Why do people feel the need to throw cold water on frugality?

[oldhat]

Is it envy? Fear? Petulance? This article in Slate (http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2015/12/sean_cooper_paid_his_mortgage_in_3_years_by_saving _ignore_his_story.html) is pretty typical the kind of thing I'm talking about: the anti-frugal snarkfest. While giving the obligatory nod to the idea of thrift, the writer proceeds to paint a picture of an actual thrifty person as a poor, girlfriendless wretch working three jobs when he isn't squatting in his basement living on Kraft mac and cheese. Personally, I have a hard time understanding why anyone wouldn't see this guy as someone who set an ambitious goal for himself and then did what he needed to do to make it happen, like someone becoming an astronaut or training for an Olympic gold medal. Nobody would dream of questioning those goals, but it's common to see people like the guy in the article represented as borderline pathological. I really don't get it.

[TxZen]

Because people are afraid of the truth. They would rather sit behind their stacks of credit card bills and debt and look "Good" than be realistic. It's just not the norm, especially in America. More is more..even at a cost here.

[SteveinMN]

Frugality, at least in the U.S., has long been associated with what you don't have (fancy new car, big house, designer purse, etc.) than what you do (paid-off mortgage, time spent not working overtime, etc.).

I suspect the American Frugality Foundation didn't spend enough on marketing the idea of frugality. ;)

[JaneV2.0]

People enjoy disparaging others for a variety of transgressions from the norm. You need to conform, dammit! It's human nature!

Also, everything you conceivably do is borderline pathological; that's so a psycho-medical model can be built and pharmaceuticals dispensed to treat it. It's the American way!


I think Steve has the right idea. Frugal people obviously need lobbyists. Seize the power!

[LDAHL]

In this case, it seems to be ideological. The author objects to stories about frugality because she feels they distract from the narrative that we are helpless pawns at the mercy of forces greater than ourselves. Mr. Money Mustache is an impediment to convincing the masses that they must fight for income redistribution.

[iris lilies]

To answer the question posed in thread title:

Helaine Olen is an established writer on finances who writes articles like this because
1) clickbait
2) it jives with her worldview
3) it's her established journalistic theme

She wrote a book which I skimmed and abandoned half way through because her dominant worldview kept interfering with the material. The first part of the book was a popular history of the financial advice industry including all of the major gurus such as Jane B Quinn, Suzy Ormann, etc. and that was somewhat interesting and valuable.

But I stopped reading after seeing the phrase "wealth inequality" about a zillion times as well as encountering the author's deeply held belief that Americans cannot make it in today's society because everything is stacked against them and only Nanny G can get them out of this fix using the extreme wealth of the 1%. Read all of her stuff, you'll see that it all supports this main idea.

While I know that many here agree with her more or less, I don't. I like the idea that many Americans CAN in fact take charge of their financial lives to live independent of consumer culture and to live an authentic life according to their values.

tl;dr the author is a boring idiot

edited to add: I see that Ldahl is onto her as well, haha

[Ultralight]

In this case, it seems to be ideological. The author objects to stories about frugality because she feels they distract from the narrative that we are helpless pawns at the mercy of forces greater than ourselves. Mr. Money Mustache is an impediment to convincing the masses that they must fight for income redistribution.

I think being frugal is my way of fighting for income redistribution. When I buy some "stuff" I am turning what was my income into some rich dude's income.

I consider it revolutionary to be thrifty. I am stickin' it to the man!

[iris lilies]

I think being frugal is my way of fighting for income redistribution. When I buy some "stuff" I am turning what was my income into some rich dude's income.

I consider it revolutionary to be thrifty. I am stickin' it to the man!

Try explaining that to Helaine, she thinks you should have all the stuff and The Man should pay for it.

That you don't want all the stuff doesn't register with her.

[Ultralight]

Try explaining that to Helaine, she thinks you should have all the stuff and The Man should pay for it.

That you don't want all the stuff doesn't register with her.

That is just wacky.

[LDAHL]

I think being frugal is my way of fighting for income redistribution. When I buy some "stuff" I am turning what was my income into some rich dude's income.

I consider it revolutionary to be thrifty. I am stickin' it to the man!

I like that the idea of frugality, especially the YMOYL version of it because it has so many facets to it.

You can look at it as an environmentalist ethic.

You can look at it as a philosophical or political statement, opting out (at least partially) of what you view as a corrupt or overly materialist "system".

Me, I think saving and working to become an independent small-scale capitalist means I will be free to spend more of my finite lifespan doing things that interest me. Maybe not all that noble as some other motivations, but it works for me.

I've got nothing against the Man. He's not such a bad guy when you get to know him.

[Williamsmith]

I've got nothing against The Man, as long as he is not trying to exploit my weaknesses or take advantage of me by utilizing dishonest business practices........or misrepresenting himself or his products.......or joining with other capitalists to short circuit natural market responses to gain a monopoly over certain sectors....or....well you get my drift.

As long as you understand that The Man only cares about his money...you will have a wonderful relationship with him. He will try to tell you what a sacrificial philanthropist he is but his essence is gaining power through money. Never forget that. Even when he gives money away, it is so that others will see him in a positive light or his God might grant him favors or that he might feel good about himself.

Capitalism is perhaps the best economic model but it is not perfect.

[rodeosweetheart]

I went to college in New England and came from New England stock, so I grew up with frugality.
My mother's family was from the South and lived through the Depression, so she grew up with extreme frugality. As in, her father single handedly fed and housed many families during the Depression, while running a tiny little grocery store, having lost his wholesale grocery business.
I think many groups of Americans have always been thrifty, lived thriftily, and maintained a very happy frugality.

To me, the change came about in broader culture around 1975, with the advent of widespread use of credit cards.

I don't think I see things the way that that columnist sees things, and my family certainly doesn't. I think she is proselytizing her worldview, and I am not buying it.

[rosarugosa]

I suspect the American Frugality Foundation didn't spend enough on marketing the idea of frugality. ;)

Good one Steve!

[flowerseverywhere]

Everything is a trade off. When we paid off our house we both took extra hours and worked 6-7 days a week. We got a lot of flack for always packing lunches etc. a few years of sacrifice and the payoff was immense. We were out of the habit of spending so we were able to retire early, have travelled the world while our ex coworkers and siblings are still working. We have the time as well to live in an immaculate house, eat fabulous food we have learned to cook at home and still travel when we want.

It it is your choice. Make some sacrifices for a huge payoff down the road or chain yourself to a job for a very long time.

[pinkytoe]

All I know is being frugal and living that lifestyle by choice makes one sort of a social outcast in many places. I had hopes that the recession would give folks pause to live a different way but seems like it is going just the opposite now that the economy is much improved in many places. Huge SUVs once again, huge houses...I'm on the wrong planet I think.

[Teacher Terry]

I am also surprised that the 2008 recession did not change people's habits, etc but it seems like everyone has forgotten.

[awakenedsoul]

Is it envy? Fear? Petulance? This article in Slate (http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2015/12/sean_cooper_paid_his_mortgage_in_3_years_by_saving _ignore_his_story.html) is pretty typical the kind of thing I'm talking about: the anti-frugal snarkfest. While giving the obligatory nod to the idea of thrift, the writer proceeds to paint a picture of an actual thrifty person as a poor, girlfriendless wretch working three jobs when he isn't squatting in his basement living on Kraft mac and cheese. Personally, I have a hard time understanding why anyone wouldn't see this guy as someone who set an ambitious goal for himself and then did what he needed to do to make it happen, like someone becoming an astronaut or training for an Olympic gold medal. Nobody would dream of questioning those goals, but it's common to see people like the guy in the article represented as borderline pathological. I really don't get it.

It takes a lot of discipline to do what he did. I've always admired people who make sacrifices to reach their goals. I've always done that myself, and will continue to do so.

Artists understand it. An artist is happy if he or she is making art every day. I've always lived on about $20,000. a year. I figured out how to do it, and I've kept up those habits. That way I have an ample emergency fund, and can still work towards my goals.

It really takes someone who has walked the same path to understand and appreciate it. My dad used to tell me, "Attitude is the magic word," and "Virtue is its own reward." He was always very successful, and at 85 years old, he still is. He set a very good example.

[Zoe Girl]

I am also surprised that the 2008 recession did not change people's habits, etc but it seems like everyone has forgotten.

I was already aware of frugality but went into the recession being pretty relaxed, and I will not ever forget this recession. I am surprised that even with the slow recovery that so many people have forgotten.

[ApatheticNoMore]

i think both can be true of course, the essay can be in part true that we are often are collectively pushed to settle for worse and worse standard of living in terms of even basic needs (which is mostly what matters), the guy paying off his mortgage can be part true for him.

[rosarugosa]

As far as forgetting the recession goes, do you think some people are oblivious to the cyclical nature of the economy, and feel like "thank goodness that is over, hope it never happens again?"

[pinkytoe]

do you think some people are oblivious to the cyclical nature of the economy
There might be a generational aspect. If the 2008 one was your first experience as a younger person, then you might assume all is well now. I think I have lived through three now. I know that what I see going on in my neighborhood and city is not sustainable if history is any gauge.

[Ultralight]

I know that what I see going on in my neighborhood and city is not sustainable if history is any gauge.

Do tell.

[catherine]

So, I read the article, and then I went onto the author's website and read the description of her book Pound Foolish, in which she debunks the personal finance industry. Here's one of the testimonials on her site:


“As Helaine Olen shows in this powerful exposé, ‘personal finance’ is the ultimate oxymoron. The financial challenges that most Americans face are not simply personal—they reflect the failure of our polices and our leaders to tackle growing middle-class insecurity. And the advice that self-proclaimed money experts provide is far from sound finance. Too often, it’s snake oil that only adds to the problem.” –JACOB S. HACKER, director of the Institution for Social and Policy Studies, Yale University, and author of The Great Risk Shift

So that seems to be her agenda in a nutshell. As much as I can criticize social policies, and no matter how much a agree with Bernie Sanders about the anemic middle class, I really think that attacking personal finance experts is going after the wrong demons. I was just listening to Dave Ramsey on my drive home from research yesterday, and he was talking about how where you go to college is no indicator of success (so don't say that your expensive college has a good ROI), but what is an indicator for success is grit. I found myself nodding and agreeing..

She is leaning very heavily on the fact that if you happen to be broke, sometimes the financial rules don't apply. I do remember being one of those obnoxious newly reformed people when I suggested to my brother that he read Dave Ramsey when he called to ask me if he could borrow money to avoid his and my SIL's health insurance being canceled. He was working many hours a day as a consultant but checks hadn't arrived yet. I was ashamed of myself when I heard that they had gone to McDonald's for their wedding anniversary. I don't think they needed to learn lessons on being more frugal--they were simply broke. I think that's the point she's making in her books, but for every penniless person like my brother there are 100 that need to hear all the lessons that personal finance gurus have to offer. I have benefited from all the ones that I've read--Robin & Dominguez, Orman, Warren, Ramsey, Bach and more.

Re the OP's question: Yes, it is annoying when people discount frugality out of hand as almost a failing or character defect, even. Her comment at the end of the piece that Cooper went out and bought a $1000 wardrobe.. what was her point? It reminds me of the people who attack a vegan who they catch wearing a leather belt--as if that one act discounts an entire way of life. Those people completely miss the point.

[Teacher Terry]

HOuse prices are also going up by us a lot and I was thinking the same thing that it is not going to last. We had a big boom & bust before. One thing that helps fuel it is that California people sell tiny million dollar homes and then move by us and pay cash and our prices sound cheap to them. They also say that many retirees upsize their home in retirement so they have room for extended family visits. REally? When we went to my parents the adults slept in beds & the kids on the floor in sleeping bags. What happened to doing this?

[pinkytoe]

One thing that helps fuel it is that California people sell tiny million dollar homes and then move by us and pay cash and our prices sound cheap to them.
Ditto here. And same are accustomed to certain amenities where they come from - fancy yoga studios, trendy expensive restaurants, specialty gyms, doggy day care - the list goes on. So one by one the affordable and authentic places are disappearing or raising their prices to stay afloat in a sea of new competitors catering to the fancy people.

[rodeosweetheart]

[QUOTE=catherine;225362]
I do remember being one of those obnoxious newly reformed people when I suggested to my brother that he read Dave Ramsey when he called to ask me if he could borrow money to avoid his and my SIL's health insurance being canceled. He was working many hours a day as a consultant but checks hadn't arrived yet. I was ashamed of myself when I heard that they had gone to McDonald's for their wedding anniversary. I don't think they needed to learn lessons on being more frugal--they were simply broke.
QUOTE]


I actually think your advice was the kindest thing you could do. Why would you feel ashamed when you heard they had gone to McDonald's for the wedding anniversary. It is what they could afford. We've had years like that, and it makes you appreciate the good times, and you look back on that and say, "we did okay, we managed to go out to Mcdonalds and you feel kind of proud of yourself for adapting.

I doubt if the situation was reversed, and you did not have health insurance, your BIL would go out and take on extra work so that he could pay your health insurance. Or feel bad that you went to McDonald's for your anniversary. Yet for some reason, he felt he could approach you to borrow money.

It was not until we took the Dave Ramsey course that we made radical changes to our life, sold the house to pay off medical debt, bought the fixer upper, made lots of radical changes. I am so grateful that we did, as today I can go to part time when my job has burnt me out so badly, and we actually have some money in the bank, and we are finally learning (at a rather advanced age) to live within our means for the first time in our lives.

So I think you gave good advice!

[iris lilies]

[QUOTE=catherine;225362]
I do remember being one of those obnoxious newly reformed people when I suggested to my brother that he read Dave Ramsey when he called to ask me if he could borrow money to avoid his and my SIL's health insurance being canceled. He was working many hours a day as a consultant but checks hadn't arrived yet. I was ashamed of myself when I heard that they had gone to McDonald's for their wedding anniversary. I don't think they needed to learn lessons on being more frugal--they were simply broke.
QUOTE]


I actually think your advice was the kindest thing you could do. Why would you feel ashamed when you heard they had gone to McDonald's for the wedding anniversary. It is what they could afford. We've had years like that, and it makes you appreciate the good times, and you look back on that and say, "we did okay, we managed to go out to Mcdonalds and you feel kind of proud of yourself for adapting.

I doubt if the situation was reversed, and you did not have health insurance, your BIL would go out and take on extra work so that he could pay your health insurance. Or feel bad that you went to McDonald's for your anniversary. Yet for some reason, he felt he could approach you to borrow money.

It was not until we took the Dave Ramsey course that we made radical changes to our life, sold the house to pay off medical debt, bought the fixer upper, made lots of radical changes. I am so grateful that we did, as today I can go to part time when my job has burnt me out so badly, and we actually have some money in the bank, and we are finally learning (at a rather advanced age) to live within our means for the first time in our lives.

So I think you gave good advice!

I agree. Going to McDonald's for an anniversary isn't the worst thing.

I would have loaned him the money, though, if I knew it was just a temporary one time cash flow problem and for something I consider very important, health insurance premium. But usually those problems aren't one time.

[catherine]

Thanks, rodeo and IL: my brother is very responsible and hard-working and he was going through tough times, so I did give him the money. He said he'd pay it back, but that's another thing I learned from DR: If someone asks you for money, make it a gift--otherwise it can lead to bad feelings down the road. Plus you don't want to put someone else in the position you are trying to avoid (i.e., debt/obligation).

[rodeosweetheart]

Thanks, rodeo and IL: my brother is very responsible and hard-working and he was going through tough times, so I did give him the money. He said he'd pay it back, but that's another thing I learned from DR: If someone asks you for money, make it a gift--otherwise it can lead to bad feelings down the road. Plus you don't want to put someone else in the position you are trying to avoid (i.e., debt/obligation).

What a great point. I had always heard Dave Ramsey say that, but I had never quite figured out why, and I think you have nailed it.

[JaneV2.0]

Ditto here. And same are accustomed to certain amenities where they come from - fancy yoga studios, trendy expensive restaurants, specialty gyms, doggy day care - the list goes on. So one by one the affordable and authentic places are disappearing or raising their prices to stay afloat in a sea of new competitors catering to the fancy people.

I have to say I think doggy day care is one of the best ideas ever. Dogs get to hang out and be dogs, people get to go to work guilt-free to make money to keep their best friends fed and their vet bills paid. And I say this as someone who has no history of dog ownership.

[pinkytoe]

I think doggy day care is one of the best ideas ever.
It is a great idea but to my mind, very expensive. At least the ones around here.

[ToomuchStuff]

I am also surprised that the 2008 recession did not change people's habits, etc but it seems like everyone has forgotten.


I've been around a few folks who over the years have said "what we need is a good old fashioned depression". According to them, a recession never cuts it. IME, some will get it, and some won't. Talked to an electrician buddy and his thoughts were he went from easy money, to working harder then he ever has, for less money.

Generally, though, I think people feel the need out of a mix of:
1. Ostrich syndrome
2. I can make the payments, I am fine
3. I am better then you
4. general male anatomy headedness.

I also think both the values, and the things we used to measure the classes, have changed since I was a kid. By changing those metrics, what happens it the middle gets divided up more. So many things that I would have thought of, as middle class as a kid, now "lower, working, or poverty" class have, so I end up knowing more opposite extremes.

[kib]

I think a radical financial shift that brings back frugality and a financially solid middle class is a lot like any other big shift, be it resource conservation, voting in a third party candidate, or saving the whales. If you're the only one doing it, it's not gonna happen ... but if you don't, who will?

I honestly believe that while Big is not interested in seeing a flourishing 99%, and yeah, this is a stumbling block for people trying to stay afloat, 98 of the 99% are doing nothing to push the issue in their favor. Why change for people who are delighted to lie to themselves?

[Williamsmith]

As long as they have television .....the old crowd or Internet....the young crowd......everyone is fine. Running water and electricity are probably still a must. Other than that? What's there to complain about?

[eleighj]

Everything is a trade off. When we paid off our house we both took extra hours and worked 6-7 days a week. We got a lot of flack for always packing lunches etc. a few years of sacrifice and the payoff was immense. We were out of the habit of spending so we were able to retire early, have travelled the world while our ex coworkers and siblings are still working. We have the time as well to live in an immaculate house, eat fabulous food we have learned to cook at home and still travel when we want.

It it is your choice. Make some sacrifices for a huge payoff down the road or chain yourself to a job for a very long time.

It is jealousy; most people would like to be debt free and able to live their own life, but can not due to debt. Over 15 years ago my wife and I paid off the house in 2.5 years, proceeded to educate our children with reasonable educations at state universities and we travel the world on our schedule. It takes a plan and a mind set to achieve. :)

Ed

[ApatheticNoMore]

Everything is a trade off. When we paid off our house we both took extra hours and worked 6-7 days a week. We got a lot of flack for always packing lunches etc. a few years of sacrifice and the payoff was immense. We were out of the habit of spending so we were able to retire early, have travelled the world while our ex coworkers and siblings are still working. We have the time as well to live in an immaculate house, eat fabulous food we have learned to cook at home and still travel when we want.

it's a trade off, but one is not better than the other. Tomorrow is not guaranteed anyone. While working 6-7 days a week, and thus not spending any times with loved ones and friends etc., you could have died young and enjoyed none. The company you slave away for the extra time won't miss you for long after you are gone, but the people you didn't see because you spent all your time working will.

The brown bag lunches is no biggie, but I subscribe to the philosophy: never work an hour you don't have to today.

[catherine]

And then you have the downside of disdain for frugality: apparently, according to the subtitle, more than one in five people will never get out of debt.

http://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2015/12/20/till-debt-do-us-part-americas-worsening-debt-probl.aspx?source=foo-bar&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=yahoo

[Ultralight]

As long as they have television .....the old crowd or Internet....the young crowd......everyone is fine. Running water and electricity are probably still a must. Other than that? What's there to complain about?

I must admit that I am with you on this.

The vast majority of people have full bellies and credit cards in their pockets. They can still go on shopping sprees at Wal-Mart.

[Ultralight]

And then you have the downside of disdain for frugality: apparently, according to the subtitle, more than one in five people will never get out of debt.

http://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2015/12/20/till-debt-do-us-part-americas-worsening-debt-probl.aspx?source=foo-bar&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=yahoo


Honestly, that is a better number than I thought. 4 out of 5 people will get out of debt someday. That is a lot more than I would have guessed.

[rodeosweetheart]

And then you have the downside of disdain for frugality: apparently, according to the subtitle, more than one in five people will never get out of debt.

http://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2015/12/20/till-debt-do-us-part-americas-worsening-debt-probl.aspx?source=foo-bar&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=feed&utm_source=yahoo

Catherine, I found this fascinating:
"What was shocking was that low-income earners (people earning $30,000 or less per year) were the most likely to say they're free of debt, whereas upper-income earners netting at least $75,000 in income per year were the most likely to be in debt. "

[awakenedsoul]

Catherine, I found this fascinating:
"What was shocking was that low-income earners (people earning $30,000 or less per year) were the most likely to say they're free of debt, whereas upper-income earners netting at least $75,000 in income per year were the most likely to be in debt. "

It makes sense to me. If you can train yourself to live on less, regardless of what you are earning, you have a cushion. Your financial habits are such a strong indicator of your future. I've been experimenting with only transferring $1,000. per month into my checking account. (I have paid the water and garbage bills for the year.) I try not to spend over that amount on my other expenses. (I own my cottage outright.) It really works. I usually have to transfer a little more money at the end of the month, but not much. When home insurance and property taxes are due, I go over the $1,000. It's just a very different way of living when you don't use credit cards or borrow money. Your focus changes.

[Tenngal]

I wonder how many young people are in the revolving "reward myself for working" situation. When I was younger (20s and 30s) I had a bad habit of rewarding myself by going into debt. Of course I was in a couple of stressful, long hours, sometimes dangerous jobs. It took losing one of those jobs to finally realize those things were not making me happy. And that the spending was just a revolving cycle.

[Williamsmith]

What appeal would frugality have if there weren't other people in debt to compare yourself to? And perhaps ....make yourself feel better.

[Ultralight]

I wonder how many young people are in the revolving "reward myself for working" situation.

Very good question...

[pinkytoe]

What appeal would frugality have
Thrift or frugality have always been appealing to me regardless of comparisons with other ways of living. I am drawn to efficiency and resourcefulness by nature. As I have often wondered, perhaps frugality is a genetic tendency passed down from far ago ancestors who had to be a bit more scrappy to survive.

[ApatheticNoMore]

What was shocking was that low-income earners (people earning $30,000 or less per year) were the most likely to say they're free of debt whereas upper-income earners netting at least $75,000 in income per year were the most likely to be in debt.

renting = no mortgage
possibly no or minimal college = thus no college debt either

the middle class gets into debt trying to get ahead, probably the main reason they do in many cases

those earning 30k or less lesser debt may not be a wiser choice in that case though, those with lots of college education especially but also a mortgage sometimes (assuming it's payable, if someone just went crazy here relative to income or faces extreme economic hardship, they'll lose the house anyway) may win the game in the end, they usually do ...


What appeal would frugality have if there weren't other people in debt to compare yourself to? And perhaps ....make yourself feel better.

:) well those other people (like the employer you slave yourself into the ground for) don't really care about you. Whereas you can still ensure you have the best possible chances for the future, but it's a trade off, on really betting every single cent on the future or getting the latte occasionally if that's your thing. And then one medical emergency or stock market crash could wipe it all out? Could happen, could happen. That's the world we live in, especially in the U.S. where there's no safety net. I wonder if the writer of the article attacking the financial advice industry attacks the "put your money in stocks" idea, I may have to read it.

I struggle back and forth with various ethical imperatives, the ethical appeal of non-consumerism is strong, but that has not to do with how one compares to anyone really.