View Full Version : Viva France!
gimmethesimplelife
11-19-15, 6:15pm
I have to say I am very impressed with the French response to the terrorist attacks. I agree with French President Hollande that the Paris attacks were an act of war and Hollande did not pussy foot around - he claimed there would be a pitiless response from the French and indeed he seems to have followed through on this promise. My sympathies of course lie with legitimate Syrian refugees who are fleeing pure hell - OTOH, terrorist attacks are an act of war in my book and I'm glad to see another country other than the US for once stepping up to the plate and doing something about it. My take is that Obama at best has been weak in this area and maybe the combo of Putin and Hollande can, if not end the threat, at least significantly weaken it. What do you'all think? Rob
frugal-one
11-19-15, 6:42pm
Think it is about time other nations jumped in the foray. US is always asked to man up.
gimmethesimplelife
11-19-15, 6:57pm
Think it is about time other nations jumped in the foray. US is always asked to man up.I couldn't agree with you more. It does seem to me that it is always the US that gets into these things and it is the US that pays for it (both in terms of money spent and lives lost). It is far overdue to me that other nations step up to the plate in these instances where it does (at least to me) seem justifiable. Rob
Teacher Terry
11-20-15, 12:42am
I agree with you both.
Did France bomb anyone involved with their recent unpleasantness?
I couldn't agree with you more. It does seem to me that it is always the US that gets into these things and it is the US that pays for it (both in terms of money spent and lives lost). It is far overdue to me that other nations step up to the plate in these instances where it does (at least to me) seem justifiable. Rob
I think you're doing our allies a disservice. Australia, Belgium, France, Canada. Jordan, Bahrain, Denmark, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the UAE have all conducted air missions against ISIS.
frugal-one
11-20-15, 2:27pm
I think you're doing our allies a disservice. Australia, Belgium, France, Canada. Jordan, Bahrain, Denmark, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and the UAE have all conducted air missions against ISIS.
Not so. We are ALWAYS asked to give. Not so with all these other countries. They do contribute at times but not to the same tune as the US.
IshbelRobertson
11-20-15, 3:34pm
Well, thanks. Nice to have it confirmed that many Americans don't know WHO are their allies.
Well, thanks. Nice to have it confirmed that many Americans don't know WHO are their allies. A lot of us do.
It will be interesting though to see if our current government remembers. Let's say that one of our European allies invokes their rights under NATO and requires us to send ground troops into Syria, would our Commander In Chief comply? I wouldn't count on it.
Well, thanks. Nice to have it confirmed that many Americans don't know WHO are their allies.
Sadly, you aren't wrong. Many Americans have no idea of the contribution our partners in this latest coalition against what can only be described as barbarism have made and are making.
Williamsmith
11-20-15, 5:08pm
Well since we created this barbaric organization and helped it flourish by providing tools with which to warmonger and instructed them on how best to achieve regime change............well since the beast has lost its mind and started targeting its creator and anyone else that disagrees with.......shouldn't we take responsibility to dispatch this rabid animal after its failure to achieve our mission ? You have to ask yourself why Assad has to go, for that matter why did we sic the terrorists on Libya and Gaddafi, or why Hussein had to be fished out of a spider hole and hung, or what have we done to make all these places more civilized for the sake of what has this all been done? The spread of Democracy? Are you still drinking that cool aid? As I told all my kids growing up........you made the mess, you pick it up. You drop it, you bought it. It is just a big coincidence that all these countries are located right over the heart of the largest proven oil reserves known to man. And renewable resources will never replace fossil fuels....that is of course unless we convince the entire world to live like Ultralie Angler, one measly compact car and all their belongings stuffed inside.
IshbelRobertson
11-20-15, 6:24pm
Alan and LDAHL
Thankfully, I noted only SOME Americans were ignorant regarding allies...>8)
Well since we created this barbaric organization and helped it flourish by providing tools with which to warmonger and instructed them on how best to achieve regime change............well since the beast has lost its mind and started targeting its creator and anyone else that disagrees with.......shouldn't we take responsibility to dispatch this rabid animal after its failure to achieve our mission ? You have to ask yourself why Assad has to go, for that matter why did we sic the terrorists on Libya and Gaddafi, or why Hussein had to be fished out of a spider hole and hung, or what have we done to make all these places more civilized for the sake of what has this all been done? The spread of Democracy? Are you still drinking that cool aid? As I told all my kids growing up........you made the mess, you pick it up. You drop it, you bought it. It is just a big coincidence that all these countries are located right over the heart of the largest proven oil reserves known to man. And renewable resources will never replace fossil fuels....that is of course unless we convince the entire world to live like Ultralie Angler, one measly compact car and all their belongings stuffed inside.
I always thought the "It's all America's Fault" school of thought to be misinformed and a touch arrogant (at least for Americans). You could just as easily blame Britain and France for dismembering the Ottoman Empire into poorly thought out national borders.
Alan and LDAHL
Thankfully, I noted only SOME Americans were ignorant regarding allies...>8)
Some of us haven't forgotten how Britain carried Western Civilization's torch in the Summer of 1940.
IshbelRobertson
11-20-15, 7:33pm
Thank you!
The UK fought the second WW from 1939. My mother had two brothers who were PoWs. One, asailor torpedoed twice. The second time on the Baltic convoys and taken to Germany. The other, aged 18 when captured, forced to work on the Burma Railway.
We value our allies...
Jeffrey Sachs and I - and many others - agree with you, Williamsmith.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-sachs/let-the-middle-east-fight_b_5798242.html
Williamsmith
11-20-15, 9:58pm
I always thought the "It's all America's Fault" school of thought to be misinformed and a touch arrogant (at least for Americans). You could just as easily blame Britain and France for dismembering the Ottoman Empire into poorly thought out national borders.
I was very young when Vietnam was fought and luckily missed the draft by he skin of my teeth when Carter went to an all volunteer army. Later I applied to the Air Force as an educated officer in training but was offered a job in Law Enforcement six months earlier.
The all volunteer military exists only because of the huge budget, entitlements, health care, education and bonuses. Reinstate the draft and you will find out just how jolly we are about fighting wars in far away places for rich men's power struggles. Not too jolly. What we sow, we reap.
I was very young when Vietnam was fought and luckily missed the draft by he skin of my teeth when Carter went to an all volunteer army. Later I applied to the Air Force as an educated officer in training but was offered a job in Law Enforcement six months earlier.
The all volunteer military exists only because of the huge budget, entitlements, health care, education and bonuses. Reinstate the draft and you will find out just how jolly we are about fighting wars in far away places for rich men's power struggles. Not too jolly. What we sow, we reap.
I received my commission as an "educated officer" of the USAF in 1980. I didn't see much evidence during my service of being part of a mercenary corps of neocolonialist oppressors. Some of our enlisted people actually qualified for food stamps.
I received my commission as an "educated officer" of the USAF in 1980. I didn't see much evidence during my service of being part of a mercenary corps of neocolonialist oppressors. Some of our enlisted people actually qualified for food stamps.I enlisted in 1973, after the draft had ended. While in training, President Nixon announced that there would be no additional deployments to Vietnam outside of those personnel currently under orders to report. When I reported to my first permanent duty station, virtually all my co-workers were returning Vietnam vets. When I reported to my first overseas duty assignment in 1975, the final pullout from Vietnam was underway and my co-workers were either career military or 95% volunteer recruits. I'm not familiar with those "entitlements, health care, education and bonuses" Williamsmith talks about, I suspect a dis-connect.
I'm not familiar with those "entitlements, health care, education and bonuses" Williamsmith talks about, I suspect a dis-connect.
I see that the base pay for an E-1 is $1,546.80. Even with allowances, that doesn't strike me as soldier of fortune territory.
frugal-one
11-22-15, 12:49pm
Alan and LDAHL
Thankfully, I noted only SOME Americans were ignorant regarding allies...>8)
I realize who our allies are... just commenting on the percentage of funds US is always expected to contribute. No offense intended.
gimmethesimplelife
11-22-15, 1:24pm
I realize who our allies are... just commenting on the percentage of funds US is always expected to contribute. No offense intended.Exactly, Frugal One. This is what I mean too, and no disrespect intended to any US Allies. Rob
Williamsmith
11-22-15, 2:37pm
With all due respect to the sacrifices of our military....just want to mention a few of the benefits?
Nobody respects the efforts of the frontline soldier as much as I do. I won't take a back seat to anyone on that. I am a descendant of a Revolutionary War veteran who was shot by the British at Judge Chew Mansion, lost an eye and was granted one of the first military pensions in the history of this nation. My father was on Saipan WWII (the last war we fought in defense of our homeland), my uncles all of them served in the Korean Conflict and it was obvious it shortened their lives, my cousin disappeared in the jungles of Vietnam. But that doesn't mean I can't criticize the current mission and integrity of the people who construct, equip and use our armed forces in a foolish and wrong manner.
and primary to that mission is funding a service that offers greater perks than anyone in the private or public workforce in order to entice poor and middleclass kids into service such as:
A twenty year career gets you a 50% retirement check
and lifetime medical benefits
free training for future career in the public private sector
room and board
discounts and far greater purchasing power globally
complete job security
college credits and $90,000 for college after retirement
Va guarentee mortgage
Probably not all the perks but sufficient to show that it's a good gig especially if you are in the Air Force or navy and not a grunt on the desert floor in a dugout foxhole where most uneducated poor end up.
I don't know where you're getting the "complete job security" thing from. Military officers who fail to make promotions at certain stages are forced out, and all military members are subject to "Reductions in Force". The plan right now is to reduce the Army to pre-WW2 levels, for instance. Fewer than one in five military people ever qualify for retirement benefits.
There are many reasons people elect to serve, I'm sure some more noble than others, but I doubt big bucks ranks all that high on the list.
Williamsmith
11-22-15, 5:02pm
There are very few retirees between 15-20 years because of how the defined benefit retirement is set up.....and there are very few who stay past 20 years.....which shows why at least for career military......big bucks is the only reason they stay.
Those who do the fighting, after their first taste of the reality of an American Conflict scenario.......get the hell out. ASAP
A twenty year career gets you a 50% retirement check
and lifetime medical benefits
free training for future career in the public private sector
room and board
discounts and far greater purchasing power globally
complete job security
college credits and $90,000 for college after retirement
Va guarentee mortgage
So it's similar to the benefits you receive after retirement from law enforcement?
The college credits and educational benefits are not much different from various tuition reimbursement plans you're probably familiar with. The VA mortgage loan program I found to be just about useless after my 10% guaranteed loan on my first house.
It all sounds good though, except for that complete job security thing. I have no idea where that came from.
Williamsmith
11-22-15, 6:21pm
Well, if you want to throw stones, here's the comparison:
20 year career. 25 year career
medical benefits........I got decent benefits which I earned
training .......any profession . My training...law enforcement period.
cost of housing and food. I paid a mortgage and bought groceries for 25 years
discounts military. None, Zip, Nada
hey no more wars! Y'Ok. Same as me.....As long as there was crime, I had a job.
college credits....$90,000. You guessed it.......Expected Family Contribution on FAFSA....full boat.
guarenteed mortgage... Never...iI had to ask for a suspension twice because I wasn't being paid but working.
Alan, I understand your pride in your service. Cool. You should be. But don't defend the whole system. You know we have gotten involved in some rotten actions since Vietnam and you should allow yourself the room to criticize when it is appropriate. I don't want to disrespect the military, Injust want to reign it in a little bit. It is out of control.
Well, if you want to throw stones, here's the comparison:
No stones thrown, just a veterans perspective.
Well, let me give you my perspective as a spouse of a 30 year veteran.
So, you got medical benefits THAT YOU EARNED and the military doesn't?? Really?
Training...OK, sure, training. And how is that any different than someone entering a company on the ground floor and working their way up. That's how it works in the military. When you first join you are given the crap nasty jobs that no one wants to do and you work your way up as you learn. Isn't that pretty much how it works in all jobs everywhere? What am i missing?
Free food? Really? Boy I must be a schmuck cause I'm thinking somebody owes us 30 years of free food! And what makes you think we don't pay rent? Or mortgages? Obviously you are misinformed so let me tell you how it is. If you live on base (and some places you have to live on base) they send you a little 'report' at the end of the year detailing your finances. Right along with your earnings statement cause, you know, military pay taxes too. Anyway, this 'report' details the obvious discrepancy between what you think you are being paid and what you actually are being paid in cash. And surprise! things like housing are counted as part of your pay. Yep, if you live on base that much is withheld from your pay. Plus things like a library, a commissary, bowling alley, and anything else not directly military related is 'counted' and given a dollar value which is...yes, part of your pay.
College credits? You do realize these gays and gals have been attending school throughout their career.
Well, let me give you my perspective as a spouse of a 30 year veteran.
So, you got medical benefits THAT YOU EARNED and the military doesn't?? Really?
Training...OK, sure, training. And how is that any different than someone entering a company on the ground floor and working their way up. That's how it works in the military. When you first join you are given the crap nasty jobs that no one wants to do and you work your way up as you learn. Isn't that pretty much how it works in all jobs everywhere? What am i missing?
Free food? Really? Boy I must be a schmuck cause I'm thinking somebody owes us 30 years of free food! And what makes you think we don't pay rent? Or mortgages? Obviously you are misinformed so let me tell you how it is. If you live on base (and some places you have to live on base) they send you a little 'report' at the end of the year detailing your finances. Right along with your earnings statement cause, you know, military pay taxes too. Anyway, this 'report' details the obvious discrepancy between what you think you are being paid and what you actually are being paid in cash. And surprise! things like housing are counted as part of your pay. Yep, if you live on base that much is withheld from your pay. Plus things like a library, a commissary, bowling alley, and anything else not directly military related is 'counted' and given a dollar value which is...yes, part of your pay.
College credits? You do realize these gays and gals have been attending school throughout their career.
Peggy, you go girl! I love it when you're on the right side of a discussion. ;)
Williamsmith
11-23-15, 9:01pm
Well, let me give you my perspective as a spouse of a 30 year veteran.
So, you got medical benefits THAT YOU EARNED and the military doesn't?? Really?
Training...OK, sure, training. And how is that any different than someone entering a company on the ground floor and working their way up. That's how it works in the military. When you first join you are given the crap nasty jobs that no one wants to do and you work your way up as you learn. Isn't that pretty much how it works in all jobs everywhere? What am i missing?
Free food? Really? Boy I must be a schmuck cause I'm thinking somebody owes us 30 years of free food! And what makes you think we don't pay rent? Or mortgages? Obviously you are misinformed so let me tell you how it is. If you live on base (and some places you have to live on base) they send you a little 'report' at the end of the year detailing your finances. Right along with your earnings statement cause, you know, military pay taxes too. Anyway, this 'report' details the obvious discrepancy between what you think you are being paid and what you actually are being paid in cash. And surprise! things like housing are counted as part of your pay. Yep, if you live on base that much is withheld from your pay. Plus things like a library, a commissary, bowling alley, and anything else not directly military related is 'counted' and given a dollar value which is...yes, part of your pay.
College credits? You do realize these gays and gals have been attending school throughout their career.
Whoa , take it is easy. If I am misinformed it must be by the military websites themselves which state under benefits the following:
Medical and dental care for the whole family at little or no cost
Low cost group life insurance
weekends free
national holidays
sick days as needed
beyond salary, education and housing benefits a plethora of family services
earn full tuition with dozens of education scholarships and programs
Special loan repayment programs
everyone earns a salary plus bonuses and allowances
Allowances for housing, meals and uniforms
bonuses with additional job opportunities
after retirement....help you get loans, get job, get more training and find life insurance.
Boy things must have changed a lot since my time. Who knew the military took off on weekends and holidays?
Speaking of sick days, that reminds me of the only person I knew in the military to take a sick day. Dude went out on a nice summer day and got one helluva sunburn. When he reported to sick-call he ended up being charged with 'Failure to Maintain Government Property'. Do they do that to police officers in Pennsylvania?
Whoa , take it is easy. If I am misinformed it must be by the military websites themselves which state under benefits the following:
Medical and dental care for the whole family at little or no cost - yes
Low cost group life insurance - not sure.
weekends free - depends on job and rank and deployment. Non-deployed people may have to work weekends depending on their job, like health center, but the bulk of ndpm (non-deployed military) is 9-5, M-F.
national holidays - same. many ndpm wind up with basically a 4 day weekend for every national holiday, but this is at the option of their command.
sick days as needed - yes
beyond salary, education and housing benefits a plethora of family services - yes
earn full tuition with dozens of education scholarships and programs- yes
Special loan repayment programs - yes
everyone earns a salary plus bonuses and allowances - yes
Allowances for housing, meals and uniforms - yes. If you are E5 or lower you will live on barracks, and you will receive "free" housing and a "free" meal card, these are benefits that you do not see. If you live on post but not in barracks, this allowance is forwarded directly to the housing authority, you never see it. You will get a meal allowance (cash) and you can spend on meals as you please. If you live off post, you will get money for both housing and meals, again it's up to you how you spend that, it may or may not cover your particular choices. He was not sure about how officers are compensated, or whether these various allowances are taxed.
bonuses with additional job opportunities - ? not sure what this meant.
after retirement....help you get loans, get job, get more training and find life insurance. - yes
I asked my DH, whose basic job is dealing with enlisted people all day long. The above was his response for the active military (not civilian military) as of today. His experience deals primarily with enlisted people, was not really sure what officers get. Alan, I will say that the image of the stalwart soldier is not exactly what DH is seeing at this point, don't forget that these young people have the same sorts of society-fostered expectations of treatment as their non-military peers.
To me. the biggest "bonus" of today's military is that it's still a more or less guaranteed job. It's got decent benefits but beyond that, you really have to work to get fired from this job; if you are "laid off" they will find you something else. The biggest drawback, obviously, is the risk to your mental and physical safety, and the potential ugliness of the job you may be asked to do, as well as the less terrible possibility that if you are really stellar, you might do better outside the constrictions, like a really savvy investor might beat index funds.
QUOTE=Williamsmith;222427]Whoa , take it is easy. If I am misinformed it must be by the military websites themselves which state under benefits the following:
Medical and dental care for the whole family at little or no cost
Low cost group life insurance
weekends free
national holidays
sick days as needed
beyond salary, education and housing benefits a plethora of family services
earn full tuition with dozens of education scholarships and programs
Special loan repayment programs
everyone earns a salary plus bonuses and allowances
Allowances for housing, meals and uniforms
bonuses with additional job opportunities
after retirement....help you get loans, get job, get more training and find life insurance.[/QUOTE]
Well, and I know more than one military person who would like to use that 'special training' on the recruiter who painted those rainbow and ponies picture of military life.
Fact is, it's a job, usually like everyone else, except of course you can get thrown in jail for skipping out on a day of work. Jail. Do cops have that? Blue flu? Just let a military person try that sh*t.
You can also get thrown in jail, demoted, fined, etc...for not paying (Or being chronically late) your bills. I think that's the 'Special loan repayment program' you spoke of. Special Loan repayment programs? What the hell does that mean? Nothing special about them dude. They are standard loans just like any others. I'll tell you why they are. See, it used to be (maybe it still is to some degree) that banks hesitated to lend to military people. They were viewed as somewhat inconsistent, plus they moved around so much they didn't really have standing in one community. the government tried to help that by setting up loans for veterans. It isn't 'special'. They don't make your payments for you.
The GI bill. You do realize it's a contribution thing. Just like many programs in the civilian world. They pay and the member pays. The old GI bill has not been around for a long time. *Interesting fact, the GI bill was largely responsible for the incredible leap the country/economy made after WW2. All those farmers and day workers who would not be able to afford college otherwise were able to go when they came back after the war. The boon to the economy, not to mention our standards was incredible.
Everyone earns a salary? Humm...you're counting this as a perk? Do you think they should work for free? Did you work for free?
Allowances for housing, food....again, this is called PAY in the real world. Uniform allowance...HA! it was about $30 a year. Literally.
Bonuses with additional job opportunities.....I just love how they word combat pay. Yeah, if you have to go to a war zone where folks will be shooting at ya then they give you some extra cash.
Ok, by the time you retire you don't need all that sh*t. They don't help you get loans or jobs or insurance. When you have applied to separate they have classes you can take if you want before you leave to transition you to the civilian world. Some don't need this and some do. Again, just like in the civilian world, this is just retirement planning. I'm sure you were offered something similar.
Have I missed anything Alan?
Well, and I know more than one military person who would like to use that 'special training' on the recruiter who painted those rainbow and ponies picture of military life.
Fact is, it's a job, usually like everyone else, except of course you can get thrown in jail for skipping out on a day of work. Jail. Do cops have that? Blue flu? Just let a military person try that sh*t.
You can also get thrown in jail, demoted, fined, etc...for not paying (Or being chronically late) your bills. I think that's the 'Special loan repayment program' you spoke of. Special Loan repayment programs? What the hell does that mean? Nothing special about them dude. They are standard loans just like any others. I'll tell you why they are. See, it used to be (maybe it still is to some degree) that banks hesitated to lend to military people. They were viewed as somewhat inconsistent, plus they moved around so much they didn't really have standing in one community. the government tried to help that by setting up loans for veterans. It isn't 'special'. They don't make your payments for you.
The GI bill. You do realize it's a contribution thing. Just like many programs in the civilian world. They pay and the member pays. The old GI bill has not been around for a long time. *Interesting fact, the GI bill was largely responsible for the incredible leap the country/economy made after WW2. All those farmers and day workers who would not be able to afford college otherwise were able to go when they came back after the war. The boon to the economy, not to mention our standards was incredible.
Everyone earns a salary? Humm...you're counting this as a perk? Do you think they should work for free? Did you work for free?
Allowances for housing, food....again, this is called PAY in the real world. Uniform allowance...HA! it was about $30 a year. Literally.
Bonuses with additional job opportunities.....I just love how they word combat pay. Yeah, if you have to go to a war zone where folks will be shooting at ya then they give you some extra cash.
Ok, by the time you retire you don't need all that sh*t. They don't help you get loans or jobs or insurance. When you have applied to separate they have classes you can take if you want before you leave to transition you to the civilian world. Some don't need this and some do. Again, just like in the civilian world, this is just retirement planning. I'm sure you were offered something similar.
Have I missed anything Alan?
Nope Pegster, I think you covered just about everything
Williamsmith
11-26-15, 11:05am
And with all those explanations being made....let me wish you a Happy Thanksgiving. We live in the greatest country on earth. Enjoy and remain friends.
IshbelRobertson
11-26-15, 12:15pm
We live in the greatest country on earth.
Enjoy and remain friends.
Ahem...... Perhaps an 'IMO' might be in order here? :cool:
Teacher Terry
11-26-15, 12:45pm
I was reading this thinking what??? My first hubby was in the air force in the 1970's -weekends off-ha-ha, etc. I hope everyone has a great day:cool:
And with all those explanations being made....let me wish you a Happy Thanksgiving. We live in the greatest country on earth. Enjoy and remain friends.
And Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. And to everyone here. Happy Thanksgiving!
On this we agree. We do live in the greatest country on Earth. And so do the Brits, and so do the Germans, and so do the Japanese.....etc... Happy Holidays to all! May we all live in the greatest country/town/village on earth.
*"Where the women are strong, the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."
May I add, Every dog is the Best Dog Ever!:)
rosarugosa
11-26-15, 5:36pm
And don't forget the cutest cats!
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