PDA

View Full Version : The Men America Left Behind



pinkytoe
5-4-16, 9:41am
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/04/news/economy/america-left-behind-white-men/index.html?iid=hp-toplead-dom
There have been quite a few articles on this topic lately. I am wondering what simple livers think?
How do we turn this around? Or is it just tough luck for those going through it since they didn't have the wherewithall to see the changes coming and prepare?
I think it's a huge issue down the road that so many are down and out.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 9:46am
If they don't have a job and are not looking, how do they get a meal? How do they get a roof?

freshstart
5-4-16, 10:01am
I was wondering the same thing. The wife works, if there is one?

Ultralight
5-4-16, 10:06am
I think these out-of-work guys ought to go WWOOFing.

razz
5-4-16, 10:22am
OK, I am going to sound really cruel and unfeeling.

When the cotton mills closed down in the north of England losing lots of jobs offshore to India and other countries in the 1800's, men and families moved to North America, South Africa and Australis and elsewhere.

When jobs were lost in cod fishing off the Maritimes due to excess harvesting by factory ships in the late 1990's, those men moved west to the oil patch learning new skills and sending money home. They have now come home due to the oil price downturn and their communities are struggling again.

My point being that the full employment in high paying jobs requiring limited skills was and is a blip in history. The world has changed. Accept that and deal with it by knowing that jobs cannot be manufactured despite any foolish claims by politicians seeking election. Get training and move to find new opportunities as has been done by many generations in the past. Hammer it into your children's heads that they need to get educated and keep updating to stay employable. This is not something new for families to deal with. Be glad if you have a job of any kind. Don't expect that all jobs will easily support families in a good lifestyle on one income. That is not historically accurate except for the past 100 years which were not the norm but enabled by low oil prices and a burgeoning population. There are many other contributing factors to the affluence of the past 100 years but the last century is not the norm for society historically.

Deal with that reality and come up with ideas for the future. Stop looking into a rearview mirror and wanting the past to return.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 10:24am
OK, I am going to sound really cruel and unfeeling.

When the cotton mills closed down in the north of England losing lots of jobs offshore to India and other countries in the 1800's, men and families moved to North America, South Africa and Australis and elsewhere.

When jobs were lost in cod fishing off the Maritimes due to excess harvesting by factory ships in the late 1990's, those men moved west to the oil patch learning new skills and sending money home. They have now come home due to the oil price downturn and their communities are struggling again.

My point being that the full employment in high paying jobs requiring limited skills was and is a blip in history. The world has changed. Accept that and deal with it by knowing that jobs cannot be manufactured despite any foolish claims by politicians seeking election. Get training and move to find new opportunities as has been done by many generations in the past. Hammer it into your children's heads that they need to get educated and keep updating to stay employable. This is not something new for families to deal with. Be glad if you have a job of any kind. Don't expect that all jobs will easily support families in a good lifestyle on one income. That is not historically accurate except for the past 100 years which were not the norm but enabled by low oil prices and a burgeoning population. There are many other contributing factors to the affluence of the past 100 years but the last century is not the norm for society historically.

Deal with that reality and come up with ideas for the future. Stop looking into a rearview mirror and wanting the past to return.

United States citizenship is hereby bestowed upon you! ;)

Alan
5-4-16, 10:28am
Deal with that reality and come up with ideas for the future. Stop looking into a rearview mirror and wanting the past to return.
Razz, I like the cut of your jib!

Ultralight
5-4-16, 10:30am
I am wondering what simple livers think?

The answers I have given so far have been partly snarky (though I do think WWOOFing is a good option!).

I really think that adjusting one's expectations of life way, way down is the best thing to do.

Examples:

Oh, you thought you were going to get a great job that pays $35 an hour with no education? No. You get to bake pizzas at the Whole Foods for $12 an hour.

Oh, you thought you could have four kids and a wife? No. You get to have one kid or none, maybe you get a wife. Maybe!

Oh, you thought you could own two sweet cars and a motorcycle? Nope. You get a bus pass and a bicycle, maybe a carshare membership for taking family vacations to nowhere.

See how this goes?

LDAHL
5-4-16, 10:55am
OK, I am going to sound really cruel and unfeeling.

When the cotton mills closed down in the north of England losing lots of jobs offshore to India and other countries in the 1800's, men and families moved to North America, South Africa and Australis and elsewhere.

When jobs were lost in cod fishing off the Maritimes due to excess harvesting by factory ships in the late 1990's, those men moved west to the oil patch learning new skills and sending money home. They have now come home due to the oil price downturn and their communities are struggling again.

My point being that the full employment in high paying jobs requiring limited skills was and is a blip in history. The world has changed. Accept that and deal with it by knowing that jobs cannot be manufactured despite any foolish claims by politicians seeking election. Get training and move to find new opportunities as has been done by many generations in the past. Hammer it into your children's heads that they need to get educated and keep updating to stay employable. This is not something new for families to deal with. Be glad if you have a job of any kind. Don't expect that all jobs will easily support families in a good lifestyle on one income. That is not historically accurate except for the past 100 years which were not the norm but enabled by low oil prices and a burgeoning population. There are many other contributing factors to the affluence of the past 100 years but the last century is not the norm for society historically.

Deal with that reality and come up with ideas for the future. Stop looking into a rearview mirror and wanting the past to return.

That is hard to hear but true. There really isn't a government mandate that can make noncompetitive skill sets pay well in the long run. At best, government can provide retraining opportunities and at worst some form of the dole. Pretending that economic and technological change can be overcome by keeping foreign goods out and domestic capital at home by force only prolongs the pain.

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 11:35am
OK, I am going to sound really cruel and unfeeling.

When the cotton mills closed down in the north of England losing lots of jobs offshore to India and other countries in the 1800's, men and families moved to North America, South Africa and Australis and elsewhere.

When jobs were lost in cod fishing off the Maritimes due to excess harvesting by factory ships in the late 1990's, those men moved west to the oil patch learning new skills and sending money home. They have now come home due to the oil price downturn and their communities are struggling again.

My point being that the full employment in high paying jobs requiring limited skills was and is a blip in history. The world has changed. Accept that and deal with it by knowing that jobs cannot be manufactured despite any foolish claims by politicians seeking election. Get training and move to find new opportunities as has been done by many generations in the past. Hammer it into your children's heads that they need to get educated and keep updating to stay employable. This is not something new for families to deal with. Be glad if you have a job of any kind. Don't expect that all jobs will easily support families in a good lifestyle on one income. That is not historically accurate except for the past 100 years which were not the norm but enabled by low oil prices and a burgeoning population. There are many other contributing factors to the affluence of the past 100 years but the last century is not the norm for society historically.

Deal with that reality and come up with ideas for the future. Stop looking into a rearview mirror and wanting the past to return.You know, I'm going to do a 180 and agree with much of what you have said here. Like it or not, it's true what you have posted. I also very much repeat your take on the need for no country/geographic loyalty shown by your support of people fleeing where they are for better opportunities

. My take is in a world this uncertain young people should realistically have bags packed at all times and have no company or country loyalty whatsoever. Those days are over and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. For us older people such thinking opens up health care without fear of cost and lower costs overall in other countries - for those wise enough to rethink loyalty and put their overhead calculations first......and I mean this for any country....not just the US. I mean this for any job, too.

Everyone's calculations and priorities are different but the world has changed and you need to be constantly calculating whether the better deal is in another job or even another country. That's not being cold....that's simply being a practical adult these days. Not a bad thing. Rob

ApatheticNoMore
5-4-16, 11:40am
I think some get a roof by going on disability (this is especially probable if they are late middle age but too young for social security and might by that age actually have a few physical problems even if their physical problems would not be disabling *IF* they could find a @#$# job). I would never even in the slightest fault anyone for using the disability system if they can't find work and it's all there is (oh if they just want to go on disability that's dubious - if you want to fight for a guaranteed income ok but disability was really never meant for that. But I mean really can't find work - because there really is no real safety net for the long term unemployed, so what are they to do?).

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 11:41am
Razz, I like the cut of your jib!Alan....I actually agree with you here. Surprised? Where we no longer agree is in how we deal with the reality that Razz has posted. But we seem to see it as it is until we branch off into different ways of dealing with it. Intetesting......Rob

Alan
5-4-16, 11:43am
Alan....I actually agree with you here. Surprised?
No, not surprised. You know the story of the stopped watch don't you? :D

LDAHL
5-4-16, 11:45am
You know, I'm going to do a 180 and agree with much of what you have said here. Like it or not, it's true what you have posted. I also very much repeat your take on the need for no country/geographic loyalty shown by your support of people fleeing where they are for better opportunities

. My take is in a world this uncertain young people should realistically have bags packed at all times and have no company or country loyalty whatsoever. Those days are over and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. For us older people such thinking opens up health care without fear of cost and lower costs overall in other countries - for those wise enough to rethink loyalty and put their overhead calculations first......and I mean this for any country....not just the US. I mean this for any job, too.

Everyone's calculations and priorities are different but the world has changed and you need to be constantly calculating whether the better deal is in another job or even another country. That's not being cold....that's simply being a practical adult these days. Not a bad thing. Rob

Is the fact that you're still here evidence that you consider the US to be the best deal available to you?

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 11:50am
I think some get a roof by going on disability (this is especially probable if they are late middle age but too young for social security and might by that age actually have a few physical problems even if their physical problems would not be disabling *IF* they could find a @#$# job). I would never even in the slightest fault anyone for using the disability system if they can't find work and it's all there is (oh if they just want to go on disability that's dubious - if you want to fight for a guaranteed income ok but disability was really never meant for that. But I mean really can't find work - because there really is no real safety net for the long term unemployed, so what are they to do?).I'm starting to believe that when a middle aged person in the Western world loses a good job, it's a sign they are meant to leave the West for somewhere less expensive and just check out of the Western world provided they have some assets - places like the Phillipines for example are not hard to qualify for.......this option sure beats grinding down your assets over a stretch of long term unemployment and dealing with age discrimination. It's a bit of a middle finger salute to society too, which will work for some people.....for others more practical it's just a practical business decision to cut your losses and run. I'm glad more people are waking up to this and having off the wall and unexpected second chapters in their lives.....Rob

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 11:50am
No, not surprised. You know the story of the stopped watch don't you? :D? Rob

Alan
5-4-16, 11:52am
? Rob
It's right twice a day.

catherine
5-4-16, 11:56am
I thought of this thread on my way from the airport to the hotel just now. The cab driver was a talker, but a really nice, upbeat guy. He came here from Somalia 7 years ago to give his family a better opportunity. This guy knew more about politics and American history than probably 90% of Americans do. We talked about the merits of Trump vs. Hillary vs. Bernie, how term limits would be a great thing, how the independents are going to decide the election. Then he went on to tell me anecdote after anecdote about Andrew Jackson, Alexander Hamilton, Aaron Burr, Ted Kennedy, etc. etc.

He works two jobs: one job for an organization that helps refugees and he also drives the cab so he can put his kids through college--his oldest daughter got a scholarship to Emory and will be going there in the fall.

He didn't stand for being left behind in Somalia.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 11:56am
I'm starting to believe that when a middle aged person in the Western world loses a good job, it's a sign they are meant to leave the West for somewhere less expensive and just check out of the Western world provided they have some assets - places like the Phillipines for example are not hard to qualify for.......this option sure beats grinding down your assets over a stretch of long term unemployment and dealing with age discrimination. It's a bit of a middle finger salute to society too, which will work for some people.....for others more practical it's just a practical business decision to cut your losses and run. I'm glad more people are waking up to this and having off the wall and unexpected second chapters in their lives.....Rob

Do you plan to leave?

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 11:56am
Is the fact that you're still here evidence that you consider the US to be the best deal available to you?God no, not at all. I am here as my Mother's health is declining and I want to do what I can to see that her life is safe and comfortable until it's end whenever that is. Then I'm out. My husband and I are considering the Phillipines.....not hard to get into......I can raise the cash in the bank requirement by selling my interest in the house I co-own. It's just too economically hostile in the US now and the expectations on Americans overall are too unrealistic. Life is short, I did not make things the way they are and I have no problem leaving once my Mom is no longer here. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 11:57am
Do you plan to leave?Yes. Read my last post for details. Rob

Ultralight
5-4-16, 11:59am
Yes. Read my last post for details. Rob

You are really doing that?

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 11:59am
It's right twice a day.Lol. I see what you mean. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 12:03pm
You are really doing that?Yes. Life is short and I just don't want to struggle endlessly. The Phillipines are a realistic option both in requirements to legally live there and in living costs. Health care is not a nightmare there and it's a chance to unplug and experience quality in my life. I'd say for me the opportunity cost of finishing up in the US is not only too high but just unbearable. Rob

Ultralight
5-4-16, 12:05pm
Yes. Life is short and I just don't want to struggle endlessly. The Phillipines are a realistic option both in requirements to legally live there and in living costs. Health care is not a nightmare there and it's a chance to unplug and experience quality in my life. I'd say for me the opportunity cost of finishing up in the US is not only too high but just unbearable. Rob

Have you lived in a third world country before?

Tenngal
5-4-16, 12:06pm
if companies who relocate for cheaper labor are not allowed to sell the goods in the USA, would that make a difference? I know I am willing to pay a little more for USA products. We need manufacturing jobs back. period.

ApatheticNoMore
5-4-16, 12:10pm
God no, not at all. I am here as my Mother's health is declining and I want to do what I can to see that her life is safe and comfortable until it's end whenever that is.

that's a problem there, having people to take care of (parents or kids) might not be perfectly coincide with when one needs to get out economically.

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 12:11pm
Have you lived in a third world country before?Yes. In 1996 I spent several months in a bad part of Guadalajara. It was so hard to come back to the US after that and the never ending meaningless expectations of this society after that. I had a really hard time readjusting and should have known right then and there the best move for me personally was an exit. I've also spent a few months in Fresnillo - before it was overrun by cartels when I desperately needed to unplug. Rob

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 12:14pm
if companies who relocate for cheaper labor are not allowed to sell the goods in the USA, would that make a difference? I know I am willing to pay a little more for USA products. We need manufacturing jobs back. period.Agreed. But at a higher wages than the temp firms that would staff such jobs typically offer. Rob

LDAHL
5-4-16, 12:19pm
if companies who relocate for cheaper labor are not allowed to sell the goods in the USA, would that make a difference? I know I am willing to pay a little more for USA products. We need manufacturing jobs back. period.

I would expect the other countries would retaliate in kind, and we would lose jobs related to goods or services they import from us.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 12:24pm
if companies who relocate for cheaper labor are not allowed to sell the goods in the USA, would that make a difference? I know I am willing to pay a little more for USA products. We need manufacturing jobs back. period.

I think it is less about manufacturing and more about values.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 12:26pm
Besides, manufacturing will come back when Americans are willing to live the the average Bangladeshi.

freshstart
5-4-16, 12:39pm
what happens to the aging boomers who did not save enough for retirement, get ill and need help from their children? It's one thing living across the country from them but quite another to be in an entirely different country.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 12:43pm
what happens to the aging boomers who did not save enough for retirement, get ill and need help from their children? It's one thing living across the country from them but quite another to be in an entirely different country.

Bad stuff happens. But them's the breaks.

ApatheticNoMore
5-4-16, 12:45pm
what happens to the aging boomers who did not save enough for retirement, get ill and need help from their children?

well their children are probably in even worse shape financially than them so ....

bae
5-4-16, 12:54pm
I really think that adjusting one's expectations of life way, way down is the best thing to do.


I grew up as a hillbilly. For years lived in a single-wide trailer with my parents and grandparents. Grandpa repaired small engines, grandma worked as slave labor at the bakery in town, Mom was a nurse, Dad worked for a collection agency...collecting... Our Amish neighbors looked like millionaires to us.

I'm sort of glad we didn't adjust our expectations down from there.

Dhiana
5-4-16, 1:16pm
Being flexible and having one's bags packed as a previous poster mentioned has been vital for us. Be ready not just for the next opportunity but the for the next speed bump that life brings.

Yes. All easier said than done as I'm finishing up move #28.

We are not young anymore, but still believe it's essential to be as flexible as possible. We do have aging parents back in the states, stockpiling vacation time, having even more in the Emergency Fund, and those important conversations with nearby family is the best we can do at this point.

We have several friends who are in difficult situations because of their unwillingness or inability to move to a more advantageous location.

Teacher Terry
5-4-16, 1:18pm
When I was helping people with disabilities get back to work the hardest people to work with were the ones from rural areas. They would not even consider moving. Then I would pick up a newspaper and show them the help wanted ads and say pick one. There was no point in career testing, career counseling, etc if you won't move. WE have lived in 5 states and it has not been by choice-it was for work. Also it has become incredibly hard to get disability now unless you are terminal. At one point it was too easy and now it is too hard. The aging poor boomers don't need to rely on their kids. There is plenty of government resources: low income senior apartments, food stamps, medicare and medicaid, etc. AARP also pays seniors to work in jobs . We had some from there that were doing state work although they were not state employees.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 1:20pm
When I was helping people with disabilities get back to work the hardest people to work with were the ones from rural areas. They would not even consider moving.

Why?

Teacher Terry
5-4-16, 1:21pm
Often their families had lived there for generations and they couldn't imagine living anywhere else.

bae
5-4-16, 1:22pm
This has all happened before, and it will happen again.

http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/wp-content/uploads/okies_san_diego1.jpg

http://image.pbs.org/video-assets/pbs/dust-bowl/30746/images/Mezzanine_592.jpg

http://www.michelleparsons.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/great-depression.gif

Ultralight
5-4-16, 1:23pm
Often their families had lived there for generations and they couldn't imagine living anywhere else.

That is it? A lack of imagination?

Teacher Terry
5-4-16, 1:28pm
For the rural clients we would pay to retrain them so they could work if their were jobs available locally in the field they wanted to be retrained in. If not they would have to agree to move so the agency had not wasted their $. Most would not agree.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 1:38pm
I fail to see how not agreeing is an option. How do they pay for their dang groceries?

Teacher Terry
5-4-16, 1:46pm
Live with family, food stamps, medicaid etc.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 1:46pm
Live with family, food stamps, medicaid etc.

What family would put up with that?

gimmethesimplelife
5-4-16, 1:50pm
What family would put up with that?Many families in the neighborhood I live in do. Rob

bae
5-4-16, 1:56pm
What family would put up with that?

A real, functional family.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 2:02pm
Okay, welp... I guess a dysfunctional family would say: "Hey Mitch, that place is going to train you for a good job but you need to move from here in Backwater, WV to Springfield, IL. Get training! We'll pack your stuff."

LDAHL
5-4-16, 2:03pm
Home is the place
where, when you have
to go there, they have to
take you in.

- Robert Frost

Ultralight
5-4-16, 2:05pm
Home is the place
where, when you have
to go there, they have to
take you in.

- Robert Frost

That is an interesting definition.

bae
5-4-16, 2:07pm
Okay, welp... I guess a dysfunctional family would say: "Hey Mitch, that place is going to train you for a good job but you need to move from here in Backwater, WV to Springfield, IL. Get training! We'll pack your stuff."

Some families value other things than jobs or money, and do not require efficient participation in the mainstream capitalist economy for family membership.

My grandparents on both my mother's and father's sides were heartbroken when we moved from Ohio to California seeking better jobs and economic circumstances. As were my aunts/uncles/cousins. We went from seeing family every week or two to seeing them every few years at best.

JaneV2.0
5-4-16, 2:08pm
“All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” --Leo Tolstoy

Ultralight
5-4-16, 2:14pm
Well, I never really thought of home that way. I was kicked out of my parents' house when I was in high school. I lived with my grandmother for a while, then I rented a run-down apartment with friends.

For me "home" is tenuous. Like my home now is the apartment I live in. But it is not a welcoming or supportive arrangement. It is just like this: "I work, I pay them, they let me keep one of their roofs over my head."

ApatheticNoMore
5-4-16, 2:15pm
If mobility is the be all and end all (and it's not just rural backwaters with miniscule populations - which trust me I do not have the solution to. But consider what happened to major cities like Detroit - that was no backwater!) then it will produce detached alienated people.

How could it not when they are forever moving away from family and friends (and place) or else their family and friends are forever moving away from them? How to form lasting relationships with anyone that way except perhaps one's own spouse and kids? Now this is basically entirely proven to be bad for human well being to be so isolated. But this ideal is what we think everyone should adopt to ... even though it's bad for human beings. Isn't there something wrong with that?

Oh I have no problem with someone who truly does have the wanderlust. Let them wander. I'm saying we are imposing as an ideal something that is not very congruent with basic human nature. Of course this will tend to produce suffering.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 2:24pm
If mobility is the be all and end all (and it's not just rural backwaters with miniscule populations - which trust me I do not have the solution to. But consider what happened to major cities like Detroit - that was no backwater!) then it will produce detached alienated people.

How could it not when they are forever moving away from family and friends (and place) or else their family and friends are forever moving away from them? How to form lasting relationships with anyone that way except perhaps one's own spouse and kids? Now this is basically entirely proven to be bad for human well being to be so isolated. But this ideal is what we think everyone should adopt to ... even though it's bad for human beings. Isn't there something wrong with that?

Oh I have no problem with someone who truly does have the wanderlust. Let them wander. I'm saying we are imposing as an ideal something that is not very congruent with basic human nature. Of course this will tend to produce suffering.

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to settle in to some place on the coast, ride my bike to the beach, do some surf-casting, then go home and grill up my catch with my significant other and my friends and neighbors who I know well and consider part of my social support network.

But life ain't like that for most people. Paying the bills trumps everything because without paying the bills me and Harlan go hungry, have no roof over our head, and no healthcare.

So I will move and be isolated in order to keep a job to pay my bills (which I try to keep quite low).

Mary B.
5-4-16, 2:37pm
A real, functional family.

+1

Mary B.
5-4-16, 2:41pm
Going back in the thread to the "how to do they get a meal" question, I'm thinking there would be a fair bit of off-the-books work too. It does sound like the cost of living is lower in that area, so a little would go some distance. There's also record demand on food banks etc in Canada, and I expect that is the same in Ohio.

It's an awful situation. I actually remember my father talking about it -- predicting it, really -- back in the 1970s and 1980s. We lived near the Canadian railway main line and every town across the prairies had a "section gang" -- a group of half a dozen or so labourers who fixed the railway track, replacing rails and ties and such. In our little town, they were all guys with families who lived in the little village. Those jobs disappeared with new approaches to rail line maintenance; it all got automated, with a giant machine coming along from time to time laying hugely long rail sections (my memory says a quarter of a mile) which needed less maintenance (since there were fewer joints.)

I remember my Dad asking, "What are they supposed to do now?"

The question is still relevant, and now more broadly applicable. Expecting everyone to get training and move seems as unrealistic as expecting everyone to stay put and have great jobs where they are.

As to why people stay in rural areas -- one part of it may well be economic wisdom. Where I grew up, virtually everyone owned there own house (at that point real estate was very cheap. I'm not sure the term 'real estate' had actually been invented -- it was just houses. I remember my Dad bought one for a family member for $1400.) If you're living in a paid-for house with minimal taxes in a place with a garden, moving to an urban area for an entry-level position and the cost of rent doesn't seem so obviously wise to me.

catherine
5-4-16, 2:45pm
Oh I have no problem with someone who truly does have the wanderlust. Let them wander. I'm saying we are imposing as an ideal something that is not very congruent with basic human nature. Of course this will tend to produce suffering.

Well said.

pinkytoe
5-4-16, 2:46pm
a more advantageous location
People are flocking here (Austin) because of opportunity and jobs. Even with a paycheck, it becomes increasingly hard to afford living here because of rising housing prices. We (aging boomers) are actually fleeing all that we know here so that we can survive financially. It means leaving family and familiarity but it is the best choice financially. It might present a hardship for DD someday when we are old and feeble but her life may change in unseen ways too by then. You do what you gotta do.

LDAHL
5-4-16, 3:01pm
Well, I never really thought of home that way. I was kicked out of my parents' house when I was in high school. I lived with my grandmother for a while, then I rented a run-down apartment with friends.

For me "home" is tenuous. Like my home now is the apartment I live in. But it is not a welcoming or supportive arrangement. It is just like this: "I work, I pay them, they let me keep one of their roofs over my head."

Threads like this make me realize what a lucky SOB I am.

Ultralight
5-4-16, 3:09pm
Threads like this make me realize what a lucky SOB I am.

You also have some skills, talents, and you appear well-adjusted. haha

But look, I have a friend in Kenya. She grew up rough in a rural area. When I talk to her I realize what a lucky SOB I am!

LDAHL
5-4-16, 3:25pm
You also have some skills, talents, and you appear well-adjusted. haha

But look, I have a friend in Kenya. She grew up rough in a rural area. When I talk to her I realize what a lucky SOB I am!

Every year, my daughter's school has a theme for the year (they print it on a T-shirt, so you know they're serious). This year's is "If you have a choice to be right or be kind, choose kind".

I'm thinking that if you have a choice to be smart or be lucky, choose lucky.

Teacher Terry
5-4-16, 4:28pm
When I would have a client through no fault of his/her own I would feel so lucky not to be in that spot. A serious illness or accident can wipe out many people. Ex: young doctor with big student loans gets in bad car accident and has severe head injury and can't work, man that lost both legs and works in a physical job and not very smart so re-training not really an option, etc.

razz
5-4-16, 4:54pm
A hundred years ago, the support system was a lot less than it is now and medical care is far more advanced helping individuals get back into functional status. We really need to count our blessings for the world today. There are challenges for sure but there are solutions as well but we have to willing to change.

Re families - how many families are actually in regular physical contact even if in close proximity? How many are using technology instead that could be done just as easily from a distance?

freshstart
5-4-16, 5:15pm
it makes me sad to see the demise of extended families actually spending time together, cousins growing up together and the elderly having several family members to fall back on. Those days are long gone

sweetana3
5-4-16, 5:27pm
My mother was part of the mass migration in the 30s from Missouri to California/Arizona. Back even farther, another generation was part of the migration from France to the US in the early 1800's. Another part of the family moved to Larado, TX. Sometimes we get so caught up in today or just a few yesterday's ago to realize in the scope of life, many have moved all around. Even the Amish have picked up and moved all over to establish new communities usually due to the high cost of land or the lack of land to buy to start new families. Their community/family is a significant part of their whole life and to move and start over is a "big" thing. But they do it because they have to and then reconnect and start over where they end up.

Right now, I have a brother in Alaska and a brother in Florida and I am in Indiana. Pieces of our family are in CA, on the east coast and in Missouri. We all moved or stayed for our own reasons. Mom moved from NY to IN to be closer to us. She had lived in her little town for 80 years.

Lainey
5-4-16, 8:17pm
Martin Ford's book, "Rise of the Robots" is an important read for this topic. http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-ca-jc-martin-ford-20150524-story.html

Latest numbers I've seen say 5 Million more U.S. jobs will be lost by 2020 to robotic technology. So it seems it's not going to matter much where you live - this is going to affect everyone everywhere.

And I agree that at that point, a small paid-off house in a rural area where you can garden and living is cheap would seem like a better idea than most.

Tammy
5-4-16, 9:26pm
A universal basic income was envisioned decades ago as the path for our future as technology handled more and more of our work.

LDAHL
5-5-16, 9:05am
A universal basic income was envisioned decades ago as the path for our future as technology handled more and more of our work.

In the past, it tended to be an idea put forward by conservatives, who saw it as a way to shrink government. Liberals were somewhat uncomfortable with the no-strings aspect. It's being looked at in a number of countries right now. There was an interesting piece on the idea in Bloomberg recently.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-05-03/taking-a-chance-on-universal-basic-income

Teacher Terry
5-5-16, 12:46pm
I would be for it with all the conditions mentioned in the article such as adults only, no one earning over 100k gets it and SS stays intact for seniors. It would provide people with much more dignity then having to qualify and sometimes being treated crappy by a worker to get the $.

LDAHL
5-5-16, 2:19pm
I would be for it with all the conditions mentioned in the article such as adults only, no one earning over 100k gets it and SS stays intact for seniors. It would provide people with much more dignity then having to qualify and sometimes being treated crappy by a worker to get the $.

According to the article, the human services workers' opposition was one reason it wasn't implemented in the Nixon years.

I'll be interested to see how that Swiss vote on 6/5 turns out. It looks like their basic income proposal roughly equates to a $15/hour wage.

I like the no-strings aspect of the idea, but I could see how people interested in social engineering might object to it. The amount paid out could be linked to the growth of the economy to keep it from becoming wildly inflationary.

bae
5-5-16, 2:55pm
Robots, fusion energy, 3D printers, nanotechnology, The Internet Of Things - all conspiring to push us to Frederick Pohl's "Midas World":

https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1954-04/Galaxy_1954_04#page/n7/mode/2up

LDAHL
5-5-16, 3:17pm
Robots, fusion energy, 3D printers, nanotechnology, The Internet Of Things - all conspiring to push us to Frederick Pohl's "Midas World":

https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1954-04/Galaxy_1954_04#page/n7/mode/2up

I love it that he drafts our technological and economic future on big sheets of paper.