raising kids without power and control

[Zoe Girl]

I was talking to a young lady I work with yesterday and the topic of how we raise kids came up in the context of our school culture. Our school is an expeditionary learning model. The kids have one or more expeditions each year that frame the work they do. For 5th grade this year it is social justice so they are reading books like Esperanza Rising (great book) and doing project based learning around this theme. There are more choices than a traditional school around how to access information and present learning. It both gives choice for individual learners and has a higher level of responsibility for them.

It made me think of how I raised my kids. I had certain things I wanted them to learn, (cook from scratch, manage money well, and pack a camp site up in under an hour with everything being put away properly). All these things were with the intention of raising future adults rather than perpetual children. That doesn't mean they all were able to run out of the house at 18 in this economy and make a living, however it does mean that they have the skills to do this and we can work with the larger picture of the economy. Most of what they learned ( I hope) is that they have choices and consequences, rather than trying to control choices they make with guilt, strict rules, manipulation.

How this looked was having regular family meetings about basic stuff. We planned menus together for the week, each person got a meal to plan and the rest were group decisions. They knew they were responsible if they were with friends doing stupid things, but also could call me to get out of the situation when they realized it was stupid. All of them learned to drive and got licenses a little slower than 16 because I put in as much effort as they did for the driving time. That was their choice, if they wanted to hang out with friends instead of driving I wasn't going to nag but I wasn't going to drop everything for extra driving time either.

When I think about it as much as we went through (divorce, some drug issues, social anxiety, depression, truancy, serious insomnia, a baby adopted, a mass shooting,) I feel like it was more pleasant than a lot of parents feel. The couple of years where I needed to exert more control were miserable. We had to go to truancy court and dad tried to have my son put in a mental hospital so I had to work VERY hard to get him to treatment and show effort on that, when we decided to go the GED route it was a relief and disappointing. Overall however I took myself out of so many power struggles that it was much better all around. Mostly it created a sense that my job as mom wasn't to control them, it was to give them the skills to control themselves. I even see parents of adult children still getting into a sense of their kids being an extension of themselves and a need for control.

Hmm, looking at a blog post with this.

[Ultralight]

Can you clarify a bit more?

[Zoe Girl]

Can you clarify a bit more?

Not sure what part, more concrete examples of what it looked like? or how I feel we benefited?

I can say that to me it is the difference between having pre-conceived ideas of who my kids are rather than responding to them as who they are at that time. With my first baby my ex and I were amazed at how many parents already 'knew' their kid was going to be a certain profession. Meanwhile by our 3rd we were confident enough to not name him for 3 days, and just let ourselves get to know him. Funny that he ended up with one of the most common boy names!

[Ultralight]

See below for areas where clarification might be helpful.


Most of what they learned ( I hope) is that they have choices and consequences, rather than trying to control choices they make with guilt, strict rules, manipulation.


When I think about it as much as we went through (divorce, some drug issues, social anxiety, depression, truancy, serious insomnia, a baby adopted, a mass shooting,) I feel like it was more pleasant than a lot of parents feel. The couple of years where I needed to exert more control were miserable. We had to go to truancy court and dad tried to have my son put in a mental hospital so I had to work VERY hard to get him to treatment and show effort on that, when we decided to go the GED route it was a relief and disappointing. Overall however I took myself out of so many power struggles that it was much better all around. Mostly it created a sense that my job as mom wasn't to control them, it was to give them the skills to control themselves. I even see parents of adult children still getting into a sense of their kids being an extension of themselves and a need for control.

[rodeosweetheart]

I really like your emphasis on treating children respectfully and as individuals. I think as parents, we are constantly balancing societal expectations for our children and our selves, societal expectations that we make them fit in, conform, do certain things, act certain ways--I know I lived in a community where soccer playing was considered vital to a child's development--still not sure why--so if you could not deliver your child to soccer practice and if the child hated soccer practice because the coach was yelling at him--then your child was considered a failure, and you a failure as a parent!

I have a friend whose daughter grew up in a very competitive community on the East Coast, where getting into the perfect college, having lots of outside activities, great grades--they were all considered necessities in raising perfect children. Her daughter committed suicide after being bullied on social media.

So I really like your emphasis on respect and raising children to respect their individual personalities and natures.

Very important point!

[Chicken lady]

My kids were homeschooled until they didn't want to be.

actual conversation with oldest at age 15

kid - I don't want to go to school tomorrow.
me - ok.
kid - what?
me - ok. It's your education. If you don't feel a need to be there, don't go.
kid - but I have to go to school.
me - why?
kid - because it's a rule. And I feel guilty.
me - it's a rule that you only get 4 unexcused absences. I'm not going to lie on an excuse note, so if you skip more than 4 days I'll be withdrawing you back to homeschooling - I'm not going to court over this. Guilty is your problem.
kid - but you're the mom! You're supposed to make me go!
me - so you can be angry at me instead of guilty?
kid - yes!
me - no thanks.


she did go to school.

[Gardenarian]

Chicken lady - I have had that exact same conversation!

I agree that you have to let go of controlling your kids.
I tell my daughter that I'm like a coach; I can teach, guide, and demonstrate, but it's up to her to practice and perform.

[LDAHL]

I set out to raise my daughter without power and control, but she wouldn't let me.

[Zoe Girl]

.
kid - but you're the mom! You're supposed to make me go!
me - so you can be angry at me instead of guilty?
kid - yes!
me - no thanks.


she did go to school.

Love it! I had similar situations and took more control but it didn't work out as well. A large factor was dad's style which was punishing and volatile. So the kids came home in a state that was very hard to work with, it was a relief to have them full time.

With my son's extended truancy I ended up taking him to the ER one morning. When we went to court the counselor at school shared how he turned sheet white one morning in her office at the thought of going into a classroom. But I still had to have limits, if he was not ready to get to school by a certain time I had to go to work and he had to contact his counselor by email. When he took the GED he had to get the paperwork together and schedule it, if he didn't then truancy laws would kick back in. He can do a great job with more adult responsibilities, just high school nearly killed him.

UA, maybe the other people sharing is helping with clarity,

[Ultralight]

It is interesting how super liberal people raise their kids vs. how very conservative people raise their kids.

[LDAHL]

It is interesting how super liberal people raise their kids vs. how very conservative people raise their kids.

I think it may be possible that conservatives put a little more emphasis on accountability and liberals may put a little more on self-esteem, but unless you cover both bases pretty comprehensively, you're going to wind up with a mess.

[JaneV2.0]

I was raised to be very accountable, and my parents left it up to me to develop my own self-esteem, if any. I doubt I'm the exception to the rule. (To my way of thinking, self-esteem follows success, it doesn't precede it.)

Sometimes I think conservative vs. liberal amounts to black and white thinking vs. exploration of gray areas. Black and white is certainly easier.

[Teacher Terry]

I am very liberal but I raised my kids the same way I was raised with rules and consequences. We were fairly strict but did talk things out with the kids when they were older such as the teen years. When they were small we didn't discuss things. Self esteem does follow success. I hate how the schools now want to give an award to everyone, etc. Kids need to learn that you earn them.

[Ultralight]

For me, when I was a kid, it was mostly just tough love.

[freshstart]

my son and I are oil and water, he's like his dad, so laid back you need to check for a pulse or explosive temper that escalates rapidly over literally nothing. It was clear at a very young age he was on his own timetable and that worked with him. I would think, "OMG, he never listens, he is never going to be able to... insert life accomplishment here...," yet he always did. He did not like my natural consequences style of parenting and lessons in how to be an independent adult when you leave for college and left to live with 'there are no consequences' dad at 15. He started therapy with me at that time, left me in the dust there and continues to go on his own and has said he knows he has to work on his temper and there has not been an episode in the past year and a half. He was not an athlete at all which is big in his school, it took him time to find kids like himself, but they are great kids.

He decided to take a year off from college and I urged ex that if he chose that he should be working full time, he should be buying his own car, he should contribute to living in the household, the ex did not agree and said if Adam wanted to play music all day that was fine by him, he was not going to enforce anything. Greeeeat! Adam immediately got a job as a waiter in a fancy senior community, he works double shifts constantly. Ex bought him a clunker of a car, he got stranded enough that he saved and spent 7k on used Honda with few miles. He became a strict vegetarian and got on an exercise kick, lost 50 lbs. He claims he is the most dependable and well-liked employee at his job and despite the fact he is not a bit modest, I believe him. He contributes to his 403B (I was shocked when he told me this and he said, "Mom, I heard you. You drove me nuts but I heard you and I am independent partly because of you." I almost fell over!) He decided not to go to school to be a music teacher as there are no jobs in this field and instead raised the tuition himself to become a luthier. Then is coming home to do 2 yrs of business at our community college. Somewhere in there, he plans to learn wherever one does, how to repair antique watches. I no longer worry about him landing a gig as a luthier as he has shown me that if one thing doesn't pan out, he will change course accordingly. He has a roster of children he gives guitar lessons to. He went from being a goofy kid his senior year, to quite a serious, responsible young man who doesn't even look like the same person a year later. Adam's timetable, not mine. That was always hard to learn and I have to say I think growing up with natural consequences and teaching independence for the first 15 yrs and then my ex's practically totally hands off parenting style with him may have worked in the end. We didn't know what we were doing, we didn't agree ever on what to do but he turned out and always was a moral, kind and now incredibly hard-working and wise beyond his years young man. It kills me to think of him in Phoenix going to luthier school where there are no dorms so he has an apt alone and since he is only there 6-9 mos plans to only buy a mattress and kitchen things, thinking of that threadbare existence kills me. But it won't be that way, he found the type of kids he likes to hang around with here, he is social, he will be fine. I just have to stay in the background and watch him grow.

I also worried that with his temper (there were several episodes of violence with me and his sister) that he may not treat women with respect, domestic violence was a problem with his father. He recently confided in me that is part of why he stays in therapy. The last episode of violence involved police presence and he had to be physically restrained by my dad. DD was scared of him, hell, I was scared of him that day. That was a sad wake up call but in hindsight, better to grapple with those demons now than later. We did not speak for close to a year after that happened, I thought our relationship was irreparable but it is slowly coming back. He also cut off ties with my parents, which broke my dying mother's heart, that too has slowly been repaired. He has had lengthy relationships with two young women and I have no worries about how he treated them. Most of his friends are girls. I do not see history repeating itself, I see a young man who has many of his father's good traits and some bad and he is working to get rid of the bad. He also can more than take care of himself and I believe part of that came from me. As did his strange sense of humor. He is not high strung like me and for that I am thankful.

DD completely, 100% different kind of kid. Thank God, Adam almost killed me, lol.

[LDAHL]

I was raised to be very accountable, and my parents left it up to me to develop my own self-esteem, if any. I doubt I'm the exception to the rule. (To my way of thinking, self-esteem follows success, it doesn't precede it.)

Sometimes I think conservative vs. liberal amounts to black and white thinking vs. exploration of gray areas. Black and white is certainly easier.

The healthy kind of self-esteem, anyway. The other kind is entitlement, of which we see plenty.

Whenever I hear that claim about how much more nuanced liberals are in their thinking, I recall what William F. Buckley said,

"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."

[LDAHL]

my son and I are oil and water,

I'm discovering that my daughter is very different from me, almost always for the better.

I blame her mother.

[Chicken lady]

My kids absolutely hated natural consequences. One of them once asked "couldn't you just smack us and get it over with?"

[ApatheticNoMore]

I suspect self-esteem has something to do with criticism and praise and isn't just developed entirely in some self-contained vacuum where you never notice anything the kids do or where you only notice the bad things the kids do (peer influence probably figures in a decent amount, but I suspect it's largely a social thing with parents and peers, and it's not just related to success against an internal standard that is entirely self-contained and fully developed at 6 years old or whatever). My parents never praised, but did criticize when they felt like it.

[freshstart]

My kids absolutely hated natural consequences. One of them once asked "couldn't you just smack us and get it over with?"

it worked with DD, I confess mostly a fail with DS. I loved our hippie hippie pediatrician and he pointed me that way. What I failed to do was see that the natural consequence should've been to totally change my philosophy with him.

[freshstart]

do you ever long for a do-over? hand me that baby, I can do better!

[JaneV2.0]

The healthy kind of self-esteem, anyway. The other kind is entitlement, of which we see plenty.

Whenever I hear that claim about how much more nuanced liberals are in their thinking, I recall what William F. Buckley said,

"Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."

I wouldn't say that I'm shocked; more like dismayed. Nuance. :~)

[JaneV2.0]

I have a friend who, as a divorced working mother, once remarked that her offspring mostly raised themselves. I think she was selling herself short--there were a few rough patches, but the kid turned out well, and is currently studying engineering. I believe genes have a lot to do with it. Studies indicate peers are hugely important, too.

[Chicken lady]

Yeah, there were times when the natural consequence of treating me badly was "I am angry at you and I'm not going to take you to xyz, host your friends, whatever." - basically "you're grounded", but with more reasons. I once fed them the same easy to make, healthy, boring food every day for almost two weeks when they decided they weren't going to help with food prep or kitchen clean up (chunk of wheat bread, shelled nuts, whole piece of fruit, washed raw vegetable). That was the month they started learning to cook (and refused to share until I told them they couldn't use my ingredients)

my dad just smacked me and got it over with. He distinctly remembers the day I turned around and looked at him and said "some day, when you're old, and decrepit, and in a wheelchair, I'm going to sneak up behind you and push you down a flight of stairs."

Dh's mom also smacked him. It worked great. He seems to think if I had grown up in his house I would have been a different kid, but I doubt it. By the time I was five I had figured out they weren't actually going to kill me, and everything else was negotiable. My son was the same way. We said we had three kids- #1 - "I better not do this, there might be negative consequences." #2 "what are the consequences? Ok, I can live with that." And #3 "to hell with the consequences!" Ironically 1&3 are completely reversed as adults.

[Ultralight]

I have a friend who, as a divorced working mother, once remarked that her offspring mostly raised themselves. I think she was selling herself short--there were a few rough patches, but the kid turned out well, and is currently studying engineering. I believe genes have a lot to do with it. Studies indicate peers are hugely important, too.

Peers? Yes. TV, schools, juvenile detention centers, coaches, clergy, etc. all play a part.

[Teacher Terry]

No do overs for me. I loved raising them-it was really fun but once I was done I was done.

[freshstart]

Peers? Yes. TV, schools, juvenile detention centers, coaches, clergy, etc. all play a part.

not being obtuse, are you making a point by leaving out their actual peers, as in friends and fellow students? Adults are not peers. I'm probably totally missing your point

[freshstart]

No do overs for me. I loved raising them-it was really fun but once I was done I was done.

true, those were so fun but very long years. Single motherhood dinner time witching hour, I am free, finally free of that! That felt like a decade, it probably was a decade.

[Zoe Girl]

Very long, single mom for 12 years. pretty damn tiring. But we made it!

My fave consequence was when I worked all day and they had to do the dishes. Once they were old enough to feed themselves something reasonably I would come home and see all the dishes in the sink, tell them I couldn't possibly cook or eat, and then leave and go get some simple fast food for myself. I always made sure that there was food available, if there wasn't I would pick up cans of soup or something. But I didn't cook unless they did the dishes. I don't know if I would classify this as liberal or conservative however, I just did was was reasonable and natural. What it wasn't was volatile, yelling, blaming, tearing each other down, guilt trips, etc. It was calm most of the time, direct, and really clear. My kids are stubborn, I probably took myself out to eat a dozen times! But I didn't have to clean the kitchen and cook dinner when my blood sugar was in the toilet.