Packing party...

[Ultralight]

I am attending a minimalist packing party this weekend. It should be interesting!

[KayLR]

Packing party? Please 'splain! Sounds intriguing.

[Alan]

....minimalist packing party....
Is that like a toothbrush in your pocket?

[freshstart]

Alan, you took the words out of my mouth.

[bae]

I am attending a minimalist packing party this weekend. It should be interesting!

Minimalist packing? Does this involve thongs?

Perhaps I lived in SF for too long...

[catherine]

I thought it must be about guns, given the story about Mr. UA "packing" on the last fishing trip.

[Ultralight]

LOL to you all!

A minimalist packing party is where a person who has lots of stuff wants to minimize very quickly. So they pack up (usually with help from friends) everything they own!

Then over 30 days they only unpack what they use, as they need it.

Most people apparently have at least 80% of their stuff still packed up after the 30 days.

It makes decluttering easier after that, from what I have been told. Sometimes whole boxes or stacks of boxes can get donated/tossed.

[Chicken lady]

Ah! I thought one of your minimalist friends was moving and all his friends were coming over to help him pack. Which didn't make a lot of sense.

[nswef]

Chicken Lady, I thought the same thing and wondered why the minimalist would need help packing up minimal amounts.

[Williamsmith]

You know if this minimalism stuff catches on we are going to have a crisis with over burdened landfills and overwhelmed donation sites. Can you imagine the angst if there were laws against discarding anything? Sure would make you think twice about buying that tenth tube of chap stick or your fifth television.

[Chicken lady]

My inlaws and I both live on land that was inhabited when "the dump" meant "the place on your land where you put stuff you can't pass on, reuse, or burn. In my case there is a low area at the top of a ravine where broken pottery, glass and rusty metal periodically come to the surface. I toss the glass and metal into the recycling bin.

i have a friend who thinks our great great grandchildren will be strip mining the landfills.

[mschrisgo2]

We already "have a crisis with over burdened landfills and overwhelmed donation sites."!!!

In most metropolitan areas of the US it is difficult to "get rid of" furniture. There is way more than needed, can't sell "that nice old wood furniture" in fact, can't even give it away because nobody needs it.

[Miss Cellane]

You know, I have heard variations of this over the years. The idea being that if you haven't used something in a month, or three months, you don't need it.

I don't get it.

I will probably not use my snow boots, winter coat, parka or gloves/hat/scarves from now until November, but I *will* very definitely need them then. Packing them up now will lead to one of two results. 1) Come November, I will be late to work one day because I had to find the right box and unpack the winter gear. Or 2) the box will be accidentally tossed/donated, and I will have to replace everything.

Do minimalists not have Christmas decorations (if they celebrate Christmas)? Or other seasonal things, like a warm throw in winter?

Do they all live in climates where they can wear the same clothes all year round?

Do they not grill outside only part of the year?

Or have other hobbies/sports that can be done only in certain seasons?

Certainly, pack up the stuff you are thinking of getting rid of, and see if you need it in the next [insert time period here]. But to pack up everything, including the toothbrush you use twice a day, and other things that you know you use and will keep, just seems like overkill. And a waste of time and energy, both to pack it up and then to immediately unpack it.

[JaneV2.0]

The only way minimalism makes sense to me is if you need to move often, or want to. Otherwise, it just seems like deprivation. Just a matter of perception, of course.

[Chicken lady]

I guess to me, minimalism is about owning only what you need to own - so if everything you need is accessible by public transit, you don't own a car, but if you live 20 miles from town, you own a car.

i would argue that everybody needs a toothbrush. Some people may feel that they need art In their home, while others may be happy with access to museums and galleries or no art in their lives at all.

It's just that the people who are really vocal about minimalism tend to be mostly those who have few needs or define "need" really strictly ".essential to life" instead of "essential to a good life"

[Williamsmith]

Minimalism is supposed to enhance your life by relieving burdensome possessions that require maintenance or unecessary tending. But I detect more than a touch of religious zeal in some peoples embrace of minimalism to the point of hypocrisy.

[Kestra]

To me it's just about not owning things I don't like or need. Of course I have winter gear, but I don't have art or a car.
Now, of course, I use a lot of my boyfriend's things so I don't necessarily fit the strictest definition of a minimalist. But I have a sense of peace and comfort and freedom from not personally owning much. If you don't get the same psychological reward from minimalism then it won't really make sense to you. I also feel that I'm easily visually overwhelmed, which also is a character trait that only some people have. I'm as uncomfortable in a cluttered environment, with a bunch of decorations everywhere as other people would be in a minimalist space with bare walls.

[bae]

I have never used the AED I have at home on the kitchen, and ideally never will.

I have used the one in the car 3 times now, and all those people are still alive.

I have a great lightweight precision rifle that is of no use here, as I don't hunt here. I use it every year or two in Africa when I am working on tracking poachers, and it is most handy to have a trusty rifle that you can rely on out to 800+ yards when hunting something that can shoot back.

[freshstart]

I am not a minimalist, I have a lot of stuff. But I also have a lot of stuff I don't like or use. The minimalist threads on here and the Kondo-izing are helping me get rid of that stuff without guilt (I kept stuff because I had bought it and felt too guilty to give away something I "should have" used, so I better keep it and use it even though I never did use it). And now I am very conscious of what comes in. There's something to that "spark joy" stuff.

Now it sparks joy in me to give away stuff I know is in decent shape and will be used. I felt great getting rid of 11 bags of too small clothes that were in good condition to the charity that is trying to ease the burden of a poor community hit hard by a hurricane and many lost everything including their house.

A modified minimalist packing party would be good for me for the stuff I just can't quite get rid of yet.

[Williamsmith]

A packing party just seems way too overdone for the task at hand. I am acutely aware of the things I use and the things I never see. The places that hold worthless items are apparent to me. Under the bathroom sinks, in the garage boxes or storage cupboards, in drawers and under the beds. They have already been packed. An audit of my wallet will usually turn up an expired card or document. A thorough clean out of my truck yields a few worthless items. The packing has already been done. The party aspect has less to do with a social gathering than it has to do with peer pressure. Who participates in something like that without demanding positive feedback later on? It seems all too much like a religious sacrament to me. Or a bible study with boxes. I choose to do my minimalism by myself, which isn't that more in tune with the whole concept in the first place? Crowds make me nervous, especially in my own home.

[freshstart]

I have never used the AED I have at home on the kitchen, and ideally never will.

I have used the one in the car 3 times now, and all those people are still alive.

I have a great lightweight precision rifle that is of no use here, as I don't hunt here. I use it every year or two in Africa when I am working on tracking poachers, and it is most handy to have a trusty rifle that you can rely on out to 800+ yards when hunting something that can shoot back.

bae, I;ve been impressed by all the good things you have done for others, tracking poachers in Africa takes the cake

[Williamsmith]

He is a most interesting person but I think everyone could use a lightweight precision rifle.

[shadowmoss]

I think the packing party is for those who have a difficult time drawing the line between I know I want to keep this and maybe I should or should not keep this. It gives a chance to unpack the necessary only and life with just that for awhile to add clarity to where that line might be. Packing something out of sight makes it easier to make decisions based on need and utility rather than the emotional baggage of actually looking at it.

I believe it was made popular by The Minimalists (may have the wrong blog...) in that is what one of them did to start his journey. Others decide to try it to see if they learn anything.

[Ultralight]

You know if this minimalism stuff catches on we are going to have a crisis with over burdened landfills and overwhelmed donation sites.

Williamsmith:

There already is a crisis of over-burdened landfills. But the landfills are our homes.

[Ultralight]

You know, I have heard variations of this over the years. The idea being that if you haven't used something in a month, or three months, you don't need it.

I don't get it.

I will probably not use my snow boots, winter coat, parka or gloves/hat/scarves from now until November, but I *will* very definitely need them then. Packing them up now will lead to one of two results. 1) Come November, I will be late to work one day because I had to find the right box and unpack the winter gear. Or 2) the box will be accidentally tossed/donated, and I will have to replace everything.

Do minimalists not have Christmas decorations (if they celebrate Christmas)? Or other seasonal things, like a warm throw in winter?

Do they all live in climates where they can wear the same clothes all year round?

Do they not grill outside only part of the year?

Or have other hobbies/sports that can be done only in certain seasons?

Certainly, pack up the stuff you are thinking of getting rid of, and see if you need it in the next [insert time period here]. But to pack up everything, including the toothbrush you use twice a day, and other things that you know you use and will keep, just seems like overkill. And a waste of time and energy, both to pack it up and then to immediately unpack it.

A much more often used rule of thumb is "if I have not used it in a year, I don't need it and can get rid of it (and never buy that item again!)." This way you go through all four seasons.

Some minimalists have Xmas decorations. I do not, but I am not a Christian.

Some minimalists live in steady climes, like the tropics. Others, like me, live in four season climates. I have clothes for all seasons.

I rarely grill. I cannot speak for other minimalists. But I bet a minimalist whose passionate about grilling grills often.

I know a minimalist who plays soccer. He plays during the warm months outside. He does not like indoor soccer. So he does something else during the cold months. I fish mostly in the spring, but also some during summer and autumn. During winter I do other things.

[Ultralight]

The only way minimalism makes sense to me is if you need to move often, or want to. Otherwise, it just seems like deprivation. Just a matter of perception, of course.

Jane:

If minimalism is deprivation then why do all the minimalists I know talk about how much better their lives are? Sure, I only have 157 things. But I have more time and energy to be active in my community and to spend time with my dog and to go fishing.

I think some folks really value their relationships (marriage, friendships, community involvement). Others really value experiences (vacation or adventures). And some people really prefer stuff (toys, gadgets, clothing, etc.)

Perhaps you prefer stuff and that is why you think of minimalism as deprivation?

[JaneV2.0]

Jane:

If minimalism is deprivation then why do all the minimalists I know talk about how much better their lives are? Sure, I only have 157 things. But I have more time and energy to be active in my community and to spend time with my dog and to go fishing.

I think some folks really value their relationships (marriage, friendships, community involvement). Others really value experiences (vacation or adventures). And some people really prefer stuff (toys, gadgets, clothing, etc.)

Perhaps you prefer stuff and that is why you think of minimalism as deprivation?

I think most people like a mix of those things, in different proportions. It's not a zero-sum game. People bragging about how much better their lives are (than what? Other peoples'? Quantify that, Science Man.) seems kind of pathetic to me.

[Ultralight]

I think most people like a mix of those things, in different proportions.

I agree and I should have actually said this in my statement. I lean toward relationships and experiences. I lean very far from stuff. Others certainly have different configurations.

It's not a zero-sum game. People bragging about how much better their lives are (than what? Other peoples'? Quantify that, Science Man.) seems kind of pathetic to me.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean it is not a zero-sum game? I am not clear on what you are saying.

Well, I think people are saying that their lives are better after having simplified. So their simplified self vs. their complicated self. This is the case for me. Nothing has alleviated my depression and anxiety (which I have had my whole life) like dramatically simplifying my life and focusing on what really matters to me.

There is a body of research that shows that people are happier who are significantly more into their relationships and experiences. As it turns out, materialism can make people less happy, according to the research anyway. But perhaps you are an outlier and materialism brings you more happiness and fulfillment than relationships or experiences.

Do you, boo! :)

[JaneV2.0]

" But perhaps you are an outlier and materialism brings you more happiness and fulfillment than relationships or experiences."

A non sequitur for sure. Nowhere did I say I didn't value relationships or experiences. Nowhere did I indicate I was any more materialistic than anyone else.

Did you not read what I wrote? Different mixes for different people. Different ways to simplify.

[Ultralight]

" But perhaps you are an outlier and materialism brings you more happiness and fulfillment than relationships or experiences."

A non sequitur for sure. Nowhere did I say I didn't value relationships or experiences. Nowhere did I indicate I was any more materialistic than anyone else.

Did you not read what I wrote? Different mixes for different people. Different ways to simplify.

Okay. :)

[Teacher Terry]

I used to like having a bunch more decorations in my house, etc then I do now. It can be interesting how we can change with time. I also find it much easier to clean now that I don't have so much crap. Everytime I think I am down to what I really love eventually I will purge again and find stuff I don't want. I used to decorate the entire house for every holiday. Now I just have a few xmas decorations. Just the other day I went thru my office and our Mbath and threw away or donated a ton of stuff. We have many thrift stores here that are always looking for items. They will take all furniture except tv cabinets and china hutches. However, I can get rid of stuff on craiglist by selling it or giving it away. I like that someone else may want to use it. I just gave some oak dining room chairs that I was sick of to a young couple who were thrilled to get them. I would not pack up everything either just to unpack it. But I am able to cull my things but maybe that is the only thing that will work for some people.

[Ultralight]

It can be interesting how we can change with time.

Amen sistah!

[ApatheticNoMore]

It seems horrible confusion of which way causation flows to me. People who are happier because of their relationships are likely to be people who are able to get in good relationships. People who grew up in abusive relationships aren't initially able to and their relationships are sometimes not good and they have every rational reason to want to leave them.

I don't think there is much trade off between stuff and relationships really. If you are a hoarder. Well yea maybe, that is an extreme end of it (and I wouldn't even assume it's what causes hoarders problems with relationships - only if they see friends otherwise but don't like to invite them in their house would I assume that hoarding is the cause, if they have no friends anyway then more is going on and hoarding is peripheral to those issues). If it makes moving more difficult? Yea maybe. But how much time does most stuff really take? I can't imagine it taking much. Where exactly is the time drain? Buying stuff? Hate to say it but online shopping makes that no time except the time your bored out of your mind at work anyway. Cleaning stuff? Oh maybe a little, but dishes will need to be cleaned when you use them anyway even if you only have a few. Where exactly is all this time devoted to stuff?

However worrying about how much stuff you have and focusing a lot on it and expecting having less stuff to be a major key to happiness seems to me misguided. Because neither stuff nor no (minimal) stuff seems key to happiness to me. Shouldn't you be working on actual personal growth or something instead? Shouldn't you be focusing on things that will actually make your life better iow. It seems to me the wrong goal. Much like expecting things to spark joy does. Something like looking for love in all the wrong places. Worrying about how much stuff you have seems to me itself a waste of life energy. But I don't really care what other people's goals are. And not everyones goals are going to be focused on the very most important things all the time. I have goals that aren't lofty as well, like to do my taxes, and they got done :~). Maybe I just don't think you should expect lofty results from goals not focused on the heart of things, like minimizing making one's life so much better any more than doing taxes vastly improves my life (it is a weight off me but no).

[Teacher Terry]

i think stuff does take time. You have to clean it, dust it, etc. Now that I majorly down sized my decorations I clean much faster. Some things do spark joy for me. They remind me of a person, place, happy time or just because it is beautiful and looks so nice. Sometimes i have things for years and then one day I no longer want it so I let it go to make someone else happy. It has really helped me not to shop because I think to myself am I going to be taking this to the thrift store in a few years. I think of the wasted $. We have 2 patios-one next to the house that is covered and one at the back of the yard. The one in the back has sat empty for 4 years. I have a ton of company coming to stay with us this summer and decided to buy some nice chairs that come with a firepit table. I know even when we don't have company we will use it because of our mild climate we sit outside alot. So now when I want something I don't buy it right away but I sit with it for a few weeks and most of the time I forget about it.

[Ultralight]

It seems horrible confusion of which way causation flows to me.

Right, we don't know if it is a matter of causation or correlation...yet. But maybe the research is more definitive now. I will look into it again. But just because we don't know that it is a matter of causation does not definitely mean that it is not a matter of causation.


People who are happier because of their relationships are likely to be people who are able to get in good relationships.

Part of minimalism is minimizing the negative and/or toxic relationships in your life. I did this! It was helpful. It certainly helped me to invest more in the good relationships I had and to seek out better relationships in the future. This is partly why I am so involved in both the simple living community and the atheist community. My experiences with both have been almost entirely nourishing and had little or no toxicity.


People who grew up in abusive relationships aren't initially able to and their relationships are sometimes not good and they have every rational reason to want to leave them.

Leaving them is a minimalist act!


I don't think there is much trade off between stuff and relationships really.

What do you mean?


But how much time does most stuff really take? I can't imagine it taking much. Where exactly is the time drain? Buying stuff? Hate to say it but online shopping makes that no time except the time your bored out of your mind at work anyway. Cleaning stuff? Oh maybe a little, but dishes will need to be cleaned when you use them anyway even if you only have a few. Where exactly is all this time devoted to stuff?

Time stuff takes:
-You have to work to earn the money for it.
-You have will yourself to not be distracted by it.
-You have to clean it
-You have to organize it (or live in a mess)
-You have to make and/or buy space to store it (which costs money and time)
-You have to take measures to protect it
-You may have to insure it
-If you are going to buy something, you have to research it
-Opportunity costs are an issue too

There are probably others, but this illustrates the reality of the situation.


However worrying about how much stuff you have and focusing a lot on it and expecting having less stuff to be a major key to happiness seems to me misguided.

I can only say that it dramatically improved my life. I can also relay what others have told me about simplifying their lives and how it has helped them.


Shouldn't you be working on actual personal growth or something instead?

Learning to be less materialistic, more frugal, a wiser consumer, and to use what I have creatively (rather than buying something new) sure sounds like personal growth to me!


...expecting things to spark joy does.

I am with you on this. I am not so sure any "thing" sparks joy to me. Occasionally some "thing" will facilitate a joyful experience or relationship though.


Worrying about how much stuff you have seems to me itself a waste of life energy.

Are you worried?

[Chicken lady]

My life is much better now that I don't care what my house looks like.

i used to think I had to clean everything up and dust and sweep and clean up all the dishes and laundry and it took up far too much time and interfered with my relationships.

now I have realized that there are plenty of people I enjoy spending time with who are perfectly happy to come over to my messy dirty house and all I really need is a place to sit and a clean glass to offer them a drink, and a real friend will stand there and talk to you while you wash it!

[Ultralight]

My life is much better now that I don't care what my house looks like.

i used to think I had to clean everything up and dust and sweep and clean up all the dishes and laundry and it took up far too much time and interfered with my relationships.

now I have realized that there are plenty of people I enjoy spending time with who are perfectly happy to come over to my messy dirty house and all I really need is a place to sit and a clean glass to offer them a drink, and a real friend will stand there and talk to you while you wash it!


My mom says this about her hoard. But the fact is that her hoarding has been detrimental to many relationships over the years.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Time stuff takes:
-You have to work to earn the money for it.

you have to work regardless, unless you have massively expensive taste stuff makes little difference in this. I mean I suppose it might be true if you are putting in voluntary overtime to buy more stuff, but I don't know many people, even those working overtime, for whom it's voluntary rather than a condition of keeping the job (and it's often not even paid).


-You have will yourself to not be distracted by it.

maybe it's a pleasant distraction - "oh I sure like that x I have ..." or whatever (sparking joy may way overstate it, as it's really too strong an emotion to feel for most things, many of which are purely utilitarian, but I understand this to a small degree ...). So distraction can be wanted sometimes as well. I think some people get more distracted by visual stimuli than others though, so there may be some difference in people here.


-You have to clean it
-You have to organize it (or live in a mess)

to some degree


-You have to make and/or buy space to store it (which costs money and time)

I suppose. I think paying a bit more for rent boils down more often to not wanting roommates etc. and has very little to do with stuff. I mean the choices in my budget pretty much boil down to: roommates, studio apartment, one bedroom apartment (and the cost difference between the last two is often very little). I suppose if you are actually renting actual storage places, I'm not sure more stuff than one's dwelling can hold is the main reason people use those rental places though. I think they are often in in-between places in their lives, and that's why they use them (in between dwellings, relationships (getting a divorce say), jobs, cities - but I don't have much experience with that).


-You have to take measures to protect it

only if you really think it's worth anything, most stuff people has isn't, I mean you may really like a certain shirt say, but market value is quite another thing (it probably doesn't have much). Most things are that way, unless your collecting fine art and the like.


-You may have to insure it

hmm, that world is alien to me, those fine art collectors I guess.


-If you are going to buy something, you have to research it

sometimes


-Opportunity costs are an issue too

which are?

[Teacher Terry]

I actually have gotten rid of unhealthy friendships and also made some new ones. Now that I am semi-retired I have the time to keep my house cleaner and i really enjoy having it that way. Also because I got rid of so much junk it takes much less time to clean and we down sized to 1400 sq ft so that makes everything quicker too. I will go to someone's house that is messy if we are good friends but I don't enjoy sitting in chaos and a mess. When I have company for dinner I am not the kind that will jump up and do the dishes, I would rather spend the time with my company talking, etc but you can bet my house is clean when they get there. I think there is a happy medium to things.

[Chicken lady]

No, the hoarding is different. I'm talking about the general care of the normal everyday stuff in the house that the whole family agrees we should have, but nobody else cleans up. Examples - dishes, food packaging, towels, reading material, tools, shoes and outerwear, furniture (the top of the dresser gets dusty wether there is stuff on it or not. The table you eat on eventually needs to be cleared and wiped off) speakers, remote controls (I will never dust off another remote control as long as I live. As far as I'm concerned we could dump them and most of what they operate. - I'd keep the stereo, but I already walk over to it to use it.). Other people wear shoes in my house and my stairs are always dirty.

i recognize that the tower of papers on the kitchen counter is a problem. And that it has not been solved by boxing it and moving it to the corner. But if you care about a dusty box in my corner so much that you can't be my friend, you are the one who finds stuff more important than people. And I wish you a good journey, seperate from mine.

[Chicken lady]

And I do clean for company or special events. But if you dropped by today, I'd invite you in and not care that my counters are dirty, my dining table is covered with garden stuff, the bookshelves are dusty, there are dishes in my sink, my spare bed is covered in laundry, and every floor in the house needs to be swept.

[Ultralight]

you have to work regardless, unless you have massively expensive taste stuff makes little difference in this. I mean I suppose it might be true if you are putting in voluntary overtime to buy more stuff, but I don't know many people, even those working overtime, for whom it's voluntary rather than a condition of keeping the job (and it's often not even paid).

Some people do put in OT to pay for more stuff. My BIL does it. His mom and dad both do it. His brother does it. Much of this is volunteer OT. But, I don't have the facts and figures on which OT is volunteer and which is not. So let us just say that for some folks, working for more stuff is a real thing. But another angle is working on the tail end of one's life for the stuff purchased in the beginning and middle of one's life (20-55 years of age, for instance). People put off retirement because they don't have the funds, but they might have had the funds had they not been so mesmerized by stuff.




maybe it's a pleasant distraction - "oh I sure like that x I have ..." or whatever (sparking joy may way overstate it, as it's really too strong an emotion to feel for most things, many of which are purely utilitarian, but I understand this to a small degree ...). So distraction can be wanted sometimes as well. I think some people get more distracted by visual stimuli than others though, so there may be some difference in people here.

I mean, yeah. Okay. It could be a pleasant distraction. But I'd like to spend my time creating a life I don't want to be distracted from. Also: I am a person who is indeed visually overwhelmed by "stuff."



to some degree

You do have to clean and organize things. Otherwise they can gather dust, be tripping hazards, be fire hazards, rust, etc. Let's say you spend a half hour a day. Multiply that by 365 (days). Then multiply that by 75 (years) That comes out to something like 13,687 hours. That is a lot of hours!



I suppose. I think paying a bit more for rent boils down more often to not wanting roommates etc. and has very little to do with stuff. I suppose if you are actually renting actual storage places, I'm not sure that's the main reason people use those rental places though. I think they are often in in-between places in their lives, and that's why they use them (in between dwellings, relationships (getting a divorce say), jobs, cities - but I don't have much experience with that).

Come now. Be realistic. Lots of people buy bigger houses because they "don't have enough space!" The house itself is "stuff." And it takes like 30 years to pay off. Maybe people just use those storage facilities for temporary life changes. But maybe most people are using them long term.




only if you really think it's worth anything, most stuff people has isn't, I mean you may really like a certain shirt say, but market value is quite another thing (it probably doesn't have much). Most things are that way, unless your collecting fine art and the like.

Most people think their stuff is worth a fair amount. They get security systems put in and so forth.


hmm, this world is alien to me

You don't insure your cars or house in any way?




sometimes

Right, only sometimes. I am sure people just do crazy impulse buying all the time too. But is justifying impulse buying by saying "at least you did not waste time researching it!" really remotely sensible?



which are?

When a person chooses stuff -- things they bought on impulse or on a whim or as retail therapy or what have you they lose out on the other opportunities they may have had to do something else. So this varies greatly.

[ApatheticNoMore]

You don't insure your cars or house in any way?

no. I rent a one bedroom apartment, maybe I should have renters insurance, I don't, but I suppose it might be worth it. Make the case and maybe I'll consider it. My car is 12 years old, because of that it isn't insured for all that much beyond liability as it's the law to have liability coverage to own and drive a car. If it was a newer car it would have more insurance, so when that day happens that I need a newer car, I'll worry about it then.


Right, only sometimes. I am sure people just do crazy impulse buying all the time too. But is justifying impulse buying by saying "at least you did not waste time researching it!" really remotely sensible?

well it's more some things take more research than others. Suppose you are buying the same pants you have always bought before, you know they fit as sizing doesn't seem to vary much. It doesn't exactly take much research to buy them online. And that's pretty much the case with ALL repeat purchases. I think things that take a lot of research are things with electronic components as a lot of times they aren't well made. I suppose that's why I don't like buying them all that much (I may not be an extreme minimalist but I like simple things I don't have to think that much about maybe). Sure a car or something takes research, but I accept that.


When a person chooses stuff -- things they bought on impulse or on a whim or as retail therapy or what have you they lose out on the other opportunities they may have had to do something else. So this varies greatly.

What if they just bought something at Amazon while they were bored at work. The time was wasted anyway (one was at work afterall the ultimate waste of times of all waste of times). If they research a purchase when they are bored at work the time would be wasted anyway as well. What if they buy as a reward? What puritans are never clear on is what exactly healthy rewards are, because I think it's a basic human impulse (but stuff bad, food bad, drugs bad etc.).

[iris lilies]

And I do clean for company or special events. But if you dropped by today, I'd invite you in and not care that my counters are dirty, my dining table is covered with garden stuff, the bookshelves are dusty, there are dishes in my sink, my spare bed is covered in laundry, and every floor in the house needs to be swept.

Now my house, at least the first floor, is pretty neat and tidy on a daily basis except when I am preparing for flower shows. OK, well, a couple of times a week the counter has dirty dishes, but I don't consider that extreme.

But for years and until only a few months ago when we had elderly, incontinent dogs, I hated for people to come in because there was usually a pile of something smelly around. Two friends who have no sense of smell were always welcome, however.:)

I would point out to DH "There are feces smears here on the baseboard and that's bad, I'll clean it. But be aware, and when the feces smears rises to the level of the wall, that's when Social Services will come in and remove our children. "

At least we had SOME standards around here. ugh. Glad those days are over.

[Ultralight]

no. I rent a one bedroom apartment, maybe I should have renters insurance, I don't, but I suppose it might be worth it. Make the case and maybe I'll consider it. My car is 12 years old, because of that it isn't insured for all that much beyond liability as it's the law to have liability coverage to own and drive a car. If it was a newer car it would have more insurance, so when that day happens that I need a newer car, I'll worry about it then.

Okay, this makes more sense. I had renters' insurance a long time ago when I had a bunch of stuff. It was like $12 a month. Back then I thought it was worth it, with all my archery stuff, gadgets, etc. A few places I lived required it for move-in. But now, it'd be a waste of money, I think. I don't have anything much worth stealing. And I could replace most anything I own with only a minor expense. My car is the one thing worth "a lot."

So I am not going to make the case for you to get renters' insurance.




well it's more some things take more research than others. Suppose you are buying the same pants you have always bought before, you know they fit as sizing doesn't seem to vary much. It doesn't exactly take much research to buy them online. And that's pretty much the case with ALL repeat purchases. I think things that take a lot of research are things with electronic components as a lot of times they aren't well made. I suppose that's why I don't like buying them all that much. Sure a car or something takes research, but I accept that.

Okay, I get you now. Makes sense.




What if they just bought something at Amazon while they were bored at work. The time was wasted anyway (one was at work afterall the ultimate waste of times of all waste of times). If they research a purchase when they are bored at work the time would be wasted anyway as well. What if they buy as a reward? What puritans are never clear on is what exactly healthy rewards are, because I think it's a basic human impulse.

Interesting points here.

[iris lilies]

Okay, this makes more sense. I had renters' insurance a long time ago when I had a bunch of stuff. It was like $12 a month. Back then I thought it was worth it, with all my archery stuff, gadgets, etc. A few places I lived required it for move-in. But now, it'd be a waste of money, I think. I don't have anything much worth stealing. And I could replace most anything I own with only a minor expense. My car is the one thing worth "a lot."

So I am not going to make the case for you to get renters' insurance.





Okay, I get you now. Makes sense.





Interesting points here.

There are liability issues that come up, and that's the main justification I've seen for renter's insurance.

For instance, if Harlan turns on the water in the bathtub while you aren't home and it fills the tub and overflows, crating severe damage to the unit below you, that accident may be on you.

[Ultralight]

There are liability issues that come up, and that's the main justification I've seen for renter's insurance.

For instance, if Harlan turns on the water in the bathtub while you aren't home and it fills the tub and overflows, crating severe damage to the unit below you, that accident may be on you.

Don't you talk bad about my dog! haha

I did not know that. Good info!

[Teacher Terry]

I always have the rooms that others would go into clean enough that I would not be embarrassed if someone came over unannounced. My son and I were just talking about one of his childhood friend and the parents. I can't remember how we got on the subject but they were the nicest people and I knew my son was well taken care of when he was there. However, there would be dinner dishes on the DR table from the night before and you would have to move them to make room to eat breakfast, etc. The whole house was that way. He said it was disgusting even as a kid. My DH has many fine qualities but cleaning is not one of them so I do all the cleaning. He was raised in a messy house so just does not notice things.

[iris lilies]

Don't you talk bad about my dog! haha

I did not know that. Good info!


Ask me how I know this. Our cats have turned on the water in the bathtub a few times and once it was at the top of the tub by the time we found out. Fortunately the drain was taking care of the excess. Now we have tied up the faucets securely so that it won't happen again.

[mschrisgo2]

Or the people above you have cats or kids who flood their bathroom and, subsequently, your bedroom and all of your clothes, books, and mattress are soaked, only they don't have insurance. You would be mighty glad YOU do!

[jp1]

There are liability issues that come up, and that's the main justification I've seen for renter's insurance.

For instance, if Harlan turns on the water in the bathtub while you aren't home and it fills the tub and overflows, crating severe damage to the unit below you, that accident may be on you.

Or, god forbid, Harlan freaks out for some reason and attacks someone. It's undoubtedly highly unlikely, but not a zero possibility. I've had renters insurance for years not because our stuff is particularly valuable, (although I splurge the extra $30/year to get replacement value so it will replace all of our clothes and furniture and such at full value if the building burns down) but more because if some guest in our home slips and falls and cracks their head open and sues us, I don't want to have to use all of our assets to defend against it. The modest amount of money we spend to prevent that possibility is worth it to me.

[Chicken lady]

So, how did the packing party for?

[Ultralight]

So, how did the packing party for?

Clarify?

[Chicken lady]

Go, not "for". Blurry vision (see elephant thread) plus touch screen plus auto correct.

how did the packing party go? Tell us about it?

[Ultralight]

We got 25% to 33% of her stuff packed. The hoarded garage and overstuffed basement did not even get touched. I took three huge carloads to the Goodwill for her amidst the packing. My car is small but designed in a way that allows you to really pack it full of stuff!

[Chicken lady]

Wow! Sounds like she needed a purging party more than a packing party. Great that you could help her so much though.

when you say "hoarded garage" - is she able to park a car in it?

[Ultralight]

The purge part was a drop in the bucket.

I learned some interesting stuff about "stuff" and how people think of it and behave toward it. There were 6 of us helping her everyone made their own comments on the topic.

And no, she cannot park in her garage, not many Americans can.

[Chicken lady]

Really? Because we have a two car garage and we park two cars in it. Otoh, we also have a pole barn the size of a small house with a full workshop, a pottery studio, a wall of toy storage, a loft with a queen sized bed, and room to park two tractors and a farm truck in spite of all the extra crap in there.

everyone I know except my sister-in-law can park in their garage. (And they have a 2 car and her dh parks in his half).

[Ultralight]

Really? Because we have a two car garage and we park two cars in it. Otoh, we also have a pole barn the size of a small house with a full workshop, a pottery studio, a wall of toy storage, a loft with a queen sized bed, and room to park two tractors and a farm truck in spite of all the extra crap in there.

everyone I know except my sister-in-law can park in their garage. (And they have a 2 car and her dh parks in his half).

Is your garage considered a "Clutter free zone" for your DH?

[Chicken lady]

No, i like to unload groceries without getting wet or snowy. I would call it "messy". There is stuff hanging on or piled against the two side walls and overstuffed, randomly stacked shelves on the wall of the house.

Much of the stuff on one wall is seasonal and goes out in the yard soon (hose, hammock, chimes...) or construction related and goes to the shop or trash when we are done. The other wall is yard/driveway tools - rake, snow shovel...

the shelves are on my "low priority" purge list. We have 5 sizes of rubber boots we don't actually wear, but we loan them to visitors. In our environment it's an important note of hospitality. Plus each of the kids/sos keep mud shoes or boots here.

dh car is a "clutter free" zone - he won't let me keep a hair elastic in his glove compartment.

[Ultralight]

No, i like to unload groceries without getting wet or snowy. I would call it "messy". There is stuff hanging on or piled against the two side walls and overstuffed, randomly stacked shelves on the wall of the house.

Much of the stuff on one wall is seasonal and goes out in the yard soon (hose, hammock, chimes...) or construction related and goes to the shop or trash when we are done. The other wall is yard/driveway tools - rake, snow shovel...

the shelves are on my "low priority" purge list. We have 5 sizes of rubber boots we don't actually wear, but we loan them to visitors. In our environment it's an important note of hospitality. Plus each of the kids/sos keep mud shoes or boots here.

dh car is a "clutter free" zone - he won't let me keep a hair elastic in his glove compartment.

Four seasons can sure grow one's garage or closet! I envy those in steadier climes, sometimes. :)

I am an avid rubber boots wearer. I wear them almost year round -- all autumn and all spring for fishing. I wear them in the winter because it is snowy and wet. In the summer I usually wear river shoes though -- the boots get too warm.

[Ultralight]

...I don't have art...

I don't either. If you want to look at art you can go to a museum or a gallery or google it. If you want to listen to music, there is plenty on YouTube.

I will say this, I think everyone should create art -- even if just a little here and there. Its good for you!

[freshstart]

I'm curious- does the person who had so much to purge consider herself a minimalist or is that her goal because that sure sounded like a ton of stuff compared to say, you?

[Ultralight]

I'm curious- does the person who had so much to purge consider herself a minimalist or is that her goal because that sure sounded like a ton of stuff compared to say, you?

She does not consider herself a minimalist. She did not consider herself one before the packing party. And she still does not consider herself one.

What she says is that she wants to live a simpler life with less stuff. Maybe she thinks of herself as an aspiring minimalist? But I would say, if I had to make my best guess, that she considers herself a normal person who is influenced markedly by minimalism.

Does that make sense?

[freshstart]

yup, thx

[jp1]

dh car is a "clutter free" zone - he won't let me keep a hair elastic in his glove compartment.

How does DH accomplish compliance with this? I grew up being taught that cars were no clutter/no eating zones and would prefer my car be this way. But SO routinely leaves piles of napkins and crumbs everywhere, and piles of change in the cup holders. I try not to nag, especially since he does things like get the oil changed, but it drives me crazy when there are crumbs and a combination of used and new napkins everywhere.

[ToomuchStuff]

My car is small but designed in a way that allows you to really pack it full of stuff!

So, any trouble packing in the car this time? (interesting title, sounded more like your dad)

[Chicken lady]

We have an agreement. He has a car, I have a car. If I want to ride in his car, I have to follow his rules. When he is forced to ride in my car, he has to remember that he didn't have any other choices and so should appreciate the ride and keep his opinions to himself.

If you are sharing a car, I can only say, I'm sorry.

[Ultralight]

So, with a couple of delays my friend is planning next weekend to "yay or nay" the stuff in boxes from her packing party.

She and I were discussing it and I tapped into a little Kondo with the sparking joy question.

This got her thinking.

Then I mentioned a simplified idea might just be to ask: "Do I love this or need this?"

Again, this resonated with her and will likely inform her moves ahead on the simplification.


Then I really had this moment of anxiety. I did not mention this anxiety because it was bizarre, but more so because this is her moment. She is the one simplifying her space.

But the thought that gave me some anxiety is actually a thought I had before, and I maybe mentioned.

Though this time it came on with the emotional force of a bona fide realization.

I don't love anything I own.

I need plenty of things -- work clothes, my memory foam mattress, my water bottle, and so forth.

But I love no thing.

This realization made me feel vulnerable. How strange is that?

[Teacher Terry]

I do find that strange. I love many of the things I own. It is important to me that my home feels comfy and welcoming so I have things that make it that way. I love being home so it needs to be a relaxing atmosphere and I am not talking about owning stuff to impress people but just feeling good in my home. that's one reason I don't like to rent because I want to be able to change things to suit me.

[JaneV2.0]

I always doubted that observation (usually expressed with some smugness) that experiences are far more satisfying than possessions. I've never found that to be true, with a few exceptions. So I was happy to find an article taking issue with such a sweeping pronouncement. But then, I'm not a minimalist.

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/12/dont-underestimate-the-pleasures-of-stuff.html

[Ultralight]

I always doubted that observation (usually expressed with some smugness) that experiences are far more satisfying than possessions. I've never found that to be true, with a few exceptions. So I was happy to find an article taking issue with such a sweeping pronouncement. But then, I'm not a minimalist.

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/12/dont-underestimate-the-pleasures-of-stuff.html

Yup, it looks like that article confirms your bias.

Stuff does make people happy! Now you can feel smug about all your stuff! :)

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think a lot of the experiences people buy might be far more damaging to the environment than things. Buying trips all over the world and so on. But that's the type of thing people often think of when they think "experiences".


Things break, stuff gets lost ..

lost uh maybe, how often are you really losing you things? Well other than the keys. But ideally you are buying things that won't break. I don't even enjoy buying things that break easily (well whatever I have glass cookware and so on but other than that).'

The thing about introverts is we don't like most experiences very much.

[Ultralight]

I rarely lose things now. And when I do, it is really, really lost. haha

Things do break. I am tough on equipment for sure.

Jet-setting all over the planet is massively damaging. So true!

Even crunchy lefties don't want to give up their jet-setting ways!

[Teacher Terry]

Interesting article. i think at this point in my life I am enjoying experiences more but my house is fixed up just the way I like it so nothing more to want there. Now if I had to choose between the 2 I would choose the house because I spend more time there then traveling, etc.

[Ultralight]

Let's complicate it a little.

Suppose I like bike riding.

I go out and buy a bicycle. I get the buyer's high!

Then I go out riding everyday and this is a really fun experience -- though it is mostly free, local, good exercise, etc.

Granted, bike riding through the trail near my apartment is not traveling to Belize for a week. But it is still an experience.

Did buying the bike make me happier? In this context, yes.

But does the experience of riding that bike give me many, many more experiences that each contribute to my happiness?

I'd say yes.

But would going out and buying another new bike every month make me even happier?

Sure, if I liked buying new bikes more than riding the bike I already have.

Though that does not seem like it would make sense.

[jp1]

The thing about introverts is we don't like most experiences very much.

I would disagree about introverts and experiences. I very much enjoy some experiences. Perhaps different ones from what extroverts enjoy, and perhaps experienced with less people or different people, than extroverts. But I definitely enjoy them. For instance I have an extrovert co-worker friend who loves to go for walks. As do I. However, one Monday we were at the water cooler discussing the walks we had taken over the weekend and there was not much similarity. Her idea of a walk is strolling down the street with her BF, looking in shop windows, running into neighbors and friends, etc. My idea of a nice walk is going up and down the hills of San Francisco at as fast of a pace I can manage without having a heart attack and maybe stopping to snap a few pictures of the view when I get to the tops of the hills. Other people and window shopping are most definitely not part of my walks.

[Ultralight]

I think it all depends on the experience.

I loooooooove the experience of going to a nice beach and swimming the ocean, maybe do a little snorkeling or catch a small wave on a surfboard. haha

Do I like going to an arena rock concert? No.

[ApatheticNoMore]

yea maybe it was just the experiences given in the article: tickets to a concert or a meal at a restaurant. And it just sounded so bleh. No wonder people would rather have nice things! Duh :~). Ok if the concert is small and local I might go, and I eat at restaurants sometimes but it's not some big adventure to me.

My idea of walk: ambling about in a natural place (company is good - just another person), talking and sometimes identifying and observing the plants (plants are endlessly interesting and different every time of year) and other things (birds etc. - though I can't identify those), maybe cover 4 miles or more sometimes, but not quickly, take breaks during or after just to take in the surroundings.

[Ultralight]

No wonder people would rather have nice things! Duh :~).

I think that within this little bit of snark is a huge and important insight.

[freshstart]

weird to think about, I had to actually pause and think about what things do I own that I truly love, I had to do a mental inventory, there aren't that many. Many things I enjoy and they do bring comfort and joy to my life but I don't love them. Thank God for dogs, although I don't suppose they count as 'things'.

[iris lilies]

I do fall in love with "stuff" I have to admit it.

I am mad at myself for not doing this earlier: moving the tv to sit atop my favorite 1840's chest of drawers. I love that cheast, and for years it sat to the side in our livng room. Now it holds up the tv and there are actually times when I lose interest in the sqwak box because I am gazing at the mysterious beauty of the chest of drawers.

[Teacher Terry]

IL: I have a few antique pieces that I am totally in love with. I sold the pieces that I didn't love. This week we are putting the finishing touches on our backyard that has been 4 years in the making. It doesn't rain much here so thing don't grow so good. Anyways I bought a patio set with comfy chairs and a fire pit table that I know we will spend a lot of time using and enjoy. We have 2 patios-no clue why the owners before did that but now I am glad they did. We have a lot of out of town company this summer so should be fun.

[JaneV2.0]

My old landline phone wore out and I ordered a new one to replace it. Every time I look at it, it makes me smile--it's such a pretty, shiny cherry red. Simple pleasures for this old bird.

[jp1]

Thinking about experiences that I really enjoy there are a couple that stick out. One costs money. Going to beautiful wineries with beautiful grounds, on a beautiful spring or summer day, and spending an hour or two doing a leisurely tasting. Not the super fancy, busy, over the top wineries in napa, but the more down to earth ones that exist in parts of Sonoma county. Spending a weekend, doing a couple of wineries a day before going back to the hotel for a nap and then a nice dinner is one of my absolute favorite things. The other costs no money (well, except for the rent we pay each month.) I love our deck. We have a beautiful view of a very pretty city with the ocean off in the distance. I can sit out there for hours reading a book. (and have sunburned legs at this moment to confirm that this is how I spent the past weekend...) In the future when we move away from this overpriced city my dream is to have a house north of the city with lots of trees and quiet, with an equally lovely deck that I can sit out on to read every weekend. And then maybe in the afternoon go to a pretty winery and do a tasting before coming home to cook dinner with SO and eat it out on our deck coupled with perhaps a nice bottle of wine that we picked up that afternoon.

http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s363/jpatter492/2015-03-14%2019.20.32_zpstb1q8mkr.jpg (http://s1048.photobucket.com/user/jpatter492/media/2015-03-14%2019.20.32_zpstb1q8mkr.jpg.html)

[catherine]

When it comes to acquiring things I love, they are all old things I've owned; I don't love anything new. Plus, the old things I love are mostly symbols of experiences. So I have this big old Chinese filing chest in my entry way and it's nice and all, but I remember going to the auction and buying it, even though we had NO intention of buying anything, but we'd had a great time at a music festival and after we bought it we debated about getting rid of it because it was too big for the hall.

Or, the antique steel engraving of a Renaissance family that DH bought when he was three sheets to the wind. I was so mad because we had NO money and he paid $100 for it, caressing it and telling me how much the people in the picture reminded him of "oor wee family."

Or, my great-aunt's antique secretary. The night she died, she removed her driver's license and social security card from one of the pigeonholes and laid it out for us to find easily. I see her every time I sit at the desk.

The stuff that comes without a story means nothing to me.

[mschrisgo2]

... Interesting... I don't have any furniture that I Love... a couple pieces that I like, all are useful.
I have a film camera that I used to Love, took lots of great pictures with it. Have not been able to justify buying a comparable digital camera, though I probably will when I retire and have time to really use and enjoy it.

I have my grandmother's cookie jar and 2 pieces of lovely pottery that my daughter made that I treasure. Everything else...meh... it could all be replaced easily enough, given enough money. Nothing sentimental, really. I thought about this recently in terms of evacuating quickly (in case of fire, as in the Alberta fire), dogs first, then dog food, the pottery and my laptop, or not.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I have things I like not love and though I may keep a few things with memories (a couple of dad's old sweatshirts) it's rather sad really - people that are gone. The things I like are just things I think are nice and usually I did a little looking for - I seem to like them more if I did.

But the thing about buying giving happiness is most buying isn't even worth it anymore as most stuff is cheaply made junk. So that type of happiness isn't even readily had. There is certainly no joy in buying cheaply made stuff.

Maybe why I really really don't get the spend money on experiences not stuff line is I suppose the experiences I like most of the time don't even cost much (gas money, or coffee money to meet up with someone etc. maybe). So maybe the experiences not stuff draws a kind of blank. I mean I have liked massages, but it's not like I'm really buying them all the time (mostly useful when under a lot of stress). Sure classes or something might costs but only do that if up for the effort anyway (and not always for fun).

[Teacher Terry]

For me the experiences I enjoy are vacations, meals out, wine tasting, festivals, etc. If you like wine tasting Placer co in CA has many wineries and so much less crowded and cheaper then Sonoma.