One round fired per trigger pull. Second of all, folks seem to think semi-auto technology is some evil modern invention. It's not. Semi-auto pistols first went into marketable form with the 1911 semi-auto pistol in 1911, made for the US military.
Our entire culture is rotten, and blaming the shootings solely on gun culture misses the mark. Going back just 60 years, there were more intact families, crazies were generally locked up (without the dangerous drugs that can cause such reactions in adolescents). Guns (predominantly long guns) were readily available and accessible to young folks. Stories abound on the gun forums I frequent of teenagers taking rifles or shotguns with them to school, leaving them in vehicle or with the principal during the day, and going hunting right after school. This was up into the 80s in some places. You didn't hear of any of these kids shooting up their schools. As much as many people poo poo it, I'm sure the violent video games and other media have something to do with it. Interestingly, I know parents who are very anti-gun, won't let their kids even go over to homes where there are locked up guns, yet they have no issues with their kids consuming very violent video games and other media. I've actually called the parents on this, but they don't get the disconnect.
Firearms of any type aren't supposed to be in the hands of substance abusers. ATF Form 4473, which you fill out when you buy a firearm from a FFL (federally licensed dealer) specifically asks if the purchaser is addicted to drugs or alcohol. This is the link for the form. https://www.atf.gov/file/61446/download. Private sales are not subject to that. I've sold (and bought) several pistols privately (face to face), but we followed the procedure required in IL, where you run the purchaser's FOID (Firearms Owner ID) card through the State Police website to see if it's valid (the ISP runs all FOID holders through the FBI NICS/background check system daily, as they inadvertently admitted several years ago). I have to keep the paperwork for 10 years. https://ispfsb.com/Public/Firearms/FOID/PersonToPersonFirearmTransfer.aspx
If the NICS system was opened up for anyone to run a background check on via the web, like we do in IL with the ISP, I wouldn't have an issue with that for private sales. But even then, transfers between close family members are exempted. You can have someone with a crazy kid who gives the kid a gun.
Just like in the black community, where the reverends and the BLM folks won't touch the root issues (lack of intact families, education, jobs, etc.), there are a lot of root issues for what's wrong in our culture that people won't touch. They want to blame it on the guns. How about getting your face out of the TV and actually doing something with your sons? There used to be activities that multiple generations did together or passed on and seem to be fading out - wood working, mechanical tinkering, fishing, etc. Young folk these day seem to be released into the wild often without the skills or ability to cope with daily life. I'm sure treating them like special snowflakes, with "trophies for everyone," there are only winners, no losers has something to do with it. Some high schools have done away with class rankings an valedictorian because they don't want to hurt the ones who didn't work as hard. To me, that's just insane. This Psychology Today article talking about the serious problem of lack of student resilience for colleges. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201509/declining-student-resilience-serious-problem-colleges
To go on, as the previous post had gotten long...
I read somewhere in the past few years that shooting something up has become for disaffected young American men what suicide bombing is for those in the Middle East. Makes some sense, doesn't it?
The OR shooter seems to have gone off the deep end because he couldn't get a girlfriend. The one in southern CA (the one with the rich parents) seems to have had the same issue. For heaven's sake, lack of sex is not the end of the world. However, with the lack of coping skills that seems to be an issue these days, the kids can't see that.
Mental health treatment really needs to be improved, but putting the mental health issue together with background checks for firearms purchases, there is a big problem. I've seen a lot of those on the left pushing for the type of background checks that would get very invasive and would require medical records to be opened up, with privacy issues and the big opportunity for misuse with those records being opened up. Say a parent or spouse died and you went to a mental health professional for some grief counseling. Without your knowledge, the mental health professional puts a black mark in your record. Your mental health wasn't an issue before, but you just needed some help after the loved one died. It's one big slippery slope.
catherine
10-11-15, 9:51am
Thanks for the education on the current laws, Tradd. Yes, it's a very complex issue, and the culture and the media are certainly not helping things. I go back to something I read in an Ellen Goodman op ed piece once, where she said, "It used to be the society supported the family, and now the family has to protect itself against society." I think that's too true.
bekkilyn
10-11-15, 11:38am
My big WHY is why do these horrible mass murders and shootings occur? What is this "gun culture" that UltraAngler mentioned? It feels like the seams in our culture are tearing and out of these rips come the disenfranchised, the angry, and hopeless, and the mentally ill. Not sure how to fix that.
Like Tradd was saying in the next post, our whole culture is rotten, and I'm inclined to agree despite knowing that humans in general have always done some very nasty things to each other throughout history. I am also inclined that violent media does also infect the minds of our culture, and glorifies it, though I am against censoring them. Individually, playing a single, violent video game, or watching a single, violent movie or TV program, is not going to have too much effect, but playing that video game *and* seeing that movie *and* regularly watching violent TV *and* reading/watching sensationalized/violent news programs *and* listening to those songs that glorify abuse, violence, and disrespect *and* coming from a broken home *and* living in a poverty-stricken neighborhood *and*...etc. etc. etc. It all adds together even if many of us are only exposed to some of these things.
I can't remember exactly which book...it may have been 7 Habits of Highly Successful People...in which the author talked about how he went back and read personal development books for the past few decades before he wrote his own book and found that at some point in the history of these books, there was a very noticeable change. Previous to that point, personal development books were focused on people building character and good values and morals, religious or otherwise, but after that point, the books were focused on building superficial things such as smiling a lot to make yourself seem a certain way, or using somewhat deceptive techniques to market yourself to success. It became all about what you appeared to be at the outside and building actual character and integrity was no longer all that important.
As a student teacher in a high school, I see every day that I am there just how there are huge gaps in these students' education. They often don't know how to add or multiply simple integers without a calculator. They have a hard time with percent even though they are in advanced and even honors level classes. Fractions are an utter disaster. They have trouble writing outside of simply summarizing, and out of many, many students, only a few were able to understand what compare and contrast meant. It seems that the educational bureaucracy requires students to learn more and more things and spend more and more hours in school and doing homework, and they end up knowing less and less.
Our culture requires very little personal responsibility from anyone, young or old. It's always someone else's fault, and the people who have the most and who are most visible are more often the very worst offenders and set very poor examples. Our culture worships money and fame and it's not just the young people who are the "me generation" as many of us oldsters like to claim. It's all of us.
So when someone goes and shoots up a school, the fault is with the criminal who did it, but at the same time, we as a culture have created the environment that made it riper for such things to happen regardless of the tools (such as guns) that were used. Tradd is correct. Many teenagers used to bring hunting rifles to school as a norm and no one thought anything of it, and we certainly didn't hear of them shooting up the schools, even though they easily could have done so. The mindset was different.
catherine
10-11-15, 11:42am
Many teenagers used to bring hunting rifles to school as a norm and no one thought anything of it, and we certainly didn't hear of them shooting up the schools, even though they easily could have done so. The mindset was different.
Yes, and now a 7 year old gets expelled if he (or she) draws a picture of a gun. Strange, strange times.
ApatheticNoMore
10-11-15, 12:02pm
The OR shooter seems to have gone off the deep end because he couldn't get a girlfriend. The one in southern CA (the one with the rich parents) seems to have had the same issue. For heaven's sake, lack of sex is not the end of the world. However, with the lack of coping skills that seems to be an issue these days, the kids can't see that.
I'm of the opinion if that really was the issue and I'm not sure, they should have just paid someone .... long ago. But not if they would be a danger to the sex worker as well. She doesn't deserve that. I often find it very odd that it is still illegal in this modern day and age, it would of course be safer if it wasn't. Go to a sex worker for the sex and a shrink to talk to if you need to, for the time being. I really think that those type of sexual issues may run much deeper than sex (self-esteem, masculinity - sex IS masculinity in this culture, loneliness, isolation, feelings of failure .... and of course just the sex itself in addition to all that!), but if it would have helped to at least know one could pay for sex ..... then that's a good thing! Alternatively I guess they could try to hook up with the personals women for the cost of some Pho :).
Without your knowledge, the mental health professional puts a black mark in your record.
I'm not sure that's how it really works. What happens is they have to diagnose if you want insurance to pay for treatment. So the easiest diagnosis would be depression if grief doesn't exist as a category (and hope you don't have a shrink that will mark you with a full blown personality disorder or something for a label that's really only needed to be shared for insurance purposes - hope they play the game only as much as it needs to be played).
mschrisgo2
10-11-15, 12:10pm
""Gun culture" In the US relates to actual historical culture - second amendment and that whole Revolutionary War thing that progressives want to edit from history because it's just so inconvenient to the sales pitch of today."
OMGosh! YES!!! I'm teaching 5th grade this year, and 5th grade social studies is "US History." We were reading in our books about Columbus. Being the good critical readers that they are (haha) the kids picked up right away that this guy was no real hero, but a thief and a kidnapper! Yes, the book says "he took gold, jewels, and people back to Spain." As the kids said, they didn't even speak the same language, so there was no way the people "gave" Columbus their gold and jewels, nor did they "agree" to be transported across the ocean to another land to live: He stole their stuff and he kidnapped them.
There are many more accounts to come where we will have similar conversations, where the outlaws- with their guns- from other countries came to settle in America, where they invaded the native people's lands and destroyed their way of life, etc. etc.
This country was founded by social outcasts from other nations, often in the name of "spreading religion" (a socially acceptable way to give them money to leave), and the use of violence, including guns, is part of the very basic fabric of our history. Inconvenient today, as we have evolved somewhat as a species, but true nonetheless. I believe it is this truth that is rising to be acknowledged- and that acknowledgement, if it can ever come, is what will resolve the gun violence.
""Gun culture" In the US relates to actual historical culture - second amendment and that whole Revolutionary War thing that progressives want to edit from history because it's just so inconvenient to the sales pitch of today."
OMGosh! YES!!! I'm teaching 5th grade this year, and 5th grade social studies is "US History." We were reading in our books about Columbus. Being the good critical readers that they are (haha) the kids picked up right away that this guy was no real hero, but a thief and a kidnapper! Yes, the book says "he took gold, jewels, and people back to Spain." As the kids said, they didn't even speak the same language, so there was no way the people "gave" Columbus their gold and jewels, nor did they "agree" to be transported across the ocean to another land to live: He stole their stuff and he kidnapped them.
There are many more accounts to come where we will have similar conversations, where the outlaws- with their guns- from other countries came to settle in America, where they invaded the native people's lands and destroyed their way of life, etc. etc.
This country was founded by social outcasts from other nations, often in the name of "spreading religion" (a socially acceptable way to give them money to leave), and the use of violence, including guns, is part of the very basic fabric of our history. Inconvenient today, as we have evolved somewhat as a species, but true nonetheless. I believe it is this truth that is rising to be acknowledged- and that acknowledgement, if it can ever come, is what will resolve the gun violence.
So you believe that if we (excluding various certified victim groups) were to admit to a sort of blood guilt that would resolve the problem? How would that work in practice?
Thanks for the education on the current laws, Tradd. Yes, it's a very complex issue, and the culture and the media are certainly not helping things. I go back to something I read in an Ellen Goodman op ed piece once, where she said, "It used to be the society supported the family, and now the family has to protect itself against society." I think that's too true.
I think that statement is very true, but not necessarily in the way I think you (and possibly the author) intended it. I was reading an article rebutting the idea of the "helpless millennials" and in the comments section a lengthy discussion happened around the concept that maybe parents have become helicopter parents because 1) if they let their kids do things like go to the park by themselves they might get arrested for child endangerment, and 2) the decks are stacked against the millennial generation by society's profitization of absolutely everything including education and the gutting of all government services that help anyone other than large corporations.
ApatheticNoMore
10-11-15, 1:05pm
Ok ok I am convinced if bekkilyn and mschrisgo2 ran the world I don't think these problems would exist! And if I ran the world ...... prostitution would be safe and legal? Yea I guess that's about the only reason to vote for me really ...
I agree violent media can contribute, but I don't favor censorship either, so it kind of just is.
I can't remember exactly which book...it may have been 7 Habits of Highly Successful People...in which the author talked about how he went back and read personal development books for the past few decades before he wrote his own book and found that at some point in the history of these books, there was a very noticeable change.
yea I've probably read whatever book that was too, it sounds familiar (ok I've read 7 habits - I've read some truly dreadful self-help books before I found psychoanalytic writing :)).
but after that point, the books were focused on building superficial things such as smiling a lot to make yourself seem a certain way, or using somewhat deceptive techniques to market yourself to success. It became all about what you appeared to be at the outside and building actual character and integrity was no longer all that important.
yes often argued as what people must do when they must sell themselves to survive (by lots of people, including Erich Fromm with his "marketing personality", channeling Marx of course)
I have to say the problems with schools were there when I was in K-12 and I'm middle aged. Nothing new under the sun, but things do get WORSE I think, I think schools have and are getting worse, but fractions and all that stuff, schools were bad in those ways, back in the day.
. Our culture worships money and fame and it's not just the young people who are the "me generation" as many of us oldsters like to claim. It's all of us.
"Cause, the way that we're living
Is all taking and no giving
and there's nothing to believe in"
Wow I really am middle aged and that XTC song "king for a day'" really does say it all :) There is quite often nothing much to believe in (to live for, to pursue, to strive for, to have a goal, even a dream) beyond the conventional success paradigm which many people fail at.
I'm of the opinion if that really was the issue and I'm not sure, they should have just paid someone .... long ago. But not if they would be a danger to the sex worker as well. She doesn't deserve that. I often find it very odd that it is still illegal in this modern day and age, it would of course be safer if it wasn't. Go to a sex worker for the sex and a shrink to talk to if you need to, for the time being. I really think that those type of sexual issues may run much deeper than sex (self-esteem, masculinity - sex IS masculinity in this culture, loneliness, isolation, feelings of failure .... and of course just the sex itself in addition to all that!), but if it would have helped to at least know one could pay for sex ..... then that's a good thing! Alternatively I guess they could try to hook up with the personals women for the cost of some Pho :).
I wrote: Without your knowledge, the mental health professional puts a black mark in your record.
I'm not sure that's how it really works. What happens is they have to diagnose if you want insurance to pay for treatment. So the easiest diagnosis would be depression if grief doesn't exist as a category (and hope you don't have a shrink that will mark you with a full blown personality disorder or something for a label that's really only needed to be shared for insurance purposes - hope they play the game only as much as it needs to be played).
I wasn't talking about currently. I'm was referring to a possible scenario if background checks were instituted such as some on the left want - ones that would get very invasive when it came to mental health records. This is what many are warning could happen.
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