Asbestos ceiling?

[Gardenarian]

Hi all,

DH and I are looking at a house (actually, two houses on one lot) as an investment. It's not a super deal, but it's in an awesome neighborhood and both houses are great, lots of character.

The one issue: The larger house possibly has asbestos tile in the downstairs ceilings. The tile ceilings are unattractive, but I could cover them with a textured (anaglypta (http://http://www.anaglyptaandlincrusta.com/product89.html)) wallpaper. Everything I read says that asbestos is safe as long as you don't mess with it...but what if there is a leak or fallen branch and the ceiling becomes compromised? And how does having asbestos effect the resale value?

I don't know for certain that they are asbestos tiles, but I'm wary of making an offer on the house and paying a lot of money for inspections and so on.

Would you buy a house with asbestos ceiling? Would you have it taken out (hard to get every last fiber collected afterwards!!) or would you leave it?
If it turns out to be asbestos, would you ask for a reduction in price?

We are planning on making a cash offer at about 10% below the selling price. It has been on the market since just before Xmas and houses in this area tend to be snatched up within a couple weeks. (This is a slow time of year.)

The owner claims not to know what the ceiling tiles are made of, though clearly there are new light fixtures throughout.

Suggestions?

[rodeosweetheart]

Ooh, if you are buying this to rent, think about it long and hard. Thinking about liability and health claims. Just thinking here.

Asbestos affects resale in a negative way, although professional remediation should take care of the problem.

Will you need a mortgage? If so, asbestos can be a problem.

Personally, I would look farther, but many folks would hav eno problem buying a house with asbestos after remediation or figuring out way to remediate it before the purchase.

[Gardenarian]

Thank you for the feedback! Even though I read over and over that it's safe, I can't get past the "EEK Asbestos!" factor.

We would be paying cash. The house(s) are in a highly desirable historic district; the smaller one could be used as a vacation rental bringing in $150-$175 per night. There is no asbestos in the smaller house (built in 1993.)

I would get an estimate on the remediation...though you always hear that it's best just to leave asbestos in place. I would be worried that one of those tiny little fibers would get to me.

I'm thinking maybe we'll put in an offer and do the asbestos testing right away. That's only $50. We could wait on the more expensive inspections until we got the word on the ceiling.

[Williamsmith]

Asbestos can be a real headache. But is it asbestos? You obviously have more than a passing interest in the house so why not ask the owner for permission to get it inspected and tested? The answer will determine your next move. Professional remediation is going to be expensive. You offer should be reduced by the cost of remediation. Otherwise is it really worth it to get in a bidding war?

[Gardenarian]

Williamsmith, I wish we could. But we are not allowed to do any inspections until an offer has been accepted :(

[kally]

we bought an old house 8 years ago. We were told that there was vermiculite in the attic, but it was safe if we just left it there. No worries.
Since that time no one will buy a house with vermiculute (just a possibility of asbestos) so it has to be taken out at some point. We took it out about 4 years ago, a hazmat company 4 days onsite $9000.00. Think long and hard about having any asbestos anywhere in the house.

[Ultralight]

At my parents' house when I was a kid they had a two story print shop from the previous owner out back in the yard. It was the size of a small house, perhaps 700 square feet. It was completely covered with asbestos. When I was about 14 they gave me the summer project of tearing it down and burning it in a "burn pile."

My tools were a claw hammer and a hatchet.

I wonder if it was bad for me to be working with asbestos like that.

[kib]

There is usually wiggle room in a contract, in other words you can back out (which also means you can lower your offer) if the house doesn't pass inspection. Your realtor should be able to expand on that, putting in a clause that specifically includes passing asbestos testing. Asbestos is IMHO "one of those things" - sort of like mold. You can probably live with it forever and never have a speck of trouble, but it would be a big liability in a rental or for resale.

[pinkytoe]

Do they have disclosure laws in your state? Here, it must be stated on a disclosure addendum given to anyone looking at the property so you know exactly what "defects" it has, asbestos being one. I believe it might also affect insurance rates.

[SteveinMN]

I guess I have a different view on this one.

Many houses are loaded with materials which seemed thoroughly modern at the time but which time proved to be dangerous. As we looked at replacing the windows in our mid-70's house, every contractor mentioned having to deal with lead paint, which was not completely out of the construction business by then. This same house had suspected asbestos-backed vinyl flooring in the kitchen; the installer had to seal and level it before the new floor went down. My rental property had some asbestos-lined ducts that had to be worked around when we updated the place. Many of the homes around here have to remediate radon, which just happens to occur in the soil beneath some houses and not others. For a while before homes were ventilated better, a tight house often resulted in mold, hidden at first and then creeping, like rust, out into the open. Current homes contain flooring and other materials in which aldehydes are present in off-gassing.

Sometimes it's perfectly okay to just encapsulate the material (as they did with our floor) and which they could do with Gardenarian's ceiling tiles. Much will depend on code and finding someone with the knowledge and integrity to deal with it properly. If it were me, I'd make a few calls and ask for a ballpark price on either removing or encapsulating the ceiling; you know the area it covers and you probably can describe the tiles well enough -- it hasn't been that long since they went out of fashion.

Houses will always have liabilities. I think it would be very difficult for any given renter to declare that, of their exposures in other properties, at work, with personal habits such as smoking, etc., their health problems came from your property. By all means, know what you're dealing with. But there are plenty of materials which have been used in buildings which are dangerous under certain conditions. If we all shyed (sp?) away from a property with problems, no one would ever buy a house.

[Gardenarian]

That makes a lot of sense, Steve. From googling around it looks like it would be 5-7 thousand for remediation, much less to have the ceiling sealed and painted. I will get on the phone tomorrow.

I feel that encapsulation is probably safer, but am concerned about resale.

[mschrisgo2]

I'm pretty sure asbestos has to be "disclosed" in California...
Is the price sufficiently reduced to cover the cost of abatement?
The fact that they are not disclosing something that seems obvious is probably why it is still on the market. People are leery of a "messy" purchase.

[Williamsmith]

What Steve said is indeed true and I would second that it is not a deal breaker and something you could overcome with some approved methods and a contractor willing to deal with it.

Im thinking more on the lines of......coming from somebody who has lost sleep over issues with houses.....can you reasonably expect to get over the EEEK factor as you put it?

[rodeosweetheart]

The costs of remediation can vary widely, so you want to get a really detailed estimate if you proceed with buying the house.

Once you have remediated, not a problem, but how much, that's the question, and you probably want to get more than one estimate, and will you need a mortgage, as this can affect whether you can get one, how it's handled.

And the eek factor is significant. My one son just bought a house with a tiny bit of asbestos remaining; he could deal with it. My other son just walked on a house with lots of mold; he could not deal with it. It was about their personal eek factors. I probably would have insisted on remediation prior and a clean air report prior to closing, but that's just me.

The problem I see that you are grappling with is a perception problem, and how much it will cost to fix it, and how that impacts your investment. Is it really below market value already? An do you want to deal with this--just like William Smith says, will you lose any sleep over it?

[Gardenarian]

It is NOT below market value, and I need to repeat that I am not sure that there is asbestos.

The houses in this area that have vacation rental units sell for high prices because they have the potential to create a lot of income - it's very near the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, with lots of cool boutiques and restaurants. It's a flat area that is great for walking and cycling. My DH and I are thinking that after DD is off on her own, we could sell our current (larger) house and move into the larger "asbestos house", which is around 1000sf. This would be a good investment for us in many ways, though requiring a bit of work.

There are disclosure laws. Many people just don't have their houses tested for lead, asbestos, mold, or radon, because if they find something, they HAVE to disclose it. I find it slightly suspicious that this house has new kitchen cabinets and lighting fixtures and the owner doesn't know if there is asbestos. I would certainly have it tested before drilling.

The question of asbestos came up because a previous offer was made on the house, inspections were done, and the inspector noted that "ceiling tiles may contain asbestos." The only other problem of note is that it needs a new roof and gutters. The previous offer was withdrawn because, well, they were first time home-buyers, and a lot of little things on the inspection freaked them out - a small leak from the hot water hose, need to install a couple of GFCI outlets - aside from the roof, probably $1500 in work needed.

Oregon makes it easy to withdraw an offer on a house for almost any reason, so I am not concerned about that. I just don't want to spend a lot of money and time testing and getting estimates on something that turns out to be a boondoggle. Of course if it turns out to be asbestos, I would ask for a reduction in the price - but that doesn't mean the seller would go any lower. That is the decision I have to make: Is it worth the risk of losing the inspection money?

Williamsmith, despite all the evidence to the contrary, I do feel pretty uncomfortable with asbestos. I think every house I've lived in has had ceiling damage at some point. Not too long ago I read a book about a woman with mesothelioma ("So Much for All That" by Lionel Shriver) and it was a frightening scenario.

Until now, I was unaware of how pervasive asbestos is in our buildings; if you live in a house built prior to 1980, the chances are that there is asbestos in your house. Most schools and other public building have asbestos ceilings (as well as insulation.)

[Gardenarian]

I guess I have a different view on this one.

Many houses are loaded with materials which seemed thoroughly modern at the time but which time proved to be dangerous. As we looked at replacing the windows in our mid-70's house, every contractor mentioned having to deal with lead paint, which was not completely out of the construction business by then. This same house had suspected asbestos-backed vinyl flooring in the kitchen; the installer had to seal and level it before the new floor went down. My rental property had some asbestos-lined ducts that had to be worked around when we updated the place. Many of the homes around here have to remediate radon, which just happens to occur in the soil beneath some houses and not others. For a while before homes were ventilated better, a tight house often resulted in mold, hidden at first and then creeping, like rust, out into the open. Current homes contain flooring and other materials in which aldehydes are present in off-gassing.

Sometimes it's perfectly okay to just encapsulate the material (as they did with our floor) and which they could do with Gardenarian's ceiling tiles. Much will depend on code and finding someone with the knowledge and integrity to deal with it properly. If it were me, I'd make a few calls and ask for a ballpark price on either removing or encapsulating the ceiling; you know the area it covers and you probably can describe the tiles well enough -- it hasn't been that long since they went out of fashion.

Houses will always have liabilities. I think it would be very difficult for any given renter to declare that, of their exposures in other properties, at work, with personal habits such as smoking, etc., their health problems came from your property. By all means, know what you're dealing with. But there are plenty of materials which have been used in buildings which are dangerous under certain conditions. If we all shyed (sp?) away from a property with problems, no one would ever buy a house.

You make a lot of good points here, Steve.

[pinkytoe]

Houses will always have liabilities.
I wonder about all the synthetic materials in new houses going up. They are usually very air tight too.

[iris lilies]

Agree with Steve. I live in an urban core of very old houses, so lead paint is rife. Asbestos installed in those stupid rennovations of the 40's 50' 60's etc is just one more thing to deal with. You deal.

[Lainey]

My house was built in 1978 and has those popcorn ceilings that every HGTV show homebuyer is horrified by but only for aesthetic reasons.
I've lived here 20 years and haven't changed them, although it's occurring to me now to wonder if it contains asbestos? 1978 was the exact year most if not all construction had to be done with asbestos-free materials, so mine could be either way.
But on TV they remove the popcorn ceiling pretty simply just wearing dusk masks, so maybe I'm worrying for nothing.

[jp1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popcorn_ceiling

Apparently the existing stocks of asbestos popcorn ceiling stuff were allowed to be used up so your ceiling may or may not contain it. If you just leave it alone you'll probably be fine, but if you ever decide to take it down I'd have it checked for asbestos first and then hire a professional abatement firm if it does have asbestos in it.

[Gardenarian]

We decided to go ahead and make a bid for the house. I'll let you know how it turns out!
It may be that the seller is stuck on the high price.

[rodeosweetheart]

Good luck; it does sound like a marvelous opportunity, and keep us posted.

[JaneV2.0]

I'm a vicarious home buyer. I say go with your instincts! And good luck.

[kib]

Good luck! :)

[SteveinMN]

Fingers crossed....