View Full Version : Turkey shoots down Russian jets
IshbelRobertson
11-24-15, 8:12am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-34908469
Ultralight
11-24-15, 8:59am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-34908469
Uh-oh!
miradoblackwarrior
11-24-15, 10:15am
This just in--Turkey supposedly killed the bailed-out pilots!
This is crazy!
Ultralight
11-24-15, 10:16am
This just in--Turkey supposedly killed the bailed-out pilots!
This is crazy!
Why is this crazy?
miradoblackwarrior
11-24-15, 10:19am
What was the point of shooting the pilots? It is just escalating a provocative act! Turkey could have paraded them around and said, "Look what we found! I told you so!" Killing them just p$#@es the Russians off.
Ultralight
11-24-15, 10:25am
What was the point of shooting the pilots? It is just escalating a provocative act! Turkey could have paraded them around and said, "Look what we found! I told you so!" Killing them just p$#@es the Russians off.
Well, obviously I think they should not have killed them. But isn't this just... kinda what military forces do?
This just in--Turkey supposedly killed the bailed-out pilots!
This is crazy!
I've been reading that it was one of the Syrian rebel groups. What is your source?
Isn't Turkey part of NATO? Aren't there some rules against that kind of stuff?
Oh, I forgot........we're talking about people who don't give a crap about rules.
I need to read up more about this. I thought Turkey was working with the other countries in bombing ISIS.
Oh, I forgot........we're talking about people who don't give a crap about rules.
"People"??? What kind of "people" do you mean?
Ultralight
11-24-15, 2:28pm
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110612170446/broop/images/7/7a/Waltershocked.png
CathyA is the only one who gives a crap about the rules!
Back in War 101 they taught us that firing on a pilot escaping a damaged aircraft was a Geneva Convention violation, although he was fair game on the ground if he didn't surrender. It was also permissible to fire on rescue missions.
Ultralight
11-24-15, 2:38pm
Back in War 101 they taught us that firing on a pilot escaping a damaged aircraft was a Geneva Convention violation, although he was fair game on the ground if he didn't surrender. It was also permissible to fire on rescue missions.
I thought the Geneva Convention was a myth.
Back in War 101 they taught us that firing on a pilot escaping a damaged aircraft was a Geneva Convention violation, although he was fair game on the ground if he didn't surrender. It was also permissible to fire on rescue missions.
I'm curious to hear how everyone knows the Turkish military killed the pilots. Rather than, say, the Syrian rebels the Russians may have been bombing the moment before their plane was brought down. Anyone have a map handy, showing where the plane was engaged, where it landed, and some information on who killed the pilots, if indeed they even were killed? And any info on the Russian rescue helicopter that may or may not have been shot down shortly thereafter, over Syrian territory, perhaps engaged in rescue operations, perhaps by the rebels, perhaps using surface->air missiles provided by nations that perhaps belong to NATO.
Anyone even have a program showing which factions are active in that small bit of territory on the Syrian/Turkish border, who is backing which side, and what their goals are?
Waiting for some facts instead of Twitter updates....
Ultralight
11-24-15, 2:44pm
Vlad said it was The Turks!
I thought the Geneva Convention was a myth.
The Geneva Conventions apply to wars between signatory powers and to conflicts between a signatory and a non-signatory if the non-signatory declares an intent to abide by them.
In other words it's basically not applicable to modern / terrorist warfare where no specific country government is openly declaring war on another.
In other words it's basically not applicable to modern / terrorist warfare where no specific country government is openly declaring war on another.
Well, some countries are decent enough to more-or-less follow the "rules" even when engaged with non-state actors, just as a moral guideline.
Rules like "don't abduct people, take them to a naval base in Cuba, and waterboard them until you're happy, while sexually abusing them." You know...
Ultralight
11-24-15, 2:56pm
Well, some countries are decent enough to more-or-less follow the "rules" even when engaged with non-state actors, just as a moral guideline.
Rules like "don't abduct people, take them to a naval base in Cuba, and waterboard them until you're happy, while sexually abusing them." You know...
Zing!
Well, some countries are decent enough to more-or-less follow the "rules" even when engaged with non-state actors, just as a moral guideline.
Rules like "don't abduct people, take them to a naval base in Cuba, and waterboard them until you're happy, while sexually abusing them." You know...
Yes, I know, because we live in the most moral country on earth, you know.
Ultralight
11-24-15, 3:31pm
Yes, I know, because we live in the most moral country on earth, you know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VLhH2wCtAQ
I'm curious to hear how everyone knows the Turkish military killed the pilots. Rather than, say, the Syrian rebels the Russians may have been bombing the moment before their plane was brought down. Anyone have a map handy, showing where the plane was engaged, where it landed, and some information on who killed the pilots, if indeed they even were killed? And any info on the Russian rescue helicopter that may or may not have been shot down shortly thereafter, over Syrian territory, perhaps engaged in rescue operations, perhaps by the rebels, perhaps using surface->air missiles provided by nations that perhaps belong to NATO.
Anyone even have a program showing which factions are active in that small bit of territory on the Syrian/Turkish border, who is backing which side, and what their goals are?
Waiting for some facts instead of Twitter updates....
I haven't read anywhere that the Turks had killed the Russian pilots. The sources I read said that it was a Turkmen group inside Syria that was fighting against the Assad government, that either captured or killed the ejecting pilots on the Syrisn side of the border.
In other words it's basically not applicable to modern / terrorist warfare where no specific country government is openly declaring war on another.
No, just "wars between gentlemen".
I was talking about ISIS/Alqeada, etc. not caring about rules.
And I didn't mean NATO, I meant those who adhere to the Geneva Convention.
I suspect that regardless of the final details it means more military activity from Russia. As far as I understand the Syrian conflict, it's a confusing mess. The U.S. wants Assad out and supports some of the rebels but not the ones from ISIS, who we are bombing. The Russians are bombing all of the rebels, including the ones we support, and like Assad. And then there's France and the other allies. Maybe I have it wrong, but it sure seems like an opportunity for something to go amiss.
Miss Cellane
11-25-15, 7:05am
There's news that one of the pilots has been rescued and is safe. The other pilot appears to have been killed while parachuting from the plane, probably by rebel Syrian forces, but that is still unclear.
There's some analysis of the politics behind the overall situation here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34914375.
Turkey is in an odd position. After WWII, the country made the decision to align itself with Europe, rather than other Middle Eastern nations. Among other things, they changed their alphabet from Arabic to Roman, banned women from wearing veils or headscarves if they held public positions such as teachers, doctors, in universities, etc. Turkey became a secular state, as opposed to one run on religious (Muslim) principles, although, since 99% of Turks are Muslim, clearly that influences their government, just as the Christian majority in the US influences things here.
Turkey joined the UN and NATO, and would very much like to join the European Union. However, there are a few roadblocks to this. Turkey would be the first Muslim nation to join. There are also concerns about women's rights, the Cyprus issue, the Armenian genocide issue, and several other things.
One of the reasons that agreement on the refugee situation has been so slow in coming is that the current president wants a concession from the EU--visa-free travel for Turks in the EU. A large number of Turks live and work in European countries (about 1.5 million in Germany alone). Visa-free travel would allow more Turks to leave the country and get better jobs.
There are other issues as well.
Turkey is torn between Europe and the Arab countries of the Middle East. It has to keep both sides happy, as well as its own citizens.
It is not a simple issue. It is not black and white, but many, many shades of gray.
There was an interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal opining that the Turks defended their airspace so aggressively in reprisal for the Russians bombing ethnic Turks in Syria who opposed Assad. Apparently, the Turks are less impressed with Mr. Putin than many Americans seem to be. With oil down, sanctions in place and capital flight accelerating, it has become increasingly difficult to finance his military. They are also cutting back on recruiting in some regions out of concern that the ranks may include too many Muslim troops.
Putin has been relying on military adventures to help maintain his domestic position since he invaded Georgia. Perhaps his Syrian involvement will prove to be a bad bet for him. You have to wonder what his backers in the Russian elite are thinking right now.
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