Who's to Blame for Trump

[LDAHL]

I liked Meghan McArdle's take on the genesis of Trump.

http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-23/don-t-blame-the-republican-party-for-the-rise-of-trump

She dismisses some of the more common explanations (all-powerful Fox News, Obama Derangement Syndrome, general Republican evil) in favor more nuanced thinking.

[Ultralight]

I am waiting for your opinion, LDAHL.

I am also waiting to hear from Jane, Peggy, Williamsmith, and bae:cool:.

[catherine]

My husband shared this NY Magazine article: very interesting. Seems that, according to Plato, we're ripe for a tyrant.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-trump.html

The problem is too much democracy: Seems the Rise of Trump can be directly connected to the natural evolution of it.

[LDAHL]

I am waiting for your opinion, LDAHL.



My opinion is that Trump (and Sanders) are "populists" of a type that periodically surfaces in American politics, often to take advantage of difficult times. They assure us that the "game is rigged" by bankers or crafty foreigners or some other focus of frustration, and offer their own virtuous selves as the solution. They offer simple solutions to complex problems, and a promise of vengeance against imagined tormentors.

[Ultralight]

My opinion is that Trump (and Sanders) are "populists" of a type that periodically surfaces in American politics, often to take advantage of difficult times. They assure us that the "game is rigged" by bankers or crafty foreigners or some other focus of frustration, and offer their own virtuous selves as the solution. They offer simple solutions to complex problems, and a promise of vengeance against imagined tormentors.

Called it! :)

[pinkytoe]

addled, distracted, and self-indulgent citizens
This bit from the NYer article sounds right on target.

[peggy]

My opinion is that Trump (and Sanders) are "populists" of a type that periodically surfaces in American politics, often to take advantage of difficult times. They assure us that the "game is rigged" by bankers or crafty foreigners or some other focus of frustration, and offer their own virtuous selves as the solution. They offer simple solutions to complex problems, and a promise of vengeance against imagined tormentors.

I pretty much agree with this. But we can't just discount Fox, Rush, Glenn, etc...as 'the usual suspects' (nudge nudge wink wink)
They are to blame as much as anything else. The hateful rhetoric,
the armed 'opposition' at Obama's, or any democratic's political rally, (armed actually, with real guns!)
The 'lock and load/second amendment solution,
Congress inviting a foreign head of state to address congress to embarrass and diss our own President, in our own backyard!
Yelling 'you lie' at the State of the Union address
Members of congress drafting a letter to our supposed enemy telling them to NOT negotiate with our President! That his word wasn't good!
Shutting down the government to the tune of several billions to force defunding of a very necessary non profit over a FAKE scandal/meme that was proved to be fake.
Conducting 8 investigations into, and falsifying documents to frame Hillary while Bush just giggles over not finding WMD's under his desk.
The senate refusing to DO THEIR JOB as far as the Supreme court goes.
Declaring on day one of Obama's Presidency that they will not lift a finger, help or aid him in any way what so ever to move this country forward or do any work for the American people because they hate Obama sooo much...so, let the country burn to the ground, we don't care.

I could go on and on. And this isn't just a state of mind. There is proof of each and every thing I posted, + Hell, most the time they bragged about their obstruction!

Perhaps these 'populists' do appear occasionally, but this republican climate has given him aid and comfort, and legitimacy.
I'm not sure why republicans are acting so surprised. Trump is the sum total of who they are.

[Ultralight]

I am old school, I know. But I still think that a large part of Trump happening is the failure of GOP policies in the past few decades.

[LDAHL]

I pretty much agree with this. But we can't just discount Fox, Rush, Glenn, etc...as 'the usual suspects' (nudge nudge wink wink)
They are to blame as much as anything else. The hateful rhetoric,
the armed 'opposition' at Obama's, or any democratic's political rally, (armed actually, with real guns!)
The 'lock and load/second amendment solution,
Congress inviting a foreign head of state to address congress to embarrass and diss our own President, in our own backyard!
Yelling 'you lie' at the State of the Union address
Members of congress drafting a letter to our supposed enemy telling them to NOT negotiate with our President! That his word wasn't good!
Shutting down the government to the tune of several billions to force defunding of a very necessary non profit over a FAKE scandal/meme that was proved to be fake.
Conducting 8 investigations into, and falsifying documents to frame Hillary while Bush just giggles over not finding WMD's under his desk.
The senate refusing to DO THEIR JOB as far as the Supreme court goes.
Declaring on day one of Obama's Presidency that they will not lift a finger, help or aid him in any way what so ever to move this country forward or do any work for the American people because they hate Obama sooo much...so, let the country burn to the ground, we don't care.

I could go on and on. And this isn't just a state of mind. There is proof of each and every thing I posted, + Hell, most the time they bragged about their obstruction!

Perhaps these 'populists' do appear occasionally, but this republican climate has given him aid and comfort, and legitimacy.
I'm not sure why republicans are acting so surprised. Trump is the sum total of who they are.

Like McArdle, I don't buy the "they created the environment that created Trump" argument; largely for the reasons she gives.

Nor do I buy the similar argument sometimes heard on both the left and right that Trump is the product of a condescending liberal elite that insisted so stridently that the white working class was the ignorant villain of every piece so often that Trump was able to use the resulting resentment against "political correctness". I don't accept the argument in "The Smug Style in American Liberalism" that "The wages of smug is Trump".

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberalism

We like to relieve ourselves of responsibility for certain outcomes by blaming the influence of political or media players when in fact those players are striving mighily to give us what we say we want.

[Alan]

I am old school, I know. But I still think that a large part of Trump happening is the failure of GOP policies in the past few decades.I disagree. It seems to me that there have been no GOP policies during this period, at least for the past 10 years. Every good policy has been watered down by career GOP politicians hoping to garner faint praise in the media. Of course this never happens because in the media, as well as in Peggy's world,,, Damned Republicans!

When the President says 'Give me what I want' in the budget and threatens to veto anything less, the GOP is blamed for trying to shut down the government, although that's only true if you believe that the President is an Emperor, ruling by divine right, and the House of Representatives is simply an oppositional cartel rather than representatives of the people.

We seem to have a surplus of Emperor's in waiting this time around, and oddly enough, people seem to like it.

[Ultralight]

If I was a Repub I would not want to accept the lion's share of the blame for Trump either. I'd want to blame it on all sorts of other things, and then eventually I'd want the blame to fall on so many different things that no one could really say that the blame fell on anything much.

So yeah, I get it. haha

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think non-stop media coverage is a great deal to blame. It's the elephant in the room, it can't be avoided. Now of course all this is unprovable (what do you do find people who lived under a rock for the past year and ask them if they think a Trump presidency is a good idea?). Nuance, all may sound very sophisticated but that doesn't make it science or even social science, and I'm not sure how you would even begin to start. Although I actually really like the concluding paragraph, that we often to get results the majority does not want very much.

[LDAHL]

If I was a Repub I would not want to accept the lion's share of the blame for Trump either. I'd want to blame it on all sorts of other things, and then eventually I'd want the blame to fall on so many different things that no one could really say that the blame fell on anything much.

So yeah, I get it. haha

I think that's the attraction of scapegoats. They make things simpler and more comfortable for the rest of us.

[Ultralight]

I think adding a ton of murk to the blame is a form of scapegoating.

Sometimes a goat is justifiably scaped.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I've been reading over these replies and I've realized a few things. I'm jealous of some of the posters here and there is no snark in what I'm about to say. I'm jealous of the wide angle view so many have here in regards to politics - even of people I don't agree with.

Politics for me has always been who is most likely not to mess with my getting to another day - who might make things slightly less difficult or at least not add to the burden of this citizenship. In short, it's about survival. I can see for people not in this mode or not close to it how this thinking could come across as narrow.

Politics for me is don't mess with my access to the Mexican border and don't mess with Medicaid for those who qualify under the ACA. Politics for me is mostly cynical and survival based - but then sometimes even I'm surprised in a good way.

I just read in the NYC at the library that the leader of the Army is now an openly gay man and wow, gotta say I'm amazed at this progress. So I guess my point is that there is more to politics than voting for continued easy access to Mexican health care and voting for Medicaid for over one million Arizona's now covered. Who would have thought lol? Rob

Came back to edit.....that should have been I was reading the New York Times at the public library.

[catherine]

Politics for me has always been who is most likely not to mess with my getting to another day - who might make things slightly less difficult or at least not add to the burden of this citizenship. In short, it's about survival.

I'm a bit surprised by this train of thought. I'm not surprised that a huge number of people have the same view of the function of politics, and maybe I shouldn't be surprised that you feel that way, Rob, but I am, because you seem to be a very giving, thoughtful person, not narrow or selfish as your frank admission would seem to suggest.

I look at government as ideally being (not as it is, mind you) as functioning like a family--you give and you take. You are the recipient of the benefits of citizenship and you expect to contribute in some way. JFK: "Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"--it's been a long time since we have been exhorted to be selfless.

Politics is also like a car that should get all of the riders to the intended destination. But sometimes the car needs a serious tune-up. Sometimes some members have to get out and push while others sit and steer. The gas line is clogged. I think Trump and Sanders supporters feel that they have been pushing for a while. If they're angry and frustrated, it's at the car first for breaking down, and then maybe at the people who are sitting and steering without offering to share the burden.

So they are not wanting vengeance, they are just tired, and they want someone to just fix the car and unclog the gas line so they can get back in and drive away. Trump and Sanders are the one saying: Come on people! Let's get this thing fixed instead of limping along!

[Williamsmith]

Who? Well, Alan Greenspan laid the foundation and Ben Bernanke has doubled down. The 2008 bailout is largely responsible. And nothing has changed. Had we just let them all go under, our limp would have healed by now.

[LDAHL]

Politics is also like a car that should get all of the riders to the intended destination.

But what if the riders have 350,000,000 different destinations in mind? I know a certain stripe of politician likes to accuse opponents of being "on the wrong side of history", but who really has the kind of wisdom to make that particular call?

[Ultralight]

Who? Well, Alan Greenspan laid the foundation and Ben Bernanke has doubled down. The 2008 bailout is largely responsible. And nothing has changed. Had we just let them all go under, our limp would have healed by now.

Amongst my liberal lefto friends I was the only one that said let the big banks and the big businesses fail.

[razz]

Do you agree that there is hatred? Who is it directed against? What would neutralize it?

From the NY article:
"But the most powerful engine for such a movement — the thing that gets it off the ground, shapes and solidifies and entrenches it — is always the evocation of hatred. It is, as Hoffer put it, “the most accessible and comprehensive of all unifying elements.” And so Trump launched his campaign by calling undocumented Mexican immigrants a population largely of rapists and murderers. He moved on to Muslims, both at home and abroad. He has now added to these enemies — with sly brilliance — the Republican Establishment itself. And what makes Trump uniquely dangerous in the history of American politics — with far broader national appeal than, say, Huey Long or George Wallace — is his response to all three enemies. It’s the threat of blunt coercion and dominance.

[LDAHL]

Do you agree that there is hatred? Who is it directed against? What would neutralize it?

From the NY article:
"But the most powerful engine for such a movement — the thing that gets it off the ground, shapes and solidifies and entrenches it — is always the evocation of hatred. It is, as Hoffer put it, “the most accessible and comprehensive of all unifying elements.” And so Trump launched his campaign by calling undocumented Mexican immigrants a population largely of rapists and murderers. He moved on to Muslims, both at home and abroad. He has now added to these enemies — with sly brilliance — the Republican Establishment itself. And what makes Trump uniquely dangerous in the history of American politics — with far broader national appeal than, say, Huey Long or George Wallace — is his response to all three enemies. It’s the threat of blunt coercion and dominance.

I think there is (and probably always has been) large quantities of hate circulating in American (and everybody else's) politics. It's one of the primary colors (shaded with fear, resentment and condescension) of human interaction, and not just for Trump. We see it directed against the undeserving rich, bitter clingers, nefarious foreigners, various generic percentages, people who share the President's views on marriage circa 2008, profit-making institutions, special snowflakes and cis-gendered old white male capitalist patriarchs. It makes us feel better about ourselves to hate haters.

It's more visible at some times than at others, but it's always there. Certain climates and leaders are better for summoning the better angels of our nature than others; but we seem to be in a relatively ignoble period. I don't think Trump is in any way historically unique or dangerous in that respect. I don't know how you go about neutralizing it at a political level.

[Ultralight]

I thought I would revive this thread. The Wise One has his thoughts on this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2lsEVlqts0

[Williamsmith]

I agree with him on two points, Obama is a terrorist and free trade agreements have nothing to do with free trade.