View Full Version : teens
freshstart
4-10-16, 5:43pm
my soon to be 17 yr old DD and 18 yo son are treating me terrible. Enough that if DD decides she no longer wants visitation with me, I'm not gonna fight it. They take advantage of me knowing I really can't punish them because they live with the ex and he does not co-parent at all. They make fun of the way I talk, DS said he's had better conversations with the couch. DD thinks she's granting me some huge favor to be in her presence on Sundays. Well, today she came in swearing and yelling and kept it up til she slammed out and left. She's threatening not to come anymore and at first I was devastated and then my parents helped me realize she has been nothing but a witch since I got sick. I want a simple life, right? Having these two miserable jerks around is just upsetting me and causing heart ache. If they don't want to visit, I am sort of ok with that.
They are good kids in school and in their community but they think they've got my number, that I have no power and they can talk to me any old way they want. That's done today. The next time one is here if that nonsense starts, we all agreed they will be escorted to the door. They don't do drugs, they have goals in life, they are not horrible kids anywhere else. I suppose that makes me happy but I'm done being a doormat. maybe they will respect me for that and come back into my life, maybe they won't but I am DONE living with them like this. No more texts to check in on them that they never reply to. No slipping them a little cash to see a movie. The perks are gone, they have to earn their way back into my life.
tell me teenagers get better
They do get better. Personally, I'm amazed at how much smarter my dad got from the time I was 18 to the time I was 25. :~)
Seriously, it sounds like your kids don't know how to treat people with whom they disagree. They need to learn or their lives will be mighty small. Since you are in charge of teaching people how to treat you, you may just have to close the Bank of Mom (including the emotional-engagement loans) and see if that affects them at all. n.b., I'm not a parent. But I see nothing wrong with stepping away for a while if someone is not willing to share their relationship with me. That includes siblings and it includes offspring.
freshstart
4-10-16, 7:47pm
DD made a plea to use my car from Thurs to Sundays as we have an extra car right now as my mom very rarely uses her car. No way that is happening now, you don't speak to your mother that way and then expect to go on negotiating for her car.
Stepping back is hard but I am here if they need me or if they can be kind. They are so self centered, it will probably take them months to realize I am pretty much ignoring them.
Sounds like they simply don't know how to deal with the challenge of the huge changes in their lives. I believed that I taught my two daughters what they needed to know by the time they were 16. After that, they learn from life experience and the coaching advice of others. Is there someone in their life that you know to help them work through some of the frustration that they are experiencing? If not, let it go and take care of you. They will one day understand much better what is happening now.
Just love what is good about them in your thoughts and they will feel this, I believe. Don't focus on the negative. Just as you would not tolerate abuse of anyone else, it is unacceptable when done to you.
Hugs for the hurt and ordeal that you are facing now.
Edited to add: keep a close record and recognize it every day, you have a lot going on that is positive - finances getting sorted out, a safe roof over your head, us to talk to, access to the internet info and other things as well. I am concerned that you get feeling overwhelmed and down when the expected support from kids doesn't come through.
mschrisgo2
4-10-16, 8:33pm
In my experience, teens those ages can be awfully self-centered, disrespectful, and obnoxious. They do go through a stage of trying to get what they want with manipulation and put-downs, especially with their parents. I believe the best thing to do is simply withdraw contact, as you have already decided. They go through the same stuff with their peers, and their bosses if they're working, so they have other places to learn their lessons... That said to help give you "permission" not to participate with this behavior. Your daughter and the car? That is a non-conversation, don't even go there.
They usually do get better, but it is likely to take a few years, don't count on seeing it any time soon.
Oh yeah, been there. My middle daughter was the worst and now she is kinda my best kid (as far as being close to mom and being a good person). I have had things thrown at my head, she ran away from home every counseling appointment for a time, was just plain rude and stupid. That alternated with times when she needed me as well. She got no allowance except basic lunch money, no shopping for goodies, and chores.
Rough on kids and rough on parents, we remember taking care of everything for them and of course have some expectation that they are going to care when we are having a hard time. I agree with setting limits, not taking abuse and trying to ride it out. As they shift back to normal humans I think it is important to not hold it against them (as best as us human parents can). When things started to shift with my daughter she has brought up a few things that happened, and I assure her that she was stupid and it is okay.
freshstart
4-11-16, 1:57am
this has been very helpful. They do get life guidance from my mom, they are pretty close to her. I agree that I taught them everything that I could think they needed to know by 16, now it's up to them. Their dad is a terrible co-parent, but I like to think when he is not bashing me, he is some sort of moral compass to them. I have to think that or I'd lose it.
I won''t hold it against them if they come around later, I'll just be glad if they mature out of this.
Miss Cellane
4-11-16, 7:13am
Is any part of their behavior "acting out" because you, their parent, aren't as well as you used to be? That can cause all sorts of feelings that they might not know how to deal with.
Because some of what you describe sounds as if they might be testing you, the way a four-year old will test parental boundaries.
When you tell your daughter she can't have the car, make it clear why. Tell her directly that she isn't getting it because of the way she has behaved. Let her learn her actions have consequences.
I'm sorry you are having to deal with this, on top of everything else.
Is any part of their behavior "acting out" because you, their parent, aren't as well as you used to be? That can cause all sorts of feelings that they might not know how to deal with.
I completely agree with this. It doesn't justify their behavior, but I'm pretty sure one day they're going to say, "I can't believe I treated Mom so badly!"
Many people can't handle people they love getting older and sicker--I think it often prompts a "fight or flight" response, which may manifest itself in exacerbated teenage rudeness and and lack of compassion.
freshstart
4-11-16, 9:57am
Is any part of their behavior "acting out" because you, their parent, aren't as well as you used to be? That can cause all sorts of feelings that they might not know how to deal with.
Because some of what you describe sounds as if they might be testing you, the way a four-year old will test parental boundaries.
When you tell your daughter she can't have the car, make it clear why. Tell her directly that she isn't getting it because of the way she has behaved. Let her learn her actions have consequences.
I'm sorry you are having to deal with this, on top of everything else.
it's definitely related to me getting sick. It was getting bad before but once I hit the skids, it went south fast. They resent my loss of income, DD said she was embarrassed to have friends over (I am not the Elephant Man, for Pete's sake) and they know their father will not enforce any limits I set. The judge ordered joint counseling for DD and me. We went twice and the counselor refused to follow the judge's order and said I can only come in when DD invites me. I can't even get an answer to if she is still going, although I highly doubt it. DS has been in therapy for years. So they have had the opportunity to discuss her feelings about me getting sick. They only seem to care as far as it affects them.
Here's when I wrote DS off: I was really bad, falling all the time. I face planted in the kitchen, back then I really needed help to get up. DS came in, I asked him for his help. He said I was blocking the fridge, slid me over with his foot, got his food and walked away.
DD's bday is the 26th, I am making no contact before then. She wanted a fit bit that my mother and I went in on, it arrived when she was here so she knows she got it. My finger is on the trigger to return it, she doesn't deserve an expensive gift but if I do it will be Def Con 3 and our relationship will probably be over for a good long time.
It will be made crystal clear why she is not getting the car. Which will also probably end our relationship because I have nothing else she wants.
I'm embarrassed to say it, I am ashamed of my own kids. You would think I was a terrible mother that they are acting this way. But I know I wasn't. There were logical consequences for disrespect and bad behavior, that doesn't happen at their father's. I worked hard to provide for them and was always there no matter what. They were deeply loved. But I have hit the limit and they can get by without me.
Hey fresh, it is really crappy. I would definitely have written off my child for not helping me up when I had fallen. My oldest is still my kid with the rockiest relationship. I have asked her to leave my house a couple times. Basically it was that she would not do ANYTHING around the house, and I was exhausted. I had a kinda crappy place then, all 3 kids with me, and a heavy work load. She worked nights, woke up before she went to work and then came home and stayed up all night (although quietly). I even once put a tub of dirty dishes on her bed and she just returned them to the kitchen instead of doing them.
I know that the whole co-parent system can make it worse. I was tough, really tough, so the kids stayed with me and we went through crap. If dad had given them material things he would have won them over easily. Still I have a mild mental illness and I work REALLY hard to keep everything going. I was amazingly exhausted at times. I think that people are kinda down deep crappy and dealing with really unevolved sh** that they are not aware of. I see with my mom and how she treats me sometimes and doesn't even realize it. My kids would lose it every time I got sick as well, just some survival instinct of not being with a sick person. Yet they also knew I was safer than dad so they wouldn't go to his house even when the heater broke in winter.
I am really hoping they grow up and out of this, it is so hard to see this side of humans.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 10:09am
You know, I read this stuff and I just cannot believe it is reality. I cannot fathom that your kids actually treat you this way.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 10:12am
I would definitely have written off my child for not helping me up when I had fallen.
Okay. Wow. You know if ZG says something that could have easily come out of my mouth then you know the situation requires some unheard of toughness and drastic actions.
Is any part of their behavior "acting out" because you, their parent, aren't as well as you used to be? That can cause all sorts of feelings that they might not know how to deal with.
Because some of what you describe sounds as if they might be testing you, the way a four-year old will test parental boundaries.
When you tell your daughter she can't have the car, make it clear why. Tell her directly that she isn't getting it because of the way she has behaved. Let her learn her actions have consequences.
I'm sorry you are having to deal with this, on top of everything else.
This was my thought too. People lash out in anger when they are angry. They are self-centered thinking, "mom's illness affects me", "it's not fair to me that she's sick", "I can't get what I want because she has to think about herself", "it's all about mom instead of about me". Hopefully, at some point, before it's too late.....they will change their attitude.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 11:54am
Something else I don't get...
FreshStart has initiated and taken part in many great conversations in here. She is often supportive, but also zings you when you need it (and is tactful about it). She jokes around and has entertaining and thoughtful posts.
How can they say her conversations are not interesting or worthwhile? Maybe they should get on here!
Here's when I wrote DS off: I was really bad, falling all the time. I face planted in the kitchen, back then I really needed help to get up. DS came in, I asked him for his help. He said I was blocking the fridge, slid me over with his foot, got his food and walked away.
I would disown my child if she treated a stranger like that, much less her own mother.
Is their dad or another relative encouraging or pushing them in this behavior?
I keep thinking about it since I posted earlier and just want to give you a hug FS! Your family should be surrounding you and helping you all they can, and like Bae if my boys had ever treated me like that my DH would of settled it. He has always taught the boys to respect me above all others.
Teacher Terry
4-11-16, 12:56pm
I have a good friend go thru something similar with her oldest daughter. They were not in contact for about 4 years and then the daughter came around and now they have a great relationship. I would totally disconnect and let them come around when they mature which I am sure they will. I am so sorry you are going thru this on top of everything else. Hugs:))
iris lilies
4-11-16, 12:59pm
OP, I am so sorry your children are acting like entitled brats. When you were sicker, perhaps it was actually better that the little turds didn't live with you. They would have been far more of a hindrance than help. But now that you have gained some equilibrium, I can see that you would welcome more (loving) interaction from your children.
I'm sure that the negative attitude of their father is adding to their boldness in how they treat you. They are also angry, scared, and puzzled at the change in their lives caused by your medical condition.
I can only hope that as they grow, they will gain better perspective on their relationship with you. I wish you well.
Williamsmith
4-11-16, 1:14pm
I've been there. My daughter moved in with a guy from London, England after she graduated college. He was from a rough neighborhood, he knew how to fight and did often. Wasn't somebody I thought she should be with but she always was interested in danger. She jumped out of an airplane for her eighteenth birthday, likes to drive fast and is always tearing up her car that way. She got tired of him beating other guys up over her, living in a postage stamp apartment and eating beans and bread for dinner while he played online video games....the violent kind of course. So she packed up one weekend and came home for good.
I said fine, you are in my house, my rules. She did pretty good for a couple months and then all the sudden a new boyfriend. He'd been convicted of felony burglary and drug charges as a juvenile. I went freaking bizerk. Told her to dump him, banned him from the property under threat of shooting him and promised to toss her out on her ear if she saw him again.
Well, she started lying and seeing him. She's driving around in a car I bought her, sleeping in a warm house I paid for, and eating food I brought into the house. I figured I'll give her the ultimatum. Quit seeing him or get out. She claimed she quit so one day I checked it out for myself and found them together.
I tossed her out that night. Packed everything in the car and told her never to come back. She left. Nobody talked to her, not even her brothers. Put right in the ice tray.
One day an unfamiliar car pulls up my long drive and out gets the boyfriend. For a second I consider getting my Glock. He knocks and I invite him in. I think to myself, either this guy is nuts or very courageous. He proceeds to ask for permission to marry my daughter. Have you ever been in a position where you know you are about to make a life changing decision and you had no time to prepare? I ask him how he plans to stay out of trouble. He gives me a well thought out response. It helped me make the right choice. I chose hope. I said everyone deserves a second chance and sometimes even a third. We shook hands and he went on his way.
My daughter and I have a very good relationship at the moment. I am thankful for making the right choice. But there are times when you have to go with your gut feeling and stand your ground. They will respect you better for it.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 1:32pm
I've been there. My daughter moved in with a guy from London, England after she graduated college. He was from a rough neighborhood, he knew how to fight and did often. Wasn't somebody I thought she should be with but she always was interested in danger. She jumped out of an airplane for her eighteenth birthday, likes to drive fast and is always tearing up her car that way. She got tired of him beating other guys up over her, living in a postage stamp apartment and eating beans and bread for dinner while he played online video games....the violent kind of course. So she packed up one weekend and came home for good.
I said fine, you are in my house, my rules. She did pretty good for a couple months and then all the sudden a new boyfriend. He'd been convicted of felony burglary and drug charges as a juvenile. I went freaking bizerk. Told her to dump him, banned him from the property under threat of shooting him and promised to toss her out on her ear if she saw him again.
Well, she started lying and seeing him. She's driving around in a car I bought her, sleeping in a warm house I paid for, and eating food I brought into the house. I figured I'll give her the ultimatum. Quit seeing him or get out. She claimed she quit so one day I checked it out for myself and found them together.
I tossed her out that night. Packed everything in the car and told her never to come back. She left. Nobody talked to her, not even her brothers. Put right in the ice tray.
One day an unfamiliar car pulls up my long drive and out gets the boyfriend. For a second I consider getting my Glock. He knocks and I invite him in. I think to myself, either this guy is nuts or very courageous. He proceeds to ask for permission to marry my daughter. Have you ever been in a position where you know you are about to make a life changing decision and you had no time to prepare? I ask him how he plans to stay out of trouble. He gives me a well thought out response. It helped me make the right choice. I chose hope. I said everyone deserves a second chance and sometimes even a third. We shook hands and he went on his way.
My daughter and I have a very good relationship at the moment. I am thankful for making the right choice. But there are times when you have to go with your gut feeling and stand your ground. They will respect you better for it.
Just a wild story...
Just a wild story...
I agree.
I chose hope.
Some say hope is misplaced optimism or an excuse to be passive, but I truly believe that hope touched by grace and good instincts changes lives in crazy ways.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 1:53pm
Some say hope is misplaced optimism or an excuse to be passive...
I usually say this. I also say: "Hope is prayer without god."
But it works for some people in some situations, so it seems.
There really is hope freshstart. My brother went through something similar yrs ago. He always wanted a boy and God laughed at him and gave him 3 beautiful blond Barbie doll girls. Needless to say boys were always after them. He is the typical nerd looking guy that had a high government position and was the last one you would think to have 3 daughters like he has. If you look up the word "wild" and "defiant" his girl's names would be listed. His wife was very abusive and would abuse the girls and him also. She once stabbed him with a screw driver and many other instances of abuse. He divorced her after 23 yrs but by then the girls were uncontrollable including many police scenes, one involving us when we were taking care of them. One of the girls ended up pregnant at 13 and wasn't sure if the baby would be Black, Puerto Rican or Caucasian. The nationality didn't matter, the fact that his 13 yr old had been with that many different men did matter. He had custody of them and what a Wild Toad and Mad Hatter ride that was. They would sneak out of their 2 story bedroom windows at 3 am and there was quite a few stories around town about them. He tried his best, and tried to make their life as normal as possible and got therapy for the ones who would accept it. Now, yrs later all 3 girls turned into incredible women who respect and love their dad and they all have kids of their own. They are all successful and you couldn't ask for nicer people than his 3 girls. But they would cuss him out, lie, sneak around and get themselves into dangerous positions including rape. We were so lucky with our one boy. He never gave us trouble. But we never wanted anymore just in case the next one would be the opposite of him....lol. We weren't taking any chances after seeing what other people had gone through with their kids.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 2:46pm
...and wasn't sure if the baby would be Black, Puerto Rican or Caucasian.
How did this turn out?
She turned out to be a gorgeous little half African American baby. Her mom is blond and blue eyes. And the daddy ended up in prison for statutory rape if I remember correctly. And he had no custody of her. My niece had her at the age of 14 and amazed all of us. She is an incredible mom. But boy oh boy what a time that was......which I will add left my brother with 4 girls in his home.....hahahha
Ultralight
4-11-16, 2:55pm
She turned out to be a gorgeous little half African American baby. Her mom is blond and blue eyes. And the daddy ended up in prison for statutory rape if I remember correctly. And he had no custody of her. My niece had her at the age of 14 and amazed all of us. She is an incredible mom. But boy oh boy what a time that was......which I will add left my brother with 4 girls in his home.....hahahha
Whoa... how does someone recover from this?
I usually say this. I also say: "Hope is prayer without god."
But it works for some people in some situations, so it seems.
I usually say "Hope is not a plan".
It was a decade of madness, I will say that. My brother is a real hero. Fortunately we were close by so we were able to help out when he would go on business trips. I always tell him I got my first gray hair at his house. I seriously have never dealt with such wild kids and I have worked with many children. They could do a lifetime movie on what they went through during all this. But they all survived and are all amazing people who I am proud to be related to now.
It baffles me that some teens are so disrepectful of their parents. I was lucky I guess as DD (other than sneaking out once or twice and wrecking my car) managed to become a kind and respectful adult.
I would be beside myself with sadness if mine spoke to me that way. And I would hope that they had the empathy to understand that their words and actions can and do hurt others. Maybe that takes a while to develop.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 3:05pm
I usually say "Hope is not a plan".
This tops my saying! I am stealing this one!
Ultralight
4-11-16, 3:07pm
It was a decade of madness, I will say that. My brother is a real hero. Fortunately we were close by so we were able to help out when he would go on business trips. I always tell him I got my first gray hair at his house. I seriously have never dealt with such wild kids and I have worked with many children. They could do a lifetime movie on what they went through during all this. But they all survived and are all amazing people who I am proud to be related to now.
So, tough question...
Now that these women are all adults and moving forward in life, how are their relationships with men? Their marriages?
It's encouraging to me to see the different people on here who's kids went through those crazy out of control years and it sounds like most of them ended up being respectful caring adults. I hope that is encouraging to freshstart also. I agree though, of withholding privileges when they are disrespectful, unkind and just plain old mean. I remember reading once you have to choose your battles. On something like what you are going through, I would definitely be taking away privileges and be cutting down on time spent with them. It doesn't sound like you are getting any support from their father so you are in a real difficult position.
freshstart
4-11-16, 3:15pm
UA, it really is that bad. DS and I have not recovered from the shoving me over to get to food incident, he comes around to see his grandparents and we have very few words for each other. He also had an unprovoked violent rage incident here around the time of the fridge thing. I had come home from a custody hearing for DD and as I was telling my mom about it, I was crying. IDK why he was even here, he flipped out when he saw me crying. Was throwing DR chairs, swiped a bunch of glassware off the countertop, ready to punch my dad, he got shoved out the door and he banged on it with his fists trying to break the glass. The police ended up coming and that scared him straight but he pretty much still hates me. I will occasionally text him that I love him and hope he is well. That is done now.
DD, I cannot even really believe we have reached this phase. I admit after DS at 15 decided he didn't like that we had rules so he moved in with his dad, I allowed myself to be a doormat. I knew my ex was reveling in this, all he ever wanted was primary custody so he wouldn't have to pay child support and to alienate them from me to try to devastate me. I was so scared DD would leave, too that I took crap from her I never would've tolerated before. Then she left, at the time it made sense, I was too sick to care for her but we had been so close I never dreamed she wouldn't come back or we would be where we are today.
Sunday I was devastated, I didn't think I could go on living without my kids. Today is a new day, I created monsters by letting them walk all over me, that is done for good. I am their mother and I deserve respect. I plan no contact with either of them until DD's bday on the 26th. I know this will put the final nail in the coffin, but I think I should return that Fit Bit, she will be totally done with me because she knows it's here, it was delivered while she was here. I think I have to go that harsh or she will never suffer any repercussions for the way she has behaved. You don't f-bomb and make fun of your mom and then come collect your birthday loot. It is going to be very hard for me to actually return that. Kind of like making that decision I am acknowledging there's no going back. If I do not give her that, I know she will decide to stop coming for visitation.
if my ex were a normal person, he would help me work on renewing these relationships, instead he revels in it. To him it's a zero sum game and he won in the last inning. So I have to toughen up and respect myself first because clearly no one important to me does. I'm putting my health first and the health of my parents. That my father has heard all the swearing and he has not put a kid's head through the wall is an absolute miracle, you don't mess with him, it is too stressful to make him watch their horrible behavior. My mother is broken hearted but she's on the same page as me.
a new day, a door is closing and whether it closes for good is totally up to them
To Ultralite Angler: A very tough question. They did go through a rough time because there was a whole lot of dysfunction in their family due to their mother. These girls went through a really crazy time, its amazing the way they turned out. Two of the girls had been raped, there were two teenage pregnancies (not from the rapes). And if you can believe it, they all stayed on the honor roll at school. Their dad made sure they were educated. They all are very successful in their careers and they all married really great guys and are very happy. And they all have very loved children. But I would say in their early 20's they hopped around quite a bit from guy to guy and then they all eventually settled down.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 3:22pm
UA, it really is that bad. DS and I have not recovered from the shoving me over to get to food incident, he comes around to see his grandparents and we have very few words for each other. He also had an unprovoked violent rage incident here around the time of the fridge thing. I had come home from a custody hearing for DD and as I was telling my mom about it, I was crying. IDK why he was even here, he flipped out when he saw me crying. Was throwing DR chairs, swiped a bunch of glassware off the countertop, ready to punch my dad, he got shoved out the door and he banged on it with his fists trying to break the glass. The police ended up coming and that scared him straight but he pretty much still hates me. I will occasionally text him that I love him and hope he is well. That is done now.
DD, I cannot even really believe we have reached this phase. I admit after DS at 15 decided he didn't like that we had rules so he moved in with his dad, I allowed myself to be a doormat. I knew my ex was reveling in this, all he ever wanted was primary custody so he wouldn't have to pay child support and to alienate them from me to try to devastate me. I was so scared DD would leave, too that I took crap from her I never would've tolerated before. Then she left, at the time it made sense, I was too sick to care for her but we had been so close I never dreamed she wouldn't come back or we would be where we are today.
Sunday I was devastated, I didn't think I could go on living without my kids. Today is a new day, I created monsters by letting them walk all over me, that is done for good. I am their mother and I deserve respect. I plan no contact with either of them until DD's bday on the 26th. I know this will put the final nail in the coffin, but I think I should return that Fit Bit, she will be totally done with me because she knows it's here, it was delivered while she was here. I think I have to go that harsh or she will never suffer any repercussions for the way she has behaved. You don't f-bomb and make fun of your mom and then come collect your birthday loot. It is going to be very hard for me to actually return that. Kind of like making that decision I am acknowledging there's no going back. If I do not give her that, I know she will decide to stop coming for visitation.
if my ex were a normal person, he would help me work on renewing these relationships, instead he revels in it. To him it's a zero sum game and he won in the last inning. So I have to toughen up and respect myself first because clearly no one important to me does. I'm putting my health first and the health of my parents. That my father has heard all the swearing and he has not put a kid's head through the wall is an absolute miracle, you don't mess with him, it is too stressful to make him watch their horrible behavior. My mother is broken hearted but she's on the same page as me.
a new day, a door is closing and whether it closes for good is totally up to them
I agree that you should return the fitbit.
But I mostly agree that you should now focus on your health and getting as better as you can. Maybe some day your kids will think things over and make amends. That is on them.
Will she really treat you any better if you decide to give her the FitBit? Probably not, so I'd return it and like others have said, focus on your health and wellness, physical and mental.
It's been my experience (raising 2 battling teen girls alone) that they do come back around. One of my daughters left me deeply bruised on the upper body once-- when I was trying to stop her from leaving at night-- and was almost arrested for it. The other didn't speak to me for a year because I called her to pick up her child who was crying inconsolably (hysterically) for her and would not let me touch him to comfort him (he had a damn splinter). But now they are both mature and good friends with me and treat me respectfully.
Ultralight
4-11-16, 3:40pm
To Ultralite Angler: A very tough question. They did go through a rough time because there was a whole lot of dysfunction in their family due to their mother. These girls went through a really crazy time, its amazing the way they turned out. Two of the girls had been raped, there were two teenage pregnancies (not from the rapes). And if you can believe it, they all stayed on the honor roll at school. Their dad made sure they were educated. They all are very successful in their careers and they all married really great guys and are very happy. And they all have very loved children. But I would say in their early 20's they hopped around quite a bit from guy to guy and then they all eventually settled down.
It amazes me how resilient some people are.
I just don't have it in me.
So I commend them on being able to bounce back.
It is impressive that they were able to go on and have good husbands. From what I understand it can be very, very difficult for a white single mom with a half-black kid to get married, let alone to a decent guy.
I'd say that is evidence of some long-standing racism in American culture.
The step dad and the daughter have had a difficult relationship, but I don't think it had anything to do with her race. She is extremely popular and a really sweet young lady. Because her mom was so young at the time she had her it was almost like she was a big sister to her. They are very very close. With all that my brother has went through with his "4 girls" and his ex wife he has said it was much easier when he served in Viet Nam than it was living through the family turmoil. I really don't know how they all turned out o.k. It really is a incredible, especially since what I posted here is only the tip of the iceberg.
I really hope for freshstart that her kids will see what they are doing and will turn around and see what a wonderful mom they have before they do permanent damage.
iris lilies
4-11-16, 4:13pm
re: returning the FitBit gift
While I see nothing wrong with returning it, and I mean that, another point of view is this:
You and your mom bought this gift before daughter's last act of hurtfulness. Why don't you tell her that? I can just hear my own (good!) mom saying something like this: We bought this for you at a different time while we felt more generous toward you. Now, we still want you to have it, but its unlikely further gifts like this (meaning--nice ones!) will be forthcoming from us until your hurtful actions stop. I really don't like buying gifts for someone I do not feel giving toward.
I may be driving at a related point: are gifts tied to how one behaves? Well, yeah, to some extent.
Freshstart, I don't have any advice to add that hasn't already been said. But I do agree with the advice to return the Fitbit. This has been such a sad thread to read. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this on top of all your health issues. Hopefully one day your kids will realize how awful they have been and come to offer apologies.
freshstart
4-11-16, 4:25pm
thank you, all of you. your stories give me hope
Iris lilies, that is a good point on the Fit Bit. I'm gonna hide it and think about it and see how things play out.
freshstart
4-11-16, 4:29pm
His wife was very abusive and would abuse the girls and him also. She once stabbed him with a screw driver and many other instances of abuse. He divorced her after 23 yrs but by then the girls were uncontrollable including many police scenes, one involving us when we were taking care of them. One of the girls ended up pregnant at 13 and wasn't sure if the baby would be Black, Puerto Rican or Caucasian. The nationality didn't matter, the fact that his 13 yr old had been with that many different men did matter. He had custody of them and what a Wild Toad and Mad Hatter ride that was. They would sneak out of their 2 story bedroom windows at 3 am and there was quite a few stories around town about them. He tried his best, and tried to make their life as normal as possible and got therapy for the ones who would accept it. Now, yrs later all 3 girls turned into incredible women who respect and love their dad and they all have kids of their own. They are all successful and you couldn't ask for nicer people than his 3 girls. But they would cuss him out, lie, sneak around and get themselves into dangerous positions including rape. We were so lucky with our one boy. He never gave us trouble. But we never wanted anymore just in case the next one would be the opposite of him....lol. We weren't taking any chances after seeing what other people had gone through with their kids.
I think who you choose to parent with is so important, I'm sure your brother didn't expect to have an abusive wife. I would've been better off if Bob had bailed as just a sperm donor. Sometimes having two parents is not the ideal. I commend the job your brother did, God love him.
iris lilies
4-11-16, 4:31pm
thank you, all of you. your stories give me hope
Iris lilies, that is a good point on the Fit Bit. I'm gonna hide it and think about it and see how things play out.
I think what I'm trying to get at is this: gifts come about due to the feelings of the giver. The lesson your daughter needs is not that she was bad and therefore is being punished by no gifts, the lesson is that she hurt the feelings of those giving gifts, and the consequences of that is no gifts.
They are similar lessons but subtly different. She probably will "get" the lesson, anyway, even though she won't admit it to you.
freshstart
4-11-16, 4:53pm
you are a wise woman, I wouldn't even have thought of that angle, I was too angry to get there
re: returning the FitBit gift
While I see nothing wrong with returning it, and I mean that, another point of view is this:
You and your mom bought this gift before daughter's last act of hurtfulness. Why don't you tell her that? I can just hear my own (good!) mom saying something like this: We bought this for you at a different time while we felt more generous toward you. Now, we still want you to have it, but its unlikely further gifts like this (meaning--nice ones!) will be forthcoming from us until your hurtful actions stop. I really don't like buying gifts for someone I do not feel giving toward.
I would agree with this far more than simply returning the Fitbit. All that adds is fuel to the fire. Gifts are the choice of the giver. She has seen this gift, so give the gift adding IL's words because you feel that way. No car though.
Your situation reminded me of my brother's which is why I posted something. I think there is nothing that can quite rip out your heart like your kids. And to have an ex partner throw up roadblocks the whole way and contribute to the animosity makes it doubly hard. My brother is like the Rock of Gibraltar, very strong, but I remember him standing on my porch crying because of his girls. I had never seen that before and it shook me deeply. My heart and prayers are with you freshstart. I know it is a long hard road for you.
The judge ordered joint counseling for DD and me. We went twice and the counselor refused to follow the judge's order and said I can only come in when DD invites me. I can't even get an answer to if she is still going, although I highly doubt it. DS has been in therapy for years. So they have had the opportunity to discuss her feelings about me getting sick. They only seem to care as far as it affects them.
For what it is worth, I don't know that a counselor has to follow the judge's order as the counselor is not party to the case. The judge can only order parties to attend. As to only caring as far as it affects them, at your kids' ages that might be about developmental right:-) Certainly no excuse for the poor behavior and language.
Consider giving her the gift. Telling her you love her. And let her know you believe the two of you will come out on the other side of this. They both seem too young to be written off, especially considering that they have been involved (immeshed?) in a high conflict separation.
Ultralight
4-12-16, 7:26am
I highly advise against doing the same thing you'd always do. It will only give you the same results -- ones you are clearly not happy with.
Hugs to you Freshstart, so sorry you are going through this crap. When my daughter's 14th birthday rolled around, I declined to give her a gift as well. We had some horrible, rocky teenage years that included severe drug abuse, running away, truancy, threats (to me), mental illness (bi-polar for her), many, many hospitalizations (mental and physical; she was so sick with drugs and not taking care of herself she got some horrible infections that required hospitalizations). At one point I had to kick her out of my house and she went to live with her dad (who was also mentally ill) and living in a crappy, unsafe place that wasn't fit for a teen age girl to live in. I still feel guilty about that in a way, but I also know that had I let her stay, terrible things may have happened here. But I made sure she always knew that I would be there for her when she was ready to make the decision to help herself get well again.
Fast forward to now - it's been a long road for her, but she has been in a recovery program for the past few years, has been working and going to school. Turns out the kid is a math and science whiz, and is working toward transferring to the University of Michigan with some sort of science degree. I never, EVER thought anything like this would happen, and I am so grateful for the way things have turned out. But are we close now? No, not really, but she knows I am always here for her. I had to let her go emotionally a long time ago; that was the only way I survived the trauma of knowing my kid was one shot away from an overdose at any given time. And yes, having had to let her go in that way has affected me deeply to this day - it shows up in lots of different ways, but the best way I can explain it is that it feels like something broke inside me that I don't know that I'll ever get back.
I am amazed at how much she has matured in just the last three years. She's 23 now, and is taking care of all her business, just like an adult. Because I had to let her go, she had to learn to stand on her own two feet and take care of herself. She still has her struggles, but she is doing it. I'll never forget the day last year or so that she asked me for advice on budgeting and dealing with money, because she saw how hard I worked to make a nice life for us when I was raising her as a single parent! Made me proud, and she really listened to me :) Come to find out she is a chip off the old block when it comes to frugality and saving.
Anyway, I hope my little story helps you in some small way with your situation. I think there is always hope, always a light at the end of the tunnel. But for now, if you've had enough of that crap, I would stand your ground and not allow her to treat you that way any more, but somehow let her know that you will always be there for her when she is ready to become a reasonable adult. Hang in there, you got a lot of love and support from us here.
Ultralight
4-12-16, 9:17am
Because I had to let her go, she had to learn to stand on her own two feet and take care of herself.
:+1:
Ultralight
4-12-16, 9:19am
As I read this I think:
1. Having kids is a real gamble. They can turn out fine sometimes, with few issues. But many times they can turn out so bad they permanently screw you up and wreck your life for years or decades or for life.
2. I hope I never have kids. Too risky.
I think what I'm trying to get at is this: gifts come about due to the feelings of the giver.
One other consideration is that fs is not giving the FitBit to her daughter by herself -- she went in on it with her (fs's) mother. Grandma has her own relationship with not-so-dear daughter and should have some say in the outcome of this situation. I agree totally with iris lilies' point, but just want to note there is another vote yet to be cast in this matter.
As I read this I think:
1. Having kids is a real gamble. They can turn out fine sometimes, with few issues. But many times they can turn out so bad they permanently screw you up and wreck your life for years or decades or for life.
2. I hope I never have kids. Too risky.
It is, I think, like so many other things in life: risk versus reward. Yeah, kids can turn out much differently than you imagined or worked to have. But, similarly, most of us drive cars despite the fact that doing so can kill us, sometimes through no fault of our own. Swimmers can drown, firefighters can be severely injured or killed in a fire, .... Yet people engage in these pursuits out of whatever urges them to do it and in spite of the worst possible outcome.
Again, I'm not a parent, largely because I feared too much being a single parent (despite being married). The risk seemed far too great in that situation. With DW I'm now getting a taste of parenthood with our granddaughter and I'm feeling I missed out on not being a dad. I want to be around to see this kid grow up. Granted, I'm not the primary caregiver -- but we're supporting her mom and dad as much as we're supporting her. It's an awesome responsibility -- but it can come with an awesome reward.
Ultralight
4-12-16, 9:33am
Yeah, kids can turn out much differently than you imagined or worked to have.
I am keenly aware that I am nothing like what my parents wanted me to be. And I can often see the disappointment in their eyes when we interact. I can hear it in their tone of voice. And I have never had a substance abuse problem. My run-ins with the law were unremarkable when I was a juvenile and matters of conscience when I was an adult (civil disobedience). I went to college and grad school without any help from them. I have a steady job. So the problems they got from me were largely ones of preference. They would have preferred I lived a more normative life.
But, similarly, most of us drive cars despite the fact that doing so can kill us...
I know. I do this but I don't like it! haha
freshstart
4-12-16, 10:36am
Anyway, I hope my little story helps you in some small way with your situation. I think there is always hope, always a light at the end of the tunnel. But for now, if you've had enough of that crap, I would stand your ground and not allow her to treat you that way any more, but somehow let her know that you will always be there for her when she is ready to become a reasonable adult. Hang in there, you got a lot of love and support from us here.
your story of DD is inspiring, you really never know how things will turn out. I know what you mean about feeling like something broke inside you, I have that with DS, he self-identified with his dad so I am the enemy, you have to let it go at some point but something definitely broke inside me with him. I do get wonderful support here and I value your opinions, they differ and they are well thought out giving me other ways to look at a situation that I hadn't thought of.
Reyes, I will never write them totally off. But I have been chasing them with unanswered texts, ignored invitations, trying to buy their affection, letting them verbally abuse me. So I am standing still now, I'm not telling them I am not going to contact them for a while, I'm just stopping running around like a puppy dog begging to be loved. That has been a ginormous failure but I will always, always be there if they need me.
Gardenarian
4-12-16, 9:33pm
(((hugs))) FS
I'm so sorry you are having your kids dump on you, in addition to your illness.
I think you are right to limit contact with them at this time; it's not healthy for any of you. You say this has been a ginormous failure, but I hope you don't feel it's YOUR failure. You have had more bad luck than anyone should have in a lifetime.
Here's a book recommendation: "Ten Things to do When You Life Falls Apart" by Daphne Rose Kingma. It was helpful to me in hard times.
I divorced a narcissist, whew. Sometimes just getting out with my mental health is my biggest accomplishment. Sometimes my kids seemed to be really damaged by this, other times they are doing great. But I have had to let go of feeling responsible for everything back to my first date with ex! It was very healing to realize I could hold people responsible for their actions with compassion. Compassion is almost selfish, it helps you feel better, but sometimes we need boundaries that are brick walls! With my ex I had it written in our divorce that he could not see me without a 3rd party present (put in by a counselor), and it took 10 years before I was comfortable. But I was able to not hate him long before that.
I also love Pema Chodron if you are open to a Buddhist perspective, she is really great and you don't have to agree with any Buddhist stuff to read her really.
freshstart
4-13-16, 11:33am
thanks, guys. I will look into those books, I could really use them!
freshstart
4-13-16, 3:24pm
(((hugs))) FS
I'm so sorry you are having your kids dump on you, in addition to your illness.
I think you are right to limit contact with them at this time; it's not healthy for any of you. You say this has been a ginormous failure, but I hope you don't feel it's YOUR failure.
it's hard to admit, but the problem is I totally feel like it is my failure. Thank God for my shrink
it's hard to admit, but the problem is I totally feel like it is my failure. Thank God for my shrink
Not likely it is all on your shoulders:-) Go easy on yourself. Sometime it can help to write a reality chart. What part of this (the big "this") is on your, what is more on your kids, and what was/is in neither of your control? Take responsibility for those under your name, forgive for those under your kids' names, and for the rest, have a big bowl of chocolate ice cream:-)
A friend once told me if we are looking to our teenagers to boost our self esteem, we might as well hit our head against a brick wall.
It will get better. Kids mature, they come around. Keep walking the high road. And take care of yourself. You'll be well on the other side of this.
freshstart
4-14-16, 6:16pm
thank you, Reyes, that is good advice, especially the ice cream
I am keenly aware that I am nothing like what my parents wanted me to be. And I can often see the disappointment in their eyes when we interact. I can hear it in their tone of voice. And I have never had a substance abuse problem. My run-ins with the law were unremarkable when I was a juvenile and matters of conscience when I was an adult (civil disobedience). I went to college and grad school without any help from them. I have a steady job. So the problems they got from me were largely ones of preference. They would have preferred I lived a more normative life.
This is just heartbreaking to me. I've heard way too many IRL friends and acquaintances on places like this board tell stories of parent disappointment at how they didn't turn out exactly as parent(s) desired and I don't know what to say. One friend grew up in a family where the mother was a school secretary and the father worked in a union factory. The fact that my friend wanted to go to college and move away from their white-bread, working class suburb of a large midwestern city instead of get a job as a checker at the local grocery store, get married and start popping out kids utterly baffled them. And the parents were clear in letting my friend know what their expectations were.
Thankfully my parents never did this. Mostly I was just steered towards getting a college degree and hopefully a job that utilized it, but beyond that they never made known any preferences. I don't know for sure, but this may be because I was the good kid who didn't stir the pot. (Unlike my older sister who insisted on rubbing it in my parents' faces when she chose to be the rebelious teenager).
The only time I ever was made aware that I had turned out different from what my parents expected was when I was about 30 years old and visiting them. My dad and I were entering their condo building and ran into a neighbor friend of his. I don't remember any of the rest of the conversation but I very much remember him saying something along the lines of "you can't control how your kids turn out, it may not be what you ever expected, but as long as they're happy and not hurting themselves i suppose it's all good." At this point I had been out to my parents for several years but had never really had an in depth conversation about it with them, never brought home a BF, etc. Up to that point it had never occurred to me that they might have had expectations for what I would do with my life. I can't imagine how I would've dealt with it if they'd routinely expressed disappointment.
This thread has baffled me in ways. My/our children were born by choice. I truly believe that I was to care for, guide them, guard them and support them to be all that they wanted to be to the best of my ability.
Each evening, I would review what happened through the day, often discussing with DH the challenges, discoveries and how they were handled. It was challenging, fun, frustrating but I wouldn't have missed a minute of it all. DH was a wonderful human being who loved being a dad in every sense of the word.
When they were ready to move to more responsibility, DH and I discussed with them how to handle it. We loved them unconditionally and they knew this.
Did they make mistakes? Yes but so did we. I look at my kids now and think they are wonderful human beings and a joy. It is baffling to me to ever consider them otherwise. I wish that all parents had the same experience.
Ultralight
4-15-16, 7:48am
This thread has baffled me in ways. My/our children were born by choice. I truly believe that I was to care for, guide them, guard them and support them to be all that they wanted to be to the best of my ability.
Each evening, I would review what happened through the day, often discussing with DH the challenges, discoveries and how they were handled. It was challenging, fun, frustrating but I wouldn't have missed a minute of it all. DH was a wonderful human being who loved being a dad in every sense of the word.
When they were ready to move to more responsibility, DH and I discussed with them how to handle it. We loved them unconditionally and they knew this.
Did they make mistakes? Yes but so did we. I look at my kids now and think they are wonderful human beings and a joy. It is baffling to me to ever consider them otherwise. I wish that all parents had the same experience.
Typical Canadian response. ;)
Typical Canadian response. ;)It baffles me too.
freshstart
4-15-16, 2:04pm
Why? Because I am stepping back from very bad behavior? I still love and want them and they know they always have a safe place to land no matter what. Of course my children were a choice and I set out to raise them with loving guidance and I did just that. How lucky that you had a loving DH to assist you in the process. My mistake was not in how I raised my children but with whom I chose to do so. It is not so easy when there is a force diametrically opposed to you working against you in every way. Are my children being a joy right now? No, and I have yet to meet a parent who has not gone through at least a short period when their children did not fill their hearts with joy every second of every day. That does not mean I don't love them with every fiber of my being. If you are such lucky parents, well good for you.
Sorry, Freshstart, that was not intended to hurt you or criticize your actions in facing the difficult challenges of the present. I should have seen the possibility of a different view of my post.
I was responding to the rhetorical question of why some parents see their kids as not living up to their expectations. These kids are now adults and still feeling that they have failed to meet their parents' expectations. That is the baffling part. Maybe, I simply had no clear expectations that they had to meet. I don't remember feeling that I had expectations of my parents that I had to meet beyond trying to do the best that I could in whatever I chose to do. There were definite times when I did things with which they disagreed. I was comfortable living with the consequences of my choice, I suppose.
freshstart
4-15-16, 2:22pm
I understand now what you are saying.
As to having written them off, I did for about, what, a week? First week of their lives I did not make contact with them. Yesterday, my mother landed back in the hospital. Of course, I told them but neither would pick up and I wouldn't leave that info in a voicemail. I ended up texting them and I'm hoping the stress and worry about her will remind us that we all love each other and that we come together when the rubber hits the road. IDK, it remains to be seen if misfortune in the family can unexpectedly help healing.
freshstart
4-15-16, 4:17pm
DS just showed up with a bunch of friends to take the dogs to the dog park. Of course, in front of them he is polite and asked about his grandmother and plans to go see her. DD called and asked how she is, she did let me know that she has a commitment with her volunteer work Sunday so she will not be coming over but she is not pulling the plug on visitation. So a better day than we've had in a long time. Holding them at arm's length may be key for a while.
The person who cares less has the power in the relationship.
The person who cares less has the power in the relationship.
Very True, I realized that early in my divorce and it was brutal to see it play out but somehow it saved my sanity at times.
freshstart
4-16-16, 12:17pm
yup, this is true and begging for time together only gives them more power. Learning to care less is not easy though
Teacher Terry
4-16-16, 2:34pm
2 of my sons turned out fine and one not so much. They were all raised the same, etc. I used to beat myself up over it but not anymore. We can't control everything. Time can heal many wounds and I would think that with distance they will miss you and eventually come around but it will take patience on your part.
So sorry about what you are going through. The bottom line is that need to do what is best for you and your health and that seems to be distancing yourself. Send a card for your daughter on her birthday but otherwise let her make the next move. You don't have to be abused by them or anyone else. Your son sounds dangerous, I hate to say but that doesn't always get better and may have little to do with your situation. My stepson is 43 and still scares me. :(
this will not be a popular statement but they need their rear ends busted. If they have no respect for you, they have no respect for others and will run into situations where their attitudes will not be tolerated. Seriously, take care of yourself, they are probably too old to bust.
iris lilies
4-22-16, 12:10pm
this will not be a popular statement but they need their rear ends busted. If they have no respect for you, they have no respect for others and will run into situations where their attitudes will not be tolerated. Seriously, take care of yourself, they are probably too old to bust.
from what the OP says, these kids are doing pretty well out there in society in working, going to school, etc. and if they are not, other adults will show them pretty quickly that they are not special snowflakes but are just another self entitled young adult who wont get what they think they deserve.
I can't figure out how one would "bust the butt" of an adult son and a near adult daughter at this stage in their life.
The OP setting and maintaining boundaries for herself, thats another matter and is a good thing.
freshstart
4-22-16, 12:43pm
thanks, iris lilies, I would've tried to say that and failed.
Williamsmith
4-22-16, 11:34pm
Wow, just amazing how long this thread has remained relevant. I was hoping it would fade away. But I will have to meet head on my own skeletons. I imagine if my sense of how applicable this is to all parents is correct......a few others here are doing the same.
I can't break out specifics, it's hard for me to admit certain things but as a teen, I wasn't a perfect peach. I hadn't figured anything out yet. Much confusion, lots of influential characters pulling me in different directions and an underdeveloped sense of self.
I'd like to describe the "Leave It to Beaver" home I grew up in but truth is it was nothing like that. It was rough and tumble and later in life I gave it right back to both my parents. I said things I could never take back, I burned bridges and I did things to them only a parent could forgive.
I travelled in circles for awhile. Lost without a compass. Tossed by waves of experimentation. I am sure my parents grieved for me but at the time I had no capacity to deal with anything outside my own self centeredness.
What changed me was a very serious illness which kept me bedridden for three months. Those three months turned out to be the most important three months of my life. Time I found myself, and got direction.
When I came out the other side, I finished school, got a job, married, got a career, had kids, raised them and made a difference to a few people. Maybe my ability to empathize made me a better law enforcement officer.....maybe it was how much I saw myself in others at their worst but I could see we all have timetables. And you can't force people to mature anymore than you can force paper through a cheap shredder.
I was with my father when he died and I grieved about it deeply. I have a loving relationship with my 83 year old mother. Our phone conversations end with, "I love you." Every single time.......as if to make up for past transgressions.
Im not saying everything will work out for sure. I'm just saying, being their mother is more than enough. It's all they need. Just someone special to come back to.
freshstart
4-23-16, 9:11am
that was so insightful it made me cry, thank you for sharing that
I have shared that I grew up in an abusive home, my father violent, my mother wringing her hands not even trying to stop it. But not all of my childhood was bad. Then in the 90s my dad went on an anti-depressant for pain and was literally a changed man. The rage is gone and has stayed gone for 25 years. He skips his pills for a few days and the old him is right back. If only all family violence could be cured with a pill. After my father proved for a few years that he was this new father, I forgave him for the past. It still affected me but I forgave him. He was raised in extreme poverty and abuse, he had no idea how to be a good dad and he harbored a dangerous rage inside him. Once in a blue moon, people DO change, even if it's better living through chemistry. We talk a little about the past but mostly I enjoy as a dad I never thought I would have. I love him and because we've had so much forced time together driving me to MD appts since 2014, I consider him a friend. I don't love him because I have to love him, I don't have that sense of obligation, I love him because I really do.
My brother is a whole 'nother matter. He hates my dad and it has consumed his life. He is a good, smart, funny, loyal man outwardly. Inside he is a depressed, rage filled man who has let the past define his life. He is close to my mother (I had a very hard time dealing with the fact she never stopped my dad or got us out of our living situation) but even though my father has apologized (not an easy conversation to have) and proven for over 20 yrs that he is different man, my brother still hates him. And his therapist labeled me as my brother's "trigger person" so it is very hard for him to be loving towards me because I remind him of his past. I have tried hard to forge a relationship with him, he knows me better than anyone on earth and we share many commonalities but inevitably when he is home or I visit him, the rage comes out and he is as scary as my father. I don't think he will ever change, he won't commit to therapy and meds. My shrink got him into one of the world's top psychiatrists at Harvard, he could go for a $30 co-pay. When she felt uncomfortable changing his meds and asked him to do one visit with a psycho-pharmacologist, he just never went back. It is very sad and such a waste.
I just keep the hope that if relative peace could come to my screwed up family of origin, it will one day come to my own
ToomuchStuff
4-23-16, 9:58am
I remember the shock and laughter, when my 70 (at the time, long passed), grandmother, said to my mom, I can still get a switch. I remember them arguing over paying for something (mom wanted to buy it, so did grandma).
I also remember the last time I was spanked, as I grabbed hold of the belt and wouldn't let go. I also mentioned calling the cops or taking it further, which would have been much worse (never taught to "fight", taught fighting is only to kill, due to fear of a relative). If you fear a relative is a pedo, tell the kid, don't make it worse and make them think much worse (told to think about the worse person I knew when I was a kid, that person cut up their victims).
It was years later when I heard about my grandfather being horsewhipped, due to the evil in him (child of rape, failed self abortion attempt), and being told by a relative, on their deathbed how much I reminded them of the rapist and the other relative we feared (also a rapist), and understood where the anger and violence in the family, at least partially originated from.
Because of my fear of me becoming violent, and the years I spent wondering if today was the day I needed to go walk the tracks, I tried to turn to humor more.
Speaking of humor, Williamsmiths, post makes me think of how John Cleese and his mom were; (language warning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgkr4L6HVGE
That John Cleese bit was brilliant. It reminds me of phone conversations with my mother. Once, after we had chatted for a time, she asked "Is something the matter? You sound a little down." and I replied "I was fine earlier." And I had been. There was a subterranean stream of negativity and depression and sadness there that wore me down, though she had much to be thankful for, including a devoted spouse. I can't blame her too much; depression runs deep on that side of the family, and it can be hard to fight.
freshstart
4-30-16, 2:09pm
I tried showing this bit to my son who has had to deal with a depressed mother since he was born (major depression that started after my first child birth). He and I have dark humor but he didn't find this funny. Oh well.
He is here today, making a chair. Way too busy to talk to me, of course. I did find out that at the 6 mos luthier school program in Phoenix, he won't be in an apt all alone, where he was planning on having a mattress and kitchen stuff only. So this is good news. He also planned to come back here and do business at the local comm college. Now he says he isn't coming back. I know he is an adult and he was only going to be gone 6 mos, where most kids come and go for 4 yrs. but it was like being sucker punched. I had felt like even if our relationship had not improved by the time he left, I would have time when he got back. He's going to leave on bad terms and that's it, he's gone. I don't know how to fix this, or I guess I have to accept that I cannot.
He ended up getting back child support from SSDI. I didn't know if he knew he had to go down and apply for it, so I told him about it. He was so rude, said he got the money, used it to pay for luthier school and never wants to speak of it again. WTH? Then today he was ragging on me for not having a job. I asked him what sort of job can I do that does not require standing and good short term memory, where they are tolerant of falls and math mistakes, etc. And then I said I do not have to justify to you the ways in which I am unwell and not able to work at this point in time. You have seen everything and you are just being mean to be mean. See ya and walked away.
It burns me up because I was a hard worker from the day I started mowing lawns at 12 until I stopped working after 33 years of some type of work. I was never lazy, never. With depression, I was tired after work but those kids lacked for nothing. So we ate a lot of convenience meals and rotisserie chickens, boo hoo, burn me at the stake for falling down on the motherhood job. You know what, eff that. They make me so angry and devastated at the same time.
Teacher Terry
4-30-16, 2:27pm
So sorry FS. I really hope it turns around later.
Has he ever opened up to you about what it was like for him to be raised by someone with depression? I wonder if he views some of your current ills as part of the depression? That maybe we can't see them as separate things so his frustration with your current illness is wrapped up with the frustration of his childhood experiences of your depression?
Has he ever opened up to you about what it was like for him to be raised by someone with depression? I wonder if he views some of your current ills as part of the depression? That maybe we can't see them as separate things so his frustration with your current illness is wrapped up with the frustration of his childhood experiences of your depression?
It's been very hard to talk to them about depression. When they were younger, I read them books about it. But going on on the other side was a father who despite being a medical professional, does not "believe" in depression so he has fed their minds with I am just a lazy, worthless person. DS and I went to counseling at 15 but made very little headway, he did tell me his dad said I "abandoned" him and he agreed. We never could get past that. That he feels that way breaks my heart because every single thing I did, I did it for them. I tried so hard to overcome it and not have them see it. I had plenty of help from loving family members during bad times. Frankly, I think rather than ever discuss it, he has aligned himself with his dad and I will never get a fair shot. It was a zero sum game with my ex, he wanted them to not love me. Sick and they will end up with issues as adults.
Freshstart, life happens and we all, as did you, cope as best we can doing the best we can. That is all that is possible. I learned to understand things about my parents that made no sense at the earlier age in the same way that we all learn to understand stuff that we never understood earlier. Your children will as well. Some things take years to be understood, Take care of yourself now. That is your priority. Surround yourself as much as possible with support and love.
Gardenarian
5-1-16, 9:31pm
Probably best to keep communications to the occasional upbeat text at this point.
DD and I have gone through brief periods of almost complete withdrawal, then one day we'll be in the car and she'll just start chatting away.
I know this sounds so ageist, but teens are kind of like feral creatures; you have to wait for them to approach.
Don't worry too much about what they think about you; they should be worried about what you think of them. As long as they know you love them, let it go.
this is all good advice, thx
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