Tragedy at the zoo [Archive] - Simple Living Forums

catherine

5-29-16, 1:47pm

Wow. The gorilla didn't look threatening--he almost looked protective of the boy. I understand that the zoo had to take what the considered to be the safest approach for the child, but to your point, what a senseless tragedy.

Zoos are certainly controversial these days. I know Steve Irwin felt that zoos help people to know, understand and respect animals. But the animals are certainly exploited nonetheless. Millions of animals exist in cruel and inhumane feeding lots. The fact is, we don't respect animals as living, sentient creatures. As long as we can satisfy our palate without breaking the bank we don't care how they're treated.

I love your post, Alan, but it reminds me that somehow when we egoistical humans give an animal a name, it's an abomination to kill it. Reminds me of the Cecil the Lion episode. One animal with a cute hame and we are all up in arms. Maybe our steaks should come with names: "Bessie--2010-2016, $14.99/lb"

bae

5-29-16, 2:11pm

Given the relative rareness of the two species, perhaps they should have....

catherine

5-29-16, 3:10pm

Given the relative rareness of the two species, perhaps they should have....

A Modest Proposal?

A comment on FB in response to this event:
"oh, let's kill the endangered jailed animal because the spawn of a dangerous invasive species wasn't paying attention. was mom and dad on the phone again?"

Teacher Terry

5-29-16, 3:22pm

It is so very sad that an animal gets killed because a person can't watch their kid.

freshstart

5-29-16, 4:30pm

I watched, "mommy loves you" shouted has an awful ring to it when you know the ending. PETA will probably be all up in this. Has anyone said how the kid got down there?

bae

5-29-16, 6:17pm

A Modest Proposal?

A comment on FB in response to this event:
"oh, let's kill the endangered jailed animal because the spawn of a dangerous invasive species wasn't paying attention. was mom and dad on the phone again?"

One of my many hobbies is tracking poachers in Africa. I have perhaps a different outlook on the relative value of human life than some... :-)

Aqua Blue

5-30-16, 8:54am

1+ on the "it is a shame when an animal gets killed because people don't watch their kids.

CathyA

5-30-16, 11:20am

I read somewhere that it was a mom who had taken her 2 kids to the zoo, along with 4 that weren't hers. I suppose this wouldn't have happened though, if the zoo didn't have a weak spot in their enclosure. It was just the perfect storm, so-to-speak.
I guess a tranquiler could have taken 5-10 minutes to work, and could have angered the gorilla. I heard there was a similar situation like this somewhere else in the past, and the person died in those 5-10 minutes after the tranquilizer was used.
For me, the bottom line is ....get rid of zoos.

bae

5-30-16, 11:26am

For me, the bottom line is ....get rid of zoos.

Zoos perform an essential role in species preservation and conservation.

Williamsmith

5-30-16, 12:49pm

I am celebrating with the parents of the child. He lives to make a difference some other day. Unfortunate about the gorilla.

pinkytoe

5-30-16, 3:05pm

I think zoos as they exist need to be rethought. Perhaps it makes more sense to have humans transported in a protective cage through a preserve or much larger area than animals are normally allowed in a zoo. That way the humans would be able to view safely and the animals might have a slightly more dignified life. Or in other words, put the humans in a cage and not the animals. The mother of the boy will be taunted for months for her inattentiveness. Yes, little boys can be devils but no excuse.

Aqua Blue

5-30-16, 3:28pm

The parent should be charged with child endangerment and neglect. At the VERY least they should be followed by cps for 18-24 monthes. One adult who takes 6 unruly kids alone isn't very responsible IMHO. RIP to the poor gorilla.

Teacher Terry

5-30-16, 3:49pm

As a former CPS SW I totally agree. She should pull her head out of her butt and think before doing stuff.

rosarugosa

5-30-16, 5:26pm

Visitors should have to sign some kind of waiver when buying tickets to the zoo. The kid was in the gorilla's habitat; it wasn't like the gorilla broke out and was attacking the child near the snack bar or something. Then the zoo could have acted in the best interests of their charge (the gorilla) without fear of a lawsuit. If the kid lived to see another day, that would be a lucky break.

Teacher Terry

5-30-16, 5:40pm

There was no choice likely to have a good outcome for both the child and gorilla. Again, the parents need to be charged and maybe people will be more careful.

Williamsmith

5-30-16, 7:08pm

There was no choice likely to have a good outcome for both the child and gorilla. Again, the parents need to be charged and maybe people will be more careful.

You guys are welcome to your opinions but I disagree. The zoo is COMPLETELY at risk in this scenario. What kind of gorilla exhibit can be accessed by a four year old? An exhibit like this should be impenetrable by adults let alone a child, for the safety of both sides. To have a facility that is not is probably a violation of whatever standards rule zoos. The zoo management is the cause of this gorillas death. I think the mother actually has a case against the zoo for the injuries and the mental trauma, just watch.

Teacher Terry

5-30-16, 7:35pm

Anyone can sue and win for stupid shit all the time. Like the woman that sued Mcdonalds and won over spilling hot coffee on herself!thumbsup!

catherine

5-30-16, 7:46pm

Anyone can sue and win for stupid shit all the time. Like the woman that sued Mcdonalds and won over spilling hot coffee on herself!thumbsup!

Actually, she had a good case and she deserved to win. My husband worked on a video for a local legal firm. We originally thought it was a frivolous lawsuit, but we came to understand that it was not. Here's some of the facts:

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

ToomuchStuff

5-31-16, 1:44am

Zoos perform an essential role in species preservation and conservation.

This popped into my head when I first read this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIZ04AGTjHc

The stories listed in that story, seem conflicted as to the gorilla's actions. As someone who wasn't there, I can't say if the gorilla was protective, protective but treating the child as a gorilla (we are weaker), or since there were listed some females around, getting ready for some kind of dominance alpha fight. I am going to have to trust the judgement of those who have more closely watched this particular animal, and know its temperament.

freshstart

5-31-16, 3:38am

their is a great Netflix doc about the McDonald's case, called Hot Coffee. That woman suffered

Miss Cellane

5-31-16, 6:38am

their is a great Netflix doc about the McDonald's case, called Hot Coffee. That woman suffered

And she originally just asked McDonald's for about $20,000, to cover her medical costs for the 3rd degree burns. McDonald's countered with $800.

CathyA

5-31-16, 8:37am

TooMuchStuff..........I have been thinking of that Twilight Zone episode too!

Bae......I really don't think most zoos are for the preservation of endangered animals. If we were really serious about that, we would have large preserves for them that very few people were allowed on to.
It's mankind's treatment of and lack of respect for animals that has led to their decline.........and many zoos are taking part in that exploitation, under the guise of "protection". Mankind has to stop thinking his needs are all that matters.
I would be all for true protected preserves........but zoos aren't that.

LDAHL

5-31-16, 8:46am

One of my many hobbies is tracking poachers in Africa.

How do you do that?

jp1

5-31-16, 10:44am

Anyone can sue and win for stupid shit all the time. Like the woman that sued Mcdonalds and won over spilling hot coffee on herself!thumbsup!

To be fair to the McDonalds woman, McDonalds required franchises to heat the coffee to excessively hot temperatures (180-190 degrees)*, substantially hotter than is necessary for enjoyment. And at 190 degrees it takes only 2-3 seconds of contact to get a third degree burn. To give someone in a car a drink that hot and then be surprised when she spills it on herself and gets serious burns was deemed to be an act of negligence on McDonald's part.

And in further fairness to the woman, she originally only asked McDonalds for the cost of her medical bills plus a couple thousand dollars of lost wages for her daughter who took care of her during/immediately after her hospital stay, $20,000. McDonalds countered with $800 which prompted the lawsuit.

*From wikipedia: "McDonald's claimed that the reason for serving such hot coffee in its drive-through windows was that those who purchased the coffee typically were commuters who wanted to drive a distance with the coffee; the high initial temperature would keep the coffee hot during the trip.[2] However, the company's own research showed that some customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

I see that others have also responded. Perhaps I should have read through the whole thread first, but honestly, this case is one of those soundbites that sounds great "McDonalds customer spills coffee on self and sues restaurant for thousands and thousands of dollars. Our legal system is CRAZY!". But it's just not true and makes my blood boil almost as hot as a cup of McDonald's coffee when I see it repeated. The woman suffered serious injuries attempting to use the product as intended.

margene

6-1-16, 10:02am

I do think this was a hard call on the zoo's part. But CathA I agree with you about zoos. It's a enslavement. Animals are just here for our pleasure. I think I'm gonna look into what I can do to make them a thing of the past.

Ultralight

6-1-16, 10:19am

I too am ethically opposed to zoos.

LDAHL

6-1-16, 10:46am

I'm a member of our local zoological society, and our family probably visits about a half dozen times or so each year. I have no particular problem with zoos as an institution. I eat meat, so I have no particular problem with slaughterhouses either. Just my way of thinking.

It's always interesting how people rush to imprint their own perspective and values on extreme situations like this. Mother-shaming, animal rights advocacy, and the belief that any bad situation must have some party at fault who must be held accountable as if random bad luck didn't exist. I've heard people actually say that it was a mistake to value the child's life over the animal's. Me, I'd hunt gorillas to extinction if it meant saving my daughter.

bae

6-1-16, 10:56am

How do you do that?

Very carefully.

LDAHL

6-1-16, 1:48pm

Very carefully.
I would think so. What do you do when you catch them?

CathyA

6-1-16, 4:44pm

bae

6-1-16, 5:14pm

I would think so. What do you do when you catch them?

That is entirely up to the law enforcement folks in the group, I'm just along for the practice. Given the penalties for poaching in most areas, it generally doesn't end well for the poachers...

iris lilies

6-1-16, 5:18pm

That is entirely up to the law enforcement folks in the group, I'm just along for the practice. Given the penalties for poaching in most areas, it generally doesn't end well for the poachers...
What are they poachng? Protected species?

Teacher Terry

6-1-16, 5:25pm

that was really interesting about the hot coffee lawsuit. I had never heard the whole story. It is especially crappy that they knew it was too hot and still kept serving it.

iris lilies

6-1-16, 5:35pm

One thing I've learned is that their fence around the primate enclosure was only 3' high, and then there were 4' of bushes, then the drop off into the moat.

The fences around the lions/tigers is something like 16'. I don't see why 3' is considered high enough.....especially when it looked like a fence that could easily be climbed.
Also on the news it said that in talking with a person standing nearby, the son was arguing with the mom about wanting to climb into there...she kept saying no, and the child kept saying yes.
I guess the child won.
But seriously.......their fence needs to be able to keep anyone out. The perfect storm.

while I dont disagree with you on the fence size as too small, It seems that some small boys, in the age range of 3-5 are able to focus so exclusvely on dangerous choices that it really is impossible on a practical level to keep them safe.

Im sure this will cause a round of fence upgrades at zoos and recreational places. Yay.:0!

All of those stories about 3 years olds who get up in the middle of the night to drive their parents' car, or wander off on the hghway to buy french fries, or climb up 3 pieces of furniture to get a gun and load it from another high up cupboard--those are some seriously focused adventurers.

Lainey

6-1-16, 7:51pm

. . . It's always interesting how people rush to imprint their own perspective and values on extreme situations like this. Mother-shaming, animal rights advocacy, and the belief that any bad situation must have some party at fault who must be held accountable as if random bad luck didn't exist. I've heard people actually say that it was a mistake to value the child's life over the animal's. Me, I'd hunt gorillas to extinction if it meant saving my daughter.

LDAHL, we agree completely on this one.

bae

6-1-16, 8:41pm

What are they poachng? Protected species?

Ayup. Apparently there's quite a market for exotic animal parts. If you could make many years' salary by poaching one critter, you might be motivated to risk death to do so, especially if your other option was watching your family starve.

Africa isn't a Disney place :-(

catherine

6-1-16, 10:17pm

I eat meat, so I have no particular problem with slaughterhouses either. Just my way of thinking.

I don't have a problem with the slaughterhouse, either. That's the best part of the sad life of animals living in horrific conditions BEFORE they get to the slaughterhouse.

...any bad situation must have some party at fault who must be held accountable as if random bad luck didn't exist.

I agree--sh*t happens, and sometimes I can't help but feel really bad about it.

Me, I'd hunt gorillas to extinction if it meant saving my daughter.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is about reverence for all life. Reverence for the life of the child who was saved; reverence for the life of the gorilla who was sacrificed. Reverence for animals who wind up on our plate, and reverence for the animals in $2 hamburgers we grab at the drive-thru and then mindlessly consume in our car on our way to work.

And poachers who illegally kill sentient creatures for tusks or fins or pelts suffer from a callous (dare I say evil) disregard for life.

Of course I would save my child over the life of an animal, but my take on this is that I am happy for the child and very, very sad for the gorilla.

And for the record, I believe that the zoo made the right decision, especially based on this, by a woman who has worked extensively with gorillas (scroll down to the 5/30 9:25 post):

https://www.facebook.com/amanda.odonoughue?fref=nf&pnref=story

iris lilies

6-2-16, 6:37am

Ayup. Apparently there's quite a market for exotic animal parts. If you could make many years' salary by poaching one critter, you might be motivated to risk death to do so, especially if your other option was watching your family starve.

Africa isn't a Disney place :-(
Sorry, I,didnt rmember that you said "Africa" and couldnt figure out what poachng means in the state of Washngton.

bae

6-2-16, 10:15am

Sorry, I,didnt rmember that you said "Africa" and couldnt figure out what poachng means in the state of Washngton.

In WA it's more like this:

https://craiggav.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/eggsoutofwater.jpg

(To be fair, we do have a lot of folks here who fish/hunt out-of-season/illegally.)

ToomuchStuff

6-2-16, 10:24am

Bae,

The whole fishing and hunting out of season thing; is it looked at like other places where they are doing it to feed themselves and others?

Also I read in this thread about blame, and honestly if the blame lies anywhere, it is with the kid, who went against the rules of his parent and the zoo. If people weren't around the kid could have easily won a Darwin award.

Williamsmith

6-10-16, 8:49am

Officials decline to bring any charges. I guess we are all done mourning the death of an ape.

So where are all the people who wanted the mother charged with something? And if the zoo was properly designed why did they go and add additional barriers after the fact?

Ultralight

6-10-16, 8:55am

I guess we are all done mourning the death of an ape.

No, I am still saddened by it.

sylvia

6-11-16, 12:12am

I had an adhd child and when he was that age of 4 I did not take him anywhere especially the zoo, because the one time he almost fell into moat in the elephant exhibit at Brookfiled zoo outside of Chicago. How can you put a bench four feet from the edge of the moat and a lousy wooden decorative fence in between. So I personally think it was the zoos fault and the parents fault and Not the poor Gorilla's fault. They should shut these zoos down and put these gorillas in huge island like in Jurassic park and let them live in peace.

bae

6-11-16, 12:22am

No, I am still saddened by it.

I'm saddened more by wholesale habitat destruction and hunting/poaching that makes the continued survival of one of our cousin great ape species questionable than I am by a zoo incident. There are only a few hundred mountain gorillas, a few thousand Eastern lowland gorillas, and about 100k Western mountain gorillas surviving in the wild on this planet. I think there might be a few hundred river gorillas still alive.

Be nice if we could leave them some space.

sylvia

6-11-16, 11:17am

bae

6-11-16, 12:22pm

These poachers see money in poaching they most do it to support their families, so why cant conservationists and zoos work with these communities to create jobs or some sustainable livelihood. Attack the cause.

Conservationists *do* work in those communities to create sustainable economic situations - in areas where poaching is controlled and the wildlife resource managed for the benefit of all, things improve.

However, the issues of poverty, corruption, organized crime, governmental failure, and other fun things are too large and complex in Africa to be solved by the actions of a few zoos and conservationists.

Here's a thoughtful look at the situation:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/africa-wild/2014/may/05/war-on-poaching-cannot-be-won-unless-we-take-on-corruption

Teacher Terry

6-11-16, 6:55pm

Raising our kids between Milwaukee and Chicago we had access to 3 big, great zoos. We always took our kids multiple times a year. However, when little they either were in a stroller, carried or holding an adult's hand. The kid was too small for it to be his fault. It was the parents fault and they were both there. I have seen kids on leashes and I think that is a great idea if you can't control a kid.