Apartment...

[Ultralight]

I am looking at the apartment I will most likely get today.

$860 a month for a tiny, one bedroom place about a mile from my work.

I have to pay water and I think one other utility. Cable/Internets are included. Dog rent ($30 a month) is already factored in.

The place is a sublease for 4 months with possibility to renew.

I have mixed feelings...

[mschrisgo2]

Ok, I'll bite. Well?

[Ultralight]

Now it is a 15 month lease. :(

[Tammy]

I love long leases. It's insurance against a rent increase for that whole time. I always go for the longest lease terms available. After owning numerous houses with 30 year mortgages, lease terms are very short.

[ApatheticNoMore]

it depends. if you hope to move for a different job or something like that then it's not good (as you'll be stuck with the commute as you signed the lease), but if you plan to stay put it can be. What are the mixed feelings about? The price? Yea geez rents are high all over if it's so expensive to live in Ohio (oh I know it's expensive here, but rents have simply gone bonkers everywhere I guess). If what you have mixed feelings about is not liking the place then I say don't go with it, expensive can be accepted but a place you hate, not so much so.

[Williamsmith]

Two advantages. You can easily walk the mile to work. Minus the car you save and minimize exposure to costly repairs, and eliminate costly insurance. And your discretionary income will probably decrease which should also decrease your income based student loan monthly payment which could offset any increase in housing costs you incur. And finally, if you do develop a new relationship, you can halve the costs if they move in with you.

[Miss Cellane]

Interesting that cable and internet are included in the rent, but water and other utilities are not. That's the reverse of every apartment I've ever had--I've paid for electricity, and gas, and oil, but never water, and always paid for my own cable and internet.

Why are your feelings mixed?

[jp1]

Interesting that cable and internet are included in the rent, but water and other utilities are not. That's the reverse of every apartment I've ever had--I've paid for electricity, and gas, and oil, but never water, and always paid for my own cable and internet.


I assumed this was a result of it being a sublet and the tenant not wanting to turn off the cable/internets.

Personally I hate looking at apartments. The reality is that almost all look awful when empty. But I've been happy with every place I've ever lived. Each has had its quirks and annoyances, but they've all been an important part of my life with lots of happy memories. As an introvert I need a place where I can go to when I need to get away from the world. None has let me down because really, once I'm moved in it feels like "mine". Our current place is by far the most expensive, but also the nicest. And I hope it's the last that we rent. I actually DID like it when we viewed it. I still like it today, 6 years later, but not really any more than anywhere else I've lived.

[Ultralight]

The cost is like $860 a month.

This is not sustainable.

Last night I was thinking about this. I need to find a life partner -- not just for love, romance, or the companionship but for plain old financial reasons.

This realization has dramatically changed my thoughts about life partnership.

[Williamsmith]

I have always been convinced that many life partnerships are as much about finances as they are about love. The Amish taught me this also.

I observed an Amish logger with two draft horses pulling eight to ten foot logs out of a wooded lot, through a muddy field and onto a landing zone by a dirt roadway. I asked why I always saw pairs of horses being used, and not just a single or triplets. He said two horses can pull three times the weight of one horse. Three horses is just too complicated for harnessing. Best bang for your buck.

[Ultralight]

I have always been convinced that many life partnerships are as much about finances as they are about love.

I am a difficult man to love. Most women I have dated have called me "exhausting" -- including my most recent GF with whom I went to Splitsville about a month or so ago.

I have been told: "Being in a relationship with you is like joining a cult."

I kind of laugh and cry about this.

But... the issue is that I simply cannot afford to live alone. So I may have to modify my behavior/thinking in several ways, which is about as easy as me pushing a mountain across a continent.

[lessisbest]

I guess it's time to find additional work to supplement your income - what a unique concept. Hubby worked 4 part-time jobs while he was taking 22-credit hours getting a degree in architecture, and in the summer worked one fulltime and 2 part time jobs, and I worked 2 jobs (one fulltime and one part-time) and we also had one child to support. And that's also why we didn't have a huge amount of student load debt - we worked.

I would also find a new home for your dog, since it is an unnecessary expense. I know that seems harsh, but it's the same reason we don't own pets. If I want a pet I can go next door and take their two (much neglected) dogs for a walk, have them over for a romp in the yard, and like grandchildren, take them back after having all the fun and none of the expense.

I would also go over that budget again and see if there are any other money "leaks" that need filling. Any free time should be spent trying to figure out how you can increase your income, or make improvements to get a higher-paying job. Without knowing every aspect of your life, these are generalities off the top of my head.

[Ultralight]

I guess it's time to find additional work to supplement your income - what a unique concept. Hubby worked 4 part-time jobs while he was taking 22-credit hours getting a degree in architecture, and in the summer worked one fulltime and 2 part time jobs, and I worked 2 jobs (one fulltime and one part-time) and we also had one child to support. And that's also why we didn't have a huge amount of student load debt - we worked.

1. Why didn't you give your child up for adoption? Kids cost way more than dogs.

2. All that time working...? No thanks. I'd rather eat rice and beans and have some free time. If I live to be old I don't want to look back and be like: "I gave my whole life to a job I did not even like. I could have tightened my belt and perhaps spent time with friends, my dog, or doing things I love -- like fishing."



I would also find a new home for your dog, since it is an unnecessary expense. I know that seems harsh, but it's the same reason we don't own pets. If I want a pet I can go next door and take their two (much neglected) dogs for a walk, have them over for a romp in the yard, and like grandchildren, take them back after having all the fun and none of the expense.

1. I am keeping my dog.

2. Happy Friday to you too!


I would also go over that budget again and see if there are any other money "leaks" that need filling. Any free time should be spent trying to figure out how you can increase your income, or make improvements to get a higher-paying job. Without knowing every aspect of your life, these are generalities off the top of my head.

[JaneV2.0]

I used to drive through upscale neighborhoods and think something like "with an income-producing partner, I could have a much nicer house." :D But it really never seemed worth it. Now I want a smaller house and I've really never been about basing my relationships on economics, and I'm glad about that.

Maybe you'll get lucky some day and find a wannabe cultist who doesn't mind being there to supply sex and rent money. Sounds kind of grim.

I wouldn't even consider getting rid of your dog. If life is all about money, IMO, it's not worth living.

[Teacher Terry]

Whenever people say get rid of your dog my head feels like it is going to explode. I knew you wouldn't even consider it UL. I would live in my RV before I would give up my 4 dogs. I would give up every single material possession I have before my pets would go. Things are just things and they are living, loving beings. Pets are for life just like kids except they don't live as long:)) I have worked in dog rescue for years and it is that kind of thinking that does not make people take pet ownership seriously. How about renting a studio so it would be cheaper? If life was just about $ it would not be worth living.

[Ultralight]

Whenever people say get rid of your dog my head feels like it is going to explode. I knew you wouldn't even consider it UL. I would live in my RV before I would give up my 4 dogs. I would give up every single material possession I have before my pets would go. Things are just things and they are living, loving beings. Pets are for life just like kids except they don't live as long:)) I have worked in dog rescue for years and it is that kind of thinking that does not make people take pet ownership seriously. How about renting a studio so it would be cheaper? If life was just about $ it would not be worth living.

My guess is that lessisbest was just being mean-spirited. Something could be going wrong in their life right now and they just want to lash out. Harlan and I just happened to be in the path of that lashing.

But I am with you, I'd toss every physical thing I own before I'd give up my dog. I'd only give up my dog if I could not take care of him well.

The studio is not that much cheaper... :(

[Teacher Terry]

The number 1 reason people give up their dogs is because they are moving or don't want to pay for a surgery they need. Not can't pay but don't want too. Our HS have had 14 yo dogs that just need a simple surgery. Thankfully we are no kill and will fix the dog and adopt it out. I have taken in old, sick dogs that their owner didn't want and 2x's drove across the country to get the dogs. Many people believe that pets are disposal. Although, we have had to recognize our limits and cannot no longer do this so. If we die it wouldn't be fair to saddle our kids with all these pets. I am surprised that rents are so high in your part of the country. Ugh!

[Ultralight]

The number 1 reason people give up their dogs is because they are moving or don't want to pay for a surgery they need. Not can't pay but don't want too. Our HS have had 14 yo dogs that just need a simple surgery. Thankfully we are no kill and will fix the dog and adopt it out. I have taken in old, sick dogs that their owner didn't want and 2x's drove across the country to get the dogs. Many people believe that pets are disposal. Although, we have had to recognize our limits and cannot no longer do this so. If we die it wouldn't be fair to saddle our kids with all these pets. I am surprised that rents are so high in your part of the country. Ugh!

Rents are low in the rough areas of the city, which are also like 40 minute commutes to my work. I work in a ritzy suburb.

So I am just mitigating the circumstances the best I can -- getting the cheapest, best place that is closest to work. I won't have to drive to work, I can walk or cycle. That is a big perk.

But about dogs... I read somewhere that at least 33% of dogs die in a shelter or in the street. I don't know how true it is, but if it is even half that then we're still talking tragedy.

When my parents die I have no idea what will become of their two dogs or their unknown numbers of cats. And at any point they could get more dogs and -- more likely -- more cats.

[Teacher Terry]

We intend to get down to 1 or 2 dogs and then my kids can deal with that. Millions of dogs/cats are pts every year. Our local HS travels around the country teaching others how to be a no kill shelter that never fills up so to speak. There are techniques they use to keep the pets moving out, partnering with other groups, lots of volunteers and foster homes, etc. I have a good friend that does dog rescue and her hubby could not take care of all of them if she dies but she has homes for each of them with her friends. I think it is only responsible to plan for the future.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Roommates? Ok roommates suck, hey I don't have roommates, because I don't like them. But I'd like to think I'd (and truthfully I probably would) choose roomates over choosing a romantic relationship for financial reasons (as if I have any ability to choose a relationship for financial reasons anyway, I pretty much always in better financial shape than just about everyone I date - and it's not like I'm rich).

A situation that might work is finding someone to rent a room off of in a house in as well.


The studio is not that much cheaper...

i hear you on this, they seldom are, that's some myth non-renters think because they don't know. But even a little cheaper is a little cheaper I guess. Could even buying be cheaper where you are? it certainly isn't here, but in some parts of the country I sometimes hear it is, and maybe you could rent out a room or something. Buying really only works if you plan to stay put though, if you switch jobs a lot it doesn't work well.

[Teacher Terry]

It sucks that the rent is so high in comparison to your income-ugh!

[JaneV2.0]

We have good no-kill shelters in the PNW. People generally spay and neuter, and that results in many fewer animals needing homes, and far fewer euthanizations. Wings of Rescue (plug!) routinely flies endangered dogs and cats to shelters up here, notably NOAH (plug!) where people are waiting to adopt. The Oregon Humane Society is a model of how it should be done, and the Seattle Humane Society is slowly catching up to them (double plug!). Other areas of the country are derelict and worse in their treatment of companion animals, IMO.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It sucks that the rent is so high in comparison to your income-ugh!

Welcome to the year 2016, seems to be everyone's struggle these days, wondering how long they can make rent, when rents keep going up.

[Ultralight]

Welcome to the year 2016, seems to be everyone's struggle these days, wondering how long they can make rent, when rents keep going up.

I often think about van dwelling. hahaha

[JaneV2.0]

$860 sounds like a pretty good deal compared to what I'm hearing around here. I rented an apartment in the heart of Bellevue for $820 thirty years ago, so I say jump on it, unless your instincts tell you there is something wrong with it.

[freshstart]

Whenever people say get rid of your dog my head feels like it is going to explode. I knew you wouldn't even consider it UL. I would live in my RV before I would give up my 4 dogs. I would give up every single material possession I have before my pets would go. Things are just things and they are living, loving beings. Pets are for life just like kids except they don't live as long:)) I have worked in dog rescue for years and it is that kind of thinking that does not make people take pet ownership seriously. How about renting a studio so it would be cheaper? If life was just about $ it would not be worth living.

exactly this. I hate to even imagine life without Bernice, I would sacrifice everything first. From the way you talk, Harlan has taken up residence inside your heart.

[freshstart]

Now it is a 15 month lease. :(

a 4 month lease didn't sound worth the hassle even though you can move literally with a moment's notice. Maybe you will settle in with Harlan and eventually it will feel like home. Did you figure out canoe storage?

[lessisbest]

Hey, I’m not the relationship and financial loser in this thread who is whining about a $150,000 student loan debt and scared about making a commitment to an $860/month apartment rent. I’m an actual adult who worked hard to be a debt-free winner and who now gets to enjoy the PAID FOR fruits of our labor. We’re the people who live off 1/3 of our income and pay cash for everything.

And no, I’m not bragging, just stating facts. A couple who came from poor families; worked and saved since we were 13-years old and paid our own way from that time on. Who have never rented a home/apartment --- EVER. Who didn’t gointo debt for things we didn’t need. We weren’t lucky - we worked hard and smart.

I also happen to teach FREE budgeting classes in 4 local non-profit organizations, and have taught hundreds of individuals and families how to get out of debt. People who are on fixed incomes, low-incomes, and people with so much debt it’s unbelievable. So maybe I happen to know something about it. I don’t just talk the talk, I also walk the walk.

And it is anything and everything that is unnecessary that gets removed from the budget until you can get debt under control – whether it’s pets or pet projects. Whether it’s cable TV, magazine subscriptions, gym memberships, the local newspaper, tobacco, booze, vehicles, habits, hobbies you can’t afford, and even that precious bottled water everyone think they need, when you are drowning in debt. NO, you don’t “deserve” ______________ just because you are living and breathing. When you can afford something and pay for it is when you can have it – an old-fashioned notion we need to bring back. Or in some cases, creative thinking like marry someone who can bail you out of the mess you’ve gotten yourself into because you’re not man enough to do it yourself. You need your "free time"..... to be taking care of your debts.

So -- no -- we didn’t put our daughter up for adoption because we could actually afford her. I stayed home during the day running a daycare so I could take care of her, and worked from 6 to midnight while my husband was at home. He went to his first two jobs (cleaned a fast-food restaurant and an insurance office) at 4 a.m., attended college classes in the morning, worked 12-1:30 (his third job) at a grade school, attended college classes in the afternoon, and went to his fourth job (janitor at two schools) after classes (3-5 p.m.).

We owned a home (even if it was only a 10’x50’ mobile home – which hubby purchased before we got married when he went to college and rented out the extra bedroom), 2 paid-for cars which we purchased ourselves before we were married, we could afford all our living expenses, AND a college education – even if we did have to stretch it out to 5-1/2 years and one summer for a 4-year curriculum. It meant sacrificing for a short period of time while hubby got his architectural degree, but it paid dividends down the road. We didn’t see the inside of a restaurant unless someone else was paying for it or you worked there. Went years without attending a movie, taking a vacation (hard to do when you work 7-days a week). Watched a black & white TV with rabbit ears. Were proud patrons of the library and free zoo, attended church, and anything we could do for free. Learned how to live on less without giving it a fancy name or writing a blog about it, and lived in a small trailer without calling it a “tiny house”. And most of all, never felt sorry for ourselves.

[Williamsmith]

Lessisbest.....what an incredibly harsh and critical response. Very preachy. Reminds me of the popular commercial for Direct TV service known as "The Settlers". Do you also churn butter and make your own clothes? Do you milk your own cow, entertain yourself with widget sticks and only make your own gifts of faceless dolls?

Take the pack off. But for one crisis in your life which may be just on the horizon, your financial "peace" could be threatened by a landslide of medical bills, taxes or attorney's fees.

Your reply seems very bitter. I wonder how you could teach anyone anything with such a scornful attitude. Makes being debt free seem like a Conestoga Wagon trip over the Rockies. We all make our bed and lay in it. But a little credit might be acceptable to keep from sleeping on the floor. But Go ahead and settle. Enjoy your cabbages, hoop and stick.

[sweetana3]

WS, there are a lot more of us out there than you realize and we keep quiet because sometimes it seems the majority just want to live paycheck to paycheck and have no thought of the future. I said "want" because they move like a herd of sheep towards the latest advertising gimmick or purchase and don't listen to any alternates. We let them. Some of us are afraid of "them" because it seems they want what we have and feel the right to take it instead of earning it.

Sounds like lessisbest teaches those who want a different way.

I suspect many would laugh at our attempts to save a dollar (or a quarter) but we find it worthwhile and somewhat of a challenge.

[Williamsmith]

WS, there are a lot more of us out there than you realize and we keep quiet because sometimes it seems the majority just want to live paycheck to paycheck and have no thought of the future. I said "want" because they move like a herd of sheep towards the latest advertising gimmick or purchase and don't listen to any alternates. We let them. Some of us are afraid of "them" because it seems they want what we have and feel the right to take it instead of earning it.

Sounds like lessisbest teaches those who want a different way.

I suspect many would laugh at our attempts to save a dollar (or a quarter) but we find it worthwhile and somewhat of a challenge.

I don't disagree with or belittle the push back against consumerism or advertising. It is very difficult to define who is earning it and who is stealing it and very presumptive don't you think?

In this case, there is also a difference between sharing ones opinion with another and beating them over the head with it. The first can be quite instructive, the later simply an abuse.

A valid point could have been made without calling the OP a financial loser, a lonely single, a debt ridden whiner, a deadbeat, a thief, a juvenile, a worthless borrower, a false person, entitled leech on society, dull minded twit, an undeserving lazy smart ass, and an unchurched slothful drag on society?

I was once a victim of lessisbest petty put downs and I don't remember an apology nor do I forget. That kind of abuse will be responded to no matter who the target is when I see it.

[iris lilies]

The number 1 reason people give up their dogs is because they are moving or don't want to pay for a surgery they need. Not can't pay but don't want too. Our HS have had 14 yo dogs that just need a simple surgery. Thankfully we are no kill and will fix the dog and adopt it out. I have taken in old, sick dogs that their owner didn't want and 2x's drove across the country to get the dogs. Many people believe that pets are disposal. Although, we have had to recognize our limits and cannot no longer do this so. If we die it wouldn't be fair to saddle our kids with all these pets. I am surprised that rents are so high in your part of the country. Ugh!
Agreed, any plan that does not include Harlan is no plan!

[early morning]

ULA, I'm not sure what ritzy suburb you are close to, but DS has a sublet, which is the top floor of one of those big old semi-detached homes a block off Broad. It must be reasonable, because he doesn't make much. Maybe instead of reading the ads, talk to the people you know. That's how he found his.... Many people looking to sublet part of their home don't want to advertise for a stranger, they want people they know, or that their friends know. Good luck!

[rosarugosa]

In this case, there is also a difference between sharing ones opinion with another and beating them over the head with it. The first can be quite instructive, the later simply an abuse.



Well said, Williamsmith. I agree that Lessisbest's venomous response was an inappropriate attack on another forum member. We each have different circumstances and we may make different choices, but I think the goal here is to share thoughts and ideas and to learn from one other. I would hope we could do so in a civil and mutually respectful manner.

[Zoe Girl]

I feel for you, I guess I am surprised that more people don't know that this is how it is. There is no magic answer here even when we live simply. I work a professional job, put in about 60 hours this week, and can just afford very very basics. I don't have a crappy apartment in a crappy neighborhood but I have a medium nice one in the city and I want to stay here. It means a VERY tight budget and some decisions that I struggle with all the time like my student loans.

But reflecting on my recent budget topic this IS how it is for so very many of us!! And for me this is the reason to get involved in the political process as jaded as I am, because so many of us are feeling this tightness around money, making good decisions (UA I would say take the apartment, it sounds nice and this is what people are paying, the ride/walk to work sounds lovely), putting aside $10 here and there that doesn't keep very long, and scared of the future. All the combinations of work harder, spend less, be prepared, are just not adding up for too many people. In the earlier years of things like YMOYL I heard stories of people really making it work and having this nice balance, now it depends more on if you have reasonable housing costs based on buying a home years ago but most others I am not hearing the great success stories. That is a deep thought, and the intention really is to share that it is not a personal failure to struggle with this.

[JaneV2.0]

Agreed, any plan that does not include Harlan is no plan!

I agree Throwing a loyal friend away for convenience is a non-starter. It would be prudent not to take on a companion animal when you're in dire straits, but the deed is done, the bond is there, and--in my world--you only give up an animal if you're permanently incapacitated. If I had to share food with said animal, seek out low-cost vet care, and downsize my living quarters to keep our heads above water, I would.

And yeah, lessisbest's jeremiad was pretty chilling. I don't think you have to give up every shred of comfort or ease to get on your feet financially. I re-assert that life is here to be lived--not endured while wearing a hair shirt and hair shorts and scourging yourself with a cat-o-nine-tails. Ugh.

[freshstart]

late to the party but I agree there is a way to get your point across without calling someone a financial and relationship loser. I think UA has also proven he does not thoughtlessly spend money he doesn't have. And I laud the choice to live on less (and 40k is not THAT much less) to have time to have experiences vs working 4 jobs. He does not come across as whining to me, he has a full time career with a plan to pay off his debt and I don't believe he is drowning in cc debt. Let's build him up, not tear him down

[ApatheticNoMore]

What even is a relationship loser? Certainly one can't easily know what another person's relationship is like from superficial outside observances. Caring about whether one is a 'relationship loser' seems to be more caring about how one's relationships or lack there of look to the world than what the experience of being in them (or lack of them) is actually like. Which I suppose many cultures have done but even then usually with a lot of outlets for out-liars (confirmed bachelors, Boston marriages, and running off and joining a nunnery, and others, fringe as they may have been).

[Float On]

UL you mentioned this was a sub-lease. Did you check with the rental agency and see what those apartments are going for leasing directly as opposed to the sub-lease. I'd hate to find out my friend was trying to make an extra $100 a month off me.

[ToomuchStuff]

Seen this before. Redfox calling names because of differing values with the other posters. I believe while we are allowed to have that opinion of them, calling them names, violates the terms of service one agrees to. We have the right to agree to disagree, but when your getting in insult land, I expect the moderators will do their jobs.
I understand where Lessisbest is coming from, as I don't share all the values I see UA writing about, but I also believe some (probably most), people consider or treat their pets as family (and sometimes the pets are better then family).
I think you two might want to take a break from each other, because when you start rubbing each other the wrong way that you feel the need to call names, best to cool off.

[bae]

$860 sounds like a pretty good deal compared to what I'm hearing around here. I rented an apartment in the heart of Bellevue for $820 thirty years ago, so I say jump on it, unless your instincts tell you there is something wrong with it.

My wife and I paid $700/month for a horrible apartment in East Palo Alto in 1985. We got to drift to sleep to the soothing sound of gunfire, and drug deals in our courtyard. We then upgraded in 1986 and paid $850/month to rent the basement-level "apartment" in a fellow's house way out in the woods in the mountains, in La Honda, which was a good 1 hour drive to work on dangerous twisty roads.

[Teacher Terry]

So I read Lessibests' mean spirited reply and can't believe it and then I read WS reply and can't stop laughing out loud. I think L must be very much like the Settler commercial. When we were young my hubby worked 2 jobs and I raised the kids and he had no life because he worked all the time. We lived below our means and did without many things. We did not do this permanently. We did it long enough until he got a better paying job and gradually as we could afford things we added them in. I think life should be a balance between living mindfully but also having some enjoyment. If you are always depriving yourself, working 24-7 and then suddenly die what a waste of a life. There is a balance between running up massive amounts of debt and totally depriving yourself. L and her DH are at the time of their lives when they should be taking some trips, enjoying themselves, etc while you can yet all the posts are about doing everything yourself and continuing to save $. So I guess their heirs will have a blast spending the $ when they are gone. Yes UL made some mistakes with student loan debt but that ship has sailed. WE have rarely rented so I guess I am out of touch with rents. When I moved to NV I was newly single and renting a condo and then found out that the mortgage on one was cheaper then renting one so I quickly bought one.

[JaneV2.0]

My wife and I paid $700/month for a horrible apartment in East Palo Alto in 1985. We got to drift to sleep to the soothing sound of gunfire, and drug deals in our courtyard. We then upgraded in 1986 and paid $850/month to rent the basement-level "apartment" in a fellow's house way out in the woods in the mountains, in La Honda, which was a good 1 hour drive to work on dangerous twisty roads.

Depending on the location, west coast rents can be brutal. They were reasonable here in the mid-eighties, but are prohibitive now. I like the sound of "way out in the woods," even with the driving distance.

[Teacher Terry]

There is a big difference between leading a frugal life and leading a deprived life.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Depending on the location, west coast rents can be brutal.

when I'm paying less than $200 more for a one bedroom in Cali than than one in Ohio I have to say the figure is shocking. I don't have rent control, but some people manage to get rent controlled places as well and they may not be paying any more for a one bedroom here than that $860 (if you can find a rent controlled place, go for it).

The problem with "can't afford it" is it usually has a large subjective element. Expenses > pay is a real "can't afford it" unless the debt is very carefully thought out (student loans might actually be good debt in some cases!). But people use can't afford it as "I can't afford it and also save as much as I'd like" or "I can't afford it and also afford x that I want", which is a very casual use of the phrase. Or they just use it as: "I'd really prefer not to pay so much in rent", which of course is understandable values around money, but not always doable depending on rents where one is, if one can accept having roommates etc.. Then others I suppose go ballistic "ack you can't afford it, shame, shame, your are a terrible person!"


There is a big difference between leading a frugal life and leading a deprived life.

yea but it takes a certain income relative to basic costs and choices to make that choice. I could preach to the homeless all day long about "there is a difference between a frugal and a deprived life" and they just look at me like: "huh? what are you on about?" But those who voluntarily choose to live in a cave or something I suppose have their own point of view (far more out there than the homeless who would rather just have more normal lives including normal shelter).


Seen this before. Redfox calling names because of differing values with the other posters.

It's about values, those who value being a winner rather than a loser excessively in my view overvalue social standing. We all lose this mortal coil eventually anyway.

People succeeding by sheer determination is always a useful perspective (minus the insults and calling people losers because your way of arranging your sex life is different than theirs) but sometimes it comes at what others might consider and decide is too high a cost (all that multiple jobs might strain many otherwise good relationships to the breaking point for instance).

[creaker]

There is a big difference between leading a frugal life and leading a deprived life.

For the former a little is enough - for the latter it isn't. And for many having a lot still isn't enough to not feel deprived.

[rosarugosa]

ANM: Slightly off topic, but I had to google the term "Boston marriage." I have lived within 15 miles of Boston all my life, went to college there, and worked there for most of my career, and I had never heard the term before!

[Teacher Terry]

I think balance is important. Some years we will use our Rv locally and not spend much $ but other years we will go to Europe or take a cruise. When we were young and raising our kids we couldn't afford to do this but now have reached the age where we want to enjoy the fruits of our labors. Time is promised to no one so everyone should indulge in small pleasures through out their lives. Studies show that up to about 75% of the homeless have a severe mental illness untreated which is why they are in their predicament. That is an entirely different topic but one Wi community is solving the problem by building a tiny house community just for them.

[iris lilies]

?... but when your getting in insult land, I expect the moderators will do their jobs.
...
This moderator thinks you all did a great job on this thread, so thanks!

No need for further action from me.

[Ultralight]

Hey, I’m not the relationship and financial loser in this thread who is whining about a $150,000 student loan debt and scared about making a commitment to an $860/month apartment rent. I’m an actual adult who worked hard to be a debt-free winner and who now gets to enjoy the PAID FOR fruits of our labor. We’re the people who live off 1/3 of our income and pay cash for everything.

And no, I’m not bragging, just stating facts. A couple who came from poor families; worked and saved since we were 13-years old and paid our own way from that time on. Who have never rented a home/apartment --- EVER. Who didn’t gointo debt for things we didn’t need. We weren’t lucky - we worked hard and smart.

I also happen to teach FREE budgeting classes in 4 local non-profit organizations, and have taught hundreds of individuals and families how to get out of debt. People who are on fixed incomes, low-incomes, and people with so much debt it’s unbelievable. So maybe I happen to know something about it. I don’t just talk the talk, I also walk the walk.

And it is anything and everything that is unnecessary that gets removed from the budget until you can get debt under control – whether it’s pets or pet projects. Whether it’s cable TV, magazine subscriptions, gym memberships, the local newspaper, tobacco, booze, vehicles, habits, hobbies you can’t afford, and even that precious bottled water everyone think they need, when you are drowning in debt. NO, you don’t “deserve” ______________ just because you are living and breathing. When you can afford something and pay for it is when you can have it – an old-fashioned notion we need to bring back. Or in some cases, creative thinking like marry someone who can bail you out of the mess you’ve gotten yourself into because you’re not man enough to do it yourself. You need your "free time"..... to be taking care of your debts.

So -- no -- we didn’t put our daughter up for adoption because we could actually afford her. I stayed home during the day running a daycare so I could take care of her, and worked from 6 to midnight while my husband was at home. He went to his first two jobs (cleaned a fast-food restaurant and an insurance office) at 4 a.m., attended college classes in the morning, worked 12-1:30 (his third job) at a grade school, attended college classes in the afternoon, and went to his fourth job (janitor at two schools) after classes (3-5 p.m.).

We owned a home (even if it was only a 10’x50’ mobile home – which hubby purchased before we got married when he went to college and rented out the extra bedroom), 2 paid-for cars which we purchased ourselves before we were married, we could afford all our living expenses, AND a college education – even if we did have to stretch it out to 5-1/2 years and one summer for a 4-year curriculum. It meant sacrificing for a short period of time while hubby got his architectural degree, but it paid dividends down the road. We didn’t see the inside of a restaurant unless someone else was paying for it or you worked there. Went years without attending a movie, taking a vacation (hard to do when you work 7-days a week). Watched a black & white TV with rabbit ears. Were proud patrons of the library and free zoo, attended church, and anything we could do for free. Learned how to live on less without giving it a fancy name or writing a blog about it, and lived in a small trailer without calling it a “tiny house”. And most of all, never felt sorry for ourselves.

The main point I take away from this post by lessisbest is that in the future I should be more tactful and more considerate in my responses to others. I know I can certainly be harsh, and I have on here. Seeing the bitterness and toxicity in someone else sure illustrates how unpleasant it can make a person appear. I don't want to appear or to actually be this way. Sometimes the anonymity of the internet brings out a person's dark side. I am going to guess that lessisbest might not be so harsh in real life.

With that said, I am curious how the students in your classes respond when you tell them to get rid of their pets because they are costly, give their kids up for adoption because they cannot afford them, and tell then they are losers in finance and in relationships.

Yes, you are a debt-free winner. Congrats to you. Perhaps now is an excellent time for introspection.

I have nixed many of my expensive "pet projects" such as archery and sporting clays shooting (I do this once in a while, but not a couple days a week like I used to, and I am going to quit entirely for the foreseeable future because it is costly). I don't get cable TV or have subscriptions. I don't have a gym membership. I don't get the newspaper. I don't drink or smoke or do any drugs. My car is a paid-off Nissan Versa from 2012. I do have a bad habit of eating out too often, like once a week or so. I also get convenience foods at the grocery too often. Guilty as charged on that. And man... don't I know I have a problem with La Croix -- that sparkling water is so delicious. Though I went from about 6 cans a day to roughly one a day. Again: Guilty on that!

I wonder if you and your husband working all the time could have made you all miss some really amazing times you could have had with friends or family. I know two women at work, both have kids. One chose to take a promotion and get $5k more a year. She works late and does not get to see her kids. Another woman went to 30 hours a week so she could spend more time with her kids. Her rationale was: "I will never get these years back. So I actually want to be there with my kids."

There is a value in her sentiment.

I know people whose kids are strangers because they are addicted to workahol. Sad...

Don't you think that black and white TV and the bunny ears was a bit of a luxury you could have done without? You could have sold it for $10 and put that in your IRA! And that time you spent watching it! Think of the opportunity costs! You could have been working an additional job during that time!

I go to the library. I am not a fan of the zoo. I am not religious, but I do go to a liberal Methodist church for some simple living activities and I occasionally go to the UU for an event or two.

I don't have a blog. I did have a blog about learning traditional skills for couple years. It was fun and mostly about fishing.

Which fancy name do you refer to?

[pinkytoe]

UA-If it makes you feel better, one bedrooms here start at $1200. I have a sense that what is going on in this country is that investors have turned away from the stock market or oil/gas and are buying up apartments and rental houses. They are jacking up the prices as much as they can since renting is turning out to be the only option for many. I like to read local business activities and seems like apartment complexes get flipped at a vey rapid pace. I honestly don't know how many afford to keep a roof over their heads here unless they have multiple room mates or second and third jobs. I guess if I found myself needing a cheaper living situation, I would look for a caretaking gig where I could live in someone's garage apt and do chores to lessen the rent. If such a thing even still exists.

[Ultralight]

UA-If it makes you feel better, one bedrooms here start at $1200. I have a sense that what is going on in this country is that investors have turned away from the stock market or oil/gas and are buying up apartments and rental houses. They are jacking up the prices as much as they can since renting is turning out to be the only option for many. I like to read local business activities and seems like apartment complexes get flipped at a vey rapid pace. I honestly don't know how many afford to keep a roof over their heads here unless they have multiple room mates or second and third jobs. I guess if I found myself needing a cheaper living situation, I would look for a caretaking gig where I could live in someone's garage apt and do chores to lessen the rent. If such a thing even still exists.

Yes, that does give me some perspective. And you are probably right about the prices being jacked up.

My intention is to rent the place for the 15 months; I will spend this time figuring out some ways to make my life more efficient as to offset some of the costs of renting this expensive place. I think being able to cycle to work in 5 minutes will be a decent offset of the costs too, compared to 20 minute drives to work and 20 minute drives from work.

[Williamsmith]

Are there not a lot of rental property owners who are connected with the University you work for? The schools I know are surrounded by rentals and many are rented out by word of mouth. Finding a month to month rental would be ideal but short of that six months or at the worst twelve. Your flexibility is valuable to you at this stage in the game.

One of your strengths is that you are mobile with few belongings. Is there an option out there for living out of a recreational vehicle at a rv park? Tiny house? What about a leave of absence and a volunteer mission out of country for some adventure?

You strike me as someone who can afford to make big lifestyle changes without much risk. Many people are so tied to their things that it is impossible for them to consider such. Your simplicity is a real asset.

[Ultralight]

I appreciate you saying that, Williamsmith.

[Ultralight]

Well, it is a done deal. I signed the lease and rented the place.

Commitments of the financial variety give me some serious anxiety. :(

But I will power through, make the best of my First World Problems, and treat this like a learning experience.

I have never lived by myself, interestingly enough.

[Zoe Girl]

The main point I take away from this post by lessisbest is that in the future I should be more tactful and more considerate in my responses to others. I know I can certainly be harsh, and I have on here. Seeing the bitterness and toxicity in someone else sure illustrates how unpleasant it can make a person appear. I don't want to appear or to actually be this way. Sometimes the anonymity of the internet brings out a person's dark side.

That is a valuable lesson, and I appreciate that you are willing to learn from this.

[Teacher Terry]

In Nevada rents are going up because so many people lost their homes so are now renters and no apartments were being built for a long time. Now both apartments and houses are being built and home prices are really going up again. UL: I am glad that one of your work friends realizes that she will never get those years back with her kids. I know that if I had kept working instead of staying home with my kids that i would have more $ now but it was very important to me to give my kids a good foundation and enjoy them. I am also glad that you realized attacking people and being mean spirited just isn't good for anyone. I have wanted to strangle you at times but realize I am no angel myself:|(.

[Ultralight]

UL: I am glad that one of your work friends realizes that she will never get those years back with her kids. I know that if I had kept working instead of staying home with my kids that i would have more $ now but it was very important to me to give my kids a good foundation and enjoy them.

Amen sistah.


I am also glad that you realized attacking people and being mean spirited just isn't good for anyone. I have wanted to strangle you at times but realize I am no angel myself:|(.

I have been thinking about it a lot. My friends in real life, if they saw some of the arguments I have on here, would probably be like: "Mr. Hyde!" haha

[freshstart]

you won't be alone, you'll have Harlan! Congrats even though you have mixed feelings

[pinkytoe]

Once you cultivate a new girlfriend, you'll have a nice private place of your own to co-mingle.

[iris lilies]

Once you cultivate a new girlfriend, you'll have a nice private place of your own to co-mingle.
Yes! Lets drink to co mingling!!!

[pinkytoe]

I don't think UL drinks but we'll raise a glass for him.

[jp1]

Yes, that does give me some perspective.

If you want even more perspective go to craigslist and look at San Francisco apartments. My half of our rent is twice your total rent. We're fortunate to make salaries to match.

Of course, you could always do like this guy... http://www.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in-parking-lot-2015-10 I don't suppose your employer would let you bring Harlan to the office? I assume your employer also doesn't provide showers like google does, so you'd probably have to invest in a gym membership somewhere nearby.

[Miss Cellane]

Are there not a lot of rental property owners who are connected with the University you work for? The schools I know are surrounded by rentals and many are rented out by word of mouth. Finding a month to month rental would be ideal but short of that six months or at the worst twelve. Your flexibility is valuable to you at this stage in the game.

One of your strengths is that you are mobile with few belongings. Is there an option out there for living out of a recreational vehicle at a rv park? Tiny house? What about a leave of absence and a volunteer mission out of country for some adventure?

You strike me as someone who can afford to make big lifestyle changes without much risk. Many people are so tied to their things that it is impossible for them to consider such. Your simplicity is a real asset.

I don't know about where UL lives, but in New England, at least the areas where I've lived, while it is true that there are a lot of rentals in and around college towns, those rentals are pretty expensive. The landlords anticipate that several college kids will rent one apartment and share the rent, so they jack the rents up.

My city is next to the town with the state university, and a lot of students like to live here, as it is closer to the highway to get to Boston or home or wherever. A friend is currently looking for a small one or two bedroom apartment here, and is seeing rents of $900-$1200 for a one bedroom, $1400-$1600 for a two bedroom. These are not sparkling new apartment buildings, but half of a 1900s-era two family, or an apartment in an old Victorian that's been chopped into several apartments. She's looked a few newer complexes and they are even more expensive.

And there are no short term leases. College kids have to sign a year's lease, or pay a higher monthly rent for a short term lease, like $100-$150 more per month. Most landlords require a lease for the first year. For the second year, some are willing to go month-to-month.

[Ultralight]

Thanks for the well-wishes and such. :)

[Float On]

UL, I forget...is it furnished or do you need to buy a few things. Have you started a list? I always like a new start and something different. This will be new for you for sure since you'll be living alone (well the only one in the apartment with thumbs. I know the dog won't be able to cut carrots for you at dinner time).

[Ultralight]

UL, I forget...is it furnished or do you need to buy a few things. Have you started a list? I always like a new start and something different. This will be new for you for sure since you'll be living alone (well the only one in the apartment with thumbs. I know the dog won't be able to cut carrots for you at dinner time).

It is not furnished. My plan is to try to get by on what I already have, but I think I may need a crock pot come autumn. And measuring spoons/cups -- I need those.

[Chicken lady]

You could get a shot glass. My son baked a birthday cake from scratch with a shot glass, a bowl, and an aluminum take out pan in his fraternity house. It might help to be a math major....

[Miss Cellane]

It is not furnished. My plan is to try to get by on what I already have, but I think I may need a crock pot come autumn. And measuring spoons/cups -- I need those.

Check out thrift stores for all of that. Even if the crock pot doesn't have a manual, they are usually available online.

[frugal-one]

Well, I, for one, hope Lessisbest does not leave the forum based on this thread! She has a lot to offer. I learned many things from her. We all see things differently and have a right to voice our opinion.

[shadowmoss]

Get an Instant Pot rather than a slow cooker or pressure cooker or rice cooker, as it is all of those in one.

[JaneV2.0]

My Instant Pot just dinged, and I'm now enjoying some piping hot chicken soup. Unfortunately, it's 80 degrees out. :0!
i highly recommend the IP.

[Ultralight]

Well, I, for one, hope Lessisbest does not leave the forum based on this thread! She has a lot to offer. I learned many things from her. We all see things differently and have a right to voice our opinion.

I have no desire for her to leave either.

[Ultralight]

Get an Instant Pot rather than a slow cooker or pressure cooker or rice cooker, as it is all of those in one.

This is an excellent suggestion!

[Teacher Terry]

I can't believe you are paying so much for 350sq ft. Heck that should be a studio not a 1 br. My kids have lived in studios that were 500.

[frugal-one]

This is an excellent suggestion!

The only question I have.... in researching the Instant Pot it said the liner wears out and should last about one year. The cost to replace is around $15. So, those that have one... can you expound?

[JaneV2.0]

The only question I have.... in researching the Instant Pot it said the liner wears out and should last about one year. The cost to replace is around $15. So, those that have one... can you expound?

I suspect they were referring to the gasket. I bought a spare, but my original doesn't show any wear after two years. If they're referring to the inner pot, that's a very sturdy stainless steel.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The apartment within walking distance to work does sound more and more tempting, I really need to do that (but I'd have to look at rents. There is a limit to how much I will pay in rent, maybe somewhat more for closer but not vastly more). I wouldn't want the long lease though. And I'll live in a studio with a kitchen but I don't want to live in a closet (I think that works best if you are never home, but if your an introvert who actually is home ....).

I've toyed with the idea of crockpots and pressure cookers and then decided bleh no real advantage over pots and pans! I have more than one pot and one pan as well!!! :) Well the advantage is cooking time but I don't care, if I want something long cooking I'll wait, if I don't want to wait, I'll make something quick. So only thing on the semi-wish list now, that slower cooker was on for awhile, is a toaster, and a electric spice grinder.

[Ultralight]

I am quickly and abruptly now realizing that I am missing numerous items I may actually need to live alone.

I don't even own a trash can! hahaha

[iris lilies]

Go slowly and use your imagination before running out and buyng things. But I know you will do that.

for instance, trash can. Why have one? Just put the trash bag under your sink. Put stuff in it. You may have to bend over (exercise!,) and keep it tied so it doesnt spill out. Also, if you still have s gle use astic sacks in your state, take advantage of those!

[Ultralight]

Go slowly and use your imagination before running out and buyng things. But I know you will do that.

Yup. :)

[Float On]

I am quickly and abruptly now realizing that I am missing numerous items I may actually need to live alone.

I don't even own a trash can! hahaha


I keep a Target sack hanging on a door knob in the kitchen. Because I don't buy much, recycle, and compost I don't have much trash. I don't buy big trash bags either. Those little Target bags just go in our big trash cans then we take them to the transfer station when we have 6 filled. Takes a long time. Last year I spent $15 total at the transfer station compared to about $50 a month my neighbors pay.

An old oatmeal canister or a large laundry soap box lined with a bag would make a good sized bathroom trashcan. If you want fancy...cover it with contact paper.

[Ultralight]

I keep a Target sack hanging on a door knob in the kitchen. Because I don't buy much, recycle, and compost I don't have much trash. I don't buy big trash bags either. Those little Target bags just go in our big trash cans then we take them to the transfer station when we have 6 filled. Takes a long time. Last year I spent $15 total at the transfer station compared to about $50 a month my neighbors pay.

An old oatmeal canister or a large laundry soap box lined with a bag would make a good sized bathroom trashcan. If you want fancy...cover it with contact paper.

Good points!

[Dhiana]

And measuring spoons/cups -- I need those.

My kitchen is stocked with only the 1/2 cup measuring cup and the standard glass 2 cup measurer for liquids.

A teaspoon from a regular silverware set is just that, a teaspoon.

The soup spoons from the same set are tablespoon sized.

No need for all those extra cups and spoons :)

[Teacher Terry]

In our city you have to pay for trash even if the house is empty. They give you a lower rate but you still pay. What a racket.

[Tenngal]

would you have room for a like-minded room mate? The idea of sharing expenses seems to be popular these days.

[Ultralight]

would you have room for a like-minded room mate? The idea of sharing expenses seems to be popular these days.

Well, the living room will likely be empty, so yeah... if some other extreme minimalist wanted to convert the living room into their own studio apartment-esque abode. :)

[freshstart]

maybe you'll find an interested renter at your minimalist group

[lhamo]

Check and see if there is a Goodwill outlet anywhere near you. They sell stuff that doesn't sell quickly enough in the regular stores by the pound. I got tons of useful household supplies there for really cheap -- things like laundry baskets, waste paper baskets, a compost bin, wicker baskets for storing books and magazines, drawer organizer trays, hangers, etc.

freecycle, buy nothing and nextdoor.com can also be good places to get free stuff, but you have to act quickly. I did manage to get a free comforter off freecycle, and some apples I made into apple sauce. Oh, and a little desk. Haven't been fast enough on anything else, though.

[catherine]

I agree with the freecycle suggestion. It's fantastic.

I'm impressed you said that you "need" measuring cups. You must be a decent home cook. My son has had his own apartment for months and I'm sure he's never considered measuring cups to be a "need" but he does work in the restaurant industry, so I think he gets fed fairly regularly.

[ToomuchStuff]

For those of you who have done the Freecycle thing.....

Do you need to post something to take first to join the Feecycle group (to see other posts)?

[iris lilies]

For those of you who have done the Freecycle thing.....

Do you need to post something to take first to join the Feecycle group (to see other posts)?
In my city Freecycle you have to be apporved to join. I was turned down because I wanted to post some curbside things.

Now I make an announcement on Craigslist of free stuff. Its been a long time since Ive done it. I do not want to make arrangements for people to pick up items, I want to place them in the alley. i realize that only works for the first person to get there, but I will also give notice on the same day they are gone.

i have also listed a very cool,thing in an alley, someone else's theowaway that I didn't nt want, but that is too good t go to a landfill. i figure if sme Ne liges close by, its not a big deal for them to,drive past and if it is good ne, no big deal foe them.

[simplelife4me]

www.cheaprvliving.com ; )

[Teacher Terry]

It took Freecycle so long to approve me that I put it on the curb with a free sign and the stuff went fast.

[Ultralight]

Hey, I’m not the relationship and financial loser in this thread who is whining about a $150,000 student loan debt and scared about making a commitment to an $860/month apartment rent. I’m an actual adult who worked hard to be a debt-free winner and who now gets to enjoy the PAID FOR fruits of our labor. We’re the people who live off 1/3 of our income and pay cash for everything.

And no, I’m not bragging, just stating facts. A couple who came from poor families; worked and saved since we were 13-years old and paid our own way from that time on. Who have never rented a home/apartment --- EVER. Who didn’t gointo debt for things we didn’t need. We weren’t lucky - we worked hard and smart.

I also happen to teach FREE budgeting classes in 4 local non-profit organizations, and have taught hundreds of individuals and families how to get out of debt. People who are on fixed incomes, low-incomes, and people with so much debt it’s unbelievable. So maybe I happen to know something about it. I don’t just talk the talk, I also walk the walk.

And it is anything and everything that is unnecessary that gets removed from the budget until you can get debt under control – whether it’s pets or pet projects. Whether it’s cable TV, magazine subscriptions, gym memberships, the local newspaper, tobacco, booze, vehicles, habits, hobbies you can’t afford, and even that precious bottled water everyone think they need, when you are drowning in debt. NO, you don’t “deserve” ______________ just because you are living and breathing. When you can afford something and pay for it is when you can have it – an old-fashioned notion we need to bring back. Or in some cases, creative thinking like marry someone who can bail you out of the mess you’ve gotten yourself into because you’re not man enough to do it yourself. You need your "free time"..... to be taking care of your debts.

So -- no -- we didn’t put our daughter up for adoption because we could actually afford her. I stayed home during the day running a daycare so I could take care of her, and worked from 6 to midnight while my husband was at home. He went to his first two jobs (cleaned a fast-food restaurant and an insurance office) at 4 a.m., attended college classes in the morning, worked 12-1:30 (his third job) at a grade school, attended college classes in the afternoon, and went to his fourth job (janitor at two schools) after classes (3-5 p.m.).

We owned a home (even if it was only a 10’x50’ mobile home – which hubby purchased before we got married when he went to college and rented out the extra bedroom), 2 paid-for cars which we purchased ourselves before we were married, we could afford all our living expenses, AND a college education – even if we did have to stretch it out to 5-1/2 years and one summer for a 4-year curriculum. It meant sacrificing for a short period of time while hubby got his architectural degree, but it paid dividends down the road. We didn’t see the inside of a restaurant unless someone else was paying for it or you worked there. Went years without attending a movie, taking a vacation (hard to do when you work 7-days a week). Watched a black & white TV with rabbit ears. Were proud patrons of the library and free zoo, attended church, and anything we could do for free. Learned how to live on less without giving it a fancy name or writing a blog about it, and lived in a small trailer without calling it a “tiny house”. And most of all, never felt sorry for ourselves.

lessisbest: Are you still on the forum?

[catherine]

It appears that that post was her last post, and if she now feels unwelcome here, I'm truly sorry. She contributed a lot--and even though what she said seemed harsh, it seems that the OP is interest in just moving on, so why not just move on?

We have lost a lot of really valuable members. In some cases, you could argue that the people involved were a little overly-sensitive, but OTOH, no matter what, I miss them! I miss Ms Mizerly and redfox, and there are many others who have just done the "fade-away"--Spartana, mtlaurel, tussiemussies, and many more. Permaculture Principle #10 is "Use and value diversity" and so even though we may disagree, the difference is to be cherished. I have learned so much from each of you--because you are different from me, and not despite it.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It didn't seem harsh, no "seem" about it, it was possibly the most brutal post I've ever read here (and yea one can say UL has driven other people away like rodeosweetheart probably (arguments about religion), and that's unfortunate, and if anyone can take care of themselves here it's probably UL, but that post ... mocking someone for their romantic breakup ... my my. This is not a comment on any other posts by lessisbest). Tolerating differences doesn't mean tolerating abuse in my book, though one may argue about where that line is.

[catherine]

It didn't seem harsh, no "seem" about it, it was possibly the most brutal post I've ever read here (and yea one can say UL has driven other people away like rodeosweetheart probably (about religion), and that's unfortunate, and if anyone can take care of themselves here it's probably UL, but that post ... mocking someone for their romantic breakup ... my my - and of course this is not a comment about any other posts about other topics). Tolerating differences doesn't mean tolerating abuse in my book, though one may argue about where that line is.

In the words of the great Rodney King..."Can we all just get along?"

[Ultralight]

I am not interested in lessisbest leaving the forum. I have said this before. And my "check in" on this thread was not to argue but to see if they are still around, now that the dust has settled a bit.

[iris lilies]

I am not interested in lessisbest leaving the forum. I have said this before. And my "check in" on this thread was not to argue but to see if they are still around, now that the dust has settled a bit.
Good show UL. You draw heat because you often invite the heat and can take the heat. Glad you are ok with lessibest continuing to post.

[Ultralight]

This is a dang internet forum. It is best not to take it too seriously.

If Rodeo Sweet Heart did leave because of me, please, someone invite her bag. I will just ignore her.

[ToomuchStuff]

This is a dang internet forum. It is best not to take it too seriously.

If Rodeo Sweet Heart did leave because of me, please, someone invite her bag. I will just ignore her.

You think that, but there is this thing called language and when in written form, it can be very hard to determine if someone is sincere, a smart :moon:, sarcastic, argumentative, or something else.
I know I, myself, have a problem with this. A former member, Bunny's, was writing stuff, that I took her to mean, not as hyperbole. She took offense to my response. I take people to mean what they say. Have for a LONG time.
Recently had a kid tell me they needed x, and instead they needed y. I only knew they "needed" what they told me and am not psychic (sorry lady's who think guys should be able to read minds). I explained to him that the difference was: "that date you had with that gal, was she your girlfriend or boyfriend", to which someone overhearing, lost their soda.

This is one reason for smiley's, when you don't expect things to be serious.
So I would recommend you do the inviting back, in a heartfelt pm, and avoid calling her a bag, maybe.;)

[pinkytoe]

It's so interesting to me how the "faceless-ness" of internet communication plays out. I see it in my neighborhood listserves too. People say and react to comments they would never consider in face to face communication.
As Catherine mentioned, I appreciate the diversity here and I miss some of the long ago posters who have gone before - many who left after feeling criticized or ostracized.

[Ultralight]

My work is devoid of intellectual stimulation. So I razz people on here. I know that is silly, but it is what it is.

[Williamsmith]

I was a member of a baseball forum for ten years. My son was a college scholarship player and we started him at age six. But one day the site owner decided to change formats. I didn't like the new setup and just like that, I signed off and never went back. I think you have to be careful about not driving people away but I also believe that people should be allowed to disappear. It's a choice they feel comfortable with and I would not and do not feel offended or at fault for anyone leaving.

If you want to know someone I do miss around here , it would be Kib. She had a wit about her that made me smile.

[pinkytoe]

If memory serves, Kib disappears regularly.

[Teacher Terry]

I think there are many reasons that people leave. It could be sometimes that people move on to different forums or get bored with one. It was sad that Redfox left because she was mad. She asked for advice and didn't like what she got. I see that all the time on Mr. MM.

[ToomuchStuff]

My work is devoid of intellectual stimulation. So I razz people on here.

Not everyone thinks razzing, as intellectual stimulation. When someone new joins and immediately starts in, without getting a feel for a place, I tend to see razzing as general :moon: holery. Certainly how I took you first.

[Ultralight]

Not everyone thinks razzing, as intellectual stimulation.

I said what I said about razzing as an admission of a character flaw. hahaha

[iris lilies]

I think there are many reasons that people leave. It could be sometimes that people move on to different forums or get bored with one. It was sad that Redfox left because she was mad. She asked for advice and didn't like what she got. I see that all the time on Mr. MM.
I was skewered on MMM and had fun with it. I knew some would be practically apoplectic at my post, and they didnt disappoint!

[Ultralight]

I was skewered on MMM and had fun with it. I knew some would be practically apoplectic at my post, and they didnt disappoint!

More details please!

I am nowhere near ready for MMM's forum!

[herbgeek]

More details please

+1!

I searched for your posts there, and you are as prolific there as you are here, and I have no idea where to start. Your last 50 posts (ie first page of search results) didn't get me anything juicy. >8)

[iris lilies]

More details please!

I am nowhere near ready for MMM's forum!

I posted about how much our household spends annually in retirement. I hadn't really tracked before we retired (MMM and YMOYL sin #1) but I started keeping track in the month we retired. I posted that we spend around $65,000 annually ( unforgiveable MMM sin #2) but hey,
i think it is a crapload of money, too. We are spendIng into our stash a bit (MMM sin #3 to go beyond the 4% rule) so we might as well just shoot ourselves in the head according to the rigid dudes on MMm.

ok, kiddng, I actually enjoy them very much, and they offer good advice most of,the time. A couple of them wnted to see my "budget" but I dont have one. No doubt they would say " so get a budget" and I would have to be all " ummm, no, never mind."

If you had asked me, I would have said that we spend around $45,000 annually without measuring.

I asked on the MMM forums how much people spend in retirement because I was interested if others spent this much.

Was reamed in that thread for spending so much! Haha. The guru Mr. money Mustache himself spends $25,000 annually but there are addendums to his budget such as nice vacations paid by speaking engagements.

[Teacher Terry]

IL: I can't remember if I posted in those threads or not but we spend 70k/year. That does not include doing our backyard ( I envy people when they live where it rains and grass just grows) and my 30k dental expenses.

[lhamo]

IL, if it makes you feel any better I'm estimating our full-time Seattle budget will be somewhere in the 80-100k range, not including college tuition for DS. That includes a huge amount for health insurance/deductibles (since I'm not sure we will ever qualify for ACA subsidies -- need to see how the investment portfolio gets structured and what kinds of returns we get), relatively high property taxes, and generous amounts for food and travel (as we will still need to come back to China to visit family). I don't generally post about my full budget details there because I don't want or need feedback -- I have been tracking our expenses against values for nearly 20 years now, and know why we spend what we spend and what it is worth to us. I admire and respect Pete and others for keeping their spending low, but I don't feel the need to beat myself up over not being able to keep to those kinds of budgets. I'm makiing different choices and they have different costs. And I can afford them.

[Zoe Girl]

So good to see you lhamo, I was thinking about you this week. I agree with not feeling guilt over budgets that are not uber-low. I would gladly take higher and I would spend more, and would enjoy it. I used to have a high income when I was married, and the first few years after divorce I paid a high mortgage with the money I got. YMOYL is about tracking and making conscious choices, not about always making the lowest possible choices.

Honestly I respect my mom for all the years she hired housekeepers and other services, She paid fairly, treated people well and made those choices so she could do her work that was very valuable to her.

[sweetana3]

The most important part is "conscious choices" and not random thoughtless spending.

My stepmother makes good money being a housekeeper/companion/other. She charges $25 per hour and is in demand. Gives her a business and freedom. It impresses me.

Hi, Llamo. We also have tracked our finances for over 20 years. I think we have our summary "Life Book" from back then to the present. The only time I expect anyone to comment on our spending is if we complain about it. Otherwise, it is only our business.

[iris lilies]

IL, if it makes you feel any better I'm estimating our full-time Seattle budget will be somewhere in the 80-100k range, not including college tuition for DS. That includes a huge amount for health insurance/deductibles (since I'm not sure we will ever qualify for ACA subsidies -- need to see how the investment portfolio gets structured and what kinds of returns we get), relatively high property taxes, and generous amounts for food and travel (as we will still need to come back to China to visit family). I don't generally post about my full budget details there because I don't want or need feedback -- I have been tracking our expenses against values for nearly 20 years now, and know why we spend what we spend and what it is worth to us. I admire and respect Pete and others for keeping their spending low, but I don't feel the need to beat myself up over not being able to keep to those kinds of budgets. I'm makiing different choices and they have different costs. And I can afford them.
Thats good to know, you are kind of in our ball park. Our spending did not include big vacations, we had two small ones that totalled $1,000.

[catherine]

I track my expenses to the penny, and I "have" to spend $68.5k annually before I even get out of bed. The reason I know this is because my budget is split into "Needs" "Wants" "Debt Repayment" and "Savings"--the Warren model in "All Your Worth." I've watched my needs creep up from $5k a month to now they're almost $6k. The increase is based on rising healthcare (insurance, Rxes, quarterly procedures for DH). Then I have $3k to run the house (mortgage, property taxes, utilities). I include a line-item for "basic food", and "basic home needs" and "basic clothing needs" Those "basic" categories are very low, based on bare minimum requirements.

I'd like to say that I never spend anything in the "Wants" category ($1k/month), but I do--many of you might think that's WAY too high. But DH is a smoker, so that takes up a few hundred a month. We do spend on "Splurge Food" from time to time--trips to the Chinese restaurant or convenience store. And I refuse to sacrifice irreplaceable memories (like the occasional trip to see the kids up north) just to satisfy the IRS. Even so, I'm still paying down debt at a rate of about $3k-5k a month depending upon how my freelancing is going.
"

[Teacher Terry]

When people on MM retire young with tiny budgets I wonder if years later they will be sorry because they will be forced to live on so little or go back to work. When we were young we had to be on a tight budget so I know what that is like and it's not fun.

[freshstart]

I wonder how they will get jobs having been out of the workforce so long

[Teacher Terry]

Yes there definitely is that issue too.

[Ultralight]

So I moved to the new place on Saturday.

I had to buy a bunch of stuff. Yeah, I am basically a Hoarder now.

[jp1]

When people on MM retire young with tiny budgets I wonder if years later they will be sorry because they will be forced to live on so little or go back to work. When we were young we had to be on a tight budget so I know what that is like and it's not fun.

I wonder this too. Especially since they will be getting very low payments from social security, which is based off the average of your highest 35 years of earnings. If you only have 15 years of earnings that's a whole lot of zeros averaged in.

[jp1]

So I moved to the new place on Saturday.

I had to buy a bunch of stuff. Yeah, I am basically a Hoarder now.

Time for a housewarming party. With gifts!

[Ultralight]

A friend came over and we fried up some fish, along with having some potato salad, cole slaw, and some baked beans. I splurged on some juicy, sweet organic blackberries for dessert. So I would say that was housewarming party-ish enough for me. :)

[freshstart]

So I moved to the new place on Saturday.

I had to buy a bunch of stuff. Yeah, I am basically a Hoarder now.

come on, I'm sure you counted, what number of possessions are you up to?

[Ultralight]

Probably in the 160 to 165 range. I have not re-counted yet. haha

[jp1]

A friend came over and we fried up some fish, along with having some potato salad, cole slaw, and some baked beans. I splurged on some juicy, sweet organic blackberries for dessert. So I would say that was housewarming party-ish enough for me. :)

That sounds like a pretty awesome housewarming to me. And to a fellow introvert just about the right number of guests.

[freshstart]

it sure does!

[Ultralight]

My sis and BIL came over too, obviously.

[LDAHL]

Why is it called a "housewarming"? Did there used to be some ceremonial lighting of the hearth fire?

[Williamsmith]

Why is it called a "housewarming"? Did there used to be some ceremonial lighting of the hearth fire?

A warming of the "heart."

[jp1]

Why is it called a "housewarming"? Did there used to be some ceremonial lighting of the hearth fire?

According to wikipedia: The term "housewarming" is descended literally from the act of warming a new house, in the days before central heating. Each guest would bring firewood, and build fires in all the available fireplaces, offering firewood as a gift. Aside from warming the house, this was also believed to repel evil spirits by creating a protective atmosphere of warmth. Uninhabited houses were considered targets for vagrant spirits, and therefore used to require a certain level of cleansing before a house was safe to be occupied by young children.[2] The origin is from the medieval times.

[LDAHL]

According to wikipedia: The term "housewarming" is descended literally from the act of warming a new house, in the days before central heating. Each guest would bring firewood, and build fires in all the available fireplaces, offering firewood as a gift. Aside from warming the house, this was also believed to repel evil spirits by creating a protective atmosphere of warmth. Uninhabited houses were considered targets for vagrant spirits, and therefore used to require a certain level of cleansing before a house was safe to be occupied by young children.[2] The origin is from the medieval times.

That's interesting. It makes you wonder how many ancient rituals we take part in without realizing it.

[Ultralight]

My sis, BIL, and one of their friends always "break bread" at a new apartment or house when one moves. They literally get some small European style loaf of bread, then one of them breaks it into a few pieces, and they munch away.

[LDAHL]

There's an old Catholic tradition of burying a statue of St. Joseph upside down, to facilitate the sale of your house.

[freshstart]

There's an old Catholic tradition of burying a statue of St. Joseph upside down, to facilitate the sale of your house.

this was a Catholic major FAIL for me, I even buried two. Dug them up and turned them around just in case that was it. It wasn't, lol

then again my belief in God is shaky and I certainly do not believe he helps you out with real estate deals

[LDAHL]

this was a Catholic major FAIL for me, I even buried two. Dug them up and turned them around just in case that was it. It wasn't, lol

then again my belief in God is shaky and I certainly do not believe he helps you out with real estate deals

Maybe they cancelled each other out via metaphysical interference. It's a fairly technical procedure.

[freshstart]

lol, dueling St Josephs

[Teacher Terry]

I am not Catholic but when our house wasn't selling and the realtor told me to do that I did. Desperate times:|(.

[catherine]

There's an old Catholic tradition of burying a statue of St. Joseph upside down, to facilitate the sale of your house.

So that's why MILs house sat on the market for 3 years and impoverished me! No St. Joseph statue--but then again, if I had buried one, my MIL would have come back to haunt me.

[Ultralight]

In my new neighborhood I can bike to:

Work
Target
Kroger
Pharmacy
Whole Foods
Two bike shops
A used book store
Two pet supplies stores

This is just what I have explored so far on my bike!

[Tammy]

That would be enough for me to sell the car! :)

[Ultralight]

I had to buy so much stuff for my apartment to be livable. I feel like a total hoarder.

[ToomuchStuff]

I had to buy so much stuff for my apartment to be livable. I feel like a total hoarder.

Figure out what you need and then decide to feel like a self made (not self actuallized), person. Not a borrower or as a consistent borrower is called here, a moocher.

[Miss Cellane]

I had to buy so much stuff for my apartment to be livable. I feel like a total hoarder.

Nope. If you need something in order to live, or even just to live comfortably, then you are not hoarding.

I know your background plays into this. And with the new apartment, and not being completely on your own in your last living situation, you have probably had to buy more things in the past few weeks than you have purchased in the past few months.

That does not make you a hoarder.

Get what you need to live in the new place. Then, if it would help, don't buy anything except the necessities, like food, for the next three months. Things will even out.

[freshstart]

I like that advice

[Ultralight]

I was mostly joking. I have the basics, but I needed a couple more basics -- like more than one spoon.

[catherine]

In my new neighborhood I can bike to:

Work
Target
Kroger
Pharmacy
Whole Foods
Two bike shops
A used book store
Two pet supplies stores

This is just what I have explored so far on my bike!

I'm thinking of Braveheart right now... FREEDOM!!!!

[Ultralight]

Uh... the torture scene?

[ToomuchStuff]

I was mostly joking. I have the basics, but I needed a couple more basics -- like more than one spoon.

Hint, you might try using those smiley things, when your not serious. It is much harder to determine a tone from the written word.;)

[Ultralight]

I just rode my bike to main campus. Only like 7 miles round trip.

[Packratona!]

Two advantages. You can easily walk the mile to work. Minus the car you save and minimize exposure to costly repairs, and eliminate costly insurance. And your discretionary income will probably decrease which should also decrease your income based student loan monthly payment which could offset any increase in housing costs you incur. And finally, if you do develop a new relationship, you can halve the costs if they move in with you.

"they"?

[19Sandy]

Now it is a 15 month lease. :(

In my state, landlords can increase rent at anytime!

[Miss Cellane]

In my state, landlords can increase rent at anytime!


Wow! Even if you have a lease? In most states, the rent can't be raised until the lease has expired. Are there any limitations on how much they can raise the rent?

[iris lilies]

I just read the saga of a landlord in California who spent 5 years getting a nonpayng tenant out of his property. This was a professinal squatter who knew how to work the system. Wow. It is on the Bigger Pockets website that focuses on landlording issues.

I ink that 19Sandy is probably not in
Califrnia where the laws favor tenants to the extreme. Our friends sold their San Francisco triplex because tenant laws were tying their hands.

[catherine]

I just read the saga of a landlord in California who spent 5 years getting a nonpayng tenant out of his property. This was a professinal squatter who knew how to work the system. Wow. It is on the Bigger Pockets website that focuses on landlording issues.



That was one of the disasters that befelled us when were trying to sell MIL's house. We had been renting it to two people who wound up subletting rooms to Medicaid/low income people. They had locks on every door. They had someone sleeping on the enclosed front porch.

When we told them we weren't renewing the lease because we were planning on selling everyone got out--except one. She threw herself on our mercy, saying that "she didn't know" she had to be out. My DH is a real softie, and he not only gave her a month to get out, but HE TURNED THE POWER BACK ON! Big mistake because from that point on, he was not allowed to turn it off to encourage to leave.

Well, it took us months and a lawyer to get her out. Turns out she was an addict and drug dealers were coming to our house to supply her. Her social services advocate told her to stand her ground and advised her that we had no rights vs her right to just sit her a$$ in our house while we lost the whole fall selling season.

[iris lilies]

That was one of the disasters that befelled us when were trying to sell MIL's house. We had been renting it to two people who wound up subletting rooms to Medicaid/low income people. They had locks on every door. They had someone sleeping on the enclosed front porch.

When we told them we weren't renewing the lease because we were planning on selling everyone got out--except one. She threw herself on our mercy, saying that "she didn't know" she had to be out. My DH is a real softie, and he not only gave her a month to get out, but HE TURNED THE POWER BACK ON! Big mistake because from that point on, he was not allowed to turn it off to encourage to leave.

Well, it took us months and a lawyer to get her out. Turns out she was an addict and drug dealers were coming to our house to supply her. Her social services advocate told her to stand her ground and advised her that we had no rights vs her right to just sit her a$$ in our house while we lost the whole fall selling season.

You are just a money hungry 1%-er. I am so glad that you were paying, with your tax dollars, a social services professional to advise her. Power to the people!

haha, kidding. But I think In Bernie's utopia there would be more of this. Fortunately, landlord-tenant laws are still state and locally determined, for now anyway, until big federal Namny G. tries to take that over as well.

[Float On]

Wish removing non-paying scum was as easy as it was in the early 70's. My dad told some tenants the bulldozer would arrive at 9 a.m. on Tuesday. They didn't quite believe him and ended up having to pull stuff out as the far end of the house was being torn down.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Landlords can raise rents in California anytime they want, unless it's a rent controlled area or apartment. If and only if there is rent control then rent increases are limited otherwise good luck getting the law on your side. But sometimes squatters? Well massive amounts of property is being bought by Chinese money and the like and sitting idle, sometimes squatters move in, and no one notices for years and years because no one is there.

Although squatting might be one way to get free rent, the main way to get free rent was to become a "homeowner", banks were not foreclosing for years (like 3 years "homeowners" would sit in homes and not pay their mortgages - most renters would kill for such a deal) as the banks didn't want to mark the assets to market or flood the market.

[iris lilies]

Landlords can raise rents in California anytime they want, unless it's a rent controlled area or apartment. If and only if there is rent control then rent increases are limited otherwise good luck getting the law on your side. But sometimes squatters? Well massive amounts of property is being bought by Chinese money and the like and sitting idle, sometimes squatters move in, and no one notices for years and years because no one is there.

Although squatting might be one way to get free rent, the main way to get free rent was to become a "homeowner", banks were not foreclosing for years (like 3 years "homeowners" would sit in homes and not pay their mortgages) as the banks didn't want to mark the assets to market or flood the market.
Really? They can raise rent within a lease period?

And rent control is all over in SF.

[ApatheticNoMore]

not within a lease period which is 6 months to a year maybe, after that.

[jp1]

The standard in CA is to get a one year lease that then becomes month to month after the year is up. So the first year the rent is fixed but after that it's not.

Rent control in SF is only for buildings built before 1979.