Politics and Atheism [Archive] - Page 2

Ultralight

10-20-15, 10:59am

Thanks kib and Tammy. :)

I just don't like yielding to the powers that be, especially when I think they made the wrong call. Heck, this post right here could get my account locked for all I know.

The thing that I don't get is this:

If a person does not want to discuss atheism and religion, then why not just go to a different thread? Religion and atheism are controversial topics. Ideas surrounding them are controversial. If someone is disconcerted by their particular ideas being scrutinized, then why not just go to a different thread?

I remember there was another thread, Che Guevara was a part of the discussion. If I remember correctly, and I think I do, Alan had some heavy-handed comments leveled at me. Did I lose my cool? No.

Why? Because I am an adult. I am a big boy and I can take my bruises. Socialism (politics in general) is a controversial topic where people have strong opinions.

So people debate, argue, get feisty, but at the end of the day you are either okay with who you are and what you believe or you aren't -- regardless of what others say.

kib

10-20-15, 11:21am

... these forums have always tried to maintain a higher level of civility than what's out there in internet land, including a request for no proselytizing. Sometimes what one person perceives as a feisty debate, someone else perceives as offensively aggressive. The politics forum has always been contentious, I know that the mods have a hard time wearing two hats - the "free speech" hat and the "keep the peace" hat are not complimentary fashion accessories.

Ultralight

10-20-15, 12:18pm

I can dig it.

I have much, much more to gain (and maybe give too) by keeping my account from the locked position. haha

And I intend to do that!

I have no hard feelings against anyone on this thread.

And, I know my wording is not ideal here, but what I say and what I suggest is not gospel. ;)

Songbird

10-20-15, 3:19pm

As the old saying goes, "you win some and you lose some."

I definitely lost this one.

I don't think there were any winners or losers here. Just a lot of different opinions which I respect and found quite interesting, and maybe were enlightening to some. This thread has been a good read....

rosarugosa

10-20-15, 3:48pm

I think the Public Policy Forum is a place where you have to be a bit thick-skinned, as UA describes. You probably shouldn't participate in a thread like this if you're going to get upset when someone tries to engage you in debate and challenge your viewpoint. I don't think anyone ever got rude or disrespectful during this discussion.
The Spirituality Forum seems like a more appropriate place if one prefers a thread for like-minded people to engage in a more mutually supportive discussion. Luckily, we have venues for both types of discourse.

catherine

10-20-15, 4:28pm

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/12140837_10153234943853036_6656283500082034914_n.j pg?oh=19c3d274d4cc7b9cbd1e3c774392013d&oe=56C9AEF4

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11218942_955216201180495_5244140503269191105_n.jpg ?oh=c3ae051e822cbaeaf88e95ad887df57b&oe=56C4B880

Copied from Daniel Suelo's FB page.

Sorry about the not-nice word. I can delete the pic if it's against forum rules. I just thought these two quotes fit the discussion well.

bekkilyn

10-20-15, 4:35pm

... a couple of months ago I was cleaning out my car and banged my head on the door frame. I began my grousing toward a cruel God in earnest, and five feet away from the car, the shopvac suddenly roared to life. I'm sure it was just ... um ... the seismic vibration of rocking the car with my skull? waves of psychic irritation so strong they jiggled the on-button? but for a heathenish unbeliever, I sure came close to wetting my pants.

Maybe you shouldn't read Stephen King's The Shining anytime soon then. :)

Williamsmith

10-20-15, 5:22pm

Catherine, I don't understand the last quotation, about "this is what happens when you're not an asshole."

Im sure she will answer for herself but to me it means, something I always taught my kids........simple common courtesy goes a long way.

catherine

10-20-15, 5:27pm

Catherine, I don't understand the last quotation, about "this is what happens when you're not an asshole."

OK, you're making me embarrassed that I posted it :|(

The way I interpret it, when we can just be together with each other, simply, as human beings, life is good. When we get our "lesser side" involved, we see differences, we create separation. As the wise man Rodney King said, "Can we all get along?"

rosarugosa

10-20-15, 5:34pm

Ultralight

10-20-15, 5:35pm

OK, you're making me embarrassed that I posted it :|(

The way I interpret it, when we can just be together with each other, simply, as human beings, life is good. When we get our "lesser side" involved, we see differences, we create separation. As the wise man Rodney King said, "Can we all get along?"

I think she means to say that I am an *sshole and that I like to act like I am persecuted when I am not. I am deeply offended and will certainly report her to the moderator.

Ultralight

10-20-15, 5:38pm

Disclaimer: I am not serious.

Williamsmith

10-20-15, 5:44pm

Yes, I saw that on FB and I took it to me that we should all be able to get along despite our differences.
My DH is having surgery tomorrow, and as I was leaving the office, my Jehovah Witness employee said, "I know you don't believe, but I'll still be praying for a good outcome for you folks tomorrow." I said "thank you." Not my belief system, but this was an offering of good, well-intended thoughts from a kind and loving person, and I accepted it in the spirit in which it was intended. i.e. I was not an asshole.

I hate to show my darker side....and I'm sure offend some JWs on this forum but I will admit to physically assisting a few JWs off my property when they weren't quick enough to accept that I wasn't interested in discussing religion with them. To be fair, I treated all people the same way. When it comes to my personal space......I am an *hole.

rodeosweetheart

10-20-15, 5:52pm

" As the wise man Rodney King said, 'Can we all get along?'"

That I understand, and I have always thought that was a very profound thought! May he rest in peace.

rosarugosa

10-20-15, 6:20pm

Williamsmith: I usually don't answer the door for them anymore, or if I do, I politely state my position and that usually is enough. However, my employee and I do not proselytize to each other. We're both sensible people who value our jobs. But in the spirit of Catherine's post above, we have definite affection for one another. We've worked together for 7 years, and we share a lot of common ground and avoid religious discussion for the most part.

iris lily

10-20-15, 6:55pm

Yes, I saw that on FB and I took it to me that we should all be able to get along despite our differences.
My DH is having surgery tomorrow, and as I was leaving the office, my Jehovah Witness employee said, "I know you don't believe, but I'll still be praying for a good outcome for you folks tomorrow." I said "thank you." Not my belief system, but this was an offering of good, well-intended thoughts from a kind and loving person, and I accepted it in the spirit in which it was intended. i.e. I was not an asshole.

Thank you for not being an asshole, rosa. :)

The Witnesses are often out in full force here about, I smile at them when I open the door, take their literature, and let them know I've got no interest in further engaging. They are usually very smiley and upbeat so it's not a large burden on me to,respond.

bekkilyn

10-20-15, 7:20pm

I don't open my door to anyone I don't know, and I probably don't open it to a lot of people I do know because I have a "do not disturb" sign on it. :)

Personally, I don't really mind the proselytizers since I tend to enjoy discussing people's beliefs with them, and if they are able to catch me in a public place. Once I'm home though, I'm inaccessible. I take my introversion seriously!

Ultralight

4-7-16, 8:56am

catherine

4-7-16, 9:50am

Atheist Law Student Hacked To Death In Bangladesh
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/07/473347159/atheist-law-student-hacked-to-death-in-bangladesh (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/07/473347159/atheist-law-student-hacked-to-death-in-bangladesh)

Persecution of "the other" takes place across the board. It's horrendous that atheists are brutally murdered by religious fanatics, but it's equally horrendous that Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Blacks, Chinese, Koreans, etc etc are brutally murdered. Many people give religious belief a very bad name, but the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

Ultralight

4-7-16, 9:51am

Persecution of "the other" takes place across the board. It's horrendous that atheists are brutally murdered by religious fanatics, but it's equally horrendous that Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Blacks, Chinese, Koreans, etc etc are brutally murdered. Many people give religious belief a very bad name, but the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

For my people, there will be no international outcry.

ToomuchStuff

4-7-16, 11:25am

For my people, there will be no international outcry.

"Your people"?
Didn't realize you owned people or reason?
What would an outcry against illogical actions cause, except more strife?

catherine

4-7-16, 11:30am

For my people, there will be no international outcry.

It's a shame, but life is unfair. You don't hear much outcry about the Armenian genocide that killed millions of people, either. If it hadn't been for Hollywood, how many in this country would have even been aware of the genocide of the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda?

Dualistic thinking is harmful in general:

"Aware of the suffering created by fanaticism and intolerance, we are determined not to be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. We are committed to seeing the Buddhist teachings as guiding means that help us develop our understanding and compassion. They are not doctrines to fight, kill, or die for. We understand that fanaticism in its many forms is the result of perceiving things in a dualistic and discriminative manner. We will train ourselves to look at everything with openness and the insight of interbeing in order to transform dogmatism and violence in ourselves and in the world." --First of the 14 Mindfulness Trainings, Thich Nhat Hanh's Order of Interbeing

Ultralight

4-7-16, 11:32am

It's a shame, but life is unfair. You don't hear much outcry about the Armenian genocide that killed millions of people, either. If it hadn't been for Hollywood, how many in this country would have even been aware of the genocide of the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda?

Dualistic thinking is harmful in general:

"Aware of the suffering created by fanaticism and intolerance, we are determined not to be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory, or ideology, even Buddhist ones. We are committed to seeing the Buddhist teachings as guiding means that help us develop our understanding and compassion. They are not doctrines to fight, kill, or die for. We understand that fanaticism in its many forms is the result of perceiving things in a dualistic and discriminative manner. We will train ourselves to look at everything with openness and the insight of interbeing in order to transform dogmatism and violence in ourselves and in the world." --First of the 14 Mindfulness Trainings, Thich Nhat Hanh's Order of Interbeing

Give Thich Nhat Hanh a guitar and tell him to sing Cum Bah Yah. He is a hypocrite.

catherine

4-7-16, 11:36am

Give Thich Nhat Hanh a guitar and tell him to sing Cum Bah Yah. He is a hypocrite.

How so?

LDAHL

4-7-16, 12:17pm

If someone abjures dualistic concepts like good and evil, fair and unfair, etc. why would they be concerned about genocide?

catherine

4-7-16, 12:53pm

If someone abjures dualistic concepts like good and evil, fair and unfair, etc. why would they be concerned about genocide?

I'm not going to even try to answer that as if I know the answer. I'm not a theologian or a Buddhist monk or a philosopher. But there are some smart people who have written about it, and here is one from a Buddhist perspective (http://www.theconversation.org/archive/nonduality.html).

From a Christian perspective, there are many smart minds who have tackled the theodicy of God (Diogenes Allen) and non duality (Father Richard Rohr). There are tons of others, but these two theologians are the ones I'm most familiar with on this topic.

The way I see it in my little pea-brain is that genocide is a product of dualistic thinking, suffering and desire. If I try to work toward a non-dualistic way of thinking it's not going to make me not care about others being killed. It's likely going to make me want to do the opposite--to care a lot, because I am no different from either the murderer, or the victim. I am both of them--I am their suffering.

oldhat

4-7-16, 12:54pm

If someone abjures dualistic concepts like good and evil, fair and unfair, etc. why would they be concerned about genocide?

First of all, I'm not sure that a Buddhist would say he abjures the concepts of good and evil, but would define them somewhat differently: There is skillful and unskillful behavior. The former lessens suffering and the latter increases it. Promoting a genocide, obviously, is very unskillful behavior. Because (in the Buddhist belief system) we are reborn countless times, engaging in unskillful behavior creates karma that inevitably redounds on the person that created it, even if it takes a million lifetimes to manifest. The Western concept of good and evil is at least partly based on the idea of the individual ego or self as a real, separate entity, but a Buddhist would argue that this is an illusion. You can hang the label "good" or "evil" on an action, but these are terms more convenient to an ego-based view of reality. What any action, "good" or "bad," skillful or unskillful, creates is just more karma that must be played out over the course of innumerable lifetimes.

LDAHL

4-7-16, 2:27pm

The way I see it in my little pea-brain is that genocide is a product of dualistic thinking, suffering and desire. If I try to work toward a non-dualistic way of thinking it's not going to make me not care about others being killed. It's likely going to make me want to do the opposite--to care a lot, because I am no different from either the murderer, or the victim. I am both of them--I am their suffering.

So we should not judge as evil the people imposing suffering on others, but rather regret an increase in the general level of suffering in the universe?

catherine

4-7-16, 3:51pm

So we should not judge as evil the people imposing suffering on others, but rather regret an increase in the general level of suffering in the universe?

Is that an "either/or" question? I can judge evil, and I can certainly regret it, and experience it, and defend against it by refusing to succumb to feelings of separation in my own life. I'm not a lawmaker, judge or jury, thank goodness. I'm only responsible for myself.

BTW, UA, CNN did have an article about that incident. It seems it was pre-meditated and based on the bloggers beliefs. He had gone into hiding because he was worried for his life. Terrible.