View Full Version : tomorrow is D day for my mom's hoarding and I am ambivalent
I have very mixed feelings about what is going to happen tomorrow. My aunt and my cousin's GF (whom we met once for 20 mins) are coming up tomorrow to "de-hoard mom's room once and for all, so she can die in peace in there". My aunt has been coming up frequently and helping on a small basis with my mom's room. She gets very frustrated that systems she puts in place and things she organizes are a mess again when she comes back to visit. So she foisted this plan on my mother and my mom shockingly said, "ok". I truly don't think despite many conversations that my aunt gets the nature of hoarding. She honestly thinks we will whip through there tomorrow and everything will be fine. But my mom said yes so who am I to challenge this plan? I think having a stranger there borders on the cruel, frankly as my mom is very embarrassed by her hoarding. My aunt knows this but made my cousin's GF part of this plan anyway. But again, my mom said yes so who am I to question?
I've posted before my mom and I do not work well together on her hoard. Her paper problem makes me particularly crazy. So I have assigned myself the closet. She has been retaining a ton of fluid (she is going on dialysis) for many, many months so none of her older clothes or shoes do not fit and are unlikely to fit again. These clothes are old enough that if dialysis is a success, she deserves some new stuff. So the closet should be pretty cut and dry and she is involved in an organization that collects things for a town near here that was decimated by a hurricane, she will feel good knowing her things will go there. I think I've picked the "safest", least crazy-making chore.
On the surface, her room doesn't look too hoarded, there is clutter everywhere, piles of paper but it's nothing like Hoarders. open a drawer and that's another story. Her real hoard is the massive mess in the basement. My aunt's niece and her roommate need a place to stay for 2 weeks and are offering to de-hoard and organize the entire basement as payment. My mother has also agreed to this. At the very least, if she won't get rid of one thing, it will all be organized like with like and the niece offered to make a chart of where everything is. I am very nervous about this process because they also have a motive of wanting things for their apt so I have to be involved so the things I packed up when I moved here (like very nice cookware) does not get taken for their apt. Plus, my own children are college bound so I will be saving stuff for their future apts. But I am not physically up to doing anywhere near what they are planning to do. I think I will make a policy that I vet anything leaving the house.
I cannot believe my mom has agreed to any of this and I cannot decide if it's good or bad. She will act fine during tomorrow's de-hoarding, it's her behavior after they leave that I dread. And I really dread the basement. It is so bad, I have no idea where to even start and it will be hard for me to say "no" when they want to take things that my own kids could use in the next few years.
Please please please don't worry about saving things for the kids. Every single one of my and my husband's friends did this and no child wanted anything. The kids wanted their "own" stuff and nothing of their parents. Even if you are on good terms and keep telling them "look at the stuff I am saving for you", I can pretty much guarantee they will WANT none of it. They can even collect what they need for pennies on the dollar at garage sales and such and have the fun of searching it out.
If it is good stuff, sell it and give them the money at the appropriate time to help establish a life and let them choose what they want. But I don't think there is sterling, fine china and high end antiques in a basement hoard.
But I agree that the ground rules should be established ahead of time and if you want to check what is going out and where, that is not unreasonable.
you're right, but it will be hard to let them take a perfectly good dresser that my kids might want for their apts. I have to keep my eye on the prize: a clean, organized basement.
I do want to keep the good stuff from my household because when my mom passes, I plan to use my stuff. She was insistent that the kitchen be all her stuff and I let it go even though much of what I have is nicer. The good china of my mom's is packed away and should be sold or donated, she doesn't care about it. I have my not-exactly-china china in the china cupboard with my Nana's set and I use each regularly because I don't believe in not using things you love just because they are for "good". I sold lots of not very old furniture from my old house when we moved here so I know I am good at getting rid of stuff. I just got caught up with thinking about the kids in college.
Chicken lady
5-2-16, 7:58pm
You could offer to let your kids come help and set aside whatever they want. How long until they would need this stuff?
the youngest dd has been a little annoyed at us because we keep giving everything away to the older two. We told her that by the time she needs it, they will have better stuff and want to give it to her, or we will buy her some stuff that she likes (meanwhile the oldest is annoyed that we gave her the crappy futon and bought her brother an ikea bed - not really annoyed, she appreciated the crappy futon, just mock annoyed.)
good luck!
my son leaves for school in Phoenix in August, he's driving out and I think getting a u-haul so he would need stuff soon. DD is going to be a senior next year so she has more time. That's a good idea to ask them what they want now and then I can set it aside for them and if not, out the door to whomever wants it.
my mom is not in a good head space for tomorrow and I can already tell I am going to be the scapegoat she yells at for everything. I invented an important errand and that I need to get blood drawn so I can get outta there if I need a break.
she's on me about organizing her closet, she wants to focus on papers which is all good and fine but 4 people cannot work on papers. The closet is the easiest place to de-hoard and will give her storage for crap that should be behind closed doors. I've already been fired 3 times, lol. Pray for us!
freshstart, it sounds like you are as well prepared as you can be with a plan for getting out a bit, and a focus for your own day. I hope it goes well!
Williamsmith
5-2-16, 11:46pm
my son leaves for school in Phoenix in August, he's driving out and I think getting a u-haul so he would need stuff soon. DD is going to be a senior next year so she has more time. That's a good idea to ask them what they want now and then I can set it aside for them and if not, out the door to whomever wants it.
my mom is not in a good head space for tomorrow and I can already tell I am going to be the scapegoat she yells at for everything. I invented an important errand and that I need to get blood drawn so I can get outta there if I need a break.
she's on me about organizing her closet, she wants to focus on papers which is all good and fine but 4 people cannot work on papers. The closet is the easiest place to de-hoard and will give her storage for crap that should be behind closed doors. I've already been fired 3 times, lol. Pray for us!
Is it the Roberto-Venn School of Luthiery......If I had another life to live over, I would do the same. You should be pleased he has a passion. Tell him an old retired cop is jealous and best of luck.
Chicken lady
5-3-16, 6:57am
Fresh start, do you have to be involved in her room at all? Can you just bow out of it, stay away, and let her work with the people she agreed to work with?
also, speaking as a hoarder - if the hoarder says she's ready to deal with papers but not the closet, bringing the closet into it could very easily short circuit the whole process. - the defensive anxiety around the closet keeps you from being able to address the papers.
if there are as many papers as you say, I'm thinking 4 people could work on them. There is the going through all the spaces finding the papers and getting them out job, the sorting the papers by category job (this person can also discard if there are categories that can be universally discarded, like "discard all newspapers more than a year old") the purging categories with your mom job, and the neatly organizing (filing, displaying) kept papers job. Also the carrying bags of discarded papers to your aunt's car for her to recycle job, because getting the stuff completely gone asap is critical.
again, whatever you decide to do, I hope it goes well.
This could be a wacky and wild ride, freshstart! Hang in there!
also, speaking as a hoarder - if the hoarder says she's ready to deal with papers but not the closet, bringing the closet into it could very easily short circuit the whole process. - the defensive anxiety around the closet keeps you from being able to address the papers.
I never even thought of that, CL, thanks for pointing that out. I'm ready to do the closet but I didn't stop to think that she isn't. Personally, I think it would've been best that I not be involved in this process, we work that badly together. I do try to change the dynamic when we work on hoarding and it never changes. But my aunt kind of obligated me into it. I am sure as the day goes on and she becomes more stressed, I will be kicked out of the process that's why I made escape plans to have built in breaks.
in my head I understand hoarding and should know what not to do, in my heart, with my own mom, I fail at understanding the depths of it
Chicken lady
5-3-16, 10:00am
Totally get it. I have degrees in early childhood education and psychology with a child development concentration. Still found myself screaming at a three year old who wouldn't take a nap.
iris lilies
5-3-16, 11:40am
Please please please don't worry about saving things for the kids. Every single one of my and my husband's friends did this and no child wanted anything. The kids wanted their "own" stuff and nothing of their parents. Even if you are on good terms and keep telling them "look at the stuff I am saving for you", I can pretty much guarantee they will WANT none of it. They can even collect what they need for pennies on the dollar at garage sales and such and have the fun of searching it out...
Oh yeah, we STILL have a set of 1980's dishes that DH would not get rid of, but whenI suggested that we give them to a neice or nephew he was open to that. 25 years have passed, the nieces and nephews have no interest in a set of dishes from that era, they are worth $0, and I am stuck with them. Sitting in a box in the attic.
This is irnic because Imlve dishes but I de-hoarded my house of my own sets several years ago. Still have some sets but not 6 :cool:
Teacher Terry
5-3-16, 1:25pm
I would just magically make them disappear when he is not home:~)
she did well, my aunt and the GF were just very matter of fact, their goal was to conquer the paper and clear surfaces. She did not let me do the closet and in hindsight she probably would've lost it if she got pushed any harder so it was just enough. Her desk and dresser and bookshelf are clear and cleaned. Humongous amts of paper left that room, papers dating from the 90s that she still wanted to keep but my aunt was persuasive. She had put boxes of papers in my dad's closet so he decided they were then his to decide what to do with and they are gone. They haven't left yet, I anticipate a little bit of a melt down when they leave but hopefully it will be tolerable. It is so nice to see clean and clear surfaces. She doesn't need to be embarrassed anymore to have visitors.
she did well, my aunt and the GF were just very matter of fact, their goal was to conquer the paper and clear surfaces. She did not let me do the closet and in hindsight she probably would've lost it if she got pushed any harder so it was just enough. Her desk and dresser and bookshelf are clear and cleaned. Humongous amts of paper left that room, papers dating from the 90s that she still wanted to keep but my aunt was persuasive. She had put boxes of papers in my dad's closet so he decided they were then his to decide what to do with and they are gone. They haven't left yet, I anticipate a little bit of a melt down when they leave but hopefully it will be tolerable. It is so nice to see clean and clear surfaces. She doesn't need to be embarrassed anymore to have visitors.
I am glad to hear it went seemingly well!
Something interesting is how your aunt and the GF pulled it off.
When my grandmother (a major hoarder!) had to move from a big house when her husband died to a smaller house she would not let just anyone help her with her hoard. Only my aunt Kathy was allowed to help. It was like for my grandmother the power to choose one person made trashing stuff somehow more tolerable.
Chicken lady
5-3-16, 1:57pm
A desk, dresser, and bookshelf are a huge accomplishment!
set up a cozy spot on the couch with some food and or beverages that you both like and watch a show. You guys enjoyed that right? And it should be a good comfort/destressor for her.
I agree with Chicken Lady. If you can facilitate some de-stressing without taxing yourself much, that would be ideal.
oh and only one box of papers got added to the basement hoard. She's kept journals of every single pill she takes (and there are tons per day), the result of every MD appt and every single time the nurse visits. They go back to the 90s and she truly feels there is info in there someday one of her doctors will need. There was no convincing her that at least the very old ones could go. But keeping only one box is way better than I anticipated. They left, she's in horrible pain and I'm hoping she will sleep a while. A good job partway done!
A desk, dresser, and bookshelf are a huge accomplishment!
set up a cozy spot on the couch with some food and or beverages that you both like and watch a show. You guys enjoyed that right? And it should be a good comfort/destressor for her.
tonight she goes to listen to a deacon speak and she needs to rest the rest of the day to be able to go to that. But I will find time tomorrow to reward her, I'm very proud of her.
A good job partway done!
:+1:
I am glad to hear it went seemingly well!
Something interesting is how your aunt and the GF pulled it off.
When my grandmother (a major hoarder!) had to move from a big house when her husband died to a smaller house she would not let just anyone help her with her hoard. Only my aunt Kathy was allowed to help. It was like for my grandmother the power to choose one person made trashing stuff somehow more tolerable.
my aunt and the cleaning lady are definitely these people for her. I am so not her chosen person, I am amazed we had no arguments today (probably the presence of the GF helped with this). It's like she sees me coming and shuts right down. I can accept I am not her person, I'm just very glad there are other people who are.
Chicken lady
5-3-16, 3:02pm
Well, you can label that box, tape it shut, and know you can take it straight to the recycling some day.
if she can sleep, that's great. I was just trying to think of something that would let her relax and shift focus.
I kept checking on her, sleeping like a baby. It always gets me to see her sleeping these days, she has to sit straight up to breathe and her chin rests on her chest, she just looks so sick and vulnerable. This last time I checked she was awake for a few minutes and I told her how proud I was of her. She started to cry and say she was grouchy to everyone, but I assured her that she really was not, not even to me. She's back asleep. This was one of the good days.
This was one of the good days.
:)
Teacher Terry
5-3-16, 3:58pm
So glad it went well.
welp, the next day we found a pile of papers from the 90s on the kitchen table with a big note, "Do NOT Touch". She had somehow got into the recycling can (it is almost as tall as her, one of those huge ones on wheels) and somehow reached papers that were on the bottom. I have no idea how someone so sick could've gotten those papers. Hmm, now that I think of it, I know her grip-y thing on a stick had to have been involved, lol. For me to get those papers, I would've had to haul that heavy can over on it's side and crawled in to get papers in the bottom. Oh, well, it was only one stack and did not involve a huge emotional breakdown so what's done is done. It just reinforces to me that this level of hoarding is mental illness.
Don't feel too bad about this.
Honestly, this type of thing is predictably sad.
It's so much less than I predicted that I'm ok with it. I just feel bad for her having to live with it.
Teacher Terry
5-5-16, 6:07pm
It is really sad because it is a true disorder and not someone just not wanting to clean. Some back sliding is to be expected.
Hoarding is virtually impossible to overcome. It makes people do the craziest chit!
SSRI antidepressants and cognitive behavioral therapy are treatment options. I'd think those things should be in place before doing too much actual cleaning up of the environment.
SSRI antidepressants and cognitive behavioral therapy are treatment options. I'd think those things should be in place before doing too much actual cleaning up of the environment.
Those are options. The problem with them both is that their success right is abysmal.
my friend's mother was such a bad hoarder, she kept tampon applicators (she cleaned them at least). When she died, there were thousands to dispose of. I just keep thinking of how I won't have to deal with that and thank my lucky stars.
my friend's mother was such a bad hoarder, she kept tampon applicators (she cleaned them at least). When she died, there were thousands to dispose of. I just keep thinking of how I won't have to deal with that and thank my lucky stars.
Holy eff! That is real bad...
Chicken lady
5-5-16, 9:52pm
This is why it helps to have the helper take the stuff away with them, so you don't see the stuff again.
ultralite, it's a good thing I take you well salted. You could be discouraging.
iris lilies
5-5-16, 10:05pm
This is why it helps to have the helper take the stuff away with them, so you don't see the stuff again.
i know! I thought that would be happening.
1/3 of people who take SSRIs show improvement in hoarding. That's better than zero percent without treatment.
my mom is OCD with her many meds, she has pill boxes pre-filled and should theoretically just be able to open the right box and pop her pills. Instead, she will stand there for an hour, with meticulous record keeping and constant re-checking unless someone just stands next to her, then she is a bit better. So she saw a shrink for that OCD issue and went on cymbalta. the cymbalta interacted with other meds they think because she went looney when they tried to get her at a therapeutic dose, so she is on a baby dose. Never told the shrink she is a hoarder (not 100% sure she even believes she is) so she never got therapy for that. He was the only shrink in town who did meds and therapy for Medicare patients and he left. Now she'd have to go to a 15min shrink visit for meds and then a psychologist for CBT that she does not want for the pill situation, never mind the hoarding. I think she thinks the pill stuff is not fixable and would honestly believe she does not need help with hoarding. At any rate, it is hard to get her out and she was not keep on 2 more appts a month. I guess we'll see how she does with keeping up her room. There is a box for all new incoming papers. So theoretically, surfaces should remain clear.
I hate OCD and hoarding and really feel for the people and families who suffer with it much worse than we do. I saw a lot of it doing home care nursing over the years. One of the worst was a guy who could not dispose of his urine. It was in canning jars stacked in piles to the ceiling. He was a boarder a family took in to earn extra money, luckily they did not have the heart to kick him out for his various hoarding behaviors. But he put me off ever taking in a boarder, that's for sure.
i know! I thought that would be happening.
we thought we were safe with the giant recycling bin, I still don't know how she got the strength or the ability to get to the bottom of it. I know for next time!
Chicken lady
5-6-16, 6:43am
You all did a good job!
personally, I think cleaning out a little at a time with someone who gives you positive feedback IS behavioral therapy.
This is why it helps to have the helper take the stuff away with them, so you don't see the stuff again.
ultralite, it's a good thing I take you well salted. You could be discouraging.
I don't mean to be discouraging at all. I am just conveying what all the research has shown. So I am being realistic.
1/3 of people who take SSRIs show improvement in hoarding. That's better than zero percent without treatment.
What do they mean by improvement? Like they allow you to come in and check the smoke alarm? Or they let you dehoard one closet once?
The research shows they extremely few hoarders ever recover. That is why many suggest a "harm reduction" strategy. This is about making the person safer in the hoard or about setting boundaries for the children or friends of hoarders -- like: "If you have incredible anxiety going to your mom's hoarded house then perhaps the harm to you can be reduced by simply not going there."
I have read the entire cannon on hoarding.
I'd like to try her closet next because she believes strongly in giving to this town that was decimated by a hurricane 3 yrs ago, a very impoverished town, few jobs, many people lost their homes, etc. So knowing she is giving to them is a big motivator. Plus, the closet should be easy, she is not overly hoarded with clothing and shoes, most of it she cannot wear due to the huge amt of fluid she is retaining so I think she'll let a lot go. The hard one will be the shoes she never wore but now never will because the fluid has caused changes in the bone structure of her feet. She won't want to get rid of those shoes. She is less attached to clothing than papers. By cleaning out the closet, there will be room for many of her medical supplies that are in boxes on the BR floor and contribute to making the room feel cluttered.
and if she totally says "no", then it won't get done
not saying that CBT and SSRIs don't work, but I realize in my 19yrs of working in homes, I never once had a hoarder recover. But when I was doing traditional home care, we weren't usually in there very long, we got paths cleared to get the person out and made sure they had smoke alarms, basic safety issues, most couldn't maintain the cleared pathways. One woman lived in her tub, her only movement was from toilet to getting back into the tub, it was the only place left to lie down. We weren't there for hoarding, we were there for medical issues and safety checks. When it was hospice home care, hoarders died hoarders and few expressed wanting to change.
So my mother will be very interesting to me, to see how it ends up. So far has been more positive than negative but she always throws curveballs so who knows.
Chicken lady is a recovering hoarder right here in front of us. Some people do recover, the way I figure it, if they take no meds and do no therapy, they won't recover. If they do, they might. So why not try?
And I like the statement about someone working respectfully with a hoarder being therapy in and of itself.
Chicken lady is a recovering hoarder right here in front of us. Some people do recover, the way I figure it, if they take no meds and do no therapy, they won't recover. If they do, they might. So why not try?
And I like the statement about someone working respectfully with a hoarder being therapy in and of itself.
Don't get me wrong. I commend Chicken Lady for her effort and her progress!
And I agree with you that hoarders should take meds and do therapy. If there is even the slightest chance it would work then go for it.
My mom has been on happy pills since the 1990s, my dad was on them too and maybe still is. There hoarding has only gotten worse.
But here is what I mean:
Take a group of 100 stage 4 and stage 5 hoarders. Go into their house, take a pic of each room on Jan. 1, 2017.
Also on that day, start them on therapy and/or meds.
Then take another pic of each room in their house on Feb. 1, Mar. 1, Apr. 1 and so on.
Do this for an entire year.
I bet only one or two go from stage 4 or 5 down to stage 2 (at best). I bet plenty get worse or refuse to continue the program. I also bet that many take meds and do therapy and make no progress.
Google "Children of Hoarders." There are many, many people on there that tell their story. None of them are success stories.
Chicken lady
5-6-16, 1:06pm
So, FYI, I don't take meds, and I don't go to therapy. But I do have a really amazing support group of lay people who have never given up on me. I'm not sure what "stage" I would have been considered, since the hoarding was mostly confined to "my" areas, so for example, the kitchen was usually really messy, but the living room was often clean, and I was known to stash stuff in the kids' rooms "for now" and at times "my" areas were in boxes and piles over my head with tiny aisles.
So, FYI, I don't take meds, and I don't go to therapy.
Would you consider taking happy pills or seeing a shrink?
But I do have a really amazing support group of lay people who have never given up on me. I'm not sure what "stage" I would have been considered, since the hoarding was mostly confined to "my" areas, so for example, the kitchen was usually really messy, but the living room was often clean, and I was known to stash stuff in the kids' rooms "for now" and at times "my" areas were in boxes and piles over my head with tiny aisles.
Having a support network is important for everyone, not just hoarders.
The issue that few people -- hoarders, the people who love them, county agencies, etc. do not want to contend with (though sometimes they have no choice) is that of visual improvement of the hoarding. The monthly picture for a year or two can reveal how much progress is actually being made. This is like stepping on the scale. Many people don't want to do it. They don't want to know. They would rather try to convince themselves they are losing weight without evidence for such.
Check this out. I bolded the things that apply to my parents, for instance.
Level One:
All doors and stairways of the home are accessible. Normal household pet activity with light evidence of rodents or pests. One to three pet accidents evident. Clutter is not excessive. Home has normal, healthy housekeeping and safe and healthy sanitation. No odors.
Level Two:
One exit is blocked and/or one major appliance or heating/cooling/ventilation device has not worked for at least six months. Some pet odor, pet waste puddles, light pet dander, three or more incidents of feces in litter boxes. Limited fish, bird or reptile care and light to medium evidence of common household rodents/insects. Clutter inhabits two or more rooms. Functions are unclear for living room and bedrooms. Slightly narrowing pathways throughout the home. Limited evidence of housekeeping, light unpleasant odors, overflowing garbage cans, light to medium mildew in kitchens and bathrooms, and moderately soiled food preparation surfaces.
Level Three:
Visible clutter outdoors, including items normally stored indoors, such as televisions and sofas. Two or more broken appliances, inappropriate/excessive use of electrical cords and light structural damage in one portion of the house has occurred in the past six months. Pets exceed local limits, excluding well-cared-for new kitten and puppy litters. Stagnant fish tanks, neglected reptile aquarium and/or bird droppings not cleaned. Audible rodent evidence, light flea infestation and a medium amount of spider webs. Indoor clutter leads to narrow hall and stair pathways, one bedroom or bathroom isn't fully usable and small amount of obviously hazardous substances or spills. Excessive dust, dirty bed linens and no recent vacuuming or sweeping. Heavily soiled food preparation areas and full or odorous garbage cans. Dirty laundry exceeds three full hampers per bedroom. Strong unpleasant odors throughout the house.
Level Four:
Structural damage older than six months, mold and mildew, inappropriate use of appliances, damage to two or more sections of wall board, faulty weather protection, hazardous electrical wiring and odor or evidence of sewer backup. Pets exceed local limits by four animals, more than three instances of aged animal waste, pet dander on all furniture, pet damage in home, excessive webs and spiders, bats and raccoons in attic and flea infestation. Bedroom is unusable, hazardous materials are stored in the home, and flammable, packed materials are in the living area or attached garage. Rotting food on counters, one to 15 cans of aged canned goods with buckled surfaces, no clean dishes or utensils in kitchen. No bed covers, lice on bedding.
Level Five:
Obvious structural damage, broken walls, disconnected electrical service, no water service, no working sewer or septic system. Standing water indoors, fire hazards and hazardous materials exceed local ordinances. Pets are dangerous to occupant and guests. Rodents in sight, mosquito or other insect infestation and regional critters, such as squirrels, inside the home. Kitchen and bathroom unusable due to clutter. Occupant is living or sleeping outside the home. Human feces, rotting food and more than 15 aged canned goods with buckled surfaces inside the home.
Teacher Terry
5-6-16, 2:17pm
I can't stand to watch the showHoarders. I used to watch Clean house because their homes were not as bad. I would never be able to visit a home that had the bolded parts. So very sad.
I can't stand to watch the showHoarders. I used to watch Clean house because their homes were not as bad. I would never be able to visit a home that had the bolded parts. So very sad.
Like I said, hoarding is a mental illness that makes people do some really crazy chit.
your parents have all the bolded behaviors? no wonder you have such a difficult time having a relationship with them. I have been in 3 homes that meet the level five requirements except that the person still tried to live there. I could never handle this with my mother but I did with strangers. I don't think we'd have a relationship, although she's terminally ill so I would feel obligated. I don't know how you do it UA
ApatheticNoMore
5-6-16, 5:28pm
At my families place one bathroom doesn't work and the other works poorly (although enough not to be unsanitary if you flush several times - but who knows how long that will last). I've offered to pay to have it fixed as there's some financial struggle, but no taking up the offer (which is really you can't give money away basically :0! And at a certain point it's like well well, I'm not rich, but I can't even give money away to provide decent living conditions). There's visual clutter outdoors (back yard). Though a lot of that bolded stuff doesn't apply mostly because food waste is cleaned as is pet waste. Which is pretty important - so thank heaven for small blessings I suppose ....
But personally I can attribute childhood stuff to one or many overt behaviors of my parents (hoarding, occasional violent outbursts, occasional verbal abuse etc.) but it all made a lot more sense when I learned that neglect is considered a form of abuse (well it is by some psychologists) and the overall handling my problems alone was constant and pervasive.
Silver linings you might get from a difficult childhood says one book: ability to adopt non-conventional things like: healthier eating, simple living (yes it said that :~)), meditation, broadscale compassion, better relationships with greater honesty (eventually, eventually but that is a long road - initially one tends to recreate), more comfort with difficult emotions and greater emotional awareness, not buying need to pretend to be happy all the time. It never said you would gain more than you lose by it.
You can say "mentally ill" but I suspect 50 or 60% of the population is mentally ill. A few are secret hoarders, but that's not 50 or 60% of people, but then there's depression and anxiety (and those meds are widely prescribed), addiction (drinking or using etc.), abuse of children and spouses etc. and there there are the sociopaths.
Chicken lady
5-6-16, 5:53pm
I started to address the different "levels" , but I'm afraid we're taking freshstart's thread off target.
i would not consider drugs. My experiences with drugs have led me to think that could be a really bad idea.
i would not be good at therapy. the whole concept makes me cynical.
if anybody wants to talk to me more about this, I'd be glad to move it back to the recovering hoarders thread or a new thread so this one stays focused on freshstart's experience. (Which I still think sounds hopeful - what's the story on the basement?)
the basement will start at the end of the month when my mom's niece and her roommate need a place to stay.
you can talk about anything you want in this thread, I do not mind at all. I'm gaining insight as the days go by
Chicken lady
5-6-16, 10:03pm
So, this was me at the worst, but there is stuff that isn't on here. There were rooms that were unusable, but they aren't bed and bathrooms, one was supposed to be the dining room, it was wall to wall box maze. There is no indicator for "it takes ten minutes to clean off a table every time somebody wants to eat, and then the stuff gets moved back because it was on the floor or couch. There is no "most chairs in the home are covered in ten or more books or items of clothing". There is no "if the house collapsed the stuff in the basement would keep it above ground". I lost Dd's birth certificate for nine years. It doesn't say "stuff is stored in cars". Or "clean laundry exceeds 3 or more hampers per bedroom" or "toys are everywhere because there is nowhere to put them away"
we have one mostly outdoor cat, and food only went bad if it got lost in the the back of the fridge or I brought in so many applesauce or tomatoes that they rotted before I got them processed. That did happen.
but it never really got filthy, just full and messy. I'm a rotten housekeeper. That hasn't changed. I dislike cleaning and nobody else does it. So we almost always have dust and cobwebs and a dustpan worth of dirt and dust bunnies on the floors.
Level One:
All doors and stairways of the home are accessible. Normal household pet activity with light evidence of rodents or pests.
Level Two:
Clutter inhabits two or more rooms. Slightly narrowing pathways throughout the home. Limited evidence of housekeeping, moderately soiled food preparation surfaces.
Level Three:
Visible clutter outdoors, a medium amount of spider webs. one bedroom isn't fully usable. Excessive dust, no recent vacuuming or sweeping.
ApatheticNoMore
5-6-16, 11:21pm
Or "clean laundry exceeds 3 or more hampers per bedroom
but what is even wrong with that? A lot of clothes sort of, but if you prefer to store your clothes in hampers than closets that seems to me just a matter of preference. my clothes are mostly in drawers because i dislike putting everything on hangers. ok, so what? If it's because the closets have other storage ok, but that might also be a matter of preference as well.
I dislike cleaning and nobody else does it.
well that may be part of the problem there ...
I assume these levels are fluid, you may have stuff from one level up but not most of it and you more like the level below, meaning the levels aren't cut and dry, right?
CL, why does all the cleaning have to fall to you? I forget if you live with adult children but know you have DH. Couldn't it be a team effort with each person taking responsibility for a certain area? You have enough to do with eating the elephant, why should you be the only one cleaning, too?
Chicken Lady, I suspect that many more people live like that rather than the TV or magazine photos we see.
Chicken lady
5-7-16, 7:48am
The clean laundry was in hampers because the drawers and closets were full. At one point a closet rod/bar tore out of the wall and fell through the door, breaking the door knob.
the cleaning fell to me because at first I was home all day with babies, and then young children, and then homeschooled children, and they did learn to clean, but like dh refused to clean rooms that were stuffed and overflowing. Their rooms got better - except the youngest. I'm working with her so she doesn't become me.
Now dh doesn't help clean because I am still home three days a week and he works very long hours, and he fixes things and is building me an addition. Sometimes he cooks. I actually like doing laundry, but not putting it away.
my point is, except at the extremes, I don't think that filth is the key indicator of hoarding. Hoarding is a behavior. Not cleaning us a behavior. They don't always overlap until the hoard gets so bad it's physically impossible to clean. If you "churn" constantly, you can remove a lot of the dirt from the hoard. If you don't hoard animals, food or garbage, you don't have the animal related hoarding issues.
Chicken Lady, I suspect that many more people live like that rather than the TV or magazine photos we see.
agreed. My clean laundry sits around sometimes until it's time to do more laundry
my point is, except at the extremes, I don't think that filth is the key indicator of hoarding. Hoarding is a behavior. Not cleaning us a behavior. They don't always overlap until the hoard gets so bad it's physically impossible to clean. If you "churn" constantly, you can remove a lot of the dirt from the hoard. .
this was my experience growing up, the hoard got moved to occasionally clean. The piles of papers got put on the floor to eat at the kitchen table.
Teacher Terry
5-8-16, 1:14pm
When I was working f.t. I had cleaners 1x/month because then I could come home to a clean home. It was a lot easier then to keep it up and $ well spent. Now that I am semi-retired I do it myself since it is good exercise. I constantly pick up stuff and put it away, sweep, mop & dust each room weekly and do bathrooms about 2x's/month.That way things never get to bad. I have also discovered too that less things equals must less time to clean. I have never missed or re-bought anything I have gotten rid of. I have helped a few friends get rid of massive amounts of stuff. One went back to their old ways but the others have stayed uncluttered.
my parents' cleaning lady is a God send, she connected with my mom and they've become good friends. She can de-hoard with her. She came the day after and was so positive with what my mom had done telling her now she could really clean in there, her attitude really helped. having her makes me more tidy because I will not leave clutter out or anything to slow her down or make her job more difficult. I've tried taking back some of the cleaning, I can do things at waist height, if I have to bend down and then stand up repeatedly, I get pretty bad. We had company coming and I tried to scrub down my BR and fell so much it was unreal. I am so lucky to have someone who helps, a side benefit of living here, although I hired her twice a month when I worked.
your parents have all the bolded behaviors? no wonder you have such a difficult time having a relationship with them. I have been in 3 homes that meet the level five requirements except that the person still tried to live there. I could never handle this with my mother but I did with strangers. I don't think we'd have a relationship, although she's terminally ill so I would feel obligated. I don't know how you do it UA
Yes, they have the bolded behaviors and conditions. They had a "pet" raccoon on the porch they named "Tyrone, the porch coon."
freshstart
5-9-16, 11:29am
suddenly I totally get your need to own 154 things
Ultralight
5-9-16, 11:31am
suddenly I totally get your need to own 154 things
:laff:
Yup!
https://www.challengingdisorganization.org/ Lots of good information here - UltraliteAngler, is this where you got your information? Looks familiar.
freshstart
5-18-16, 11:05am
thank you!
Ultralight
5-18-16, 11:07am
Any updates on this situation?
freshstart
5-18-16, 12:08pm
her room looks all cluttered again but not horribly so, my aunt comes tomorrow so I'm betting she will tidy it up rather than have her see it
the basement hasn't been started yet, I am so dreading that
Ultralight
5-18-16, 12:22pm
My heart goes out to you. You know this.
Teacher Terry
5-18-16, 12:57pm
Sorry. Hugs:))
freshstart
5-18-16, 2:26pm
Thx,guys. It helps to be able to talk about it openly instead of being ashamed
iris lilies
5-18-16, 4:11pm
her room looks all cluttered again but not horribly so, my aunt comes tomorrow so I'm betting she will tidy it up rather than have her see it
the basement hasn't been started yet, I am so dreading that
What is the plan for moving things off your property same day as they are tossed? Seems like you said these young women may be takng some of the Furniture,mbut will those chosen items sit around ypur nasement or garage until they leave? That may not be the best plan.
freshstart
5-18-16, 5:05pm
the girls have not sat down and had a conversation about when they are planning to do the work, I encouraged my parents (since they made the deal with them for organizing in exchange for food/lodging) to talk to them and they have not done so. I do not want to be put in charge of this project right now so I'm not jumping in and pushing them. My dad has fallen 5 times in 4 days and can't remember things so he just had an MRI of his brain today because he changed kind of fast. My mom is in the middle of being worked up to see if she needs dialysis so honestly, this came at the worst time- 2 weeks before my brother's out of state wedding. Plus, my uncle died last night. So my guess is this is not going to happen or they will keep up their end and just do their best to organize like with like. I'd be fine with that. I don't want to sound negative but getting my mom out to just see my uncle the other day for 1/2 an hour, conked her out for another whole day. I have no idea how I am going to get her through this wedding. Never mind a massive basement clean out. I wish we could take a raincheck.
Oh Freshstart, hugs to you and some peaceful thoughts.
iris lilies
5-18-16, 5:42pm
I was wondering why your family had to travel to a far away wedding when you first mentioned it weeks ago. Seems to me that is not practical. If your father is suddenly takng a turn for the worse thats the primary factor to consider now. You seem to have no help with your parents, all of you have serious medical problems, and I dont understand why everyone feels compelled to attend a wedding.
sure, it would be nice. But its not necessary.
freshstart
5-18-16, 7:00pm
it's my brother's wedding, my mother would never, ever miss that. My father would, he would put his health first. They have done lots of things to make it easier for her, like the bride's parents' own the BandB so she has a room on the first floor and can go lie down during the rehearsal and the wedding. We're bringing a friend to just be my mom's caretaker that weekend. My dad, despite what's going on, is still walking, driving, etc., half the problem is he trips in his damn Birkenstocks. My mom has a nurse and an aide through Palliative Care. The aide is a huge help and we also have a cleaning lady who now comes and does more stuff for my parents, like their laundry. My dad is giving up mowing the lawn and hiring that out this year. So I do have help.
But like I said in the other thread, resentment between sibs can grow real fast and there have been times when my brother refused to even answer texts with desperate pleas for help. He and i are not on solid ground when it comes to my parents. He chooses to ignore the crisis usually even though he is only 3 hours away. I figure my job is getting them to and from the wedding, any crisis that occurs while there he better plan on being involved in it. He won't abandon them in public so there's that going for me.
Actually, the more I write the more ticked I am. The only sensical wedding option was for it to be here, in my brother's hometown. I know they saved money by using her parents BandB but it has been and will be a huge PITA compared to just something simple here. It was a selfish move by them and they have the money to have had it down here. My brother has always been an incredibly selfish person. She seems sweet and I get she wanted it at her parents BandB but she is in her late 30s, old enough to realize sometimes you don't get your fantasy wedding. Right this moment, I am not feeling the love towards my brother.
freshstart - I'm going to throw something out there for consideration. Do you have to go to the wedding? Do you want to go?
Your brother chose to have his wedding out of the area (state? don't remember), your mom is choosing to attend the wedding. Despite your compromised health, and the sacrifices required on your part, you've done a lot of work to get her ready to attend. And you have hired a caretaker for her for the trip.
Instead of attending the wedding and taking on all the stress that entails, could you stay home and rest instead? Take a much needed breather? You deserve to be taken care of too.
iris lilies
5-19-16, 11:52am
Well OP, I wish you well. Seems like you have drawn useful boundaries as in you will get her there but after that, not your jam.
We just wonder if you need to draw those boundaries a bit tighter.
i understand seniors who "never, ever" could miss a wedding. Ive privately rolled my eyes in some of these situations where the support to get them there seems herculean.
But on the flip side, it is a good thing for elderly and all people actually to take ourselves out of our everyday lives, to prepare for the big event and to attend it. It builds family ties and gives us a fresh point of view, getting out of our regular routine.
Chicken lady
5-19-16, 12:45pm
My dd rescheduled her wedding in order to have the reception at a time and place she liked and could afford and in order for her friends to be able to attend. She contacted everyone except dh parents - who were on an international trip. Because they never take their cell phones with them or get on-line when they leave to country, the only way to contact them would have been to call the travel company and get patched through to a cruise ship. In Egypt.
She had a 48 hour window. i made the decision to tell her to go ahead.
they came back and are very upset because they are going to miss the wedding. They have a trip to Iceland. It was booked for three couples and cannot be rescheduled. Also, they "don't mind losing the money, but if there aren't 6 people the travel company won't take the trip, so nobody else gets to go." (Really? Anybody know of a resort that would turn down paid in full for six, only serving 4? I'm pretty sure she means "don't mind losing the deposit"). And they couldn't find anybody who was willing to go in their place, so there wouldn't be six people. (Again, really? Neither of these other couples knows anyone who wants a free vacation to Iceland?)
and mil mil is just devastated. (Really? I'm thinking mil is angry and probably sad that she has to chose. But is choosing Iceland. And everyone else is fine with that!)
all of of which is to say - people get married. They plan the wedding around what is most important to them personally. And other people have to work around that based on their priorities. It appears that being at her son's wedding is more important to your mom than it is to your brother. What is most important to you?
freshstart
5-19-16, 4:44pm
because I am pretty sure this is the last hurrah, it is most important to get her there to me. Not for my brother's sake but for my mom's. And I won't stay home because I am pretty sure this is the "last hurrah" for us as a family in terms of family functions. I want to be there for the last family photos. I also, despite having a love/hate relationship with my brother, would never miss his wedding. But I plan to ask people freely if I'm not feeling well and have had enough, to give me a ride over to my nearby hotel to rest. This is physically a lot for me, too. I'll be there but I may miss some of it in order to rest up. I hope my mother will do the same
Chicken lady
5-19-16, 5:14pm
It sounds like you know what you want and what you are willing to do to get it and have a good plan!
because I am pretty sure this is the last hurrah, it is most important to get her there to me. Not for my brother's sake but for my mom's. And I won't stay home because I am pretty sure this is the "last hurrah" for us as a family in terms of family functions. I want to be there for the last family photos. I also, despite having a love/hate relationship with my brother, would never miss his wedding. But I plan to ask people freely if I'm not feeling well and have had enough, to give me a ride over to my nearby hotel to rest. This is physically a lot for me, too. I'll be there but I may miss some of it in order to rest up. I hope my mother will do the same
Choosing to do something because you want it is very different than doing it out of obligation and I'm glad to hear that you're doing this for you, because you want it. I hope you have a wonderful time.
I hope the wedding goes smoothly and everyone has plenty of time to recuperate. It sounds like my idea of hell, but I understand how such occasions can be important to people.
iris lilies
5-23-16, 9:50pm
In reading over this thread, it occired to me that one source of consternation is papers. Paper, paper, paper.
I wonder if more humans will be helped when we have less paper. Or maybe we will never have less paper, I knowthere is a study that suggests the internet generates more paper than in previous times.
Please tell me people are not still printing out all of their email messages. Please!
freshstart
5-29-16, 1:34pm
I don't know anyone that prints out their emails anymore. Even my mom doesn't do that.
So the two girls leave this week and they never offered again to clean out the basement. The onus may have been on my mom to ask but if you stay for almost 3 weeks, you really should offer what you agreed to do again, IMHO. However, since I was not prepared to take this on before the wedding, I guess I don't care that it didn't happen. It's still a psychological burden knowing it's like that down there but I have all the time in the world to work on it. My mom got a stay of execution, lol, she's probably thrilled. Not one thing purged!
Teacher Terry
5-29-16, 1:41pm
I think that is terrible! If they ever ask again the answer is no.
iris lilies
5-29-16, 1:46pm
Too bad no purging took place.:(
Chicken lady
5-29-16, 2:08pm
Wow, I didn't realize they were already live there. Somehow I got the impression that the cleaning out was yo generated pace for them to stay,...
freshstart
5-29-16, 2:29pm
no, we have a family room with a pull out couch and a separate entrance, we've barely known they were here. But the deal was free lodging for 2-3 wks in exchange for organizing the basement (their idea). Our own fault for not holding them accountable.
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