View Full Version : The Generation Gap At Work, Or...
how to avoid coming off as a crotchety, bitter,mean-spirited menopausal woman.
Wow, here is a story about where I work (and I promise you it has nothing to do with my schedule, really)! I was recently on the panel of team members looking to hire two new supervisors for the front-of-house deli counter and pizza station. It was several years ago that I realized exactly what the position entailed (and for not that much more money than a regular team member) and I decided I would never go for the position myself (I wanted to have some semblance of life outside of Wholefoods). So fast forward through several different supervisors over the last few years (it is a really tough job and you have to have really thick skin, so many can't tough it out for long). The last supervisor we hired was a woman around 50 years old, old-school work ethic (kind of like me) but her management style and delivery was pretty bad so every one that worked with her ended up hating her. She really was pretty terrible at her job and the youngsters (the 20-somethings) couldn't stand her. Even I couldn't stand her as my supervisor and I am a little bit older than she was!
So, the other week we held interviews for two open positions: all but one of the candidates were right from the Prep Foods team, and one was an outside candidate.
Candidate #1: my co-worker (who is about 50 years old) and has been working part-time at WF for a few years and wanted full-time. She had some management experience previously and interviewed quite well, but during the discussions afterward I had to be honest and say to the group that as much as I like her as a person (most of the time), I knew having her a supervisor would actually bring the same problems to the team as the one older woman who just departed. They actually all agreed with my assessment. Why did I say that? It was that undercurrent of bitterness, cynicism, judgement and negativity about life that can creep into a person's psyche during middle-age.
Candidate #2: a 38 year old woman who works in the kitchen. Great cooking skills, but absolutely no leadership skills at all. She interviewed very, very badly, came in wholly unprepared and she will never be leadership material on our team, yet she does have a very valuable skill set.
Candidate #3: another team member, but much younger, around 28 years old I think. A happy, loving, bubbly interesting young woman who WILL make a great supervisor some day in the near future but not quite ready yet.
Candidate #4: our newest team member, a delightful, lovely, almost over-the-top friendly young woman (even younger than my daughter, who is 23). When I first met her, I was pretty taken aback because she laid it all on so thick, but as the months go on, she really is that super-sweet, friendly, great smile, great customer service attitude, nothing phases her type of person. Not so much experience at our store, but has experience in management at a previous job. Seems humble, eager and willing to be taught.
Candidate #5: the only outside person to apply, great experience in food service, a no-nonsense attitude, looked like he would get the job done with the least amount of training and gain the respect of the other team members.
So who did we decide to vote for? It was a very interesting and revealing discussion panel and I was totally honest about what I thought. I declined to vote for Candidate #1 (even though we are work "friends"). She may have felt like she deserved the job, and she had some excellent insights about the problems our team has (yet she can be one of the ones who tends to cause problems with her negativity and nit-picking). I really feel like now I understand what it means to promote someone within an organization - we/they are looking for people that can and want move up the management ladder, and that requires so much more than just getting the specifics of the job tasks done. I now believe it is the core personality type that determines who moves ahead. A leader has to be able to inspire and get others inspired to do their best. The job tasks can be taught, but if you don't have the type of personality that can bring people together for the common good of the team (and corporation), you will not be successful.
So we voted for Candidate #4 (the super-sacharine positive sweetheart) and Candidate #5 (the outside guy-except he apparently turned down the offer).
I knew my friend was going to be pissed, and she was. Luckily, the panel members are not allowed to speak about our hiring discussions, unless a person who interviewed wanted specific feedback on their interview. I did tell her she did a great interview (which she did, as she was very well-prepared and presented herself well, but if you read between the lines of what she was saying...). And I left it at that.
Yesterday, I had the pleasure of training our new supervisor on how to open the deli case in the morning, along with this same co-worker (I'll call her "J") who lost out on the job. "J" had little or nothing to say to the new girl all morning while we worked. I, on the other hand, really enjoyed training "B" because I like teaching, and I like teaching people how to do everything the correct way, and giving all the little side tips about things (I used to teach figure skating so I know how to be very exacting about procedures).
So here is the kicker - at one point when "B" was out of earshot, I heard "J" say something like "Puhlease, someone stick a fork down her throat" (in reference to "B", regarding her over-the-top sweetness) and spoken to another co-worker walking by. And I am over here thinking how sad that is, that someone who is genuinely nice and sweet and not cynical yet has a derogatory comment made about her like that. It doesn't speak well about us older folk in general, who just seems to like to complain about "those young people." And I am sure I have been guilty of that too at times, but I don't want to be that way. I actually enjoy being around the younger people (most of the time), and yes, their views can be exasperating sometimes but I really like to see what they are thinking and how they are navigating this crazy world we are leaving them. That may be why most of them consider me as some sort of cool "aunt" or "big sister" even though I am their parents age. None of them believe I am almost 55; they all think I am in my early '40's apparently. I like shocking them with the truth.
And the other thing I noticed while walking in my neighborhood the other day and running into my old high school friend walking her dog is that NOTHING ages you faster than wearing a sweatshirt with a corny "motif" on it! You will NEVER EVER catch me wearing a "grandma" sweatshirt!
First, you have written a very clear and understandable description of the situation. Well done!
When individuals hope that they get a job, it will take some time for the disappointment to disappear. Be supportive of the new supervisor as much as possible describing the actions she is taking to make things flow well. Detach from age, emotion and appearance in any observations and focus on the valuable skills so that everyone can understand that you are being as objective in your views as possible. You will gain respect and support from coworkers over time and help the new supervisor as well. If you taught figure skating, you have all the skills you need. My two daughters took figure skating for a number of years and I always admired how well they helped motivate.
The less snark about people you work with the better, is my motto.
catherine
5-13-16, 11:17am
Interesting case study! I agree with razz--I think your co-worker who lost the job is still tasting sour grapes. Maybe she'll be kinder when the new supervisor effectively pulls the team together as it sounds like she might. If "J" continues to be negative, that's unfortunate.
So in terms of your topic: "how to avoid coming off as a crotchety, bitter, mean-spirited menopausal woman" (LOL), I agree with you on both of your points.
I'm reading "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" for the first time. I know it's a classic and somehow it has escaped me, but I stumbled upon an audio version of it for free online and it's great. And I think the trick to not letting life beat you down is to approach life as a child every day.. with a "beginner's mind" toward everything you do. I think it takes practice, especially for we 60-somethings who feel we've been-there-done-that-and-have-the-shirt in so many areas--but you can't start taking life for granted, or believe you have the answers, because you don't. The answers that were true just yesterday may not apply today. The disappointments from yesterday are irrelevant. And nobody wants to hear about them!
iris lilies
5-13-16, 11:52am
Interesting case study! I agree with razz--I think your co-worker who lost the job is still tasting sour grapes. Maybe she'll be kinder when the new supervisor effectively pulls the team together as it sounds like she might. If "J" continues to be negative, that's unfortunate.
So in terms of your topic: "how to avoid coming off as a crotchety, bitter, mean-spirited menopausal woman" (LOL), I agree with you on both of your points.
I'm reading "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" for the first time. I know it's a classic and somehow it has escaped me, but I stumbled upon an audio version of it for free online and it's great. And I think the trick to not letting life beat you down is to approach life as a child every day.. with a "beginner's mind" toward everything you do. I think it takes practice, especially for we 60-somethings who feel we've been-there-done-that-and-have-the-shirt in so many areas--but you can't start taking life for granted, or believe you have the answers, because you don't. The answers that were true just yesterday may not apply today. The disappointments from yesterday are irrelevant. And nobody wants to hear about them!
This is one of the main reasons I got out of work. I became tired of seeing what I perceived to be the same thing, the same errors, over the years.
New and younger employees get to make mistakes. Mistakes are how we all learn. It's just that I was very bored seeing the same mistakes.
I remember in the last year of my employment one of my employees brought to me a problem. I was happy and excited because I hadn't seen that before! Now, here was something new, I Had not anticipated this! Usually it was the same old thing the same old problems the same old errors.
It was time to get out, so I did.
It was time to get out, so I did.
I had a really horrible experience yesterday at a big staff retreat. One of my colleagues was so negative that I regretted sitting near her and wanted to tell the supervisors that I was not that negative myself. It looked pretty bad. It is pretty obvious that she is bitter and burned out. We did a team builder, they are cheesy but part of what we do. She actually dropped out of the teamwork on an activity we needed everyone. I have shared about her before but I would recommend my job coach and a plan to move on since she is not into this in a big way anymore.
I think that sharing here helps me get myself more focused and ready to be positive at work. I get it out of my system and think it through, and then make the decision about how to act or if I need to make a change. So far I am still excited about most of my job but I get tired. I will say that my frustrations often fuel me to look at things in a different way or spur me into action. So in that sense I don't want to let go of them as long as they are serving their purpose (and not getting me stuck in bitterness).
Also it is refreshing that this is not just a bash the millennials thread! Yes they text too much and expect certain things more than we did and live with their parents longer,but they are also making more conscious choices and working on some big issues so it balances out.
It was couched as more of a "bash the menopausal" thread, I thought.
I have certainly felt that burned out, cynical feeling quite recently at work, as I barely made it through the winter. The chronic fatigue and body pain was doing me in and I cringe inwardly at myself for my poor attitude and negativity that I was dealing with January through March. Now that I feel better (and my annual big vacation is coming up) my outlook and attitude has really changed for the better, thanks to all the self-care I've done lately (regular massages, seeing an osteopath, taking big dose of Vitamin D3, better diet, caffeine-free for about two months,(except I recently fell off the wagon with that).
I am not that depressed person so much anymore (thank god!) and looking back I realize how unbecoming it is at work to always be complaining about one thing or another, regardless of your age. I work in a place where negativity abounds and sucks the life's blood out of everyone. I live in a state that seems to have the same general outlook - many people in Michigan are just miserable SOB's. I don't want to live that way myself, but it is really hard to be surrounded by it all the time and not be affected by it. Most of the time I am in my own little introverted cave, but occasionally, like today, I can poke my head out and appreciate things just the way they are right now without judgment. It would be nice to have a work team that is heading towards positivity and teamwork rather than the same old crap of gossip and negativity. We all thought taking a chance on the new young, slightly inexperienced supervisor might help lead us in a better direction, and if you look at the overall big picture, she is exactly the type of future leader that this corporation wants to groom. And I do not see that at all when I look at the older woman who we didn't choose. Her glass has been more than half empty for a long, long time. I want to be part of the solution going forward, even though I did not and will not ever decide to move ahead in the company. I can play a very good role just doing what I am doing now.
And wow, doesn't it sound like I am going to stay with the company when I say stuff like that? Right now I am in a good mood, I have the day off, and my vacation is in THREE WEEKS! And my three weeks vacation will be entirely paid for with my accumulated PTO! And I have lots of money in my savings account which means I can do whatever I want to do for three weeks (within reason) and still have plenty of money leftover. All of this is thanks to the concepts of Simple Living I have been following for the last 23 years. Many single woman of my age group have not built up what I have and live in a lot of fear of the future. I totally understand, and I think my work friend "J" is one of them. A lot fear of the future, and ruminating on the mistakes from the past...getting stuck in old patterns of thinking. I understand totally...I like to think everyone one I meet and spend time with can teach me something, and "J" has taught me what I never want to be like - a somewhat bitter, negative, judgmental menopausal woman.
I retired three months ago but had the distinctive pleasure (not) of rounding up candidates for my position. It may not be fair but often I relied on intuition. Multiple group interviews but eventually the right choice was made. We chose a 40 yr old black female with a very calm and professional demeanor after inviewing all sorts of people who qualified. For us, the most important thing was how a new personality would meld with the rest of the group. Once you've experienced cynical or overly neurotic employees, you don't want to go back there again. There are some parts of the country where saccharin sweet is quite normal and not affected. Native Dallasites come to mind. These days, it is kind of a lost attribute.
Funny, I'm the new "kid" in our office (I'm 61) and there's a clique of young-uns (Millennials) who look straight through me as if I am invisible and don't speak at all except to each other. The two Millennials closer to me in my workgroup are my buds. We really enjoy each others' company at work. The clique just doesn't realize what a fun chick they're missing out on!
All of this is thanks to the concepts of Simple Living I have been following for the last 23 years. Many single woman of my age group have not built up what I have and live in a lot of fear of the future. I totally understand, and I think my work friend "J" is one of them. A lot fear of the future, and ruminating on the mistakes from the past...getting stuck in old patterns of thinking.
No one likes to think they are "stuck" where they are. Yet so many people are, either by their possessions, (perceived) obligations, self-talk,... SQ, you are lucky because living simply has given you options. J doesn't sound like she's ready or able to consider approaching life differently so she can have some options not too long from now. Or perhaps there's stuff going on in her life that make it extra soul-sucking right now. Hard to tell from here. But I suspect her situation is quite wide-spread and a fuel for discontent in this country that might be far stronger if the people suffering from it weren't so burnt out.
I think Steve is spot on. We don't know what other people's lives are. It's unfortunate that some people get stuck in a bad place. No, they shouldn't get the promotion in that case, until they can figure out how to get out of their stuck position. And also sometimes people are just having a bad day. I won't soon forget a day at work years ago. My mother was dying and I'd gone to visit her for what I expected (and turned out to be) the last time I'd see her alive. I took the redeye back from Denver to NY and went straight to work. I'd packed work clothes to change into, but when I got to the office at around 7:30, straight from the airport, I just didn't have the energy to change into them so I spent the day doing my work in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. My boss, who knew the situation, asked if I was ok and told me to go home if I needed to. A routinely annoying coworker, on the other hand, came to my cube to discuss something at around lunchtime and made a snarky comment about "not realizing that there'd been a change in the dress code". It was all I could do to not smack him. Thankfully my life is not usually that difficult. Others aren't so lucky.
It is hard, on both sides. It is hard to move beyond the hundreds of teaching jobs I applied for, literally hundreds (I kept a spreadsheet so I could defend myself in my divorce when I was accused of deliberately underearning). had a lot of hope for a long time, and yet it left some scars. So some of these people who are not right for a job may have some of that as well. I was also dealing with kids with mental health issues for years and I am sure that affected my work at times.
I was looking back and cringing over how the one teaching job I got went. I heard from more than one outside source that the principal was a bully and was eventually forced to retire. Didn't give me my job or my career back. I went back to Target, pushed carts and lost my house. I was defeated, and I can't tell you how low I felt to come from an abusive marriage, work on myself to get some confidence and skills and then go through that. I don;t talk about it much, people mean well when they tell me I can just get a teaching job or finish writing my book or anything. But I am more protective these days, I took the lumps and now am much more practical around work. I am asking a really strong woman to be my mentor and hopefully she can do that. I also was part of a communication task force that saved my sanity and possibly my career. We had a huge reaction from the supervisor level on our work, however my colleagues and site staff are super relieved we are doing this work. I heard that the task force was picky and I was chosen to be on it so that helps quite a bit. I may never have the supervisor personality in my department after last year but I will keep doing this work and earning enough to live on and call that good in a really crappy world. So I totally related to what you said Steve, some people are just so hurt and burned out and not able to do much more.
Are there positive things that happened? I pushed more in my Buddhist practice, I have a strong one now. I still know that I have ambition and maybe I will always be an odd enough personality to not quite be seen as a leader. Okay, gonna go work this out.
ApatheticNoMore
5-14-16, 1:34am
She may have been trying to do whatever you are supposed to do to get ahead in the world for years (such as it is, WF may not be the path to great riches), working hard, trying to go full time repeatedly, trying to move into management (here she was I guess), maybe other things but who knows, to no real avail. So the bitterness she might have that the 21 year old already on the fast track doesn't, yea well baggage. By the way do you know ANY men with saccharine personalities? I don't. They are allowed not to be that way. It's enough to make one vote for Hillary Clinton ...
So she should accept her situation? It is very difficult to both accept one's situation and try to change it, very hard not to take one side of that (either trying to change it or accepting it). And sometimes only the dead, whose stories are entirely written, have the wisdom to know the difference.
She may have been trying to do whatever you are supposed to do to get ahead in the world for years (such as it is, WF may not be the path to great riches), working hard, trying to go full time repeatedly, trying to move into management (here she was I guess), maybe other things but who knows, to no real avail. So the bitterness she might have that the 21 year old already on the fast track doesn't, yea well baggage. By the way do you know ANY men with saccharine personalities? I don't. They are allowed not to be that way. It's enough to make one vote for Hillary Clinton ...
So she should accept her situation? It is very difficult to both accept one's situation and try to change it, very hard not to take one side of that (either trying to change it or accepting it). And sometimes only the dead, whose stories are entirely written, have the wisdom to know the difference.
I was wondering how many middle-aged males are talked of dismissively, or expected to be chirpy and positive all the time. Not many, I imagine. Middle age is considered peak earning years for many of them--IT startups aside.
I was wondering how many middle-aged males are talked of dismissively, or expected to be chirpy and positive all the time. Not many, I imagine. Middle age is considered peak earning years for many of them--IT startups aside.
I think some of the anger that is coming out this political season is not as many men are getting those prime earning years. A LOT of them lost jobs in the recession and they are having a hard time adjusting. I can totally understand, I struggle with not having opportunities despite pushing myself and getting education and everything. I feel pretty good about what I make now I just live in an expensive area.
I do see that even in my female dominated profession there are some unconscious biases. I wouldn't say that my supervisors necessarily understand that they may be acting in this way because I respect them in so many other ways around equity issues. But the guy they promoted instead of me had in one meeting used the f word and in another pretty much refused to do something he felt was too complicated, not in a nice way. Another openly challenged our accountant in a meeting and was supported by 2 supervisors. The primary reason I got a very low review last year was the battle I waged on behalf of a homeless family, I lost my temper in the end and that was not cool. However I have frequently thought that there was a gender bias in how it was received. Later I heard that one male staff was 'really smart', and I had been supporting my stance based on my knowledge of the law and the grant requirements which I know well. Like I was supposed to be more gentle and feminine about it. And when I stopped an argument between parents that was going to get physical I was told that I should have just called safety and security instead of given credit for my skills in mediating the situation. I can't be totally sure, not enough to bring it up again, but still it rolls around in my head.
I know you made a good decision in hiring but I would also reach out with some compassion if you can to the person who didn't get the job. Many of us in the middle, especially Gen X, have a lot of ways we have tried to build a career and are in this crunch. I see older people who got jobs with little education or experience and we saw that growing up. So we naturally have an expectation of what we can do or jobs we can get based on that and it is not true anymore. A hard shift. Maybe she has another part of her life that can be developed to meet that need.
Teacher Terry
5-14-16, 3:45pm
I really feel for you Zoe Girl because sometimes whatever you have your degree in the market is just flooded with people and if you can't move you suffer. This happened to me after I got my first master's degree. No jobs where I was living and my hubby had a decent job. Luckily we had the $ to send me back for another master's degree so I could work in a decent job. I think a lot of baby boomers and later are disappointed with how their careers turned out due to things beyond their control.
Looks like I touched a nerve here. Looking back at what I initially wrote, I have to chuckle a little bit because for once I was having a day (well, almost a week really) where I personally felt that my cup was runneth over with good will and anyone with the slightest negative attitude was ticking me off, hence my diatribe regarding "J". It's a tough place to be in, the aging baby boomer. We want to retire someday, but know that is impossible, due to in large part forces out of our direct control. I know for myself if I had to g out and find another job it would be very, very tough, despite having two advanced degrees (but in unemployable fields). Age discrimination is a real thing, and I kind of saw it rear its ugly head during those interviews, even though it wasn't said so out loud, of course. One of the reason the rest of the panel didn't want to hire "J" in the supervisor position was that the rest of the Team Leaders (all in their late 20's and 30's) felt that they wouldn't be able to work with her, in large part due to her some of her negativity and perceived inflexibility. And to be honest, I had to agree because we had just finished with that same scenario with the previous supervisor. It caused so much strife within the team everyone was miserable and no one (including me) wanted a repeat of the potential same situation.
I have more to say on this entire interesting topic but it is off to a rare concert I go tonight!
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