when the hoarder isn't home....

[freshstart]

My mom's friend and my aunt are helping her de-hoard her room and it is incredibly slow going. My aunt, who has a totally different relationship with things, confided in me how hard this is for her and frustrating. Been there, done that and could write the book. My mom was in another room and she showed me something she thought I should see. My mother's room is the Master, is rather large and has a large BR attached. She started opening drawers and closets and boxes and they are filled with empty pill bottles or meds she has not been on going back to 2001. I can see keeping old meds for a year, maybe 2 when you have a heart condition, the meds change constantly as things worsen. But not 14 yrs. One whole small dresser would be entirely empty if the empty bottles were removed, my aunt tried to empty that before we moved 2 1/2 yrs ago, no dice. 75% of her hoard would be gone if she would let go of this stuff. It would be the easiest de-hoarding ever. (She's a paper hoarder but they have that under control mostly now).

She became OCD about taking meds about 2 yrs ago, she will spend up to two hours checking and rechecking pills and writing things down over and over before taking them. And she takes pills at least 4 times a day, including the middle of the night. It does not matter what system "we" find (I have tons of ways to get patients to organize and take their meds), that OCD checking over and over never changes. She finally saw a shrink who said usually OCD with just one thing that cropped up seemingly overnight, is easily cured with a pill (but I am 99% certain she did not tell him she is a hoarder so this really likely isn't plain old OCD). Well, as the pill was increased, she became as confused as a bed bug complete with hallucinations. So she's back on the lower dose, no improvement, no change at all. So I am not expecting that this is going to be easily fixed at all if ever. Ugh, what a way to spend your last days; obsessively checking your meds and trusting no one.

Today she was gone for a few hours. It took everything I had not to go in there with a lawn and leaf black bag and throw those damn bottles and old pills away. The pleasure that would've given me, she'd have room to store the rest of her clutter so at least it's out of sight as she continues to de-hoard. Her desk has piles of shoe boxes filled with the bottles. She has enough that you truly would need at least one lawn and leaf bag. But as anyone with a hoarder person knows, you cannot do things like this.

Tonight I approached her gently, saying I had no idea that pill bottles were such a big storage problem, would you like to work on that with me since I'm a nurse and know what should be kept? She ended up bursting into tears and told me she was so proud of all the work she's done and then I "came in here and shit upon it". GREAT, I made her cry. But damn it, this part seems so easy and would give her so much space. But she will never see that. She told me when we moved in here, she never thought she'd have such a beautiful room. Later, she told me that again but added how she had messed it all up and is going to die in a room smothering her with her clutter. How she hates looking at it 24/7. And that's why those two are helping her.

Not snatching all of those bottles took everything I had. I even pictured her coming home (I would've used the new found space to put away the clutter left out) and seeing this picture perfect room and being happy. I know that would never have happened, she would've demanded the bag of bottles back, screamed at me like a fish woman and kicked me out of her life for a long time. But oh how I wanted that.

[iris lilies]

I'm going to ask a question that keeps floating in my head when you talk about your mother.

how much time does she have on this earth? You know where I'm going with this, no doubt.

if she's only going to be around another year, it seems to me that all of the angst about her piles of stuff is not worth it. When she's dead, it will be easy enough to pitch the piles. Is this too simplistic? I just do not understand you fighting with her about all of the stuff when soon enough there will be no barrier to tossing it into the garbage.

Its obvious that she's not willing to give up the stuff that you think she should give up in order to get to her "beautiful room." So be it, let her make these choices, and in this case she chooses stuff over the " beautiful room."

[Mary B.]

If it's causing her sorrow where it is, and she's unhappy with the way her room is, is it possible to pack it safely in boxes and put it somewhere else? I'm kind of of the same mind as iris lilies, and at the same time, thinking that if she is expressing dismay about the space it might be helpful.

I haven't been following this conversation, though -- sorry if I'm repeating or ignoring something you said earlier, freshstart.

[iris lilies]

I will also add that if it were me, I wouldn't let her draw me into her OCD drama. Apparently she cannot let go of stuff yet she wants a clean room. I can't solve that dilemma for someone else, that someone else has to make a decision on which pieces of crap to move out. If she is incapable of making a decision, then there is no crap moving out. End of story.

i don't have super powers to simultaneously keep 300 pill bottles in a space yet have that same space clear of pill bottles. I won't accept someone trying to place that mantle of superpower on me.

[freshstart]

If it's causing her sorrow where it is, and she's unhappy with the way her room is, is it possible to pack it safely in boxes and put it somewhere else? I'm kind of of the same mind as iris lilies, and at the same time, thinking that if she is expressing dismay about the space it might be helpful.

IDK, maybe, but I have for the most part stepped out of clearing the hoard and the plan. I only even looked in her drawers and closets because my aunt did not think I knew what the hoard was at this point, and I did not. Talking to her about it was a bad idea and I knew it, it is not something she and I can talk about. So it was my own fault. I'm going back to letting the people who are helping her help and let her know I am available if need be.

I hate the basement hoard and have spoken about that on here. But I have tried hard to let that go until I feel up to working on it or she has passed. We talk about it but mostly because she wants some random needle in a haystack thing from down there.

It is really hard, I have found, to predict when someone with what she has is going to die (primary pulmonary hypertension) because there are so many peeks and valleys. Last week, I was sure her going out was done for good, then she perked up and went to a play (although this then means utter exhaustion for 2 days)! Eventually the peeks are less high and happen less frequently, that's kind of where she is now. She takes one pill that costs 5k a month (she gets a grant), she has been told by my former colleague Hospice doc and by her cardiologist, that if she were to stop that, she would be gone in 2 weeks. Well, we have no intention of stopping that as it is the only thing that helps her breathe. She receives Palliative Care at home. My guess is a sudden cardiac event at any point or maybe a year with the valleys coming more often than the peeks. I'd be shocked at a year but I've seen it happen over and over.

[Chicken lady]

Fresh start, because your mother cannot say this, I want to say it for her - thank you for not throwing those bottles out.

I know it seems easy to you, but if that is the area she checks over and over, it is probably the hardest category for her. And she knows it is crazy. But knowing that isn't enough. Honestly, if she really has less than a year, I'd leave the hoard alone. If that is what your aunt feels like she needs to do and your mother wants to do it, fine. But I think your stepping back is probably wiser.

[freshstart]

thank you, Chicken lady. Making her cry brought back all the reasons why I am not involved in this. That I hurt her on a day she felt she had made so much progress makes me so mad at myself. I know this stuff, I get it the brain is wired that way, that it is too late to change her and to just bloody stay out of it, leave it to the people she feels comfortable with. If I could take back those words, I would 10x over.

[iris lilies]

OP, hang in there,
I eel for you.

If you mother were mine, my brother and I would be talking about discontinuing the $5k meds. We are macabre that way.
kidding, mostly.

[Williamsmith]

I remember the frustration I had when I tried to get my daughter to see why I did not approve of her boyfriend. And I tried to get her to quit seeing him. And at the time, she lived with me and didn't have the financial resources to move out.

So we argued. I threatened. After his first visit, I threw him out of my house. She stopped talking to me. I caught her in a few lies to cover up times she went to see him. I threatened. Then I caught her with this boyfriend I hated.

I threw her out of my house. I still remember her little car stuffed with all the things she could get in it as she drove down the drive. I had no idea where she was laying her head. I felt like shit. She was without me. I was without her.

I couldn't figure out why it all went this way. The harder I thought about it the more miserable I was. I would go into her bedroom and look at the curly creatures left over on her shelf. I remembered consoling her, hugging her and praying with her on nights I heard her crying from my bedroom.

But I couldn't justify reaching out to her and making it better. I had made a mess of our relationship but oddly enough I justified it all as necessary. I was sure her boyfriend would ruin her life. He had major health issues and a criminal history I didn't understand and it scared me to think of him being part of the family.

Then ............one day a strange car........the boyfriend. I was totally unprepared. He was at the door knocking. I knew I should answer but what was he here for? Should I go for my gun or just open the door? I don't know why but I Invited him in. He sat on the couch and looked me in the eye. He asked me if I would grant him the permission to marry my daughter.

I froze for a second. Everything in the room seemed to wait for my response. I was forced to make a choice between extending the misery or stepping out in faith. Faith that somehow, this whole journey ahead would all work out. Even though everything I knew said it wouldn't............I needed to now accept something everything in my being screamed against.

I told him that I believed everybody deserved a second chance and sometimes a third. I gave him my blessing and he went on his way.

We have mended our fences, my daughter and I. Her fiancé and i get along very nicely. I look forward to their upcoming marriage. As in most things in my life, the hardest thing to do is just get out of my own way.

[rosarugosa]

That's a great story, Williamsmith. It's so tragic when people become estranged from those they love. Glad you were able to repair the rift.

[sweetana3]

Says a lot of him that he came in peace to ask you. Bet it was hard on both sides. Thank you for telling us the story.

[Ultralight]

freshstart:

When my sis and I went home to "help" my mom and dad clean out their house we encountered some similar reactions from my mom. This was before I read up on hoarding. At the time I thought maybe my mom was just lazy and/or had bad taste in stuff. There was a part of me that sort of understood that something else was going wrong in her brain. But again, this was before I read the entire canon of research on compulsive hoarding.

But my mom actually surprised me with the irate maniacal intensity of her emotions regarding her hoard.

My sis and I started cleaning out the bookshelf. My mom would not give a single book away until she was assured over and over that it would go to someone who would read it and keep it for life. Every extraneous trinket haphazardly plopped upon that shelf was a valuable treasure. She would say: "That is a family heirloom."

My sis would snap back: "Not everything is a family heirloom. Familiar heirlooms are supposed to be special and rare."

My mom got really mean and nasty, said hurtful things to me especially but also to my sister. My mom went into some kind of fits -- with crying, shouting cursing, half-assedly trying to break things ("Fine! Fine! If this is worth nothing to you then I will just break it!"

Like the Russians putting salt in the soil so that the Germans couldn't/wouldn't take the land...

It was a bizarre experience to see someone acutely lose what little remaining sanity they had over what most anyone would consider garbage.

At that point I knew my mom had a real problem. This is why I read all the hoarding books, articles, blogs, etc.


This is just my opinion. But I think you should distance yourself in any ways you can from her hoarding problem.

You can't fix the problem by helping them clean or get organized. That is just not the reality of the situation. So you need to reduce the harm their hoarding does to you. And it does real harm!

I struggled with this for a long time. I finally gave up and said: "I'll just hire a company to throw everything away when she passes on."

My sis had a harder time letting go. She still thinks my mom is just lazy and needs someone to go in there with a box of garbage bags to clean the place up.

But now my sis is so busy with work and school that she doesn't think about it. I am glad for this, in a way. Because it was very stressful to her.


All this is to say I feel your pain.

[rodeosweetheart]

[QUOTE=UltraliteAngler;224274]freshstart:
. . .

You can't fix the problem by helping them clean or get organized. That is just not the reality of the situation. So you need to reduce the harm their hoarding does to you. And it does real harm!

QUOTE]

I think this is really, really good advice. Wishing you peace to approach the situation!

[catherine]

Great story, Williamsmith. Good for you. Not many people have the self-awareness, will or the strength to get out of their own way. We can't control other people, that's a certainty. If life were only like a soap opera where we could sweep in and give a heart-wrenching pitch to a loved one and change their lives forever (to our liking) but that just doesn't happen.

freshstart, you had a difficult task for sure, and I'm sure it was extremely frustrating--we all want the best for the people we love. As others have said, just hang in there. Your mother's lucky to have you.

[Chicken lady]

Actually, sometimes you can fix the problem by helping them get clean and organized. The problem is that the focus needs to be on the " helping them" part and not the "clean and organized" part.

It's a little like teaching a small child to cook. You have to accept that at first your kitchen is going to be completely trashed and you are going to have some lumpy, over-iced sugar cookies. But some day that kid will invite you over and make a really nice dinner. It takes years, not weeks. And you have to begin by making it a positive experience for the hoarder, even if the progress is barely noticable. Because the first progress happens inside the brain, and you can't see that.

And when you help somebody, you have to focus on their needs, not yours. Otherwise, they are helping you.

[Ultralight]

Actually, sometimes you can fix the problem by helping them get clean and organized. The problem is that the focus needs to be on the " helping them" part and not the "clean and organized" part.

It's a little like teaching a small child to cook. You have to accept that at first your kitchen is going to be completely trashed and you are going to have some lumpy, over-iced sugar cookies. But some day that kid will invite you over and make a really nice dinner. It takes years, not weeks. And you have to begin by making it a positive experience for the hoarder, even if the progress is barely noticable. Because the first progress happens inside the brain, and you can't see that.

And when you help somebody, you have to focus on their needs, not yours. Otherwise, they are helping you.

I'd like to see some research on this, like long term studies of hoarders who are helped by relatives and friends. I'd like to see if the hoard changes size or volume in any notable way and if so, for how long. The anecdotal evidence -- what I have heard from other family and friends of hoarders is that it simply does not work.

[Chicken lady]

It does not work if it is imposed from the outside.

It is usually imposed from the outside.

Hoarders are very invested in hiding/denying that there is a problem.

Because if we say things like "I am overwhelmed, there is too much stuff, I wish my house was (clean/organized/etc)" the first thing non-hoarders do is try to make us get rid of our stuff. We aren't ready to get rid of our stuff. We NEED our stuff - even if we don't really want it very much.

The FIRST thing is to learn to make good decisions about adding new stuff. Because stuff that isn't actually ours yet is easiest to handle mentally. Then once we start improving that decision making skill, we can apply it very slowly to the existing stuff. Leave the paper napkins in the restaurant, recycle the junk mail, copy the information into one of the saved notebooks and recycle all the slips of paper, throw away the plastic folder!.... It's now 6 months later and outside it looks like nothing has changed. Our support crew gives up. We backslide.

And until we feel safe admitting that there is a problem, until we feel like we are actually going to get help in the form we need instead of "help" that feels like an attack, we are going to be too busy investing energy in defending ourselves (and the hoard feels like an extension of self) to have any energy leftover to learn how to not bring home the paper napkins.

Also, usually "help" doesn't arrive until the physical environment has become a crisis, so there isn't usually a year or two available to invest in Pre-work.

[Ultralight]

That is just an awful lot to ask someone to do -- so much time and labor.

[Ultralight]

To the OP:

"Materialism fosters social isolation; isolation fosters materialism. People who are cut off from others attach themselves to possessions. This attachment in turn crowds out social relationships."
-- Rik Pieters, Bidirectional Dynamics of Materialism and Loneliness: Not Just a Vicious Cycle, Journal of Consumer Research

[Chicken lady]

Yes ultralite, it is. Very few of us ask.

But if you are going to OFFER to help, you have to understand, That is what help looks like.

If what you mean is "I will offer my physical labor to clean when you are ready to get rid of large quantities of stuff.". You should just say that and then wait for never to arrive.

[freshstart]

OP, hang in there,
I eel for you.

If you mother were mine, my brother and I would be talking about discontinuing the $5k meds. We are macabre that way.
kidding, mostly.

I have stood with it, arm up in the air, way out of her reach when she is being obnoxious. She's still resourceful, she grabs her stick thing that has grippers on the end, and hits me with it. I say, "two weeks, woman, two weeks," and we end up cracking up. This sounds horrible but we are dysfunctional enough that this can be said to the person as a joke and she finds it hysterical. That's the best part of my family sometimes.

[iris lilies]

I have stood with it, arm up in the air, way out of her reach when she is being obnoxious. She's still resourceful, she grabs her stick thing that has grippers on the end, and hits me with it. I say, "two weeks, woman, two weeks," and we end up cracking up. This sounds horrible but we are dysfunctional enough that this can be said to the person as a joke and she finds it hysterical. That's the best part of my family sometimes.

haha glad to hear there is some comic relief sometimes!

[Ultralight]

Yes ultralite, it is. Very few of us ask.

But if you are going to OFFER to help, you have to understand, That is what help looks like.

If what you mean is "I will offer my physical labor to clean when you are ready to get rid of large quantities of stuff.". You should just say that and then wait for never to arrive.

These are good points. But I also wonder if cleaning up at the hoarder's pace is essentially comparable to waiting for never to arrive.

I am not saying I have easy answers or even that there are any. I actually think that there are probably only difficult answers.

[freshstart]

Williamsmith, that is a wonderful story, I hope giving your DD away is one of the happiest (while at the same time saddest) memories you ever have.

[catherine]

To the OP:

"Materialism fosters social isolation; isolation fosters materialism. People who are cut off from others attach themselves to possessions. This attachment in turn crowds out social relationships."
-- Rik Pieters, Bidirectional Dynamics of Materialism and Loneliness: Not Just a Vicious Cycle, Journal of Consumer Research

That would explain why some people who lose their spouses or another social lifeline spin out of control hoarding-wise. I've never understood the appeal of HSN or QVC AT ALL, but if I were inclined to hoard, I guess I could find it to be a social outlet--attractive people talking about how this stuff can make your life better, a visit from the mailman to your door, and a new "friend" in the form of a purse or a necklace or a gadget.

[Ultralight]

That would explain why some people who lose their spouses or another social lifeline spin out of control hoarding-wise. I've never understood the appeal of HSN or QVC AT ALL, but if I were inclined to hoard, I guess I could find it to be a social outlet--attractive people talking about how this stuff can make your life better, a visit from the mailman to your door, and a new "friend" in the form of a purse or a necklace or a gadget.

I think that is indeed part of it. Most hoarders have a trigger. Something happens and it kicks their hoarding into high gear.

There is a genetic component though. I have also read about how it goes back to childhood. Kids without real connections to mom and dad can take up hoarding -- they attach themselves to stuff because it is all they have.

I often think this when I see a hoarder: "There is a person who just doesn't have enough people."

Since I am ever vigilant of my family's hoarding problems and I worry about genetics I make sure I maintain an active social life with like-minded people whose company I enjoy. I do this even though I am largely and introvert and a lone wolf (I like solitude too).

But I noticed that my parents -- my dad especially -- do not have many social connections. So I am trying to do the opposite.

[Chicken lady]

Fresh start - that sounds like my family! My father used to wheel my great grandmother into a corner and lock her wheelchair brakes. She wasn't strong enough to unlock them, and he would say "I don't know what you're complaining about grandma, you put me in the corner when I was naughty." and she would laugh and say things like "I spanked your bottom too! You just come over here and try that! I'll bite you!"

Ultraliteangler, I don't know that cleaning t the hoarder's pace is comparable to waiting or never to arrive. But it is slow. So if the hoarder is 80 and the hoard is awful, odds are definitely against you. My grandfather was never a recovering alcoholic, but one day he was an alcoholic tied to an oxygen machine with no one who would bring him booze. This made him only slightly more pleasant to be around on average but also completely eliminated to really good moments with the really bad ones.


My house is not done. But now, people see the bad parts and say things like "I could help you clean this up, it wouldn't take very long". (no you couldn't, yes it would.) instead of "oh my god.". And when I tell people who don't know me very well and have seen the pulic parts of my house that I am a hoarder they say "no you aren't"


See, people say "no you aren't" because being a hoarder is horrible and shameful and hoarders live in filthy rt infested garbage heaps. Just like "alcoholic" used to mean f"ilthy, broke, unemployed homeless person with no teeth or family that would claim him". Which I'm sure made it even harder to acknowledge and fix the problem!

[Chicken lady]

Also, I have a great family. A loving supportive family. A family full of hoarders who showered me with stuff and taught me that is was good. Sometimes the stuff comes with a lot of love, and when you're a kid, it's easy to get the love mixed up with the stuff. (and then somebody reads you the velveteen rabbit and you never get rid of another toy!)

[Ultralight]

Ultraliteangler, I don't know that cleaning t the hoarder's pace is comparable to waiting or never to arrive. But it is slow. So if the hoarder is 80 and the hoard is awful, odds are definitely against you. My grandfather was never a recovering alcoholic, but one day he was an alcoholic tied to an oxygen machine with no one who would bring him booze. This made him only slightly more pleasant to be around on average but also completely eliminated to really good moments with the really bad ones.


My house is not done. But now, people see the bad parts and say things like "I could help you clean this up, it wouldn't take very long". (no you couldn't, yes it would.) instead of "oh my god.". And when I tell people who don't know me very well and have seen the pulic parts of my house that I am a hoarder they say "no you aren't"


See, people say "no you aren't" because being a hoarder is horrible and shameful and hoarders live in filthy rt infested garbage heaps. Just like "alcoholic" used to mean f"ilthy, broke, unemployed homeless person with no teeth or family that would claim him". Which I'm sure made it even harder to acknowledge and fix the problem!

You make good points.

[freshstart]

To the OP:

"Materialism fosters social isolation; isolation fosters materialism. People who are cut off from others attach themselves to possessions. This attachment in turn crowds out social relationships."
-- Rik Pieters, Bidirectional Dynamics of Materialism and Loneliness: Not Just a Vicious Cycle, Journal of Consumer Research

oddly this is the opposite of my mom. My mom believes in the innate good in people, she makes friends wherever she goes, she will help anyone she sees down on their luck. We had to stop her from giving elderly people rides when she saw them everyday on her way to work, because sometimes they were not elderly by a long shot. She is naive in a sweet way about the human condition. I went to get blood work the other day, they figured out I was her DD and they went nuts, they worried why she didn't come in anymore and they asked for her number and both called within a couple of days! Hospital roommates become friends she does stuff with when they are better.

Her deeper social relationships are strong. She has many close friends dating back to HS. She was always doing stuff with friends until recently she decided they had to come here, going out to lunch exhausted her for two days.

while I see what you are saying and in the cases I encountered at work, this is so very true, strangely it does not describe my mom.

I read a lot on hoarding years ago and stopped, it felt too hopeless. And I don't think I need to start up again because the goal is not to get rid of the whole hoard, it's to do what she keeps saying- de-hoard her room so she does not hate being in it 24/7. She was very clear that she was ready to do this with her friend and my aunt and she has done an amazing job. No piles of paper sliding into other ginormous piles. Her personal items have been sorted and purged (she is fine with giving away too small clothes). So maybe she will accomplish her goal and fixing it up to look nice is something she will let me be involved with. And maybe she won't, time will tell. Either way I am going to remain divested unless asked for help. I'm sure it will still drive me crazy but she is not asking for me for anything except understanding.

Luckily, I could see before I did it, getting rid of all the pill bottles would be something I was doing solely for me under the guise of it being for her. And at least I am not my friend- her mother hoarded cleaned tampon plastic applicators for non-existent "craft projects". When she died, she found boxes and drawers and closets filled with them and we could not figure out, hadn't this older woman gone through menopause? I told her she should send them all to Damien Hirst, he'd do her "tampon craft project". Pill bottles pale in comparison, lol

[Ultralight]

oddly this is the opposite of my mom. My mom believes in the innate good in people, she makes friends wherever she goes, she will help anyone she sees down on their luck. We had to stop her from giving elderly people rides when she saw them everyday on her way to work, because sometimes they were not elderly by a long shot. She is naive in a sweet way about the human condition. I went to get blood work the other day, they figured out I was her DD and they went nuts, they worried why she didn't come in anymore and they asked for her number and both called within a couple of days! Hospital roommates become friends she does stuff with when they are better.

Her deeper social relationships are strong. She has many close friends dating back to HS. She was always doing stuff with friends until recently she decided they had to come here, going out to lunch exhausted her for two days.

while I see what you are saying and in the cases I encountered at work, this is so very true, strangely it does not describe my mom.

I read a lot on hoarding years ago and stopped, it felt too hopeless. And I don't think I need to start up again because the goal is not to get rid of the whole hoard, it's to do what she keeps saying- de-hoard her room so she does not hate being in it 24/7. She was very clear that she was ready to do this with her friend and my aunt and she has done an amazing job. No piles of paper sliding into other ginormous piles. Her personal items have been sorted and purged (she is fine with giving away too small clothes). So maybe she will accomplish her goal and fixing it up to look nice is something she will let me be involved with. And maybe she won't, time will tell. Either way I am going to remain divested unless asked for help. I'm sure it will still drive me crazy but she is not asking for me for anything except understanding.

Luckily, I could see before I did it, getting rid of all the pill bottles would be something I was doing solely for me under the guise of it being for her. And at least I am not my friend- her mother hoarded cleaned tampon plastic applicators for non-existent "craft projects". When she died, she found boxes and drawers and closets filled with them and we could not figure out, hadn't this older woman gone through menopause? I told her she should send them all to Damien Hirst, he'd do her "tampon craft project". Pill bottles pale in comparison, lol

Have you checked out the Children of Hoarders website?

[Chicken lady]

Freshstart, understanding can be the hardest thing. So, again, thank you.

[freshstart]

Most hoarders have a trigger. Something happens and it kicks their hoarding into high gear.

There is a genetic component though.

for some reason, believing she would one day be homeless triggered my mother's hoard. She grew up modestly, daughter of a milk man, they are not rich but they were almost middle class (whereas my dad came from nothing). Tiny house, shared very small room with a teeny closet and a 3 drawer dresser with my aunt, she couldn't have a lot of stuff. My grandmother was German, every item had it's place, zero clutter. She married my poor dad who yanked us out of poverty over a period of years of practically non-stop working. When he got his degree and a State job, my mom was able acquire things and she had a normal amount. But her constant refrain was her fear of being a bag lady. So as things wore out or broke, they got kept in the basement for "just in case". She was never the kind of hoarder who shops to feed their hoard. Then it became papers and eventually my dead grandmother's "important papers"- a box filled with thirty years of her electric bill, utter crap that has been moved from house to house. My grandmother died in '88 and they have been dodging those boxes of her papers for 27 years. She would receive a gift of a nicer item of one she had that was old and raggedly and down to the basement went the old item "just in case". She's like the Depression Era baby who turns out like this. But she was not raised that way. IDK, enough armchair analysis, I don't want to "get it" but I do. I don't want to be left with the hoard but I will and that has to be ok.

[freshstart]

Have you checked out the Children of Hoarders website?

no but I will

[freshstart]

Freshstart, understanding can be the hardest thing. So, again, thank you.

I didn't do anything. It makes me so sad to hear you say hoarders are regarded as people who live in utter filth and it's shameful. To me, it's an illness or a disorder, and just as taking the alcoholic's booze away rarely solves the problem, neither does taking the hoard away. You shouldn't be made to feel ashamed.

[kib]

I have a question. Do you think that messy hoarding is just a matter of running out of room? I think there may be a psychological difference between accumulating, and having drifts of disorganized mess. When I tried to unpack boxes my DH packed up from our old house, I was kinda shocked. In here we have some paper napkins, half a paintball gun, one sock. In here we have ... some paper napkins, a camping mess kit, the other half of the paintball gun, and a running medal. In here we have another running medal, a screw driver, half a bottle of soy sauce, some paper napkins, the crock pot, and the pump from a fish tank. Is congenital disorganization a thing??? Or is this a combination of hoarding and laziness?

ETA: This kinda matters to me because I've accepted that I live with someone who wants to hold onto a lot of stuff I think of as junk, but I have a much harder time with the idea that he somehow desires it to be a jumbled mess. (and if he doesn't, how do I help without taking on all the responsibility? When I watch him "clean up" and see him on autopilot, shoving his sweater into the magazine rack ...) I guess in my mind, there's a line of respect that is not crossed by accumulating, but is definitely crossed by leaving a mess everywhere.
He always thanks me when I organize the hoard, but he never stays on top of it, his "signature style" is drifts and piles everywhere even if drawers are labeled.

[Chicken lady]

I don't think you understand what a big deal it is for someone just to "get it"

[Chicken lady]

Eventually, most hoarders run out of room. It's just a race between their lifespan and their available storage. My grandmother lived to be 100. It was only in the last couple of years that the hoard started to eat the kitchen. The attic started going when i was a child and the basement went in my 20s. The living room, foyer, and dining room always looked gorgeous.

Have you asked him, non-judgementally (can you?) if he cares if the stuff is organized or messy?

[rodeosweetheart]

Chicken Lady, I am reading Messie No More by Sandra Felton and finding a lot there to think about, much helpful information on why I save what I do, and how I might save less. I recommend it if you haven't read it. I thought this line was particularly brilliant, and definitely see it at work in my own life and house:

"Clutter is a pile of unmade decisions."

This explains why my house gets more cluttered when I am depressed, as I shut down and can't make decisions when I feel like that.

I am spending this month processing stuff in the house--I won't call it decluttering, exactly, but putting it all together a la Marie Kondo and then thinking about it, processing it, deciding what serves me and brings me joy and what wants to go elsewhere and bring others joy. But I have been working so much in the last 5 years that I have not kept up and have kept avoiding these decisions. Some of the decisions are really hard for me to make, and some of them are very painful.

[Ultralight]

I have a question. Do you think that messy hoarding is just a matter of running out of room? I think there may be a psychological difference between accumulating, and having drifts of disorganized mess. When I tried to unpack boxes my DH packed up from our old house, I was kinda shocked. In here we have some paper napkins, half a paintball gun, one sock. In here we have ... some paper napkins, a camping mess kit, the other half of the paintball gun, and a running medal. In here we have another running medal, half a bottle of soy sauce, some paper napkins, the crock pot, and the pump from a fish tank. Is congenital disorganization a thing??? Or is this a combination of hoarding and laziness?

ETA: This kinda matters to me because I've accepted that I live with someone who wants to hold onto a lot of stuff I think of as junk, but I have a much harder time with the idea that he somehow desires it to be a jumbled mess. I guess in my mind, there's a line of respect that is not crossed by accumulating, but is definitely crossed by leaving a mess everywhere.
He always thanks me when I organize the hoard, but he never stays on top of it, his "signature style" is drifts and piles everywhere even if drawers are labeled.

Really good questions here.

If I may jump in...

Hoarding is not so much a question of running out of room because what does that really mean? Many hoarders will fill other's spaces with their stuff. They will also rent storage units or pile things in the yard. It really varies by severity of the compulsive hoarding disorder. Now I think some physical limitations or financial limitations can have an effect, but I don't think it is a key player.

Something to remember is the difference between a hoard and a collection:

Hoard=messy, often hidden, disorganized

Collection=clean, well-organized, shown off to others.

What researchers have found is that hoarders time to "organize" things "horizontally," whereas others organize things "vertically."

To be honest my understanding of this is not especially advanced. But someone who organizes horizontally would leave things spread out all over -- on kitchen tables, floors, open-air shelves, etc.

Vertical organizers organize things in an orderly way in closed shelves, not on tables, in well-categorized boxes, and in neatly designed closets.

This does not mean that all horizontal organizers are hoarders but it means they exhibit one of the traits of being a hoarder or potential hoarder waiting for that trigger moment.

I am a horizontal organizer. I set things on open shelves, on hooks on the wall, and on the floor -- everything where I can see it.

Hoarding is genetic to a degree. There is supposedly something wrong with chromosome 14.


Having 150 things makes my horizontal organizing work well enough. If I had 150,000 things then I might well be in a hoard.

[kib]

The story you are telling says to me that there are different things going on here, Chicken Lady. We moved into an empty clean house with plenty of storage less than three years ago and the visible hoard would have eaten everything by now if I wasn't here; it would look like a college dorm. This is not your grandmother's hoard.

He occasionally says to me that he is impressed with me because I "go the extra mile". IMHO the "extra mile" that gets the socks in the dresser drawer (and the drawer closed) instead of somewhere in the vicinity of the bedroom is not extra, it's adulthood. Yes, I'm judgmental about that. I might be frustrated with 100 pairs of socks, but I'll hold my peace, they're his. However, if I find them in the magazine rack, that's not hoarding, that's either some other issue, or it's basic disrespect.

[kib]

UL, that is really interesting. And it Totally works with what I'm seeing here - horizontal "organizing" as far as the eye can see. And my vertical organizing just creating more space for the horizontal kind. Does that really feel organized to you? Or are you always stressed, not knowing where anything is unless you can actually see it?

[Ultralight]

Yes, I'm judgmental about that.

Careful now... wouldn't want offend, would we?

Judging leads to offending and offending is the cardinal sin of America's politically correct culture. ;)

[Ultralight]

UL, that is really interesting. And it Totally works with what I'm seeing here - horizontal "organizing" as far as the eye can see. And my vertical organizing just creating more space for the horizontal kind. Does that really feel organized to you? Or are you always stressed, not knowing where anything is unless you can actually see it?

I appreciate you asking this tough question. I have asked it of myself and I am still mulling over my thoughts on it.

For me, storing stuff on open shelves or on hooks on the wall is the best way to do it. If the shelves and/or the hooks are there, I use them. If not, things end up on the floor.

I was always an absent-minded kid. My mom and dad would often find the remote control in the refrigerator! I went in for a can of pop and somehow "lost" the remote in there. haha

I attribute my need to have everything horizontally organized and visible as part of this.

I keep a big calendar on the wall, along with a big dry erase board. In the corner of my room is a duffle bag. I pile my dirty clothes on top of it. When I go to wash them I stuff them in the duffle to take to the machine. My razor, clippers, toothbrush, toothpaste, etc. is all out on the bathroom sink counter so I can see them.

You get the picture.

I often think: Should I build new habits and rewire my brain to organize some or all of these things vertically?

I don't know the answer. I have so few things that I can do a massive clean up in about 15 minutes. Just tidying up take 3 minutes. And I sense when I feel that my room is cluttered and I clean it up. Clutter gives me anxiety when it is sudden and it dulls my mind and depresses me when it is long term.

[kib]

And not judging leads to being treated like a maid. So what's worse, having low self entitlement, or offending? I know what the Donald would say.

[Ultralight]

And not judging leads to being treated like a maid. So what's worse, having low self entitlement, or offending? I know what the Donald would say.

What would the Donald say?

[kib]

I can identify with what you're saying, UL. I think my brain is wired quite a lot like yours - in my perfect world, my stuff would be really minimal, and visible. That totally doesn't work when there is someone sharing the space who overlays this with his own horizontal layer. It may be a primary cause of my own stress - I can't be the horizontal organizer I need to be in this environment, and I'm not really very good at vertical organizing, although it's the best choice I have available, so I'm constantly losing things, or being tasked with what is for me needle-in-haystack searches after I've just vertically organized but before I've actually got a handle on where I've put things. Do I have chartreuse embroidery floss? Seriously? Did you ask me that just to ruin my day?? :~)

[kib]

What would the Donald say?It wasn't as good a joke as you were thinking, sorry, he's just the king of self importance.

[JaneV2.0]

People have different visual approaches. In my "work areas." such as they are, I seem to need things close at hand. If I put items away, they might as well be lost for good. I've had some luck storing items in labeled plastic boxes, but the rest is within arm's reach. I'm gratified not to have to live with someone who is always trying to fix me. The SO is an uber-minimalist, so we definitely would need that duplex, or at least separate rooms.

Otherwise, I don't keep broken or useless items. I recycle (like it's my job), discard, and donate regularly. People have distinct styles and preferences; we aren't all cut out to be ascetics or minimalists.

I always wonder why no one ever seems to criticize people who hoard unspendable amounts of money, more houses than anyone could live in with walk-in closets as big as NYC apartments, cars, airplanes, etc. Is it because they can afford staff to keep it all tidy?

ETA: I do know, however, where the chartreuse embroidery floss is. All my floss is arranged by color, wound on little cards, and filed in boxes. Let me know if you want some...

[Ultralight]

That totally doesn't work when there is someone sharing the space who overlays this with his own horizontal layer.

This is one of the main ways a hoard can build up. A hoarder might well just keep layering and layering. Google image search "hoarding" and you'll see the effect. :(

[Ultralight]

I always wonder why no one ever seems to criticize people who hoard unspendable amounts of money, more houses than anyone could live in with walk-in closets as big as NYC apartments, cars, airplanes, etc. Is it because they can afford staff to keep it all tidy?

I criticize these types of people! I call their behavior greedy and gluttonous.

[kib]

This is one of the main ways a hoard can build up. A hoarder might well just keep layering and layering. Google image search "hoarding" and you'll see the effect. :(
I don't have to google it. :(

[Ultralight]

I don't have to google it. :(

:( Indeed...

[Chicken lady]

I am definitely a horizontal organizer. I go ballistic when people move my piles. You would think that I could turn the piles sideways, put them in file foldes , label them, and put them away in a file cabinet. I can't. I'm trying, but I can't. The physical location of the pile in relation to other things actually contains important data for my brain.

I've read the messies book. The problem is they think you can solve the problem by just making the decisions. Yeah. Just stop shooting up and you won't be addicted anymore. That only works if you are actually a person who has simply not been paying attention to the source of the problem.


My grandmother's house was huge. 4 stories. Full finished basement, 4 bedrooms, study, living room, dining room, eat in kitchen, library, laundry room, foyer, rear entry room, 3 baths, two walk in closets besides the bedroom closets, two car attached garage, two car detached garage with overhead storage room. Built in cupboards Everywhere! If I had my grandmother's house you' think Ultraliteangler lived here.

[Ultralight]

I am definitely a horizontal organizer. I go ballistic when people move my piles. You would think that I could turn the piles sideways, put them in file foldes , label them, and put them away in a file cabinet. I can't. I'm trying, but I can't. The physical location of the pile in relation to other things actually contains important data for my brain.

This is how my brain works. My tackle box is one flat, clear box, for example.


From what I have read another potential telltale symptom of being a hoarder is problems with direction. I have this really bad. I mean really bad. I never know North from West or East or South.

[Chicken lady]

I didn't know about the direction thing, but we used to live north west of Cinci and I once went downtown by way of Indiana. No one ever believes me when I tell them that.

[Ultralight]

I didn't know about the direction thing, but we used to live north west of Cinci and I once went downtown by way of Indiana. No one ever believes me when I tell them that.

God help us if we're ever driving somewhere together. haha

[Chicken lady]

I think we will be stopped from getting lost by the conflict over loading the car....

[Ultralight]

I think we will be stopped from getting lost by the conflict over loading the car....

:laff:

And...

:doh:

[JaneV2.0]

KIB, your problem seems beyond different styles--a problem that could be managed by separate, dedicated spaces. If you each maintained boundaries, the problem would be mostly solved. The problem seems to be that you've inadvertently signed on to be the maid. Maybe you could renegotiate that?

[Ultralight]

KIB, your problem seems beyond different styles--a problem that could be managed by separate, dedicated spaces. If you each maintained boundaries, the problem would be mostly solved. The problem seems to be that you've inadvertently signed on to be the maid. Maybe you could renegotiate that?

Time to walk that picket line, I say!

[Teacher Terry]

Kib: my hubby & I have the same problem. He keeps complete junk and he is really messy. So I give him is own space where he can be a mess. It is his office, garage, shed. A few times when he has been out of town I have been known to get rid of junk but if you leave it messy and don't make it neat they can't tell. The rest of the areas of the house are neat/clean. If he starts to make a mess I either bitch at him to clean it or I pick it up & dump in his office-depends on my mood. If I die first I am sure he will trash my beautiful home which actually bothers me. He was raised by a hoarder.

[Ultralight]

He was raised by a hoarder.

Sorry to hear this... :(

It is a tough road to be on for most all involved.

[Teacher Terry]

His Mom was a wonderful person that I dearly loved. She grew up very poor so that is why she ended up like she did. When she died she left behind a 2 bedroom trailer packed with stuff. Many items she bought were still in boxes & never displayed because there was no room. As an only child we had to deal with the mess which was fine. Most stuff just went to the thrift store or was thrown away.

[Chicken lady]

See, this is why it's not about the amounts stuff, hoarding is a cognitive/behavioral issue - I couldn't fit all of my stuff into a 2 bedroom trailer, but it would be sparse in my grandmother's house. It's about being unable to discard items you do not need and do not have space for, and being unable to resist acquiring things you have nowhere to store, to the point where it negatively impacts your life. It doesn't matter if those items are empty cans or antiques, rabbits, high end electronics, newspapers or gold jewelry. It's the behavior, not the objects.

The less money you have, the more likely you are to be pegged as a horder because the more likely you are to have limited space that gets full quickly.

[Teacher Terry]

Her house was not full of trash & unsanitary like you see on that show. NOt very clean & tons of stuff stacked everywhere. WE couldn't eat in the dining room & her oven was used for storage. When it was empty it was amazing how big the trailer really was. It had an extra big livingroom. A family friend was a poor single mom so we sold it to her for $5000 which was way under market & let her pay us 100/month with no interest for 5 years. She cleaned & painted and it looked really good & she was so happy. She could afford it and it was in a park so there was no land value. It felt really good to do that.

[Chicken lady]

Ah, I was picturing something smaller - my house is basically a 2 bedroom doublewide with a half story, basement, and porch added on, but Iliad to it everything in my ground floor - it would be a maze!

[iris lilies]

God help us if we're ever driving somewhere together. haha

Well you don't want me in the car with you two, I can never do directions.

But I CAN organize like a SOB. I was born thinking about organizing and consolidating papers and digital files and books and etc. I am very attracted to organization.

[kib]

I can do directions, really well. But I can't seem to remember where the heck I've put anything after I've come up with some snazzy organizing system. I have no idea if this is trying to deal with more stuff than I can handle, or if it's some cognitive decline.

I've come to the answer of taking anything in a shared space that doesn't belong there and putting it into a box that goes in DH's office. Occasionally I relent and put something where it belongs, if it's obvious - e.g. socks in the sock drawer, not the magazine rack. Marginal sanity. But he doesn't deal with the box(es) and it's a small office. I envision the classic box-maze within a few years. I've tried negotiating roles because I keep thinking I never agreed to the roles we're acting out, but it doesn't stick ... he 'forgets' and I let him. :|(

I think my own hoarding gene may have to do with the cognitive distance between being a resource Nazi, and wanting the best stuff. I want one travel towel. I sewed a bunch of very cheap microfiber washcloths together, voila, thin lightweight superabsorbent towel. Ugly as sin, otherwise perfect. Will last 100 years. Ugly as sin. Just the right size. Ugly as sin. But I know if I bought one of those fancy suedy ones for $40, I wouldn't be able to just throw away the homemade one - it's good! I don't want the ugly one. I don't want to waste money on the nice one that I don't really need. And i definitely don't want both. It's like this with basically everything I have. >8)

[Williamsmith]

I have read and reread this thread a couple times in order to comprehend the complexity of this phenomenon called hoarding. It's like facing off against an octopus. Know matter how you approach it you are bound to get slugged by one of the arms.

I am mostly of German decent, so they tell me, and from a very close knit extended family. We visited each other often and every house I was in was neatly organized and tidy. Clean and tidy was a family religion. All the matriarchs were children of the depression but they seemed to have put that behind them and embraced owning and caring for only what you needed.

Personally, as a teen and younger adult I had the horizontal hoarding thing going on. My bedroom was a disaster zone. And routinely, my mother would insist on making me pick up and put away everything in its place and throw away the clutter. Within a week, it was back to the mess.

I carried this on to college where I met the future wife. My college room was part of a disaster house known as a fraternity. She was the tidiest person I ever met. She kept my college room organized and clean. I liked organized and clean but I didn't seem to have the energy or time to keep it that way myself.

This kind of defined our relationship. Me making a mess, she cleaning it up to where I could never find anything I was looking for.

And then a life changing thing happened. I got a new job. One that required military type discipline. I entered the State Police Academy. You were forced to live with Spartan efficiency. Very few things but a ridiculous attention to the cleanliness and location of each item. Very rule driven and consequences for breaking those rules. So meticulous that the bed even had to be made in a strict manner. Your firearm had to be dust free. The floor washed and waxed and shined and only certain items allowed to be stowed under the bed. Shoes glistening with a spit shine.

This went on for 21 weeks. By the time I got home, my wife didn't recognize me. She embraced the new me. No more mess. No more clutter. A partner with the same standards.

As the years went by, there were times I had to catch myself going back to the horizontal mess. These were times when I felt overwhelmed at work. No energy to care about things at home. My tools in the workshops would end up scattered all over the place. My wife would hint that I needed to get down there and straighten up the mess. And eventually I would. I didn't realize my stress was being transferred to her just by my inability to address it.

So my point is, I think that the "condition" can be modified by extreme pressure but only in the atmosphere where the person feels committed or trapped in the reconditioning. If I had been allowed to be disorganized for 21 weeks none of this quest for organization would have become part of me.

Now that I am retired and relatively stress free, no one would believe at one time I was a pretty messy disorganized slob. I have few things, they are all in their place and ai get stressed when something new is added and something doesn't get moved out.

[freshstart]

I think we will be stopped from getting lost by the conflict over loading the car....

that was worth the price of admission!

[freshstart]

I am mostly of German decent, so they tell me, and from a very close knit extended family. We visited each other often and every house I was in was neatly organized and tidy. Clean and tidy was a family religion. All the matriarchs were children of the depression but they seemed to have put that behind them and embraced owning and caring for only what you needed.

So my point is, I think that the "condition" can be modified by extreme pressure but only in the atmosphere where the person feels committed or trapped in the reconditioning. If I had been allowed to be disorganized for 21 weeks none of this quest for organization would have become part of me. .

I wonder if many German families share organization, tidiness and having what you need as common values. I'm half German. My maternal grandmother was like this, very practical, having one of something was plenty, organized (almost Kondo-ized in some ways), no clutter at all except a rack of Hummels. I never in my life saw a pile of clutter, even when she got really old and could not do a whole lot. She died making her bed, sat down in a chair next to the bed and just died. And the bed was military made except for the pillow cases left to put on. I always saw that as she even died German. No fuss, no muss, and clean sheets on for the next guy. She was not strident in her tidiness, didn't freak out if the kids moved something, it's just the way she was. Which either explains my mom or makes my mom more inexplicable to me as ever.

my dad was Army and he is neat as a pin everywhere except his office. His closet looks like a military closet would, when he irons or shines shoes, they are a work of art. My mom was in the convent, spent half the day scrubbing floors and pots and pans and was only allowed a small locker of very specific things. So all her life, everything around her was neat and tidy, first at home, then at the convent (she left but not over the tidiness, lol). She married my dad and from what I can remember, that's when it started. That frantic fear of being a bag lady, I remember from when I was quite little. The thousands of times she said she was going to get huge piles of paper everywhere "under control", just ugh, done. I'm 45, she spent my entire life saying things like that related to the hoard, the ironic thing is just now, as she is nearing the end of her life, her papers are finally organized thanks to her friends. I never thought I'd see that day because I suspected she couldn't do it. And it will probably last all of a week, but, hey, it actually happened once in my lifetime!

I am a horizontal organizer with papers, I detest filing. I only recently started a 4 pocket filing system on the back of a door because you have to keep so many papers when dealing with disability. Otherwise, short need papers go in a small basket and stuff I must keep gets put in the "important" drawer without being filed, don't need to because I know they are in that drawer and flipping through it isn't terribly onerous. The rest of my organization is it cannot be visible unless I love it, I want things in closed closets and drawers.

[Teacher Terry]

My grandma was GErman & Polish & exactly like you described. My Mom said that during the war she had all her teeth pulled during the day and then went to her evening factory job. Really a tough woman.

[freshstart]

My Mom said that during the war she had all her teeth pulled during the day and then went to her evening factory job.

I don't think we build people like this anymore, certainly not the average American

[JaneV2.0]

Both my grandmothers were 100% German. I think they were probably tidy; maybe my father's mother more so. My mother's mother always had household help (and lots and lots of pretty things--she was a collector, like most of the woman on that side of the family) to keep her very big house (five children plus staff) shipshape. I, being only 75-80% German, must have inherited my tidiness gene (or lack thereof) from somewhere else. I'm pretty happy to have been built just the way I am, psychologically--and I'm not going to go out doing housework, you can bet on that. My collector grandmother went out walking to the bus stop; probably going shopping. rrrrr:~)

[Teacher Terry]

I think many in that time period were used to hard times & suffering so probably just a way of life. Me not so much:|(