View Full Version : Mr Trump willing to make an exception for one Muslim
IshbelRobertson
5-10-16, 8:42am
The new London Mayor has turned down the very generous offer to make an exception to his stated policy of banning all Muslims!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36256093
That's interesting. Wasn't it just a month or so ago that Parliament debated whether or not to ban Trump from the UK?
Identity politics may be the final victor in the world's war on liberty.
IshbelRobertson
5-10-16, 10:03am
Yes, I believe they did. In reply to his suggestion of a temporary ban on all Muslims, should he be elected! I think we used to call it 'tit for tat' in the primary school playground!
iris lilies
5-10-16, 10:37am
Yes, I believe they did. In reply to his suggestion of a temporary ban on all Muslims, should he be elected! I think we used to call it 'tit for tat' in the primary school playground!
I'm sorry that your elected officials waste as much time on stupid stuff as ours do.
And now President Obama has put his Attorney General dogs on the gendered bathroom issue in North Carolina.
Throw all the Bums out.
IshbelRobertson
5-10-16, 11:12am
But... Surely they would only be replaced by bigger bums?
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 1:52pm
I'm sorry that your elected officials waste as much time on stupid stuff as ours do.
And now President Obama has put his Attorney General dogs on the gendered bathroom issue in North Carolina.
Throw all the Bums out.
Apparently the fear of perverts was not enough, now we have to subdivide each one into gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgender and cross dressers.
Personally I would never be comfortable with my child peeing in the same room as a Member of the Senate or House of Representatives or worse.....Speaker of the House who used to be a wrestling coach and coincidentally a Serial Child Rapist!
While we are at it, lets ban all catholic priests........at least there is actual evidence that many are perverts.
Im sorry, I won't volunteer to sit at the interstate rest area and check for penises and vaginas and direct them accordingly. But maybe the Governor of North Carolina would volunteer......as long as he passes a background investigation.
"Hey little boy you want to see my wee wee?"
As it happens, someone very close to me is intersex. I'm wondering which bathroom they are supposed to use in The New Order?
Once North Carolina caves, will I get to shower with the girls down at the public pool?
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 3:08pm
As it happens, someone very close to me is intersex. I'm wondering which bathroom they are supposed to use in The New Order?
Well, I'm sure we could create a governmental agency that would issue inspection certificates on an annual basis. You would go into a government licensed physician (sort of like a flight surgeon), have your junk checked and certified by an expert who would be qualified to testify in court should a question arise. You could be fingerprinted and entered into the database as certified to use penis equipped bathroom A or vagina equipped bathroom B. All bathrooms could be equipped with fingerprint scanning technology funded by the annual licensing fees. Now, what that has to do with keeping perverts out of contact with minors? :doh:
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 3:14pm
Once North Carolina caves, will I get to shower with the girls down at the public pool?
Im thinking the crime of Indecent Exposure would probably cover that sufficiently. But hey, If you want to give it a try, let me know how it works out for you.
But isn't this all a result of being in a country where everyone is taught that they should be allowed ("free") to do what they want to do?.......free to be who they feel they are? Free to express themselves. Free to expect to get what they want?
It's all really getting out of hand.
You could be fingerprinted and entered into the database as certified to use penis equipped bathroom A or vagina equipped bathroom B.
See, that's too binary of a solution to cover the case of the intersex folks I know... They tend now to use the bathrooms that pose the least likelihood of them being assaulted by Neanderthals who may be confused by their ambiguous genitalia.
Im thinking the crime of Indecent Exposure would probably cover that sufficiently. But hey, If you want to give it a try, let me know how it works out for you.Sounds like entrapment to me. Aren't locker rooms and public showers included in the law the Justice Dept is challenging?
It's all really getting out of hand.
Cathy - if, for the sake of argument, I happen to have been born possessing genital features that are ambiguous, would I be "out of hand" to ask for the freedom to use public restrooms?
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 3:26pm
But isn't this all a result of being in a country where everyone is taught that they should be allowed ("free") to do what they want to do?.......free to be who they feel they are? Free to express themselves. Free to expect to get what they want?
It's all really getting out of hand.
Sure.....the times they are a changing.....used to be pornography could get you in trouble. Using the f bomb was disorderly conduct, drinking out of the wrong fountain, swimming in the wrong pool, riding on the wrong bus could get you arrested. In some places nude sun bathing is welcome. If you want freedom, I suggest San Francisco, if you value strict rules and regulations.....maybe Waco, Texas. But the whole book of order thing gets to be a little onerous at times don't you think? Did you know, every state crimes code and vehicle code has a condensed version for the police to carry with them. You know just the stuff that really needs to be enforced, minus the superfluous bullcrap.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 3:28pm
See, that's too binary of a solution to cover the case of the intersex folks I know... They tend now to use the bathrooms that pose the least likelihood of them being assaulted by Neanderthals who may be confused by their ambiguous genitalia.
If they insist, we could issue them a badge that they could wear. You know something like a handicap plate for special parking privileges that would allow them to park their junk in either stall legally.
I for one and encouraged that the law is being challenged, thank goodness. I have already seen enough of how people who are outside our box with gender being treated and put in danger. Don't confuse a male who has had surgery and hormones to change his body from how he was born with someone who is trying to peek or abuse the reasonable protections for everyone. We have had kids in this school who are using the gender appropriate bathroom yet their behavior is not appropriate and they are not allowed in that bathroom any more. The teacher calls the front office and a staff person escorts them to an empty bathroom.
So like most everything you have a right to take care of yourself until you show you can't be trusted. Pretty simple to me.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 3:30pm
Sounds like entrapment to me. Aren't locker rooms and public showers included in the law the Justice Dept is challenging?
Sure but by the time your appeal gets to the Supreme Court, you will have already served your time for the conviction and probably have suffered as a victim of rape yourself. So, why not just shower at home?
See, that's too binary of a solution to cover the case of the intersex folks I know... They tend now to use the bathrooms that pose the least likelihood of them being assaulted by Neanderthals who may be confused by their ambiguous genitalia.
Thank you Bae, that has been the experience of my friends. Maybe in the gender fluid counter culture of the 80's you could switch around but outside of that people just try to stay safe.
And for those who don't know, nothing ever happened to me sharing bathrooms with obviously gender fluid people all these years.
Sure but by the time your appeal gets to the Supreme Court, you will have already served your time for the conviction and probably have suffered as a victim of rape yourself. So, why not just shower at home?But why would I even be arrested? What if I'm feeling particularly feminine that day?
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 3:33pm
I for one and encouraged that the law is being challenged, thank goodness. I have already seen enough of how people who are outside our box with gender being treated and put in danger. Don't confuse a male who has had surgery and hormones to change his body from how he was born with someone who is trying to peek or abuse the reasonable protections for everyone. We have had kids in this school who are using the gender appropriate bathroom yet their behavior is not appropriate and they are not allowed in that bathroom any more. The teacher calls the front office and a staff person escorts them to an empty bathroom.
So like most everything you have a right to take care of yourself until you show you can't be trusted. Pretty simple to me.
Zoe.......:+1:
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 3:43pm
But why would I even be arrested? What if I'm feeling particularly feminine that day?
I would say that if you are that confused about your sexuality then you probably are going to need an involuntary commitment to a mental health facility to sort things out. Depending on your feelings that day, I would either screw you or jerk your chain.....or switch back and forth as your sexuality flowed. C'mon Alan You are better than this.
I would say that if you are that confused about your sexuality then you probably are going to need an involuntary commitment to a mental health facility to sort things out. Depending on your feelings that day, I would either screw you or jerk your chain.....or switch back and forth as your sexuality flowed. C'mon Alan You are better than this.Actually, those were serious questions which deserve better answers.
http://time.com/4322953/north-carolina-mississippi-bathroom-bills/?xid=tcoshare
Interesting points...
I have just finished designing a facility for our local airport, it will have bathrooms, showers, and a laundry facility for visiting/camping pilots. Each space is gender-neutral and designed to be safe for anyone to use.
There's also going to be a nice picnic/BBQ area adjacent, so people can hang out while waiting on their laundry.
We won't be checking anyone's genitals, just their tail numbers.
Note also that if you require people to use showers based on the gender printed on their birth certificate, you will be forcing your innocent young daughters to shower with Buck here....
http://wpmedia.montrealgazette.com/2015/03/gender-neutral-restroom-1000.jpeg?quality=55&strip=all
And your innocent young sons with my friend Bo. She was born Charlie, but when she was 4 she was given 'stomach' surgery because her genitals were non-conforming, her family moved, and her name was changed to Cheryl. Her birth certificate still says male..
http://i1048.photobucket.com/albums/s363/jpatter492/image_zpsijbgad4b.jpeg
Ultralight
5-10-16, 4:57pm
I don't want anyone in the restroom while I am dropping a deuce -- man, woman, trans or otherwise!
Ultralight
5-10-16, 5:00pm
While we are at it, lets ban all catholic priests.
I fully support this suggestion.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 7:37pm
Actually, those were serious questions which deserve better answers.
Okay Alan, as hard as it is for me to leave all sarcasm aside, I'll take a deep breath here and try. If you do the same, we will both know we are serious.
What is the North Carolina Law trying to forbid? Invasion of Privacy aka Protection from exposure to Perverts.
Why is it focused on transgender people? Because obviously they think transgender people are more perverted than the common ordinary citizen.
Why are they wrong? Because perversion transcends gender or sexual preference as well as socio economic status. I have arrested male perverts, female perverts, poor homeless perverts and a state representative who was a pervert.
So I'm in the bathroom the other day and a guy brings his little five year old or so daughter into the men's room with him. Maybe he's all alone and she's got to go, maybe he has to go and has no one to watch her. But there she is. Who is the state going to arrest? I mean the whole thing is some kind of answer to a problem that doesn't exist.
If something perverted is going on in a public bathroom, everybody in there knows it when they see it. They don't need a law to describe it for them or more rules and regulations to supersede common sense.
frugal-one
5-10-16, 8:21pm
Okay Alan, as hard as it is for me to leave all sarcasm aside, I'll take a deep breath here and try. If you do the same, we will both know we are serious.
What is the North Carolina Law trying to forbid? Invasion of Privacy aka Protection from exposure to Perverts.
Why is it focused on transgender people? Because obviously they think transgender people are more perverted than the common ordinary citizen.
Why are they wrong? Because perversion transcends gender or sexual preference as well as socio economic status. I have arrested male perverts, female perverts, poor homeless perverts and a state representative who was a pervert.
So I'm in the bathroom the other day and a guy brings his little five year old or so daughter into the men's room with him. Maybe he's all alone and she's got to go, maybe he has to go and has no one to watch her. But there she is. Who is the state going to arrest? I mean the whole thing is some kind of answer to a problem that doesn't exist.
If something perverted is going on in a public bathroom, everybody in there knows it when they see it. They don't need a law to describe it for them or more rules and regulations to supersede common sense.
I don't think a parent taking a child into "their" bathroom is the issue here.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 8:28pm
I don't think a parent taking a child into "their" bathroom is the issue here.
Please explain the issue here that requires a statewide law to include a verification of sex by birth certificate. As someone who has had to enforce some laws he didn't really agree with.....tell me why as a law enforcement officer, This law makes the state a better place.
iris lilies
5-10-16, 8:40pm
Okay Alan, as hard as it is for me to leave all sarcasm aside, I'll take a deep breath here and try. If you do the same, we will both know we are serious.
What is the North Carolina Law trying to forbid? Invasion of Privacy aka Protection from exposure to Perverts.
Why is it focused on transgender people? Because obviously they think transgender people are more perverted than the common ordinary citizen.
Why are they wrong? Because perversion transcends gender or sexual preference as well as socio economic status. I have arrested male perverts, female perverts, poor homeless perverts and a state representative who was a pervert.
So I'm in the bathroom the other day and a guy brings his little five year old or so daughter into the men's room with him. Maybe he's all alone and she's got to go, maybe he has to go and has no one to watch her. But there she is. Who is the state going to arrest? I mean the whole thing is some kind of answer to a problem that doesn't exist.
If something perverted is going on in a public bathroom, everybody in there knows it when they see it. They don't need a law to describe it for them or more rules and regulations to supersede common sense.
is that really "what they think"?"
I think its more about avoiding a free for all in everyone using whichever gender specific restroom they wish because a tiny percentage of people (mainly gender normative) will have narfarious motivations.
As a veteran of city public libraries where every new building I worked in was designed with a goal of having restrooms easily monitored by staff at the circ desk, I know that bad stuff hapens in restrooms. Google "public libraries children lured into restrooms" for many examples.
I have little sympathy for adults who may be offended about something they see, but there is legitimate, if inflated, concern for kids.
But not for a moment do I think states should pass laws addressing this,mnoe should the heqvy hand of the feds interfere. Let businesses and organizations work it out for themselves.
Okay Alan, as hard as it is for me to leave all sarcasm aside, I'll take a deep breath here and try. If you do the same, we will both know we are serious.
What is the North Carolina Law trying to forbid? Invasion of Privacy aka Protection from exposure to Perverts.
Why is it focused on transgender people? Because obviously they think transgender people are more perverted than the common ordinary citizen.
Why are they wrong? Because perversion transcends gender or sexual preference as well as socio economic status. I have arrested male perverts, female perverts, poor homeless perverts and a state representative who was a pervert.
So I'm in the bathroom the other day and a guy brings his little five year old or so daughter into the men's room with him. Maybe he's all alone and she's got to go, maybe he has to go and has no one to watch her. But there she is. Who is the state going to arrest? I mean the whole thing is some kind of answer to a problem that doesn't exist.
If something perverted is going on in a public bathroom, everybody in there knows it when they see it. They don't need a law to describe it for them or more rules and regulations to supersede common sense.
I'm actually fairly ambivalent on the issue of bathrooms. The only time I was ever offended (or perhaps annoyed is a better term) took place about 20 years ago in Europe. As you probably know many areas of Europe seem to prefer pay toilets in public spaces and sometimes you had to pay the attendant inside the bathroom prior to using the facilities. I think it was at Neuschwanstein Castle in Germany where I was first confronted with a female attendant after entering the restroom. I remember thinking, if she's going to charge me to pee in a hole in the floor while she sits in a chair 6 feet away reading a book I should at least get a saucy smile if not an appreciative wink while in such a vulnerable state, but no, it didn't happen.
I think the real problem has to do with the popular notion that gender is a social construct, apart from the actual sex of an individual. The law of unintended consequences leads me to believe that if gender restrictions are removed from public facilities such a restrooms, locker rooms and public showers, something other than hilarity will ensue. If I'm allowed to use any facility I want, based upon nothing more than my stated gender preference, what's to keep me from abusing that privilege in the local pool's locker room with your daughter?
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 9:02pm
Look, I don't care if you have a penis or a vagina or two penises or a vagina and a penis or a bag and a tube......if you go into a bathroom to urinate or defficate, it's okay by me. If something else happens, we already have laws that cover that.
I'm actually fairly ambivalent on the issue of bathrooms. The only time I was ever offended (of perhaps annoyed is a better term) took place about 20 years ago in Europe. As you probably know many areas of Europe seem to prefer pay toilets in public spaces and sometimes you had to pay the attendant inside the bathroom prior to using the facilities. I think it was at Neuschwanstein Castle in Germany where I was first confronted with a female attendant after entering the restroom. I remember thinking if she's going to charge me to pee in a hole in the floor while she sits in a chair 6 feet away reading a book, I should at least get a saucy smile if not an appreciative wink while in such a vulnerable state, but no, it didn't happen.
I think the real problem has to do with the popular notion that gender is a social construct, apart from the actual sex of an individual. The law of unintended consequences leads me to believe that if gender restrictions are removed from public facilities such a restrooms, locker rooms and public showers, something other than hilarity will ensue. If I'm allowed to use any facility I want, based upon nothing more than my stated gender preference, what's to keep me from abusing that privilege in the local pool's locker room with your daughter?
I think williamsmith's point (and please, williamsmith's, correct me if I'm wrong) is that there are already laws on the books to deal with inappropriate behavior in restrooms. Putting additional laws on the books to attempt to address this serve only to highlight the fact that anyone can walk into any restroom they choose and stigmatize a group of people (trains people) who weren't causing problems in a supposed attempt to solve the problem of a different group (pedophiles and other perverts) who actually may be causing harm. If there really was a major problem of men going into ladies' rooms and causing trouble better enforcement of existing laws would seem to be the solution. As has been pointed out upthread trans people generally want to just use the gender of restroom they most identify with with a hope of not creating drama or attracting unwanted attention to themselves. Now, because of these laws, we're probably likely to see the 'I was feeling trans that day' defense which wouldn't have happened before. Because they 'solve' a problem that didn't exist before (trans people acting like pervs in restrooms) these laws come across as a mean spirited attempt to make trans people subject to intense scrutiny, not to make anyone safer in restrooms.
Williamsmith
5-10-16, 9:19pm
I'm actually fairly ambivalent on the issue of bathrooms. The only time I was ever offended (or perhaps annoyed is a better term) took place about 20 years ago in Europe. As you probably know many areas of Europe seem to prefer pay toilets in public spaces and sometimes you had to pay the attendant inside the bathroom prior to using the facilities. I think it was at Neuschwanstein Castle in Germany where I was first confronted with a female attendant after entering the restroom. I remember thinking, if she's going to charge me to pee in a hole in the floor while she sits in a chair 6 feet away reading a book I should at least get a saucy smile if not an appreciative wink while in such a vulnerable state, but no, it didn't happen.
I think the real problem has to do with the popular notion that gender is a social construct, apart from the actual sex of an individual. The law of unintended consequences leads me to believe that if gender restrictions are removed from public facilities such a restrooms, locker rooms and public showers, something other than hilarity will ensue. If I'm allowed to use any facility I want, based upon nothing more than my stated gender preference, what's to keep me from abusing that privilege in the local pool's locker room with your daughter?
Alan, I understand. But the kind of incident you are worrying about rarely happens in public places. Predators use privacy to commit sexual acts. Voyeurism, indecent exposure and indecent assault could occur but the public restroom or bath facility is the least likely place because there are so many eyes involved and witnesses. There will be no appreciable protection afforded anyone with the addition of this law.
In public places where it's feasible, I like single unisex bathrooms, with changing tables and stout locks.
The brouhaha around transgendered people is a manufactured one--I think California is codifying standards for bathrooms as I type.
Alan, I guess I am sensing that you see the transgender thing as a more casual gender preference? I am sure someone can abuse it like they can abuse anything, but we all know perverted behavior when we see it. Having friends who are transgender for 30 years I can see that they support a safe bathroom environment, the last thing they want is to bring negative attention to themselves because they are the ones in danger. I am not sure exactly how to respond to you honestly, have you ever been in a locker room with a gay man? I have been with lesbian women and been hit on, and after saying a polite no it was all fine.
I have been uncomfortable when a woman brought an older male child into the bathroom, then I realized there is a door on my stall! I know that sometimes people do not want to leave a child unattended outside or some disabilities may not be visible and the child needs to be with an adult.
freshstart
5-11-16, 8:13am
If they insist, we could issue them a badge that they could wear. You know something like a handicap plate for special parking privileges that would allow them to park their junk in either stall legally.
even if this is your dry wit, it is not the least bit funny.
Alan, I guess I am sensing that you see the transgender thing as a more casual gender preference? I'm sensing that in our current environment, it doesn't matter whether I shave close, moisturize thoroughly and pronounce my name as if it had an extra a on the end everyday or just whenever the mood struck, anyone questioning my intentions would still be a bigot.
freshstart
5-11-16, 8:27am
Zoe: +1
these Draconian "laws" should be stopped before they become law, I'm all for the AG setting states straight, er, you know what I mean. Every parent should have to meet one of their children's transgendered friends before voting on such harsh laws. They'll meet a kid just like their own who should be able to pee in a safe place. I had to go to a referendum at the school on where these children should pee, disgusting words came out of disgusting, allegedly educated mouths and I come from a liberal, northern state. It ended up the way it should but the journey was eye opening as to peoples' fear and thus hatred, of the unknown.
Williamsmith
5-11-16, 9:13am
even if this is your dry wit, it is not the least bit funny.
I can see where you can get that opinion if you haven't read through all my posts on it. I was lampooning the absurdity of the law in the first place. A particularly "Liberal" or left leaning position apparently for me. I am complex no doubt but I try not to be a hypocrite. Can you see where a law like this can lead to ridiculous treatment of people who just want to go to the bathroom. Believe me I can and all while real perversion and child abuse is going on right in front of our faces.
The whole thing is absurd really.
I see "Family" restrooms all the time. Why can't there be an "Other" restroom, since there seems to be even more gender possibilities popping up. And it would be just for one person at a time..........
Bae........lots of people have things in life that just haven't worked out the way they'd hoped. Trying to keep everyone happy all the time seems sort of endlessly futile.
Sometimes, you just gotta deal with things, and not expect a law to get you what you want. But.....this is the country where everyone expects to get what they want.......
I see "Family" restrooms all the time. Why can't there be an "Other" restroom, since there seems to be even more gender possibilities popping up. And it would be just for one person at a time...
Why not just skip the labels and make a facility available to cover a variety of needs? I'd prefer privacy to a communal bathroom, personally.
Ultralight
5-11-16, 8:59pm
Can't people just find a fallen tree in the woods?
Oh, wait... could be pervs in the forest too!
Bae........lots of people have things in life that just haven't worked out the way they'd hoped. Trying to keep everyone happy all the time seems sort of endlessly futile.
Sometimes, you just gotta deal with things, and not expect a law to get you what you want. But.....this is the country where everyone
Cathy - I'll restate my question:
Should intersex people be denied the use of public restrooms?
It's not a matter of "things not working out the way they hoped"...
http://www.salisburypost.com/2016/05/10/board-amends-policies-to-allow-pepper-spray-shaving-razors-on-campuses/#sthash.EG23mDSd.dpuf
Not only is it an issue of trans people not being happy with how things work out, a school board in NC has decided that students should be allowed to carry pepper spray into restrooms since "depending on how the courts rule" they may need to threaten people just trying to use the restroom. Sounds like the modern day equivalent of school administrators looking the other way when bullies used to beat up kids for being gay. And, to channel gimmethesimplelife, when the inevitable happens I hope the student sues the crap out of this school district. That's the only way these jerks running this school district will learn that actions often have consequences.
I'm thinking as a result of this current virtue crusade that gays will get beat up too, or pepper-sprayed - too butch-looking and using the lady's room? Jihad! Too femme-looking and using the men's room? Smear the queer.
Ah, it's great to be back in the wholesome air of the 1950s. It's for the children....
Williamsmith
5-11-16, 9:52pm
jp1...... I can't believe that story. They actually endorsed the entire student body to be armed with pepper spray! If my kids attended that high school, the day after that policy went into affect they would be carrying one of those fire extinguisher size mace canisters with them. Those administrators and board members are absolutely mad! OMG!
What say you Alan......a little monsters are everywhere phobia a goin on here?
lots of people have things in life that just haven't worked out the way they'd hoped. Trying to keep everyone happy all the time seems sort of endlessly futile.
Very true. So we should move forward on making all restrooms available to all people and those who want to keep the "men" "women" restrooms can simply be unhappy -- trying to please them may be futile:-)
If this was put to vote, I do think I'd vote all restrooms for all people. It worked on Ally McBeal (or something like that:-)
Williamsmith
5-11-16, 10:59pm
I was staying at a Holiday Inn Express in Wilmington, NC, a beautiful place by the way with wonderful people. And no joke to follow......
Anyway, I was at the pool and a German couple came out with a young son about ten years old. He jumps in the pool and starts swimming around. Doesn't the mother take off her top and expose her breasts, quite proudly I might add.
So I'm a little stunned and I'm trying not to stare but it was a nice view. The wife was there beside me and she is not as impressed as me as far as I know. I'm thinking, this is North Carolina what going to happen now?
It took a few minutes for me to relax again. I finally said, okay well that's that lets get on with it. Now if she takes off her bikini I'll re evaluate.
freshstart
5-12-16, 12:59am
If this was put to vote, I do think I'd vote all restrooms for all people. It worked on Ally McBeal (or something like that:-)
it works on many college campuses with mixed BRs, although I would hate showering so close to the opposite sex, using a public restroom, however- no big deal
What say you Alan......a little monsters are everywhere phobia a goin on here?
Yeah. While I believe that every person is entitled to an adequate means of self defense, I'm pretty sure a bunch of teenagers will be 'defending' the hell out of whoever they've got a beef with on any given day, regardless of their sex, gender, race, favorite sports team or American Idol contestant.
But on the other hand, my company has a strict policy of no weapons on premises, although I tell employees that if they have a valid concealed carry permit, the policy is not designed to take away their right to an effective self defense from the moment they leave home until they return again, therefore what's in their vehicles is their business, not mine, and no one will be reprimanded for having a lawful weapon in their vehicles.
After reading the story referenced, I think that school board was thinking similarly.
Here is the thing, if you Alan walked into the women's restroom and did nothing threatening (peek over the stall) I would not do anything. I know times when someone has simply walked into the wrong one. I also know that as a child I was 'called out' several times for being in the wrong restroom by nervous older ladies for simply wearing pants. I went through a time I dressed very much like a boy. My mom was there once and told the lady I was in the right place, other times I had to speak up for myself. It was a little scary, it happened once even after I was a teen and developed, but I still chose to dress in a way some days that were more gender neutral. This is not new to people who have been called out in a bathroom, just new to a larger population.
Here is the thing, if you Alan walked into the women's restroom and did nothing threatening (peek over the stall) I would not do anything. I know times when someone has simply walked into the wrong one. I also know that as a child I was 'called out' several times for being in the wrong restroom by nervous older ladies for simply wearing pants. I went through a time I dressed very much like a boy. My mom was there once and told the lady I was in the right place, other times I had to speak up for myself. It was a little scary, it happened once even after I was a teen and developed, but I still chose to dress in a way some days that were more gender neutral. This is not new to people who have been called out in a bathroom, just new to a larger population.Agreed.
Would you feel the same about a public locker room or shower?
Agreed.
Would you feel the same about a public locker room or shower?
I admit I would feel more comfortable with people who looked like my gender, however there are some pretty masculine looking women in the locker rooms and showers at times.
I don't want to share a restroom with men. I've done it before (not relatives), and they are less cleanly in the bathroom than I've found women to be.
Also....how far do we take things? What about me......an older female who's used to certain privacies. Don't I have rights? Don't old white-haired ladies' lives matter?? :~)
I just don't know how far to take everything in this country today. Who's rights are more important? Which problems should be addressed and laws changed, and which ones shouldn't?
DD's college had coed living, but everyone had their own bathrooms. 2 rooms (same sex) would share a bathroom.......so it was 4 people of the same gender in one bathroom). I'm not sure I would even feel uncomfortable with that, in terms of the door opening into my bedroom, and guys could be out there looking in.
I wouldn't mind a transgender person using "my" bathroom (the women's).......if I could somehow be sure they were transgender.......which would probably mean a younger person who hadn't "crossed-over" visibly (no, I'm not talking about a genitalia check). But I don't want just anyone looking like a man coming into the women's restroom. There's too many funky/weird mentally people out there to give cart blanch to any man coming into the women's restroom. But some people are just weird enough to try to look like a transgender, just to enter a woman's restroom.
Yes, I feel bad for people who feel they were born the wrong sex. I'm not quite sure what to do about it.........restroomily-speaking. I just know I wouldn't feel comfortable with men walking into the restroom that I'm in. Maybe they should have a restroom that has the sign on it "Take your chances" restroom.
Just wanted to add that I think it would be easier for "regular" men to accept a transgender man in their restroom, than it would be for women to accept a transgender woman in theirs.
Wait......I'm getting confused on who's who..........
Yeah. While I believe that every person is entitled to an adequate means of self defense, I'm pretty sure a bunch of teenagers will be 'defending' the hell out of whoever they've got a beef with on any given day, regardless of their sex, gender, race, favorite sports team or American Idol contestant.
But on the other hand, my company has a strict policy of no weapons on premises, although I tell employees that if they have a valid concealed carry permit, the policy is not designed to take away their right to an effective self defense from the moment they leave home until they return again, therefore what's in their vehicles is their business, not mine, and no one will be reprimanded for having a lawful weapon in their vehicles.
After reading the story referenced, I think that school board was thinking similarly.
Except that the school board specifically took mace and pepper spray out of the definition of weapons specifically to allow students to bring it into the building instead of requiring that it be left in the parking lot, as had previously been the case.
...
I wouldn't mind a transgender person using "my" bathroom (the women's).......if I could somehow be sure they were transgender.......which would probably mean a younger person who hadn't "crossed-over" visibly (no, I'm not talking about a genitalia check). But I don't want just anyone looking like a man coming into the women's restroom. There's too many funky/weird mentally people out there to give cart blanch to any man coming into the women's restroom. But some people are just weird enough to try to look like a transgender, just to enter a woman's restroom.
Yes, I feel bad for people who feel they were born the wrong sex. I'm not quite sure what to do about it.........restroomily-speaking. I just know I wouldn't feel comfortable with men walking into the restroom that I'm in. Maybe they should have a restroom that has the sign on it "Take your chances" restroom.
So you would be intimidated if, say, Chaz Bono walked into the restroom you were using? Because that's exactly what laws like North Carolina's would mandate.
Except that the school board specifically took mace and pepper spray out of the definition of weapons specifically to allow students to bring it into the building instead of requiring that it be left in the parking lot, as had previously been the case.
Are we reading the same article? The one you linked doesn't indicate that pepper spray was ever allowed on campus, including the parking lot, and the board discussions centered around whether it should be allowed in the parking lot and how to deal with those students who may forget to take it out of their purse once reaching the campus.
We've had those very same discussions at my place of employment, regarding the very same item. Our site abuts a community park with approximately 7 miles of walking trails. As part of our Healthy Workplace Initiative, we encourage employees to use the trails during the workday, going so far as to provide our own path to meet up with the Community one. Several women have expressed concern about their safety while out on these paths and have requested the ability to carry pepper spray on their person during the workday and outside their vehicles. We of course agreed, but not without first discussing the pros and cons, as well as our liability on both sides of the issue. I think that's exactly what transpired in your article as well.
Are we reading the same article? The one you linked doesn't indicate that pepper spray was ever allowed on campus, including the parking lot, and the board discussions centered around whether it should be allowed in the parking lot and how to deal with those students who may forget to take it out of their purse once reaching the campus.
We've had those very same discussions at my place of employment, regarding the very same item. Our site abuts a community park with approximately 7 miles of walking trails. As part of our Healthy Workplace Initiative, we encourage employees to use the trails during the workday, going so far as to provide our own path to meet up with the Community one. Several women have expressed concern about their safety while out on these paths and have requested the ability to carry pepper spray on their person during the workday and outside their vehicles. We of course agreed, but not without first discussing the pros and cons, as well as our liability on both sides of the issue. I think that's exactly what transpired in your article as well.
The way they decided to deal with students who "forgot" to take it out of their bag and leave it in the parking lot was by removing it from the list of prohibited items altogether.
From the article:
However, board Chairman Josh Wagner pointed out that students aren’t likely to check their purses or bags to remove the spray every time they go to school – and then they would be found in violation of the policy.
...
Hughes pointed out that if the defensive sprays were taken completely out of the policy, then there would be no violation of policy if students forgot to remove canisters from their bags.
...
The board agreed to remove wording from its policy that referenced defensive sprays, and to add language prohibiting the sprays for students who are not in high school.
The way they decided to deal with students who "forgot" to take it out of their bag and leave it in the parking lot was by removing it from the list of prohibited items altogether.
From the article:
However, board Chairman Josh Wagner pointed out that students aren’t likely to check their purses or bags to remove the spray every time they go to school – and then they would be found in violation of the policy.
...
Hughes pointed out that if the defensive sprays were taken completely out of the policy, then there would be no violation of policy if students forgot to remove canisters from their bags.
...
The board agreed to remove wording from its policy that referenced defensive sprays, and to add language prohibiting the sprays for students who are not in high school.
Yes, and they also said this:
The policies in question are 5027 and 4333, which detail weapons and other threats to safety. Board member Travis Allen was in favor of allowing the canisters on school campuses, as long as they remained locked in student vehicles. However, board Chairman Josh Wagner pointed out that students aren’t likely to check their purses or bags to remove the spray every time they go to school – and then they would be found in violation of the policy.
So, that would lead me to believe (as previously mentioned) that the school board's intention was to allow self-defensive sprays on a portion of the school campus (the parking lot), which then led to discussion of how to deal with those students who forgot to take them out of their bags or purses when entering school buildings or attending school events such as football games.
I think they made the right choice.
But by deciding to not include them in the weapons ban they effectively made it ok to bring them into the building.
Williamsmith
5-12-16, 2:14pm
Alan, to me it is clear what the intent of removing pepper spray from the list of prohibited weapons is. And how can you interpret it any other way in light of this comment by board member Charles Hughes.....
“Depending on how the courts rule on the bathroom issues, it may be a pretty valuable tool to have on the female students if they go to the bathroom, not knowing who may come in,” board member Chuck Hughes said in referencing concerns about HB2 (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article68401147.html), according to the Salisbury Post (http://www.salisburypost.com/2016/05/10/board-amends-policies-to-allow-pepper-spray-shaving-razors-on-campuses/).
Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article76920717.html#storylink=cpy
Williamsmith
5-12-16, 2:27pm
I'll add.....
After what he said sunk in, board member Chuck Hughes walked back his statement. Basically he said he misspoke and didn't mean to say what he said. By the way, is there some kind of epidemic of perverts and pedophiles running around the campuses of Rowan-Salisbury Schools? Hughes also promised to vote to put pepper spray back into the prohibited items list.........after he came to his bloody good senses.
I wonder how much transgender porn is being deleted from home computers in a North Carolina as we speak? I'm sorry, I had to throw that in.
"
Hughes walked back his statement on Wednesday, telling (https://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnashrulla/north-carolina-board-rethinks-allowing-pepper-spray-in-high?utm_term=.hgY431JG2#.hmrg8r7Qm)Buzzfeed News that his comments were "inappropriate" and that he had been referring not to transgender students, but to "perverts and pedophiles taking advantage of this law in bathrooms."
Alan, to me it is clear what the intent of removing pepper spray from the list of prohibited weapons is. And how can you interpret it any other way in light of this comment by board member Charles Hughes.....
“Depending on how the courts rule on the bathroom issues, it may be a pretty valuable tool to have on the female students if they go to the bathroom, not knowing who may come in,” board member Chuck Hughes said in referencing concerns about HB2 (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article68401147.html), according to the Salisbury Post (http://www.salisburypost.com/2016/05/10/board-amends-policies-to-allow-pepper-spray-shaving-razors-on-campuses/).
Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article76920717.html#storylink=cpy
Hmm, it sure seems to me that Mr Hughes' intent may have been colored by current events, although I'm not a guilt by association kinda guy so I'll take the stance that the rest of the school board was dealing with the same type of questions and concerns I deal with in my work life, some of which I've described above. Your mileage may vary. ;)
But by deciding to not include them in the weapons ban they effectively made it ok to bring them into the building.Yes, they did, thereby allowing the students the same rights they enjoy off school grounds.
Again, I think that is a wise move as under most school's zero tolerance policies, students could be adversely affected for engaging in lawful practices.
IshbelRobertson
5-12-16, 5:05pm
Errrm,whilst I don't think thread drift is a bad thng... About Mr Khan finding MR Trump's offer a wee bit aff?,
Errrm,whilst I don't think thread drift is a bad thng... About Mr Khan finding MR Trump's offer a wee bit aff?,
LOL, Sorry Ishbel, I don't think I started it but I certainly encouraged it. :D
Speaking of thread drift, I've been meaning to tell you how much I appreciate your lapses into the written Scottish dialect. It often comes across not in the proper way we Yanks might see on Outlander, but in the much more colorful way of Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men, the Nac Mac Feegle. I love it!
Williamsmith
5-12-16, 6:24pm
Ishbel, You are not alone. The thread on Trumps white angry middleclass is now about moving to the Phillipines. !Splat!
Ishbel, You are not alone. The thread on Trumps white angry middleclass is now about moving to the Phillipines. !Splat!
I unwittingly did my part to try and make the Philippine portion of that thread relevant by pointing out their supposedly Trumpesque new president...
iris lilies
5-12-16, 11:16pm
I unwittingly did my part to try and make the Philippine portion of that thread relevant by pointing out their supposedly Trumpesque new president...
Yea, I caught that tie in. Seemed relevant to me.
I unwittingly did my part to try and make the Philippine portion of that thread relevant by pointing out their supposedly Trumpesque new president...
Yea, I caught that tie in. Seemed relevant to me.
Obviously you are more alert than me. I only pointed out the new Filipino president because of Rob's stated intentions about moving there, not because I'd made the connection to Trump and this thread.
IshbelRobertson
5-13-16, 5:00am
LOL, Sorry Ishbel, I don't think I started it but I certainly encouraged it. :D
Speaking of thread drift, I've been meaning to tell you how much I appreciate your lapses into the written Scottish dialect. It often comes across not in the proper way we Yanks might see on Outlander, but in the much more colorful way of Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men, the Nac Mac Feegle. I love it!
Why, thank you!
Sometimes Inglis wulnae dae! Lallans is much more expressive.
I haven't seen any of Outlander as I thought the first book in Ms Gabaldon's series was badly written, unmitigated tosh and I couldn't finish it! Still, it has given an income to some Scots actors, and that's certainly a good thing :~)
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