Another Tale of Financial Woe [Archive]

LDAHL

4-27-16, 5:18pm

This article has been exciting a lot of comment at the Early Retirement Forum:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/05/my-secret-shame/476415/

An upper middle class guy makes thirty years of bad decisions and then writes about the sad result.

"We all make those sorts of choices, and they obviously affect, even determine, our bottom line. But, without getting too metaphysical about it, these are the choices that define who we are. We don’t make them with our financial well-being in mind, though maybe we should. We make them with our lives in mind. The alternative is to be another person."

It aroused a lot of discussion there and elsewhere (I think I saw reactions at Slate and Bloomberg). One guy even went so far as to post all the liens against the author and the Zillow estimate of the value of his house in the Hamptons.

I have some sympathy for the guy, but insisting on a place in the Hamptons and Ivy League educations bought on credit define who you are as a person makes me think there's more going on here than unfortunate macroeconomic trends.

Ultralight

4-27-16, 5:32pm

This is going to be interesting!

ApatheticNoMore

4-27-16, 5:50pm

He's probably shall we say not a very representative sample of those who can't find an extra $400. So it's mostly an essay about himself.

I don't know if they were entirely bad decisions. Afterall he does have a house in the Hampton's (which might BE his retirement if he sold it and moved elsewhere but apparently he can't do this because he hasn't paid his mortgage I guess) and an interesting career, they are just decisions that I don't think most people relate to.

Ultralight

4-27-16, 6:01pm

That $400 thing scares the beJesus out of me.

A close acquaintance of mine is really into disaster prep. The dude gardens like a champ, cycles an eternity, has a good social support group, and just for kicks he had me teach him to shoot shotguns.

But the main thing he stresses is an emergency fund -- cash on hand and a good-sized savings account. He says: "Cash can solve a lot of problems -- short of a Mad Max-style collapse."

His influence helped me to set back a good emergency fund for crazy shtuff that happens!

So people need to get them that $400.

Okay, I am going to go and read the article in full.

herbgeek

4-27-16, 7:05pm

I really would love to be sympathetic to this guy. But he lived WAY over his means, all within his control. He wanted his wife to not work, wanted to buy a coop in New York and before selling that, buy a house in the Hamptons. His kids were too good for state colleges. He took out money from his 401K for a wedding. It was an accumulation of such decisions that puts him where he is now.

I don't do those sorts of things, because I want to be able to have $400 available to pay for an emergency.

iris lilies

4-27-16, 7:09pm

Just another entitled Boomer. Why these people think they deserve all of this chit is beyond me.

ANM, when he was in debt he threw $20,000+ at his daughter's wedding. because she deserved it, no doubt. That was an entirely bad decision.

There was a couple in my neighborhood who bought a big Victorian house, found that the foundation needed to be propped up ($$$) and also had a daughter "getting married" which in America-speak means a costly party.

I kept scratching my head, thinking "but doesnt this house emergency trump big wedding?" Nope, it did not. The dad took a part time job at Home Depot to pay for the party.

My neighbor across the street retired a few more months beyond when he could have. He worked longer to pay for a blowout wedding for his daigher.

i hope that these prIncesses appreciate the sacrifice of their fathers.

ApatheticNoMore

4-27-16, 7:21pm

I wouldn't even properly qualify this lifestyle as middle class so I think the headline itself is misleading, maybe some kind of upper middle class (and I wonder if even that might be way underestimating how expensive that lifestyle is - maybe you need to be rich). To actually afford that lifestyle I'm sure you have to be very far from any median income at any rate.

"The Secret Shame of Middle-Class Americans

Nearly half of Americans would have trouble finding $400 to pay for an emergency. I’m one of them."

And I suspect a lot of those people who would have trouble finding $400 are not middle class either, they are poor. But some middle class people may as well, but this guy isn't living like a middle class person.

Yea the wedding was ridiculous. I suppose you can say they value marriage ... a little too much! But the writer is completely inept with finances. The thing is there are probably many ways to make a house in the Hamptons a good investment (that are far beyond most people means) like paying the mortgage on it and selling it. But he didn't seem able to do that.

Teacher Terry

4-27-16, 7:44pm

This is a popular thread on Mr. MM as well. He talked his parents into paying for his daughter's expensive college. I hope they could afford it. I think that was a terrible thing to do.

jp1

4-27-16, 10:12pm

What a terribly depressing article. And not just the author's idiocy. But things like this: "A 2011 study she and a colleague conducted measuring knowledge of fundamental financial principles (compound interest, risk diversification, and the effects of inflation) found that 65 percent of Americans ages 25 to 65 were financial illiterates." How on earth can we expect high school seniors to understand the risks of student loans when 2/3 of their parents don't understand basic financial concepts and we don't teach them in school. Sure, we can say "they signed the paperwork, they're responsible." But that doesn't strike me as something a moral society would do given the extreme lack of knowledge on this topic.

Lainey

4-27-16, 10:26pm

. . . But things like this: A 2011 study she and a colleague conducted measuring knowledge of fundamental financial principles (compound interest, risk diversification, and the effects of inflation) found that 65 percent of Americans ages 25 to 65 were financial illiterates. How on earth can we expect high school seniors to understand the risks of student loans when 2/3 of their parents don't understand basic financial concepts and we don't teach them in school. Sure, we can say "they signed the paperwork, they're responsible." But that doesn't strike me as something a moral society would do given the extreme lack of knowledge on this topic.

Agree with the basics needing to be taught in school. But it's also the reason the federal Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was founded. www.consumerfinance.gov

There are a lot of people making a lot of money from payday loans, high-interest, high penalty student loans, etc. Federal regulations help prevent this type of financial predatory behavior - that's why the profiteers fought so hard against this bureau.

catherine

4-28-16, 7:25am

Williamsmith

4-28-16, 8:32am

As most of you know a lot of this article hits close to home (the no savings, the debt, the diversion of IRS payments to another emergency need, racking up penalties and interest, etc.) So I read this with great interest. I'm not going to throw stones at the guy, that's for sure.

I pledged money to my kids' wedding, (but it was 5k, not 20k)
I stupidly wrote that blank check for my DDs expensive private college education (but I would be affronted to let any other relative pick it up for me)

But I guess I can smugly say that I would find it VERY easy to come up with $400 for an emergency. In fact, being a Dave Ramsey fan, when I started digging myself out of my hole, I created that Baby Emergency Fund of $1000. I have 11 one hundred dollar bills stashed in my lingerie drawer. But on top of that, I've been throwing money into an online savings account (for car replacement) from time to time and it's up to $4000. AND in order to minimize my IRS bill, I've started a couple of years ago maxing out my IRA contribution of $6500. AND as a freelancer, I've managed to have a "hills and valleys" fund of about 9 months of living expenses. Those survival techniques are all based on the advice I've learned from Dave Ramsey.

Maybe someone needs to send this guy a copy of the Total Money Makeover. :)

I applaud everything you have done here and not really knowing the circumstances still think you deserve an IRS forgiveness negotiation.

But I do have one bone to pick......don't keep your cash in your lingerie drawer. A thief will find it in a heartbeat. Perhaps Use a mayonnaise jar with a false bottom and keep it in the refrigerator. As an extra protection get one of those small safes and bolt it to the floor in an easy to find location. Put nothing of value in it. The thief will expend valuable time prying the safe off the floor and it will cut short his efforts in ransacking the home. Time is his enemy, waste it for him.

catherine

4-28-16, 9:00am

But I do have one bone to pick......don't keep your cash in your lingerie drawer. A thief will find it in a heartbeat. Perhaps Use a mayonnaise jar with a false bottom and keep it in the refrigerator. As an extra protection get one of those small safes and bolt it to the floor in an easy to find location. Put nothing of value in it. The thief will expend valuable time prying the safe off the floor and it will cut short his efforts in ransacking the home. Time is his enemy, waste it for him.

Thanks for the suggestions.. It's actually hidden in a little tin toy, but still, I'm sure the thief would question why a toy would be in a lingerie drawer--perhaps I should blend it in with my grandson's toys.. but then again. he'd find it!

I think I have a fake soup can somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

Re the IRS forgiveness, my CPA told me that if had 2-3 years of "good behavior" I'd be in a better position to negotiate, so I'm going to just be a good girl for the next year or two and then try for penalty abatement.

SteveinMN

4-28-16, 9:28am

Sure, we can say "they signed the paperwork, they're responsible." But that doesn't strike me as something a moral society would do given the extreme lack of knowledge on this topic.
I see it as entirely in keeping with the common attitude that people deserve what happens to them: that poor people would not be poor if only they'd work harder; that chronic illness is the result of weakness of character (including such "fixable" character flaws such as being gay or having a family history of disease X).

I'm not defending this guy; his priorities were misplaced, at best, and, for whatever reason, he didn't have the financial literacy to see his way out of his situation. But, as a society, we don't seem to be terribly interested in lifting others up.

LDAHL

4-28-16, 9:32am

I think financial literacy has an important place, especially in areas like investing and tax planning. But, while this guy pleads ignorance to an extent (along with an interesting combination of entitlement and victimhood) should it really come as a surprise to anyone that digging that kind of hole has consequences? There was no subtle nuance here, just a guy wanting what he wanted when he wanted it. A Wharton MBA won't save you from that.

We don't require any special training to know how to lose weight. We just don't like doing what's required. I understand that many people wind up in bad circumstances through no fault of their own, but at least in a case like this isn't it fair to call it a question of character?

I try to work to lift others up where I can through organizations to help people willing to put in the sweat equity needed to obtain housing and education. I really don't feel much of an obligation for a person who feels he "deserves" things he can't pay for.

iris lilies

4-28-16, 9:37am

I see it as entirely in keeping with the common attitude that people deserve what happens to them: that poor people would not be poor if only they'd work harder; that chronic illness is the result of weakness of character (including such "fixable" character flaws such as being gay or having a family history of disease X).

I'm not defending this guy; his priorities were misplaced, at best, and, for whatever reason, he didn't have the financial literacy to see his way out of his situation. But, as a society, we don't seem to be terribly interested in lifting others up.
Sweet Mother Jesus, this dude already is "up""and over me by a long shot. I will never have a house in the Hamptons nor will I attend toney parties in Manhatten or be married to someone who has had such an important career that she cannot take just any old iob.

I guarantee you that this man had plenty of opportunity for "financial literacy" but chose not to accept the lessons. His choice, his consequences, Do NOT put that on me.

catherine

4-28-16, 9:57am

We don't require any special training to know how to lose weight. We just don't like doing what's required. I understand that many people wind up in bad circumstances through no fault of their own, but at least in a case like this isn't it fair to call it a question of character?

I just spent the past weekend with old college friends. Our host lives in Richmond, so we went to Monticello. Of course it came up about Jefferson's enormous debt that he died with ($1M+ in today's dollars). His heirs had to sell off everything to pay it off, and even then it wasn't all paid off.

My friend asked the tour guide what contributed to the debt and it was a number of things--back then you could inherit debt, which Jefferson did, from his father; he had expensive passions like art and architecture, the tobacco industry went through a couple of depressions and his own land had to be converted to wheat because he practiced monoculture for so many years, raping the soil. He cosigned a 20k note for a friend who defaulted.

OTOH, his long-time friend/foe/co-signer of the Declaration of Independence/fellow deathbed buddy John Adams died in solvency, and from what i understand he was the frugal type.

Anyone want to argue the characters of Jefferson v Adams? Jefferson was a genius, but financial literacy obviously wasn't one of his core competencies. So is he a bad guy? Sometimes it's a combination of things that just blindsides us. We often collude with Fate to put us in these predicaments, but sh*t happens. Sometimes we learn from our karmic lessons and sometimes we lose.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 10:10am

lessisbest should chime in on this thread!

LDAHL

4-28-16, 10:22am

Alan

4-28-16, 10:22am

lessisbest should chime in on this thread!
She will, when she's ready.

jp1

4-28-16, 10:23am

lessisbest should chime in on this thread!

I think she'd tell him he needs to do more than get rid of the dog.

jp1

4-28-16, 10:31am

I think financial literacy has an important place, especially in areas like investing and tax planning.

For a majority of Americans probably the most important thing that they could learn from a financial planning perspective would be compound interest and the fact that it swings both ways. And maybe secondarily that when the fed keeps interest rates at zero that only means savings interest rates will be at zero, but debt interest rates will still be as high as they ever were.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 10:35am

I'm not saying being bad with money makes you a bad person overall. I am saying that I have limited sympathy for someone suffering from the predictable consequences of that particular character flaw. Spending other people's money on luxuries and not paying it back represents a character flaw in my mind, justify it however you like.

I would have sympathy for this schlub if he was just some workin' man who came from nothing and was just trying to make ends meet and someday get ahead.

But this guy seems like he did massively dumb stuff. Massively!

I grew up knowing only one financial lesson -- credit cards are bad news!

Everything else I had to learn on my own. Not learning financial smarts when you are a kid from your parents is just a massive setback in so many ways that is largely out of your control until you maybe wise up in time to teach yourself.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 10:36am

I think she'd tell him he needs to do more than get rid of the dog.

Probably... but I would tell him to give up so much other stupid crap and keep the dog if at all possible.

That is how I roll!

catherine

4-28-16, 10:45am

I'm not saying being bad with money makes you a bad person overall. I am saying that I have limited sympathy for someone suffering from the predictable consequences of that particular character flaw. Spending other people's money on luxuries and not paying it back represents a character flaw in my mind, justify it however you like.

I agree with you that willfully not repaying debt you sign up for is wrong. But we live in a world where you are expected to go into debt, and you are in fact constantly bombarded with messages that whatever you want is yours for the taking. Yes, we all have the ability to say no, but it's like taunting someone with cake and then criticizing them when they finds it hard to refuse.

I think religions that consider usury a sin might be on to something, as is Shakespeare: "Neither a borrower nor a lender be." It's not easy to accomplish that in our society, that's all.

Maybe I'll go back and read lessisbest's post.

iris lilies

4-28-16, 10:47am

I just spent the past weekend with old college friends. Our host lives in Richmond, so we went to Monticello. Of course it came up about Jefferson's enormous debt that he died with ($1M+ in today's dollars). His heirs had to sell off everything to pay it off, and even then it wasn't all paid off.

My friend asked the tour guide what contributed to the debt and it was a number of things--back then you could inherit debt, which Jefferson did, from his father; he had expensive passions like art and architecture, the tobacco industry went through a couple of depressions and his own land had to be converted to wheat because he practiced monoculture for so many years, raping the soil. He cosigned a 20k note for a friend who defaulted.

OTOH, his long-time friend/foe/co-signer of the Declaration of Independence/fellow deathbed buddy John Adams died in solvency, and from what i understand he was the frugal type.

Anyone want to argue the characters of Jefferson v Adams? Jefferson was a genius, but financial literacy obviously wasn't one of his core competencies. So is he a bad guy? Sometimes it's a combination of things that just blindsides us. We often collude with Fate to put us in these predicaments, but sh*t happens. Sometimes we learn from our karmic lessons and sometimes we lose.

Financial responsibility is ONE criteria I use to judge character, not the only one.Thomas Jefferson has several problems as a man and as a historical figure, but I will not dismiss him as a great man for our country due to these issues.

we are all a sum of our parts.

the Hamptons dwelling author made himself known to me for his financial problems, so of course thats what I will comment on, its all I know of him. Well, I did look up his books and he was published by an academic press so he likely didnt make much from those books. His contributions to scholarship would be important to some, I am indifferent.

Im sure he and the wife throw fascinating dinner parties, so there is that.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 10:50am

Maybe I'll go back and read lessisbest's post.

Be careful. You don't want to meet my fate as a "financial and relationship loser." hahaha

LDAHL

4-28-16, 10:57am

I would have sympathy for this schlub if he was just some workin' man who came from nothing and was just trying to make ends meet and someday get ahead.

But this guy seems like he did massively dumb stuff. Massively!

I grew up knowing only one financial lesson -- credit cards are bad news!

Everything else I had to learn on my own. Not learning financial smarts when you are a kid from your parents is just a massive setback in so many ways that is largely out of your control until you maybe wise up in time to teach yourself.

I can somewhat sympathize with him on the Eternal Dad Conundrum of wanting the best for your kids while at the same time teaching them by example that life is a matter of difficult choices. He seems to have come down on giving them all they "deserved" and damn the consequences. I'm not sure the benefits of degrees from Harvard and Emory outweigh the example of begging from your parents, stiffing the IRS, and generally consuming more than you can produce over a career to maintain your status.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 11:05am

I can somewhat sympathize with him on the Eternal Dad Conundrum of wanting the best for your kids while at the same time teaching them by example that life is a matter of difficult choices. He seems to have come down on giving them all they "deserved" and damn the consequences. I'm not sure the benefits of degrees from Harvard and Emory outweigh the example of begging from your parents, stiffing the IRS, and generally consuming more than you can produce over a career to maintain your status.

Wacky as it is, I largely agree with you here. haha

jp1

4-28-16, 11:29am

As the author himself points out, he's probably not a good example of the real struggles that many families have. It's hard to feel empathy for someone who earned the income he did, made the stupid decisions he did, and finds himself in his place.

But there are lots of other families who actually do deserve our empathy, but generally in our society, as Steve pointed out, only blame is forthcoming. The CFPB is a good first step but more needs to be done. After what we did to save the big banks I don't have much sympathy for the whines of "people take on debt, they should be responsible enough to pay it back."

LDAHL

4-28-16, 11:49am

I don't have much sympathy for the whines of "people take on debt, they should be responsible enough to pay it back."

But until that happy day when Elizabeth Warren puts us all on an allowance, what are we to do?

Tighter credit standards? Fantasy-interest, payment-optional taxpayer-funded loan programs? Making most of the big stuff free government gifts to eliminate the need to borrow?

What's wrong with expecting everybody, high and low, to honor their word on contracts?

ToomuchStuff

4-28-16, 11:52am

I couldn't even bother to finish reading the thing. I don't need my blood pressure up, due to someone else's self caused problems, there by writing an article that sounds like they are going to start hitting us up for money. (my lack of planning, becomes your emergency) I see that frequently.
Already dealing with that today from work (need you to pick up x tool, because we gave ours away, like the idiot you thought we were for doing it).

Now the money raising part, well that is a whole other matter, because of the where and why question. A friend on the east coast has a bar he hangs out in.
When Hurricane Sandy hit, he would go down to drink and see a steady supply of people coming in, trying to pay with plastic, when there was no power. (no way to use plastic) He has always had a cash stash, as he is one of the ones I know with a trust fund.
I used to have a much larger cash stash, but recently converted it to my debit card (basically matching the debit card account, with my credit card limit). I am considering giving up the CC all together, since I have never had a large credit limit, always paid on time, never borrowed a large sum (last time I bought a car via loan was $1100 at the worst time in my life, paid off quick, mortgage wasn't through bank and paid off), I don't have a "stellar" credit score and would probably be better off with no credit score. (how it effects things like insurance)
Currently it is about $300. I have access to more (bank, work, etc) if needed, but those could be different if we had a Sandy type event.
I am just more wary about having a debit card on the web, then a CC, personally.

jp1

4-28-16, 12:05pm

But until that happy day when Elizabeth Warren puts us all on an allowance, what are we to do?

Tighter credit standards? Fantasy-interest, payment-optional taxpayer-funded loan programs? Making most of the big stuff free government gifts to eliminate the need to borrow?

What's wrong with expecting everybody, high and low, to honor their word on contracts?

Better usury laws and financial education classes in high school would be a good start. As ULA pointed out, if your parents are financially illiterate, as are 65% of parents, it's unlikely they will teach you much, just as a written language illiterate parent isn't likely to teach their kids to read.

And I'm all for expecting everybody, high and low, to honor their word. But, of course, we don't expect everyone high and low to honor their word. If we did there would be no more too big to fail banks. They'd've all gone out of business about 8 years ago or so and people with better business skills would've bought up the worthwhile assets for cheap and probably be doing a better job of operating them. And the worthless assets would've gone away in the bankruptcies, teaching stupid investors a valuable lesson. Instead the worthless assets wound up on the fed's balance sheet and everyone on wall street went on with life as if it was no big deal. Bonuses for everyone! Whoopeee! But not for the dumbass little guy making $40k/year who got behind on his bills because he couldn't afford a $2,000 car repair. **** him. He's just a lazy ass who deserves what he got.

LDAHL

4-28-16, 12:26pm

Better usury laws and financial education classes in high school would be a good start. As ULA pointed out, if your parents are financially illiterate, as are 65% of parents, it's unlikely they will teach you much, just as a written language illiterate parent isn't likely to teach their kids to read.

And I'm all for expecting everybody, high and low, to honor their word. But, of course, we don't expect everyone high and low to honor their word. If we did there would be no more too big to fail banks. They'd've all gone out of business about 8 years ago or so and people with better business skills would've bought up the worthwhile assets for cheap and probably be doing a better job of operating them. And the worthless assets would've gone away in the bankruptcies, teaching stupid investors a valuable lesson. Instead the worthless assets wound up on the fed's balance sheet and everyone on wall street went on with life as if it was no big deal. Bonuses for everyone! Whoopeee! But not for the dumbass little guy making $40k/year who got behind on his bills because he couldn't afford a $2,000 car repair. **** him. He's just a lazy ass who deserves what he got.

I agree with much of this. It would have been better for some financial institutions, unions, manufacturers and others to go the way of Lehman Brothers. The short-term suffering would have been more than offset by the longer-term misery we could have saved ourselves. We now have years of giddy class warfare, regulatory strangulation and monetary tomfoolery ahead of us.

catherine

4-28-16, 12:35pm

And I'm all for expecting everybody, high and low, to honor their word. But, of course, we don't expect everyone high and low to honor their word. If we did there would be no more too big to fail banks. They'd've all gone out of business about 8 years ago or so and people with better business skills would've bought up the worthwhile assets for cheap and probably be doing a better job of operating them. And the worthless assets would've gone away in the bankruptcies, teaching stupid investors a valuable lesson. Instead the worthless assets wound up on the fed's balance sheet and everyone on wall street went on with life as if it was no big deal. Bonuses for everyone! Whoopeee! But not for the dumbass little guy making $40k/year who got behind on his bills because he couldn't afford a $2,000 car repair. **** him. He's just a lazy ass who deserves what he got.

+1

Teacher Terry

4-28-16, 1:09pm

I am usually the first person to feel sorry for people when they get in binds. However, there is no way I feel sorry for this guy. His wife could get a job, they could move, he shouldn't have paid for wedding with his 401k, etc. He could probably sell his home, move somewhere cheaper and be better off. I really dislike the fact that he talked his parents into paying for an expensive college for his daughter. It really makes me wonder if they could afford it. This guy does not deserve any empathy.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 1:32pm

catherine

4-28-16, 1:46pm

My dad wanted me to be a Ju Jitsu prodigy. So he put me in martial arts classes -- Ju Jitsu to learn all the moves and techniques. He put me in Tae Kwon Do, Ken Po, Tang Soo Do, etc. so I could learn how to take these other styles down and grapple them with Ju Jitsu.

I was going to classes every day. He bought be punching bags and other equipment to lift weights and improve my agility.

And you know what? I became the champion of the US at age 17 for my weight and age bracket.

For some reason having a son who was a Ju Jitsu prodigy was important to my dad. So he made sure martial arts knowledge was invested in me.

He did not do any of the sort for financial knowledge. I had virtually no control over this. Parents make choices. Kids have to live with them for all the logistical reasons but also because they don't know any better. They are just kids!

I'd perhaps be better off he we skipped one day of martial arts classes and met up with a financial adviser.

I love your story. I hope you enjoyed martial arts. There's always a fine line parents walk between encouraging their kids in worthwhile activities and fulfilling their own dreams. You have to watch them very carefully and assess their own natural talents and desires. Sometimes there's a conflict between their natural talents and desires. We (DH and I) were stage parents for about 15 years and 2 of our kids were quite successful in plays and movies. They definitely had natural talent and we tried to discern their true desire to do it.

I knew some fellow stage parents who did it because it paid for their kids' education. Some considered the activity as akin to families working together on a farm. But I learned that child acting is not a money-making proposition unless you're Shirley Temple or Macauley Culkin. And it's not really working together on a farm. I remember renting a pager so my two older kids could page me to ask if they could order pizza. They were totally unsupervised in the evenings at ages 15 and 17, and they had to page their mother for pizza while their siblings performed at Lincoln Center. So, yes, they contributed to the "farm" but not in the way that I would have liked.

Kind of a ramble. Point being: if you think your "gifts" (tangible and intangible) are contributing to the financial well-being of your children, you really have to examine your motives.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 1:59pm

I love your story. I hope you enjoyed martial arts. There's always a fine line parents walk between encouraging their kids in worthwhile activities and fulfilling their own dreams. You have to watch them very carefully and assess their own natural talents and desires. Sometimes there's a conflict between their natural talents and desires. We (DH and I) were stage parents for about 15 years and 2 of our kids were quite successful in plays and movies. They definitely had natural talent and we tried to discern their true desire to do it.

I knew some fellow stage parents who did it because it paid for their kids' education. Some considered the activity as akin to families working together on a farm. But I learned that child acting is not a money-making proposition unless you're Shirley Temple or Macauley Culkin. And it's not really working together on a farm. I remember renting a pager so my two older kids could page me to ask if they could order pizza. They were totally unsupervised in the evenings at ages 15 and 17, and they had to page their mother for pizza while their siblings performed at Lincoln Center. So, yes, they contributed to the "farm" but not in the way that I would have liked.

Kind of a ramble. Point being: if you think your "gifts" (tangible and intangible) are contributing to the financial well-being of your children, you really have to examine your motives.

That is a heck of a story too, and a good point.

For my dad I think it was certainly associated with his love for old imported Kung Fu movies. But also I think he was like: "My son thinks differently than other kids, maybe he has a 'Ju Jitsu brain'."

In Ju Jitsu you have to think several movements ahead -- both your opponent's moves and your own. I had a strange knack for this. haha

I enjoyed it some, but at about age 18 I wanted to close that chapter and start a new one. My dad has never forgiven or forgotten when it comes to me closing that chapter.

iris lilies

4-28-16, 2:02pm

I love your story. I hope you enjoyed martial arts. There's always a fine line parents walk between encouraging their kids in worthwhile activities and fulfilling their own dreams. You have to watch them very carefully and assess their own natural talents and desires. Sometimes there's a conflict between their natural talents and desires. We (DH and I) were stage parents for about 15 years and 2 of our kids were quite successful in plays and movies. They definitely had natural talent and we tried to discern their true desire to do it.

I knew some fellow stage parents who did it because it paid for their kids' education. Some considered the activity as akin to families working together on a farm. But I learned that child acting is not a money-making proposition unless you're Shirley Temple or Macauley Culkin. And it's not really working together on a farm. I remember renting a pager so my two older kids could page me to ask if they could order pizza. They were totally unsupervised in the evenings at ages 15 and 17, and they had to page their mother for pizza while their siblings performed at Lincoln Center. So, yes, they contributed to the "farm" but not in the way that I would have liked.

Kind of a ramble. Point being: if you think your "gifts" (tangible and intangible) are contributing to the financial well-being of your children, you really have to examine your motives.
I dont see whats wrong with a 15 and 17 year old staying home doing homework and probably some dishes and laundry, and ordering pizza. They could always have learned some simple cooking, and Ill bet they did.

DH who really DID work on his family farm was driving the tractor at 5 years old, and he was small for his age.

catherine

4-28-16, 2:14pm

I dont see whats wrong with a 15 and 17 year old staying home doing homework and probably some dishes and laundry, and ordering pizza. They could always have learned some simple cooking, and Ill bet they did.

DH who really DID work on his family farm was driving the tractor at 5 years old, and he was small for his age.

Thanks for your support on this.. I guess I have cringe moments when I recall how a) I found a roach clip in the shag carpet cleaning up during that time and b) I recall how the two older brothers refer to that period of time as the "Notorious Fall of 1993" However, they are both lovely, well-adjusted, happy adults now, so I guess all's well that ends well, in spite of their parents.

ApatheticNoMore

4-28-16, 2:15pm

I am usually the first person to feel sorry for people when they get in binds. However, there is no way I feel sorry for this guy. His wife could get a job

actually the wife not being able to go back to her field is something I could feel sorry for. Because I think there are fields where stuff changes so fast (like technology) that if you have taken time off from the field good luck ever getting back into it, it's not so easy. But then I've always seen taking off time to raise kids as a very risky proposition for a woman financially. So I don't know. There is no great solution to that problem. Not much empathy for this guy in general, haha even that wasn't empathy for him, but more for his poor wife and her situation. She kind of bet on him being able to support her when she quit her job to raise kids and well .... bad bet.

Get a generic job? Honestly I don't think I'd ever give that advice as a career path to anyone except a teenager looking for work experience or spending money or someone who was say recovering from drug addiction or something (then they just need to start mending their life) because any generic job is competing in an INCREDIBLY tough labor market as UNSKILLED LABOR is a flooded labor market indeed. It's a path to nowhere if ever there was one.

iris lilies

4-28-16, 2:20pm

What was the upshot our last discussion about "teaching personal finance in school?." Apparently
Ive never convinced jp1 et al that they DO teach it in some form or another. I had household budgeting in Home Ec. We completed an income tax form in ?Econ? Class. etc.

But as with most things I learned in school it went in one ear and out the other. The reason Im good with money is because that was a family value. My dad and his side of the family were frugal, and proud of it. Saving money was reinforc d at family ngatherings, cousin partes, even c.

Ive learned over the years that liberals think so many societal issues can be solved by "education" and I used to think that too, back in the days when I was a liberal. Now, wiser, I see that that so many lifestyles choices are more about values than about ignorance. Like our Hamptons dwelling author,for instance-- he values appearing successful, receiving a "good" education, working in a glamour industry even if being a fusty academic on the fringes.

catherine mentions a society where we are expected to borrow money. I say no--those are East Coast values. Money is bigger on either coast, I think. Its a values thing.

oldhat

4-28-16, 2:44pm

LDAHL

4-28-16, 2:50pm

catherine

4-28-16, 2:51pm

I saw this article some weeks ago but didn't read it until now because I figured it would probably just irritate me. And it does, for all the obvious reasons. But one thing struck me: I think a big part of this guy's problem isn't just that he's impecunious. Instead, his basic view of what defines you as a human being is fundamentally flawed:

"I chose to become a writer, which is a financially perilous profession, rather than do something more lucrative. I chose to live in New York rather than in a place with a lower cost of living. I chose to have two children. I chose to write long books that required years of work, even though my advances would be stretched to the breaking point and, it turned out, beyond. We all make those sorts of choices, and they obviously affect, even determine, our bottom line. But, without getting too metaphysical about it, these are the choices that define who we are. We don’t make them with our financial well-being in mind, though maybe we should. We make them with our lives in mind. The alternative is to be another person."

I think that this view is more misguided than his belief, which he recognizes is the product of cultural brainwashing, that money and success define you. Or rather, it's the source of his problems. He wouldn't be "another person" if he were a plumber or an accountant instead of a writer. He would, I would hope, be the same husband, father, friend and neighbor.

This dovetails beautifully with ULAs Identity thread. Isn't it sad that many of us define ourselves by the financial terms we accept in our lives? We define ourselves by conspicuous consumption so that we can say we live in the Hamptons, until (OMG!) we are forced to drive a 20 year old car. Or we define ourselves by how LITTLE we have so we can say we're "living simply." Isn't it just two sides of the same coin? Let's take out all the of money that has flowed through our lives and then ask, "who are we"? To oldhat's point, maybe we are simply a good husband, wife, friend, and neighbor and we can leave it at that.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 2:57pm

Education can be an important tool, but tools require craftsmen to matter. You can teach somebody how to balance a checkbook and calculate interest, but getting them to internalize values like self-discipline, discriminating between needs and wants, or deferred gratification is a much different proposition. A culture that abandons those kind of (dare I say it) virtues won't be able to make up the difference with education, regulation or propaganda.

Self-discipline is a lost virtue, I think. I also think some are naturally endowed with more than others. I call it grit.

ApatheticNoMore

4-28-16, 3:00pm

Apparently Ive never convinced jp1 et al that they DO teach it in some form or another. I had household budgeting in Home Ec. We completed an income tax form in ?Econ? Class. etc.

I went to 12 years of public school. They never taught it. We never completed a tax form. There was no Home Ec. In fact if you are on a college track (and everyone is probably encouraged to be on one these days with good reason if that's what many of the jobs want except skilled trades) you won't have much time for any of this, you'll be busy taking a whole bunch of requirements to get into college like foreign languages and so on. I wonder if parents still have to advise you to make sure you take all the classes colleges want or if all schools now encourage that (frankly the latter is better, the former again relies on parents being informed. I didn't invent or even like a world where many employers seem to want college degrees, believe me I do not like the present economy, but it just is).

However I DO NOT THINK EDUCATION IS THE ANSWER. Because I think people are too finite and limited, most of us can't know it all, we can't keep knowing more and more and more to protect ourselves from an ever more "buyer beware" world. We won't all know the ins and outs of taxation and investment, finance majors might but nutrition majors maybe not so much so. However the finance major might not eat healthy and may trust the industrial food supply which is another really dumb choice for their long term well being. It's not realistic to expect everyone to know everything. It's not even realistic to expect parents who make good financial decisions to have any advice to pass on to their children!!!! How could they? Economic stuff changes too fast. How could the parent with a pension ever explain 401k investing to their kid? How could the parent who went to college with no or small manageable loans ever explain the kids of loans that some people are taking out for college these days (at least enough to warn them against them)? No parents may not understand this stuff because they are simply old (and this includes parents of any age - they are old *relative* to their kids). The world they grew up in economically is not applicable to the present.

This guy is incredibly stupid financially so his problem is not he invested his money wrongly thus he's in trouble. His problem is he makes obviously horrible decisions. Which seems to stem from excessive optimism on his part or something, I'm not sure. But I think strengthening the safety net is the answer rather than expecting everyone to know everything.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:03pm

Isn't it sad that many of us define ourselves by the financial terms we accept in our lives? We define ourselves by conspicuous consumption so that we can say we live in the Hamptons, until (OMG!) we are forced to drive a 20 year old car. Or we define ourselves by how LITTLE we have so we can say we're "living simply." Isn't it just two sides of the same coin? Let's take out all the of money that has flowed through our lives and then ask, "who are we"? To oldhat's point, maybe we are simply a good husband, wife, friend, and neighbor and we can leave it at that.

I think that defining oneself subtractively can be as important as defining oneself additionally. haha

Now I know that turn of phrase is as wonky at they get. But I hope you get my meaning.

I think that if one wants to say they live simply so they get rid of their shtuff then they are missing the point. And missing the point means no joy of living simply.

Living simply is not something you say so much as you do.

Let me channel Frank Zappa...

Talking about living simply is like dancing about architecture.

But I do agree that sometimes simple definitions of identity are the deepest and most meaningful such as "a good friend."

catherine

4-28-16, 3:05pm

I went to 12 years of public school. They never taught it.

Same with me. I had no mentors. Well, there was my mother, who got an inheritance and spent it on three luxury cars and 4 closets full of blazers.

Self-discipline is a lost virtue, I think.

It would seem so until I see the 20-somethings in my Central Jersey town who work from sun-up to sundown on the tedium and back-breaking labor of a farm. So some people get it.

Teacher Terry

4-28-16, 3:06pm

Apathetic no more : "actually the wife not being able to go back to her field is something I could feel sorry for. Because I think there are fields where stuff changes so fast (like technology) that if you have taken time off from the field good luck ever getting back into it, it's not so easy. But then I've always seen taking off time to raise kids as a very risky proposition for a woman financially. So I don't know. There is no great solution to that problem. Not much empathy for this guy in general, haha even that wasn't empathy for him, but more for his poor wife and her situation. She kind of bet on him being able to support her when she quit her job to raise kids and well .... bad bet.

Get a generic job? Honestly I don't think I'd ever give that advice as a career path to anyone except a teenager looking for work experience or spending money or someone who was say recovering from drug addiction or something (then they just need to start mending their life) because any generic job is competing in an INCREDIBLY tough labor market as UNSKILLED LABOR is a flooded labor market indeed. It's a path to nowhere if ever there was one. "

Sorry it is called a "survival job" and that is what you do when you need $. My ex had a master's degree and when he could not find a job he worked as a janitor to help support us. When I worked with clients out of work many only wanted a job in their field and sat by and lost their homes, etc because they were too proud to get a survival job. Both my ex and I were raised with the values that no work is beneath you. Also my ex was able to eventually transition to a job in his field but we never were in financial peril because he was willing to work any job. I really admire that about him. It is like being on a ship with a very small hole. If you plug it right away you will be fine but no the wife sits and watches the entire ship sink.

Teacher Terry

4-28-16, 3:08pm

I forgot to mention that I found out from another forum that indeed he did spend all his parents $ on his daughter's educations. Talk about lack of a moral compass.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:11pm

Sorry it is called a "survival job" and that is what you do when you need $. My ex had a master's degree and when he could not find a job he worked as a janitor to help support us. When I worked with clients out of work many only wanted a job in their field and sat by and lost their homes, etc because they were too proud to get a survival job. Both my ex and I were raised with the values that no work is beneath you. Also my ex was able to eventually transition to a job in his field but we never were in financial peril because he was willing to work any job. I really admire that about him. It is like being on a ship with a very small hole. If you plug it right away you will be fine but no the wife sits and watches the entire ship sink.

I agree about getting a survival job. It does not have to be forever, but when you need to pay bills you do whatever. I have shoveled horse manure over a foot deep with horses in it for money when I needed it. I washed trucks with a garden hose for money. If I was to get downsized at work tomorrow I'd bag groceries or some such until I could find something better.

When you need the bread you'll get out there and take most any job.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:12pm

I went to 12 years of public school. They never taught it. We never completed a tax form. There was no Home Ec. In fact if you are on a college track (and everyone is probably encouraged to be on one these days with good reason if that's what many of the jobs want except skilled trades) you won't have much time for any of this, you'll be busy taking a whole bunch of requirements to get into college like foreign languages and so on. I wonder if parents still have to advise you to make sure you take all the classes colleges want or if all schools now encourage that (frankly the latter is better, the former again relies on parents being informed. I didn't invent or even like a world where many employers seem to want college degrees, believe me I do not like the present economy, but it just is).

However I DO NOT THINK EDUCATION IS THE ANSWER. Because I think people are too finite and limited, most of us can't know it all, we can't keep knowing more and more and more to protect ourselves from an ever more "buyer beware" world. We won't all know the ins and outs of taxation and investment, finance majors might but nutrition majors maybe not so much so. However the finance major might not eat healthy and may trust the industrial food supply which is another really dumb choice for their long term well being. It's not realistic to expect everyone to know everything. It's not even realistic to expect parents who make good financial decisions to have any advice to pass on to their children!!!! How could they? Economic stuff changes too fast. How could the parent with a pension ever explain 401k investing to their kid? How could the parent who went to college with no or small manageable loans ever explain the kids of loans that some people are taking out for college these days (at least enough to warn them against them)? No parents may not understand this stuff because they are simply old (and this includes parents of any age - they are old *relative* to their kids). The world they grew up in economically is not applicable to the present.

This guy is incredibly stupid financially so his problem is not he invested his money wrongly thus he's in trouble. His problem is he makes obviously horrible decisions. Which seems to stem from excessive optimism on his part or something, I'm not sure. But I think strengthening the safety net is the answer rather than expecting everyone to know everything.

I think there is some real pearls of wisdom in much of what you said above.

ApatheticNoMore

4-28-16, 3:13pm

But, without getting too metaphysical about it, these are the choices that define who we are. We don’t make them with our financial well-being in mind, though maybe we should. We make them with our lives in mind. The alternative is to be another person.

I honestly think his problems are kind of bound up in his personality. He's an optimist. He is kind of a risk taker not necessarily even because he's daring, but because he believes things will end well, everything will work out somehow. Bad things happen to poor people and people who don't go to college and so on (it's true that elite education probably does help one in life), but not to "middle class" (I don't really think the lifestyle he aspires to is middle class like I said - but he thinks so) people like him.

He wouldn't be "another person" if he were a plumber or an accountant instead of a writer. He would, I would hope, be the same husband, father, friend and neighbor.

actually HE WOULD. If he was a plumber or accountant or something and hated it, he would be another person. It IS NOT that easy to compartmentalize work versus life. If he was a plumber and say hating plumbing (or accounting) or whatever and loathed every day he had to do it - he would be another person. Now if he was fairly content as a plumber maybe not, but if he was miserable on the job, he would be another person. He would try to tell himself "it's only work, it's not what matters" but I'm not sure it can be done. He would be the same father .... except his broken dreams would creep into his parenting and what advice would he give his kids on career choices? He would be the same friend .... except he'd feel envy for the friend who is making it as a writer even though he shouldn't envy a friend .... Now if he could make a living part time as a plumber and write the rest of the time he might find some kind of happy medium, it might be one of the fields in 1000 where such a thing might actually be possible really (accountant might also be - those fields are real exceptions).

Teacher Terry

4-28-16, 3:13pm

Glad to hear it UL. Great work ethic and you also have a master's degree. There is never any shame in doing any kind of honest work.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:15pm

It would seem so until I see the 20-somethings in my Central Jersey town who work from sun-up to sundown on the tedium and back-breaking labor of a farm. So some people get it.

Good point.

I noticed that there are some hard-working and well-educated folks at the Whole Foods near my job. They seem to work hard, diligently, and be very bright.

Teacher Terry

4-28-16, 3:16pm

Both my Dad and my FIL hated what they did for a living but were 2 of the happiest, fun people ever. I never knew either of them hated their work until I became an adult and someone else told me. Work did not define either of them. They volunteered for causes they believed in and were great dads. They both found their value in other things.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:17pm

Glad to hear it UL. Great work ethic and you also have a master's degree. There is never any shame in doing any kind of honest work.

I am routinely told at work that I meet all expectations. haha

At my last job, with the union, I was referred to as a "workhorse." But since it was a construction union that probably just means I did a reasonable amount of work in any other context. haha

LDAHL

4-28-16, 3:21pm

Self-discipline is a lost virtue, I think. I also think some are naturally endowed with more than others. I call it grit.

Who was it who said that control over others is mere power, while control over yourself is true strength?

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:23pm

Who was it who said that control over others is mere power, while control over yourself is true strength?

Probably some stoic. haha

ApatheticNoMore

4-28-16, 3:27pm

I agree about getting a survival job. It does not have to be forever

i think it's likely to become forever though, when walmart clerk tends not to lead anywhere afterall. Who could have known it was a dead end? I will work hard for charity and stuff, but I think getting a survival job and thinking that gets one anywhere at all in this economy is bad decision making. I don't consider whether it's good to work hard for something you believe in the same question of whether a survival job is a good career move. I think it's a very bad career move. And I think making stupid career moves is kind of stupid and will lead to long term suffering. But hey you matyred yourself to a glorious cause of having a work ethic even though your life is now @#$#. But who actually cares about worldly things, like your life, you are highly ethical afterall with your work ethic. Maybe St Peter will care (if he's a Calvinist) but don't expect this world to.

So what should she do? Man I don't know, she's in a tough situation, women risk a lot when they quit careers to have kids, what THEY should probably do is move, but what she herself should do. Well it's not easy to get a new career midlife but training for that seems a way better bet than obviously dead end job.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:35pm

If you gotta pay bills, then you gotta pay them. But when I get a survival job I am figuring out ways out of that job and into another too.

Like my job right now gets crappier every day. But my plan is to either find a new job or go back to school (tuition is paid for) and totally change careers. I think several moves ahead.

Now I agree that one can get sucked down into the ditches of working life and never get out. But I am the type who tries to conquer or evade or parry that fate away.

Teacher Terry

4-28-16, 3:47pm

Train for something new that won't take long or take any job. That is what a rational person does. Their job does not define them as a person.

ApatheticNoMore

4-28-16, 3:47pm

Now I agree that one can get sucked down into the ditches of working life and never get out. But I am the type who tries to conquer or evade or parry that fate away.

i try but then I find myself careening toward near total breakdown because I'm trying to do more than I can do (maybe just than *I* can do, maybe other people can do more, and good for them). I don't know.

Train for something new that won't take long or take any job. That is what a rational person does. Their job does not define them as a person.

doing a job that has no future is like I say a very SHORT TERM rationality indeed. Live (and work) for today and let tomorrow take care of itself, but if that's the level of decision making going on, tomorrow tends to be just like today.

LDAHL

4-28-16, 3:47pm

oldhat

4-28-16, 3:55pm

...If he was a plumber or accountant or something and hated it, he would be another person. It IS NOT that easy to compartmentalize work versus life. If he was a plumber and say hating plumbing (or accounting) or whatever and loathed every day he had to do it - he would be another person. Now if he was fairly content as a plumber maybe not, but if he was miserable on the job, he would be another person. He would try to tell himself "it's only work, it's not what matters" but I'm not sure it can be done. He would be the same father .... except his broken dreams would creep into his parenting and what advice would he give his kids on career choices? He would be the same friend .... except he'd feel envy for the friend who is making it as a writer even though he shouldn't envy a friend .... Now if he could make a living part time as a plumber and write the rest of the time he might find some kind of happy medium, it might be one of the fields in 1000 where such a thing might actually be possible really (accountant might also be - those fields are real exceptions).

I can't agree. I spent years in grad school training for a job I ended up not getting, and what I have ended up doing for the last 15 years certainly wasn't my dream. But in either case I don't see what I do for a living as defining me. I didn't get my dream job, but I'm still me, with all the same flaws and virtues.

I will admit that there were times when I felt jealous of friends who did find academic jobs or who were more successful in other ways. But I view coming to understand those feelings, and overcoming them, as growth, and with hindsight I see them as mostly pretty silly.

I think the kind of bitterness over broken dreams that you're describing is more a question of temperament than anything else. Most of the people I've known who were bitter (my mother comes to mind) didn't need a reason to be bitter. She was completely certain that her unhappiness stemmed solely from external circumstances (and she let everyone around her know it). This guy's belief that you're defined by what you do is the same kind of fallacious thinking. Does he think that his wife or children would love him less, or his friends and colleagues respect him less, if he hadn't published a bunch of books and articles? (If they in fact would, he's surrounded himself with the wrong people.)

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:55pm

I think sometimes people get hung up on the idea that there is some kind of central passion in their life that they must pursue as a career or be forever unhappy. How many young children dream of becoming a urologist or network administrator or HVAC technician?

Like almost every other aspect of life, work is just one element in a long list of trade-offs we need to make as we try to navigate in the general direction of fulfillment.

I think some folks really nail it. Like Bob Dylan or Neil DeGrasse Tyson or "Chet."

Chet is a bicycle mechanic at the bike shop near me. He has worked on my Diamondback Frankenstein a few times. He has always loved biking. He bikes to work and all over. He saves up and takes vacations out in AZ -- for what you ask? To go biking! haha

And what he does for work is bicycle mechanics. He seems to be really in his element.

Ultralight

4-28-16, 3:58pm

I can't agree. I spent years in grad school training for a job I ended up not getting, and what I have ended up doing for the last 15 years certainly wasn't my dream. But in either case I don't see what I do for a living as defining me. I didn't get my dream job, but I'm still me, with all the same flaws and virtues.

I will admit that there were times when I felt jealous of friends who did find academic jobs or who were more successful in other ways. But I view coming to understand those feelings, and overcoming them, as growth, and with hindsight I see them as mostly pretty silly.

I think the kind of bitterness over broken dreams that you're describing is more a question of temperament than anything else. Most of the people I've known who were bitter (my mother comes to mind) didn't need a reason to be bitter. She was completely certain that her unhappiness stemmed solely from external circumstances (and she let everyone around her know it). This guy's belief that you're defined by what you do is the same kind of fallacious thinking. Does he think that his wife or children would love him less, or his friends and colleagues respect him less, if he hadn't published a bunch of books and articles? (If they in fact would, he's surrounded himself with the wrong people.)

I think some of us are physical and/or mentally and/or intellectually and/or emotionally more resilient than others.

I am not especially resilient. But I muddle through.

Teacher Terry

4-28-16, 4:25pm

ANM: so you think there is more value in not working and watch the financial ship sink versus getting a job even though it is not in your field? When I was young and found myself a single mom with only a HS diploma and no skills I took a 3 month clerical program and then took the first job I could find. In those times you could get welfare and sit on your ass for years until your child went to school. I didn't even consider it for one moment. I took the hard road and worked and was worse off then if I had gone on welfare but I had pride. I had a duty to support myself and my child.

Williamsmith

4-28-16, 4:39pm

I didn't choose my profession but many in my profession grew up wanting to be in law enforcement. When I told them I had no particular interest in it but only did it to pay the bills and raise a family, I got a lot of sideways looks and generally screwed up faces.

I believe it made me better at it because I wasn't trying to play out any preconceived fantasy of being a super hero and taking down the bad guy which I saw often happen in the form of over zealous police work.

And now that I am retired and enjoy a rather uncommonly comfortable lifestyle some of the same people who said, "I wouldn't do your job for no amount of pay"; now say something like, "Aren't you lucky. It must be nice." To which I reply, "You could have taken the test and done the same thing I did, you just didn't have the balls."

Some people are lucky. I would have loved to fly airplanes, build guitars, or been a professional baseball player like a friend of mine was. He's got two World Series rings. But life is mostly not planning.....it is mostly reacting.

catherine

4-28-16, 4:45pm

.....it is mostly reacting.

I would say "responding".. not "reacting." "Reacting" is passive while "responding" is active.

I did the same. I had to get the family some health insurance, and a temp job wound up as a full-time job in word processing which wound up giving me opportunities in analysis which propelled me into a market research career. In each of those stages my motivation was simply to pay the bills. Who knew I would ever be a market researcher? As luck would have it, I was. Maybe not my design, but it has served my family well.

pinkytoe

4-28-16, 4:45pm

when walmart clerk tends not to lead anywhere afterall
I've always had a fantasy of going to work at Walmart and seeing how fast I could get into the management track.

oldhat

4-28-16, 4:49pm

How many young children dream of becoming a urologist or network administrator or HVAC technician?

I had a summer job in college driving a delivery van for a medical supplies company. The kid who broke me in, who was even younger than I was, was very excited because he was quitting to start training to be an HVAC technician. He really was enthusiastic. I remembering thinking, "This is a man who has found his niche in life."

Ultralight

4-28-16, 5:12pm

I had a summer job in college driving a delivery van for a medical supplies company. The kid who broke me in, who was even younger than I was, was very excited because he was quitting to start training to be an HVAC technician. He really was enthusiastic. I remembering thinking, "This is a man who has found his niche in life."

When I think of the handful of folks I know who found their niche I am just in awe. They have a whole different demeanor and way of being. It is hard to explain. They are just lighter in a way.

ApatheticNoMore

4-28-16, 5:18pm

You can say even a menial job might be socially useful. It might, but that's different between it getting you anywhere in this world (which was my point - what actually gets you somewhere even if never rich - and making decisions for that rather than otherwise - not the self sacrifice in the name of the work ethic or helping society angle, but what's really in one's self interest - and dead end job not so much so). And I think if one is stuck as a clerk at Walmart for years and years it's easy to become too demoralized to even try for anything else including the management track there.

But a janitor might be considered menial say but is socially useful. But also what about jobs that are not socially useful? I suppose store checkout might easily fall into this as they are now easily replaceable by machines so their work is kind of useless (however machine checkout is unlikely to be the experience a Whole Foods customer wants). But a lot of jobs are actually A LOT more useless than this, they consist of more or less digging a hole and filling it up again, because someone at some badly run company has decided that is a necessary role even though it doesn't do anything (unlike the janitor which actually accomplishes something). Regardless of whether it is getting one anywhere in the world, should one still take pride in a job that truly is useless? Ok the most extreme example is I worked at a company that basically didn't give us any work to do the entire 9 months I was there. It wasn't because we didn't' want work. We did. Should I have taken pride in going to work, collecting a paycheck, studying and trying to look busy. That's extreme. But there are lot of jobs with just useless busy work that really truly accomplishes nothing.

jp1

4-28-16, 6:05pm

I totally get the fear of the survival job becoming the forever job. Fourteen years ago I was an unemployed marketing manager in publishing. After 10 months of unemployement I took a survival job doing data input in the claims department of an insurance brokerage. It paid just enough to cover my bills, was mind numbingly boring, and depressing (the claims were all workers comp claims of people who had been in the world trade center on 9/11. Spending weeks putting claim closed, claimant deceased into a database is not an especially fun activity). For the better part of a year I kept doing administrative insurance work while trying to get another publishing job and pretty much dreaded getting out of bed every day. Eventually I gave up on my hope of getting back into publishing, took a 12 week, 3 evenings a week class to get my insurance broker's license and 14 years later I'm still an insurance guy. It wasn't what I especially wanted to do, but I made it work and eventually stumbled into an interesting aspect of insurance to work in, and have now been in insurance longer than I was publishing, and have achieved more success in this career than I ever did in publishing.

Teacher Terry

4-28-16, 7:58pm

It certainly is not ideal to have to take a lower job but is that worse then not working at all when you obviously need the $?

lhamo

4-28-16, 8:43pm

They are in this situation because they choose to be. One quick google search for "hamptons housekeeper jobs" led to a site that has listings like this:

"Housekeeper Sagaponack, N.Y. Full Time/Live Out

Private, year-round residence in The Hamptons is looking to add a Housekeeper to their team of staff. Ideal candidate lives locally and has a reliable form of transportation. Schedule is a 40 hour work-week. You must be able to work weekends, summer time especially. Candidate must have experience working in large Hamptons homes (10,000 sq. ft. +) and experience working in a team with other staff. Housekeeper is responsible for all aspect of cleaning and laundry, along with one other housekeeper. This position is immediate.Salary $30 per hour. Interested applicants should e-mail a resume to: vincent@hamptondomestics.com."

Now granted, maybe she doesn't have the requisite experience taking care of a 10k sq ft house to get selected for this one, but these jobs are out there, in their region. At $30/hour, 40 hours/week, that would be a $60k base salary. More than what I was considering for a professional position in Seattle recently. I would do it if I needed to. And I have a Ph.D. and over 15 years of non-profit management experience.

jp1

4-28-16, 8:48pm

It certainly is not ideal to have to take a lower job but is that worse then not working at all when you obviously need the $?

in my case it was a matter of not wanting to become homeless. Unemployment and my severance pay were both running out. A crappy temp job (that eventually became permanent) seemed like the best option. In hindsight it turned into a great opportunity because I saw that doing nine weeks of training (paid for by my employer) could launch what appeared to be, and ended up being, a steady new career. It was also during this time that I met SO, who was impressed that I was willing to do what I needed to do to get by and get ahead instead of grousing at what wasn't happening.

lhamo

4-28-16, 8:56pm

Or how about these:

"Quogue,N.Y. Housekeepr/Cook Full Time-Live In or Out

Live-in or Out/ Housekeeper Cook Laundress needed for a couple in Quogue. Job is live-in or Out for 5 days a week working on some weekends. Job includes Housekeeping, cooking and overseeing the house. Candidate must live in Hampton, must have knowledge of the Hamptons areas. Drive and do food shopping. Have excellent checkable reference. Legal to work in the U.S. Fluent in English. Have a clean driving background. Will provide private quarters with kitchen and bath. Salary: 65k + Medical. Interested applicants should e-mail a resume to: vincent@hamptondomestics.com.

Caretaker/Household Mgr. Watermill Year Round

Live-Out Property/Household Manager Watermill family that travels to The Hamptons often to enjoy their oceanfront Estate is looking to add to their team of staff. The family would like to hire a HOUSE/PROPERTY MANAGER, full-time who is able to work on the weekends when the family is in the Hamptons. You must have experience managing a high-tech, oceanfront estate. Most importantly, you must have excellent communication skills and be able to work with a team of staff to ensure all aspects of the home are properly maintained and in working order. You must have a reliable form of transportation to and from the property, along with a valid driver’s license.Salary $125k+Benefits Interested applicants should e-mail a resume to: vincent@hamptondomestics.com."

Man, if I wasn't committed to living in Seattle for family reasons, I might just be emailing vincent about a career change!

And if poor little poor boy has trouble stepping down the class ladder to work as domestic help, he could just tell himself he's doing research for his next book.

ApatheticNoMore

4-28-16, 9:41pm

Does sound like easy money. It has been suggested he could maybe rent out his house in the summer for income. Don't know. I mean of course that wouldn't work if he actually had a real job and needed to be local for it, but he doesn't as he's a writer. And of course it might be at best junky couch surfing offer if it wasn't somewhere so ritzy, but it is.

bae

4-28-16, 10:55pm

I know several estate managers where I live - it isn't "easy money", it's a complicated job requiring lots of skills and personal initiative, often for very demanding employers.

LDAHL

4-29-16, 12:38pm

I know several estate managers where I live - it isn't "easy money", it's a complicated job requiring lots of skills and personal initiative, often for very demanding employers.

My wife did that for awhile, and you are absolutely right. The money was good, but putting up with the client's whims was a monumental pain. And this was just for a suburban McMansion.

catherine

4-29-16, 12:39pm

My wife did that for awhile, and you are absolutely right. The money was good, but putting up with the client's whims was a monumental pain. And this was just for a suburban McMansion.

I could never, ever do it. I'd be fired within the week.

iris lilies

4-29-16, 1:34pm

I could never, ever do it. I'd be fired within the week.
I know! I wouldnt last as a housekeeper.

I have always had the fantasy of going to New Zealand during their summer to stay on someone's smallish estate and live for free in a simple cottage, all the while puttng in 2 -4 hours of garden maintenance per day between the two of us. We could weed, mulch, trim, plant whatever annuals they wanted planted. All we would ask for is free lodging with all utilities paid. We would keep the place looking nice, and if they had a decent store of tools, DH could fix things around the estate.

I am itch Ng to get my hands on kiwi iris 'n lilies.

bae

4-29-16, 2:00pm

More detailed info - one of my friends here is the estate manager for the "modest" home of a billionaire, who is in residence only 34 months of the year. He has to oversee the main house, which is huge. The entertaining house, which is large and consists of a large commercial kitchen and multiple dining/lounge/living-room spaces - so the owner doesn't have to entertain in his own personal house for the various charitable events they throw. Several guest cottages. A large dock. 4-5 boats and a b0athouse. Three airplanes. A hydropower plant and a solar power farm. A water system consisting of wells and a rain cachement system. The driveway/road network. 4-5 cars/trucks. Gardens, orchards, lawns. Barns. Etc etc.

All of this has to be kept well-maintained and in-service, ready for a visit by the owner on a moment's notice.

My friend has a commercial pilot's license, his Coast Guard Master's license, is an EMT, has a civil engineering degree, yada yada yada.

He pulls down well over $100k/year, but works his butt off doing it.

lhamo

4-29-16, 9:37pm

I didn't mean to imply it was easy money. But his wife was a high level executive at one point, and certainly has plenty of experience as "household manager" of their own family. If they really want to get themselves on better footing financially, there are ways to do it while still remaining in their current community. But it would involve a major change of attitude/perspective.

Who knows, maybe the exposure he gets from the Atlantic article will help them turn things around. I was just catching up on Dave Ramsey podcasts from last week and he was praising the guy for his honesty and lack of blaming the system for his own choices.

Dhiana

4-30-16, 2:48am

I see how easy it can be fall into all of these traps he has.

Soon after we were married, ~14 years ago, we were at a company BBQ and everyone was talking about the hot housing market and now is the time to buy. Everyone there had recently purchased, was in the process of purchasing, or searching for one to buy. These were all service members who were all temporarily in the area and would be leaving for parts unknown. They all thought we were crazy for NOT buying.
It had my husband second guessing his decision not to buy and myself a bit, too. But I double checked my reasons for not buying and I don't regret that decision.

We were also teased incessantly for not having SUVs.

It's not even a matter of keeping up with the Jones' it's the thought that one is making a poor money decision by doing or not doing as "everyone" else. Such as throwing away money on rent!

We still endure the teasing about our money choices such as going car-free, downsizing, etc but are happy with these decisions. It's not so easy for some to see the fine print/true cost beyond the peer pressure.

Finances have become rediculously complicated designed to scrape the most out of everyone. I find it sad how they take advantage of those who don't understand. This guy should have, I agree.

We are now judged on our debts, not our assets. Credit reports recommending one gets a mortgage and a car loan to improve ones score? This does not help guide people towards good financial stability, just one more reason we were told we should buy a house.

catherine

4-30-16, 6:18am

We were also teased incessantly for not having SUVs.

It's not even a matter of keeping up with the Jones' it's the thought that one is making a poor money decision by doing or not doing as "everyone" else. Such as throwing away money on rent!

We still endure the teasing about our money choices such as going car-free, downsizing, etc but are happy with these decisions. It's not so easy for some to see the fine print/true cost beyond the peer pressure.

Boy, it's hard to have to put up with that kind of pressure. I remember two bosses I had--we all worked together. The boss who I reported to was very frugal and had a 10 year old car. The boss he reported to leased a new Lexus every 3 years and she used to make fun of him for his car (not in a mean way, she is actually one of my favorite people, but she lived in an area where everyone lived high.)

He finally got a brand new car--a Lexus. I always felt a little like he sold out. At work, if you're in a management position, or in fields such as real estate where you sometimes drive your clients to places, I think there's extra pressure to 'dress the part.' One of my hires, a project manager, made a comment about my Volkswagen Beetle. Then he pointed out his Lexus SUV--almost as if to say, "Gee, I'm a lowly project manager, YOU'RE my boss, and I'M the one with the fancy car!" almost as if it defied nature.

I remember the comments that one of the executive producers got from the junior staff at NBC when I worked there because he brought his lunch in every day. Boy, you'd think he came to work in a clown suit, people deemed him so unusual for not going out to the Palm for lunch like his peers did. They "forgave" him because he had a really large young family he was raising, but they still thought it strange for a "big guy" to bring his lunch to work.

Williamsmith

4-30-16, 7:53am

It was hard to read that article knowing that it was not just about one person's poor choices but an entire nation's future. I tried to teach my kids financial survival skills in the face of much stupidity being modeled. We will see where we go from here.

SteveinMN

4-30-16, 1:34pm

Sure, we can say "they signed the paperwork, they're responsible." But that doesn't strike me as something a moral society would do given the extreme lack of knowledge on this topic.
I'm not defending this guy; his priorities were misplaced, at best, and, for whatever reason, he didn't have the financial literacy to see his way out of his situation. But, as a society, we don't seem to be terribly interested in lifting others up.
Like I wrote, I'm not defending this guy. I was responding solely to jp1's comment, which I quoted.

Quite obviously, few people have enough financial literacy themselves to be able to teach their kids how to be financially literate, and our schools are not teaching it either (or many other fairly basic life skills that children don't seem to learn at home).

So we let people sink or figure out how to swim on their own. Does it serve us to just let people land in the water without any swimming lessons? Granted, that seems to make a few people inordinately proud that they figured out how to paddle out of danger before they drowned. But I'm not sure what that really proves about them.

I stand by my point that too many human situations in 2016's America are brushed off with a disdainful "well, what can you expect?" when a moral society would at least provide the basic tools of knowledge and critical thinking. But, hell, I'm an outlier. Most folks seem to be very happy letting dogs eat dogs.

ToomuchStuff

4-30-16, 10:49pm

who is in residence only 34 months of the year.

Must be an astronaut who works on a Plutotoid?

bae

5-1-16, 12:24am

Must be an astronaut who works on a Plutotoid?

Well, that was supposed to say 3-4 months, but heck :-O

However, the estate *does* belong to an astronaut. He took this rather famous photo:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg/1280px-NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg

Williamsmith

5-1-16, 10:31am

Well, that was supposed to say 3-4 months, but heck :-O

However, the estate *does* belong to an astronaut. He took this rather famous photo:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg/1280px-NASA-Apollo8-Dec24-Earthrise.jpg

100K a year from a billionaire to take care of a spread like that is peanuts. Especially someone who once was a resident of a tin can in space. Tell him to ask for a raise. A big one.

ToomuchStuff

5-1-16, 10:53am

Williamsmith....

He would probably just reply with this picture, and ask "show me the difference you make here, in the face of things, speck".:laff:

LDAHL

5-1-16, 10:54am

We were also teased incessantly for not having SUVs.

The totemic power of the SUV over the years is an interesting phenomenon. I remember years ago hearing from an acquaintance in Boulder, CO that there was a sort of vigilante movement that keyed or otherwise defaced SUVs for the environmental/cultural sins they represented. Later, and perhaps in other places they became more acceptable, first as an alternative to the despised minivan, and then later in their own right.

Lainey

5-1-16, 11:55am

[QUOTE=ApatheticNoMore;239225]... he believes things will end well, everything will work out somehow. Bad things happen to poor people and people who don't go to college and so on (it's true that elite education probably does help one in life), but not to "middle class" ...people like him.

Excellent point, and I think this is close to the heart of the article. I grew up working class, and as Rick Bragg says, working class people know that "things can turn to shit in a second." That's why, when Bragg started making money as a journalist, he bought his mother a modest house and paid for it in cash.

We've all watched the Rust Belt cities suffer when manufacturing was sent off-shore, when jobs were replaced by robotics, and when technology lessened the need for typists, secretaries, and other pink-collar jobs. Middle-class people were unconcerned and relatively unaffected.
But then, to paraphrase a great theologian, "they came for me." Now upper middle class professions like radiologists are watching their work being done by cheaper doctors who live thousands of miles away, and attorneys are watching their guild being destroyed by documents software which can determine key witnesses and a timeline before they can even sit down and unpack their briefcase. Doctors in practices are told by insurers to keep their patient visits to 15 minutes. Etc. Etc. Life is getting worse for them, not better, and they haven't grasped that yet.

The author of "Listen, Liberal" is also impatient with this continued exhortation to just send everyone to college. If that magically happened, where are the jobs?

iris lilies

5-1-16, 12:04pm

[QUOTE=ApatheticNoMore;239225]...

The author of "Listen, Liberal" is also impatient with this continued exhortation to just send everyone to college. If that magically happened, where are the jobs?

We see this play out in poor African countries and other third world countries. Many college educated cannot get jobs in their own country because there arent any.

bae

5-1-16, 12:07pm

[QUOTE=Lainey;239537]

We see this play out in poor African countries and other third world countries. Many college educated cannot get jobs in their own country because there arent any.

Where do "jobs" come from?

Lainey

5-1-16, 12:12pm

[QUOTE=iris lilies;239539]

Where do "jobs" come from?

According to our Republican legislature, they are magically created when we give business owners all kinds of tax breaks, while keeping funding for our schools at 49th in the nation. Despite the fact that this has been demonstrated to be false, year after year they insist this is the only way to job paradise.

early morning

5-1-16, 4:51pm

It seems to me that the true employment rate is a much better measure of a county's financial health than GDP. And if companies are given tax breaks for creating jobs, why not a tax penalty for losing jobs that are solely aimed at increasing the stock price/dividend income? Not for layoffs for lack of work or to truly stave off bankruptcy, but for investing heavily in people-reducing equipment, mergers to hack off only small pieces that can be quickly sold, etc.

Lainey

5-1-16, 10:43pm

Yep, I can agree with a tax penalty for deliberately sending jobs out of the country e.g. companies like Oreo. Oreo was and is a profitable company, but not profitable enough apparently for Wall Street.

The MegaCorp. I work for hasn't created any net new jobs inside the U.S. for 2 decades, yet state governments are still giving them buckets of money to bribe them to keep the remaining jobs here. Even as U.S. personnel headcount decreases, no one is calling them on it and demanding they return their tax breaks.

How did we end up in this situation where several thousand financial profiteers working on Wall Street can manipulate and tear down company after company?

sweetana3

5-2-16, 5:40am

Indianapolis just lost 2,100 jobs to Mexico. Carrier Co. (heating and AC company) just said take $6 per hour wages or we are moving.

Williamsmith

5-2-16, 8:48am

Indianapolis just lost 2,100 jobs to Mexico. Carrier Co. (heating and AC company) just said take $6 per hour wages or we are moving.

Well, the people of Indianapolis and the State of Indiana will speak soon. And it will be loud and clear. The jobs crisis in this country has been glossed over, padded and plain lied about by both Dems and Republicans for over thirty years. Those who don't measure their assets and net worth by figuring in their Wall Street investments , and there are plenty, will choose a man who promises to change it. The working class is looking for a hired gun and they have found it in Trump. Kermit THE Frog.

Their criteria......Wages, Healthcare, Job Security. Mexicans go home. Factories stay here.

Cruz can pack his conservative suitcase and go back to Texas where he can go down to Home Depot and find an immigrant to landscape his yard and be a nanny for his two girls. Milton Friedman is dead. The rust belt will hand Trump a victory if for no other reason than to give the party the one finger salute.

On to California where the people invented the concept of looting and rioting in the name of protest.

The Cleveland Police Department is recruiting.

LDAHL

5-2-16, 12:56pm

On to California where the people invented the concept of looting and rioting in the name of protest.

I thought it odd that the best way they could think of to oppose Mr. Trump in Costa Mesa was to trash some police cars and wave Mexican flags. It was almost like they were trying to vindicate some of his more odious statements.

bae

5-2-16, 1:25pm

Related:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprino/2016/05/02/the-dirtiest-man-on-tv-dispels-5-damaging-myths-about-blue-collar-labor/#4e0a4dcc7db6

ApatheticNoMore

5-2-16, 2:07pm

I thought it odd that the best way they could think of to oppose Mr. Trump in Costa Mesa was to trash some police cars and wave Mexican flags. It was almost like they were trying to vindicate some of his more odious statements.

thinking the behavior or some people validates statements about a group is racist period. So no, it only validates it in the minds of racists, and I'm not sure their minds could be changed anyway (or else their interaction with tons of responsible Mexicans would have changed them already. Oh they have selective minds where riots get in but everyday interactions day after day don't - ha yea no kidding).

Meanwhile inside the Trump rally in Costa Mesa Trump was again going on about killing Muslim (terrorists) with bullets drenched in pigs blood. Now nobody has all that much sympathy with terrorists, but it's not enough just to say "we are at war with ISIS" or even "we are going to kill terrorists" or something. No their very religious beliefs (and thus the religious beliefs of a whole faith) have to be degraded in the process. Sick stuff going on at those Trump rallies. It makes me want to protest.

TVRodriguez

5-2-16, 3:37pm

I see how easy it can be fall into all of these traps he has.
. . . .
We were also teased incessantly for not having SUVs.

It's not even a matter of keeping up with the Jones' it's the thought that one is making a poor money decision by doing or not doing as "everyone" else.

. . . .

In December 2005, six months after buying a house that cost about 25% of the cost of my colleagues' homes, my car was totaled in an accident and I had to buy a new car. My colleagues (lawyers) told me I "needed" to "at least" get a Lexus. One recommended a Porsche SUV. They were all somewhat disappointed in me when I showed up with a new-to-me 2 year old Camry bought for cash at auction. But 11 years later, I still have that (still paid-for) Camry and DH & I have paid off the mortgage. One of those colleagues (who also bought a house in 2005) lost her house to foreclosure a few years ago. We're still friends. She doesn't make fun of my financial decisions anymore.

And on another note, I'm a card-carrying liberal Democrat, and I strongly believe that financial education, along with other aspects of personal responsibility, including sexual health education and contraception, should be taught in public schools.

TVRodriguez

5-2-16, 3:39pm

Related:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kathycaprino/2016/05/02/the-dirtiest-man-on-tv-dispels-5-damaging-myths-about-blue-collar-labor/#4e0a4dcc7db6

Synopsis? Forbes blocks me b/c I use an ad blocker.

jp1

5-2-16, 4:40pm

Synopsis? Forbes blocks me b/c I use an ad blocker.

People shouldn't be so quick to poo poo the skilled trades.

Teacher Terry

5-2-16, 5:11pm

People in the skilled trades can make more $ then those with degrees. My ex had a master's degree yet he trained to be a tool and dye maker and made tons of $ especially with overtime. It enabled us to support a family of 5 on one income and also paid cash for all 4 of my of my college degrees. It took him 4 years before he was a journeyman.

Ultralight

5-2-16, 6:21pm

I'd do manual labor in a skilled trade. It would probably take me 8 years to do a 4 year apprenticeship though, as I am not mechanical. But I'd do it. No shame in honest work or working with your hands. The bike mechanics I know are some happy, in-shape dudes!

Williamsmith

5-2-16, 7:22pm

Teacher Terry

5-2-16, 7:45pm

Sometimes he was and some places didn't have unions. He made the best $ at union places. He would get laid-off from the big union places and then goto work somewhere smaller for less until he got called back again. . He went to college because his mom was dying and wanted him to. He really wanted to work in a factory and fix things because he had natural ability and liked factory work. He could fix anything even if he knew nothing about it. He once fixed our 2 cars that had computers when 3 shops could not figure it out. He then took off all the unnecessary parts they had sold us, put the old ones back on and returned and got our $ back. He also fixed stoves and wash machines. He was a electrician and aircraft repairer in the service so could do that too as well as HVAC.

Williamsmith

5-2-16, 8:39pm

My son is a tool and die maker but while we live in the heartland for tool and die, most are relatively small businesses without union representation. The wealthiest people in the community own the tool and die shops, and many fail to reinvest in their own business. The shops that remain diverse usually have plenty of work. My son works six days a week and has a second part time job and he drives a cheap Ford Fiesta, lives in a one bedroom apartment, does not have cable or internet service, does not eat out, does his laundry at my house and does not have any retirement contribution program. He won't go to a doctor because he can't afford the deductible and copays. He basically lives month to month and has no expectation of ever retiring.

THirty to forty years ago he could have easily gotten a job in a factory with union representation and would have been on a path for retirement, could have raised a family and taken a vacation once a year.

Now, the only vacation he gets is if Inpay for him to tag along.

His brother and sister have a sports management degree and an accounting degree respectively. Both make almost twice what he does. One manages the food service warehouse for the Houston Astros baseball park and the other works for the State as a bank auditor. Both paid for half their education. Both have very good benefits and can expect a retirement someday.

So at least in my small test group.....the college degree made a huge difference.

Lainey

5-2-16, 10:30pm

Williamsmith

5-2-16, 11:58pm

Seeing this here in AZ, Williamsmith. A co-workers son is making $11/hour doing a similar job, and hasn't had a raise in 3 years. Very little benefits but fortunately he's under age 26 so he's still on his Dad's health insurance.
Being in the trades is great, but it's not necessarily the way to a secure middle class existence that it used to be. Welcome to the Right to Work life.

My conservative buddies will bad mouth the ObamaCare or as we say, the Unaffordable HealthCare Act and to be sure it is an abomination to its intentions but it saved my family countless thousands of dollars because all three of my children stayed on my healthcare insurance until age 26.

So when Lying Ted and the Right To Work for crappy pay politicians also chime in on repealing ObamaCare, I think how removed they must be from the everyday struggles of the average struggling middleclass or poor of the country. Fight any little minimum wage increases because it will result in loss of jobs. Well if they are so assured of the rightness of that theory then why aren't they asking for a $5 minimum wage? Imagine how many jobs that would create? And so that's how a guy like Trump can be poised to humiliate a Texan tomorrow. Nobody in conservative politics gives a shit about the working class.

LDAHL

5-3-16, 8:53am

thinking the behavior or some people validates statements about a group is racist period. So no, it only validates it in the minds of racists, and I'm not sure their minds could be changed anyway (or else their interaction with tons of responsible Mexicans would have changed them already. Oh they have selective minds where riots get in but everyday interactions day after day don't - ha yea no kidding).

Meanwhile inside the Trump rally in Costa Mesa Trump was again going on about killing Muslim (terrorists) with bullets drenched in pigs blood. Now nobody has all that much sympathy with terrorists, but it's not enough just to say "we are at war with ISIS" or even "we are going to kill terrorists" or something. No their very religious beliefs (and thus the religious beliefs of a whole faith) have to be degraded in the process. Sick stuff going on at those Trump rallies. It makes me want to protest.

Certainly. But none of that detracts from the argument that Trump's more fervent enemies are of greater value to his cause than his friends seem to be.

Teacher Terry

5-3-16, 1:10pm

Lainey

5-3-16, 10:21pm

WS: the key to making really good $ is to work for a big company. My hubby drove an hour each way to Milwaukee every day to work. He also was able to work on weekends. He would read a book and wait for the line to go down and then fix it. M-F he worked all day but weekends they just needed someone there in case the line went down. all the employers in our town were too small and didn't pay well.

Right up until they ship the plant and the jobs to Mexico. Not trying to be contrary, but it's a fact and I've lived through it with the MegaCorp. I work for. I've also seen what it does to the families.

Williamsmith

5-3-16, 11:44pm

Right up until they ship the plant and the jobs to Mexico. Not trying to be contrary, but it's a fact and I've lived through it with the MegaCorp. I work for. I've also seen what it does to the families.

This. Exactly one of the reasons Trump is where he is. All these jobs lost and all the losers got were promises for more good paying jobs to replace them, retraining, retooling, and what we got.........forgotten. Well, they aren't forgetting anymore are they? Like the miners in PA and West Virginia......they are looking at what Hildabeast is saying about euthanizing the coal industry. She didn't have an answer, just I'm sorry for that.

Guess how all those electric cars run. You plug into an electric grid fed by fossil fuels dug out of the ground by generations of coal miners who gave their lungs, and their lives all the while the companies screwed them as much as possible.

Labor will have a say in this election. They aren't busy these days working. Plenty of time to devote to complaining and voting.

LDAHL

5-4-16, 8:38am

Coal's been declining for about a decade, and is down to about 40% of the total. It's hard to see how protectionist policies of either the Trump or Sanders variety can save that industry.

Williamsmith

5-4-16, 9:07am

Coal's been declining for about a decade, and is down to about 40% of the total. It's hard to see how protectionist policies of either the Trump or Sanders variety can save that industry.

All labor realizes there is ebb and flow in any industry. But when government chooses to prop up certain industry over the corpses of other industries........crap will hit the fan.

Teacher Terry

5-4-16, 4:24pm

another industry that needs tool and dye makers are computer companies. My ex worked for one about an hour from the twin cities. The dyes he worked on were so small that he had to look under a microscope to work on it. Car and airplane manufacturers, swimming pool or camping supply manufacturers, etc all need them. Your son should start researching companies that need him and apply.

Williamsmith

5-4-16, 6:23pm

His current employer services aerospace, automotive, medical and conductor industries. He is divorced and his ex has primary custody of his five year old daughter. He is not moving anywhere and lose the precious little time he gets with her as it is.

catherine

5-4-16, 7:00pm

Coal's been declining for about a decade, and is down to about 40% of the total. It's hard to see how protectionist policies of either the Trump or Sanders variety can save that industry.

Nor should they. Never mind the fact that it's an outmoded fossil fuel. Coal miners have a very difficult and dangerous job. My father-in-law was one in Scotland which played a big part in his emigrating to America.

creaker

5-5-16, 5:01pm

Nor should they. Never mind the fact that it's an outmoded fossil fuel. Coal miners have a very difficult and dangerous job. My father-in-law was one in Scotland which played a big part in his emigrating to America.

It will still be there if we ever need it - it's not like it is going to disappear if we don't use it. Coal is currently outmoded - justifying it would be like saying we never should have started using electric lights because it would ruin the whaling industry.

jp1

5-5-16, 9:02pm

He is divorced and his ex has primary custody of his five year old daughter. He is not moving anywhere and lose the precious little time he gets with her as it is.

And that in a nutshell is a great example of reality intruding in the idea that everyone should be wiling to move to wherever the good paying jobs are. It's all well and good for people to say 'these people should do this or that,' but despite the best attempts to ignore it, the fact is that people are still individuals with different needs, wants, desires, motivations.

Tenngal

5-6-16, 9:14am

Ultralight

5-6-16, 9:22am

And that in a nutshell is a great example of reality intruding in the idea that everyone should be wiling to move to wherever the good paying jobs are. It's all well and good for people to say 'these people should do this or that,' but despite the best attempts to ignore it, the fact is that people are still individuals with different needs, wants, desires, motivations.

I cannot blame anyone for wanting to stay with their family. But if your choice is between feeding your family and being far away vs. starving right alongside your family then what does one do?

I used to work for a construction workers' union. The guys had to "boom out." If there was no work at home (often the case) they'd go to where construction was booming and get work. So they would go months and months sometimes barely seeing their family. Sure, their wives cheated on them and they cheated on their wives. And yeah, their kids were like strangers to them. But the guys were able to pay their child support bills and keep a roof over their kids' heads and maybe afford to send their kids to college. This is all that is left of the American Dream -- pay your child support, pay your bills, maybe your kid lives a better life than you -- and this last part is a real gamble.

I ain't saying this is good or fair. But life is not always good and it is almost never fair.

Ultralight

5-6-16, 9:23am

this is exactly right. Trump appeals to all of those who had better jobs years ago. I worked for the coal industry for 20 years. Good pay, great benefits.
I will never do that well again and it is hard to come to terms with.

Younger folks look at you and say: "Well, at least you had a good run of it for a little while. We don't even get that."

jp1

5-6-16, 10:58am

I cannot blame anyone for wanting to stay with their family. But if your choice is between feeding your family and being far away vs. starving right alongside your family then what does one do?

Let me present an example. It's from the distant past, but it agrees with you, but also has its own heartbreaking decision. Back during the depression my grandmother had tuberculosis. At the time there was no cure, but it was known that living in a dry climate would extend one's life significantly. Unfortunately for my grandmother she had lived her entire life in southern Missouri. Not a dry climate. My father was the youngest of three children and most of his memories of his mother are of her living in the state hospital for consumptives. Although my grandfather was aware that his wife would do much better if they moved out west to a dry climate the reality was that he had a good job working in a foundary and was able to support himself, 3 children, his wife in the hospital, and his wife's parents (one of whom was paralyzed due to polio) who lived with him and his children. Quiting that job to take a chance to move west in the hope of saving his wife's life at the risk of his whole family starving didn't seem like a good idea. Not to mention that he'd never left the state of Missouri in his life. My grandmother died 11 months before antibiotics became publicly available and tuberculosis became just a memory for everyone that had been sick. Who knows whether my grandfather made the right decision or not.

Tenngal

5-6-16, 11:20am

Younger folks look at you and say: "Well, at least you had a good run of it for a little while. We don't even get that."

Agreed! I have a 29 yr old with a 2 yr degree who works at Cracker Barrel. Part time, fights for hours, works a crazy schedule. This is the life of many in their 20s.

Ultralight

5-6-16, 11:28am

Agreed! I have a 29 yr old with a 2 yr degree who works at Cracker Barrel. Part time, fights for hours, works a crazy schedule. This is the life of many in their 20s.

I think there is a way out of the rut she is in. But I don't think that she, or others like her (myself included), will reach the previous greatness of generations that came before.

My career and income trajectory is downward, which is the norm nowadays. I accept this as I am nothing special -- not a math whiz or a scientist -- just a workin' schlub punching the clock for the gubmint.

ApatheticNoMore

5-6-16, 11:52am

Parts of my family moved out west to California (from New York) way back when for the weather for health reasons (as it's a warm dry climate), though it's far from the easiest place for me to make a living. But they did move for health.

I cannot blame anyone for wanting to stay with their family. But if your choice is between feeding your family and being far away vs. starving right alongside your family then what does one do?

I think one chooses to stay sometimes if the choices aren't as stark. Better economic opportunities elsewhere versus getting by where you are, well if one can get by .....

I used to work for a construction workers' union. The guys had to "boom out." If there was no work at home (often the case) they'd go to where construction was booming and get work. So they would go months and months sometimes barely seeing their family. Sure, their wives cheated on them and they cheated on their wives. And yeah, their kids were like strangers to them. But the guys were able to pay their child support bills and keep a roof over their kids' heads and maybe afford to send their kids to college. This is all that is left of the American Dream -- pay your child support, pay your bills, maybe your kid lives a better life than you -- and this last part is a real gamble.

their kids have almost ZERO chance of having a better life than them and not just because of "the economy" (although it certainly doesn't help), years of absentee fathers and it will take a psychological toll even though their mother is the primary caretaker. Since they have no role models they probably won't be able to form decent relationships themselves (which they might be able to pull off and do plausibly financially *IF* they don't have kids, but when they are raising kids as single parents - they have their financial struggles cut out for them). No those kids never had much of a chance, regardless of what their deluded fathers like to think (should have just used birth control - I mean divorce and stuff happens but if you know ahead of time you can't be there for your kids, probably not a good idea to have kids) though a few people will overcome all odds.

Ultralight

5-6-16, 11:55am

Parts of my family moved out west to California (from New York) way back when for the weather for health reasons (as it's a warm dry climate), though it's far from the easiest place for me to make a living. But they did move for health.

I think one chooses to stay sometimes if the choices aren't as stark. Better economic opportunities elsewhere versus getting by where you are, well if one can get by .....

their kids have almost ZERO chance of having a better life than them and not just because of "the economy" (although it doesn't help), years of absentee fathers and it will take a psychological toll even though their mother is the primary caretaker, since they have no role models they probably won't be able to form decent relationships themselves (which they might be able to pull off and do plausibly financially *IF* they don't have kids, but when they are raising kids as single parents - they have their financial struggles cut out for them). No those kids never had much of a chance, regardless of what their deluded fathers like to think (should have just used birth control) though a few people will overcome all odds.

Awful bleak.