View Full Version : How much would you be happy with?
I always love this question.
1. How much money would it take for you to be happy? Actual number and what would you do with it.
I would say, $500K for us. I would put $350K away for later. The rest-
1. Truck for hubby- his dream truck
2. House on the Gulf coast- still would be small (less than 1000 square feet) but I would try to find something as close to the water as possible.
3. Harley for hubby- he loves to ride..brings him joy
4. Myself- I might buy another pair of nice flip flops. :)
5. Trip to Legoland for my son
6. Trip to Caribbean
7. Trip to Disney
8. Pay off my Jeep.
Seriously y'all..that is all I can think of.
I would want enough money not to ever have to worry about money - or worry about where to invest it. Give me some nice anemic t-bonds and I'm fine. I have more or less all the stuff I want and I more or less like my life. So ... about 3 million in the bank that could go to someone else when I die. In the ideal world, double that so I could have a nice amount to give away annually as well.
ApatheticNoMore
1-11-16, 5:18pm
two million after tax would probably work. What do I want 1) not to work jobs I hate and if I have to work again be able to find something I didn't hate 2) a house might be nice as well, but it's less important than just quitting my job.
I've been thinking of going with CDs or T-bills for everything anyway, and it's a strong urge. What's the worst that can happen? I live in poverty in my old age I guess, with meager money and whatever is left of tiny social security checks then. I have to do the math on tiny interest rates, but that worse thing that can happen isn't really all that bad compared to having nothing due to the stock market it increasingly seems to me.
I always love this question.
How much money would it take for you to be happy? Actual number and what would you do with it.
The question seems to imply that the person is presently not happy, though it might just be semantics?
My life became richer in non-material things, like free time and less stress, when I was able to disconnect from the traditional work force, but I was generally happy while I was working. I really don't have a desire for more money than I presently have, and that's not a huge amount. I have a fairly humble lifestyle and like it that way.
Williamsmith
1-11-16, 7:14pm
My happiness is not dependent on any increase in my income. But I would like to entertain myself by rolling around in a room full of hundred dollar bills just for shits and giggles.
I've been thinking of going with CDs or T-bills for everything anyway, and it's a strong urge. What's the worst that can happen? I live in poverty in my old age I guess, with meager money and whatever is left of tiny social security checks then. I have to do the math on tiny interest rates, but that worse thing that can happen isn't really all that bad compared to having nothing due to the stock market it increasingly seems to me. Yes, seeing growth of $0 or even $- because all the stable-if-small growth of the reliable investments is wiped out by the market volatility of the other ones is depressing and anxiety producing. One of these days I'm pulling the plug on anything not more or less "guaranteed", inflation risk be damned.
What I have now is modest but meets my needs and most of my wants. I have given my kids each a substantial sum to invest. I have enough!
I always love this question.
1. How much money would it take for you to be happy? Actual number and what would you do with it.
In college in the early-mid '80s, my roommates and I discussed this at great length, and decided $2 million was the magic number. It would allow you to buy a reasonable house somewhere pleasant, and invest the rest conservatively so as to have a gentlemanly income to live off of, freeing your life up for learning, adventure, public service, and so on. That would be somewhere between $4 million and $8 million in today's dollars, depending on your assumptions.
When I "retired" in 1999, in my mid-30s, I retained about $8 million for myself, and gave the rest (90% or so) away. This sum allowed me to purchase a home for myself free-and-clear, homes for my parents, procure a small "yacht" (helpful when living on an island), set up a boring income stream, and do some Needful Things in my local community. I also treated myself to a dozen pairs of my favorite Thorlo hiking socks.
I would have "retired" earlier, but a) I had several long-term research projects I was committed to finishing up before I quit b) I was fearful and didn't quite believe the math, or trust that I could "retire" for real.
freshstart
1-11-16, 8:21pm
Well, it's kind of been decided for me, since this health mess, I'm basically retired at 45. Since Vanguard and the work financial planers both told me I could retire easily at 55, I'm hoping I can "retire" much more modestly at 45 since that's 10 yrs of contributions I cannot make. I was assured by both that I would be fine using the money from the accts sooner and never touch the principle. But I was in a panic then and don't remember what the actual numbers were.
I hope to get through getting SSDI, have some money to send DD off to college and then finally be able to set a plan for myself. Once my parents pass, or sooner depending upon circumstances, I will sell my share here for something much, much smaller. A condo that allows a dog. I could be happy in a studio. I'd like enough money to visit my kids regularly wherever they end up. I do not need or want a lot.
I would feel safer with 250k more in retirement but no sense wanting what you can't have. Even if I had more, all I would do is save it. I'd like to have enough to leave the kids something and give to a few charities.
When I "retired" in 1999, in my mid-30s, I retained about $8 million for myself, and gave the rest (90% or so) away. This sum allowed me to purchase a home for myself free-and-clear, homes for my parents, procure a small "yacht" (helpful when living on an island), set up a boring income stream, and do some Needful Things in my local community. I also treated myself to a dozen pairs of my favorite Thorlo hiking socks. Why did you decide to give it away up front instead of gradually?
frugal-one
1-12-16, 8:44pm
The question seems to imply that the person is presently not happy, though it might just be semantics?
My life became richer in non-material things, like free time and less stress, when I was able to disconnect from the traditional work force, but I was generally happy while I was working. I really don't have a desire for more money than I presently have, and that's not a huge amount. I have a fairly humble lifestyle and like it that way.
A man after my own heart. I feel the same!
Why did you decide to give it away up front instead of gradually?
I gave it away to an entity that will give it away over time, perhaps a very very long time :-)
Teacher Terry
1-13-16, 12:02am
Bae, did you earn it or inherit it or both?
It's just a fun question...not judging whether someone is happy or not. Just having fun.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 9:49am
I'd be pretty happy if my student loans were forgiven. They are about $175k right now.
Williamsmith
1-13-16, 10:05am
UA......do you realistically feel you will ever free yourself from that debt? Do you know how much interest is accruing monthly on that balance and what the actual total cost of your education will be if you do manage to pay it off? What are the consequences for your future when money you could be investing for savings and retirement is being eaten up by your own government who together with banks conspired to create an environment where selling debt to students enriched colleges and banks with guarenteed money from the federal reserve? Just a few that pop into my mind.
Student debt of that magnitude enslaves you......don't you think?
Ultralight
1-13-16, 10:14am
UA......do you realistically feel you will ever free yourself from that debt? Do you know how much interest is accruing monthly on that balance and what the actual total cost of your education will be if you do manage to pay it off? What are the consequences for your future when money you could be investing for savings and retirement is being eaten up by your own government who together with banks conspired to create an environment where selling debt to students enriched colleges and banks with guarenteed money from the federal reserve? Just a few that pop into my mind.
Student debt of that magnitude enslaves you......don't you think?
Williamsmith:
All valid questions. Let me answer them one at a time.
1. I think I stand a fair chance to free myself of this debt, perhaps a 50% chance or so. I am part of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. So if I work for about ten years for the govt or a non-profit, make minimum payments based on my income for 10 years (120 payments in that time), and the govt does not change the rules -- then whatever is left will be forgiven. And there will be a lot left!
2. I have no idea what the interest each month is -- but I think it is mucho! :( My total cost of education will be horribly astounding, no matter if the aforementioned loan forgiveness thing works out or not.
3. My future is certainly in bad shape financially. I will probably never be able to retire (though I hope to only work part-time in my old age, if I live that long), but that is not just because of my student loans. That is also because of other bad choices I made, various government policies, corporate interests, and overall long-term economic decline of the USA. But my student loans are obviously a big problem amidst all these others.
4. Yes, I feel like a slave most days. On good days I feel like an indentured servant. It is incredibly disheartening to have so little agency in my own life. Depressing.
Williamsmith
1-13-16, 10:55am
Addressing the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program. After examining the details of this program, and there are many, it appears that they are encouraging the very thing debt counsellors advise against, that is making minimum payments on large monthly balances. Some of these loans carry 6.8% interest. A frugal man like you should abhore this, I would think.
I understand the carrot but I think they are being very crafty making it appear you are going to have all this fore giveness when in reality you are going to maximize your accruing of interest and will not be paying down on the principle.
So, let's say you chose a different route and made a valiant effort to actually pay off the loan in 10 years.......Targeting the highest interest rate loans first. What would the actual cost of freedom be? I say not that much difference. Foregiveness is deceiving, the way they have structured this. I would not like to be bound and controlled by a government I do not trust. You know they could easily make your payments a direct payroll deduction by your employer just like Social Security........and you know how that shapes up for you.
I am not criticizing you. Forgive me if it sounds that way. I am embarrassed for my own government.
freshstart
1-13-16, 10:59am
UA, unsolicited advice, my soon to be SIL is in that 10 year repayment program you are in. She got lupus and had to take time off from work but did not handle whatever paperwork she had to with the loan forgiveness program. After 5 yrs in, she had to start all over with the 120 payments. Which seems ridiculous at best, cruel at worst, people get sick. She missed 2 payments. Just in case anything happens to you. I can't even imagine being halfway through and then having to start all over. Plus the financial ding of starting over the you've already re-payed half.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 11:09am
Addressing the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program. After examining the details of this program, and there are many, it appears that they are encouraging the very thing debt counsellors advise against, that is making minimum payments on large monthly balances. Some of these loans carry 6.8% interest. A frugal man like you should abhore this, I would think.
I understand the carrot but I think they are being very crafty making it appear you are going to have all this fore giveness when in reality you are going to maximize your accruing of interest and will not be paying down on the principle.
So, let's say you chose a different route and made a valiant effort to actually pay off the loan in 10 years.......Targeting the highest interest rate loans first. What would the actual cost of freedom be? I say not that much difference. Foregiveness is deceiving, the way they have structured this. I would not like to be bound and controlled by a government I do not trust. You know they could easily make your payments a direct payroll deduction by your employer just like Social Security........and you know how that shapes up for you.
I am not criticizing you. Forgive me if it sounds that way. I am embarrassed for my own government.
The thing is that you must get on the Income-based Repyment Plan in order to be eligible for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness plan. I could pay them more monthly, but why? Either way if I pay the payments for ten years the remainder of my loan gets forgiven.
So if I pay my current $350 a month for ten years or I feel charitable and pay and extra $100 for a total of $450 then I still get forgiveness just the same, except I am out an additional $100 a month. See how it works?
Let me break it down super tiny.
Let's say I owe $122 in student loans. I get on the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program and have to pay, according to my mandated Income-based Repayment Plan, $1 a month for 120 payments over 10 years. I can pay the $1 a month and let interest accrue. After the 120 payments/ten years the remaining $2 plus any interest accrued is forgiven.
So if I decided to pay the $1 a month and -- just to be nice -- paid an extra $1 one month our of the 120 payments then at the end of 120 payments/ten years the remaining $1 plus any interest gets forgiven.
See how it does not help to pay extra?
I consolidating my loans. I cannot pay high interest ones first.
Let's do a little more math. I owe about $175,000 right now.
My $350 monthly payment multiplied by 120 is $42,000. That is much less than $175,000.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 11:11am
UA, unsolicited advice, my soon to be SIL is in that 10 year repayment program you are in. She got lupus and had to take time off from work but did not handle whatever paperwork she had to with the loan forgiveness program. After 5 yrs in, she had to start all over with the 120 payments. Which seems ridiculous at best, cruel at worst, people get sick. She missed 2 payments. Just in case anything happens to you. I can't even imagine being halfway through and then having to start all over. Plus the financial ding of starting over the you've already re-payed half.
I am aware of this. I try to keep on top of all the issues. But it is not easy. Everything in life requires taking chances.
I have my payment auto-deducted from my account and I check on it a few times a month to make sure things are going smooth.
You can be 13 days late on a payment and still stay in the program.
Who knows? I could get screwed over. No way to tell at this point. I know the system is rigged against me, but it is the best rigged system we've got.
I am aware of this. I try to keep on top of all the issues. But it is not easy. Everything in life requires taking chances.
I have my payment auto-deducted from my account and I check on it a few times a month to make sure things are going smooth.
You can be 13 days late on a payment and still stay in the program.
Who knows? I could get screwed over. No way to tell at this point. I know the system is rigged against me, but it is the best rigged system we've got.
How is it rigged against you? You essentially have a loan, similar to a mortgage, and are only required to pay back approximately 25% of the loan over a ten year period. It sound to me like you (and others) have rigged the system. I'd love terms like that.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 11:56am
How is it rigged against you? You essentially have a loan, similar to a mortgage, and are only required to pay back approximately 25% of the loan over a ten year period. It sound to me like you (and others) have rigged the system. I'd love terms like that.
Well, if all works out then maybe the rigging is TBD, but I don't trust the govt to follow through. They have all these little traps and pitfalls that make you have to go back and start over.
But, as a left-wing ideologue to a right-wing ideologue, let me say: I should not have had to pay for college or graduate school. That should have been paid for with tax money collected from rich people.
iris lilies
1-13-16, 12:01pm
Well, if all works out then maybe the rigging is TBD, but I don't trust the govt to follow through. They have all these little traps and pitfalls that make you have to go back and start over.
But, as a left-wing ideologue to a right-wing ideologue, let me say: I should not have had to pay for college or graduate school. That should have been paid for with tax money collected from rich people.
How many degrees of yours should we have to pay for? For the sake of argument, give me a number.
And I can assure you that the taxpayers DO pick up a fair amount of your support at tax supported institutions.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 12:09pm
How many degrees of yours should we have to pay for? For the sake of argument, give me a number.
And I can assure you that the taxpayers DO pick up a fair amount of your support at tax supported institutions.
I doubt you're rich. So I'd say you'd pay for none of it.
But, as a left-wing ideologue to a right-wing ideologue, let me say: I should not have had to pay for college or graduate school. That should have been paid for with tax money collected from rich people.
Ahh, I see. I sometimes forget that many folks feel they deserve to benefit from the efforts of others. My bad!
Ultralight
1-13-16, 12:42pm
Ahh, I see. I sometimes forget that many folks feel they deserve to benefit from the efforts of others. My bad!
Rich people get plenty off of working people, plenty.
But this is an ideological discussion. I doubt we'll come to an agreement. How about a disagreement? haha
We could leave it at that?
Bae, did you earn it or inherit it or both?
I earned it by creating new things of value to our civilization.
I'd be pretty happy if my student loans were forgiven. They are about $175k right now.
You borrowed this money voluntarily?
Ultralight
1-13-16, 12:57pm
You borrowed this money voluntarily?
More or less.
Is this where you lecture me? lol
Or is this where you would have lectured me but since I called it you'll attempt some callous quip about my naivete or some such?
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-16, 1:04pm
But, as a left-wing ideologue to a right-wing ideologue, let me say: I should not have had to pay for college or graduate school. That should have been paid for with tax money collected from rich people.
possibly for the bachelors, I think state schools are a pretty good solution (yes they are ok though way overcrowded in this state). And yes I think I as a state taxpayer do pay a fair amount for this (maybe not as much as for prisons though). But honestly the solution of paying for endless education doesn't work even in Europe really, because how could it if there aren't enough jobs. You just have a bunch of under/un-employed people with graduate degrees, which you often do have quite a lot of there.
What is needed is good paying jobs for everyone or else a way to share existing jobs so there are enough or another way to share wealth without jobs.
My future is certainly in bad shape financially. I will probably never be able to retire (though I hope to only work part-time in my old age, if I live that long), but that is not just because of my student loans. That is also because of other bad choices I made, various government policies, corporate interests, and overall long-term economic decline of the USA. But my student loans are obviously a big problem amidst all these others.
right, but I figure one will be forced out of the workplace sooner or latter ready or not, and that's the reality, and one will find a way to make do. Not many people really want to hire gramps and granny. But yea especially if you stop buying the delusion that the stock market is going to pay off with 8% or 6% or even 4% returns, and think more about 2% interest rates forever instead, if you know there won't be pensions, that healthcare will be unaffordable at least until Medicare kicks in (and no employer is going to pay healthcare for their retired employees except maybe the government) etc.
I have reached the happy point where my little collection of investments, pensions and entitlements has a reasonable if not absolutely certain chance of funding my family's basic needs plus a reasonable level of frivolity until we reach entropic maximization. However, I'm loathe to say I've reached "the number" due to three factors.
While I never occurred any education debt due to a combination of summer jobs and military service, I need to determine how much I need/want to set aside for my kid's education. I certainly wouldn't want to see her in UA's situation, but I would also think she might benefit from having some skin in the game.
Health care is a big question mark. I'm struggling with determining how much of my future income and what size of a reserve I need to commit for premiums and out-of-pocket expenses.
I'm also pondering how best to mitigate public policy risks going forward. How much, if any, Social Security or Medicare benefits to plan for. Whether I get classed among "the rich" for purposes of compassionate income or wealth redistribution. Whether the technocracy decides to inflate away part of the national debt or impose new "you didn't build that" burdens on some of the firms I'm invested in.
I'll grant you there are worse concerns to have than these, but they do make estimating a definitive number difficult. I'm not sure how to deal with them beyond making semi-educated guesses, staying flexible and generally muddling through.
UL, sometimes you really do surprise me. Most countries do not have such a loan forgiveness program on post-secondary education but not only do you have the advantage of it but seemingly expect that as an entitlement. Why?
I second IL's question - how many degrees are you entitled to borrow towards? I would add the question - when does your responsibility for borrowing kick in? Before you apply to the institution? Before you decide to attend? Before you spend a cent? Before you decide how it will be paid off?
FWIW, I borrowed $500 when it was first offered decades ago in Canada and it was the first debt I cleared. To reduce my debt, I literally lived on a bowl of oatmeal in the morning and a hotdog and bun in the pm until I lost so much weight that the director of the program called my in to find out what was happening in my life. We found a solution that let me use a closet in a residence with meals with the funding that I had. All the other residents were aware that I was very poor - some were kind and some were not but I got my education which was my priority. That is why your assumption is so mind-boggling to me.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 1:18pm
UL, sometimes you really do surprise me. Most countries do not have such a loan forgiveness program on post-secondary education but not only do you have the advantage of it but seemingly expect that as an entitlement. Why?
I second IL's question - how many degrees are you entitled to borrow towards? I would add the question - when does your responsibility for borrowing kick in? Before you apply to the institution? Before you decide to attend? Before you spend a cent? Before you decide how it will be paid off?
FWIW, I borrowed $500 when it was first offered decades ago in Canada and it was the first debt I cleared. To reduce my debt, I literally lived on a bowl of oatmeal in the morning and a hotdog and bun in the pm until I lost so much weight that the director of the program called my in to find out what was happening in my life. We found a solution that let me use a closet in a residence with meals with the funding that I had. All the other residents were aware that I was very poor - some were kind and some were not but I got my education which was my priority. That is why your assumption is so mind-boggling to me.
I don't expect it. LOL
Rich people and the corporations they own/direct would never allow the govt to pay for the citizenry's education on their taxes.
I'd say that a person should be able to get a bachelor's, a master's, and a doctoral degree of some kind. That'd be fair.
iris lilies
1-13-16, 1:29pm
I don't expect it. LOL
Rich people and the corporations they own/direct would never allow the govt to pay for the citizenry's education on their taxes.
I'd say that a person should be able to get a bachelor's, a master's, and a doctoral degree of some kind. That'd be fair.
Please add dispensation for those who "love to learn" and are by nature perpetual students. These people could get a social disability entitlement pass that allows them to gather Ph.d s all of their lives. Yeah, I want to pay for that. Not.
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-16, 1:31pm
Anyone who gets a PhD pretty much is a perpetual student already, considering how long it takes.
If I wanted people to have more ability to learn I'd just reduce the work week, then they can learn, or play, or help others with volunteering or just helping out family, or sit dumbstruck in front of the t.v. wasting their existence :), or whatever suits their fancy.
Some jobs need a lot of education, but the endless paper chase of more and more education for fewer and fewer jobs, most of which don't really require it, is not working out well ....
Ultralight
1-13-16, 1:34pm
Please add dispensation for those who "love to learn" and are by nature perpetual students. These people could get a social disability entitlement pass that allows them to gather Ph.d s all of their lives. Yeah, I want to pay for that. Not.
When I get my magic wand I will consider your humble request. ;)
More or less.
Is this where you lecture me? lol
Or is this where you would have lectured me but since I called it you'll attempt some callous quip about my naivete or some such?
Nope. I wasn't going to lecture at all, you seem to do enough of that inside your own head. I was just curious if anyone had held a gun to your head and forced you to borrow this money. Apparently not - you entered into the contract voluntarily, to purchase education that you thought was of value to you.
Homo economicus risen.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 1:35pm
Anyone who gets a PhD pretty much is a perpetual student already. If I wanted people to have more ability to learn I'd just reduce the work week, then they can learn, or play, or help others, or sit dumbstruck in front of the t.v. or whatever suits their fancy.
Not really, many become scholars and/or researchers. Others end up using their high levels of knowledge in professions of various types.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 1:36pm
Nope. I wasn't going to lecture at all, you seem to do enough of that inside your own head. I was just curious if anyone had held a gun to your head and forced you to borrow this money. Apparently not - you entered into the contract voluntarily, to purchase education that you thought was of value to you.
Homo economicus risen.
You know what I like about you, bae?
You're humble.
Also: You did as I predicted.
Which is another thing I like about you: You're predictable. ;)
Also: You did as I predicted.
It must be wonderful for you to have these conversations with yourself. Must be all that educamication, the life of the mind and such.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 1:40pm
It must be wonderful for you to have these conversations with yourself. Must be all that educamication, the life of the mind and such.
No need to get bent out of shape, buckaroo.
Remember, this ain't my first rodeo.
I'd say that a person should be able to get a bachelor's, a master's, and a doctoral degree of some kind. That'd be fair.
Would it be fair for the taxpayers to demand a return on their investment? Fund some degrees but not others? If we need more electrical engineers than English majors, for instance?
Or could they hedge their bet by saying we will fund any course of study you want, but only after you produce evidence you are qualified in some sort of skilled trade like plumbing or truck driving?
Ultralight
1-13-16, 1:49pm
Would it be fair for the taxpayers to demand a return on their investment? Fund some degrees but not others? If we need more electrical engineers than English majors, for instance?
No.
Vermin Supreme in his 2016 campaign for President is promising free ponies for all.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 1:55pm
Vermin Supreme in his 2016 campaign for President is promising free ponies for all.
I have no idea who or what this refers to.
Dh and I grew up very poor and we've had to provide for ourselves - well, ok, we did get free lunches in school. Which were greatly appreciated. But my personal experience has been that a college education that requires sacrifice from the individual is more meaningful and more valuable to said individual.
Dh paid for his with his GI Bill money, I paid for mine by working full-time for 20 years before being able to do it full-time without having to work. Both of us went to state schools and incurred zero debt. It boggles my mind that people incur so much student loan debt. How does this happen? $175K??? Good lord, where did you go to school? And I would hope that with such an expensive degree would come a high-paying job that would allow you to quickly wipe out that debt.
Alas, I have also personally seen many young people who blithely go about getting higher degrees in fields that offer bleak employment prospects... despite being advised against it. I don't know if it's blinders, lack of insight/foresight, or what, but it happens all the time.
Anywho, my opinion is that college education should be available to everyone who wants it, but that everyone should have a personal stake in the education to make it meaningful and valuable. I believe financial aid would be more valuable if students were required to pay a percentage themselves once they started working. And student loans should only be available in degrees that actually offer paying jobs that would allow students to pay off those loans.
Vermin Supreme in his 2016 campaign for President is promising free ponies for all.
Is that the guy who wears a boot on his head?
You know what I like about you, bae?
You're humble.
Also: You did as I predicted.
Which is another thing I like about you: You're predictable. ;)
UL, most people here are predictible, we'v all been here too long.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 3:17pm
UL, most people here are predictible, we'v all been here too long.
My eventual fate!
Williamsmith
1-13-16, 3:26pm
Let me approach this from a different perspective.........and what about your personal pride and independence? What is that worth? Do you think it is the governments good will that makes this so called forgiveness available? Or maybe do you think a certain party would like your vote, your interest money and your dedication because you are owned by them.
For now, you are of some use to them because you are young and have many years to contribute interest money to the cause. And when you are forgiven, whatever it is that money is worth ten years from now.......and it will be worth much less than it is now, what strings will be attached and what will be expected of you or what new deal will be offered to you. Will you enter into all contracts expecting not to have to fulfill the terms?
But my personal experience has been that a college education that requires sacrifice from the individual is more meaningful and more valuable to said individual.
It's interesting that you should say that. Since my daughter was born, my wife and I have been discussing how we should handle her education. My parents couldn't afford to help me, and my opening position was that we should pay everything if we could afford to at the time. My wife, whose parents paid for her education, insisted that our daughter should be responsible for just the reason you give. She insists she would have been more focused if she was paying for at least some of it. Over the years, we have gradually come to a sort of compromise position in the middle.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 3:30pm
Let me approach this from a different perspective.........and what about your personal pride and independence? What is that worth? Do you think it is the governments good will that makes this so called forgiveness available? Or maybe do you think a certain party would like your vote, your interest money and your dedication because you are owned by them.
For now, you are of some use to them because you are young and have many years to contribute interest money to the cause. And when you are forgiven, whatever it is that money is worth ten years from now.......and it will be worth much less than it is now, what strings will be attached and what will be expected of you or what new deal will be offered to you. Will you enter into all contracts expecting not to have to fulfill the terms?
I work for a living. I can't have much pride or independence -- can't afford it!
I am certain the Dems want me to vote for them, and Bernie looks enticing. But I am done with voting. Waste of time.
freshstart
1-13-16, 3:31pm
from what I can see, these gov't jobs that provide loan forgiveness, are jobs the person with the degree likely find undesirable and the pay not commensurate with their skills. So they are not partying on the gov't's dime, they are doing work that needs to be done, doing it inexpensively and getting help in return. My brother's fiancee is a lawyer, the job she took for loan forgiveness pays less in Boston than I made as a measly hospice nurse in upstate NY. Lawyers who don't need loan forgiveness are not going to do these jobs. And I don't want to live in a country where you only get a hand if your job will be high-paying. Plenty of jobs are needed that will never be high paying, say social work. Do you want to live in a country with a SW shortage because no one becomes one because there is no hope of getting loans or loan forgiveness? Or a country that won't help students in the Arts or English majors? We're already a cultural wasteland, it seems to me. Bring on the people who can change this and give them the same help as an engineer. And they have to do the sh** jobs no one else wants for 10 yrs, too.
I do agree there comes a point when multiple degree holders or PhD candidates get cut off. You got your Bachelor's, got your Master's, you're done, now take the crap job if you want help.
It's interesting that you should say that. Since my daughter was born, my wife and I have been discussing how we should handle her education. My parents couldn't afford to help me, and my opening position was that we should pay everything if we could afford to at the time. My wife, whose parents paid for her education, insisted that our daughter should be responsible for just the reason you give. She insists she would have been more focused if she was paying for at least some of it. Over the years, we have gradually come to a sort of compromise position in the middle.
I think the middle position is wise.
In my Early years of college my parents paid for all, and I was a shitty student. Then I dropped out.
Later, I paid for most of my undergraduate degree and studied hard and got good grades, partly because I was paying the tuition bill, and partly because I was going on to graduate school and needed decent grades to get it.
freshstart
1-13-16, 3:34pm
I am certain the Dems want me to vote for them, and Bernie looks enticing. But I am done with voting. Waste of time.
someday I will convince you your vote matters, but come on, I'm not getting any younger!
Ultralight
1-13-16, 3:34pm
from what I can see, these gov't jobs that provide loan forgiveness, are jobs the person with the degree likely find undesirable and the pay not commensurate with their skills. So they are not partying on the gov't's dime, they are doing work that needs to be done, doing it inexpensively and getting help in return.
The vast majority of the time this is exactly spot-on!
Ultralight
1-13-16, 3:35pm
someday I will convince you your vote matters, but come on, I'm not getting any younger!
I have voted enough already to know it doesn't matter. ;)
Do you want to live in a country with a SW shortage because no one becomes one because there is no hope of getting loans or loan forgiveness? Or a country that won't help students in the Arts or English majors? We're already a cultural wasteland, it seems to me. Bring on the people who can change this and give them the same help as an engineer. And they have to do the sh** jobs no one else wants for 10 yrs, too.
.
I live in the Silicon Valley where most jobs are in STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) and this is what I saw during orientation at the state school which serves as the primary (affordable) educational institution for the region: the social sciences sections were chock-full of young students entering the programs, with long lines; the STEM sections had a handful of students each.
In this region, many young people with PhD's in Social Work, Psychology, Sociology are competing for the few jobs in these fields; students with "just" a Masters are lucky if they get a part time job without benefits in areas within a 50 mile commute distance. Conversely, the STEM jobs are being filled by people from overseas with work visas because employers cannot find local talent.
I think many young people get into the social sciences, not because they are passionate about the field, but because it's easy. And that can be a huge mistake.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 3:56pm
My experience in the liberal arts and social sciences is that people get into them mostly because they are interested. And that stuff is really interesting! I was really into studying literature, the Cold War era, and documentary films.
Was it easy? For me it mostly was -- but only at first and because I am inclined that way.
Some folks are talented at STEM. Some folks are talented at painting or sociology or writing fiction.
STEM jobs are mostly what I call "how jobs."
The social sciences and the liberal arts are what I call "why jobs."
That is just one man's opinion.
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-16, 3:57pm
I live in the Silicon Valley where most jobs are in STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) and this is what I saw during orientation at the state school which serves as the primary (affordable) educational institution for the region: the social sciences sections were chock-full of young students entering the programs, with long lines; the STEM sections had a handful of students each.
yes well then they'll get the STEM degree and lose out to increasing H1Bs maybe. I think it's kinda stupid to pursue some STEM paths, when H1Bs can be had so much cheaper and are so much more indentured to an employer (they often can't leave their employer). And they keep increasing the number of H1Bs as well. But if it's your passion, then go for it.
Such fields also have a pretty shoddy record of 1) keeping women involved in it (who get into STEM - so those who initially pursue it) 2) of keeping older people who started out in it (ageism), etc.
Conversely, the STEM jobs are being filled by people from overseas with work visas because employers cannot find local talent.
they don't want to pay for local talent and they like that H1Bs have less options. While some may have sincerely tried to hire citizens, we all know that they aren't all making a sincere try and some just pretend to while pursuing H1Bs.
My company literally has jobs that are not real jobs (I have been told so) posted on the company website. You submit a resume and I'm told it doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't end up in anyone's inbox. H1B chicanery I suspect.
I think many young people get into the social sciences, not because they are passionate about the field, but because it's easy. And that can be a huge mistake.
why wouldn't they be passionate about the field? That stuff is interesting. But a lot of people will try to pursue something more practical to pay the rent of course. The problem is it's hard to tell what will even be practical with insourcing, outsourcing, and automation.
It's interesting that you should say that. Since my daughter was born, my wife and I have been discussing how we should handle her education. My parents couldn't afford to help me, and my opening position was that we should pay everything if we could afford to at the time. My wife, whose parents paid for her education, insisted that our daughter should be responsible for just the reason you give. She insists she would have been more focused if she was paying for at least some of it. Over the years, we have gradually come to a sort of compromise position in the middle.
I think a compromise is an excellent way to go. Not having to work full-time while going to school, both dh and I got a chance to explore and take classes just because they were interesting, not worrying about the fact that they didn't apply to our major. And I think having that chance to do a fun/interesting minor (philosophy) or AA (psychology) helped us focus on a major that made sense as a career. We have felt very satisfied and fulfilled with our educational experience, and proud of our accomplishment. If you can provide that for your daughter, she is very lucky!
Ultralight
1-13-16, 4:05pm
Something else, and this is me totally being blunt here.
Not everyone is smart in the same way. I can't do math. Science eludes me.
But cultural studies -- now that I can get down with! The arts -- oh, yeah!
I think it is kind of cruel to expect someone whose true love is watercolors painting to become a chemical engineer or a nurse practitioner.
I also think it is foolhardy to assume that everyone has the aptitude to do STEM work.
One more thing: When I imagine a world of everyone doing STEM work I get the blues. And even the sci-tech worshipers who LOOOOOOOOVE STEM stuff would get the blues too in their artless, cultural wasteland of gadgets, skyscrapers, and biolabs.
But they'd have no way to express that blues; they would not even be able to listen to someone else express that blues for them.
yes well then they'll get the STEM degree and lose out to increasing H1Bs maybe. I think it's kinda stupid to pursue some STEM paths, when H1Bs can be had so much cheaper and are so much more indentured to an employer (they often can't leave their employer). And they keep increasing the number of H1Bs as well. But if it's your passion, then go for it.
Such fields also have a pretty shoddy record of 1) keeping women involved in it (who get into STEM - so those who initially pursue it) 2) of keeping older people who started out in it (ageism), etc.
they don't want to pay for local talent and they like that H1Bs have less options. While some may have sincerely tried to hire citizens we all know that they aren't all making a sincere try and some just pretend to while pursuing H1Bs.
why wouldn't they be passionate about the field? That stuff is interesting. But a lot of people will try to pursue something more practical to pay the rent of course. The problem is it's hard to tell what will even be practical with insourcing, outsourcing, and automation.
From personal experience I can say that students graduating with STEM degrees (as well as finance, accounting, business, nursing, etc) in this area often have good jobs waiting for them before they even finish school. There's lots of internship opportunities and heavy recruitment from employers. I have not seen it be the case that visa holders are favored over local talent. I have seen it be the case that employers cannot fill jobs locally. Most of these jobs pay very well and have excellent benefits; thus, a smart person can save substantial amounts of money and retire early and even go on to other careers later. Again, that is my personal experience and what I have seen firsthand. Also, I have not seen STEM employers discriminate against women. I know a number of women who have been in the STEM fields for many years. However, I will say that I have seen very few women in college enter into the STEM fields. The lack of women in STEM in the workplace is a result of the lack of women in STEM in education.
My experience in the liberal arts and social sciences is that people get into them mostly because they are interested. And that stuff is really interesting!
Of course the social sciences and liberal arts are fun and interesting! So are most hobbies. And all of them can be pursued and enjoyed without making it a career decision that leaves you as a middle aged person with $175K in student loan debt, living with your sister and her family.
My interest in this topic is because of how it affects minorities and women who are not properly informed on how the choices they make in this are will affect them the rest of their lives. The lack of Hispanics, African-Americans, and women in STEM is a real issue, with real financial consequences. And the issue is exacerbated by the struggles that these groups have in creating a financially viable life for themselves and their children. I'm not attacking your life choices, UA, I'm saying that many people fall into this trap without knowing it and then can't get themselves out of it, no matter how much they try. That's the real tragedy.
freshstart
1-13-16, 4:23pm
Something else, and this is me totally being blunt here.
Not everyone is smart in the same way. I can't do math. Science eludes me.
But cultural studies -- now that I can get down with! The arts -- oh, yeah!
I think it is kind of cruel to expect someone whose true love is watercolors painting to become a chemical engineer or a nurse practitioner.
I also think it is foolhardy to assume that everyone has the aptitude to do STEM work.
One more thing: When I imagine a world of everyone doing STEM work I get the blues. And even the sci-tech worshipers who LOOOOOOOOVE STEM stuff would get the blues too in their artless, cultural wasteland of gadgets, skyscrapers, and biolabs.
.
I'm down with this.
And as for the social sciences being "easy", that may appear so to people in STEM. But go ask a Hospice social worker if her job is easy or one working in CPS. Just as STEM careers are not for everyone, neither are the social sciences. A social worker doing her job fully, rarely has it easy and that implication is insulting. It would have to be an incredibly helpful to humanity STEM job that would make me say we need more STEMS and fewer social workers. Ever been with one when a child is taken out of the home? Or when they are part of the Mobile Crisis Team that enters the home of a violent paranoid schizophrenic? The difficulty of STEM pales in comparison.
So it's really not fair to call either more difficult than the other.
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-16, 4:27pm
I think many young people get into the social sciences, not because they are passionate about the field, but because it's easy. And that can be a huge mistake.
I'm sure some do, as we all know the types of people who go to the party school etc., although it's hard to imagine that as a philosophy of life as it's just so alien to me.
OTOH if they are working full time and decide to take an easy major because they don't have energy to do much else after a full day at work, who can blame them? They are probably making a very rational calculation (as rational as any STEM major could make) that they need to hold down a real job to survive, but pursuing *a* degree even in basket weaving is better than not having one. And it's probably true (provided it isn't paid for with massive debt).
Of course the usual easy degree that seems more practical, and that let's face it is pretty easy, and doesn't require the sharpest bulb in the shed is: business administration.
A lot of k-12 schools also didn't provide a good education at all so they aren't necessarily prepared for a major in physics. They don't have the interest because they don't have the exposure. To blame them at that point seems absurd. So they went to horrible K-12 schools. And some given every conceivable advantage will never have aptitude for certain things. Even simple stuff, writing a simple program, some people just don't have the mindset for, which always amazes me, but it seems to be true.
freshstart
1-13-16, 4:30pm
My interest in this topic is because of how it affects minorities and women who are not properly informed on how the choices they make in this are will affect them the rest of their lives. The lack of Hispanics, African-Americans, and women in STEM is a real issue, with real financial consequences. And the issue is exacerbated by the struggles that these groups have in creating a financially viable life for themselves and their children. I'm not attacking your life choices, UA, I'm saying that many people fall into this trap without knowing it and then can't get themselves out of it, no matter how much they try. That's the real tragedy.
I also agree with this opinion. And somehow I can rationalize them both though seemingly opposing arguments. And that's probably because my brain is all messed up. It would've been much easier to interact with you people before I lost all those IQ points, really I could make salient points, sorry!
Ultralight
1-13-16, 4:31pm
Of course the social sciences and liberal arts are fun and interesting! So are most hobbies. And all of them can be pursued and enjoyed without making it a career decision that leaves you as a middle aged person with $175K in student loan debt, living with your sister and her family.
Obviously this is a little jab -- more than one! lol
Again -- I am not bright enough in STEM to do STEM work. This is the case for many people. Just like someone else (not saying you ;)) is not bright enough to understand the true value of social sciences and the liberal arts.
And lemme zing you right here: I got my first job out of school 2 months before I graduated. A job was waiting for me. I designed my own major in undergrad. As a grad I studied American Culture and Library Studies. And I got a job! And I left it because I got another job. Whoa! lol
You act like I am destitute or something! lol
My interest in this topic is because of how it affects minorities and women who are not properly informed on how the choices they make in this are will affect them the rest of their lives. The lack of Hispanics, African-Americans, and women in STEM is a real issue, with real financial consequences. And the issue is exacerbated by the struggles that these groups have in creating a financially viable life for themselves and their children. I'm not attacking your life choices, UA, I'm saying that many people fall into this trap without knowing it and then can't get themselves out of it, no matter how much they try. That's the real tragedy.
Bold statement: I don't think STEM makes people happy or joyful. I think the arts and philosophy do that -- especially when applied and accessible.
I'm down with this.
And as for the social sciences being "easy", that may appear so to people in STEM. But go ask a Hospice social worker if her job is easy or one working in CPS. Just as STEM careers are not for everyone, neither are the social sciences. A social worker doing her job fully, rarely has it easy and that implication is insulting. It would have to be an incredibly helpful to humanity STEM job that would make me say we need more STEMS and fewer social workers. Ever been with one when a child is taken out of the home? Or when they are part of the Mobile Crisis Team that enters the home of a violent paranoid schizophrenic? The difficulty of STEM pales in comparison.
So it's really not fair to call either more difficult than the other.
I didn't make myself clear on that point. What I mean is that the academic path for these fields is easier. Not that the jobs themselves are. On the contrary, I think that social science jobs like social work, hospice, etc, are much, much more difficult both in terms of physical and emotional toll. And, they don't pay enough. That is why when I see a young person, from a poor immigrant background with parents working janitorial jobs to get her through school, choosing social work because the classes are easy for her, it makes me want to weep. I don't think colleges do a proper job of providing students with clear information on the different job prospects for the different careers.
Again, I'm talking here about people who fall into these fields because the path is easy, not because they are passionate about it and go into them fully aware of what the choice means. This is largely because I've been in the college classrooms so recently and have seen so much of this. And I feel sad, because I can see how some of these choices will play out for them.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 4:36pm
I didn't make myself clear on that point. What I mean is that the academic path for these fields is easier. Not that the jobs themselves are. On the contrary, I think that social science jobs like social work, hospice, etc, are much, much more difficult both in terms of physical and emotional toll. And, they don't pay enough. That is why when I see a young person, from a poor immigrant background with parents working janitorial jobs to get her through school, choosing social work because the classes are easy for her, it makes me want to weep. I don't think colleges do a proper job of providing students with clear information on the different job prospects for the different careers.
Again, I'm talking here about people who fall into these fields because the path is easy, not because they are passionate about it and go into them fully aware of what the choice means. This is largely because I've been in the college classrooms so recently and have seen so much of this. And I feel sad, because I can see how some of these choices will play out for them.
I have seen STEM-oriented students struggle in liberal arts classes as bad as I did in math class. I have seen STEM-oriented students just flounder in an art class.
Just because one person can do STEM does not mean STEM are universally learn-able to everyone.
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-16, 4:37pm
Also, I have not seen STEM employers discriminate against women. I know a number of women who have been in the STEM fields for many years. However, I will say that I have seen very few women in college enter into the STEM fields. The lack of women in STEM in the workplace is a result of the lack of women in STEM in education.
it may not be the case as there seems to be some controversy, but there seems to be some data that women do drop out of STEM more than men, and that the problem isn't entirely women not pursuing STEM education:
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/11/3459273/women-black-people-leave-stem/
http://www.fastcompany.com/3037075/strong-female-lead/why-are-women-are-leaving-science-engineering-tech-jobs
http://www.npr.org/2012/07/12/156664337/stereotype-threat-why-women-quit-science-jobs
Obviously this is a little jab -- more than one! lol
Again -- I am not bright enough in STEM to do STEM work. This is the case for many people. Just like someone else (not saying you ;)) is not bright enough to understand the true value of social sciences and the liberal arts.
And lemme zing you right here: I got my first job out of school 2 months before I graduated. A job was waiting for me. I designed my own major in undergrad. As a grad I studied American Culture and Library Studies. And I got a job! And I left it because I got another job. Whoa! lol
You act like I am destitute or something! lol
Bold statement: I don't think STEM makes people happy or joyful. I think the arts and philosophy do that -- especially when applied and accessible.
Then why do you still have $175K in student debt? Why haven't you paid it off? And why are you complaining about it?
Also, I think you're getting stuck in the whole STEM thing - there are many jobs that pay well besides STEM. I used STEM because that is really hot where I live and I'm surprised at how few people enter into the majors. The why of that is a whole other discussion and one which I don't think you are interested in, so I won't bother. And I agree that arts and philosophy make many people happy and joyous. Although, being able to pay the rent, provide food for your children, pay your bills on time, not worry about how you're going to make it through the month before your next paycheck ... those things also make many people happy and joyous. The only difference is that art and philosophy can be enjoyed for free.
Ok, now I have to go and be productive with my day. Thanks for the intellectual exercise!
freshstart
1-13-16, 4:47pm
I didn't make myself clear on that point. What I mean is that the academic path for these fields is easier. Not that the jobs themselves are. On the contrary, I think that social science jobs like social work, hospice, etc, are much, much more difficult both in terms of physical and emotional toll. And, they don't pay enough. That is why when I see a young person, from a poor immigrant background with parents working janitorial jobs to get her through school, choosing social work because the classes are easy for her, it makes me want to weep. I don't think colleges do a proper job of providing students with clear information on the different job prospects for the different careers.
Again, I'm talking here about people who fall into these fields because the path is easy, not because they are passionate about it and go into them fully aware of what the choice means. This is largely because I've been in the college classrooms so recently and have seen so much of this. And I feel sad, because I can see how some of these choices will play out for them.
gotcha, don't totally agree with the constant refrain of "easy" but I hear you
ApatheticNoMore
1-13-16, 4:49pm
That is why when I see a young person, from a poor immigrant background with parents working janitorial jobs to get her through school, choosing social work because the classes are easy for her, it makes me want to weep.
but quite honestly the janitors kid probably doesn't have the educational background from K-12 to pursue a physics degree. That ship has probably sailed by then, period. To pretend that many doors haven't already closed by then isn't realistic.
They probably went to mediocre to very poor schools (because parents couldn't afford private school or a house in a good school district) and so aren't educationally prepared to be the next Einstein without spending years and years taking remedial courses and is *that* a wise financial choice? So weep for the unfairness in K-12 education and life as such, not for the college students.
But what about something like accounting or something? Yea the educational preparation for that isn't as intense as say physics, it might be a viable choice (like I said a business degree - especially just a general one - is the easy degree for people who want to do something practical). But even taking up trade like plumbing might be a good choice as well.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 4:55pm
but quite honestly the janitors kid probably doesn't have the educational background from K-12 to pursue a physics degree. That ship has probably sailed by then, period. To pretend that many doors haven't already closed by then isn't realistic.
They probably went to mediocre to very poor schools (because parents couldn't afford private school or a house in a good school district) and so aren't educationally prepared to be the next Einstein without spending years and years taking remedial courses and is that a wise financial choice?
Excellent points here.
One more thing: When I imagine a world of everyone doing STEM work I get the blues. And even the sci-tech worshipers who LOOOOOOOOVE STEM stuff would get the blues too in their artless, cultural wasteland of gadgets, skyscrapers, and biolabs.
But they'd have no way to express that blues; they would not even be able to listen to someone else express that blues for them.
Such Eloi vs. Morloch binary thinking. You'd think with $175k+ in education you'd know better...
Some of the best musicians, actors, and artists I know also have STEM degrees, and integrate culture into their lives.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 5:06pm
Such Eloi vs. Morloch binary thinking. You'd think with $175k+ in education you'd know better...
Some of the best musicians, actors, and artists I know also have STEM degrees, and integrate culture into their lives.
I was being illustrative, not exact. It is a liberal arts thing. You wouldn't get it.
Something else, and this is me totally being blunt here.
Not everyone is smart in the same way. I can't do math. Science eludes me.
But cultural studies -- now that I can get down with! The arts -- oh, yeah!
I think it is kind of cruel to expect someone whose true love is watercolors painting to become a chemical engineer or a nurse practitioner.
I also think it is foolhardy to assume that everyone has the aptitude to do STEM work.
One more thing: When I imagine a world of everyone doing STEM work I get the blues. And even the sci-tech worshipers who LOOOOOOOOVE STEM stuff would get the blues too in their artless, cultural wasteland of gadgets, skyscrapers, and biolabs.
But they'd have no way to express that blues; they would not even be able to listen to someone else express that blues for them.
I don't entirely disagree with you. Different people have different interests and capabilities. Not everyone, for instance, is equipped to appreciate the subtle beauty of double entry bookkeeping.
But absent an independent income, I believe we have an obligation to support ourselves and our families that often (perhaps usually) overrides a life of glorious self-actualization. We each have to strike the best balance we can between what we must do and what we'd like to do. That can be a cruel bargain, as life can be cruel.
For myself, i went for the training and credentials to earn a decent living. I've just had to resign myself to enjoying Philip Larkin or Coleman Hawkins or Boethius on my own time at my own expense. I really don't need a credential for that, and I can't justify asking someone else to pay for it.
frugal-one
1-13-16, 5:08pm
This thread is WAY off track! Time to start a new one to dispute each other.
I was being illustrative, not exact. It is a liberal arts thing. You wouldn't get it.
As an experimental physicist, and a statistician, I know quite well that exactness is not even possible in our universe. I could show you the math, it's very artistic and soul-inspiring.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 5:26pm
As an experimental physicist, and a statistician, I know quite well that exactness is not even possible in our universe. I could show you the math, it's very artistic and soul-inspiring.
It may well inspire art but that doesn't make it art.
It may well inspire art but that doesn't make it art.
What is "art"?
Ultralight
1-13-16, 5:27pm
As an experimental physicist, and a statistician, I know quite well that exactness is not even possible in our universe. I could show you the math, it's very artistic and soul-inspiring.
But take comfort in this, amigo. You are way smarter than me in virtually all realms.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 5:27pm
What is "art"?
What isn't art?
I had a STEM job before the term was coined. It didn't require a costly degree or any degree at all. I was, unfortunately, a liberal arts major. If I had it to do over again, I probably would have minored in one of the arts and majored in something more challenging. I'm wiser now.
I had a STEM job before the term was coined. It didn't require a costly degree or any degree at all. I was, unfortunately, a liberal arts major. If I had it to do over again, I probably would have minored in one of the arts and majored in something more challenging. I'm wiser now.
I remember those dark days before spreadsheets when I had to rely on my TI-59 and writing my own BASIC code. It was the era of the self-taught programmer. Some people I knew still used slide rules.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 6:15pm
I miss the days when phones hung on the wall and computers were just for nerds.
I remember those dark days before spreadsheets when I had to rely on my TI-59 and writing my own BASIC code. It was the era of the self-taught programmer.
My co-workers tried to talk me into buying a computer when they were newly available. I was skeptical. They'd come in on Monday having spent all weekend trying to upgrade to a new version of some software or other. (Oh--sounds like fun! :help:) I asked what I could do with one. They said I could balance my checkbook. (And they cost a bloody fortune!) I raised an eyebrow, looked at the amber-on-black screen and told them I'd get one when they had full-color displays. I caved at Windows 95, but I still haven't balanced my checkbook...I definitely have a geek personality though.
I miss the days when phones hung on the wall and computers were just for nerds.
In those days, some people hung nerds on the wall. They got their revenge, though.
My co-workers tried to talk me into buying a computer when they were newly available. I was skeptical. They'd come in on Monday having spent all weekend trying to upgrade to a new version of some software or other. (Oh--sounds like fun! :help:) I asked what I could do with one. They said I could balance my checkbook. (And they cost a bloody fortune!) I raised an eyebrow, looked at the amber-on-black screen and told them I'd get one when they had full-color displays. I caved at Windows 95, but I still haven't balanced my checkbook...I definitely have a geek personality though.
My first PC that I didn't have to share was a Z-100. The Department of Defense had a big contract with Zenith (right call there guys). It didn't have a hard drive, and you were constantly switching big floppies in and out of it. They only issued it to me because the senior officers thought it was demeaning to use a keyboard.
Ultralight
1-13-16, 6:32pm
In those days, some people hung nerds on the wall. They got their revenge, though.
"NERDS!" -- Ogre
Ultralight
1-13-16, 6:34pm
My first PC that I didn't have to share was a Z-100. The Department of Defense had a big contract with Zenith (right call there guys). It didn't have a hard drive, and you were constantly switching big floppies in and out of it. They only issued it to me because the senior officers thought it was demeaning to use a keyboard.
Antiques!
At the media lab down in the University of Alabama (where I went to school) they had a pristine, untouched, unused Commodore 64. It was protected by some super-thick plexiglass. People marveled at it!
I learned to program on this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e8/a0/d6/e8a0d63aca0aa0e5f76e1df5c94342e9.jpg
Ultralight
1-13-16, 9:47pm
I learned to program on this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e8/a0/d6/e8a0d63aca0aa0e5f76e1df5c94342e9.jpg
For business or pleasure?
For business or pleasure?
Explorer Scouts. Control Data Corporation and IBM sponsored us, and gave us access to incredible computing resources and instructors. I wrote a time-shared operating system for that huge hunk of iron there. Made the first half of my computing career off that work too, as the OS was a load-and-go FORTRAN program that bopped the computer's supervisor over the head and took over. Turned it into 4 APL terminals.
Kids of today don't understand that they see what they do because they stand atop the shoulders of midgets.
Williamsmith
1-13-16, 11:06pm
I remember my dad coming home from work one day with a huge grin on his face and a funny looking card in his hand that had these Rectangular holes in it seemingly randomly situated. He said he would no longer be working in the blooming mill sweating and getting dirty around hot steel beams coming out of the blast furnace.
He had gotten him a job in payroll and they were going to train him to run these big IBM computers with magnetic tape and boxes and boxes of these cards that told the computer who worked what shift and how much they got paid. High tech stuff and he'd be on the cutting edge.
I thought he had spent too much time in the bar before coming home. Turned out he wasn't kidding. He took me one day and showed me all these big computers in this room the size of a grocery store. All to meet the payroll of one of the largest steel mills in the country. Maybe he was one of those midgets.
Maybe he was one of those midgets.
/salute!
My operating system was a couple of boxes of punched cards. I found them in the attic when I was cleaning a couple of years ago, my daughter didn't believe me when I told her what they were :-)
Gardenarian
1-14-16, 4:00am
I never felt like I needed much. My parents were well off and unhappy (many houses and cars, big boat, plane, fancy travel, etc.), so getting rich was never a goal for me. They were mean and miserable.
What I sought was, first of all - adventure! After that, good health, a loving, peaceful family life, a place in the community, and a sense that I was contributing to the public good, and with luck, to leave behind some lasting legacy.
My parents were tired of my disability and other health problems and neediness, so I was on my own at 18 - a physical wreck and emotionally ill equipped to take care of myself. After a few crazy years (the movie "Almost Famous" was nostalgic for me) I realized I would need to go to college.
I was able to go to a state school, tuition free. Textbooks cost about 70% less (relatively) than they do today. For $90 per year I got complete student health coverage. I still had rent, transportation, and food to pay for. I was awarded a scholarship to study at Oxford, which remains one of the high points of my life. Between tutoring, teaching summer classes, and waiting tables, I was able to graduate in five years - with enough money to travel to Europe for a couple of months afterwards.
A couple years later I chose to go to (private) library school. I had a little financial aid and borrowed $9,000. I started work as a librarian during my first semester and have not been without a job since. Being a science person helped my career a great deal. (But I'm a liberal arts person too!) I was able to repay the loan in a couple years.
I've made some lucky financial decisions, and for the past 10 years or so have been working for personal reasons more than financial. I have a home, my family, my community..still working on that "lasting legacy" bit.
All through my life a great deal of my time, energy, and money has gone toward improving my health. I've come to terms with it. Sort of.
As Henry James said, "Money's a horrid thing to follow, but a charming thing to meet."
My parents died with the most toys, but they didn't win.
Williamsmith
1-14-16, 4:19am
That's a compelling story with lots of self made success. I do believe that wealth as in possession of many things, can be a roadblock to happiness. The chore of managing and holding on to and constant presiding over can overwhelm your capacity to enjoy life. True wealth escaped me and now retired it's definitely not in the cards but I had an aunt and uncle that role modelled self sufficiency in near poverty and they were the happiest people I have ever known. I am truly sad for your relationship or lack thereof with your parents but I believe they left you the gift of self sufficiency.
freshstart
1-14-16, 5:30am
I never felt like I needed much. My parents were well off and unhappy (many houses and cars, big boat, plane, fancy travel, etc.), so getting rich was never a goal for me. They were mean and miserable.
What I sought was, first of all - adventure! After that, good health, a loving, peaceful family life, a place in the community, and a sense that I was contributing to the public good, and with luck, to leave behind some lasting legacy.
My parents were tired of my disability and other health problems and neediness, so I was on my own at 18 - a physical wreck and emotionally ill equipped to take care of myself. After a few crazy years (the movie "Almost Famous" was nostalgic for me) I realized I would need to go to college.
I was able to go to a state school, tuition free. Textbooks cost about 70% less (relatively) than they do today. For $90 per year I got complete student health coverage. I still had rent, transportation, and food to pay for. I was awarded a scholarship to study at Oxford, which remains one of the high points of my life. Between tutoring, teaching summer classes, and waiting tables, I was able to graduate in five years - with enough money to travel to Europe for a couple of months afterwards.
A couple years later I chose to go to (private) library school. I had a little financial aid and borrowed $9,000. I started work as a librarian during my first semester and have not been without a job since. Being a science person helped my career a great deal. (But I'm a liberal arts person too!) I was able to repay the loan in a couple years.
I've made some lucky financial decisions, and for the past 10 years or so have been working for personal reasons more than financial. I have a home, my family, my community..still working on that "lasting legacy" bit.
All through my life a great deal of my time, energy, and money has gone toward improving my health. I've come to terms with it. Sort of.
As Henry James said, "Money's a horrid thing to follow, but a charming thing to meet."
My parents died with the most toys, but they didn't win.
what a success story! I cannot understand why people like your parents even have kids if they are going to leave them on their own at 18 with a disability. You're right, they didn't win, but you sure did.
freshstart
1-14-16, 5:36am
I was in 1st grade so maybe 1977, my school used the hole punch cards for attendance and gave me piles of them to play "computer" at home. Around that time, there was a NYT article with a picture of a tiny square of computer memory (or whatever it was called) and the article said this little thing would one day hold thousands of books. I brought that into show and tell because I could not wrap my little brain around that. A few years later, my little brother got put into a group of kids who were taught simple coding and he soared from there.
Ultralight
1-14-16, 7:27am
I never felt like I needed much.
I think that not needing much is a true talent. I am lucky to feel this way also.
Maybe he was one of those midgets.
People used to talk about IBM and the seven dwarves.
iris lilies
1-14-16, 10:30am
I never felt like I needed much. My parents were well off and unhappy (many houses and cars, big boat, plane, fancy travel, etc.), so getting rich was never a goal for me. They were mean and miserable...
...My parents died with the most toys, but they didn't win.
Thats a great story, and how wonderful that you were able to find your way.
I cringe at parents who find 18 year old children "needy" never mind those with a disability. Your life as you have crafted it is lovely.
There is a a discussion going on the MMM site about leaving assets to children, and one of the moderators is certain that he will cause his ( as yet unborn) child to be on her own at age 18 with no financial help from parents. I am just rolling my eyes at this since it's impossible to tell if this action is appropriate for the child or not, it's too early.
Yet I do understand that in many cases, removing parental aid does cause a young person to focus on life skills to provide roof, food, and wheels for himself.
Now Im rambling,But great story, Gardenarian!.
I am enjoying all the viewpoints and life stories on this thread. I am one of those who grew up with highly educated but dysfunctional divorced parents. They had very successful medical careers but miserable private lives. The honest truth is that even at age 60, I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I think the most likely path I should have taken would have been as a business owner or entrepreneur. Regrettably (I think), I did not finish college or obtain a degree. I don't believe that anyone owes us anything but I do think the 10 yr loan forgiveness is fair given that graduates in the social work sphere will be lower paid and are doing the work that needs to be done. I scratch my head though at the amount of UL's loans however. But back to the OP's question - I feel very fortunate to have enough given my lack of higher education. It will never be what Money magazine says someone of my age needs, but I didn't need a STEM career to learn how to live on less.
Ultralight
1-14-16, 12:56pm
I didn't need a STEM career to learn how to live on less.
:+1:
re the discussion about early days of the transition to personal computers and other technologies, I was watching the CNN documentary on Steve Jobs the other night and I almost posted about it here in a surge of passion about how much I love Steve Jobs. Not him per se, and I certainly wouldn't want to have worked for him, but he did change the world. He parted the Red Sea of information. I know Bill Gates is the other half of that story, but there's something about Jobs that Gates doesn't have--the way he relentlessly edited his products and made them lovable. A true visionary. I wish I kept my old SE (well, I don't really, I guess, but I remember it fondly).
bae, being on the crest of that tide must have felt like being with Neil Armstrong in July 1969. Good for you, and thanks for your contributions to the information tsunami of the late 20th century.
Teacher Terry
1-14-16, 1:23pm
I saw the discussion IL is talking about and think it is crazy to have a child if you want it to be on it's own at 18. It was possible when there were good manufacturing jobs when I was young but that ship has sailed. Also college has gotten much more expensive. UL: you must have borrowed a ton of $ to live on also to rack up that much in student debt. I know a few people that did that.
Ultralight
1-14-16, 1:38pm
I saw the discussion IL is talking about and think it is crazy to have a child if you want it to be on it's own at 18. It was possible when there were good manufacturing jobs when I was young but that ship has sailed. Also college has gotten much more expensive.
The thing is that kids are really unpredictable. One of the reasons I have thus far avoided having kids is that I am afraid they would grow up to be right-wing nutjobs.
But my dad wanted me to be a truck driver and to live a successful working-class life -- buy a house in a small town, work, get married and have a kid or two, buy stuff.
Well, look what he got: An atheist, anarchist, minimalist son who hates driving, does not own a home, is divorced, (luckily) has no kids, and works as a govt loan drone with three university degrees on the wall.
You just can't predict this stuff. Kids do wacky stuff. They are not "mini-me." They are themselves.
UL: you must have borrowed a ton of $ to live on also to rack up that much in student debt. I know a few people that did that.
You could say I took a bit of a pretirement. ;)
ApatheticNoMore
1-14-16, 2:00pm
being on one's own at 18 whose knows what they wanted, well the vast majority of the time when they were Dr Jekyl they wanted me to go to college, my entire family did. Then when my dad was an angry Mr Hyde he would yell at me when I was a 17 year old senior in high school why am I not self-supporting at that age like he was. He was self-supporting at 16, I am so spoiled and entitled. Now if he had really wanted that, although that is a tall order, maybe things like GED would have been mentioned to me, but they never were and I was not aware of such options (so he was yelling at me because I was not a *HIGH SCHOOL* drop out without even a GED?). But that was typical of what is expected of one, one should have achieved really tall order things while being given no help to get there. I have some dairies from then, I indeed took it on and wondered if there was something wrong with me for not being self-supporting then and vowing to be self-supporting as soon as possible (of course it didn't happen quite that fast). What do one parents want? It all depends. Are they in Dr Jekyll mode or Mr Hyde mode?
Ultralight
1-14-16, 2:07pm
being on one's own at 18 whose knows what they wanted, well the vast majority of the time when they were Dr Jekyl they wanted me to go to college, my entire family did. Then when my dad was an angry Mr Hyde he would yell at me when I was a 17 year old senior in high school why am I not self-supporting at that age like he was. He was self-supporting at 16, I am so spoiled and entitled. Now if he had really wanted that, although that is a tall order, maybe things like GED would have been mentioned to me, but they never were and I was not aware of such options (so he was yelling at me because I was not a *HIGH SCHOOL* drop out without even a GED?). But that was typical of what is expected of one, one should have achieved really tall order things while being given no help to get there. I have some dairies from then, I indeed took it on and wondered if there was something wrong with me for not being self-supporting then and vowing to be self-supporting as soon as possible (of course it didn't happen quite that fast). What do one parents want? It all depends. Are they in Dr Jekyll mode or Mr Hyde mode?
Parents are unpredictable too!
Remember when Radio Shack came out with the TRS-80? I think it was 77. My little brother bought 2 of them with the money he'd saved his entire life. I think he was 8 (he'd always saved every allowance, every gift, and he'd won some money through a Kellogg's contest one year). He said "This...is going to be my life." He tore one apart to see how it worked and used the other one. He's been one of the higher-ups at Intel for 22 years now. I always think about how happy he was to always know exactly what he wanted to do and even though it is a seriously stressful job, he loves it.
I'm currently not sure what it would take for me to be really happy. I think I confuse happy with comfortable. I've been happiest when I've not had debt and had jobs that were more fun. Currently, we've got some debt and 2 kids in college who are both struggling with "what do I do with my life". I'd almost like to encourage them to take a year off, work, then go back to school with some idea of what they want out of life. Both have investments that are paying for their first 2 years. I'm sure there are stats out there somewhere that shows if a person returns to college after working a year that they are less likely to take on debt.
Ultralight
1-14-16, 2:35pm
He said "This...is going to be my life." He tore one apart to see how it worked and used the other one. He's been one of the higher-ups at Intel for 22 years now. I always think about how happy he was to always know exactly what he wanted to do and even though it is a seriously stressful job, he loves it.
I am envious of people who know what they want/wanted to do in life.
I've been more the type to say: "I don't want to end up in ______________."
So I move away from things I don't like rather than toward things I do like. That works in some ways, but it can make you feel like a pinball.
The thing is that kids are really unpredictable. One of the reasons I have thus far avoided having kids is that I am afraid they would grow up to be right-wing nutjobs.
But my dad wanted me to be a truck driver and to live a successful working-class life -- buy a house in a small town, work, get married and have a kid or two, buy stuff.
Well, look what he got: An atheist, anarchist, minimalist son who hates driving, does not own a home, is divorced, (luckily) has no kids, and works as a govt loan drone with three university degrees on the wall.
You just can't predict this stuff. Kids do wacky stuff. They are not "mini-me." They are themselves.
You could say I took a bit of a pretirement. ;)
Who was it who said that "when I was twenty, I thought my father was a fool, but the older I get the more I'm impressed with the progress he has made"?
Reading some of this stuff, I'm thinking I must be one lucky SOB. I clearly made a very intelligent choice of parents. By example and precept, they made me see that building a good life was more a matter of sweat equity than waiting for some epiphany revealing your one great passion. In fact, we're all a little bit suspicious of passion in our family. Money is not everything, but that doesn't mean it's something to sneer at.
I also (at least so far) seem very fortunate in the progeny department. She's only nine, but as I watch her grow and develop, almost all her differences from me seem to be for the better. If she doesn't grow up to be a right-wing nut job, I have faith she'll become something even better.
I also (at least so far) seem very fortunate in the progeny department. She's only nine, but as I watch her grow and develop, almost all her differences from me seem to be for the better. If she doesn't grow up to be a right-wing nut job, I have faith she'll become something even better.
:+1:
Ultralight
1-14-16, 3:48pm
Who was it who said that "when I was twenty, I thought my father was a fool, but the older I get the more I'm impressed with the progress he has made"?
Reading some of this stuff, I'm thinking I must be one lucky SOB. I clearly made a very intelligent choice of parents. By example and precept, they made me see that building a good life was more a matter of sweat equity than waiting for some epiphany revealing your one great passion. In fact, we're all a little bit suspicious of passion in our family. Money is not everything, but that doesn't mean it's something to sneer at.
I also (at least so far) seem very fortunate in the progeny department. She's only nine, but as I watch her grow and develop, almost all her differences from me seem to be for the better. If she doesn't grow up to be a right-wing nut job, I have faith she'll become something even better.
Don't get me wrong. My dad gave me a few good pieces of advice in life -- like "Have a plan!" and "Watch before you step when you're hiking through a tropical jungle."
But I was mostly illustrating two things:
1. Parents don't often really know their kids. This does not surprise me because of how much parents work and outsource parenting (to daycare or schools or nannies or whatever). But I remember right after college as I was waiting for word on graduate schools. I got a Graduate Council Fellowship -- the "most highly-esteemed" fellowship or scholarship at the University of Alabama. I told my dad about it and he just looked at me in total confusion. He said -- aloud but also to himself -- "hmmm... fellowships are usually awarded to the most promising students." He could not wrap his head around Bama deeming me a most promising student! lol Why? Because he did not (and does not) know me.
2. Kids are unpredictable. When I was a kid, I took unpredictability near its zenith. haha
Ultralight
1-14-16, 3:52pm
I also (at least so far) seem very fortunate in the progeny department. She's only nine, but as I watch her grow and develop, almost all her differences from me seem to be for the better. If she doesn't grow up to be a right-wing nut job, I have faith she'll become something even better.
I second Alan's :+1:.
freshstart
1-14-16, 8:28pm
re the discussion about early days of the transition to personal computers and other technologies, I was watching the CNN documentary on Steve Jobs the other night and I almost posted about it here in a surge of passion about how much I love Steve Jobs. Not him per se, and I certainly wouldn't want to have worked for him, but he did change the world. He parted the Red Sea of information. I know Bill Gates is the other half of that story, but there's something about Jobs that Gates doesn't have--the way he relentlessly edited his products and made them lovable. A true visionary. I wish I kept my old SE (well, I don't really, I guess, but I remember it fondly).
bae, being on the crest of that tide must have felt like being with Neil Armstrong in July 1969. Good for you, and thanks for your contributions to the information tsunami of the late 20th century.
I agree about Jobs. I tried to read the door stopper of a memoir but it was soon after my brain broke and I did not get far. I think I'm ready to try again. I feel stronger about Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the world wide web, he could've stopped right there and gone down in history as a pioneer, to say the least. But instead he advocates for Net Neutrality and the Alliance for Affordable Internet to bring the internet to developing countries where only 30% of the people are online. And a zillion other projects, especially working to keep gov't information open to the public unless there is a serious reason not to. The energy he brings to his not for profit projects is humbling. Since my brother got to be part of his team, I met him. After having heard all that he has done, I was stumbling over my words of gratitude. IMveryHO on this topic, he is nothing less than a hero.
TVRodriguez
1-15-16, 8:30pm
Such thoughtful posts in this thread. I just read them all.
On the original question, I think my number could be between $1,500,000 & $2,000,000 plus my paid off house.
I can't fault anyone for taking out tons of loans. Many here know that my husband and I had about $325,000 in student loans. Through both hard work and good fortune, we paid them off. I personally chose a field of study (law) that was not only intetesting to me but that also had a good chance (at graduation in 1999) of providing enough income to pay off the loans. I chose not to pursue the masters program in public health that, at that time, was producing graduates with incomes that didn't seem high enough to cover the loan amounts.
The latest blog entry on Mr MMM has the story of an attorney who retired at 33. Also lots of commentary on various degrees and their "worth".
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