View Full Version : School incident in South Carolina
How do you all feel about this? I'm referring to the situation at a school where a student was asked to put her cell phone down during a class and she refused. Then she was asked to leave the classroom and she refused. I've also heard an administrator asked her to leave too, and she wouldn't. So they called the resource office (deputy) and he struggled to get her out of her seat. The desk fell over and the deputy pulled her out of the classroom. Now the deputy has been fired. I don't understand this. This is another case of.......If the person had just behaved/followed instructions, none of this would have happened. But now, most of the blame is on the deputy. This seems to be a trend..........to find fault with the police who are reacting to obstinate/rebellious people. Maybe more will come out, but I don't think the deputy should have been fired. Why are we constantly putting the blame in the wrong place?
And maybe now there will be more rules for how to handle this situation. I guess in retrospect, they should have just left her alone, and when class was over, expel her from school.
And why can't kids leave their cell phones in their lockers? Shouldn't this be the rule?
One video shows the girl attacking the deputy.
Some folk don't seem to get that following simple directions can save them much trouble.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 9:18am
I am not familiar with the case.
But I think that, from what you describe, our school systems are a huge mess.
They were back in my day too, which was why I rarely showed up.
Williamsmith
10-29-15, 9:40am
Two separate issues......what the law requires and what the job requires. The Deputy probably satisfied legal requirement by his level of use of force. He is not criminally culpable for anything unless somehow there is injury to the girl we haven't heard about. And even then, she placed herself in that situation. He probably violated his Sheriffs expectations and brought unwanted national publicity on the department. My guess is he is not represented by any Union and so he's gone. And so is his chances for future employment and his pension if he had one.
Fact is for baby boomers we were subject to this type of action by teachers and principles. The police were only needed for life and death situations. We got our asses beat on Regularly, drug around by our collars, tossed out on our ear and otherwise put in our place when we stepped out of line. Different world now. Now everybody wants to sue hence the police are everywhere.
What he might have done was first clear the room of other students. It is a safety factor. Get rid of other students who might come to her aid. Second, have another officer assist him. Not always possible especially in a rural department. And third, choose not to confront her at all. Just leave her sitting there , texting to who knows who, picking her nose or whatever. I'm pretty sure if you told her to stay in her seat and not get up....she'd be up in a heartbeat. Then escort her off the property.
When I was young (in the 50's-60's)........the most punishment I saw was paddling. Most of us were afraid to misbehave! Most of us were being taught differently by parents back then.
The deputy (in retrospect) could have just pulled her in her chair out of the room........but she was swatting at him and fighting back. This B.S. about everyone having rights........no matter how it affects the group is crazy. We've just gone too far.
Nobody is held accountable or truly punished for their obnoxious/rebellious/criminal behavior and more and more people think they can get away with it.
I'm really ticked off at the sheriff for firing the deputy. He should have at least put him on desk duty until all this is sorted out. But no.........he had to be politically correct.......whether it was right or wrong/ fair or unfair.
Fact is for baby boomers we were subject to this type of action by teachers and principles
This is my thought too. I can recall several incidents where teachers reacted similarly to a student who was not towing the line. I think the difference is that we now have cops in schools and there are cameras everywhere to record everything that happens. Disrespect for rules in schools is nothing new. The media has decided that the viewing public wants to see cops behaving badly.
catherine
10-29-15, 10:04am
Disrespect for rules in schools is nothing new.
Well, the nuns in my elementary school commanded respect and compliance and got it. They each had a class of 40 students--can you imagine? Most classes have student:teacher ratios of one teacher for 20-25 students max. I was once disciplined for playing with a ruler during class time. I was sent down to the 1st grade to spend a humiliating day down there, (my brother was in 1st grade at the time, which added to the humiliation).
Honestly, the idea of saying "no" to a nun? Forget about it.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 10:06am
I have never been one to laud rule and control by force.
So what would the harm be to just let her sit there on her phone?
I admire rebelliousness -- when properly directed. Does this generation have no other causes to rebel for or against?
There was a time when young people -- kids really -- rebelled in the South to get civil rights. Now they rebel to twiddle on their smart phones?
Sad situation.
Also: I disagree with corporal punishment of children.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 10:08am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsEwK69LXjQ
Mellencamp's Authority Song!
catherine
10-29-15, 10:11am
I have never been one to laud rule and control by force.
So what would the harm be to just let her sit there on her phone?
Hmm.. there's a time and a place for rebelliousness. What's the "cause" in this situation that would justify flouting the rules? To inspire all the kids in the class to pull out their cell phones and text instead of being present in class?
I'm not a teacher, so I'd love to hear teachers on this forum weigh in.
I'm a bit more younger than you boomers (46), but my teachers would also lay a hand on you if you got out of line. If they didn't, parents would.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 10:21am
A time and place for rebelliousness? How orderly. ;)
I think the problems with the schools in this nation are massive and they cannot be addressed by resolving this one issue, or by crushing the spirit of young people.
Questioning and fighting authority is not only a rite of passage but the mark of a free person -- a free thinker.
Now, with that said: I think rebelling over this cell phone texting thing is just silly. I don't own a cell phone, which I consider a better way to rebel!
If all the students get their cell phones out then why not let them? Or ask their parents to take the cell phones away.
When I was a teacher (TA in grad school for freshman classes) I told this to the students:
"If you want to fiddle around with your cell phones you can. Just go to the back row of the room. You'll probably lose the 5 percentage points you get for 'participation' though."
Still a bunch of students just went to the back, minded their own business, and played games or texted with friends.
No major disturbances. Few disturbances from this at all.
Tangential: I am amazed how often people look back on the corporal punishment they received as though it was a good thing. They laud the fact that they were scared in school or by their parents. It is a form of Stockholm Syndrome, in my opinion.
Research shows that corporal punishment of kids causes all sorts of developmental problems. No, I am not going to do your research for you. Google it.
When I was a kid I got corporal punishment it just made me plot revenge or wait on the day that I was big enough to fight back.
ApatheticNoMore
10-29-15, 10:29am
What's the "cause" in this situation that would justify flouting the rules? To inspire all the kids in the class to pull out their cell phones and text instead of being present in class?
well texting I don't know ... but in the real world which of course schools have nothing to do with, but which the students will enter some day, most learning will involve cell phones. Go to any place adult professionals learn. Do they scribble down lecture and presentation notes? No, they take pictures on their cell phones of the powerpoints etc. for later. I'll probably be the one person scribbling notes ....
catherine
10-29-15, 10:32am
I think establishing ground rules in the college classroom is different than in elementary or middle school. You can't tell a bunch of 14 year olds that it's fine to talk on their cell phones.
Teachers of younger students are also responsible for fostering appropriate self-regulation. That being said, respect cuts both ways, and disrespect should not be responded to with disrespect.
My son was every teacher's nemesis until we authorized his dropping out of school when he was 16. It's true that there's a fine line between allowing freedom of expression and autonomy and controlling chaos so learning can take place. Believe me, my son was NEVER one to sit quietly and abide by rules, and I respect his individuality, but if I had it to do over again, I would have enrolled him in a Waldorf School or some similar alternative program. But when you are in a traditional public school setting, you can't have a classroom filled with people like my son or the girl in the news, and so the teachers' only recourse is to enforce conformity for the benefit of the Compliant Majority.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 10:33am
Everyone at my job is noodling on their cell phones all day. It depletes the team of productivity. But no one, I mean no one, in management would dream of making a "no cell phones during work hours" rule.
catherine
10-29-15, 10:34am
Everyone at my job is noodling on their cell phones all day. It depletes the team of productivity. But no one, I mean no one, in management would dream of making a "no cell phones during work hours" rule.
Once again, adults are not children. Children are not adults.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 10:47am
I think establishing ground rules in the college classroom is different than in elementary or middle school. You can't tell a bunch of 14 year olds that it's fine to talk on their cell phones.
Teachers of younger students are also responsible for fostering appropriate self-regulation. That being said, respect cuts both ways, and disrespect should not be responded to with disrespect.
My son was every teacher's nemesis until we authorized his dropping out of school when he was 16. It's true that there's a fine line between allowing freedom of expression and autonomy and controlling chaos so learning can take place. Believe me, my son was NEVER one to sit quietly and abide by rules, and I respect his individuality, but if I had it to do over again, I would have enrolled him in a Waldorf School or some similar alternative program. But when you are in a traditional public school setting, you can't have a classroom filled with people like my son or the girl in the news, and so the teachers' only recourse is to enforce conformity for the benefit of the Compliant Majority.
I think this speaks to the larger systemic problems with our schools.
Cops in schools enforcing conformity? Is that a school or a juvenile detention center? I mean, really!
What I saw in school was not much learning, but more memorization. I also saw very little instruction on critical thinking.
I have a lot of horror stories from my schools days (when I was there).
For instance, my first semester in high school I was put in a class full of mentally retarded students who could not read. The teacher did these individual tests of our reading abilities and comprehension. When she did mine she was very confused, but not as confused as I was as to why I was in a special education class.
She retested me. Again: I could read and comprehend well.
Every day I showed up to class wondering why I was there. Then one day we get a new student in the class. He happened to have a name very similar to mine.
Apparently they had mixed us up and put us in each other's class. He was a special education-type student and largely illiterate. They had him in advanced placement English, which confused the beJesus out of him.
They then told me that I could not switch to the AP class because it was too far along in the semester.
What did the English teacher do? Well, the best she could, I suppose. She gave me a copy of 1984 to read.
Coincidence? haha
Anyway, because of that I was behind in my English classes and was unable to take classes like Short Story and Novel in high school later.
catherine
10-29-15, 10:56am
I think this speaks to the larger systemic problems with our schools.
Cops in schools enforcing conformity? Is that a school or a juvenile detention center? I mean, really!
You have a point. They should round up the few nuns there are left and make them the teachers' sidearms, although nuns today are probably a lot different than they were in the 50s/60s
Your experience at school is horrible! Yes, kids fall through the cracks too often. Way too often. I have similar stories about my son, and why we were all too glad to relieve him of the torture of going to school. He's a lawyer now.
LOL about the nuns, Catherine. My catholic-schooled DH would say the exact same things!
Ultralight
10-29-15, 11:36am
I went to Catholic school for one day.
Not. A. Good. Fit. LOL!
I went to CCD though, every Sunday from 1st grade to sophomore year of high school. Then I just refused to go on grounds of having no religion. The argument was epic between my mom and I. My dad finally stepped in and said: "Leave him be. He is 16 years old. He can make up his own mind."
Before that though, those nuns had their hands full dealing with me and my questions. Good times!
Another great horror story from my high school days. This is classic!
My school was trying to figure out if they wanted to keep the standard 45 minute classes or switch to 2.5 hour block class scheduling.
So I show up on the first day of my sophomore year of high school and get my schedule. Apparently I am in their pilot program for block scheduling in government/economics. And the strangest thing is that me -- a frequent no-show to class and C and D student -- is in their with all the academic shining stars. Weird right? There was also the troubled son (Dave) of the school's science teacher in there. So all A+ students and then me and Dave.
One time, about halfway through the semester, after having gotten quite a bit of grief from the teacher and other students the teacher said: "I look around this class and I see students who are excelling, students who will go on to college and have professions and careers. But I think there are probably one or two students in here who will never leave this little town. They won't end up making much of themselves. I want you all to look around the room and see if you can identify who those two students are."
The teacher and the students all laughed as they turned and -- I sh*t you not -- pointed at Dave and I. They were saying things like: "Yeah, it is those two!" and "Those two will never leave this town!"
After that day I showed up to class even less. I never brought my books or my pencils and paper. When I was there I was dozing off.
A couple weeks later I stopped by the science teacher's classroom (Dave's dad) to drop off a late assignment right after school. He asked: "How's that block scheduling pilot class you and my son are in?"
I said: "Not well. The teacher is not cool. The students are obnoxious and stuck up."
He said: "Well, you know why you were selected for that class right?"
Me: "No..."
Him: "Well, I put Dave in there so he could get caught up and graduate with his class. He is a year behind now. But the administration put you in there as the guinea pig. They wanted to see if a largely disengaged C and D student could hack it in the block classes. They know your parents won't complain and that you can't do anything about being put in the class. You are expendable."
He grinned at me like he enjoyed telling me this.
I sometimes think of going back and having a little talk with that government/economics teacher. I'd point out to him that I have a BS and two master's degrees. I'd like to also note to him that I have lived in Costa Rica, Alabama, Philadelphia, and Arizona and that I have also traveled to Portugal, Spain, England, and Aruba.
But alas, as Marcus Aurelius says: "The best revenge is to be unlike he who committed the offense."
Ultralight
10-29-15, 11:36am
Your experience at school is horrible! Yes, kids fall through the cracks too often. Way too often. I have similar stories about my son, and why we were all too glad to relieve him of the torture of going to school. He's a lawyer now.
Awesome! :)
You have a point. They should round up the few nuns there are left and make them the teachers' sidearms, although nuns today are probably a lot different than they were in the 50s/60s
Your experience at school is horrible! Yes, kids fall through the cracks too often. Way too often. I have similar stories about my son, and why we were all too glad to relieve him of the torture of going to school. He's a lawyer now.
My Catholic High School actually had a "disciplinarian" on staff. Father Tony. Some claimed he was a former enforcer for the Chicago Outfit who had seen the light and decided to turn his talents to the service of the Lord. Like all good enforcers, he worked primarily through intimidation, but was up for action when called for. My parents thoroughly approved of this arrangement.
Maybe I was warped in my formative years, but I see a certain level of physical force as justifiable in cases of the level of self-centered jackassery on display in this case. One twit can steal a measure of learning from a whole roomful of kids. We seem to be degenerating into a culture that doesn't understand that rights have corresponding responsibilities. And far from feeling some level of embarrassment at their child's conduct, the parents are now looking for a litigation payday.
Is it any wonder there are third world countries beating our kids' educational attainment?
Ultralight
10-29-15, 12:01pm
Let's say, as a hypothetical (not that this would ever happen) that a wife displayed some "self-centered jackassery." Would you support the husband using "physical force" to discipline her?
rodeosweetheart
10-29-15, 12:28pm
"What he might have done was first clear the room of other students. It is a safety factor. Get rid of other students who might come to her aid. Second, have another officer assist him. Not always possible especially in a rural department. And third, choose not to confront her at all. Just leave her sitting there , texting to who knows who, picking her nose or whatever. I'm pretty sure if you told her to stay in her seat and not get up....she'd be up in a heartbeat. Then escort her off the property."
that seems like a good and non-violent plan. Also effective.
Let's say, as a hypothetical (not that this would ever happen) that a wife displayed some "self-centered jackassery." Would you support the husband using "physical force" to discipline her?
I don't see that as comparable to the situation here, where a kid decided for reasons best known to herself to steal some education from her classmates (she could have simply left and continued on the path to ignorance by herself). Didn't the other kids in the room deserve to be defended against what was essentially a small attack on their futures?
Ultralight
10-29-15, 12:31pm
I don't see that as comparable to the situation here...
Convenient.
iris lilies
10-29-15, 12:32pm
I think that any brand of laying hands on someone in a school setting represents an unfortunate act of violence, even if a small degree,but that reflects my experience which is faraway from schools for half a century.
That said, this isn't "corporal punishment" but at this point in the game is about the rest of the population, the students in the classroom, and the disruption needs to be gone. The "punishment" comes later.
Its extremely disruptive to do as the girl did. How to solve that immediate problem may be up for debate. Perhaps if I were the teacher I would have ignored her after I asked her to put down the phone, and after class escorted her to the principal's office, and if she would not go, THEN called in the strong arm disciplinarian. Likely she would be expelled and that's the punishment.
This has little to do with a college classroom. Those students there are paying for the experience and presumably value the product (Education) they are getting. Educators here know plenty of college kids who do NOT value their education and can correlate their performance in the classroom.
Unfortunately, too many current students in public schools and their parents place low value on education and their actions in schools reflect that.
UL that is amazing that you were placed in a special Ed classroom due to a clerical screwup. What did you parents say about that?
Ultralight
10-29-15, 12:35pm
I think that any brand of laying hands on someone in a school setting represents an unfortunate act of violence, even if a small degree,but that reflects my experience which is faraway from schools for half a century.
That said, this isn't "corporal punishment" but at this point in the game is about the rest of the population, the students in the classroom, and the disruption needs to be gone. The "punishment" comes later.
Its extremely disruptive to do as the girl did. How to solve that immediate problem may be up for debate. Perhaps if I were the teacher I would have ignored her after I asked her to put down the phone, and after class escorted her to the principal's office, and if she would not go, THEN called in the strong arm disciplinarian. Likely she would be expelled and that's the punishment.
This has little to do with a college classroom. Those students there are paying for the experience and presumably value the product (Education) they are getting. Educators here know plenty of college kids who do NOT value their education and can correlate their performance in the classroom.
Unfortunately, too many current students in public schools and their parents place low value on education and their actions in schools reflect that.
UL that is amazing that you were placed in a special Ed classroom due to a clerical screwup. What did you parents say about that?
My parents were confused. But they were busy working and being tired from work and whatnot. My mom is also mentally ill. So they did nothing.
JaneV2.0
10-29-15, 12:46pm
As a baby boomer myself, I want to say that I never--in twelve years of school, in several different districts--ever saw or heard of an instance of corporal punishment, let alone students being jerked out of their chairs or beaten. I had to go sit out in the hall for some infraction once. Schools around here were pretty civilized places.
My mother and her siblings bailed out of Catholic schools after my aunt took the ruler that some nun was threatening her with and broke it over her knee, much to my grandmother's chagrin.
I'm glad there were other students with phones to record this incident. That uniformed thug could have broken the girl's neck, or inflicted brain damage. There's no excuse for what he did --it's not like he was taking down an armed assailant. I don't know when we decided we needed the police in schools. I'm so naive I thought "resource officers" managed audio-visual equipment or something. Brave new world, indeed.
iris lilies
10-29-15, 12:48pm
I also think that seeing these kinds of school issues in terms of punishment and rewards is a narrow view that isn't useful in the big picture.
Children and adults learn differently, accept criticism in different ways, respond to guidance in various ways.
There were plenty of times in the working world where I assigned employees who did good quality work new things to do that were interesting challenges. That could be viewed in the old school marm dichotomy as "reward" and "punishment" for those who didn't get to do the cool stuff. But it was about accomplishing the work in the best way possible--those who.spent too much time on their cell phone didn't achieve as much and therefore, werent allowed additional keys to the castle.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 12:48pm
As a baby boomer myself, I want to say that I never--in twelve years of school, in several different districts--ever saw or heard of an instance of corporal punishment, let alone students being jerked out of their chairs or beaten. I had to go sit out in the hall for some infraction once. Schools around here were pretty civilized places.
My mother and her siblings bailed out of Catholic schools after my aunt took the ruler that some nun was threatening her with and broke it over her knee, much to my grandmother's chagrin.
I'm glad there were other students with phones to record this incident. That uniformed thug could have broken the girl's neck, or inflicted brain damage. There's no excuse for what he did --it's not like he was taking down an armed assailant. I don't know when we decided we needed the police in schools. I'm so naive I thought "resource officers" managed audio-visual equipment or something. Brave new world, indeed.
I agree with this.
iris lilies
10-29-15, 1:56pm
.... I had to go sit out in the hall for some infraction once...
Surely you see that this is essentially different from this South Carolina incident: you left when asked. She did not.
But I think it's likely that the officer in the video was treated appropriately by his supervisor and that's fine with me.
The reason why law enforcement officers are in the school buildings and in public libraries is to afford safety to those who are not thugs. Property and people need protection from those who don't know or care how to behave in these public spaces.
its common in my urban library for gangs wars to spill over into the library, for mentally ill persons to flail out at nearby people who are sitting quietly, for pervs to target library workers and follow them around. These are daily occurances in a large urban setting. Guns and knives and all manner of weapons come into the library because--and I know this will surprise many here--thugs don't follow rules! They ignore the No Weapons ban!!! Who would have thought it!
I also think that seeing these kinds of school issues in terms of punishment and rewards is a narrow view that isn't useful in the big picture.
Children and adults learn differently, accept criticism in different ways, respond to guidance in various ways.
There were plenty of times in the working world where I assigned employees who did good quality work new things to do that were interesting challenges. That could be viewed in the old school marm dichotomy as "reward" and "punishment" for those who didn't get to do the cool stuff. But it was about accomplishing the work in the best way possible--those who.spent too much time on their cell phone didn't achieve as much and therefore, werent allowed additional keys to the castle.
I don't think many of the kids today are interested in the keys to the castle.
And I would guess a lot of these kids aren't getting any guidance at home either. These resource people are human and get frustrated too. If you have to deal with this kind of thing fairly often, you are apt to lose your cool sometime. I just want today's young people to behave better and be raised better...........but I don't think it's going to happen. I sure wish someone had been videotaping everything that led up to that point. I think people would have a slightly different opinion.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 2:06pm
Do you think that parents often outsource discipline to teachers, school administrators, and cops?
Ultralight
10-29-15, 2:07pm
Surely you see that this is essentially different from this South Carolina incident: you left when asked. She did not.
But I think it's likely that the officer in the video was treated appropriately by his supervisor and that's fine with me.
The reason why law enforcement officers are in the school buildings and in public libraries is to afford safety to those who are not thugs. Property and people need protection from those who don't know or care how to behave in these public spaces.
its common in my urban library for gangs wars to spill over into the library, for mentally ill persons to flail out at nearby people who are sitting quietly, for pervs to target library workers and follow them around. These are daily occurances in a large urban setting. Guns and knives and all manner of weapons come into the library because--and I know this will surprise many here--thugs don't follow rules! They ignore the No Weapons ban!!! Who would have thought it!
I think that what you are describing is symptomatic of larger social trends in our very troubled society.
Would a police state fix the problems?
Surely you see that this is essentially different from this South Carolina incident: you left when asked. She did not.
But I think it's likely that the officer in the video was treated appropriately by his supervisor and that's fine with me. ...
Yeah--that was a throwaway; I wasn't trying to compare myself to the student in question. I'd be interested to know her explanation for not just leaving the room (though I realize teenagers are often irrational). Apparently, "Officer Slam" was a notorious bully. It saddens me that many of our schools have become so dysfunctional.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 2:19pm
Officer Slam?! Sad-LOL
Williamsmith
10-29-15, 2:28pm
Trust me, you don't want increased involvement from the police. The police are supposed to be that last resource when nothing else is working. It is a common occurrence for them to interrupt your constitutional rights because you gave them an opportunity to invoke an exception. So as a police officer I had little interest in complaints that I was too heavy handed when the time came that nobody else wanted to or could solve the problem.
It is not surprising is it, that police offers have unique strengths and weaknesses. That if you call ten police officers to the same incident it might get resolved in ten different ways depending on the characteristics of the officer.
That is why Resource Officers must be picked with an even temperament, a mind toward calm solution, a heart of compassion and a patient disposition. They also can prevent situations by having a good relationship with the students. I know several police officers that would have been excellent in this situation in South Carolina and would probably had been able to convince the girl to leave of her own accord. There might have even been some laughter involved. This officer was only acting on his strength. He knew he couldn't talk her out and had limited ability to relate to her. It was natural for him to strong arm her and it appears to me she was never in any danger of real harm.
She might have been alarmed at the swiftness of his approach as was at least one other student witness. But a blitzkrieg is often a good working solution to a rapidly deteriorating problem with one offender. This however is not the public square. The deputy needed to compose himself because he put himself in a spot where he was embarrassed in front of other students. That's why she got jerked out of the chair and that's why he got fired.
I think that what you are describing is symptomatic of larger social trends in our very troubled society.
Would a police state fix the problems?
It hasn't so far. But maybe we're just not police statey enough. Kill a few more thugs for the horrible crime of illegally selling single cigarettes, take out a few more people for the offense of being rude to cops and so on and then maybe the problem will be solved.
rodeosweetheart
10-29-15, 2:47pm
I thought his remark was sarcastic, intended to extrapolate what people were saying.
But maybe I interpreted it incorrectly!
Williamsmith
10-29-15, 2:53pm
Another recommendation I would have would be to have the resource officer dressed in business attire and not in uniform.
While I certainly agree that the use of force should be proportional to the situation, and this particular cop stepped over the line, I think it's naive to assume there will never be cases where force is appropriate. Otherwise you simply cede control to the wrongdoers. When George Wallace stood in the schoolhouse door, the Alabama National Guard was federalized and deployed to remove him.
I think they could have just cleared the classroom (remove the audience), and spent a couple of minutes talking her through the trouble she was getting herself into. And then call in a 2nd officer if that didn't work. Or just let her sit there. The kid was dumped into foster care recently, I expect her home life was less than ideal.
If she wasn't small enough to toss around, what would he have done? Shot her? And the argument she was disrupting the class pales in comparison to what the officer did - I expect those kids didn't learn much of anything that week (other than what can happen when you are noncompliant). Witnessing an incident like that can be traumatizing and even if you make the argument she deserved that, they didn't.
Ultralight
10-29-15, 4:22pm
I think they could have just cleared the classroom (remove the audience), and spent a couple of minutes talking her through the trouble she was getting herself into. And then call in a 2nd officer if that didn't work. Or just let her sit there. The kid was dumped into foster care recently, I expect her home life was less than ideal.
If she wasn't small enough to toss around, what would he have done? Shot her? And the argument she was disrupting the class pales in comparison to what the officer did - I expect those kids didn't learn much of anything that week (other than what can happen when you are noncompliant). Witnessing an incident like that can be traumatizing and even if you make the argument she deserved that, they didn't.
I suspect many people, perhaps most people (even those on here), would say: "She learned a valuable lesson. Do not resist authority or you will be subject to state-sponsored violence."
Remember too, we're talking about a kid here. Kids do dumb stuff.
While I do agree that there are times when phones could be used in the classroom *for* learning, they are typically very much out of hand unless some rules concerning them are enforced. Doing snapchat and facebook all day long while sitting in class is just not conducive to learning, so the phones really do need to be put away most of the time. Teachers aren't generally making up rules just for fun or for the sake of having rules, but sincerely wish to create a classroom environment that is safe and promotes learning for *all* students.
It does sound like the SRO used too much force against this student though and could have handled it differently.
awakenedsoul
10-29-15, 9:24pm
Hi Cathy, I haven't read all of the posts. You said you wanted to hear from teachers, so I thought I'd weigh in. I taught ballet and yoga for thirty years. I stopped a few years ago. At that time I owned my own studio. One of my policies was that there were no cell phones in class. I had some college students enroll, and one of them tried to argue with me about it. I told her she could go out in the hall and talk on her cell phone, but but that she couldn't disturb the class. I asked her, "Do you want to talk on the phone, or do you want to take the class?" She replied that they are allowed to have their phones at school. I told her that policy didn't apply to my classes. She said, "What if there's an emergency?" I told her that I had a phone in case of an emergency and that it was turned off during class. She quit the class. (and I don't give refunds.)
I can't believe how addicted people are to their phones. I find it incredibly rude when people's phones are ringing constantly. Having someone answer their phone and engage in conversation during a yoga class is totally inappropriate. It completely throws off the energy.
As far as this story in the news, I haven't seen the video. From what you are describing, it sounds bass ackwards to me!
Wikipedia actually lists the word "nomophobia" or, no mobile phone phobia, which is the fear of being without a cell. They qualify it as possibly an anxiety rather than a true phobia, but there is apparently some research behind it. It was a subject of our local news today and is pretty much out of my realm of understanding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomophobia
Wikipedia actually lists the word "nomophobia" or, no mobile phone phobia, which is the fear of being without a cell. They qualify it as possibly an anxiety rather than a true phobia, but there is apparently some research behind it. It was a subject of our local news today and is pretty much out of my realm of understanding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomophobia
The thing I wonder is just how often these people have "emergencies". Honestly I can't remember ever receiving an "emergency" phone call. I'm reminded of the woman in a class I once took who was telling the story of a traffic stop she had gone through the previous weekend where she felt the need to call her lawyer during the stop. My response was "you have a lawyer on speed dial???"
I've had people express shock that I silence my phone at night when I go to bed. And even did so last year when my father was in the hospital dying for 6 months. I'm not sure what they thought I was going to do if I was in San Francisco and got a call at 2am that my dad's death in Denver was imminent. Besides the fact that there would be no way I could just rush over there I had already said everything that needed to be said and was at peace with the reality that every time I saw him may well be the last time I saw him alive. When an 85 year old lifelong smoker with COPD has been in the hospital for months finally dies it's not an emergency. It's the expected course of events.
mschrisgo2
10-29-15, 10:14pm
Well, I'm a teacher... last year I had 3 students tell me they HAD TO HAVE their cell phones on a study trip, where phones were not allowed. Not my rule, the rule of the venue. All three parents told me- and then the principal- that the kids needed to have them "in case there was an emergency." The principal told the parents that is what the teachers and adult chaperones are for- to take care of emergencies, that children are not qualified to take care of emergencies.
At that point, 2 of the parents decided their children would not go on the trip- "because I won't be able to reach her to know if she's all right." WTH- ?? No trust in the school personnel, and people wonder why _the kids_ won't do what the teacher says.
The other parent told her kid how to sneak his phone on the trip. Of Course, it rang at an inopportune time, and was confiscated. Again, not be me, but by those in charge of the venue.
Phones were not allowed because they could interfere with essential telecommunication signals- and Create an emergency!!
early morning
10-29-15, 11:16pm
I'm a teacher too. None of my students ever have a cell phone, but then they also don't have their own underwear. The kids who are adjudicated into our long-term programs can earn the right to wear their own shoes, but everything else is off the shelf in the laundry room.
The consensus here is what the officer did with the girl in SC was way out of line. That was not a good take-down in any way shape or form, and would have gotten him fired HERE, if he'd done that in our detention center. We take down kids - some of our kids are quite dangerous and sometimes there are no better alternatives. Still, take-downs are a last resort, not a place to begin. Slamming a child to the ground, desk and all, is not a professional or morally defensible way to remove a student who is acting out in a non-violent way to begin with.
rosarugosa
10-30-15, 6:02am
Wikipedia actually lists the word "nomophobia" or, no mobile phone phobia, which is the fear of being without a cell. They qualify it as possibly an anxiety rather than a true phobia, but there is apparently some research behind it. It was a subject of our local news today and is pretty much out of my realm of understanding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomophobia
Rogar: I think I have the reverse, a phobia of cell phones and the creepy hold they appear to have over the people around me!
Ultralight
10-30-15, 6:29am
About two days into my two year experiment of not having a cell or smart phone I was walking through the grocery. An Arab man collapsed on the floor in front of me. He was having a heart attack or something.
Within 30 seconds I found both someone with a cell phone to call an ambulance and a registered nurse to tend to him until the EMTs came to take him to the ER.
I am certain that not having a cell or smart phone in very particular circumstances could be a dangerous thing. But I assume this risk. Why? Because I can really focus. It is not ringing, buzzing, vibrating, pinging, etc. all the time. I am not googling stuff constantly or shooting off a zillion texts a day (which is what I used to do).
I tell friends that I make plans with that if their plans change, and they cannot meet me or something like that, then they should remember that I assume the risk. So if I show up somewhere and they are nowhere to be found, I will just carry on and/or leave after a half hour.
My friends have no problem with this. After a while, most people seem to respect my no cell or smart phone lifestyle experiment.
Miss Cellane
10-30-15, 6:45am
My take on the situation, and I've watched the videos several times, it that the problem was really with the teacher and the assistant principal. However, I could be wrong, as we really don't know what happened in the classroom prior to the police officer arriving. And maybe there's a long history with this particular student. But for what it's worth, this is my take.
The teacher got into a power struggle with the student. Students having cell phones out in class when they shouldn't probably happens a lot. The school should be helping teachers with strategies to deal with this, frankly. But getting into a power struggle with a kid in your class is never a good idea. At some point, the teacher and the assistant principal should have just dropped the rope. "Okay, fine, keep the phone. You've just doubled your detention--two weeks instead of one." Or double/triple whatever the normal consequences for disobeying a teacher would be. Let the kid have the "victory" of keeping her phone out in class, but make darned sure she and all the other students knows that this act of willful disobedience will come at a price. Then get on with the business of the day--teaching the rest of the students. In my limited teaching experience, once the kid who is seeking attention doesn't get any, they tend to stop messing around so much.
Because what happens after their attempts to reason with the student is just messed up. Since when do we arrest kids for disobeying in class? If two educated, trained adults can't get a student to obey a simple rule--there's a problem in that classroom/school. And calling in the cops is an admission that discipline is broken.
The girl didn't start hitting the cop until he grabbed her around the neck. After that, he was flinging her, and her desk, back and then forward to the front of the room. It's amazing that she wasn't hurt.
And now that girl can go strutting around, bragging that she got a cop fired. This is the exact opposite of what the outcome for her should have been. She's in the press, she's the cause of getting a cop fired, she's national news. Whereas she should have been ignored and made to feel a bit silly because of her actions. She's just had tons of positive reinforcement for her actions.
What I hope happens as a result of this is that the administration of that school, and many other schools as well, will take a good, long look at their disciplinary codes, and figure out better ways to deal with stubborn, intractable teenagers. I know it isn't easy to do, but calling in the cops because a 16-year-old pouts and won't turn off her phone is a huge over-reaction. Teachers and administrators in the school should have been able to deal with this problem without the police.
And if the kid was a real danger to herself or others, she shouldn't have been in the classroom in the first place. But that's a separate discussion.
Ultralight
10-30-15, 6:48am
To those of you that are parents: Imagine that was your kid, misbehaving and so forth. Then imagine that cop choke slamming your child. Imagine your child feebly hitting the cop amidst the cop's choke slamming and such.
Really imagine it so you can get a gut feeling about it.
Now, would you go in and be like: "Officer, thank you for choke slamming my teenager."?
First, lack of respect these days is beyond anything I can even comprehend and trying to explain it to people is sometimes a moot point. I set a rule, I will respect you, you will respect me. First time they don't, out they go to the VP. Nip it in the bud early.
Second, as a teacher, I have very little authority and have to follow the rules to the letter or risk my career. I strongly disagree with trying to talk it out with children. They need quick solutions and decisive answers. We give our kids way too much leeway in the classroom these days because everyone is afraid of not being PC enough. Personal note- my son was choked by another child in 1st grade. They gave the offender 2 more chances that day and after he smacked another kid in the face THEN they did something. That kid should have been held accountable from the first offense. Thank goodness his mother had common sense to see this and apologized to us but it was after this kid got away with 2 more injuries to other kids.
Third, I would have removed the other students from the classroom before the resource officer arrived. I think there should be something in place for when something like this occurs. The class is going to get disrupted anyway and the others kids needs to be removed so they are not exposed to this situation. Not hiding anything, but you cannot imagine the violence kids see on a daily basis these days.
Fourth, the parents HAVE to be held accountable at some point. The school and teachers can only do so much. My biggest frustration I hear is "Not my child." It's not about picking on a kid. Obviously, this child has issues beyond authority.
Ultralight
10-30-15, 8:08am
I respectfully disagree. I think talking things out with people is fundamental to a respectful society of communicators who can think, listen, and express themselves.
This is a school, not the Army. Absolute authority, control by force, rapid following of orders, etc. dilutes the educational environment where kids need to learn to think and be creative.
Now this student was noodling on her cell phone. She was not choking someone.
Obviously, in cases of violence a violent student, staff member, educator, or cop requires a swift, decisive action to stop the violence promptly.
But we're talking about a silly teenager with a bad home life fiddling around on her phone here. Kids do dumb stuff, people! It happens.
Does it really deserve a choke slam? Does this kind of thing really require that we make our schools into little authoritarian regimes where dictators with thugs rule by force?
Rogar: I think I have the reverse, a phobia of cell phones and the creepy hold they appear to have over the people around me!
I think I have that same phobia... or maybe it's just an anxiety : ).
Zoe Girl
10-30-15, 10:08am
I have not read everything here but I can relate very much. I had a post I typed whiel half asleep over the work forum where I did a poor job of talking about this. Basically my soccer team has been struggling with team work and respect and fell apart in epic fashion on Wednesday. Just truly horrible. The coach is a very nice guy, he works as a math fellow during the school day which is a dedicated math tutor and usually a recent college grad. I am the administrator and the after school authority for behavior. It just kept getting worse as we worked on it so i ended up suspending 7 out of 13 players for a practice. I have talked to 2 parents, had restorative justice circles 2 times with some of the kids, and am still contemplating if I can continue this team
As for talking to them, I am very focused on that but I could not get it done effectively. With one student who wanted to negotiate and argue my decision I just escorted her outside when i saw her parents car and shut the door and walked away. My head was going to explode. This was super difficult and I have 30 years of meditation and work with Non-violent communication, and yet I still have to do this without physically harming or even touching a child. The next day I started pulling kids in pairs with the support of our restorative justice staff person and getting some conversation started. There is still a lot to do because there is limited understanding on their part of how serious it was during practice and our RJ staff is working with me. I have done school mediations before and sometimes families/kids are just seriously out of touch but most of the time you can get some real progress with this type of work. It is a lot of time and I think we expect school to have X hours of seat time in math, not x hours learning to sit next to another human being who breathes funny.
I don't know what happened there, I agree that there should be training in a dozen ways to avoid anything physical like that happening and support to make the decisions that keep everyone safe.
rodeosweetheart
10-30-15, 10:10am
I don't think cell phones have any place in the classroom, but then you have something like Columbine, where a cell phone could save a student's life.
I think schools are way too large. His senior year, my son went to a K-12 rural school where his graduating class had 27 kids. That was so different than his prior high school of 3500 kids. It was the best educational experience any of my kids had. They were a family, those kids, had known each other since kindergarten.
I wish all schools were small, and all students were treated like family.
Until we get away from the current educational model, I can't see how we can solve these problems.
Zoe Girl
10-30-15, 10:17am
the phone issue has totally transformed. 3 years ago in trainings it was very unprofessional to have a phone out at all unless you had a dying person you were caring for. We got some leeway since we sometimes got emergency calls in our line of work. Phones became different when instructors started having us take a photo of a white board with notes rather than typing and emailing. Then about a year ago a large training with my school district encouraged us to tweet and instragram during the training for converstation purposes. I even did my trainings last May using pinterest. I was training staff on activities to do with a book we read with youth over the summer and rather than email links I just added things to the pinterest page as we went and people could log in and even add to the page as they did their program. The only issue I had was advising people that the pinterest page on my tattoo ideas was NOT for training purposes but we are all adults and nothing was questionable.
So that is why I really push for more critical thinking in education as compared to old style, which means that maybe the role of phones is changing.
Miss Cellane
10-30-15, 5:13pm
Well, now I've read that the girl involved recently lost her mother and was put into foster care.
This is the kind of thing that frequently causes kids to act out. Surely the school was notified of this?
I'm not saying that the student's actions were right, but they seem more understandable given this fact--her life is in upheaval and at 16, she probably has no way to process what she's feeling. And the way the school handled her situation seems even more over the top than before.
And it appears that she was injured to some degree in the incident.
So she's lost her mother, been put into foster care, had her whole world turned up-side-down, and now she's thrown across a room by a policeman.
But I still hold by what I said before--the main cause of this was the way the *supposed* adults in the room responded to her. They got too invested in "winning," instead of defusing the situation and concentrating on everyone's education.
And it turns out that South Carolina passed legislation that allows students to be arrested for "disturbing schools." It's a misdemeanor. I'd have thought it was for a student threatening a teacher or fellow student, or actively disrupting a class by yelling or throwing things. Not a kid who was holding a cell phone.
This whole incident--it makes me very upset.
I respectfully disagree. I think talking things out with people is fundamental to a respectful society of communicators who can think, listen, and express themselves.
This is a school, not the Army. Absolute authority, control by force, rapid following of orders, etc. dilutes the educational environment where kids need to learn to think and be creative.
I would suggest teaching in a high school for a week or two with only yourself in the classroom (no mentor teacher, no administrator, etc.) with all of the students and see how well it goes talking things out and reasoning with those who are disruptive. They are quite good at taking advantage of inexperienced, new teachers. While I agree that it is very important for teachers to build positive relationships with their students over time, there also needs to be a degree of overall discipline in the class or the students are not going to respect you. The students being disruptive are going to view you as weak and the students trying to learn are going to be annoyed because they can't learn (or may even feel unsafe) in such a disruptive environment. Good luck thinking and being creative.
If the rule is that the students are to keep their phones off and put away during class, then that's what they need to do. The classroom is not a democracy nor should it be. If phones and other devices are used within the classroom for learning, then it is at the teacher's discretion. I hardly think appropriately enforcing a reasonable set of classroom rules and procedures is being authoritarian or thuglike.
But then everyone these days seems to know more about managing a classroom than teachers do.
I would suggest teaching in a high school for a week or two with only yourself in the classroom (no mentor teacher, no administrator, etc.) with all of the students and see how well it goes talking things out and reasoning with those who are disruptive. They are quite good at taking advantage of inexperienced, new teachers. While I agree that it is very important for teachers to build positive relationships with their students over time, there also needs to be a degree of overall discipline in the class or the students are not going to respect you. The students being disruptive are going to view you as weak and the students trying to learn are going to be annoyed because they can't learn (or may even feel unsafe) in such a disruptive environment. Good luck thinking and being creative.
If the rule is that the students are to keep their phones off and put away during class, then that's what they need to do. The classroom is not a democracy nor should it be. If phones and other devices are used within the classroom for learning, then it is at the teacher's discretion. I hardly think appropriately enforcing a reasonable set of classroom rules and procedures is being authoritarian or thuglike.
But then everyone these days seems to know more about managing a classroom than teachers do.
So you are saying it was an appropriate response to what the girl was doing?
I would suggest teaching in a high school for a week or two with only yourself in the classroom (no mentor teacher, no administrator, etc.) with all of the students and see how well it goes talking things out and reasoning with those who are disruptive. They are quite good at taking advantage of inexperienced, new teachers. While I agree that it is very important for teachers to build positive relationships with their students over time, there also needs to be a degree of overall discipline in the class or the students are not going to respect you. The students being disruptive are going to view you as weak and the students trying to learn are going to be annoyed because they can't learn (or may even feel unsafe) in such a disruptive environment. Good luck thinking and being creative.
If the rule is that the students are to keep their phones off and put away during class, then that's what they need to do. The classroom is not a democracy nor should it be. If phones and other devices are used within the classroom for learning, then it is at the teacher's discretion. I hardly think appropriately enforcing a reasonable set of classroom rules and procedures is being authoritarian or thuglike.
But then everyone these days seems to know more about managing a classroom than teachers do.
+1..walk a mile I say...
I agree bekkilyn. It's so easy for people outside of the situation to say how things should be. Many teachers today have an almost impossible task.
So you are saying it was an appropriate response to what the girl was doing?
I'd already stated in an earlier post that it seemed the SRO's response was excessive in this circumstance.
catherine
10-31-15, 5:26pm
I would suggest teaching in a high school for a week or two with only yourself in the classroom (no mentor teacher, no administrator, etc.) with all of the students and see how well it goes talking things out and reasoning with those who are disruptive. They are quite good at taking advantage of inexperienced, new teachers. While I agree that it is very important for teachers to build positive relationships with their students over time, there also needs to be a degree of overall discipline in the class or the students are not going to respect you. The students being disruptive are going to view you as weak and the students trying to learn are going to be annoyed because they can't learn (or may even feel unsafe) in such a disruptive environment. Good luck thinking and being creative.
If the rule is that the students are to keep their phones off and put away during class, then that's what they need to do. The classroom is not a democracy nor should it be. If phones and other devices are used within the classroom for learning, then it is at the teacher's discretion. I hardly think appropriately enforcing a reasonable set of classroom rules and procedures is being authoritarian or thuglike.
But then everyone these days seems to know more about managing a classroom than teachers do.
+1
As I said earlier, I am not a teacher, but was a substitute teacher for a while. I respect the thoughts and experiences of people who are in the classroom every day. There are so many more challenges now than there used to be.
It's clear that the deputy misused his authority, but it does raise questions, such as UAs point that it's a shame that we need to put law enforcement in schools, and bekkilyn's points about the need for respect and discipline, neither of necessarily thwarts creativity and innovation in the classroom.
Thanks for your POV, bekkilyn
I am more accustomed to the current school setting, there are indeed officers in the schools. My district has safety and security that are fully armed.
However I am used to the police officers being necessary for the safety of the school because of the student and/or family actions. I know that last year the middle school continuation ceremony was held during daylight and had armed police. I have seen one of the kids I know handcuffed for running into the street and then taking swings at the administrator trying to get him to the school or sidewalk. That is a LOT to work with when you are trying to teach,
Personally I think the officer should have been fired for excessive force and asshattery (come on...taking verbal abuse should be part of the training. Otherwise you are just George Zimmerman in the class room), and the girl suspended for asshattery too*. Both were acting bad. One should have been the adult in the situation.
*she wasn't being disruptive, throwing things or screaming stuff. She was just ignoring the teacher. Not acceptable, but not at the level for the police to be called. She should have been informed of the consequences of her actions, then ignored in kind until break, where she was suspended. Parents called, etc...
I have found that with my kids, when consequences were carried out without histrionics or emotional outbursts, they were understood as THE consequence of bad action. Period. I know it is hard, but when you remove the emotional component of consequence, it becomes just the consequence.
As someone pointed out, when you hire an SRO they're expected to do something. They probably get bored sitting around all day waiting for an incident. So you get a huge overreaction to a small provocation.
Actually, our SRO is all over the district, doing positive PR for the school children and parents, attending events, setting up events, she attends 2 classes a week, where the kids can ask questions and offer insight and solutions to current school events, etc. She works helping the school crossing guards out. She is responsible for maintaining social media websites, along with helping with normal police occurrences, if she is needed. The idea that she is just sitting around waiting to pounce is not an accurate portrayal but I can only speak for our school district.
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