View Full Version : everything doesn't happen for a reason
Zoe Girl
10-26-15, 10:46am
http://www.timjlawrence.com/blog/2015/10/19/everything-doesnt-happen-for-a-reason
A great article to read, if you have been through grief and trauma or not. Especially if you are trying to sit with someone in grief or trauma. It brings up some things for me, how I get angry when people tell me I should be a different way in the world (not so hard and tough) when they don't have the same experience.
rodeosweetheart
10-26-15, 1:38pm
I am working right now so won't go to the article yet, but just wanted to say I appreciate the way you are and am glad you are you, the way you are!
Wow. That was perfect. My cousin lost her husband in a car accident 3 months ago. People are telling her to "get over it and move on". I'm sharing this with her.
frugalone
10-26-15, 2:40pm
How could anyone be so rude, Float On? That's unreal!!
I read this article yesterday on Facebook and I thought it was excellent.
catherine
10-26-15, 2:59pm
Interesting article. I read a similar article yesterday by a woman who shared similar sentiments: she had lost a daughter shortly after birth, and people tried to make her feel better by telling her that her daughter's in heaven now. The writer is an atheist and she pointed out how unhelpful, and, in fact, how hurtful it was when people said that.
I almost posted that article, but given we've just raked poor UltraAngler over the coals in my other thread on atheism, I chose not to share it here. But it was a similar sentiment: things that some people feel will assuage grief do exactly the opposite.
I personally believe in all that Viktor Frankl has written about the place that the search for meaning has in a human life, and I think those well-meaning platitudes are based on trying to help someone find meaning--find some sense in the nonsensical. Just recently a dear friend of the family lost a 26 year old nephew who had great promise to an accidental heroin overdose--does my friend want to hear that there's a reason for that? The "reason" is, he stuck a needle in his arm not knowing he was delivering himself a lethal dose of drug. That's the tragic truth.
What about the woman hiking on her honeymoon and stepping where she shouldn't have and plummeting down a cliff. Too often life seems random and existential. And for the bereft, the grief of a moment is the grief of an eternity, so I agree with the writer that no one person can put a band-aid on tragedy. All you can do if you are trying to be helpful to someone experiencing it is to be there and listen.
It is terrible, and I totally believe that people do that. At least I have not heard that to my friends who have lost a child or a spouse in an untimely way (anything other than old age). I would take someone out for that, cannot fathom.
The point for me is even if we do grow and develop parts of ourselves based on trauma we don't have to, and some people never do. It does not make trauma 'worth it'. I LOVE the short story Tell Me a Riddle by Tillie Olsen. I have the book from college still. It is a story about an old woman and how she is based on what she had to do to survive over her life. One grand daughter understands, very sweet but reminds me we do not have to have a moment where everything is magically healed.
My issue is having been in an emotionally abusive marriage, I don't play nice in some situations. Part of the huge triggers that happened at work last year in fact. But if you were in some situations you might want me there to see through every layer of BS instead of someone 'nice'.
Ultralight
10-26-15, 3:17pm
I think that my life -- probably most peoples' lives -- are something we salvage. Bad stuff happens. We somehow carry on, which part of the article mentioned.
It is a good article. I like how it critically examined that phrase "Everything happens for a reason."
That is too often something people just accept without question -- without outrage!
I am working right now so won't go to the article yet, but just wanted to say I appreciate the way you are and am glad you are you, the way you are!
Thank you Rodeo!!
iris lilies
10-26-15, 3:34pm
This article was good at pointing out out behavior we can all agree is bad. Mouthing platitudes in the face of tragedy likely does not help the victims all of the times, but sometimes it might. Murmuring that a dead child is now an angel in heaven probably represents a picture of comfort to some people if not the chief mourner in the case above.
Deaths and other tragedies are high emotion, uncharted waters in a social group,because no one really knows how the mourners are felling, what particular brand of suffering they take on.
So the safe , and really only logical thing to SAY is an expression of sorrow and regret about the tragedy.
But it is interesting to contemplate what causes people to act like dunderheads in these situations. Is it a new societal thing? I doubt it. Or maybe it reflects a mix in this country of different cultures. The Baby. In
heaven idea would have been, at one time, the idea of everyone in a particular social group.
Ultralight
10-26-15, 3:50pm
Murmuring that a dead child is now an angel,in heaven probably represents a picture of comfort to some people if not the chief mourner.
There is a scene in the film The Ledge (great movie, btw) where something like this is discussed. Anyone else seen The Ledge?
Anyway, my sis is studying be a nurse. She is very, very agnostic -- very science-minded. And I think that when she enters into nursing she is going to have to deal with talk of children who passed away being angels and other such things consciously and methodically. A "mechanical bedside manner" might be an accurate phrase.
When someone on her Facebook mentions a deceased loved one being "an angel now" my sis says, dismissively and decidedly: "That is not real."
As for me, when something tragic happens to someone and comfort is warranted I try my best to comfort them within the parameters of my own values.
When a friend's grandpa died I relayed to him these stories his grandpa told me -- life lessons stories and what I learned from them. This was moving to my friend. I think it made him feel like his grandpa's sphere of influence was larger. And it made him more at ease with his grandpa's life ending.
My mom's friend's dad died a couple years back. At the funeral she came up to me and said, in tears: "He is in a better place now."
I just said, "Yes, he is" and gave her a hug.
Her better place was the heaven of her imagination. To me the better place was simply the totally unconscious state we call death.
Thanks so much for sharing this article. My granddaughters died in July (twin girls, born too early, one lived for an hour, the other six days). My family and I have been immersed in grief and the long (at times) lonely path of it. This especially spoke to me: Some things in life cannot be fixed. They can only be carried.
rodeosweetheart
10-26-15, 6:41pm
Oh Reyes, how dreadful. I am so sorry to hear this.
iris lilies
10-27-15, 10:29am
Reyes, this is so sad. Thinking about you and your family.
Williamsmith
10-27-15, 9:05pm
To me, two things are going on in this article. Lawrence did a good job explaining why just being present and available is more useful than anything one can say to a grieving person. But he hinted at the truth that everyone grieves on their own timetable. Some seem more able to cope than others but all grieve. And anger is something that is part of the process. It can last a very long time for some personalities. It can be part of the pieces that get put back together and may resurface from time to time. But eventually anger has to be dealt with on some level.
I learned this from the Amish community. They have a tradition of showing outward forgiveness and a calling to let go of grudges in situations involving their own grief. I believe it helps them continue on putting the pieces of their life back together. They would not say that everything happens for a reason. They would say, it has happened, this is how we should respond. There was an incident in Pennsylvania where a mentally ill milk truck driver took hostage Amish children in their school, shot many of them and then killed himself when Troopers arrived. The Amish response was outward forgiveness but I know they were inwardly still grieving and will forever.
I have sat with many grieving people under circumstances that were terribly unbearable. If you can't keep your mouth shut, you shouldn't be there.
Summing up: "Anything you say can and will be used against you." It's no wonder people shy away.
Simplemind
10-28-15, 12:53am
So often people feel they need to say something. They can make some incredibly (unintentionally) thoughtless statements. Or, they feel like they have no words to contribute so they say nothing and avoid the presence of grief which is also very hurtful. It is hard to learn how to just be there and not feel like you have to fill in the silence. I can attest that it is a powerful thing.
OMG YES YES YES~!!! I am freakin' tired of people trying to tell me to find the reason and accept it as a learning tool. What I have endured over the past 2 years, I would not wish on anyone and I would not go tell anyone to go figure out the meaning of it all. It just sucks, plain and simple and I will carry it around with me as best as I can.
As a parent of a son with (profound) autism, I've been told this a few times. The worst one is "God doesn't give you more than you can handle". Most people mean well, but if you need reassurance and convincing there is order in the world and purpose in the hard things people go through, please don't put it on their shoulders to do it for you.
ApatheticNoMore
10-28-15, 10:36am
Summing up: "Anything you say can and will be used against you." It's no wonder people shy away.
Maybe. I'm the last person in the world to say these reassuring things, that I suppose your not supposed to say, but you get the feeling they wouldn't like it any better if one said "everything happens for no reason whatsoever".
Maybe other people should shy away, they can't usually help (fellow mourners especially of the same deceased might, but that is about all).
Ultralight
10-28-15, 10:45am
Maybe. I'm the last person in the world to say these reassuring things, that I suppose your not supposed to say, but you get the feeling they wouldn't like it any better if one said "everything happens for no reason whatsoever". We didn't ask to be born, and we don't ask to die, etc...
Maybe other people should shy away, they can't usually help (fellow mourners especially of the same deceased might, but that is about all).
I have been thinking about what I would want people to say to me, like if I was diagnosed with Cancer of The Everything or when my dog dies.
And I realize I am not a standard case here, but I think I'd prefer that people say, in the case of Cancer of The Everything:
-"We will make sure you feel no pain."
-"We'll pull the plug with extreme prejudice."
In the case of my dog dying:
-"You were good to him, you rescued him, and he lived in a socialist paradise because of you with snuggles, snacks, walks, attention, play time, medical treatment, and naps. Now he is gone. But he is in a totally unconscious state. Just remember: We are all stardust, including Harlan."
-"So it goes."
I believe I would want to be alone with only my closest family and friends - which is about 10 people - if someone close to me died. The hardest thing for me to imagine is having a typical visitation and funeral and having to interact with larges amounts of people.
When people offer me sympathies, advice or condolences, I try to accept them in the spirit in which they are given rather than parse them out for reasons to be offended or irritated. Even at the worst of times, I try to keep in mind that its not all about me. I'll admit I don't always succeed.
Ultralight
10-28-15, 12:16pm
When people offer me sympathies, advice or condolences, I try to accept them in the spirit in which they are given rather than parse them out for reasons to be offended or irritated. Even at the worst of times, I try to keep in mind that its not all about me. I'll admit I don't always succeed.
Intriguing thought here, LDAHL. Quite a turn of direction in this convo, but also an insight to consider.
JaneV2.0
10-28-15, 12:59pm
Maybe. I'm the last person in the world to say these reassuring things, that I suppose your not supposed to say, but you get the feeling they wouldn't like it any better if one said "everything happens for no reason whatsoever".
Maybe other people should shy away, they can't usually help (fellow mourners especially of the same deceased might, but that is about all).
I don't think I've ever put my foot in my mouth in such situations either (though I'm prone to otherwise), but I've long thought that people are doing their best under awkward circumstances, and unless they go on and on it's best to just say "thank you" and not analyze their words to death.
When my dad died I only wanted to talk to certain people. I categorized callers as "drainers" and "restorers" for me. I keep the answering machine on all the time so could screen. I know who is which...and only picked up when I could deal with it. But like LDHL I think most people are doing the best they can. Not worth my energy getting fussed up about the way they try to comfort. Just say thank you and move on.
Williamsmith
10-28-15, 4:25pm
There're is a difference between the grief of a tragic sudden death and the ability to pre grieve a prolonged expected death. That difference I have experienced is like the difference between a sudden unexpected fall and knowing something is going to happen that is going to cause you to fall.
The sudden onset causes a tunnel vision and a shock to the system and its normal operating condition. I suppose a physician would be able to explain the chemistry involved but there is sleep disruption, inability to focus on one task and a feeling of being overwhelmed as well as lack of interest in food. Time is twisted out of context and interaction with others seems like a nightmare, only you don't wake up. Normal ways of problem solving seem lost in the waves of grief.
I think it is this status that makes it intolerable to having someone adding their insight. There is no room for insight, the mind has been flooded with unbelievable realities. Depending on what happens next, time can help but it's not like you want everyone to go away. Not at all, you want them to be available or present but mostly when you look for them. You don't want people looking for you.
The time when friendship is most needed is after it becomes quiet. When everyone has stopped calling, leaving food or sending cards. When all becomes still, that's when someone can make a difference if they just come up along side you and support you.
When I retired, it took me 11 months to come to terms with the rest of my life and during that period if someone had said that everything happens for a reason......after they picked themselves up off the ground and wiped their bloody nose, I would have said......."there is no reason for most of this to have happened."
SteveinMN
10-28-15, 6:41pm
Over time, I've accepted what I believe are many great truths. One is that most people hate silence. It makes them so uncomfortable they have to break it, even if it's with words that do not serve them or the situation.
Without getting too deeply into it, I happen to believe that everything does happen for a reason. The reason does not always have to make sense to us bystanders or be a good one. And I do wrestle with that idea at times. But I do believe that, at some level, there are reasons for everything.
catherine
10-28-15, 7:20pm
I think that my life -- probably most peoples' lives -- are something we salvage.
Gee, that sounds depressing. I must say, UA, I don't feel that way at all.
As for this thread, it's been an interesting read.
...
Without getting too deeply into it, I happen to believe that everything does happen for a reason. The reason does not always have to make sense to us bystanders or be a good one. And I do wrestle with that idea at times. But I do believe that, at some level, there are reasons for everything.
My philosophy is similar--that everything turns out all right in the end. It's probably not strictly true, but things have a way of resolving themselves. I'm pretty optimistic, considering.
Interesting article. I read a similar article yesterday by a woman who shared similar sentiments: she had lost a daughter shortly after birth, and people tried to make her feel better by telling her that her daughter's in heaven now. The writer is an atheist and she pointed out how unhelpful, and, in fact, how hurtful it was when people said that.
My father died suddenly of a heart attack when I was 15.
The next Sunday in church, a well-meaning but clueless person came up to me (as I was desperately trying not to cry while sitting in the pew we had shared with dad for years) and said "Well, you still have a father in heaven."
Not only did I want to bop them one, this was the beginning of the end of my relationship with the church and with organized religion.
Thanks so much for sharing this article. My granddaughters died in July (twin girls, born too early, one lived for an hour, the other six days). My family and I have been immersed in grief and the long (at times) lonely path of it. This especially spoke to me: Some things in life cannot be fixed. They can only be carried.
I'm so sorry, Reyes. Thinking of you and your family.
My father died suddenly of a heart attack when I was 15.
The next Sunday in church, a well-meaning but clueless person came up to me (as I was desperately trying not to cry while sitting in the pew we had shared with dad for years) and said "Well, you still have a father in heaven."
Not only did I want to bop them one, this was the beginning of the end of my relationship with the church and with organized religion.
Wow, I can see why it would have that impact. I am sorry you lost your dad at that age, my best friend when we were 16 lost her dad suddenly also. I was her friend then and for the next couple years and still can't totally understand and just care instead.
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