View Full Version : Article: California massacre shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS
Ultralight
12-4-15, 12:11pm
Well, there you have it...
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-shooting-isis-idUSKBN0TN1SR20151204#Qxpe0z5PH9coVirh.97
Hey Ultralite......so how does this change any of your ideas? Just curious.
I've watched several interviews with the guy's family members........and it's a complete surprise to all of them. Really??? Really???
Either they weren't a very close family, or they're not being truthful.
I suppose asking for polygraphs on them would be considered outrageous and totally unamerican? But wouldn't it help?
Why can't we do things that help?
And yes...........certain governments can get out of hand........but we also can't tie their hands to do some very basic things.
Ultralight
12-4-15, 1:42pm
Doesn't really change my views. There are plenty of white, ex-military men who are American terrorists too. Profile them?
I try my best to judge people by their actions.
The other thing is that ISIS is a breed apart from almost all other Muslims. To say otherwise is like saying that the Ku Klux Klan speaks for all Christians.
I posted the The Atlantic article about ISIS elsewhere--it's really an excellent analysis of the cult (If you want to call it that).
Here's the link again.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
rodeosweetheart
12-4-15, 1:48pm
I'm not sure why the OP posted this, but it sure is sad when anyone shoots a bunch of people for any reason. Seems that when you do this, you effectively separate yourself from the rest of the human race. But not here to judge, luckily that not my job.
Ultralight
12-4-15, 1:52pm
I have said this before, many times. In college I spent a lot of time with Muslims. None of them ever did anything bad to me. We hung out, got along, broke fast on Ramadan, etc.
Now a few Muslim women refused to shake my hand (which irks me, silly rule) but not a big deal. And this is when I first got to college and was just meeting people. I had never met a Muslim before.
One Muslim I knew in college said something bad about Jewish people. But she was like a pariah.
By and large hanging out with Muslims was exactly the same as hanging out with my other friends in college.
My suspicion is that most Muslims are unremarkable folks, like most anyone else.
My orthodox Jewish friend won't shake hands with men cause women can't touch non-related men. But it doesn't impact her professional career. People are very understanding.
Having moved from rural Ohio to a big city 6 years ago, I see a lot more varieties of people from all across the spectrum of religions, cultures, nationalities, languages, ethnicities, sexual orientations, and on and on, I work with people from all continents except Australia and Antarctica. I see a lot more tolerance in this setting.
Maybe we just need to mix everybody up together to fix some of our social problems.
The methods for recruitment and actions taken by ISIS functions more like gang activity than either a cult or a political organization. Of course gangs are usually into fear and violence to generate profits rather than just mucking things up, it all seems to work about the same way. ISIS has stated vague goals, but the real motive doesn't appear to be much more than anarchy. A vehicle that can be used to inflict pain and suffering on others. With most of what they've done so far it really doesn't seem like there's much more to gain than that. Its pretty shallow even if the "others" are the infidels in the west. In any case their actions run in opposition to pretty much any Islamic teachings I'm aware of.
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg
Williamsmith
12-4-15, 4:22pm
Ishmael and Isaac..... pretty much sums it up.
Ultralight
12-4-15, 4:26pm
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg
Careful now... wouldn't want to offend...
The methods for recruitment and actions taken by ISIS functions more like gang activity than either a cult or a political organization. Of course gangs are usually into fear and violence to generate profits rather than just mucking things up, it all seems to work about the same way. ISIS has stated vague goals, but the real motive doesn't appear to be much more than anarchy. A vehicle that can be used to inflict pain and suffering on others. With most of what they've done so far it really doesn't seem like there's much more to gain than that. Its pretty shallow even if the "others" are the infidels in the west. In any case their actions run in opposition to pretty much any Islamic teachings I'm aware of.
From what I read in that article I linked to, their goals are to enforce a medieval interpretation of the Quran, establish a caliphate, and create chaos in order to hasten an apocalypse. The caliphate is key. Also followers are mandated to pledge allegiance to the leader, which is exactly what Malik did.
Ultralight
12-4-15, 4:44pm
In any case their actions run in opposition to pretty much any Islamic teachings I'm aware of.
Uh... might be worth giving the ol' Quran another read.
Ultralight
12-4-15, 5:17pm
From what I read in that article I linked to, their goals are to enforce a medieval interpretation of the Quran, establish a caliphate, and create chaos in order to hasten an apocalypse. The caliphate is key. Also followers are mandated to pledge allegiance to the leader, which is exactly what Malik did.
I just don't think an apocalypse is a good idea.
iris lilies
12-4-15, 6:32pm
I just don't think an apocalypse is a good idea.i was just going to write something snarky about your snarky remark upthread, but then this made me laugh.
Anyone on this website ALWAYS gets points for making me laugh!
Uh... might be worth giving the ol' Quran another read.
That really is not a good measure of Islam - judging Christianity solely on what is written in the Bible would make it look totally horrific.
Ultralight
12-5-15, 11:49am
That really is not a good measure of Islam - judging Christianity solely on what is written in the Bible would make it look totally horrific.
The Bible is THE text that Christianity bases its beliefs on. It is the word of god and whatnot. It is perfectly reasonable to judge Christianity by its central, definitive text.
Same goes for Islam.
If you take the bible away from Christianity and the Quran away from Islam what do you really have?
Knowing the bible so well and reading it all the way through multiple times and reading all sorts of theologians explanations was the main reason I'm no longer Christian.
(I know people who stay Christian without believing in the bible or in Jesus as divine. But if you don't have those two beliefs, why bother? And how does that even work?)
The Bible is THE text that Christianity bases its beliefs on. It is the word of god and whatnot. It is perfectly reasonable to judge Christianity by its central, definitive text.
Same goes for Islam.
If you take the bible away from Christianity and the Quran away from Islam what do you really have?
People having to judge themselves and others based on the actual merits of their actions?
Maybe it could be a way to judge Christianity or Islam as holistic entities (for myself, I don't think that has any actual validity) - but it doesn't work for judging Christians or Muslims. I can't tell what's in your grocery bags based solely on what store you go to.
ToomuchStuff
12-5-15, 2:35pm
Careful now... wouldn't want to offend...
Why not? Should I repost the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo
The Bible is THE text that Christianity bases its beliefs on. It is the word of god and whatnot. It is perfectly reasonable to judge Christianity by its central, definitive text.
Isn't that as naive as saying the US Constitution is THE central, text that America bases its political system on, and that we need merely read that document to understand and judge America? You're not leaving any room for interpretation. We thought it allowed laws against same-sex marriage until we didn't.
You'e also not allowing for the variation of Christian belief and millenia of evolving tradition. The Catholic version includes several books that most of mainline Protestantism does not. The sola fide dispute introduced during the Reformation still divides many Christian sects, but is by no means the only difference.
You certainly can't make blanket judgments about Islam simply based on the central text for much the same reason.
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