Times have changed...

[Ultralight]

In IRL I spend a large amount of time around folks in the 60 to 75 age range.

I am not sure why, but I do.

I was at a potluck/dinner party last night with a group of about a dozen of these folks, mostly couples.

They were talking about education and careers. When they were young it was like the world was their oyster -- educational opportunities abounded, they could pick and choose from a variety of jobs that wanted to hire them (without experience! OJT was the norm!), property of all sorts was affordable. They received modest inheritances and were able to stash away some inheritance for their own kids when the time comes.

One of the women has been living for years on her handsome divorce settlement because her husband had a great job (I actually know several women who make a respectable salary simply by being an ex-wife -- good work if you can get it!).

These folks talked a lot about millennials. They spoke of both the flaws they saw in this demographic and the admirable qualities.

But they also seemed to lament the sad circumstance that most seem to be in. The opportunities for affordable education and careers are just not there like they used to be.

When I looked around at these "Boomers" I just thought: "They were endowed with so much and they used so much and they got used to so much. Most of them are insulated enough that they will die with so much. But they are not so cloistered away that they cannot see how so much is unavailable to the younger generations -- the millennials obviously, and much of Generation X too."

But at the same time, they see me (a young 36 in comparison to them) and are a little perplexed. They are amused and intrigued by my voluntary simplicity, my monastic life of few possessions.

[sweetana3]

My husband says we grew up in the Golden Ages. I got a federal job with only 2 years of college. Admittedly they would hire any warm body since the only ones looking in Alaska at that time were wives of military men. Husband used the GI Bill for college and got his initial entry into computers and programming while in the military when he took a voluntary class. (He finished his degree 11 years later.) Stayed with and grew with a Fortune 500 company when it was still grow your own managers and employees.

I don't see a similar life for many unless they can make the sacrifices early, have no significant life disasters, and have or develop skills that are in demand. But I still see young people setting goals and working towards them.

I think one of the biggest choices is to not get caught up in the popular or trendy but to work to your own goals.

[LDAHL]

I wouldn’t be so fast to idealize the past at the present’s expense. There are probably points in both generations’ favor on “the who had it better” scale.

I finished college in 1980. Unemployment was in the 7-8% range and inflation was in the 10-12% range. I attended a Big Ten Mega-School before universities were expected to be combination amusement parks/shopping malls. I paid for my undergraduate and graduate educations by taking on a seven year military service obligation. After the military, I plodded slowly but surely up an unglamorous career ladder, and am now reaching the point where my family is secure if not wealthy. It’s a good place to be, but it came at a cost of hard work and delayed gratification.

I would agree that the cost of higher education is higher now due to a lot of consumerist bells and whistles, expanding regulatory flapdoodle, etc. I don’t know that opportunities are more limited than they used to be, at least for the more skilled jobs. There seems to be a greater feeling of entitlement now than in my twenties (although that may be because I was working in a military culture with little tolerance for special snowflakes).

At least for the path I followed, I’m not seeing evidence that it would be materially worse or better starting today. I like to think that what I have I built brick by brick over decades. There are plenty of folks retiring with little more than Social Security now, so I wouldn't call them privileged.

[nswef]

I do think it was easier when I started out after college 1970 - state school- scholarship for 2 years until my parents moved from the state so we had to pay out of state tuition..NDEA loans that had 10% forgiven for each year in a title one school- So my loans were less than $5000 and my starting salary was $6800. I started in a $75 a month apartment...at the end of the month I'd have about $30. I did put $50 into savings each month as soon as I deposited my check. I had rented furniture. Expectations were different for living. No one expected to move into a fully furnished house similar to what the parents had made after 20 years...we all expected a little house with borrowed or second hand furniture. I don't know if that is good or bad, just different from what it is now. Our first house had a $20,000 loan and a $3000 second mortgage the realtor gave us. They only counted half my salary because I was a woman. So our loan was based on $10,000 income. We paid the second mortgage in 3 years and kept the other for about 20. We saved our raises. Retired after 31 years of teaching to a wonderful defined benefit pension. We chose not to have children, had good health benefits from our job. We aren't spenders but not terribly austere. We did not upgrade our little starter house to something huge. We won't need to downsize much. I feel as if we had wonderful benefits and worked hard as well. I don't know if the kids starting out today have any idea how to delay gratification, but we'll see how it works out. There are many people who started the same way we did and are in debt up to their eyeballs....still paying a mortgage and car payments and credit cards.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I do think boomers had it easier, although there were some hard times so it wasn't all rosy. But I really don't think most of them understand what it's like out there now. My dad was WWII gen (I'm an Xer) and he retrained for a career in his 40s or so (long before having kids) - and he had a degree etc. - do I don't think even needing to make drastic changes like that way too late in life is new - though maybe it succeeded better then - and well my dad took 5 years off work to travel the world before then so maybe he deserved not to be re-hired in his prior career.

As for young people expecting everything right away, nah I don't see it. Noone buys a house until they are at least in their 30s around here (if they ever do), so the idea of young people and their expectations is nothing I've ever seen ever. I'd save my raises ... wait raises, what are those again?

[Ultralight]

All I can say:

"Make America great again!"

[catherine]

As with everything, some aspects of life of the Boomers were better and some were worse. Women had to work a lot harder to get to the same place men did. I had a magna cum laude degree, but needed to learn to type to get my foot in the door. I was a secretary making $6,000/year, but under that umbrella I (and one of my other secretary colleagues) organized the entire TV network production offices for the Republican and Democratic National Conventions in 1976.

It was hard to buy a house back in the 70s/80s as it is now. And at least home mortgage interest rates aren't 13% like they were when I bought my first house.



But I really don't think most of them understand what it's like out there now.

ANM, can you be more specific? What makes life challenging for you guys?

[razz]

There does seem to be a different mindset about debt.

We only ever had one car loan so did without until we could pay cash. Mortgages were based on one salary, always DH's, so we limited what we bought to that parameter, had one credit card, MasterC, in my name only for my business that was paid off every month and still is. I do now have another CC, Visa, purchasing less than $100 each month to keep it active.

Now I see huge mortgages which include decks, inground pools and landscaping for new homes. Not sure how anyone pays for these. The average reported statistic for family debt ratio in budgets is $1.67 for every $1 of family take-home income.

None of it makes sense to me.

[ApatheticNoMore]

ANM, can you be more specific? What makes life challenging for you guys?

rising expenses with no end in sight (I can still pay the rent, but it is crazy out there with rising rents), cr@ppy job market, all risks put on the individual (employers covering less and less ).

[Ultralight]

Women had to work a lot harder to get to the same place men did.

It seems like this has been totally overcome now.

[Ultralight]

rising expenses with no end in sight (I can still pay the rent, but it is crazy out there with rising rents), cr@ppy job market, all risks put on the individual (employers covering less and less ).

Pensions left the building ages ago.

And yeah, rent is crazy!

Boomers will probably always think Generation Xers (like me) are slackers and Millennials are whiners. haha

[Williamsmith]

I must be living in a different world than some of you when I graduated college, 1981-82...my student loans were negligible and paid off rather quickly. I think I owed $500 which represented 1/2 of one months pay in my first job. Now, the average student debt is I'd say 30,000 which represents about a years pay. I also didn't worry about healthcare. It was part of my first job. Today, if it weren't for Obamacare and kids piggybacking onto boomer parents healthcare until 26.... it would be unaffordable. Especially because most are cobbling together part time jobs without healthcare and pension plans and living with their boomer parents again. How does an economy grow with those stats? Zero per cent interest and courage get everyone to live on debt. My sons first home was filled with hand me down furniture from boomer parents. The pitiful growth rate we are experiencing is due mainly to boomer parents supporting their kids. When that money runs out.....look out. Meantime, some of the most frugal citizens we have are boomers kids. They see the writing in the wall and they don't live extravagantly.

[razz]

It seems like this has been totally overcome now.
Latest stats I read is while the difference has been decreasing somewhat, there is still a 20% gap for the same job. Now more women are being hired for less pay for the same job. Male managers are finding more challenges seeking a job, for example.

[Ultralight]

My workplace is dominated by women, as I mentioned before. 4 women to every 1 man. This goes up through the ranks and is very common in higher education settings.

But women now are more likely to go to college, they are more likely to do better in college. Women are also more likely to graduate from college and go on to graduate school. Then in graduate school the whole phenomenon happens again -- they do better and graduate more and with more accolades than men.

Perhaps that 20% difference will right itself in a couple more years.

[Ultralight]

I must be living in a different world than some of you when I graduated college, 1981-82...my student loans were negligible and paid off rather quickly. I think I owed $500 which represented 1/2 of one months pay in my first job. Now, the average student debt is I'd say 30,000 which represents about a years pay. I also didn't worry about healthcare. It was part of my first job. Today, if it weren't for Obamacare and kids piggybacking onto boomer parents healthcare until 26.... it would be unaffordable. Especially because most are cobbling together part time jobs without healthcare and pension plans and living with their boomer parents again. How does an economy grow with those stats? Zero per cent interest and courage get everyone to live on debt. My sons first home was filled with hand me down furniture from boomer parents. The pitiful growth rate we are experiencing is due mainly to boomer parents supporting their kids. When that money runs out.....look out. Meantime, some of the most frugal citizens we have are boomers kids. They see the writing in the wall and they don't live extravagantly.

I really wish you could have been at this potluck and poked and prodded the conversation a little. I think it would have been very revealing!

[Teacher Terry]

When I graduated HS in 1972 my friends that had parents that could afford to pay for their college did much better then those that did not. Some of my friends delayed marriage/kids which certainly helped them financially. I got married young and was a SAHM so $ was very tight. Then when I went to college we did not qualify for any grants so my DH worked 7 days/week to pay for my school. For grad school I got scholarships, etc for having a high GPA. When we bought our home in 1980 the interest rate was 12%. It was an old run down house and we couldn't even afford to paint the inside ourselves for a few years. The only vacation we ever had was driving to visit relatives every summer for a few weeks. We had 2 old cars and was lucky if one was running. However, we were frugal and always put aside alittle for retirement, etc. It took us a long time to be able to afford nice things and trips.

[iris lilies]

I really cannot participate in yet another thread about how boomers had it so good and Gen Xers have it so bad.

But I was struck by the numbers UL gave recently about his paycheck and rent. UL is this right, your take home money is $2,000 and your rent $1,000 monthly?

I remembered that becauseit is exactly twice what my finances were as a single person back about 30 years ago. My take home monthly pay was $1,000 and my house payment was $500. I remember that because my mom commented that I would be able to pay for the house and have an entire paycheck leftover for other expenses.

[Ultralight]

My take home pay is $2500 -- that is after taxes and such, you know, various deductions. So yeah, once per month I get paid $2500.

My rent alone is $860. Pile utils on top of that and I breach $1000.

[Ultralight]

I really cannot participate in yet another thread about how boomers had it so good and Gen Xers have it so bad.

But... you kinda just did! ;)

The thing that I want people to notice is that maybe, just maybe, the Boomer lifestyle is not the gold standard of a great life.

In one of Jeff Yeager's Cheapskate books he said something like:

"You can make a good living and you can make a good life but you can also have one without the other."

[iris lilies]

But... you kinda just did! ;)

but only a little. Any more and I will die of boredom with this topic. Maybe.:~)

So, by 1985 numbers you have a whole lot more money to play with vis a vis rent/housepayment than I had.

$500 was my house payment, did not include utilities or of course any maintenance. So you are way ahead of me with disposable income after paying living expenses.

UL take home $2500
rent with utilities $1,000

iris take home pay back in the day $1,000
house payment with no utilities $500

One reason I bought a house is to have a garden. I made a deliberate choice to water the garden over having an air conditioner in the summer.

[Ultralight]

Welp... I guess I got it made in the shade! :)

[LDAHL]

Isn't "Boomer lifestyle" every bit as much a rhetorical construct as "the American Dream"? A straw man we set up to take pot shots at?

I suppose every generation has an interest in minimizing the struggles that came before or after to make their own seem more heroic.

[iris lilies]

Now, we just need redfox (former poster) here to elaborate on the many reasons why her father's generation, the Greatest Generation, had it so good but she, redfox (exactly my age, smack dab in the middle of boomers) had to struggle without all the societal support that was given to her father and my father.

I was always "WTF?" at her point of view.

[Ultralight]

Isn't "Boomer lifestyle" every bit as much a rhetorical construct as "the American Dream"? A straw man we set up to take pot shots at?

I suppose every generation has an interest in minimizing the struggles that came before or after to make their own seem more heroic.

Could be. Could be.

But I will always be jealous of boomers for this reason: The 1970s!

No AIDS and plenty of disco!

[iris lilies]

Welp... I guess I got it made in the shade! :)

I believe it is more Harlan who has it made. His daddy's got bucks.

[LDAHL]

Could be. Could be.

But I will always be jealous of boomers for this reason: The 1970s!

No AIDS and plenty of disco!

The only good thing about the seventies was that the sixties were finally over.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Now, we just need redfox (former poster) here to elaborate on the many reasons why her father's generation, the Greatest Generation, had it so good but she, redfox (exactly my age, smack dab in the middle of boomers) had to struggle without all that of the societal support that was given to her father and my father.

one thing about Great Depression survivors is they sometimes had some understanding that much was about the times one found oneself in, they had seen PhDs washing dishes, they knew it happened then it could happen again, times were often not good (I remember my dad into retirement complaining when he read headlines about some company or other doing mass layoffs - world going to heck in a handbasket etc.).

[Ultralight]

I have said it before and I will say it again:

I try to be Harlan's personal Bernie Sanders and give him a socialist paradise where I pay for his food, shelter, medicine, entertainment, etc.

The Commissar of Employment (me) tasked him with only one job: Snuggles.

And as Sheriff I only have a few laws:

Don't bite anyone.
Go to the bathroom outside.
Don't bark.

I am something of a civil libertarian. :)

So far it works out well. haha

[catherine]

Could be. Could be.

But I will always be jealous of boomers for this reason: The 1970s!

No AIDS and plenty of disco!

If you had said you were jealous of the 60s, I'd sit here smugly and say, yup, you are right to be jealous! 70s were a little weird to me. Thoughts of polyester and avocado shag carpeting gives me nightmare flashbacks. But give me all that upbeat music ("Life I love you, All is Groovy!") and Flower Power! I think we were too high (on drugs or just on life) to complain about our financial or job status.

[Teacher Terry]

IL: my parents were WW 2 generation and had a tough time when young. When my Dad came back from the war apartments were in such demand that they had to rent a room in someone's house and share the kitchen and bathroom with another family. My parents definitely had it harder then we did and for a longer time too. Eventually they were in the middle class. I think now because of easy credit we see people with all this stuff and think they can afford it when probably they can't and are living beyond their means. My parents generation did not have access to easy credit so had to live within their means.

[catherine]

The only good thing about the seventies was that the sixties were finally over.

haha.. two different perspectives. But I guess if you were rooting for Barry Goldwater, the sixties would be a bitter disappointment.

[iris lilies]

IL: my parents were WW 2 generation and had a tough time when young. When my Dad came back from the war apartments were in such demand that they had to rent a room in someone's house and share the kitchen and bathroom with another family. My parents definitely had it harder then we did and for a longer time too. Eventually they were in the middle class. I think now because of easy credit we see people with all this stuff and think they can afford it when probably they can't and are living beyond their means. My parents generation did not have access to easy credit so had to live within their means.
My parents were kids during the Depression. They both had upbeat points of view: my mom said "we were ok because my dad had a job. Anyone who had a job could live reasonably."

My dad's family didnt have a job, they had a farm, my dad always said "we were never hungry because we lived on a farm [and presumably all of the things that go with that such as beef, pork, garden produce, eggs.]

Then my dad got to go fight Japs on a giant ship that was blown up.

Then he came home to the housing situation you described, and he and my mother lived in a garage.

It was all good, they didnt mind it, it was fine. But better off then we, their children? No way.

[Rogar]

I don't know enough about millennials to make a good comparison, but most of my boomer friends have lived comfortable lives and have had a chance to retire before the traditional age, which I guess might be 65 or so. Most of them have liked their jobs and some have said they really don't want to retire. But as a qualifier most of my work friends and social circle have at least a bachelors in technical fields and have gone through longer periods of time in their jobs where a 60 hour work week was not unusual.

I think one difference I see is that the boomer generation went through a time when it seemed important to "go out and find yourself". A lot of us bummed around the country taking odd or crazy jobs and seeing the sights when we were in our 20's. I know of several who went the peace corps in wild places and even one or two who went to India to seek enlightenment. It was popular to hitchhike and maybe backpack through Europe. Most of the millenials I know of don't seem to be interested in these things. A lot still live at home and like to hang with their hommies and a lot more have gone almost right from school to the serious pursuit of job and home ownership. I don't get the feeling that that sense of adventure is quite as strong.

EDTA: Oh yeah, a few I know got drafted and went to Viet Nam against their wills and came back with problems.

[iris lilies]

I have said it before and I will say it again:

I try to be Harlan's personal Bernie Sanders and give him a socialist paradise where I pay for his food, shelter, medicine, entertainment, etc.

The Commissar of Employment (me) tasked him with only one job: Snuggles.

And as Sheriff I only have a few laws:

Don't bite anyone.
Go to the bathroom outside.
Don't bark.

I am something of a civil libertarian. :)

So far it works out well. haha

hahaha, yep.

With our Bozo, his initial employment contract called for him to make us laugh at least 1X daily. He fullfilled that requirement admirably! Lately, because we are now accustomed to him and his antics and we are a tougher crowd for comedy, I ask only that he make me laugh 1X weekly. He gave a steller performance at the vet's office last week, earning a bonus.

[Ultralight]

hahaha, yep.

With our Bozo, his initial employment contract called for him to make us laugh at least 1X daily. He fullfilled that requirement admirably! Lately, because we are now accustomed to him and his antics and we are a tougher crowd for comedy, I ask only that he make me laugh 1X weekly. He gave a steller performance at the vet's office last week, earning a bonus.

Sweet!! :)

[frugal-one]

UA ... I HATE THIS SLOGAN.... America is GREAT!

Also, to note, in the 70's house interest rates were over 10%... look at now. Things were not so great then!

[iris lilies]

UA ... I HATE THIS SLOGAN.... America is GREAT!

Also, to note, in the 70's house interest rates were over 10%... look at now. Things were not so great then!
I looked at a house to buy where the owners held a mortgage at an interest rate or either 14% or 16%, I cant remember which, but it was one of those. they wanted a buyer to assume that mortgage. Ugh.

[Alan]

Also, to note, in the 70's house interest rates were over 10%... look at now. Things were not so great then!


I looked at a house t buy where the owners held a mortgage at an interest rate or either 14% or 16%&
I cant remember which, but it was one of those Nd they wanted a buyer to assume that mortgage. Ugh.
We bought our first home, a condo, in 1979. Being a veteran, I qualified for a VA loan so we were able to secure a 10% mortgage and were lucky to get that as rates were steadily increasing. In 1982 we wanted to move up to a single family residence although rates were so high we shopped mortgages until we found a variable rate loan guaranteed at, I believe, 8% for the first 36 months. The problem was finding a buyer for the condo. Conventional rates were so high, no one could afford the loan. VA loans are assumable so we eventually found a buyer willing to assume our existing mortgage and we jumped at the opportunity to sell. In 1985 the buyer defaulted on the loan and we got to experience the thrill of retaining responsibility for the original loan. Luckily the condo sold at auction for only a few thousand dollars less than the mortgage balance and we were able to pay that off through a government approved payment plan.

Looking back on those times, the market sucked, the economy sucked. In my experience, the only way people got ahead was through patience and learning from their mistakes. It was a hard row to hoe for many of us young boomers.

Regarding all the talk about people having pensions and great job prospects that no longer exist, I never experienced that either. As a child, no one in my extended family or family friends or neighbors had pensions and the jobs that were available as I came of age were hard to find and paid very little. I was able to slowly get ahead of the game by going into the military shortly after high school, serving 4 years and then using the benefits available to a Vietnam era veteran to go to school while working night shifts in an entry level position. Over time, with modest raises and additional responsibilities, prospects began to get better and by the time our daughter was in high school, we finally got to a point I'd consider comfortable and things have gotten even better since then.

It seems to me that younger folks can do the same. You just have to consider your work life from the standpoint of compound interest. You keep plugging away, make the smartest choices you can and be patient. After 20 or 30 years the return is measurable, plus you'll have the added benefit of having the latest generation tell you how great you had it.

[Lainey]

I too graduated from college in the late '70s into a recession. I got a government-subsidized job at a community college (it was the fed gov't "CETA" program if anyone remembers) that also provided benefits.
I only owed $2,000 in student loans.
Moved, changed jobs, and bought a first house with my then hub at 13% interest. Continued the steady climb as others have done and now own 2 homes and expect to retire next year with Soc. Sec. and a pension and savings. Have worked steadily full-time for 40 years minus 6 weeks off for unpaid maternity leave so it's about time.

But. I also have a Millennial son and d-in-law and am around them, their friends, and my Millennial co-workers, enough to dismiss the stereotype that they are lazy, entitled and not willing to wait to acquire things. What I see is that they have a different timeline for a lot of cultural things: babies can come before marriage and are just as welcome; marriage is delayed til late 20s/early 30s; homeownership is a plus but not necessary; and work/life balance is important enough that they will not consider job advancement just for its own sake.

I also see that the Millennials in my limited circle are very happy to get a full-time job with benefits (it's certainly no longer a given); that they understand retirement is on their own, no pensions; that they have to use much more of their net income to pay off student loans, pay rent, and pay medical insurance and out of pocket medical bills. A few are getting help from mom and dad either with subsidizing some bills or providing child care, or maybe helping pay their way for a family vacation.

Yes, it's different for them.

[Williamsmith]

I'm trying to figure out why the differences in perspective between two people who essentially were raised in parallel communities and there is of course that either one of us is not remembering things accurately, or either one or both of us have a political narrative that we shape our experiences around.

But out of all the issues that could be misremembered or intentionally altered for the purpose of making a political comment about the opportunities or lack thereof......one is something we should agree on. Healthcare costs represent a more significant roadblock to success now than the past.

Perhaps if we take some of the nostalgia out of it, we can be honest about the prospects going forward. Which is very important to my relationship with my three kids. When I interact with them, should I be speaking in terms of how hard they have it or should i be saying just keep plugging along and if you work hard you'll get ahead like me.

Something I looked at was the history of our national debt compared to our gross domestic product as a ratio. Today it sits at around 101%. Not too encouraging. Let's look at some benchmarks. WW2 ...end of 1945. 114%. But we had just fought an immensely expensive war effort. There was a lot of optimism going forward. 1959... My birth year . 54%. Wow, things had really gotten better and the interest rates were raised because the growth rate was 7.25%. All through the 60s the ratio dropped. When Nixon became President....1970 it was 35%. By the time I graduated high school and headed to college the rate dropped a little more...1977 ..33%. The turning point seemed to be just about the time I entered the workforce....1982-83...... the ratio began creeping up...37%. Through the so called glory years of Reagan it continued.....at the beginning of Desert Storm 1990 it was 53%. We had blown through almost 20'per cent age points. Through the Clinton era......1995 ....64%.

Between 1995 and 2005 we made some progress the other direction.... It dropped as low as 54% in 2000 but in 2005 ended at 60%. My kids were growing up during this period.

Then steady until 2008..........the great swindle of the American middleclass. Katrina, the Iraq War and the Bank Bail out all combined to send us into a tumble. 67% and climbing fast. By 2009 we blew through the 70 percentages and into 83%. In three more years, we blew through the 90s. The last three years have been....100, 102 and101 respectively.

If you look at the national debt compared to GDP.......It helps put some perspective on it.

[Ultralight]

After 20 or 30 years...

...your mind, body, and spirit is broken.

[Alan]

...your mind, body, and spirit is broken.Nope! Just normal wear and tear on the first two while the third has never soared higher.

[LDAHL]

I think people may also be somewhat overestimating the past importance of pensions and underestimating the destructive power of inflation. Pensions were more common from the 40s through the 70s, but mostly relatively small and not inflation-indexed. I can remember that when people said "I'm on a fixed income" it was code for "I'm broke".

[LDAHL]

...your mind, body, and spirit is broken.

Wow. Working in a library must be brutal.

[Williamsmith]

An aging population. Now there's something two reasonable people can agree on. Our national debt is on an upward climb without any hope of abatement. Unlike WW2 when the reason was that we had just fought Nazi Germany and Imperialistc Japan. Today it is because we are getting old. Social security, Medicare, Medicaide and Obamacare are our WW3. But the war will never end unless we 1. Collect more taxes. And 2. Cut benefits. Not one. Both.

Not reducing the debt results at some point in creditors demanding higher interest rates and possibly no confidence that it will ever be paid back. Reducing the debt requires something nobody wants to talk about. Perhaps this is where parents are wondering what happens to all the "progress" their kids will make when somebody in government finally has the nuts to collect more taxes and cut benefits? Austerity indeed.

I have read estimates of additional taxes for middleclass between $750 to $1700 a year and reductions in social security payments of $2500 a year just to keep the debt as it is.

So what's your future look like if you are not only trying to make your own headway but supporting three others who are not of the contributing age anymore.

[Ultralight]

I don't work in a library.

I work in a windowless basement in a tiny grey cubicle with one entrance/exit doing data entry.

So you might not call it brutal, but you could call it mind-numbing, soul crushing, and physically restraining such that I have carpal tunnel syndrome.

[LDAHL]

An aging population. Now there's something two reasonable people can agree on. Our national debt is on an upward climb without any hope of abatement. Unlike WW2 when the reason was that we had just fought Nazi Germany and Imperialistc Japan. Today it is because we are getting old. Social security, Medicare, Medicaide and Obamacare are our WW3. But the war will never end unless we 1. Collect more taxes. And 2. Cut benefits. Not one. Both.

Not reducing the debt results at some point in creditors demanding higher interest rates and possibly no confidence that it will ever be paid back. Reducing the debt requires something nobody wants to talk about. Perhaps this is where parents are wondering what happens to all the "progress" their kids will make when somebody in government finally has the nuts to collect more taxes and cut benefits? Austerity indeed.

I have read estimates of additional taxes for middleclass between $750 to $1700 a year and reductions in social security payments of $2500 a year just to keep the debt as it is.

So what's your future look like if you are not only trying to make your own headway but supporting three others who are not of the contributing age anymore.

I think you're right that entitlement reform will be a crucial issue in the coming years. We aren't aging as rapidly as most of the developed world, so we will at least be able to see how Europe and Japan handle the demographic challenge a little in advance of us. In the final analysis, a society can only consume as much as the real economy produces, and no amount of political jiggery-pokery can change that in the long term.

[Williamsmith]

I don't work in a library.

I work in a windowless basement in a tiny grey cubicle with one entrance/exit doing data entry.

So you might not call it brutal, but you could call it mind-numbing, soul crushing, and physically restraining such that I have carpal tunnel syndrome.

Well, the good news is that with the right doctor and endless appeals you might eventually get social security disability payments before social security funds go broke.

[LDAHL]

I don't work in a library.

I work in a windowless basement in a tiny grey cubicle with one entrance/exit doing data entry.

So you might not call it brutal, but you could call it mind-numbing, soul crushing, and physically restraining such that I have carpal tunnel syndrome.

Plenty, perhaps most people hate their jobs to some greater or lesser extent. That is not uniquely true for any one generation.

[Williamsmith]

I think you're right that entitlement reform will be a crucial issue in the coming years. We aren't aging as rapidly as most of the developed world, so we will at least be able to see how Europe and Japan handle the demographic challenge a little in advance of us. In the final analysis, a society can only consume as much as the real economy produces, and no amount of political jiggery-pokery can change that in the long term.

I hate to be negative again....but Japan and Europe have already shown us what shit hit the fan planning they have. IGNORE IT !! I don't want to be them. My kids are doing their best for it not to be us. They all pay taxes and take nothing from the government.

[catherine]

Instead of this pi$$ing contest over who has it the worst, let's look on the bright side. I'm not really fond of the ubiquitous photo-quotes, but I was thinking about this thread yesterday waiting for an Uber, and how lucky we are to live in these times at the very least from a technological standpoint. We can argue about the downsides of technology, but it has improved so many things. Then I saw this on FB:

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13240731_10153654457153581_2411642634657285088_n.j pg?oh=d86106b3317a3d2718cb027457282889&oe=57A7A586

[Ultralight]

Well, the good news is that with the right doctor and endless appeals you might eventually get social security disability payments before social security funds go broke.

It is not quite that bleak. My carpel tunnel and repetitive motion injuries are not to that level yet. And if I see that in the horizon I will quit this job in a heartbeat.

Right now I am hanging on because of my student loans and because I just signed a long lease for my apartment.

I am looking at other jobs to apply to and I am signed up to take classes for as long as I am working at the university, so maybe I can move to another line of work.

[LDAHL]

I hate to be negative again....but Japan and Europe have already shown us what shit hit the fan planning they have. IGNORE IT !! I don't want to be them. My kids are doing their best for it not to be us. They all pay taxes and take nothing from the government.

A bad example can be as valuable as a good one, and ignoring the world at large has always been a problem for Americans.

[LDAHL]

Instead of this pi$$ing contest over who has it the worst, let's look on the bright side. I'm not really fond of the ubiquitous photo-quotes, but I was thinking about this thread yesterday waiting for an Uber, and how lucky we are to live in these times at the very least from a technological standpoint. We can argue about the downsides of technology, but it has improved so many things. Then I saw this on FB:

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13240731_10153654457153581_2411642634657285088_n.j pg?oh=d86106b3317a3d2718cb027457282889&oe=57A7A586

Expectations have certainly changed over time. What used to be a nice Ward and June house would be looked at as a hovel by many today. Medical costs were much lower because we died before we got the chance to run up a huge tab and the more expensive miracles were yet to be invented.

[JaneV2.0]

Medical costs were much lower because there was no bloated nexus of insurers and Pharma reps and shareholders with their hands out. Just doctors and patients and no expectations of huge profits. Also, quite a few people lived long lives. My great grandfather made it to 90, and if he hadn't decided to chop up some firewood one day, he might have lived longer. .Life expectancy then skews low because of very high infant mortality.

[frugal-one]

...your mind, body, and spirit is broken.

Some would say your generation wants everything now.... house, cars, vacations etc... Older generations started out small and worked hard to get the things wanted/needed. Having "things", including time off, is a build up of hard work. I have to say my spirit is at the highest! I have worked hard and deserve my retirement!

[Ultralight]

Some would say your generation wants everything now.... fancy house, cars, vacations etc... Older generations started out small and worked to get the fancy whatever (if they so chose). Having "things", including time off, is a build up of hard work.

Work hard until you are 67 and then you get all that time off? Hmmm... that math is funky. haha

I don't think my generation wants "everything now."

I don't even think we want all the stuff the Boomers got. I think we just want an even break and perhaps some meaningful work. Oh, and healthcare and weekends off.

[frugal-one]

Work hard until you are 67 and then you get all that time off? Hmmm... that math is funky. haha

I don't think my generation wants "everything now."

I don't even think we want all the stuff the Boomers got. I think we just want an even break and perhaps some meaningful work. Oh, and healthcare and weekends off.

What we got was working 50-60 hours per week. That did not include weekends off. You have a fantasy of what boomers got. Also, I did not work until 67. Because I was frugal all of my life, I was able to retire "early"..... age 57.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It is not quite that bleak. My carpel tunnel and repetitive motion injuries are not to that level yet. And if I see that in the horizon I will quit this job in a heartbeat.

well I hear people get it for mental health sometimes, which who doesn't qualify for, I could probably meet it (see I think depressed and so on may count). But I don't know how hard it really is to get. I have some carpal tunnel.

Thinking anyone is getting disability without really serious disabilities is like finding out people openly mention working under the table for taxes, and I want to pull my hair out clump by clump on hearing it. you .... don't .... pay .... your .... taxes :0!

[ApatheticNoMore]

What we got was working 50-60 hours per week.

what I get from this is: you couldn't find any jobs for 40 hours a week? Maybe lived forever in a depressed area or something, I don't know. Because even though overtime law is really not being enforced now, 40 hour a week jobs exist. You don't have to be stuck in 50-60 hour jobs a week unless you really truly can not find another job (of course with those long hours one might become too tired to even look for another job).

[iris lilies]

I too graduated from college in the late '70s into a recession. I got a government-subsidized job at a community college (it was the fed gov't "CETA" program if anyone remembers) that also provided bemefits....

Well I remember CETA. I supervised about a dozen CETA employees.

The quality of CETA employees was lousy where we were. I think it was only one of them who moved into a regular position after their CETA employment expired.

[Geila]

The availability of credit has certainly changed how people live. You no longer have to live within your means and delayed gratification is kaput. Remember when you had to do layaway if you wanted to buy something you couldn't afford? You could visit your item and make weekly payments! It's charming when you think about it. You had to really want that jean jacket! :)

Right now we're saving up for a home project and I'm sure most people would think it's silly when we could just charge it or take out a HELOC (or take the money out of our emergency fund) but I'm enjoying the process of saving up for it.

Every time I log on here I'm amazed that there is yet another thread about how UA is poor and broken by the system despite his many advanced degrees. And these threads are loong! :) I think SLF has found its new niche.

[JaneV2.0]

Speaking from experience, as a boomer, I benefited from all the advantages listed above. I easily paid for my own education, working part time while I went to school. After I graduated and had got a non-traditional job (thanks to my foremothers), I bought my first house (condo) for $35K. Again, thanks to women and men who broke down the financial barriers to home ownership for women only years before). I rarely worked more than 40 hours a week, except for occasional overtime, which was never mandatory. I didn't pay a dime for health care until recently; it was all covered by my employer (thank you, unions). I returned the favor by using it very little. I moved up to the house I live in now, which I bought for $99K thirty years ago. It's now worth many times that. I earned a pension that enabled me to retire after 30 years, at 47, and since my health care was paid for as part of my retirement, I didn't think twice about taking it.

When I look around now, and see people struggling with disappearing jobs and obscene health care costs and 40 and 50 year old "kids" living with their parents, I feel very, very fortunate. I didn't put much thought into planning my life--and would I had to do over, I would certainly make many changes--but at least I wasn't fighting against all the institutionalized barriers that exist now. Barriers mostly caused by greed, IMO. Maybe it's not too late to turn it all around. I hope not.

And I don't think for a minute that the generations coming up after mine are lazy, ungrateful, entitled, or any of the other adjectives that are thrown around. I do think for the most part, they are less well-educated than we were. But they've been dealt a poor hand, and only the exceptionally bright, strong, or well-connected are likely to make something of it.

[iris lilies]

The availability of credit has certainly changed how people live. You no longer have to live within your means and delayed gratification is kaput. Remember when you had to do layaway if you wanted to buy something you couldn't afford? You could visit your item and make weekly payments! It's charming when you think about it. You had to really want that jean jacket! :)

Right now we're saving up for a home project and I'm sure most people would think it's silly when we could just charge it or take out a HELOC (or take the money out of our emergency fund) but I'm enjoying the process of saving up for it.

Every time I log on here I'm amazed that there is yet another thread about how UA is poor and broken by the system despite his many advanced degrees. And these threads are loong! :) I think SLF has found its new niche.

Layaway! i remember that. Can you imagine hw much space stores had to devote to storing this stuff? What a pain that would have been.

I read (? here maybe?) that a store has brought back the service of layaway.

[Ultralight]

well I hear people get it for mental health sometimes, which who doesn't qualify for, I could probably meet it (see I think depressed and so on may count).

I know a few people who are on disability for mental health. And they make me look like I talk sunshine and laugh rainbows. One is perpetually suicidal. Another one is so bonkers that she has to spend long stretches in the funny farm.

[Ultralight]

Every time I log on here I'm amazed that there is yet another thread about how UA is poor and broken by the system despite his many advanced degrees. And these threads are loong! :) I think SLF has found its new niche.

Call me a revolutionary! Vive le UA!

[Ultralight]

Speaking from experience, as a boomer, I benefited from all the advantages listed above. I easily paid for my own education, working part time while I went to school. After I graduated and had got a non-traditional job (thanks to my foremothers), I bought my first house (condo) for $35K. Again, thanks to women and men who broke down the financial barriers to home ownership for women only years before). I rarely worked more than 40 hours a week, except for occasional overtime, which was never mandatory. I didn't pay a dime for health care until recently; it was all covered by my employer (thank you, unions). I returned the favor by using it very little. I moved up to the house I live in now, which I bought for $99K thirty years ago. It's now worth many times that. I earned a pension that enabled me to retire after 30 years, at 47, and since my health care was paid for as part of my retirement, I didn't think twice about taking it.

When I look around now, and see people struggling with disappearing jobs and obscene health care costs and 40 and 50 year old "kids" living with their parents, I feel very, very fortunate. I didn't put much thought into planning my life--and would I had to do over, I would certainly make many changes--but at least I wasn't fighting against all the institutionalized barriers that exist now. Barriers mostly caused by greed, IMO. Maybe it's not too late to turn it all around. I hope not.

And I don't think for a minute that the generations coming up after mine are lazy, ungrateful, entitled, or any of the other adjectives that are thrown around. I do think for the most part, they are less well-educated than we were. But they've been dealt a poor hand, and only the exceptionally bright, strong, or well-connected are likely to make something of it.

Swimming against the current with these statements. :)

[Teacher Terry]

SSDI is extremely hard to get unless you are terminal. Years ago it was easy to get and it was abused. SA users got it all the time. By 1997 it was very hard to obtain. I would have clients that wanted to work but I knew needed SSDI after a thorough eval. They keep denying people and if you miss a deadline to appeal you have to start all over. AFter they deny you a bunch of times you get a hearing before a judge that can take up to 2 years to be heard. There you get a fair shot because the judge has a vocational expert that understand disability and the job market and has no vested interest in how the case turns out. When I worked for the state after my eval if I thought the person could not work I would write a detailed report explaining what they could and could not do, the job market, etc and then they usually won. When a judge realized I had done an eval but he didn't have the report he suspended the hearing and told the person to come to our office and get the report before he ruled. Once I retired I was asked repeatedly to be a voc expert for them but it is very stressful and not how I want to spend my golden years. In regard to pensions my Dad got one from an auto co but literally paid for it with his life. He was a tool grinder when you did not wear protective equipment. By age 54 he couldn't walk a block and could barely breathe but got a great pension for his 30 years of service that he couldn't enjoy because he was house bound. It did support them until my Mom died almost 40 years later. Right now if you want a pension you need to work for the government in some form.

[pinkytoe]

My observations are based on how I experienced youth, how I raised DD and how she and her peers (3arly 30s) manage their lives now. The biggest difference I can see is that when I grew up back in the 60s-70s, your parents were your parents and not your best buds. I am constantly amazed at how involved so many parents today seem to be in their children's lives compared to what I knew growing up and that the kids actually like their parents; in that respect they have a lot more emotional (and maybe financial) support than I ever did. There were a lot more average, middle income people then, ie sameness. The expectations to "succeed" seem much more emphasized today. Pros and cos of both I guess but my sense is that if you are a young person born into a privileged situation, then you have it much better today than anything I ever experienced.

[iris lilies]

well I hear people get it for mental health sometimes, which who doesn't qualify for, I could probably meet it (see I think depressed and so on may count). But I don't know how hard it really is to get. I have some carpal tunnel.

Thinking anyone is getting disability without really serious disabilities is like finding out people openly mention working under the table for taxes, and I want to pull my hair out clump by clump on hearing it. you .... don't .... pay .... your ...taxes :0!

mental health issues? One of my employees developed schizophrenia and applied for SSDI. I dont know if she got it, but I assume she did. I hVe looked at her Facebook page amd she seems to,write only when she is having an episode. There are some very scary (for her) thoughts eminating from her, so I would not want her in the workplace.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't know personally really, I just hear rumors (via word of mouth) that people are getting disability right and left sometimes, which is as annoying as hearing people openly admit they work under the table.

[frugal-one]

what I get from this is: you couldn't find any jobs for 40 hours a week? Maybe lived forever in a depressed area or something, I don't know. Because even though overtime law is really not being enforced now, 40 hour a week jobs exist. You don't have to be stuck in 50-60 hour jobs a week unless you really truly can not find another job (of course with those long hours one might become too tired to even look for another job).

You forget about salaried individuals.... rarely work 40 hours per week.

[ApatheticNoMore]

You forget about salaried individuals.... rarely work 40 hours per week.

Well the salaried classification didn't used to be so broad at one point. I think it was initially only management. Among salaried things there is a lot of variation, so I don't think accepting long hours forever is really inevitable just because it's a salaried position, but varies depending on the company. Some companies are just not very good to work for of course.

[Alan]

Well the salaried classification didn't used to be so broad at one point,
I'm not aware of an official classification of 'salaried', I think you're substituting it for 'exempt'. Anyone can be salaried, but in order to be classified as exempt, you simply need to have discretion and independent judgment in matters pertaining to your responsibilities. Non-exempt employees can be either salaried or hourly.

[frugal-one]

I'm not aware of an official classification of 'salaried', I think you're substituting it for 'exempt'. Anyone can be salaried, but in order to be classified as exempt, you simply need to have discretion and independent judgment in matters pertaining to your responsibilities. Non-exempt employees can be either salaried or hourly.

Yes, anyone can be salaried. The difference is job duties for classification. If you do not meet the requirement of exempt then you must be paid overtime for hours over 40 (albeit less than if an hourly employee). Ask me, I used to enforce that law (section 541 of federal law). Employers can require you to work any number of hours (except for hazardous positions) and just have to pay you properly.

[Alan]

Yes, anyone can be salaried. The difference is job duties for classification. If you do not meet the requirement of exempt then you must be paid overtime for hours over 40 (albeit less than if an hourly employer). Ask me, I used to enforce that law (section 541 of federal law).Yes, I think some believe all salaried employees are exempt from FLSA requirements.

[LDAHL]

I don't know personally really, I just hear rumors (via word of mouth) that people are getting disability right and left sometimes, which is as annoying as hearing people openly admit they work under the table.

According to this article SSDI has about doubled over the past twenty years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/04/01/the-simple-boring-reason-why-disability-insurance-has-exploded/

[Teacher Terry]

Frugal: what you are hearing is wrong. I have friends that work by phone as voc experts all over the country on the SSDI cases and like I said before it is extremely hard to get. If you get it you are bad off.

[Ultralight]

Frugal: what you are hearing is wrong. I have friends that work by phone as voc experts all over the country on the SSDI cases and like I said before it is extremely hard to get. If you get it you are bad off.

Come on, they hand it out like Pez! It has basically removed any incentive for anyone to work or innovate. CEOs are resigning daily to just get on disability payments for their profound spiritual ennui.

[iris lilies]

Come on, they hand it out like Pez! It has basically removed any incentive for anyone to work or innovate. CEOs are resigning daily to just get on disability payments for their profound spiritual ennui.
You forgot to add [/saracsm]

[Teacher Terry]

UL: like usual you are right:~)

[frugal-one]

Frugal: what you are hearing is wrong. I have friends that work by phone as voc experts all over the country on the SSDI cases and like I said before it is extremely hard to get. If you get it you are bad off.

It wasn't me talking about SSDI.

[Teacher Terry]

So sorry about that. It was ANM.

[jp1]

Could be. Could be.

But I will always be jealous of boomers for this reason: The 1970s!

No AIDS and plenty of disco!

Yeah but the hairdos back then. Uggggh. No thank you.

[jp1]

Go to the bathroom outside.
Don't bark.

I am something of a civil libertarian. :)


You're sort of a combination of the worst of both current republicans and democrats. You want to dictate where to go to the bathroom and you want to stifle the poor guy's first amendment rights. Hardly the epitomy of libertarianism! :-)

[jp1]

I think you're right that entitlement reform will be a crucial issue in the coming years. We aren't aging as rapidly as most of the developed world, so we will at least be able to see how Europe and Japan handle the demographic challenge a little in advance of us. In the final analysis, a society can only consume as much as the real economy produces, and no amount of political jiggery-pokery can change that in the long term.

And the federal reserve bank has been desperately trying to do financial jiggery-pokery to avoid reality. Unfortunately the world economy has changed and despite all the money printing they haven't been particularly successful at creating the large-scale general inflation that will solve the problem of reducing the debt and reducing benefits without any politician explicitly doing so. But the only areas where they've truly succeeded in creating inflation are the stock market, healthcare, college tuition costs and housing. Depending on one's exposure to these things one can either view the economy as great, awful, or somewhere in between, which probably at least partly accounts for the variety of perspectives presented in this thread.

[Williamsmith]

The economy is false. It is a Hollywood frontier town with storefronts, hitching posts and saloons with nothing behind the walls. It looks good from Out in the muddy street but inside there is nothingness. A bunch of private bankers assisted by government is looking to inflate their way out of the debt we have racked up with loans that were never going to be collected. Are we so sick that there is no remedy? Or can we slowly dig our way out and set some kind of monetary policy that honors our future. I don't know. I know Clinton is more of the neocon bullcrap that got us here. Trump talks a big game on trade. If he does nothing else, if he just moves the economy a bit in the right direction it will be more than any of the last two Presidents have done together. The Freedom candidate is gone. He was rule changed out of the 2012 convention and now because of that rule change they have even more trouble trying to keep Trump out. Well, screw the establishment ....they get back what they deserve.

[Ultralight]

You're sort of a combination of the worst of both current republicans and democrats. You want to dictate where to go to the bathroom and you want to stifle the poor guy's first amendment rights. Hardly the epitomy of libertarianism! :-)


LOL

[Alan]

"Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'."

[LDAHL]

"Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'."

The Boomers infantilized pop culture (especially music) throughout the sixties and seventies, largely because they took it so seriously. The previous generation lied about being at Omaha Beach. Boomers lied about being at Woodstock. Music didn't get fun again until the eighties.

[Ultralight]

Dude. Disco is pure fun!

[LDAHL]

Dude. Disco is pure fun!

Clearly you didn't live through those dark and ugly years, or you wouldn't joke about such a tragedy.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRa0TuT6dKQQWalm9ZoI2lKB7AOuEOnn LudQ1gWqtX0qkIlmJIZRw

Fortunately, about the time Jimmy Carter handed the keys to Ronald Reagan and Devo released Duty Now for the Future, America woke from it's long nightmare and we regained our dignity.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d4/Devo-DutyNowUK.jpg/220px-Devo-DutyNowUK.jpg

[Ultralight]

Clearly you didn't live through those dark and ugly years, or you wouldn't joke about such a tragedy.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRa0TuT6dKQQWalm9ZoI2lKB7AOuEOnn LudQ1gWqtX0qkIlmJIZRw

Fortunately, about the time Jimmy Carter handed the keys to Ronald Reagan and Devo released Duty Now for the Future, America woke from it's long nightmare and we regained our dignity.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d4/Devo-DutyNowUK.jpg/220px-Devo-DutyNowUK.jpg

Don't get me wrong, I like Devo too.

[Williamsmith]

This is how I remember the death of disco.........I am proud of baseball for being the venue that killed off the Bee Gees.


http://youtu.be/I1CP1751wJA

[Ultralight]

This is how I remember the death of disco.........I am proud of baseball for being the venue that killed off the Bee Gees.


http://youtu.be/I1CP1751wJA


Incredibly sad day for America.

[LDAHL]

This is how I remember the death of disco.........I am proud of baseball for being the venue that killed off the Bee Gees.


http://youtu.be/I1CP1751wJA

One of my brothers was there that night that Steve Dahl came out in his Patton outfit and blew up all that vinyl. The Sox had to forfeit the second game of a double header when they rioted.

[Ultralight]

Really? So when you hear a Donna Summer song, do your feet not feel inspiration to move? Does your heart not sync up to that four-on-the-floor disco beat?

When you hear some Parliament or some Dan Hartman or some Chic, don't you just feel yourself loosen up?

Doesn't KC and The Sunshine Band make you just feel good inside?

Are you all not human?! lol

[LDAHL]

Really? So when you hear a Donna Summer song, do your feet not feel inspiration to move?


No, my stomach feels inspiration to move.

[Ultralight]

No, my stomach feels inspiration to move.

LOL!

[LDAHL]

LOL!

It wasn't funny. Shiny shirts, white people with afros, triple-distilled narcissism, platform shoes, hippies gradually transitioning into yuppies. It was a vulgar and vile spectacle. I can't prove it, but I think the the whole thing was started by Soviet agents to drain our vital essence.