View Full Version : Colorado will have single payer health care on ballot
iris lilies
5-31-16, 4:09pm
What do you Coloradoians think of this? Thanks to Ldahl for pointing this out.
pinkytoe is moving there, what say you?
Whle I am not a fan of the desert and mountains and all of the trees in that state,
I could spend a couple of summers there to get my health care costs down to 3.37% of my income. That would be pretty sweet.
Employers will be carrying the lion's share of the cost at over 6%.
Teacher Terry
5-31-16, 4:21pm
ZG lives in Colo. I love that state-it is so beautiful! What's not to love?
Not to mention legal cannabis for whatever ails you that modern medicine can't fix.
Jane, well-known weed spokesperson...
I will have to read up more on it before I make any judgement. I imagine that the existing health care industry will fight it all the way.
I signed a petition to have it put on the ballot. It is a similar argument to Bernie's plan. There will be a large payroll tax increase to pay for things and the promise is that in the long run people will save money by not having employer paid insurance, private insurance, or insurance under Affordable Care, which would be replaced. Far as I can tell from what little I've read, the coverage will be excellent with little out of pocket expense. There is a lot left to study and the ad campaigns from the health care industry will probably be brutal. It might be too big of a change for people to understand or willing to take, and I'm not giving it a lot of hope to pass. A good thing to get people thinking, though. I'm not certain where I stand yet and need more information. I like the concept, but maybe not the details. NPR did a short feature on it. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/12/19/458688605/coloradans-will-put-single-payer-health-care-to-a-vote
Williamsmith
5-31-16, 7:18pm
So let's just get hypothetical here......say I'm a middle aged retired state employee and as a part of my pension I received a healthcare package. Does that remain in effect, do I get to keep it? In other words, is the State's word by contract binding or can they say....the people have spoken and they don't care about your contract.
WS, you raised a similar question to mine, and I'm not sure of the answer. Far as I can tell, it's not covered in the basic description. As a retired person with some healthcare benefits, the dilemma is similar to mine. Since I have already "paid" for healthcare insurance through servitude with my employer, once the plan takes effect, would I then be taxed on my income to pay for healthcare again or receive less valuable coverage? But as I understand it, there would be no choices. All healthcare in the state would be through the new single payer system that would replace any existing "contracts".
iris lilies
5-31-16, 8:30pm
So let's just get hypothetical here......say I'm a middle aged retired state employee and as a part of my pension I received a healthcare package. Does that remain in effect, do I get to keep it? In other words, is the State's word by contract binding or can they say....the people have spoken and they don't care about your contract.
I don't know. judges? Does the Colorado health care proposal superceed WS's state worker agreement?
Williamsmith
5-31-16, 8:48pm
WS, you raised a similar question to mine, and I'm not sure of the answer. Far as I can tell, it's not covered in the basic description. As a retired person with some healthcare benefits, the dilemma is similar to mine. Since I have already "paid" for healthcare insurance through servitude with my employer, once the plan takes effect, would I then be taxed on my income to pay for healthcare again or receive less valuable coverage? But as I understand it, there would be no choices. All healthcare in the state would be through the new single payer system that would replace any existing "contracts".
If I may add.....lets say I move to another state. My pension goes with me and so does my healthcare which is in the same agreement. So if I want to keep it.....do I have to become a gypsy?
Or maybe I purchase a rental property in Florida, take legal residence there, keep my healthcare and live in Colorado perhaps half of the year.
what about Colorado residents who are traveling outside the state.......do they have to carry insurance to be covered?
Seems like a beauracratic nightmare to me.
So let's just get hypothetical here......say I'm a middle aged retired state employee and as a part of my pension I received a healthcare package. Does that remain in effect, do I get to keep it? In other words, is the State's word by contract binding or can they say....the people have spoken and they don't care about your contract.
That's an interesting question that I'd like to see settled in one of the states. If history is a guide, I'd expect an outcry of unequal treatment for those who manage to bypass the "official" government approved healthcare benefit. At the very least I'd expect you to be encouraged by the tax code to get with the program lest you pay extra for your 'Cadillac Plan' each April 15th.
While Napoleon assured the farm citizens that all animals are created equal, democratic populism will ensure that no animals are more equal than others, without a steep fine.
Lots of good questions, I am however encouraged that it is going directly to the voters. That is a very good step in all of this. I have been in the situation and know too many people who have major issues getting health insurance, paying even with insurance, and not seeking treatment for medical conditions because it is too expensive and difficult. We do need some work on this, but there are issues with many plans. Right now I have health insurance that is paid for by my employer, the same price as it has been for a couple years, however it has become a high deductible plan. You can get extra money in your HSA account if you take surveys and get preventative health screenings on a schedule, I have some co-workers who are concerned about their privacy with this. Right now one major illness would wreck me and I would be paying it off for years. Who has $2k sitting around when you are basically paying a premium over $300 a month! So I want something, better please, but at least I have it. And now they are covering some basic meds like an asthma inhaler for free. Those have ranged from $5 to $50 up and down through the years.
I would think that health insurance is basically portable like others are, so travel and even part-year residency in another state, I would expect to be covered. You have some great questions that I will have to think about when looking at this. I get a certain stipend for my health insurance so if I had insurance through another means such as a spouse, I could get that stipend in my paycheck. If taxes are paying for a universal health coverage in Colorado I would expect that people who have health insurance coverage would get money back in some way. Honestly I have always been in favor of making health insurance available on some type of sliding scale for those who do not have access to it.
Williamsmith
5-31-16, 9:20pm
Let me tell you, I'd be one pissed off cowboy if I had a pension included healthcare package that disappeared. Sharpen up the pitchforks.
William, I will be looking at that as part of the proposal. I am sure there will be plenty of people with the same concern
Let me tell you, I'd be one pissed off cowboy if I had a pension included healthcare package that disappeared. Sharpen up the pitchforks.
Well...plus your pension and any investment income might indeed be taxed to pay for the plan you had already earned. There are some show stoppers for me, but the details I could root out are vague on these things and the lack of detail is a criticism shared by some of the articles. Even liberal leaders like our governor and a senator are in opposition, but that didn't stop the marijuana bill. It's not like what we have is perfect, either. Medicare seems to remain unchanged for those over 65.
iris lilies
5-31-16, 10:26pm
William, I will be looking at that as part of the proposal. I am sure there will be plenty of people with the same concern
But wouldnt this plan be better in the long run since poor citizens will have health care even if better off citizens like William Smith have to give somethng up? Why does W Smith's concern trump Rob's concern or that of catherine and others who say that the ACA costs are too high?
If this passes as described, Rob could move to nearby CO and he might find the $630 out of his income (3.5% of his annual salary) better than the 8% mandated by our President that he currently pays. This is win for Rob. Maybe it would keep him out of Mexico!. :~)
I'm not sure that W Smith should get a say here since he is not the biggest victim. Do we really care what those who have 'got theirs' so to speak have to say? :devil:
Thank you IL, I am totally for this (okay do need to read it and make sure it isn't stupid like what we thought we were getting with the pot money). This affects my kids, my co-workers, the families who I work with, etc. I could eat and pay student loans which honestly helps everyone in the long run. I have 2 people I know not treating cancer because of health insurance issues, mostly they have something but still can't afford treatments. I could keep telling stories cuz I think and process in stories, but multiply that by a LOT of people, think about how that money could be spent in the overall economy and think about how having good access to early health care prevents more costly treatments.
iris lilies
5-31-16, 11:12pm
Thank you IL, I am totally for this (okay do need to read it and make sure it isn't stupid like what we thought we were getting with the pot money). This affects my kids, my co-workers, the families who I work with, etc. I could eat and pay student loans which honestly helps everyone in the long run. I have 2 people I know not treating cancer because of health insurance issues, mostly they have something but still can't afford treatments. I could keep telling stories cuz I think and process in stories, but multiply that by a LOT of people, think about how that money could be spent in the overall economy and think about how having good access to early health care prevents more costly treatments.
I know! I just wonder about the downside. What could there possibly be?
i am anxious for CO to get this single payer system in since Vermont was unable to bring it and Oregon crapped out on their iniiative. I am very interested in seeing one of 49 states do it to act as a laboratory.
Williamsmith
5-31-16, 11:13pm
So what you are saying, IF you vote for this is........I trust my state government to administrate efficiently and fairly healthcare for everyone but they most recently couldn't even get dope smoking 101 right? Isn't this like playing monopoly and every time you pass GO, you collect $200 and distribute it evenly amongst all the players. In that scenario it is a rush to the bottom, all you need is a shade tree, a guitar and some tequila and a little home grown.
There is actually a lot of weed money, more than they expected. However as voters we needed to be a little smarter about it. It is going to the places we voted for however I would have chosen different if that had been an option. So it is part of building the schools and part of 'healthy lifestyles' grant money for education in schools. At least this grant includes staffing dollars! There are many after school grants that give you great curriculum but you are on your own to pay staff. It is decent, but I thought we were getting more general school money. Then again there are many issues in my district that adding money to won't fix, and I am getting politically active on that stuff.
If there had been any shred of the 'trickle down' theory that had worked I would be thrilled to back off of this. I think we are in more danger of leaving it up to the free market than getting some involvement. I can't afford healthcare that supports the 1% anymore.
Williamsmith
6-1-16, 4:51am
There is actually a lot of weed money, more than they expected. However as voters we needed to be a little smarter about it. It is going to the places we voted for however I would have chosen different if that had been an option. So it is part of building the schools and part of 'healthy lifestyles' grant money for education in schools. At least this grant includes staffing dollars! There are many after school grants that give you great curriculum but you are on your own to pay staff. It is decent, but I thought we were getting more general school money. Then again there are many issues in my district that adding money to won't fix, and I am getting politically active on that stuff.
If there had been any shred of the 'trickle down' theory that had worked I would be thrilled to back off of this. I think we are in more danger of leaving it up to the free market than getting some involvement. I can't afford healthcare that supports the 1% anymore.
Then you must reconcile the differences in a system that excludes people on the basis of their inability to access healthcare based on poverty and a system that excludes people on the basis of beauracratic policy. In other words, if I am too poor to access the healthcare I need, I can do something about it, I can somehow get the resources necessary even if it is only by charity. But if I am refused access to healthcare based on policy, there is no way to get the care I want to pay for because it is a system based on force and violence, no matter what my financial resources are. So in an attempt to be fair, we actually succeed in quashing freedom and liberty exchanging it for oppression.
Let's be clear here, it is not leveling the playing field, it is taking the playing field away and substituting a soup line medical care system. We already have a model single payer healthcare system run by the federal government and it has been an abject failure. It is not called the ACA.......it is that abominable beuraucracy called the Veterans Administration. The so called single payer system is going to be the VA on steroids if it is pursued.
I guess I am not as highly theoretical about this topic, I am not thinking high level freedom and oppression because economic systems can do plenty of that without the government. I see people who in no reasonably way can navigate getting more money and struggle with the charity options. Honestly a lot of private charity, grant funded organizations etc, are strapped for cash. Oh yeah, and a really successful organization for women's health care is under attack over and over again. PP has helped the young women in my life get birth control much easier than a DR and stay healthy. Besides I am tired of seeing donation boxes at every grocery store and food bank donation bins when I know a lot of these hungry kids have working parents (that is a side note). Soup lines are actually private charity in many cases,
The point is that what we have done is not working, now more people have access. People I know first hand did not have access before. Yeah there are problems, but there are benefits. I live and work with lower income people, they are not complaining about having access to the VA as much as it has problems because they see their neighbors and friends with nothing.
Williamsmith
6-1-16, 8:24am
You are right ZG, "trickle down" is not a working economic theory, in fact it does not exist. There is no such thing and never was. It was a political invention, an excuse to explain the way things are. And the way things are is a result of non committal to a system that is designed to maximize everyone's ability to achieve by way of personal freedom and liberty in the form of effort.
Capitalism is the best system to allow this achievement for all free people. Now there is certainly another choice and that is socialism. It has the benefit, if you want to call it that, of achievement of the masses as one hulking blob. Everyone must go in the same direction and they must creep together. There is no freedom and no Liberty.
Now there is the big C word that effects both systems. Corruption. And in the case of both it limits productiveness. But in socialism it has systemic influence over all members of society and cannot be compartmentalized. It spreads rapidly and can bring down an entire nation quickly.
Our current system of healthcare is neither all capitalist nor all socialist. It is a marriage of two systems that are incompatible and untenable. So it is natural we are seeing two visions about how to proceed. Choose freedom and liberty , always choose freedom and liberty.
You are right ZG, "trickle down" is not a working economic theory, in fact it does not exist. There is no such thing and never was. It was a political invention, an excuse to explain the way things are. And the way things are is a result of non committal to a system that is designed to maximize everyone's ability to achieve by way of personal freedom and liberty in the form of effort.
Capitalism is the best system to allow this achievement for all free people. Now there is certainly another choice and that is socialism. It has the benefit, if you want to call it that, of achievement of the masses as one hulking blob. Everyone must go in the same direction and they must creep together. There is no freedom and no Liberty.
Now there is the big C word that effects both systems. Corruption. And in the case of both it limits productiveness. But in socialism it has systemic influence over all members of society and cannot be compartmentalized. It spreads rapidly and can bring down an entire nation quickly.
Our current system of healthcare is neither all capitalist nor all socialist. It is a marriage of two systems that are incompatible and untenable. So it is natural we are seeing two visions about how to proceed. Choose freedom and liberty , always choose freedom and liberty.
Many of our systems are mixture of socialism and capitalism. A totally capitalistic health care system would be interesting - given how it's driven by supply and demand I expect some interesting pricings could be set in the ER for those in need of immediate treatment - of course, they have choice of shopping around in the minutes they have left to live, so I guess that's fair.
Many of our systems are mixture of socialism and capitalism. A totally capitalistic health care system would be interesting - given how it's driven by supply and demand I expect some interesting pricings could be set in the ER for those in need of immediate treatment - of course, they have choice of shopping around in the minutes they have left to live, so I guess that's fair.
"Your firstborn or your life. You choose."
Williamsmith
6-1-16, 1:06pm
Many of our systems are mixture of socialism and capitalism. A totally capitalistic health care system would be interesting - given how it's driven by supply and demand I expect some interesting pricings could be set in the ER for those in need of immediate treatment - of course, they have choice of shopping around in the minutes they have left to live, so I guess that's fair.
If you appear at an emergency room in need of immediate treatment, you are going to be treated. Your scenario is laughable.
Reform is necessary to resolve, waste, fraud, abuse, and lack of investment, but a single payer system is going to require you turning your life completely over to a beauracracy? It is going to be similar to the government student loan program....there is going to be an expected family contribution period. End of discussion.
Anoher scenario. I have a medical insurance plan as part of my pension package. I live in Colorado but my 24 year old son lives in Texas but is still covered by my insurance under the ACA. If Colorado goes to a single payer....does that supersede the ACA? If I lived in Colorado and had an insurance program I valued, I would move to another state to keep it.
gimmethesimplelife
6-1-16, 2:13pm
I find the ballot proposal in Colorado interesting....but after having mostly given up on US health care and offshoring myself to Mexico, I'm not up to speed on the proposal and until I know more I won't post about it. What I do find intetesting is that Colorado is becoming like Massachusetts in it's willingness to engage in social experiments.....Legal recreational marijuana and now an attempt to rein in the fear of US health care. I say two thumbs up to Colorado! But I will still be in Mexicali July 8th as I need to see an ear specialist to get ear wax removed. Since I love and respect myself I will do this in Mexico at a much lower cost. But two thumbs up to Colorado anyway. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-1-16, 2:19pm
But wouldnt this plan be better in the long run since poor citizens will have health care even if better off citizens like William Smith have to give somethng up? Why does W Smith's concern trump Rob's concern or that of catherine and others who say that the ACA costs are too high?
If this passes as described, Rob could move to nearby CO and he might find the $630 out of his income (3.5% of his annual salary) better than the 8% mandated by our President that he currently pays. This is win for Rob. Maybe it would keep him out of Mexico!. :~)
I'm not sure that W Smith should get a say here since he is not the biggest victim. Do we really care what those who have 'got theirs' so to speak have to say? :devil:IL, it's not the premiums that I have issues with. It's the high deductibles and the insane co-pays. Given that Mexico is so close and given that I love and respect myself, why would I pay those deductibles and copays for anything less than a life or death situation? To do so is to work against myself and not for myself. No can do. Rob
iris lilies
6-1-16, 2:39pm
IL, it's not the premiums that I have issues with. It's the high deductibles and the insane co-pays. Given that Mexico is so close and given that I love and respect myself, why would I pay those deductibles and copays for anything less than a life or death situation? To do so is to work against myself and not for myself. No can do. Rob
i dont know which ACA plan you chose but am guessing that you are paying low premiums with high deductibles as a choice. Nothing wrong with that, it seems like a good choice for your situation. Youve got big coverage insurance in place now for sudden serious illness like your multiple weeks of a hospital stay a few years ago. Meanwhile for the smaller stuff you can use Mexican services.
I do have to mention that your hospital stay must have been north of $150,000 and yes, you are welcome! Taxpayers picked up that tab. You may continue to express fear and loathing toward America and we won't try to torque your thoughts because this is America and you can think whatever you like about this country and express it. It is pretty special in that regard.
Williamsmith
6-1-16, 2:51pm
I find the ballot proposal in Colorado interesting....but after having mostly given up on US health care and offshoring myself to Mexico, I'm not up to speed on the proposal and until I know more I won't post about it. What I do find intetesting is that Colorado is becoming like Massachusetts in it's willingness to engage in social experiments.....Legal recreational marijuana and now an attempt to rein in the fear of US health care. I say two thumbs up to Colorado! But I will still be in Mexicali July 8th as I need to see an ear specialist to get ear wax removed. Since I love and respect myself I will do this in Mexico at a much lower cost. But two thumbs up to Colorado anyway. Rob
You pay a doctor to remove earwax? Thats a specialty? Just dig around in there with a Qtip and run some hot water in your ear.........buck up hombre.
You pay a doctor to remove earwax? Thats a specialty? Just dig around in there with a Qtip and run some hot water in your ear.........buck up hombre.
If it gets compacted because of an ear canal misshape it can be very difficult to remove. It happened to me before, several times. I thought for sure I was going deaf the first time. Scared me badly!
Ol' Sawbones took a huge turkey baster-thing, filled it with warm, distilled water, and then squirted it deep and powerfully into my ear canal.
A ball of compacted wax the size of a golf ball came popping out! I became suddenly dizzy and off-balance. Once I regained my composure I could hear again! It felt miraculous!
gimmethesimplelife
6-1-16, 3:10pm
You pay a doctor to remove earwax? Thats a specialty? Just dig around in there with a Qtip and run some hot water in your ear.........buck up hombre.I have very deeply impacted earwax that diminishes my hearing. One of the worst possible things you can do in this situation is using a QTip......it just packs in your earwax even tighter in this situation. Google this if you like but I can tell you from experience that it's true. And I deserve better than US prices to have this addressed. Rob
It's the high deductibles and the insane co-pays.
Can you provide an example of an insane co pay?
And I deserve better than US prices
You speak a lot in terms of what you deserve or are owed. Do you have a corresponding ethical theory as to what your responsibilities are?
You speak a lot in terms of what you deserve or are owed. Do you have a corresponding ethical theory as to what your responsibilities are?
This could get rather interesting!
iris lilies
6-1-16, 3:37pm
You speak a lot in terms of what you deserve or are owed. Do you have a corresponding ethical theory as to what your responsibilities are?
Ive wondered myself hw much Rob is willing to pay for others. To his credit he has offered to pay more in taxes so that others could get more/better healthcare, I'm just not sure how much.
My guess:
If Rob made $60k a year he'd be willing to pay sigificantly through taxes for a single-payer system. He'd probably also expect rich folks to pair their share too, which would be more.
My guess:
If Rob made $60k a year he'd be willing to pay sigificantly through taxes for a single-payer system. He'd probably also expect rich folks to pair their share too, which would be more.
I was thinking more in more general terms of the individual's proper relationship with government, not just in terms of who pays the freight for benefits. The argument over what "their share" means will always be cluttered by the many idiosyncratic versions of what "fair" means.
Is it properly a sort of parent-child relationship? Does it take a village to raise us children? A social contract? Are there "natural laws" both citizen and state are obligated to observe? Simple majority rule, no matter how misguided the majority might be at a given moment?
Are you a better American if you serve in the military? Live a life of service to others? Create jobs? Vote? Raise children to be good people? Dissent where needed?
Everybody probably needs to consider his relationship with his country. Rob just strikes me as rather an extreme case.
Rob just strikes me as rather an extreme case.
Why?
I was thinking more in more general terms of the individual's proper relationship with government, not just in terms of who pays the freight for benefits.
Interesting questions.
I think of government like an Amish Barn raising, for the most part.
Why?
He refers to "America" in terms one might use to speak of an abusive parent. He's hurt, he's frightened, he deserves better. He wants out of the relationship. I've never heard someone relate to their country in quite that way.
He refers to "America" in terms one might use to speak of an abusive parent. He's hurt, he's frightened, he deserves better. He wants out of the relationship. I've never heard someone relate to their country in quite that way.
Ah, okay. I appreciate you clarifying what you meant.
That seems like an accurate assessment based on what Rob posts here.
I agree with him in the sense that the medical industry is price gouging him and the government is enabling them to do so (rather than helping to protect Rob).
But I disagree with Rob about the idea of moving to a third-world nation. Here are my reasons:
1. Compared to most third-world nations, Merka ain't that bad.
2. Moving to a third world country so your dollar goes further makes sense as an individual (and heck, I would probably do it if my health counted on it) but it takes a person of modest-low means in the US and plops them down in a dumpy downtrodden nation where they are dang near suddenly a kingpin and part of a financial elite...at the expense of the poor folks there in the 3rd world nation!
So those third-worlders there could probably legitimately say their government is an abusive parent!
Williamsmith
6-1-16, 4:28pm
He refers to "America" in terms one might use to speak of an abusive parent. He's hurt, he's frightened, he deserves better. He wants out of the relationship. I've never heard someone relate to their country in quite that way.
My guess is if Rob does get his single payer health insurance, he won't like the three to six month waiting period to get his ear wax removed and will go to Mexico anyway because freedom of choice is something everyone values......even socialists and communists.
But I disagree with Rob about the idea of moving to a third-world nation. Here are my reasons:
1. Compared to most third-world nations, Merka ain't that bad.
2. Moving to a third world country so your dollar goes further makes sense as an individual (and heck, I would probably do it if my health counted on it) but it takes a person of modest-low means in the US and plops them down in a dumpy downtrodden nation where they are dang near suddenly a kingpin and part of a financial elite...at the expense of the poor folks there in the 3rd world nation!
One must also consider that in many third world countries the financial elite feels the need to hire bodyguards.
Williamsmith
6-1-16, 4:43pm
Our bodyguards are socialized......taxpayers pay for them.
iris lilies
6-1-16, 5:29pm
Our bodyguards are socialized......taxpayers pay for them.
That is true, and is deep insight into the influence of the huge middle class in this country. Policemen police to keep the taxpayers safe. My gentrified neighborhood has its own dedicated city policeman. We love him!
My guess is if Rob does get his single payer health insurance, he won't like the three to six month waiting period to get his ear wax removed and will go to Mexico anyway because freedom of choice is something everyone values......even socialists and communists.
Yup, Canada has the longest lines in the world! You show up to an emergency room and 14 days later you get to see an LPN or an RN. This is why life expectancy in Canada is 53! It is 76 in the US! Boo-yah! Capitalism, beeeeyotches!
Ive wondered myself hw much Rob is willing to pay for others.
I don't know about others, but I think I know what he is willing to pay for himself, at least what he was willing to pay several years ago. If I remember correctly, he offered to donate several hours per week at an animal shelter in return for full, free medical coverage. I remember because it made me laugh out loud.
Nurses can remove ear wax. I do it at home for my husband. And you can do it yourself with a bulb syringe from the drug store. But you have to be careful. Not too much pressure etc. Warm water with hydrogen peroxide works best.
Nurses can remove ear wax. I do it at home for my husband. And you can do it yourself with a bulb syringe from the drug store. But you have to be careful. Not too much pressure etc. Warm water with hydrogen peroxide works best.
Yup, I got my own turkey baster and DIY that stuff!
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-16, 8:52am
I don't know about others, but I think I know what he is willing to pay for himself, at least what he was willing to pay several years ago. If I remember correctly, he offered to donate several hours per week at an animal shelter in return for full, free medical coverage. I remember because it made me laugh out loud.Donating your time to society when this is all you really have to offer is not a positive thing? I'm sorry, you've lost me here again. Me thinks if you were ever in my situation, you'd understand. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-16, 8:55am
That is true, and is deep insight into the influence of the huge middle class in this country. Policemen police to keep the taxpayers safe. My gentrified neighborhood has its own dedicated city policeman. We love him!Where is this large middle class you speak of? Recent federal statistics show that less than 50 percent of the current US population qualifies for middle class status with more falling out of the middle class every year. Rob
Where is this large middle class you speak of? Recent federal statistics show that less than 50 percent of the current US population qualifies for middle class status with more falling out of the middle class every year. Rob
That is because they are getting RICH! Woooohooo!
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-16, 9:00am
My guess is if Rob does get his single payer health insurance, he won't like the three to six month waiting period to get his ear wax removed and will go to Mexico anyway because freedom of choice is something) everyone values......even socialists and communists.
I probably would go to Mexico anyway for this to be honest. I've lost so much faith in the United States and offshoring is so essy. It seems to be part of the solution and not the problem and a triple win - morallt, ethically and financially it's the best choice for people in my situation. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-16, 9:03am
That is because they are getting RICH! Woooohooo!Not in Arizona at any rate. And I don't care to be rich, either. My wish is that the lower and middle classes did not have to live in fear of a basic human right such as healthcare so that those at the top can become yet more wealthy. This current structure does not work for me. Or anyone else I know that's not on Medicaid in the 85006. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-16, 9:14am
You speak a lot in terms of what you deserve or are owed. Do you have a corresponding ethical theory as to what your responsibilities are?Yes. Don't make basic human rights difficult to access. - in this case health care - earn my loyalty and the loyalty of those in my social class. Given that the US is the only country in the developed world without socialized medicine for all, it would seem that somewhere along the line I never drank the Kool-aid and that I'm not the only person in the developed world expecting socialized medicine in return for loyalty.
Really....what I'm doing here is no different than an employee evaluation in the workplace. I'm just directing the evaluation towards US citizenship is all. I also believe in giving something back. While I was on Medicaid I voluered 8 to 16 hours a week at St. Mary's food bank here....I believe it's only right to give something back if you are taking something out of the system. Not everyone in the 85006 feels this way (especially those with negative experiences with the police that were entirely not their fault) but I was raised Austrian and to give back. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-16, 9:18am
My guess:
If Rob made $60k a year he'd be willing to pay sigificantly through taxes for a single-payer system. He'd probably also expect rich folks to pair their share too, which would be more.Bingo. This is correct. I can't see myself ever making that kind of lofty income, though. But if I did, this would be my take. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-16, 9:23am
He refers to "America" in terms one might use to speak of an abusive parent. He's hurt, he's frightened, he deserves better. He wants out of the relationship. I've never heard someone relate to their country in quite that way.I believe it's the duty of everyone to comparison shop/ evaluate their citizenship on a regular basis, just like you would evaluate any employer. This is something else I was raised to do and I don't believe any country should expect a free pass from their citizens intense scrutiny. I merely state the results of years of comparison shopping US citizenship. Rob
iris lilies
6-2-16, 10:50am
Where is this large middle class you speak of? Recent federal statistics show that less than 50 percent of the current US population qualifies for middle class status with more falling out of the middle class every year. Rob
The general consensus on this board and elsewhere is that the number of "middle class" households are declining and that may be true, but I was thinking more along the lines of middle class household in this country vs in third world countries where law enforcement is handled differently.
ToomuchStuff
6-2-16, 11:04am
There is actually a lot of weed money, more than they expected. However as voters we needed to be a little smarter about it. It is going to the places we voted for however I would have chosen different if that had been an option. So it is part of building the schools and part of 'healthy lifestyles' grant money for education in schools. At least this grant includes staffing dollars! There are many after school grants that give you great curriculum but you are on your own to pay staff. It is decent, but I thought we were getting more general school money.
Sounds like people voted for what they thought was happening, rather then what was said. The older I get, the more cynical I get about language (sometimes I wonder if I am going aspergery). Weed money goies towards education, which means they get to take that amount back out, and into the general fund for whatever else they want, not that the money will stay with weed money being additional.
I agree with him in the sense that the medical industry is price gouging him and the government is enabling them to do so (rather than helping to protect Rob).
But I disagree with Rob about the idea of moving to a third-world nation. Here are my reasons:
1. Compared to most third-world nations, Merka ain't that bad.
2. Moving to a third world country so your dollar goes further makes sense as an individual (and heck, I would probably do it if my health counted on it) but it takes a person of modest-low means in the US and plops them down in a dumpy downtrodden nation where they are dang near suddenly a kingpin and part of a financial elite...at the expense of the poor folks there in the 3rd world nation!
So those third-worlders there could probably legitimately say their government is an abusive parent!
Problems with forced profit medicine. However socialized medicine in this country (VA), has its own share of problems and abuses.
You do realize Mexico is in Merka don't you? So is Canada, Panama, Brazil, etc.
Our bodyguards are socialized......taxpayers pay for them.Most countries political leaders have socialized bodygaurds. In this country, citizens do not and those that do have to pay for them privately, also must worry about relatives who cannot afford them and could be used as a link to them. I won't go into more detail, but your quite off on that.
Yes. Don't make basic human rights difficult to access. - in this case health care - earn my loyalty and the loyalty of those in my social class. Given that the US is the only country in the developed world without socialized medicine for all, it would seem that somewhere along the line I never drank the Kool-aid and that I'm not the only person in the developed world expecting socialized medicine in return for loyalty.
Rob
Love to see what you consider a human rights list. Morally right and a human right don't always conside in my opinion, and while I would consider everyone have medical care access morally right, I would not consider it a human right, nor do I think my morals should be enforced on all, as beliefs differ. If beliefs didn't differ, then other countries would have set up their own constituions in the same venue as ours, verses socialism, communism, etc.
I believe it's the duty of everyone to comparison shop/ evaluate their citizenship on a regular basis, just like you would evaluate any employer. This is something else I was raised to do and I don't believe any country should expect a free pass from their citizens intense scrutiny. I merely state the results of years of comparison shopping US citizenship. Rob
I keep seeing you post and always go back to hearing a Mike and the Mechanics song: Silent Running.
Now part of me wonders if at some point the feds decide to use state run issurance and medical marijuana to charge people at the state level with mass distribution, trafficing and such, and raid the tax base raised because of it, under forfeiture laws.
Yes. Don't make basic human rights difficult to access. - in this case health care - earn my loyalty and the loyalty of those in my social class.
What is the value of loyalty that must be purchased?
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-16, 3:54pm
What is the value of loyalty that must be purchased?I'm of the opinion that such loyalty is worth more than pseudo compliance based on fear. Rob
I'm of the opinion that such loyalty is worth more than pseudo compliance based on fear. Rob
What compliance? What are you afraid of?
Williamsmith
6-5-16, 8:37am
Some of the financial realities of this universal healthcare fiasco ...... What I read is a 7% tax on employers and a 3% tax on employees and for the self employed....they get taxed the entire 10%. And you get to empower a board to raise taxes if necessary to cover burgeoning costs. Voting with your feet will become popular I'm guessing.
Some of the financial realities of this universal healthcare fiasco ...... What I read is a 7% tax on employers and a 3% tax on employees and for the self employed....they get taxed the entire 10%. And you get to empower a board to raise taxes if necessary to cover burgeoning costs. Voting with your feet will become popular I'm guessing.
True. I could see myself moving back to my birthstate of Colorado for my pre-Medicare retirement years if this passes.
Some of the financial realities of this universal healthcare fiasco ...... What I read is a 7% tax on employers and a 3% tax on employees and for the self employed....they get taxed the entire 10%. And you get to empower a board to raise taxes if necessary to cover burgeoning costs. Voting with your feet will become popular I'm guessing.
Minus the need to pay the ever-increasing premiums charged by rapacious insurers, I'm pretty sure we'd come out ahead.
Williamsmith
6-6-16, 8:15am
Minus the need to pay the ever-increasing premiums charged by rapacious insurers, I'm pretty sure we'd come out ahead.
Vermonts failed attempt at single payer healthcare had a scheduled increase in individual taxes of 9%. And 11.5% on businesses. Now when business moves to an adjacent state to avoid these taxes, the burden on the remaining businesses increases creating a domino effect of lost tax revenue. What percentage of your annual income is acceptable to be paying for government run healthcare? Those numbers for Vermont are well above the Social Security and Medicare (FICA) withholding a currently for an employee. It is just plain unrealistic.
Or it wouldn't seem unrealistic, because they wouldn't be paying health insurance for their employees and it would be costing them less. When I was working the cost of my health insurance to my employer was way more than 11.5% of my salary.
It comes down to what does health insurance currently cost the employer, vs. this new tax. The average household income in colorado is just over $61,000. $6,100 for healthcare on average, for a household of 2.5 people doesn't sound like a particularly bad deal to me. My employer provided health insurance, for just me, costs almost $500/month, split roughly the same as the tax split between employer and employee for Colorado's proposed plan. The question will be, are there some employers who pay significantly higher average wages who may consider leaving. I suppose they could just move next door to Kansas. Brownback's drown government in a bathtub leadership has created a vibrant, smashingly successful economy there.
It comes down to what does health insurance currently cost the employer, vs. this new tax. The average household income in colorado is just over $61,000. $6,100 for healthcare on average, for a household of 2.5 people doesn't sound like a particularly bad deal to me. My employer provided health insurance, for just me, costs almost $500/month, split roughly the same as the tax split between employer and employee for Colorado's proposed plan. The question will be, are there some employers who pay significantly higher average wages who may consider leaving. I suppose they could just move next door to Kansas. Brownback's drown government in a bathtub leadership has created a vibrant, smashingly successful economy there.
As I understand it, they wouldn't be relying entirely on the payroll tax. They were also looking to apply Federal subsidies.
Vermonts failed attempt at single payer healthcare had a scheduled increase in individual taxes of 9%. And 11.5% on businesses. Now when business moves to an adjacent state to avoid these taxes, the burden on the remaining businesses increases creating a domino effect of lost tax revenue. What percentage of your annual income is acceptable to be paying for government run healthcare? Those numbers for Vermont are well above the Social Security and Medicare (FICA) withholding a currently for an employee. It is just plain unrealistic.
We're new at this. If we keep trying, we can get it right. We need to look at other countries for such things as tax percentages. We could certainly bring our tax levies back to pre-Reagan levels where they belong. All these pandering tax cuts have been disastrous.
Williamsmith
6-6-16, 12:19pm
We're new at this. If we keep trying, we can get it right. We need to look at other countries for such things as tax percentages. We could certainly bring our tax levies back to pre-Reagan levels where they belong. All these pandering tax cuts have been disastrous.
Im all for raising taxes as long it's not on me.
Why don't we just outsource healthcare to Mexico? Our money seems to go farther there anyway?
Im all for raising taxes as long it's not on me.
Why don't we just outsource healthcare to Mexico? Our money seems to go farther there anyway?
Or to Cuba--they have some of the best-trained doctors in the world, untainted by Pharma reps and avaricious insurers. We could probably fly them in and house them and still be ahead.
As I understand it, they wouldn't be relying entirely on the payroll tax. They were also looking to apply Federal subsidies.
That would make sense since anyone who qualifies for medicaid or ACA subsidies would presumably now be on this plan.
Im all for raising taxes as long it's not on me.
Why don't we just outsource healthcare to Mexico? Our money seems to go farther there anyway?
Absolutely. Just as bits and pieces of my insurance underwriting job can be sent to low wage countries, so too can plenty of bits and pieces of healthcare. A cheap doctor halfway around the world can review an x-ray or ultrasound every bit as well as a pricey US doctor.
Ultralight
6-6-16, 12:38pm
CO ain't gonna get single-payer. No state in the US will ever get it. The US as a whole will never get it.
Most Americans despise themselves for not being rich. Taking the corporate-owned, sub-par, not affordable healthcare is one of the ways they punish themselves for not being rich -- like they should be if they just worked harder or innovated more.
CO ain't gonna get single-payer. No state in the US will ever get it. The US as a whole will never get it.
Most Americans despise themselves for not being rich. Taking the corporate-owned, sub-par, not affordable healthcare is one of the ways they punish themselves for not being rich -- like they should be if they just worked harder or innovated more.
Absolutely! Was it Calvinism that asserted that the rich are anointed by God, and thus deserved their earthly rewards? I see that as the great underlying philosophy of this country. I've heard the ruling class referred to as the "lucky sperm club." Born on third base, most of them.
Americans could do better to know that they are mostly just workin' schlubs. And then vote accordingly.
Americans could do better to know that they are mostly just workin' schlubs. And then vote accordingly.
I don't think you give your countrymen enough credit.
I take a little pride in the refusal to "vote accordingly", and the consternation it causes for those selling the bread and circuses approach to politics.
I don't think you give your countrymen enough credit.
I take a little pride in the refusal to "vote accordingly", and the consternation it causes for those selling the bread and circuses approach to politics.
I think you give Americans too much credit.
What you call "bread and circuses" is called "excellent and affordable healthcare," "reasonable tax structures," "proper and affordable public education K thru PhD" in other countries like Denmark, Norway, and Canada.
I think you give Americans too much credit.
What you call "bread and circuses" is called "excellent and affordable healthcare," "reasonable tax structures," "proper and affordable public education K thru PhD" in other countries like Denmark, Norway, and Canada.
You can favor socialized medicine or not on the merits, but pronouncing most Americans to be self-hating because they aren't rich and flagellating themselves with lousy policy decisions seems a bit preposterous to me.
You can favor socialized medicine or not on the merits, but pronouncing most Americans to be self-hating because they aren't rich and flagellating themselves with lousy policy decisions seems a bit preposterous to me.
Another possibility is that the average American hangs around the figurative docks thinking his ship will come in eventually. It's only a matter of time before he'll be rich too. His small stock portfolio will make him a bundle; he'll win the lottery or the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes; or a lost relative will bestow a fortune on him. In the meantime, he'll practice wealth management by heaping scorn on his perceived lessers and resenting the government for potentially threatening the booty he knows will be his some day. And he'll vote for Trump.
Another possibility is that the average American hangs around the figurative docks thinking his ship will come in eventually. It's only a matter of time before he'll be rich too. His small stock portfolio will make him a bundle; he'll win the lottery or the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes; or a lost relative will bestow a fortune on him. In the meantime, he'll practice wealth management by heaping scorn on his perceived lessers and resenting the government for potentially threatening the booty he knows will be his some day.
Agree.
And he'll vote for Trump.
Slightly disagree. I think he might vote for other Republicans too.
Williamsmith
6-6-16, 3:01pm
The only reason to vote for Trump other than to keep Hillary from her manifest destiny of ruining the country is to ensure that down ballot candidates are not harmed by a refusal to show up at the voting booth for the evermore obnoxious Trumpisms. Giving Hillary a supportive House and Senate would risk the very survival of another four years of this dribble called progressive thinking.
The only reason to vote for Trump other than to keep Hillary from her manifest destiny of ruining the country is to ensure that down ballot candidates are not harmed by a refusal to show up at the voting booth for the evermore obnoxious Trumpisms. Giving Hillary a supportive House and Senate would risk the very survival of another four years of this dribble called progressive thinking.
Most progressives think Billary is rather conservative.
Another possibility is that the average American hangs around the figurative docks thinking his ship will come in eventually. It's only a matter of time before he'll be rich too. His small stock portfolio will make him a bundle; he'll win the lottery or the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes; or a lost relative will bestow a fortune on him. In the meantime, he'll practice wealth management by heaping scorn on his perceived lessers and resenting the government for potentially threatening the booty he knows will be his some day. And he'll vote for Trump.
I guess I challenge the assertion that the average American expects to get rich at some point and lord it over the less fortunate. I think people are generally pretty realistic. Otherwise we'd be a nation of day traders, house flippers and democratic socialists.
That being said, I think there's something to be said for erring toward the optimistic, aspirational view over despair and dependency.
...despair and dependency.
Despair and dependency are not always paired. haha
I live a reasonably independent life, especially as of late, despite the fact that I despair on the daily. lol
gimmethesimplelife
6-6-16, 4:13pm
Im all for raising taxes as long it's not on me.
Why don't we just outsource healthcare to Mexico? Our money seems to go farther there anyway?Honestly? I think you have a good idea here, I really do. I've brought this up before on this board - I wish we would start offshoring non life and death situations - just think of how much money could be saved and how many eyes would be opened up by doing such....will it ever happen? Only for those who take the initiative and offshore themselves for their health care. I really can't see the government admitting that US health care doesn't work well for much of the citizenry. Rob
A flight or two and you have exceeded what your deductible was.
Teacher Terry
6-6-16, 4:21pm
One of the issues with ging out of the country for health care is that I would want to know how good a doc is before using them. Then you have a language barrier. I thought about doing my 33k dental work out of the country but how do you get recourse if they do a lousy job?
gimmethesimplelife
6-6-16, 4:21pm
A flight or two and you have exceeded what your deductible was.Not if you just go to Mexico.....not with my deductible. I guess that's the good news? My health insurance makes offshoring very practical and logical. It's almost like the US WANTS me to offshore, it's practically BEGGING me to do so. Not very wise when health care is one of the fields projected to have a large number of job openings in the future and also projected to make major contributions to the economy.....begging me to offshore equals losing that economic activity. And of course, if I fly out of the US I will do so on a foreign carrier, so that economic contribution is minimized. I guess the system does not take into account people like myself? There's more than just myself that think this way.....Rob
Not if you just go to Mexico.....not with my deductible.
Try flying from North Dakota.
gimmethesimplelife
6-6-16, 4:24pm
One of the issues with ging out of the country for health care is that I would want to know how good a doc is before using them. Then you have a language barrier. I thought about doing my 33k dental work out of the country but how do you get recourse if they do a lousy job?This I believe is where I am lucky in living in a low wage border state. There is so much offshoring of medical and dental going on here that it is not at all hard to get recommendations for good dentists and doctors in Mexico.....it helps to know people in one of the heavily Hispanic neighborhoods and to be on good terms with your neighbors.....got those bases covered. If you want a recommendation for a good dentist, I can PM you the name of where I go in Los Algodones. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-6-16, 4:26pm
Try flying from North Dakota.With my high deductible, I'd still come out ahead.....though I'd try my best to fly out of the largest sort of nearby hub to lower costs.....but I also understand that it's a blessing to be so close to the border as I am and I have an advantage over many as to offshoring. Simple geographic luck that I've made the most of over the years. Rob
With my high deductible, I'd still come out ahead.....though I'd try my best to fly out of the largest sort of nearby hub to lower costs.....but I also understand that it's a blessing to be so close to the border as I am and I have an advantage over many as to offshoring. Simple geographic luck that I've made the most of over the years. Rob
For you, there in AZ it makes sense. I used to live out there. Mexico is not far away.
Teacher Terry
6-6-16, 5:10pm
Rob, I have read about many retirees going there for their medical when they live in boarder states. I appreciate the offer but had the work done already. A friend of mine flew to Thailand and stayed 2 weeks for a bunch of dental work and it was half the cost of here. I also considered going to Poland where my DIL is from. However, the work I had done was a multiple step process so once you start to calculate a bunch of flights, etc it adds up too. I read up on the procedure and if they didn't use a 3d scanner and used a 2 they could paralyze your face or leave you in chronic pain so in the end I just decided to pay the big bucks-ugh!
iris lilies
6-6-16, 5:19pm
My friend wants me to go with her to Mexico to have one dental implant installed .
If I liked Mexico I might si that, but I dont. Now, there are probably many places in Mexiso I would like if I had a wider exposure to cities, but based on what Ive seen, its not something I want to do, even if she pays for hotel and airfare.
There are a number of Thai students at our medical and dental school in Indianapolis. Met two girls who were in advanced dental practice classes and returning to teach in Thailand. I would not do anything medical that required distance travel from home. Too much chance of the one in a million problem, which could happen here too, and being stuck overseas even with great care.
Teacher Terry
6-6-16, 6:13pm
IL: the one time I was in Mexico I hated it. I wanted to buy a piece of stained glass for my DR and knew exactly what I wanted. So you would go in a store and get badgered so bad you couldn't even shop and look. They didn't speak English so no use in telling them what you were looking for and I like to look myself. The whole shopping experience made me very nervous and I didn't buy a thing. I bought one in San Diego before we left. They would stand outside and practically drag you in a store. Every restaurant would try to get you in. How many times can I eat a day???
Williamsmith
6-6-16, 7:35pm
Try flying from North Dakota.
Well we have nationalized rail. Why not make a dedicated government subsidized airline that flies people all over the third world for scheduled procedures? Why have any private companies at all? If government can do it cheaper and more efficiently with Everyon getting treated equal no matter how productive or non productive you are. Sure would highlight the failure of capitalism.
So in your mind the basis for equality should be productivity? It doesn't get much more capitalistic than that, does it?
Dead peasants don't produce much; thus the insurance. By God, you can even monetize death!
ApatheticNoMore
6-6-16, 7:57pm
Well we have nationalized rail. Why not make a dedicated government subsidized airline that flies people all over the third world for scheduled procedures? Why have any private companies at all?
I think airlines have pretty much been subsidized by government since their inception. This might explain why legally bankrupt airlines continue in business indefinitely. So basically they already are. Government might be better or worse at actually running them (probably worse, but then they are already pretty unpleasant, it's more enjoyable to take Amtrak than to fly at this point). But they are already subsidized. Most (all?) forms of long distance transportation are. But yes it's far more energy efficient to have rail than airlines, so I would rather invest in that.
I think airlines have pretty much been subsidized by government since their inception. This might explain why legally bankrupt airlines continue in business indefinitely. So basically they already are. Government might be better or worse at actually running them (probably worse, but then they are already pretty unpleasant, it's more enjoyable to take Amtrak than to fly at this point). But they are already subsidized. Most (all?) forms of long distance transportation are. But yes it's far more energy efficient to have rail than airlines, so I would rather invest in that.
The problem with the government running the airlines is that they'd run them the same way they do amtrak. With congresspeople insisting that unprofitable routes continue to operate in their districts. On the other hand, perhaps the government would also insist that their pensions be wildly overfunded like they do with the post office, so at least airline employees wouldn't get shafted anymore by failed pension plans.
The problem with the government running the airlines is that they'd run them the same way they do amtrak. With congresspeople insisting that unprofitable routes continue to operate in their districts. On the other hand, perhaps the government would also insist that their pensions be wildly overfunded like they do with the post office, so at least airline employees wouldn't get shafted anymore by failed pension plans.
Why would the feds insist on "wildly overfunding" the USPS pension plan? Are they worried about moral hazard?
Why would the feds insist on "wildly overfunding" the USPS pension plan? Are they worried about moral hazard?
No, it was a burden imposed by the Republican majority. They hate the unionized USPS.
https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/be-careful-what-you-assume
Williamsmith
6-7-16, 11:23am
The postal service pension plan isn't that great. However, I will give big ups to the retired military who then get a second job with the postal service and then retire again. That's getting it done. My state prohibits any retired state employee from a second state job unless of course you want to give up your pension and start over.
No, it was a burden imposed by the Republican majority. They hate the unionized USPS.
https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/be-careful-what-you-assume
So they're funded for about 83% of their obligations, which makes them better off than California (73%) and worse off than Wisconsin (102%). That doesn't sound wildly overfunded to me. I don't think most actuaries would accept the argument that real estate needed for operations should be counted as pension assets.
ToomuchStuff
6-10-16, 12:57am
I was talking about this today with a friend. Since pot based businesses, can't have bank accounts to use (federal laws/drug money laundering), we were wondering how they check that they get a true accounting, and how does the tax money enter the system, and if the fed's could choose to hit that as laundering proceeds?
Since pot based businesses, can't have bank accounts to use (federal laws/drug money laundering), we were wondering how they check that they get a true accounting, and how does the tax money enter the system, and if the fed's could choose to hit that as laundering proceeds?
I really don't know the answer. In Colorado there appears to be strict regulations around product traceability from the grow operations through the retail sales so the businesses basically have to account for everything that goes out the door from start to finish. I guess the risk for mis-use and tax avoidance is partly the fault of the federal government's failure to address the illegal classification of pot even though the law is openly ignored by many states.
I know it's a big hassle for the businesses and any extra time and effort is probably passed along to the consumer, but I have thought it was commendable that businesses could actually operate successfully outside of the banking system. No middleman credit card companies and no bank loans or banking fees. They seem to have found a way to make it work.
Williamsmith
6-10-16, 9:02am
I really don't know the answer. In Colorado there appears to be strict regulations around product traceability from the grow operations through the retail sales so the businesses basically have to account for everything that goes out the door from start to finish. I guess the risk for mis-use and tax avoidance is partly the fault of the federal government's failure to address the illegal classification of pot even though the law is openly ignored by many states.
I know it's a big hassle for the businesses and any extra time and effort is probably passed along to the consumer, but I have thought it was commendable that businesses could actually operate successfully outside of the banking system. No middleman credit card companies and no bank loans or banking fees. They seem to have found a way to make it work.
The black market works wonderfully in a similar manner.
The black market works wonderfully in a similar manner.
A big difference is that the black market doesn't pay taxes. Pot taxes are a huge revenue here and are generally used in a beneficial way, paying for infrastructure improvements, schools, homeless shelters, and recreation centers. I don't know the specifics without looking them up, but the pot business in Colorado is very heavily regulated. One expected off-shoot is actually the elimination of some black markets that truly work under the radar and are tied to drug cartels. I suspect the opportunity for tax evasion in the marijuana business is less than my barber and house remodeler who prefer payment in cash and are under less scrutiny.
There are things I don't like about the Colorado law, but the federal government has been hiding their heads in the sand on this one. While handling more "important issues", like say transgender bathrooms. The war on drugs was a failure.
ToomuchStuff
6-11-16, 9:59am
That will probably depend o n the individual in the black market situation. I would guess not paying taxes on a couple of joints, but with the banking/trafficing laws, and how it is illegal to not pay income taxes on illegal income (Al Capone ring a bell), they still get claimed on federal taxes, but not things such as sales tax.
gimmethesimplelife
6-11-16, 10:54am
A big difference is that the black market doesn't pay taxes. Pot taxes are a huge revenue here and are generally used in a beneficial way, paying for infrastructure improvements, schools, homeless shelters, and recreation centers. I don't know the specifics without looking them up, but the pot business in Colorado is very heavily regulated. One expected off-shoot is actually the elimination of some black markets that truly work under the radar and are tied to drug cartels. I suspect the opportunity for tax evasion in the marijuana business is less than my barber and house remodeler who prefer payment in cash and are under less scrutiny.
There are things I don't like about the Colorado law, but the federal government has been hiding their heads in the sand on this one. While handling more "important issues", like say transgender bathrooms. The war on drugs was a failure.There was an article in the Arizona Republic recently in regards to a tourism industry developing in Colorado around legal marijuana. I find that absolutely fascinating as to me it's such a departure from the failed stormtrooperesque war on drugs. Apparently there are tourist buses that will take you around Denver and you can light up on board.....so different is this approach to the standard US storm trooper approach. You can also get picked up in a limo at DIA and have marijuana pre-ordered and waiting for you and light up in the back of the limo. Being in a state with constant drug drama I find that absolutely incredible. I'm no great believer in marijuana BUT I believe even less in ruining people's lives via arrests for possession of small amounts. I say Colorado is doing something right here. Rob
Local laws here and in Oregon are still pretty punitive--in theory, you can't light up in your rented apartment, or in a park, or anywhere in public--along the lines of draconian smoking laws--and you can't buy the stuff and put it in your purse, along the lines of "open container" legislation--you have to put it in your trunk... In other words, they treat weed like it's worse than both cigarettes and liquor combined, when it most certainly is not. You're limited in how much you can buy or grow, and how many edibles you can buy at once, when you can walk out of a liquor store with gallons of Everclear. I guess that's the power of the liquor lobby at work. Maybe things will improve, but legislators love to legislate and regulators just gotta regulate, so there you go. Wouldn't go back, but it sure makes a person think about Libertarianism.
There was an article in the Arizona Republic recently.... Rob All of that is true, Rob. It seems a little incredible to me, too. Not only is there the tourist attraction, but young people I've talked with tell me they know of other young people who move here primarily because of the legal pot. They have told me there is a bumper sticker going around that says, "get high, get drunk, go home". I suspect there would also be a similar move if single payer insurance passed. It already seems a little crowded here to me. I don't know if it would be a good idea to have retail pot sales in all the states, but it should definitely be decriminalized at the federal level.
gimmethesimplelife
6-11-16, 1:22pm
All of that is true, Rob. It seems a little incredible to me, too. Not only is there the tourist attraction, but young people I've talked with tell me they know of other young people who move here primarily because of the legal pot. They have told me there is a bumper sticker going around that says, "get high, get drunk, go home". I suspect there would also be a similar move if single payer insurance passed. It already seems a little crowded here to me. I don't know if it would be a good idea to have retail pot sales in all the states, but it should definitely be decriminalized at the federal level.Interesting that it should be Colorado stepping up to the plate and conducting social experiments.....I always thought that was the role of blue states such as Massachusetts (with it's state health care system and for being the first state to legalize same sex marriage in 2004). I say more power to Colorado for being willing to take these risks and for waiting to see how these decisions work out. Rob
It is interesting to see the unintended or unexpected consequences of the various changes.
You sometimes see interesting conflicts between state and federal law. Religious freedom statutes, Sanctuary Zones, Bathroom ordinances, pot decriminalization. On the one hand, the feds have the ability to muster superior physical force, withholding funds collected through the income tax, or regulating interstate commerce. On the other, the federal government must rely largely on state and local governments to carry out it's mandates. If there is little appetite for prohibiting alcohol, national speed limits or State health insurance exchanges, the central government may need to back down.
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